A veterinary professional who recently stepped into the role of tech team lead is facing the challenge of earning their team's trust while aligning with the practice owner's vision. In this episode of the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, practice management super nerd, Stephanie Goss is joined by guests Tyler Grogan and Kelsey Beth Carpenter. Join them as they dive into a mailbag letter from a loyal listener who is struggling to transition from being a peer to a leader, especially when they support the direction set by the practice owner. Together, Stephanie, Tyler and Kelsey discuss strategies for balancing team dynamics, maintaining trust, and clear communication. They share insights on establishing expectations, open communication lines, and the importance of setting personal and professional standards to thrive in a new leadership role. Let's get into this episode…
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss: Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast I am joined by my partners in crime on the Uncharted team, the very fabulous and amazing singing vet tech Kelsey Beth Carpenter and the amazingly wonderful ophthalmology gross eyeball nerd,my friend and our aesthetic queen at Uncharted, Tyler Grogan.
Both of them are here with me to answer a mailbag question from a technician who has promoted up from within the team after working themselves through the ranks, earning their LVT, and they are really struggling with feeling like they are standing at the intersection of a team that they know, love, and care about.
And a boss that is asking them to do things that they believe in and not knowing how to do both of those things and make everybody happy. This one was fun. Let's get into it.
Announcer: And now the Uncharted Podcast!
Stephanie Goss:And we are back. It's me, Stephanie Goss, and I am not here with our friend Dr. Andy Roark this week. Instead, I am joined by two of my favorite people in veterinary medicine and two of the most fabulous coworkers on the planet. I am joined by my friends, Tyler Grogan and my friend, Kelsey Beth Carpenter. Welcome to the show, you guys!
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Thank you, Ms. Goss. Except for I do have a question. You did mention Tyler Grogan first. Does that mean she's number one co worker? Is that indicative of your feelings about us? Please expand.
Tyler Grogan: That's how I've interpreted it. Definitely how I've interpreted this. So, thank you so much for having me, Stephanie. I’m so excited to be here.
Stephanie Goss: Tyler. Listen, Kelsey. Tyler has one employee of the month, More times than you. So she gets to go first.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: More times than zero.
Tyler Grogan: I think we can all agree.
Stephanie Goss: No one except for Tyler, Andy and Steph D have ever won it. So.
Tyler Grogan: Stephanie's win was definitely probably the most real because she actually saved your life at the April conference.
Stephanie Goss: She did save my life. So she did deserve it. I don't, I feel like you deserved it at the time. I feel like Andy never deserves it. So let's be fair that there are two actual employee of the months. But no, that's the order you guys are in on my screen. It's like me, Tyler, Kelsey. So no order Kelsey, otherwise I would put you first cause I would have done it alphabetically.
But welcome, welcome to the podcast, you two. For those of you who are not familiar with the work and stylings of the fabulous Kelsey Beth, Kelsey Beth Carpenter. Kelsey, what is your actual, I think of you as the singing vet tech cause when I say Kelsey most people are like, Oh, the singing vet tech.
But like, what's your actual social media handle these days?
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: It is Kelsey Beth Carpenter, not because I care so much about my middle name, but more like if you search Kelsey Carpenter online, you end up getting like a lot of generic white girls and it's hard to tell us apart. So the Beth really helps. But yeah, I like singing, singing vet tech a lot more than like, I, a couple of times I've been referred to as The Dog Ate Weed Girl, and that title…
Stephanie Goss: Yeah.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: doesn't, doesn't have as much of a ring to it, so.
Stephanie Goss: So, for those of you who don't know Kelsey, she is a technician. You were in California, so you are an RVT, correct, exactly, yep.
Okay, so you are a technician and you worked in vet med for how many years as a technician?
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: About ten years. I mean, part of that I was an assistant and then three or four years in got my license. I mostly worked in emergency medicine and a bit of critical care stuff. I also was a lead technician for numerous years. And then I also joined the Dr. Andy Roark and Uncharted teams and got into managing social media and content creation.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah. So Kelsey does the social media and content on our Dr. Andy side. And then Tyler Grogan is also a technician, LVT, RVT?
Tyler Grogan: CVT. I was a CVT and RVT for a minute, but just CVT now.
Stephanie Goss: CVT RVT, all the T's. Tyler Grogan is also a technician. And your experience is on the opposite side of Kelsey's because you did some general practice, but also some specialty med in the eyeball realm, which is extremely disgusting.
Tyler Grogan: You know, more eyes for me. That's all I have to say, but yeah, the eyeballs.
Stephanie Goss: You can have all the eyeballs.
That's great. That's perfect. They're amazing. And for all of you fellow opt owners out there, I see you for sure. So, you're not alone. And I punned on accident, but we're going to say it was intended. But yes, I was in general practice. Mostly I also did some relief work that put me into some emergency practices, but primarily general practice and a few or a year or so in ophthalmology, which was a really fun time.
Stephanie Goss: And Tyler does our social media and marketing. I think of Tyler, I think of Kelsey as the queen of musical and fun things on our team. And I think of Tyler as the queen of everything beautiful because Tyler Tyler is in charge of our style and our aesthetic. If you will, if you need a mood board, Tyler's your girl.
Like that's, she is a master and she's also a master at putting together events because her new role in the company has moved her over to being in charge of all of our live events and fun. As Tyler mentioned, we just had our April conference and a few months ago, and that was a lot of fun.
And that was Tyler's big first jump into the deep end and we've got some stuff coming up at the end of the year. We're about to hit the road and Tyler's going to go on the road with me and Andy and Maria. And we're going to be in, we're going to be in Minneapolis in June talking about conflict, which I'm really excited about.
But the reason you two are here today is because has nothing to do with any of those things. It has to do with one of our virtual events that is coming up. We are doing our Team Lead Summit in September and you two are doing a workshop. And I had this mailbag. question that immediately made me think of you guys for two reasons.
It came from a technician and I really love the perspective and the voice that both of you bring to the Uncharted Community and to the team from, from the technician and the team perspective. But also when I read the mailbag to you guys, Kelsey, you said relatable.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: I could have written this mailbag. I feel like back in the day. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: Right, exactly. So, I thought of you guys and it kind of ties to some of what you're talking about for the team lead summit in the fall.
And so I thought, hey, let's hop on and do a podcast. So, we're going to go through like, like we always will, but you two are in the driver's seat today. So we're going to. We're gonna have some fun. I'm sure there'll be some shenanigans at some point. Okay. So, we got a mailbag and because Andy's not here, I'm actually gonna read the parts because it was written to me.
And I'm gonna, I'm gonna read the parts about how much they love me in the podcast.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Perfect.
Stephanie Goss: Just so he can have a surprise when he listens to this episode so it said, Hey, I, Stephanie, I hope you're doing great as a loyal listener of the podcast. I've been soaking up all the fantastic insights on leadership in the veterinary world.
I'm reaching out because I recently stepped into a new role as the tech team lead after five years on the job. And this is someone who has, been in the practice and actually earned their license while they were working at the same practice. So they've been in the same place for a while. They know their team really well.
And they said, you know, I'm having a lot of fun, but I'm really kind of struggling getting the team on board with some of the direction that the practice owner wants to go in because I'm also trying to earn their trust. Cause now I'm no longer a member of the team. I kind of have to be the boss and the leader on the floor every day.
And I'm struggling with that intersection. It sounds like they're struggling with that intersection of loving their peers and having had a longstanding relationship with their peers and being in a new role where they want to succeed. And in this case they were like, you know, I actually really agree with the direction we're trying to go in and I really support it.
And I'm struggling with how to express that to my teammates without it coming across as I'm just going to do whatever the practice owner tells me to do, right? And so, you, we, when I was telling you guys about it, you were like, okay, yeah, I think all three of us felt like we could have, we could very easily put ourselves in this writer's shoes.
So they said, Hey, any help would you have any tips? Or strategies for making this transition smoother would be great. They said, P. S. your expertise and discussions on the podcast have been incredibly helpful. So I, you know, I appreciate that feedback. So we're going to keep up the amazing work with the podcast by getting you two to dive in as we do.
Do you guys want to start with Headspace?
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Totally. Actually, can I put a plug in here?
Stephanie Goss: Yes.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Okay, this is a genuine plug. I mean, I am a biased speaker, but I keep telling people about the Uncharted Academy Leadership Essentials Certificate because we all did it as a team, recently completed it, and it was, I kept saying throughout every single module, if I had had this course when I became a lead tech, my experience as a lead tech would have been a thousand times different and so much more positive because it covers so much of what you need.
And I feel like this is often a place that many of us, especially as technicians in a middle management kind of role, get into where we've worked so hard. We've worked our way up. We finally get this, you know, great new position. We're so excited. We're so excited. We're so passionate. But we've not been handed any of the training or tools to actually now be effective in this position.
And so just a genuine plug, I've, I've already told two of my friends who are tech leaders about this course. It's what I wish I had when I became a lead tech. So just had to put it, I had to mention it.
Stephanie Goss: I love that. I love that. And also, I love it because it was really fun going through it as a team. And I think even though we're not looking at it from the practice perspective, the insights and the just the conversation about how you approach things as a leader was a lot of fun. I feel like we learned a lot about each other and kind of how we look at the business and what we're doing and how we serve our clients who are people who are in practice, you know, and struggling with, you know, with things in practice every, every day.
So I love that. And I want to pick out something Kelsey, that you said there about being the technician, which is, I think it's really hard to struggle with being put into a role where for a lot of us, we, and this was, I say us, because this was the case for me. I was put into the role of being a manager because I was really good as a CSR and there are skills that are transferable there. Right? Like the speak, the customer service, the people skills, it was like, Hey, you're an excellent CSR. Why don't you be in charge of the front desk? And it was like, just jump in and, swim. and there was no actual like leadership training or development plan. It was just kind of like, Hey, you're really great at this job.
So why don't you do this job instead? And so I think for a lot of us, we, we found ourselves in that place that you, you said, Kelsey, which is like, Okay, I'm really kind of excited because I want to grow and I want to develop, but how the hell do I do that? Like what does that look?
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Right, and, and like you said, a lot of us get into a position, a leadership position because we're so good at doing the job we were already doing. We're really good doers. But And a lot of the trap that many of us, or at least myself, fall into when we then go into a leadership position is let me just keep doing all the things but Tyler and I are actually doing a workshop at the Team Lead Summit on sort of how you can shift away from that a little, a little bit and actually start to kind of coach your team to do the things themselves.
But I'll stop taking over the microphone. I know Tyler had some really good points about how, sort of like when you're first starting out, you've just gotten this position. Congratulations, by the way, incredible work. You have to be an amazing person to get a role like this. But then sort of like what's, there's a little bit of self reflection that has to happen, I think.
Tyler Grogan: Yeah, absolutely. So, You know, it's interesting. Most of my career was spent within a team rather than leading a team. It was much later as a technician that I would take a training type of role on but I think from the beginning, stepping into this type of role, there's a couple things that, from a Headspace perspective, you have to realize.
Like, number one, like Kelsey said, you're amazing. This means you're doing a great job. And what do you want out of this? You know, like, you can step into this role and kind of let you're going to have expectations that need to be met by your leaders, by your managers, you know, what they hope to get out of having you in this new role, you know, whether it's, you know, Helping to train up the rest of the team to be able to do the job in the way that you're doing it, whether it's to make sure that things are getting done in a certain way or implement changes that they'd like to make happen in the practice.
You know, they're going to have their goals and expectations for you for this role, but also what do you want to get out of this role? Like what, how do you want to step into this and, and how do you want to approach it? And I think that from a Headspace perspective. The first time I was put into a position where I actually had some type of title that gave me, you know, like, okay, I'm going to go in here and they're expecting things out of me.
The team now is expecting certain things out of me and how I, how I show up really matters here. You kind of forget that while you're doing the job, you're, you're leading from within to, you know, you've got, you've got already buy in. You've got people that support you and people that are your teammates.
And that actually is an even better way to be set up for success being put into a leadership role because you've got people that want to see you succeed. And so, you know, you've got the expectations from your manager. You've got the things that you'd like to get out of your role, but you also have a team that if you've worked there for five years, getting your licensure and, you know, moving up and, and learning from, and with them, they have, there you have people around you that want to see you do a great job.
And so stepping into that with that kind of mindset, you know, I think that that really can make a big difference in. Okay, I have a lot of trust built up with these people already in a lot of ways, and this is a different, these are different asks I'm going to be putting positions that I'm going to be asking things of them in different ways, but you've already been doing a lot of what you're going to be doing.
Just with a title behind it, and maybe just not actually doing all the time, but giving people the opportunity to learn from you how that you've maybe approached this in the past that has gotten you to where you are today. So you have a lot of opportunity here to do a lot of fun things, and I think that it's easy to get kind of caught up in, are they gonna listen to me?
Do they care what I have to say? Are they gonna have a hard time when I'm the one that asks them to do something that they don't necessarily want to do or maybe buy into an idea that they don't believe in? But there's also so much opportunity here to have fun and to grow and to learn. So stepping in and thinking about those things from the beginning, you know, what do you want out of this?
Because you can do a lot. You can do more than just kind of step in and enforce the rules. So I think that that's a really important place to start.
Stephanie Goss: Okay, I love that you said that because there's so much to unpack there and the piece that I want to start with is your idea about assuming a positive headspace around being from within the team, because I think, I think all three of us immediately looked at this and went, okay, this, we resonate with this because it is hard.
There are challenges that come with being from within the team and being homegrown and having the people having everybody know you. And I didn't think about it until you said that. And it's so powerful that it actually is a positive. thing. Like you have the five years of working together with the team built up in your trust bank with them.
You know, you've been friends, you've gotten each other coffee. You've been there to hold the dog that is just absolutely losing its mind and shaking its bloody hematoma ear all over the treatment room. And everybody's covered in blood and anal glands. Like you've been there for those moments. And that matters.
And it's really easy to, especially when you're scared and you're nervous because you want to do a good job. And to your point, Tyler, you want to grow and develop yourself. It's really easy when you're scared, I think, to get into that headspace of focusing on The challenges more so than the positives.
And so I love your point about if we flip this around and if we look at it from the positive perspective, we have five years of teamwork to draw on from the perspective of asking the team to help you continue to grow and develop. It doesn't have to be the it doesn't have to be the opposite side of that, which is.
Great. Now I'm their boss. There are going to be those moments because that's part of, I think for me, that's the piece of Headspace that, that I was going to share was like, There are going to be moments where you have to tell someone something they don't want to hear, where you have to deliver bad news, where you have to tell someone no.
And those things are big and scary and, and you will get through them. Everyone gets through them and they will be big and scary and they will make your palms sweat. The reality is like you get through them and thinking about it from the perspective of, Hey, I. Care about you guys and I want to grow and develop and I want to grow and develop you and that is something positive that I can use that trust bank matters because I've been on the flip side of that where.
I have the experience and I, shortly after I had become a manager, it was in my clinic that I first promoted at my very first clinic. And then I had only been a manager for maybe a year and I moved to a new clinic. I got married and I moved to like towns and moved to a new and I stepped into the role still relatively new to Being a manager, but now not only did I have to figure it out as a new manager, but I had to figure it out as a new manager with a new team that I didn't have any trust built up with.
And let me tell you, on the flip side of that, it is a much steeper mountain to climb to be like, hi, I'm new at this job. And also I now have to build up some trust with these people that I've just met and have no reason to trust me when I say, let me help you hold this. You know, flailing dog in the treatment room.
We haven't been in those positions together. And so they have no reason to, to believe me when I say I can do this by myself, or I can help you with that. Like, let's try it a different way. You have to build up that everyday trust. Even just in those technical positions, let alone in the positions of asking them to go out on a limb and do something that they might not want to do, or that they might, there might be resistance to, so I, I love that.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: It is a very unique challenge instead of you needing to earn trust because you've already earned the trust from not only your team, but also your manager. They've trusted you enough to put you in this position. You've got the unique challenge of maintaining trust. And I think that's something I failed with when I was a lead technician, is that I jumped right in.
I wanted to get everything done. And in the beginning, people trusted me because we had worked hand in hand for a very long time. But at some point I had asked so much of my team with so little communication around it that I started burning away that trust. And, and that's what can happen, I think, as long as you remain open and transparent and you keep those open lines of communication not only with your boss but also with your team.
I think that's a huge part of maintaining the trust you've already built.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah. I love that. I think one of the pieces. And I think one of the things that relates to Kelsey that you kind of, pointed out is that there, that is that you, you are going to learn and grow and you are going to burn some trust, like you're going to make mistakes and you're going to screw some things up.
And so you have to have that trust built up to be able to make the mistakes and have it, have it happen. And how you deal with that and how you come back to the team and how you own up to that. If it's just like, well, I'm better than you or I'm per, I'm, you know, it doesn't matter that I screwed up because I have more experience or whatever.
If you, I, I've worked with people who have that kind of their noses, you know, up in the air, they're better than, they're better than, than you. Like, I think at some point we've all worked with one of those people and, and it's really, really frustrating because it's like, what? What makes you exempt from having to do this?
You know, it's like the leader or the manager who will give everybody else and this, this is a, we've gotten mailbags about, this is a really common scenario where you have somebody who has, and it happens a lot with new leaders and it's a, I think it's a growth and a personal emotional intelligence thing, but where you have someone who is like, oh, well I'm the, the, leader.
I'm the, I'm in a position of power. So I'm going to take all the quote unquote, fun jobs, especially as a technician. Like I'm going to be in surgery, or I'm going to, you know, put the catheter in, you guys are going to go clean up room three, or you're going to go scrub out the kennels of the dog that just had diarrhea.
Like every, look, poop happens in the clinic, right?
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: That's the PG version.
Tyler Grogan: Poop and all kinds of other things.
Stephanie Goss: Poop happens. Listen, I told Andy I would stop trying to swear a little bit on the podcast, or at least so we didn't have to put the swearing disclaimer all the time. But poops, poops happens and that sucks. Like I've been on, I've been on both sides of that.
I've been on the side of the person who's getting asked to do this stuff and not getting the growth because what that turns into is it might in the moment be like a, I feel like I have more experience to do this thing. So I'm going to ask you to do this thing instead. And it's totally innocent. There's no thought behind it when it continues to happen, what happens is that the person who's being asked to do all those other things, they're in the position where they are no longer getting growth opportunities. They're no longer being able to stretch. They're no longer able to try new things.
And that's a really crappy position to be in. And I've also been on the flip side where it's like, Oh, I don't have to do that thing anymore and I'm going to be really honest and vulnerable and say like there were moments where I was not a nice person to my team because I was like, Oh, I'm the boss.
I don't have to do that crap anymore. Like you're going to go. You're going to go and do that. Right? And, and I think I didn't do it a lot, but I would be lying if I didn't say that there were moments where not like super intentionally, but just where it was like, Oh, I don't have to say yes to doing that anymore.
I can take the sweet thing and everybody else can just do, do the other thing. So I think that that's both recognizing that both sides of that happen. And I think you have to be open to knowing that you're going to learn and grow. And part of that learning and growing is that it will never be perfect and you will screw it up and you will make mistakes.
And so from a Headspace perspective, I think it's really, really important to. Get okay with that on a personal level and like acknowledge the fact that to become a really good leader It takes the ability to say to your team. Hey, I was a dick earlier today Like I didn't you know Like I've been thinking about it and I shouldn't I should have been right there in that kennel cleaning up the diarrhea with you If that wasn't cool, and I'm sorry And I, you know, in the future, like I will absolutely help with if you really need help, like getting in there and being willing to do anything that you're asking your teammates to do is a really important part of being a leader.
But I think that from that headspace perspective, recognizing that you're going to make mistakes and you're going to screw it up and how well your team receives those mistakes and how well they let you keep some trust in Trust Bank, even when you make a mistake. That is measured by how willing you are to be vulnerable and acknowledge and be honest with them and say, “Hey, I, I screwed that, that one up”
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Preach, sister.
I think that is a it kind of goes hand in hand with sort of, expectations, like that's something I wish I had done better of when I first became a lead technician is understanding what was expected of me, both from the perspective of my manager or leader and my team and as Tyler touched on, what I wanted, what I expected from the position because I think that goes a long way in the trust and communication as well is that.
If I am asking you guys to clean these exam rooms and get these next patients in, why am I not doing it with you this time? And if my team If I've been transparent with them and I've been able to express to them. Here's what my manager is expecting of me. What do you expect of me? And here's what I expect of the position. Then they will have an easier time of understanding what I can't always be in there cleaning up the poop that happens if they can understand what I'm doing and I think that was another mistake I made, was not being transparent enough about what was expected from my position.
So for example, if I'm sitting at the computer and I ask Tyler, Hey, can you go help restrain that dog for that blood draw? That's kind of not a fun ask because why am I not getting up to do it? You know, it makes it, it creates this sort of otherness of, well, I'm a lead now, so I need you to do it. Whereas if I say, Tyler, I'm trying to work on the schedule, it's expected to be done by Friday.
Would you mind helping with that blood draw so I can stay here at the computer? That's a very different ask, right? Because now Tyler understands why is it important for her energy to be expended in that way so that I can expend my energy in another way that's still serving the team. It's not a self serving thing.
And so that's something I wish I had, I had done better in my position as a lead tech is communicating, the whys behind things, but also just like establishing in the beginning what were the expectations from all the different perspectives, you know?
Stephanie Goss: hmm. Mm hmm. Tyler, you looked like you were going to say something.
Tyler Grogan: I was just going to say, just something that you were touching on there, Kelsey, is about just the open lines of communication. You know, it's easy to one mistake that I, or something that I, a development point that I had in practice as a technician, as I was learning, and even just coming into a team, having a license where you haven't worked before can set some types of expectations of what are you able to do?
And what is your level of experience? I tended to not communicate very much at all. I would kind of isolate and just try to get the work done and not really explain very well, you know, like, okay, this is, you know, I'm doing this because I feel like this is where I'm best utilized here, or just opening up lines of communication can be the hardest part of, I think, working within a team at all, but then taking a role where.
Those expectations can, and the perspectives of what you're doing can come off in very different ways if you're not very good at communicating what you're doing. Kelsey's example was fantastic. The reason I'm sitting at the computer is because I'm doing something that we all need to have happen.
And I'm expected as this role to have this done on a certain timeline. So it would be helpful for me if you could help with this piece, because that's where I think like, because I need to get this done. So opening up those lines of communications and just being really honest, I think can make such a big impact.
And it can be kind of scary. But when you're moving into something like our listener wrote about where you're asking for people to buy into a vision of your practice leader that you're kind of being given to implement and move forward with. Understanding the whys of those things happening and being able to explain them clearly can be such a tool to get the buy in from the team, but also to explain, you know, give them the opportunity to come to you and say, this is why I don't think this is working, or this is why.
I don't think I want to go forward with this or for, or whatever. So starting with the small things and having the perspective of the things you do have a reason. I'm not just being asked to do cleaning the rooms because you're sitting at the computer and don't want to. Or I'm not being asked to start talking about this new medication because, of a reason I don't understand, there's a reason.
And so, you know, opening up those lines of communications from the beginning, I think is just really, really important. And Kelsey's description of how to do that was, you know, it can come off so different just depending on how you frame it. So I think that that was a great
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Well, and keeping them open to like continuing to revisit those lines of communication. I think that was another thing that I misunderstood going into a leadership role was that I felt I needed to fix all the problems when in reality, I think as a leader, you're less of a boss and more of a facilitator.
So I think it's very appropriate to come to a team meeting and say, I'm really having a hard time getting the schedule done on time. And I know how important this schedule is to our team because we need to be staffed, you know, at all times, 24 seven around the clock. Do you guys have any ideas of ways that I can still be helpful to you on the floor but still have time to get the schedule done?
And when it becomes a collaborative process like that, I think that also helps with buy in as well. If Tyler comes and says like, you know, I'm supposed to be working on this leadership course, to improve myself as a leader can you guys help me figure out how I can do that without you feeling abandoned on the floor?
I'm going to feel a lot more motivated to say, oh, I think that's awesome that you're doing that and you're going to help us in turn. I'll take something off your plate. What can I do? You know, it becomes a more collaborative process rather than a top down process.
Stephanie Goss: Well, it leans back into that coworker dynamic, you know, versus the, I'm going to pull the string or the lever, the lever of power. There's something Tyler that you said that I want to end our headspace on because Kelsey already pulled out one of the great action steps.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Sorry.
Stephanie Goss: important to start with.
You're good. You're good. So we're going to, I want to wrap this up and then we'll take a quick, take a quick break and come back and dive into action steps. But Tyler, you were talking about the lines of communication. You talked really, really nicely and put it really nicely about keeping it open with the team.
And I think it's equally important to have really good, to develop really good lines of communication with your boss. Because as a, as a middle leader, you are by very definition in the middle.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Stephanie Goss: And so if you can't, if you can't ask your boss for help, if you can't figure out how to communicate With them, the needs of the team, the wants of the teams, the why of what is happening on the floor day to day, because the reality is they put someone in that position because they can't be everywhere all at once.
And so any middle level leader, by default, is kind of there because they are the practice leader by proxy, really, right? Like, sometimes you're asked to be the eyes and ears, sometimes you're asked to be the spy, sometimes you're asked to be a part of the team, sometimes you're asked to be, you know, the boss, it varies from position to position and day to day, but the reality is you are working you know, across the ladder, you're working with your boss and you're also working with the team.
And so I think the ability to communicate needs and the asks and the desires of the team and ask your boss for help and advocate for the team as you do it, is a really really important skill and I've worked with a lot of leaders who have come to me as the manager or practice administrator or practice owner and have said this is what the team is mad about and just dumped it like a monkey and let it loose in my office.
Like, here you go, figure out what to do with this monkey that's now on your bookshelf flinging poop.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: That created a great visual in my head.
Stephanie Goss: Great. That's what I was going for. But like, seriously, it's, it gets dumped in your lap. And as a leader, that. is the fastest way for me to doubt my judgment of placing you in the position because I believed in you and I believed in the ability for you to problem solve, even though for a lot of us, we got promoted, not because we had these skills or we had been taught these specific skills, but because we were really, really good at another job.
And this is where those gaps come in. And Kelsey, I'm glad that you, you know, mentioned the leadership essentials, because I do think that we have to do work. And for a lot of us, it happens on our own, unfortunately, but it's a really easy ask to say, Hey, boss lady, I know of this. RACE approved CE course where I could get some, you know, education, could I do this, right?
There's lots of resources out there to develop these skills, but it is very important to be able to have the conversation with your boss and not let the monkey. loose in their office. Instead, to your point, Kelsey, in terms of giving examples, when you go to your boss and you're like, Hey, I've had some one on ones with the team.
And I have checked in with everybody about how they're feeling. And there are some concerns that I feel like are really valid. And I would like to talk about those concerns with you and kind of go through the team's ideas, some of the ideas I had, and then maybe get your help with some ideas you might have for how we can overcome this problem.
That feels radically different than I talked to the team. They're all irritated about this problem.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Here's the monkey. Here's the poop.
Stephanie Goss: Here’s the monkey.
Tyler Grogan: Good luck with the poo.
Stephanie Goss: It's always, always the poo. I mean, there's three technicians involved in this. Like, what can I say? So, so being able to like ask, ask for help of your boss in a, in a, on behalf of the team, but also on behalf of yourself to be able to recognize and acknowledge like, maybe I don't have the skill set.
Maybe you're being asked to do something you don't feel prepared for. You don't feel confident in and you have to speak up because you will never be able to swim in that deep end if you don't put your hand out of the water and say, Hey, help. Hi, help me before you go down. Right? Like that is really, really important.
And being able to being able to do that as a necessary skill. Let's take a quick break and then let's come back and talk about action steps. Does that work?
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Sounds great.
Tyler Grogan: Sounds Good.
Stephanie Goss: All right, so let's dive into action steps. We talked about the headspace perspective.
We talked about being able to have some self reflection, being able to have open lines of communication both with the team and with your boss. We talked about being open to the idea that you're learning and growing and you will screw it up. Many other things.
So let's, let's talk about the action steps for this leader because stepping into that place where you're trying to earn your team's trust and you know, support the vision that your boss has, like that's a, that's a hard, hard place to be cause it involves some balance. And I want to start Kelsey with something that you already called out and you were talking about knowing the expectations for yourself from your boss, the expectations from your team and the expectations for yourself. And I think all of those things are great.
And besides asking, what does your handbook say? My other favorite thing to ask is, what does your job description say? So, I think if you're this person and you don't actually have a, like the job description is where you should start because the point of a job description is to help set expectations in writing.
And so I think starting there and saying, Okay, do you, do you have a job description? If the answer is no, that's a really easy place to start because it's easy to say, Hey, I just want to know that I am, you know, I just want to understand what's expected of me. Can we sit down and put together some kind of a job description so I know what you want me to do, how you might want me to accomplish it so that I can be really aware of what your needs are?
And also so that I can help communicate with the team and help them understand what you're asking of me, because I am going to have to shift. I'm no longer going to be their side by side technician all day long. If you are also asking me to do things like you know, the team schedule, like you said, Kelsey, or the doctor schedule or inventory or whatever the other duties are that a lead is doing that the rest of the team is not.
You cannot do those things and also work 40 hours a week on the floor.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Even though we all think we can going into it.
Stephanie Goss: Yes.
Tyler Grogan: We can do all of the things, especially technicians. We, we have eight arms, right?
Stephanie Goss: No, no, no, no, no.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: No, I, something you just said, Stephanie, also made me think about you know, well, first of all, just how incredibly common it is to be put in one of these positions and not have a job description. So yes, I think, I think that is a fantastic point. Start there. Also the other thing I think is interesting is that you don't have to go about this job the way you've seen it done.
I think that was another trap that I fell into is that there were other lead technicians in my hospital and they were doing things a certain way and I sort of fell in step with that. But I think, you know, going back to your headspace, what you want from the job, what the expectations are, You can go about a different way.
Tyler and I are gonna be doing a whole workshop on how to become a coach instead of a ref. I've seen a lot of reffing. You get, you get told you need to control the cell phone use, you need to make sure people are clocking in on time. You need make sure people are taking their lunches. And you very quickly fall into a, a referee position of don't do that, do that.
Whereas you can actually approach it in more of a coach position. How do I coach my team or be coached along with my team to make this happen collaboratively? So that was something I wish I would have seen a different perspective on myself is just I don't need to do this job the exact same way someone else has already done it.
Stephanie Goss: I love that.
Tyler Grogan: Yeah. That definitely goes back to kind of what we said earlier about just the expectations in general and knowing what your boss's expectations are, what your expectations are, and what your team's expectations are can help set you up to succeed so that, you know, what everyone needs out of where you are.
You can develop if you don't have a job description, you have the opportunity to step back and say, how do I want to approach this? And then have that conversation with the team and have that conversation with your boss and say, this is how I would like to approach this role. These are the reasons why can I try it and let's see how it goes?
And then that way you have, again, kind of opened up those lines of communication to say, this is how I see me taking this on and also meeting the expectations that you guys need from me as well. So, yeah, I think that that's a really good point. And yeah, The roughing versus coaching is a definitely a good example of kind of stepping into a leadership position with, you know, one side of what you need to accomplish in mind versus looking at it from a perspective.
How can I feel fulfilled in this? Where are my opportunities here to you? So, shifting that perspective can definitely help. Yeah, going back to the expectations and just really being clear from the beginning. That's a really, I think, a really good action step. And if you don't have a job description, you've got some opportunity to develop how you want to approach this.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: We we were chatting a little bit before this, and I know Tyler and I have talked a lot about this topic as well, and one of my favorite things that Dr. Andy Roark actually covered in the Leadership Essentials course was the five fold why, which is essentially continuing, it's essentially being like a, a three year old and just asking why continuously until you get..
Stephanie Goss: Right?
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: to the ultimate answer, and that's something I think I'd be very I think it's really useful early on, especially in aligning those expectations and figuring out what it is that people want and how you're going to make it happen so that everyone's happy or as happy as can be.
And for me, I think it used to feel like, you know, Gosh, you know, my boss is asking this of me, whereas my teammates are asking this of me and they're completely different things and I can't stretch myself far enough to accomplish all of them. So what am I going to do? And so then I just dropped the monkey in Stephanie Goss office, you know?
But now with this, this sort of five fold why perspective, I think if I was going back and I was in a team lead position, I would say, how do I ask why to my boss? And I think ultimately, in pretty much any hospital, any place, any team we all have essentially the same goals, which is going to be taking the best care of patients that we can, making sure we have happy fulfilled, educated clients, making sure that our doctors are supported as they need to be making sure we're getting out of work on time, we're taking our lunches, that we're getting paid, all of these things.
I think we all have essentially the same goals, we're just coming at it from different places. So while the boss may be asking me to say make sure the team isn't using their cell phones on the floor and my team is saying, Well, the doctors get to use our cell phones. How come we can't use our cell phones?
I think ultimately, really the goal there is, we don't want to be distracting ourselves with cell phone use or appearing unprofessional in front of clients. That's something that everyone can get on board with, for sure.
But when it's just, we don't want you using your cell phones on the floor, that's very different, right? And so if you continue..
Stephanie Goss: yeah, you feel pleads
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: yeah, if you can continue to ask why until you get to that sort of base level, why don't you want our team using cell phones on the floor? Why, why, why, until you get to. Well, I don't want clients to see it and think that we're not paying attention to their pets. Now I come back to my team and they're saying, well, we want to use our cell phones.
Well, what do we think that looks like to the clients when they walk by and they've been waiting an hour, but they see that we're on our cell phones or, you know, that's something that people can really relate to. And now we're achieving the ultimate goal. So I really love that idea of just continuing to ask why until you find that middle mark that we can all agree on.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah, I love that. Tyler, what do you think if you, if you had to give your number one action step for someone standing in this leader's shoes at this intersection between wanting to be, you know, a part of the team that you've been a part of for five years and also stepping into the leadership role.
What would be your number one action step?
Tyler Grogan: It comes down to remembering the fact that you know your team really well. I think it comes down to sometimes you're going to be asking and sometimes you still should be alongside doing things with them. And You know, let them take the lead sometimes just because you're the lead now and that's your title like remember that you have teammates that are super strong at cat handling and they are going to be really excited when they get to handle that fractious cat that comes in and they just need some help, you know. Remembering to step back sometimes too so that they still feel like you respect them as well because I think you're still it's easy to forget that you're still a part of the team and you know, they have their strengths, and you have yours, and you've been put in this role that they're going to want to see you succeed in, and you're going to be asking them things, and you're going to be trying new things, and they're going to be trusting you along the way, and also showing that you trust them, too, and continuing to let them shine, and give them opportunities.
I think that that's important. And it just continues to foster that trust that already exists. Especially for the person writing into the mailbag that, you know, you're working with your team still. This is, these are your people. They know you, you know them. So continuing to find that balance between, you know, stepping up and stepping back I think is really important and knowing that it's okay to not know it all.
And it's okay to have moments where you feel like you're making mistakes because they're going to ultimately want to see you do a great job. And if they know that you want the same for them, then, you know, you're only going to find fulfillment in being able to move forward, I think, in your team with this way.
So, that I think is, is the biggest action step, just, you know, knowing that you're still part of the team and letting, you know, them have their moments to shine and learn and grow with you too. It's going to make a big difference and your leaders, your leaders will see that as well. So,
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: I don't want to be on podcasts with Tyler Grogan anymore because everything she says is so poetically perfect. It's very difficult to follow. So can you please invite us separately next time?
Tyler Grogan: Listen Kelsey, I was sitting here thinking the same exact thing about you. So, just, you know, I was like, Kelsey has all these fantastic examples and Stephanie has all these great examples. What? But thank you, that's very nice of you to say.
Stephanie Goss: I was going to say now Tyler's bright red. Okay. Kelsey Beth Carpenter. Now you're now it's your turn to shine because you always do. If you, if you were going to be in that position, you've said multiple times in this podcast, like if you could go back and be that you know, younger Kelsey, I mean, you're young, let's be real.
You're still a baby, but if you could be baby, baby Kelsey and step back into those shoes and say, Hey, I'm a new leader. Like what is the, from an action set perspective, what is the thing that you would do that you feel like would have changed that for you?
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: A combination between what we've talked about with expectations. I never did that. I did not have a job description. I was just supposed to sort of jump in with that and I also, I made a lot of assumptions about what the team would want because I had been part of the team without considering the fact that they could be having very different perspectives than me.
And I think that might be one of the biggest things I would do differently is talking to the team more about their ideas and what they want. They want and need and hope for instead of just assuming I know because I've worked alongside them for so many years and I know them really well.
Stephanie Goss: What does that, what does that look like? Like, how do you, how do you think that from, from an action set perspective. How you think that plays out? Do you talk to them? Like as a group, do you go out for drinks? Do you like sit down with them one on one behind a desk? Like what does that look like? Yeah.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: I mean, I’ve never met a basket of chips and salsa I didn't like. So, that would facilitate some great conversation. But I think realistically, these are things we don't have a ton of time for, right? These kind of conversations have to happen very efficiently and effectively. I, I think in the very beginning, a team meeting, Would be fantastic just the ability to all be in the room together and be experiencing the same thing But I think individual check ins when you have time when you've just finished an ultrasound and you're cleaning up the room together Hey you know, how are things going for you?
What do you think is our number one thing that you wish we could work on in our department right now? Little check-ins like that. I think are like super valuable and those are the things we do have time for in our day It's a way bigger to commit to like huge meetings, but you can still get really valuable information out of those little one on ones.
Stephanie Goss: I love that. I love that. And I, I think that is I always tried to put myself in the position of helping them do the things that I knew I wasn't good at, because then I could listen more. Like, it wasn't like I was trying to control the situation as a teacher. as a tech. And so for me, I've talked about it on the podcast.
I, I hate, hate, hate, hate. Sorry, Tasha McNerney. I hate anesthesia with all of my heart. And I was a terrible surgery technician because I had anxiety through the roof. And so I would always say, Hey, why don't I just be the second, like, why don't I be the second assistant and I'll clean the room?
I'll do that. I'll do the grunt work around surgery that nobody else wants to do. And also it gave me a lot of opportunity to talk to the team because I wasn't, I wasn't in that position where I'm focusing solely on the patient's care. And when you get a patient that is stable and you, obviously you're not talking if things are not going well, but you know, it gave me the opportunity to have that flex time, Kelsey, like you were talking about cleaning up, getting ready to put another patient under anesthesia, where I could say, Hey, how's it going?
Like, you know what? I love your question of what's the thing you think that we could work on right now? Because I think that that opens the door to “Don't give me a laundry list.” Don't release the monkeys in my office. Like what's one thing that we could do right now that would make a difference for you? I love that question. I think, that circles me too. For me, my action step would be recognizing that leadership requires compromise always. And so I think being willing to compromise In all three directions, recognizing that you are going to have to compromise with the team. Like there are going to be times where you cannot make them happy and you cannot be all things to all people.
And so sometimes that means doing things that they want to do that you do not want to do. And sometimes it means telling them we're going to do things that they don't want to do. And it also means being willing to compromise with your boss. And sometimes it means going along with things that you don't agree with.
And part of being a leader is being willing to step up in front of the team and have a united face. And I don't just mean in the team meeting and then you're crap talking the boss's decision as soon as the meeting is over and they're out of the room. I mean, you are standing up and saying, this is what we have decided to do.
And I'm totally on board with it. And here's how we're going to attempt it. Right? Sometimes it means compromising and doing those things that you don't want to do. And sometimes it means asking your boss for the compromise and saying, hey, this really matters. Like I really think that this is going to impact the team and maybe not in such a great way.
And I really, I really just want to make sure that you hear me. And then I think the third piece of that has been willing to compromise with yourself and to Tyler, to your point, recognizing that you're going to learn and grow and stretch and develop in so many different ways. And that you have to be willing to accept that growth good and bad, painful and happy, you know, happy. And you also have to be willing to accept that you're not always going to be perfect in this role. You're going to screw it up. You're going to make mistakes. And also you're not always going to get to do the things that you want to do anymore.
In fact, I would argue, you probably are going to get to do more of the things that maybe you don't necessarily want to do because there's a level of trust and empowerment and belief in you being able to do the job. And so I think you know, recognizing that your position now means you're going to have to compromise more than ever to be successful. And I think that if you can get into a headspace where you recognize that and be able to put that into action and really be willing to step up and say to the team, hey, you know, I got you.
Like, I don't necessarily agree with this, but if you all feel really strongly about it, I will absolutely bring it to the leadership team meeting and our, you know, and, and present the argument on your behalf. Cause I, you know, I want you guys to be happy and I want to support you. So I think that that compromise is probably mine.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: I think.
Stephanie Goss: All, all around.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: I'm just going to say one somewhat divisive thing, and I want both of your opinions on it too, but I got some kind of intense advice when I first became a lead tech of people telling me, you can't be friends with these people anymore. You might have been friends with them before, but now that you're a lead, you cannot be friends with them.
People telling me that I should keep certain things to myself that I shouldn't be completely transparent about some things that that that my peers would judge me or they wouldn't respect me as a leader if I did that And at the time I had not really had a good example that I had seen of someone being a leader and still maintaining that camaraderie that friendship that positive mentality like I hadn't really seen it done. Now at this point in my life.
I say screw it to that advice. I actually think it's very possible to still have that same positive friendly relationship with your team even in a leadership position. I think it is a lot more difficult and complicated, but I think with all the things we've talked about with establishing expectations, being a bit vulnerable, and a grower, and a learner all these things kind of add up to make it, I, I think it's possible. I, I'm really curious what you both think about that.
Stephanie Goss: Kelsey, that's like a whole other podcast episode.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: Okay, whoops, sorry. Just trying to get myself invited back.
Tyler Grogan: That's exactly what I saw there. She was like, I'm coming back for around two to answer as quickly as possible. I, it, it kind of goes off of what I think where maybe you're, I don't know, I could be wrong, but Kelsey, I think I know where you were going in your head and what Stephanie was saying and how you got to this question.
I think it's a lot easier to assume good intent to quote Stephanie and Andy from this podcast to assume good intent of people that you have those personal, more personal type of relationships with, you know, and I don't think that you can just throw, personally, I don't think that you can throw away, you know, years of friendship with people as your coworkers and stop just because you've taken on a title, and I think that, that actually says a lot more, to try to throw that away than not to.
I think boundaries are, you know, boundaries between your coworkers and in your personal life are going to be yours and personal and, you know, wherever you choose to take them and those may shift, but I think it's easier to assume good intent of people that, you know, they're not going to change and become this other person because they took on a new title.
So to me, I think it's possible. And I think it's probably kind of important not to try to make a complete shift, but Stephanie goth might have a completely different opinion.
Stephanie Goss: I think no, I mean, yes and no. I agree with Kelsey's assessment. I think that the person who gave you that advice was very misguided because I really believe that a leader always cares. A True leader always cares about their people. And if you care about someone, there is always a relationship to some degree.
There's always context for that caring and a leader learns how to use boundaries. And so Tyler, you hit it for me right there, which is that. For some people, those boundaries are going to look different. Some people are going to have to put up the boundaries that say, I can care about my team. I can show them warmth.
I can show them kindness. I can show them empathy. I can show them friendliness. That doesn't mean that I have to have, that mean, that doesn't mean that I cannot have a very wall of China boundary between my personal life and my team. That's, that's, that's perfectly okay. You can still do all of those things.
That is caring, that is not friendship, and there's a very, there's a very big, difference there. And so I think that is a really, I can totally understand the headspace that that person came from, because I think I went down that rabbit hole of feeling like I couldn't be friends with people. And I, I, agree with you now and where I'm at in my journey, Kelsey, I absolutely believe that you can be friends with your team.
And even really good, like, you know, intimate friends with your team, not intimate, like in relationships, then you need a section in your handbook. That's a whole other podcast, but like intimate in terms of friends with your team and you can, you have to have, there has to be boundaries and there has to be clear expectations and good communication.
And in fact, I think we have a podcast episode about that. We'll, we'll drop it in the show notes actually, because we had, that mailbag sounds really familiar.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: I'm just I'm just trying to put even more plugs in here. I'm just like coming out with plugs out of thin air. Here we go,
Stephanie Goss: Oh, Andy's going to 100 percent make Kelsey employee of the month after this episode, is all I have to say.
Tyler Grogan: It's time. It's definitely coming.
Stephanie Goss: It is time. It is time. This has been wonderful. Thank you both so much for being here with me today for talking through this mailbag question. I think this is a lot of fun. We will drop if you were a team lead and you're listening to this and you're like, Hey, I would love to come to class.
Tyler and Kelsey's workshop, or I would love to see any of the other stuff that is happening at the Team Lead Summit. We'll put the link in the show notes so you can find it. You also can go to unchartedvet.com forward slash events. And the info for Team Lead Summit is up there along with all of our other events.
Like Kelsey said, we have got the Leadership Essentials course, which you can do asynchronously through our friends at Vetfolio. You can do it online. You also could be in Uncharted Member and our community members are getting to do a modified live version of this in the fall where we are going to go through all of the workshop and then we're going to do like Kelsey said, like our team did. We're going to go through activities. We're going to go through stuff on zoom and have weekly, weekly, follow ups.
Tyler Grogan: It’s so good.
Stephanie Goss: If you believe Kelsey and Tyler's plugs, which I did not ask for let me be clear. If you believe they're plugs, you can join the community and join us in that in the fall. Or if you are a leader and you were like, Hey, I just really love this podcast and I would love to grow my skills.
The soft skills that you guys all talked about today, come join us. Me and Tyler, Maria and Andy, I'll be in Minneapolis in June. We're going to be doing an event in conjunction with our friends at Hive. So they've got some team leads, vet techs, practice managers, they're the student event team. it's just for you and we're doing an event in conjunction with them. We're going to be giving a sneak peek to our next certificate that is coming in the end of 2024, the beginning of 2025, and it is all about conflict management. And that is the number one thing when It comes to skills that we get asked for so if you're into any of this, head over to the website and check it out and try to bet. com forward slash events. Otherwise have a great rest of your week, everyone. Take care. Nanny and I'll see you back next week.
Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message.
You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can. Email us at podcast at uncharted vet. com. Take care everybody and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
