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This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…

Have you ever hired someone or had someone join the team and when they get started, it is obvious to the whole team that this person WAY oversold their skillset and abilities? This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss tackle a great question from a practice manager in this very predicament who is asking “What can I do to fix this problem and bridge the gap between their skills and what we need while also addressing the fact that they are currently being grossly overpaid considering their actual skill abilities. We loved the positive and fresh take on this challenge and had a lot of fun with it. Let's get into this…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Episode Transcript

This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.

Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody. Hi, I'm Stephanie Goss. And this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast is kind of a mailbag question, but really there is a situation that a colleague of mine who is a fellow practice manager, reached out to our manager community that we're in and asked for help on. And when I thought I reached out to her and said, “Hey, I don't know that I have a whole lot of answers, but I would really love to talk about this on the podcast with Andy,” because I think that this is something that happens more frequently than we realized.

Stephanie Goss:
And it's really important A, to band together and realize that you're not alone in this situation and B, I loved how this practice manager was approaching it from a place of, how do I actually fix this problem? Versus running away from it. Curious yet? We're going to talk about what happens when we hire someone who has very oversold their abilities and their skillset. And they are being paid a wage that is not really commensurate with the experience level or their abilities once they join the team. And this manager is wondering, I could jump ship and I could run now, but could I fix this? Can I bridge the gap between where they are and where they should be to pay them what we're paying them. Curious? Let's get into this one.

Meg:
And now, the Uncharted Podcast.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie. The case is mistaken identity, Goss.

Stephanie Goss:
Oh, how funny? Is it mistaken identity? I'm not so sure.

Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I don't know. I don't know.

Stephanie Goss:
I like it. How's it going, Andy?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, it's good. The weather here is beautiful, things are moving along nicely. For we've moved into that part of the school year, where the school lets you know, hey, there's one month left of school and we now have 47 events for you to attend in the middle of the day, every day. Surely you'll be there for the 11th AM Awards ceremony for almost perfect attendance.

Stephanie Goss:
True story.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Surely the 1:00 PM cookie lunch with dad is important to you.

Stephanie Goss:
And surely, it all needs to be crammed into the last four weeks of school.

Dr. Andy Roark:
It's called Springfest. Is it on Saturday? No, it's on Monday.

Stephanie Goss:
Oh, I am very, very glad we are in our last two weeks of school and I am very glad I am ready for a break. I'm ready to be done. The kids are getting very excited. I think they have one more like real week of school next week and then the last week is fun and games and-

Dr. Andy Roark:
That's a joke.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Bless their teachers for embracing it. We're having a school camp out the night before the last day of school and they're like, “Yeah, we're not actually even going to have school on the last day. We're just going to all hang out and have breakfast together, then everybody's going home.” I was like, great. I can roll with that.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I have mixed emotions. Here's some genius for you. My 10 year old daughter's teacher is like, “We're doing social studies in the modern era.” And I'm like, “What does that mean?” And it turns out she's listening to songs and watching movies of the '70'S, '80'S and '90'S. And I'm like, that's genius.

Stephanie Goss:
My kid also just, they were doing something with music of the '80's and they were listening to some YouTube channel and it was like, top 10's of different genres from the '80's. And she was just like, “I knew this many songs and nobody else in my class knew these songs.” I was like, “Because I'm the old parent in your class. That's why this is happening.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. On the upside, they listened to, I Will Survive and some beachy songs like Stayin' Alive, and I was like, that's great. On the downside, the teacher decided to show the fourth grade class, Michael Jackson's Thriller. And it took me three days, to get Hannah to sleep through the night again. And I was like, I remember being nine, 10 years old and seeing Michael Jackson's Thriller, it is intense.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. That was on the list of songs and yeah. So that's an intense one. Oh man.

Dr. Andy Roark:
That's good. All right. That's enough of that. We're making it into the summer. It's going to be good. We're almost there.

Stephanie Goss:
We have a question from the mailbag today that comes in preparation for the summer craziest. And this is actually a conversation that I was having with a colleague who is a manager and their clinic is shorthanded as a lot of us are, and they are hiring multiple positions and they have been looking and have been trying to intentionally find the right people. And they have someone who has joined the team who seems to have slipped through the cracks. And it is a licensed technician who seems to have very much oversold themselves and their abilities.

Stephanie Goss:
And they were given an offer letter where they are paid at the very top of the field because they are licensed and theoretically have all of the skills that they said that they had. And so my manager friend was like, “Hey, we're in at will state and so I could just cut and run, but I feel a responsibility because I think we missed some tricks in terms of our interviewing process here and so what can we do to help this person reach their pay grade versus cut and run?” And I thought this is a really great question. And the reason that I loved it was because I felt like it was a really positive approach. I think a lot of people would look at it and say, “You cut and run. That's what you do.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
That's not necessarily wrong. It's not necessarily wrong. And it's going to be up front and say, it's not wrong. I like where this person's head is. I don't think that they're wrong for having that thought.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, no. And so I thought this will be a fun one for you and I to debate and talk through.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I like it a lot. There's two issues here. There's the issue, the obvious issue and there's the issue they asked us about. And the obvious issue is, how do we get here and how do we not get here next time? And then the question they asked us about is, given that we're here, What do we do about it? And I think they're both great questions. I don't want to get sucked into the first question because that's not what we were asked, but I think we should touch on it. Do you want to do a speed round, real fast of what do we do to make sure we don't end up in a position where we just paid top dollar for someone who's not skill wise, how they represented themselves to be?

Dr. Andy Roark:
That could be technician. That could be CSR. That can be doctor who has got three years of experience and acted like they were a hundred percent, they were wildly experienced and comfortable and competent and then you get them in the clinic and they really are not so comfortable and or competent. And you go, Ooh! So anyway, I'm not trying to make this about technicians, but this is anybody who maybe represents themselves in the best possible light during the interview process.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. So I think it's funny because this colleague asked this question in a group that we're in and immediately a lot of the responses were very much like, this never should have happened. Like why didn't you have a system in place?

Dr. Andy Roark:
I hate those responses. Like the whole, I'm going to rent here for a second. I hate social media in this way. I hate it so much when people go in and they're vulnerable and they're like, “Hey, this is what happens and I'm trying to figure out where to go from here.” And people just push each other out of the way to go, “Oh, let me tell you where you screwed up six months ago.” And you're like, “That's not what I asked about? I said, I got it. I saw that it happened, you telling me that only an idiot would hire this way, is not helpful and not productive.” And it's like, I'm sorry. I see that all the time. And I hate it so much. I have to have a say-

Stephanie Goss:
I understand.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… I hate it and I see it all the time. And so if you're feeling that way and you're like, “You know what? I would love to ask questions and not have people behave that way. I wish that social media was that way. I wish social media was that way too.” It's not. You know what? Is the Uncharted Online Community Im just throwing that out there, it's what you wish social media was, it actually is those people who jump in with the support and the advice and encouragement that you need. Sorry. I'm antisocial media today.

Stephanie Goss:
I know, I feel a hundred percent because I was reading this and I was like, “Gosh, why are we ganging up on this person for having-“

Dr. Andy Roark:
I know. It's awful.

Stephanie Goss:
… in this case, I don't even think was their control, it was a decision that was made by a doctor. But still, it doesn't matter, even if they had made it, it doesn't do any good to gang up on. This is like when we give feedback about stuff that happened six months ago, not helpful, not productive to anybody. This is where, but where are we going to start? Well, I think we're not wrong that we should talk about how do we prevent this from happening in the future, because this is not, this is the kind of thing that I see in here and you and I get asked about a lot and there are a lot of people out there who don't have systems in place.

Stephanie Goss:
And so I want to make sure that we do some due diligence and make sure that everybody is thinking about some things that we can do to avoid this in the future. So I think there should be a system in place for hiring and the hiring process. And that pipeline should help you prevent some of these challenges. So in this particular case, and particularly with any licensed or credentialed person, there are really three pieces of it that are important reference checks that I want to put a pin in that and come back to it because it's a little bit bigger. Verifications of credentials. So if you have somebody, whether they're a doctor or technician who say that they're a credentialed potential team member, it is free in every state for you to look up and see the status of their current license. And that is a step that a lot of people miss and don't bother to take the time, because I think some of us are doing background checks and assume that if that's not valid, it will come up as part of the background check.

Stephanie Goss:
And I will also tell you that's not always true with a lot of companies who do background checks, where you have to ask specifically. And particularly when you're talking about your technician staff, to have them look at that whereas with your doctors, generally, they're looking for the credentials, but for a lot of companies, you have to ask for it. And then a lot of us don't know what we don't know and we assume if we're asking for a background check on a Dr. Andy Roark, that they're going to check whether his doctor's license is valid in the state that I'm in, but that's not necessarily true. So having a system that is looking in particular for our credentialed team members, technicians, and doctors, looking at their current credentials and the state, and if there's been any pings or concerns with their credentials, and then the reference check piece is big. And that's like a bigger podcast because there's pros and cons to it. But reference checks are a thing for a reason. And that can help avoid challenges there.

Stephanie Goss:
But the big part for this here system wise, part of the interview process has to be, if you're looking at skilled team members. So whether they are licensed or not, it doesn't matter. If I'm interviewing a skilled CSR who has previous veterinary experience, or if I'm interviewing a licensed technician who's going to work with my team, I want the ability to assess their skills as an employer. And that can take a lot of forms that can look like pre-employment testing, like asking somebody, do they actually know the alphabet and giving them a test to figure out. If you have paper charts, can they file charts accordingly? Can they calculate drug doses?

Stephanie Goss:
Those things are super valid and can, and should be a part of your hiring process. But the other big piece is physically asking them to do the job. And this is where veterinary medicine gets itself into a lot of trouble because oftentimes we say, “Oh yeah, let's do a working interview and come and chat out and hang out for the day and I'm not going to pay you, but I want you to stay. Because, I want to see how you're going to do the job.” That is bad, bad, bad.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Bad. I agree.

Stephanie Goss:
And nothing gets me on my soapbox faster than when somebody says, “Oh, this is my process.” But, for two reasons-

Dr. Andy Roark:
You know what gets me on my soapbox faster than that, social media. Thought you know. I'm good. That's it, I didn't have to say.

Stephanie Goss:
But here's the thing you guys, we have to protect ourselves and we have to protect that person. So there are a lot of people now who like reference checks, will just say, “Don't bother doing them because you can't ask the questions anyways.” And that's not true. If you're going to do working interviews, there is a proper way to do it so that you and that person are covered. And it involves generally two very important and easy things. One, you have to compensate them. You have to compensate them for your time. I am not going to ask someone to come in and spend the whole day or half day with my team and not compensate them for my time. I wouldn't want to go to an interview and be asked to stay and work for free.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yep. If you bring this person in and you compensate them for their time and then you don't hire them, that was the best money you ever spent.

Stephanie Goss:
Absolutely.

Dr. Andy Roark:
That is an outstanding investment, period, full stop. But if you do bring them in and hire them, it's-

Stephanie Goss:
Also good investment.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… it's a drop in the bucket and it's a good investment of starting off in a good foot. I mean, just that's it. I agree.

Stephanie Goss:
So you have to pay them. And then the second piece of it, which often is covered by paying them, if you do it correctly, is you have to protect them and yourself insurance wise. And so that's why I don't even call them working interviews anymore. What I say to people is, we would love to have you come and spend a day with us as a relief person, so that we can assess your skills and you'll be able to meet the rest of the team, they'll be able to interact with you, you'll be able to assess us, just don't ever forget that they're interviewing you too. And so you set them up and you pay them and I'm not going to get into the rules, but there are rules around how you pay them and what you do. But generally when you pay them to be there and you do it correctly, you are covering your own ass when it comes to insurance and liability.

Stephanie Goss:
And so I am a huge fan. Can't state it enough. You should have an interview process that helps you stay out of this situation that our manager friend finds themselves in. And when you do it generally involves having a working interview as part of your process so that you can do exactly that. You are continuing to interview them, you are assessing them for their fit with your team, you also have the opportunity to have them put their hands on your patients and get a feel for their actual skills.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yep. Totally. That's it. That's the much I want to say about that. That's exactly, it's like, “All right, next time, we'll do these differently. But hey, we all make mistakes. We all learn the hard way.” Anyone who acts like they didn't learn this the hard way, was either just lucky or they lie. And that's it. So anyway, being [crosstalk 00:15:48].

Stephanie Goss:
I learnt this the hard way.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… mistake like this, is ridiculous. So anyway, that happens to the best if we all learn, that's just how we learn sometimes. So anyway, I just wanted to cover that. Perfect. Done. Let's pick it from where we are.

Stephanie Goss:
But also not the question. Yeah. The question that was asked is-

Dr. Andy Roark:
Not the question.

Stephanie Goss:
… okay, this has been done, so now what do I do to help this person come up in their skillset and reach their pay grade?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay. So what do we do to get them up there? The healthiest thing from a head space standpoint, and that's where we start, is head space. It's to focus on the present and the future and just to put the pass behind you. It doesn't matter how we got here. There's no reason to think what if, or I wish I had done this differently or I would do… You didn't. And here we are. And so be kind to yourself by forgiving yourself and accepting our position and just moving on and starting fresh here clear ride. So, I don't know. I'm sure I'm not the only person who has a bad habit of beating himself up about mistakes I made and things I should have done and didn't do. It is not helpful.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Hard truth is this person that we're dealing with probably possibly wasn't entirely truthful about their experience level or charitably, maybe didn't understand what we were asking or-

Stephanie Goss:
Somewhere in between.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… confused their knowledge with actually being able to do the thing, which isn't different. So, okay. That's kind of what we're looking at. Let's just be honest about where we are and what we're dealing with. Put a pin in that for the future and file it away. My mother's favorite saying what she got from Oprah, we quote the book of Oprah in our house. My mother's favorite saying from Oprah is, “When someone shows you what they are, believe them.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And I go, “Yeah, okay. Let's remember that and just move on.” Starting now, what needs to happen to keep this salary and this job ranked? Full-stop. That is the question that we need to not talking to the person, sit down, involve the decision makers, like is the medical director on board with us? Who do we need to get on board? But say, I would like to keep this person where they are and we need to skill wise, get them where they need to be. What needs to happen to make that a reality? And then I think you start there.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think that's a great way to approach it. And I think that there are people who are listening, who are like, “But what do I do about the other technicians? And what do I do about the rest of the team who has no certification, but has the skills that this person doesn't possess in this moment.” I'm going to say this. None of that matters. Well, it does matter. But in this context, it doesn't. Though your point, Andy is, look, we have to start here and now doesn't matter what happened in the past. It doesn't matter how we got here, starting here and now, how do we make the change?

Stephanie Goss:
Now, the reason that I said that stuff doesn't matter is because this should be a conversation about this person in the context solely of themselves and their skills. Not comparing them to the other team members, not pitting them against each other. But this is looking at this person and saying, okay, here's the skills, here's you, let's identify the gaps and figure out how we're going to fix them. Not, “Well, the rest of the team can do this and you can't. So this is something we need to fix.” That sets them up for failure on both sides. It sets the team up for failure and it sets that person up for failure straight out of the gate.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I think it's our job as leaders to try to achieve balance. And so, yeah, I think you have to at least look over at the compensation side and say, what do we need so that people feel okay? And I don't mean what do the other support staff need to feel? I don't think that, the best thing is they should not know anything about this, other than this person is credentialed and they were brought into this level and they should not know what their compensation is. Ideally, that's the case. The truth is if they're looking at this person and he's a level 3 technician, and he can't do what the other level 1's and 2's can do, that's a problem. And they're going to see it and they're going to, it may not have anything to do with money, but they're going to say, “Why is this person level 3, when they cannot do the things that the rest of us can do?” That is a problem that we need to at least file it away and know that it's real.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes. I don't disagree there, which feels contradictory to saying that it doesn't matter. But I do. I think that in the moment when you're having the conversation with your new technician, what other people can do or can't do, and the comparisons don't matter, but when you step back and you zoom out for a second, it a hundred percent matters. The team is watching. Equity is important. And to your point, I actually would advocate that I would want the team to know what they're all getting paid because I would want there to be equity in a pay scale. And I would want someone to know if we just hired a level 3 technician that this is where that pay scale starts.

Stephanie Goss:
And so they can see, not assume, not ask for information behind closed doors or have the whispered conversations, which is how it happens in a lot of clinics, but I would actually want them to have that transparency because I do think that the equity matters and what I would say to this manager is I think they are doing a good thing because they are setting the bar and they are acknowledging for their team that, “Hey, things happen, mistakes happen. And I'm not going to go into details. I'm not going to elaborate to the team because my role as an HR professional is not to do that, it's to it's to keep it quiet and to manage it.” But I also can still say to them, “I recognize that there are discrepancies and here's what we're doing to address that.” And I think that's what matters when it comes to the team, if there are concerns and if those kind of things are being voiced, I think it's important to address. We're human and mistakes get made and here's what I'm doing to fix it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And I am also going to circle back to what we said at the beginning and I have to put on my pragmatist hat here. And I would say also as part of head space, I think you, as the decision maker, you need to get comfortable with the idea that this might all fall apart and burn. And it just might, and I think you can accept that and be graceful about it. And the truth is not take too much responsibility on yourself to say this person misrepresented their skills and their expertise and we did not catch it in the interview process and did not take steps to verify. And so when they came in, they were paid at a high pay level. They were not able to do the skills. Their skillset did not match up with their job status or rating and the other team saw that and ultimately it all fell apart and did not work out.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I think that the healthiest thing is to go ahead and accept, this might not work out. This person might not be capable of getting where you need them to be. The rest of the team might rebel and hopefully they won't. But if this becomes every day, one of the team members comes in and says, “Your level 3 technician messed this up again and they're not able to do that and it's causing tension in the practice and every day I have to be an apologist for this person.” Or I have to work it out. Ultimately I'm going to pick my poison and I have a couple of options.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I can continue to stick to my guns and I'll do that until it becomes unfeasible or unpleasant, significantly unpleasant for me to do that, I can adjust the person's level and say, “Hey, look, I need to drop you down to a level 2 instead of a level 3. And with a plan that we mutually create to get you back up to level 3, but you're going to need to drop down to level 2. And that's just what's going to need to happen in order to have other people feeling okay about working with you.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Or it's going to be, “Hey, this isn't working and we're going to need to part ways.” And so I think those are the three outcomes. And I don't think that you have to decide on the first day, which of those three things you do. I think you can a hundred percent start off with rosy glasses on and say, “you know what, let's fix this, let's come up with a plan to get you up where you need to be, we're going to work hard on this. Let's see how it goes.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And maybe it'll work really great. Maybe the person will respond. Maybe their confidence will blossom and they'll grow quickly. And I've seen, that it can happen. Maybe they'll crash and burn and this whole thing will go south and the misunderstanding during the hiring process is just a preview of misunderstandings that we can expect to have with this person going forward and the whole thing is gonna fall apart. I don't know. But I think the healthy head space is to Say, “Yeah, I have some concerns that this is not going to work out in the long term. Going to give it my best. But I am not going to stake my happiness on this particular thing working out.”

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And I think that really, for me, from a manager perspective, I think the potential for it to go sideways comes from the perception of the team in two ways. One, what you're doing in the moment, right now. Like if it's very obvious and in this case, it was very obvious that this technician oversold their abilities, it's going to be obvious to the rest of the team. And so it's what you're doing in the moment and also the timeliness in which you address this. And so I think that it's really important to sit down for yourself and think, “Okay, what is a realistic timeframe and ask.”

Stephanie Goss:
Because I will tell you too many times I have seen friends and colleagues go, “I've got to deal with this situation.” And six weeks later, eight weeks later, 12 weeks later, this person is still employed, still in the same position that they were in the beginning, because we haven't put a timely plan in place and we haven't acted on it and now we're three months in, and this person still doesn't have any more skills than they had on day one and now the rest of the team is pissed. And so I think for me, when I zoom out and think about this issue, that other than the pay challenge potentially blowing up in your face and I have some thoughts on how to look at that, I think the other piece of it is the timeliness.

Stephanie Goss:
And so for me, that is, “Hey, look, if you have somebody, if you actually have skill levels and expectations for skills in your practice, and you should, even if it's to minimally to say, licensed technicians in our state should be able to and are capable of doing X, Y, and Z. When we license technicians, there are things that we say they can do. And if you're using that as your baseline and this person isn't meeting up to the baseline, the question for you is how much time are you going to put on that? And I would caution, I would really caution any of my manager friends and would caution myself to say, this is something that I probably should have a plan to fix in 30 days or less, because the reality is if I can't fix this than 30 days or less, there's a bigger conversation that needs to be had here.

Stephanie Goss:
And that goes to your point, Andy, about sitting down with the person and saying, “Hey, this is what our level 2 or level 3 techs should be able to do. And you're at skill level 1, that is a big gap. And there's no way that we can bridge that gap in 30 days.” And so here's what a realistic plan might look like. The reality is, I think it's really important to zoom out and do that time assessment because it will not take the team long to get real mad, real fast if they don't feel like things are equitable amongst their peers. And so I think you need to look at the time piece of it. And so for me, the way that I would approach… We've gone out of head space because I think the head space is, we have to focus on the present and the future.

Stephanie Goss:
That's where we started. Focus on the here and now we can't do anything about what has already happened. We have to acknowledge for ourselves that they may have not been honest and or maybe they didn't understand or a combination of those things. So we're in a safe head space. We're assuming good intent. And we're going to have a conversation with them. And we're going to say, “Hey, this is what happened. We hired you, we had an expectation for a technician coming into our practice with a license to have X, Y, and Z set of skills. You told us that your skills were here.” Whether they told you verbally, they put it in writing in their resume. Like there's a whole bunch of ways that this could have gone sideways, but be very clear about how they indicated to you what their skillset was and where you are.

Stephanie Goss:
And then it's okay to say that based on your observations or interactions with them so far, you see a gap between those two things. And then I would ask them for their help. And I would say, “I need your help to figure out how we're going to approach this, because there are a variety of options here and it needs to be addressed.” There's no getting around to the fact that you have to address this both with them and the team. And so by asking for their help and asking them, it doesn't feel so close ended. It feels like they're a part of the solution. And then the conversation can be, are they skills deficient in a few areas where you might be able to get them from where they are now to where they need to be in a short period of time. Maybe.

Stephanie Goss:
And then, “Okay, here's the plan. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to pair you with our most experienced technician. We're going to get you into, whatever the deficiency area is, you can come up with a game plan for that. If you have a very vast canyon, which it sounds like this person does, between the skills and the expectation,” then I would say, “Looking at this list, this is more than we want to support you and we want to help facilitate this training. This is more than we can accomplish in a 30, 60, 90 day period.” Whatever that time period is, here's what I need to do.

Stephanie Goss:
I need to address the pay. I need to address your skill level. There has to be a plan because that is where I think it will go sideways very quickly with the team. Is if they feel like it's not being addressed in a timely manner and when there is discrepancy with the pay and it is okay to say to someone, “Hey, we brought you in with this expectation, the skill, the pay is tied to that expectation of skill level and we have a gap. And so until we bridge that gap, I can't pay you $50 an hour or $25 an hour or whatever top end of pay scale looks like for you. I can't pay you that. Because that is not where you are skill wise. And so here's what I can do to bridge that gap.” And offer them a plan.

Stephanie Goss:
So timely, you have to address the money. And then I think the last thing is you have to live up to your end of the bargain and you have to hold them accountable. And if you don't do one of those two things, it's going to fall apart. And so I think asking them to be a part of the solution, they may say no. And they may say, “Well, I don't want, I feel confident and if you don't believe me, fine. I'm going to leave.” They may say, “Well, I feel like I'm at this level.” And they may engage and argue like where you go next could look a million different ways, which it makes it kind of hard to tie this conversation up with a nice, pretty bow, because the response from that person is so variable.

Stephanie Goss:
But I think if you, as the manager say, “I'm acknowledging what has happened. Here's where we are today. Here's where I would like us to move in such short timeframe here, future, this is what I need from you to attack this plan. Can we do this together?” I think you're going to come out of that conversation with a lot more clarity and a lot more solutions. And at the end of the day, lucky for our colleague, they're in and at will state. And if it's not going to work out, it gives you the ability to cut and run to move on.

Stephanie Goss:
But I think there definitely are ways to approach it, but for me it would involve looking at the skills and being clear about this is the gap and specific, because that doesn't make it subjective. It doesn't make it, “Well, Sarah's been here for 10 years and she thinks you can't place catheters as well as she can. So she should be making more money than you.” That's the kind of thing that the team might be feeling those things, but that's super subjective and we need to move this conversation into the objective. Here's the skills, here's the gap, here's the pay that's tied to that. How do we move forward from this moment in time?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, No, I agree.

Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody, this is Stephanie. And I'm going to jump in here for one quick second and make sure that you know about a few things that are coming up, that I'm pretty sure you're not going to want to miss. But before I do that, I have to say thanks to a generous gift from our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital, we are now able to provide transcripts for all of our podcast episodes. And we have to just say, thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Andy and I have wanted to make the podcast more accessible and when we were pondering the idea of how do we make transcripts a thing, our friends at Bandfield stepped up in a big way and said, “Hey, we are striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the profession. This fits with that mission for us. And we would love to sponsor it.”

Stephanie Goss:
So the 2022 podcast episodes are all now being transcribed and brought to you by our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital. To check out the transcript and find out more about what Banfield is doing to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the vet profession, head over to unchartedvet.com/blog and you could find each one of the podcast episodes and a link to find out more about equity, inclusion, and diversity at Bandfield. And now I'm going to jump over and make sure that you know about some things that are coming up that I don't think that you're going to want to miss. You might not be the person who's in charge of marketing for your practice, if not write this down and pass it along. Because we are being joined by none other than the Bill Schroeder from InTouch Practice Communications.

Stephanie Goss:
Bill is amazing. He is wonderful, he is funny, he is kind and down to earth and he loves nothing more than working with veterinary practices and cheering them on about digital marketing. And Bill is joining us on Wednesday, June 8: Creating Content That Clients Crave from 7:00 PM to 9:00 PM ET, which is 4:00 PM to 6:00 PM PT. And he is talking about creating content that clients crave. He is going to teach us how to explore contents that are the most valuable and that have a huge impact and talk about proven methods for great content development. Bill did this workshop for us live, in-person previously and I said, “Hey, bill, I would love for you to bring this to the Uncharted Community, but also to veterinary medicine and beyond.” And he is doing just that on Wednesday, June 8th, if you would like to find out about this and all of the upcoming events from Uncharted, head on over to the website @unchartedvet.com/events and you'll be able to find all of the things that are coming, that you are not going to want to miss. Now back to the podcast.

Dr. Andy Roark:
This is a really advanced leadership challenge. And here's why, because there's so much uncertainty around it. And I think a lot of people, it's hard for you and me to coach in this right now, because the long term is so unclear and this could go so many different ways. And so I think that it's oftentimes kind of frustrating for the people who hear this direction, but just try to bear with me here for a second. I agree with everything that Stephanie said, and you guys have heard us talk back and forth about this, and you've heard me say, “I don't know if it's going to work.” And I don't know if it's going to work. And I can tell you if the other person doesn't want it to work, it's not going to work. And I can also tell you, I don't have any control over whether or not that person wants it to work.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And so people say, “Well, how's this going to end?” Then I go, “How?” And, “What are we going to do in a month?” I have no idea which you're going to do in the month. The frustrating thing is, you're going to go talk to this person and you're going to have your head straight and you're going to need to be nice, kind, I would like this relationship to be great, but you're going to need to be honest about what you need and where you are and unemotionally honest, meaning if they do what Stephanie mentioned, which is flip out and go, “How dare you. I could get this salary from 10 other practices in the area.” They might say that. And here's the other thing, they might be right. That does not change what your pay structure is, what you need in order to be fair to your team or what you need in order to balance the needs of all of your support staff and your clients and everything else, those things don't change.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And so you are going to have to go talk to this person and explain your position and what you need and where you are. And then you're going to have to listen and see what they say. And they might get mad and they might say, “Okay, I hear you.” I don't know what they're going to say, but when they say it, you're going to need to roll out a plan and say, “Let's talk about how we're going to get you where we need to be.” And I think you should make that plan, but know that they might not want to do your plan. And you need to think about what that means. But the other thing is, I would say, I wouldn't overthink it until they tell me, “F your plan.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And when they say F your plan, then I'm going to say, “Okay, that's an interesting position.” I hear that. I'm going to need to sit with this response a little bit and come back to you. But you don't have to have all the answers and you don't have to know what you're going to do next, because there's no telling what they're going to say. So you have to know what your needs are. You need to talk to them about where your head's at, ask them how they're feeling, what they want to do, how you guys are going to move forward. And then you're going to have to step away and process. And ultimately, hopefully, they'll take your training plan to get where they need to go. And then you're going to try it. And it might work and yet might not work. My experience tells me, it'll be somewhere in between those two extremes, meaning it'll kind of work. I bet.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I bet they'll get better and they'll get closer to where you need. And then you'll need to reassess and be like, is this good enough? Are we moving fast enough? Are we going to reduce their compensation a little bit? Because they did make strides, but they didn't get where we needed. How are they going to respond to that? I have no idea. I don't believe there's more clarity than that. I think you are going to have to go through the process of trying this and seeing how the person responds and what they want to do. I don't think that there's a long term strategy other than what we said of be honest, tell them what you need, come up with a plan to get them where you need them to be, come up with metrics and checkpoints to assure that they actually are getting there, monitor the response of your team.

Dr. Andy Roark:
The only other action step that I would take honestly, is I would try to recruit some mentors, champions, allies from my team, meaning, can I do this training? And oftentimes if I can pull good technicians in and say, “Hey, this person's coming in, they're new, they're credentialed, I am working with them to get their skills up technically where we want them to be.” And I'd figure out how to say it based on what the response was from the individual. But I would like to recruit one or two of my techs to help mentor this person and bring them up.

Dr. Andy Roark:
That does a couple things. Number one, it can help get this person trained the way that they want to. And number two, it can take two of my strongest techs and get them off my back. You know what I mean? As far as this person's not where they are, it gives them some skin in the game and gets them involved in fixing the problem and also gets them to know this person a bit more, which might get them to give him or her a little bit more grace. And so I would kind of try to recruit some of those people into the process of training. Beyond that, I think you're just going to have to see how it goes and how they respond.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think something that you say a lot on the podcast and in general is really important here and kind of ties it all up, which is, clear is kind. And I think this is the case where you don't know how they're going to react, and if they blow a gasket, it's okay to say, “I understand that you feel like this doesn't work for you. I think that tells us everything that we need to know about the fact that this should be the time where we part ways. Because it's not going to work for you. And if you can't be agreeable to this, it's not going to work for us either. So we wish you the best of luck.” It makes it easy to have that conversation moving forward, being clear is kind. It's okay to say “There's some gaps here. There's some incongruency with what you told me.”

Stephanie Goss:
It's not about accusing them of lying. It's not about making them wrong or putting them on the defensive. It's about just saying, “Hey, here's what we need and how are we going to get there together?” And then wait and see what happens and what their response is. And when I say, wait and see, don't wait six months, don't wait 12 months. There has to be a plan. Or I promise you from my own painful, personal experience, your team will mutiny. Things will not turn out well for you.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And that's why I said, we have to get okay with the idea, this is not going to work. Because the worst case scenario is very real here. And the worst case scenario for our manager friend is our manager friend and the leadership feels resentful. Because they feel misled and duped into hiring and that they're paying too much. And the person who is hired feels resentful because they feel like they're not being honored for their accomplishments, for their education, that they're not being paid what they deserve or that they are being paid what they're deserved and everybody's treating them like crap for it and so they're resentful. And the rest of the team is resentful because they think this person's been giving status that they do not deserve based on their actual ability to do the work and they're getting paid more than the rest of the staff and they're not delivering the results that the rest of the staff does.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And so then you've got you feeling resentful, the higher feeling resentful and your team feeling resentful. That is the worst outcome. It is not worth that. And so when I say do what is kind, I mean do what is kind to the new hire, to yourself and to your staff. To me, that's, “Let's have a clear conversation and get this out in the open and then let's talk about what we're going to do. And if you are not willing to do that, I'm afraid that you run a very high risk of ending up with the resentment that we talked about.” The other thing is when we say what is kind, having this person come in and not communicating to them how you're feeling or what they need to do to keep their job and just sitting there behind the scenes going, “This is an at-will state and we can fire her. If it doesn't work, we're just going to fire her.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm like, that's not a kind thing to do to somebody. If her job's on the line, tell her, her job's on the line. Say it nicely, say it with empathy, but be honest with her about where she stands and then she'll either leave or she'll, get on board with doing what she needs to do to stay. But I'm just not a fan of not communicating to people where they're at and then just pulling the rug out from under. That doesn't feel bright to me.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. No, I agree.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Awesome.

Stephanie Goss:
Oh man. Well, this was one of those ones that I think, I hope that was helpful. It's one of those things where you can't really tie a bow on it and make it pretty because there is a million different ways that this could go. The reason that I wanted to have this conversation is because looking back like this is one of those conversations that I wish someone had had with me as a new manager of like, “You're going to get in these situations and you're going to have to figure out how to tackle it. And if you haven't faced something like this yet, you're lucky because you will.”

Stephanie Goss:
And I wish that someone had said, “It's okay to be human.” And say, “There's some gaps.” You think either you need to take responsibility forward. And to your point earlier in the episode, you take all the responsibility, which is not right either, because this other person involved had responsibility to share honestly, and openly and maybe they didn't understand, we're not going to question the intent there, but we are going to say, “This is where we're at and there's gap here. How do we fix this?”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Well, look, that's why I say there's social media crowd, that's like, “You should have done this.” It's like, “Morons. I didn't need that.” Anyway and I say that because here's the God's honest truth, so hear this, okay. Running a bad business is making the same damn mistake over and over again. And running a great business is making a different damnedest mistake every day. That's it. That's the truth. And so the idea that you're supposed to get it all right and you don't make mistakes and people need to get kicked from making a mistake. That's just so dumb. And that just shows me that those people do not know what they're really talking about. When I see people doing that, I'm like, “You don't, if you were actually good at this, you would know that crapping on people like that is stupid.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Because it's going to happen to you. And the only thing is your bet, it's not going to end up on social media. And so anyway, that's it. But I hope people take that and really hear that. Because man, it took me a long time to realize that. And I'll just be honest and transparent right now was guys, I made mistakes today. Today I made mistakes. And it was things that I'll just tell you, I'm making a video for somebody. And I was like, “Okay, who is the guest that we're having on here? And how do you pronounce their name?” And I'm like, “I don't know how to say this person's name. And I'm supposed to record a video where it's going to be clear that I don't know how to say their name if we don't fix this.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And you would think after 10 years of making videos and five years of doing podcasts, that I would've gotten it down by now where we get a pronunciation of people's names, if I don't know them. And we just today, we were like, “You know what? We should figure out how to fix this so it doesn't happen again.” And that literally happened 10 minutes before we got on this podcast. And do I feel terrible about it? Do I feel stupid? The answer is no, because I've been doing it for 10 years and we do just fine, making mistakes, not getting upset about them and then just fixing them so they don't happen again. And so guys, I want to leave you with that thought, two thoughts. Number one, success in your career is continuing to make mistakes. And if you never make mistakes, you are not doing enough and you are not trying new things. It is make mistakes and make them once, that is success. That's the first thing I want to say. And the second thing is, shut up social media. Shut it.

Stephanie Goss:
Oh, and we're off this soapbox.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And we're done. That's it. If you'll excuse me, I have to go check my Facebook account. No, I don't.

Stephanie Goss:
Have a fantastic week everyone.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Take care everybody, don't post anything on social media. We'll start a movement here. We're going to put Facebook out of business by encouraging people in our audience tonight. All right. Okay. I'm done. I'm good. See you everybody.

Stephanie Goss:
Bye. Gang, that's wrap on another episode of the podcast and as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find a mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag. Or you can email us podcast@unchartedvet.com Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.

This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…

Have you ever worked in a practice where there is a hot-headed boss? Someone who is reactive? Someone who flies off the handle or is extremely emotional in their reactions to things that don't seem to warrant that level of reaction? A lot of us have worked with someone like that. The question this week on the podcast is what do we do when the hot-head is in charge? Join Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss as they tackle a fantastic question from the mailbag about what to do when the manager of the practice is the hot-head and their fellow leader in the practice isn't their direct boss who can hold them accountable for their behaviors. Let's get into this…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you to our sponsors! To learn more about this week's sponsor, GuardianVets, check out their website HERE.

Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

Upcoming Events

June 8: Creating Content That Clients Crave

Many practices have heard that “content is king”, but few have systems in place that actually generate impactful content.

This extremely interactive session will explore the types of content that are most valuable, the potential impact of such, and proven methods for great content development.

All Upcoming Events

A UVC MEMBERSHIP IS YOUR KEY TO FINALLY GETTING THINGS DONE AND GROWING YOUR VETERINARY PRACTICE.

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Episode Transcript

This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.

Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Have you ever worked in a practice where there's a hothead in the building? I think a lot of us can raise our hands and say, yes, to that one. This episode is a little bit different, because we are talking about a very important question that came into us through the mailbag, and that is, what do we do when the hothead is the one in charge?

Stephanie Goss:
This was a question about a medical director wondering what to do when they have a practice manager who is the one who is the hothead. They are reactive. They come from a place of emotion rather than logics, when people question them or their judgment, or they perceive that someone is questioning them. And this medical director is wondering, what in the heck do I do with this? How do I get the team to understand that this is not acceptable behavior? How do I change the behavior, especially when I'm not actually this person's boss? This one's going to be a fun one, so let's get into this.

Meg:
And now the Uncharted Podcast.

Andy Roark:
And we are back, it's as me, Dr. Andy Roark, and Stephanie, feeling hot, hot, hot, Goss.

Stephanie Goss:
How's it going, Andy?

Andy Roark:
It's frustrating. I'm having that day where I have worked all day, and I have finished nothing. Nothing has been finished. Everything has ended with me running into a roadblock that requires waiting for someone else, or needing to make an edit after I show it to someone or… Yeah, just having to go back to the drawing board or us running out of the thing that we need. Like, I'm like, “This is finished.” They're like, “No, we're out of printer ink. It's not finished, because I can't print it, until the ink is here.” I have busted my hump today. And if someone's like, “What did you finish?” The answer is-

Stephanie Goss:
Nothing.

Andy Roark:
Absolutely nothing.

Stephanie Goss:
I hate days like that.

Andy Roark:
I took my child all the way to school. If that matches the rest of my day, Hannah would be like in the neighborhood somewhere, halfway there.

Stephanie Goss:
Or I was going to say, you got all the way home, and then they called and said, “Hey, she doesn't have her lunch or her permission slip,” or something, right?

Andy Roark:
That's right. Like, “Darn, I have to go take her lunch to school.” That's exactly where we're at. That would have been 100% par for the course today. I'm super loving the work I'm doing, but I just wish it would end.

Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man, I'm sorry. Well, those days are frustrating, because on one hand you feel really productive, because you're just chugging through and you're getting shit done. And on the other hand-

Andy Roark:
I'm super impressed, with the things that I've done.

Stephanie Goss:
… you don't feel like you've done anything.

Andy Roark:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. The work that I have done today is good work. I've worked hard. And if someone said, “Show me what you did today.” I could lay down a lot of things, and they would be like, “Oh man, you put some thought into this, and you some research here. And this is going to, very soon, be something that you're proud of.” I'm like, “Yep. It's just-

Stephanie Goss:
Not today.

Andy Roark:
… not finished.” Exactly. Right, not today. Not today.

Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man.

Andy Roark:
Oh, man. So that;s me, how about you? How were things with… You woke up with a migraine.

Stephanie Goss:
It's one of those days. This has been the longest, coldest, wettest spring we have had in the eight years that I have lived here. It is still pouring down rain, every day. But we have started having mornings where we wake up and it teases us like it's going to be sunny, and it's bright and there's blue sky, and then it starts pouring. And so I just think that like the shift in the weather and the pollen… The plants are so confused, because they're getting some sunshine, and then it starts pouring again, and there's pollen everywhere. And I woke up this morning and just was like, “Okay, my head feels like it's going to explode.” But other than that things are good. There's lots happening. We are busy, busy, busy, and [inaudible 00:04:03] it's good. It's good. Things are good.

Andy Roark:
Yeah. No, I agree. We are working so hard behind the scenes. People have no idea. We're in stealth mode, banging away, got on a bunch of stuff, let me tell you.

Stephanie Goss:
We've got some stuff coming up in the next couple of weeks that's going to come out and launch or open up. And I am really excited about a lot of the things that are coming.

Andy Roark:
No, me too. All right. We have a good question today. This is one that a lot of people I think have, and this is going to let you and me really geek out on some stuff that we love to talk about. This is a strong suit for the two of us. Yeah, let's get into working with hotheads.

Stephanie Goss:
Yep. So we got a letter in the mailbag from a friend and colleague of ours. And it was so funny, because their first sentence was, how do I calm down the practice hothead? And then the second sentence was, and how do I do that when the hothead is the one in charge? And I started laughing. I was like, oh fantastic. And then they went on to fill us in on the longer version. So this is a practice who has a practice manager, who is the one who is very reactive. And this perception is coming from the team.

Stephanie Goss:
In particular, they are really reactive when they get feedback from anybody on the team. And so they are asking for feedback from the team, and the team feels like when it is being given or when questions are being asked about things that this manager is doing, the manager is reacting from a very emotional place, not from a place of logic at all. So a example that they gave us was, hey, one of the doctors on the team had a question. The manager said they were going to look into it. In the meantime, this doctor emailed some other people to ask to see if anybody knew the answer, and included the manager in the email. And the manager went back to the associate vet and was like, “If you've got something to say to me, say it to my face, don't email my boss.” Very angry that they had emailed anybody else.

Stephanie Goss:
And so the person who wrote this to us is a medical director, so they're working directly with this manager, but they are in the position where they are not actually their boss, which is pretty common in a corporate structure. If you're not the practice owner and you're a medical director, often, the practice manager is being day-to-day managed by someone else. And so this medical director is like, “Look, I've talked to this person about these things. The team is talking to them about it. But at the end of the day, I'm not their direct boss. So I can't hold them accountable in a formal capacity. But I am talking to the team, and I am trying to set the example for the team that some of the things that are being said and done are inappropriate, and the behavior needs to be changed.” And so they were asking, “What else can I do here? I feel like my hands are kind of tied.”

Andy Roark:
Yeah, no, I like this question a lot. And the manager part adds a nice little layer of complexity. It's like an art project, it's got a nice little flare to it. We're not just buildings stick house. No, no, we're-

Stephanie Goss:
We're going to sprinkle some glitter on this one.

Andy Roark:
Exactly. We're make a cupola on top. And that makes me excited about the project. I have been spending too much time with you.

Stephanie Goss:
Or with your D&D nerd friends.

Andy Roark:
Oh, yeah, or with my nerd friends.

Stephanie Goss:
I love it.

Andy Roark:
Don't out my nerd hobbies.

Stephanie Goss:
I love it.

Andy Roark:
Yeah, I'm definitely doing more crafting.

Stephanie Goss:
That's a fairy tale word. I love it.

Andy Roark:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's true. All right.

Stephanie Goss:
Andy says, “We're moving on now.”

Andy Roark:
We're going to move on now. Past my various hobbies and onto the question at hand, which is-

Stephanie Goss:
Where do we start?

Andy Roark:
… where the heck do we start? Where do we always start, Stephanie?

Stephanie Goss:
We always start with head space.

Andy Roark:
We always start with head space. All right, so usually when we talk to head space, we start talking about getting in the head space to talk to this person. I think we should get in the head space in this case of what do we think about this person? Before we even start to think about how we're going to talk, the first thing we got to do is figure out what are we going to say to them?

Andy Roark:
Why does this happen? Why do we have people who respond emotionally to feedback? Because that's what we're talking about, right?

Stephanie Goss:
Mm-hmm.

Andy Roark:
Okay. So it comes from a couple of reasons. Number one, some of us are massive perfectionists.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
And we don't like the idea that someone else thinks we didn't do it right. And that is a huge thing. So is it a perfectionist, and this person doesn't like to be wrong? And I know a lot of people who are like that. The idea that they did something “incorrectly,” they don't like that-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… being pointed out. The other part of this and this especially comes, I see it a lot, whenever I hear, “If you have something to say, say it to my face,” and I have heard that a number of times in my career related to emails that went up the chain.

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
Right?

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.

Andy Roark:
That's insecurity.

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
That is not perfectionism, and usually in my mind, and the things can go together. But oftentimes that's insecurity, which is basically, “I'm unsecure about my position here in the practice or my authority or my status, and when you talk about me or something I'm related to, I feel like my status is being challenged. And that pushes some emotional buttons for me.”

Andy Roark:
And the last thing is nobody teaches us how to take feedback. I mean, we just don't talk about it. I think about it with my own kids. And I'm like, “Have I told my kids or talked to my kids about how to take feedback?” I hope I've modeled it for them. Because I think that's the only way to really teach it is to take feedback from other people and people see you do it. And they say, “Okay, well, I see this person who I respect and that's how they receive feedback.” So those are my big three things, perfectionism, insecurity, and a lack of modeling or training in how to take feedback. I think those are some of the big reasons that we sort of start to see these behaviors.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think this is a case for me of needing to look at the other person and say, “Okay, their response, whatever that is, seems incongruent with the reaction that I would have that I personally would have, or that I would expect someone to have if they were given this kind of feedback.” And so for me, that is a situation where then I try and ask myself what else could be happening here. Or look at it from the perspective of, I clearly don't have all the information. Because, to your point, there could be multiple reasons why this is happening.

Stephanie Goss:
Maybe this is a trigger for them because they were in a situation previously where something did go wrong. And this isn't that case, but in their heads, the story their subconscious tells them is this situation is the same. And so you have that fight or flight kind of reaction. So for me, it's really about, okay, if this reaction feels wildly disproportionate to how I might react or how I would expect somebody to react, the first question that I want to ask is, what's going on inside their head?

Stephanie Goss:
And I think this is the danger zone, because a lot of times we hypothesize what could be going on, and then we pick something out of that list and make up a story in our own head about why they're reacting. And too often we don't ask them, “Hey, what's going on?” Right> and we don't-

Andy Roark:
Yeah.

Stephanie Goss:
… go to them and ask them to translate what's happening in their brain. And so from a head space perspective, I think it's really important to think, and one of the questions that I have learned to ask myself is what could be going on? And I try and think of reasons why someone might react that way. The danger in that is when you ask yourself those kind of questions, you have to do something with that to try and actually get more information. Otherwise, you're just making up stories in your head and that's going to complicate things even further.

Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree. I think that there's a split here. Is this a one-off instance or is this-

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
… a pattern of behavior?

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, absolutely.

Andy Roark:
So I completely agree, if this is a one-off out of character instance, this person gets mad and that doesn't usually happen, then I think the easy thing to do is to go to them and say, “Hey, that's not like you. What's going on? Or what happened?” And go with compassion and empathy and just a curiosity to understand. And so, yeah, I completely agree with that.

Andy Roark:
The second part of that is when this is a pattern of behavior, and this person consistently does not handle feedback well, at some point you say, hey, it's not a different reason every day. It's just whenever this person gets feedback they consistently don't don't handle it well.

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
I think separating those two things of, is this a one-off? Is this a bad time for them? Is this out of character? Or is this a pattern of just not taking any sort of critical feedback well? I think separating those things is important. Really, the other things I'll put in my mind is, this person can grow out of this behavior. And I have a 100% seen people move past this specific behavior. I have worked with people who reacted strongly or emotionally to negative information and negative feedback. And they decided they didn't like that, and they came to realize that they were shooting themselves in the foot, or that they were their own worst enemy, or they made situations significantly worse. And that experience for them allowed them to decide they were going to do better.

Andy Roark:
And this is something that if the person wants to move past, I 100% believe you can move past it. I believe that we can be the masters of our emotions. If people are serious about changing this behavior, they can change it. I don't buy into the idea of, “That's just how I am. I can help it.” Yes, you can help it. But they have to want to help it, which means there is no feedback that I can give, if they don't see the problem. They have to want-

Stephanie Goss:
Yep.

Andy Roark:
… to change this behavior about themselves. And so to the point of the writer, at the very beginning, I would say to them, “You're right. You are not going to change this person, unless they want to change.” And here's the other thing, it doesn't matter if you are their boss, if they don't see a problem=.

Stephanie Goss:
True story.

Andy Roark:
… you're not going to change them. It doesn't matter. And so really I think if you internalize that, I think that that gives you a lot of options in how to approach it. And ultimately that's the path to success is, “I can't make this person do anything, but I can talk to them honestly about the repercussions of how they receive information and the effect that they're having when they react this way on other people.” I can say to them, “Honestly, this is career limiting,” and it is. “Your ability to move up or to do other things or to expand or to take on more responsibility or be in this role as the hospital grows-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… all those things are limited by your inability to receive critical feedback without getting angry.”

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
And the other thing that I tend to say to the people that I think is helpful, is, and this is true to some degree, “It's not necessarily about the way you respond. It's about the way that your response affects other people, and how they interpret your response.” And so, for whatever reason, I think that's a much more palatable thing than, “You are hurting everyone's feelings.”

Andy Roark:
To say, “Your reaction is being highly scrutinized. And people are really taking it very, very seriously, and are making assumptions that you don't like them or that you are angry and will continue to be angry at them. And it is undermining your relationship with them and their productivity, because they're out for the rest of the day, mentally checked out.” I think that those are helpful ways to approach the conversation that we have and just kind of try to lower the stakes for the individual.

Stephanie Goss:
I think that's a smart distinction. And I think, for me, I agree with you, I think people can grow in this regard, and where I have seen the most growth in my own team and my own experiences have been situations where something has been said to the person that finally unlocked for them. Not so much, it was their behavior, although that was a part of it, but it was how other people were viewing their behavior or the impact that it was having on the other people. That once they saw that really truly heard it and saw it, it was like, “Oh, I never would want to hurt people that way.” They understood that it was coming across in a very negative and a very, in some cases, hurtful way.

Stephanie Goss:
And that, for whatever reason, it was like, the conversation had been had different ways multiple times, I was at the point where it felt like I wasn't getting through to this person. And then there was a conversation where it was unlocked, and they were like, “Oh, other people are perceiving what I'm doing as bullying. I'm perceiving myself as just being angry. And letting off steam and doing what I do.”

Stephanie Goss:
But for them, it was finally hearing the perception that it wasn't coming across angry, it was coming across bullying or whatever that was, it unlocked-

Andy Roark:
Sure.

Stephanie Goss:
… that emotionally for them on a way that allowed them to grow with it. So I think that's a really important distinction. Sometimes it is also about their own actions and what they're doing, but sometimes it's just about the perception that other people on the team are having and the impact that has.

Andy Roark:
I would say, it's always about the impact they're having on the other people. Unless, okay, now let's get into the nuance of getting angry a bit, because this is important and it's not black and white, no one ever gets upset, no one ever gets angry, and I think that's really important. We are all human beings-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… we're not the Buddha.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
And I have a 100% worked with people who will come and give me horrible news, and then be upset that I am angry about the news that I received. You know what I mean? I mean, it would be something awful. Like, I don't know, like, “Your patient just died.” And I'll be like, “What?” And they're like, “Why are you so upset? Don't be upset.” And I'm like, “Of course I'm upset. Not at you.” To some degree, I use that as an awkward example of, we're human beings dealing-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… with emotional things. There is some amount of giving people the grace to react to this situation and the news. We're not robots. And your boss is not the Buddha. And I think seeing them as a real person, just like you, I do think that there's some point to that.

Andy Roark:
I also would go along with the idea that communication happens at the ear, not at the mouth. And that's also why anger is so interesting to me, it's because we all perceive anger very differently.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
And it can be very different among families. It's very different among cultures. I grew up in a family where people did not raise their voices to each other, very often. It almost never happened.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
And I know other people who come from loving families that scream at each other-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… all the time.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
And I remember being a young person, I remember being an adult, and I've gone to people's houses and they're yelling at each other.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
And I'm like, “I feel so awkward. I shouldn't be here. This is…” And then they're like, “And we're ready for dinner. Let's everybody sit down.” And we're like, “Okay.” And then it's like, it never happened. And I'm like, “Do you understand the fallout of that yelling exchange at my house?” That would be-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… a big deal. And they're like, “Nope, that's just appetizers.”

Stephanie Goss:
Welcome to holidays at my in-laws.

Andy Roark:
And, again, at casa Goss.

Stephanie Goss:
It's true. It's totally true though. It's a big difference within families. And it is jarring when you are used to or have grown up in a situation or culture that is vastly different than the one that's being presented. And I think the same kind of thing applies here, because I have worked with people who grew up, so to speak, in clinic environments that you would look at and say, “This is the quiet family.” And then you go to the family's house where they communicate by shouting at one another, that is a very jarring experience.

Stephanie Goss:
And so I think that that applies very truly here that people can, not only on a personal level, have grown up in different ways and experience different things throughout their life, but also from a work perspective.

Andy Roark:
Sure.

Stephanie Goss:
There is culture in our practices and people are impacted by that and their reactions and the way that they respond often are conditioned and influenced by that.

Andy Roark:
Well, I mean, the other part of this that feeds into it too, one is how people respond by getting angry or yelling or whatever, the other part is, how they give feedback-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… which is another part of this equation.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
My wife's extended family, a big piece of that extended family is from Nicaragua. And they are, shall we say, direct with each other. They a 100%b would just say how they're feeling about what you just said, right to your face, in very clear language. You know what I mean?

Stephanie Goss:
Uh-huh.

Andy Roark:
And it's kind of, you think of, I don't know, conversations on, I don't know, like Pawn Stars or Jersey Shore, where people are, they love each other, they are right up in each other's face. That's how they communicate. And I'm just like, “Oh, boy, if someone gave me feedback that direct, I would have to process that.” And they're like, “Nope. I said you were lazy, and I meant that you were lazy.” And I'm like, “Wow, you guys just went at each other.” And they're like, “Nope, we're just communicating how we feel.”

Andy Roark:
And, again, I say all this and we're laughing, the point is that is a 100% fine, as long as everybody's on board, and we all know what the ground rules are, and we're all comfortable communicating that way. That's why it works in families. Families can all yell at each other as long as they're all comfortable giving and receiving yelling. And a lot of people are. And so I'm not judging. It's just, for me, I go, “Holy crap.” I can see people saying, “Wow, that guy was yelling and that's really bad.” And he's going, “That's just, I was just communicating.”

Andy Roark:
And I also see other people saying, “Why does this person get so upset when I give them feedback?” And I'm like, “Oh, buddy, the feedback you are giving is extremely direct. And maybe not gracefully given.” And they go, “Well, that's how I give feedback in my family,” or, where I came from before.” And so all of that, I just introduced, to intentionally muddy the waters a little bit around this person responds in an emotional way. I go, this is not as cut and dry as people like to think it is. And I think that's good because it's much easier to coach people when you are in a little bit of murky water. When it's not, “Hey, you are clearly the bad guy who needs to change.”

Andy Roark:
It's much easier to say, “Hey, look, everyone is different in how they give and receive feedback. Everyone is different in their comfort with emotion and showing emotion. If you're not bad, you're not wrong even, you are being perceived this way. And there are other people who will perceive you this way as you go on in your career. And while you're not wrong, you are less effective than you should be or could be. And there are some changes you can make to make yourself much more effective.” And I just think that's so much easier to think and to say than to try to say, “You are a bully and people are complaining.”

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think the other thing, I like that we're talking about the murky waters, because I think it is important to be able to see some perspective from both sides here. Because like you said, it's not cut and dry that we're talking about someone who is a horribly toxic person, and their behaviors are like, “This is flaming and it just needs to go.” We've had some episodes where we said, “This is our answer, because it's clear cut.”

Stephanie Goss:
I don't think that this is the case. The one thing I will say that, for me, brings things into focus and gives me a good direction to head in is that our writer said a lot of the communication here that is problematic is happening over email. And so I think it crystallizes it for me because email lacks the ability to read tone and emotion, the way that you can, when you're in a room with someone and you're looking at their face and you're hearing the tone of their voice, and you're seeing their body language.

Stephanie Goss:
We were talking about communicating in families and that kind of environment. And I am a big advocate that there should be professional bars set in our workplace. And I'm not a fan of the idea that let's just have one big happy family at work, because I haven't seen that work out too well, too often. And so, for me, that's something that I struggle with. And the area where I feel like it allows us to have some focus here is that we're specifically talking about most frequently the context of email. And so that is something that makes it actionable for us, because it's not like they're all sitting in the same room. And so it makes the ability to coach and make it actionable a little bit easier, I feel like.

Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree. And the last part of me for head space is if you are someone who deals with this person and you have to deal with these blowups, you're dealing with this. I think you need to get a head space for that. And the head space for me is personal boundaries are important to me. And dignity is important to me. And self-respect are important to me. Which means I am not going to have you trample on my dignity-

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
… and I am not going to abandon my self-respect and let you yell at me. I'm just, I'm not going to do that. And I would encourage people to decide what are you willing to tolerate? And what are you not willing to tolerate? And this is beyond your practice protocols. It's the ability and the willingness to say, “Excuse me, I don't appreciate you speaking to me like that.” And people say, “Oh, my God, you say that.” And I do. And the reason I would say that is because you have a choice to make, when you deal with someone who reacts this way, do you want to have awkwardness as you deal with this person getting angry? Or do you want to have resentment, because you didn't deal with this person getting angry? And now they have continued to act this way and you don't know when it's going to happen again.

Andy Roark:
And this doesn't have to be a first time it happens, I'm ready for it. But if this is a thing that happens, at some point, you have to ask yourself, “Am I willing to be spoken to like this?” And if the answer is, no, that doesn't mean I'm going to get mad. It doesn't mean I'm going to yell back. I'm not, but I am going to tell you, “Listen, I do not appreciate being spoken to like that.” And it may not be at the time this person is reacting emotionally.

Andy Roark:
I may come back and say, “Hey, can we talk about yesterday afternoon? When you did this, it was not acceptable. And it ruined my day. And I went home and talked to my spouse about it, because that's how much it bothered me. And I want you to know that's the effect it had on me. And I'm not willing to have those conversations or be treated like that again. And I'll go get another job.” Seriously, and I do believe in that. There's plenty of vet jobs out there, and I'm not going to be yelled at. And it's funny, you can back people down real fast if you just tell them that.

Andy Roark:
And again, I'm not trying to be callous. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm being honest about what I need to be in this relationship. And I go back again and again, to what we always say is that, “Guys, your job is a relationship, and you should treat it like a relationship. And I'm not going to be in a relationship with people who yell at me.” And I would say that to people I call my friends. I would say that to my family members. Like, “Hey, I'm not going to call you if you're going to yell at me and berate me. I'm not putting myself in that position, and you need to know that.” And that's why I go back to personal boundaries, to dignity and self-respect, is go, “I'm not willing to tolerate this.” And I will tell you that. And you can do with that information, what you will. I'm not kidding.

Stephanie Goss:
Well, should we take a break here and then jump into, how do we take this head space and try and address some of what is happening?

Andy Roark:
Yeah. I think that there's a lot of stuff that we can do. I think this is usually I can get pretty good outcomes on these conversations. So yeah. Let's take a break and then we'll get into it.

Stephanie Goss:
Okay.

Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss, you got a second to talk about GuardianVets.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, what do you want to talk about?

Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed, because the phones never stop ringing.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
And I'm sure you hear from these people as well. Our caseload is blowing up and the doctors are busy and the phones just don't stop.

Stephanie Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.

Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip the switch and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk, and they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments and give them support. And it really is a godsend.

Stephanie Goss:
Pre-pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after hours call help. But at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that they are offering help during the daytime as well. Which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices, because everybody is shorthanded, everybody is drowning in phone calls. And so we talk about it, we've talked about GuardianVets, a lot on the podcast. And every time we do, we always get somebody who says, “What is that?”

Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use some help on the phones or up at the front desk, check them out. It's guardianvets.com, and if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So check it out, guardianvets.com.

Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody, it's Stephanie. And I want to jump in here for just one quick second and make sure that you know about a workshop that's coming up from the Uncharted community that you are not going to want to miss. Now you might not be the person who's in charge of marketing for your practice, if not write this down and pass it along, because we are being joined by none other than the Bill Schroeder from InTouch Practice Communications. Bill is amazing. He is a wonderful. He is funny. He is kind and down to earth, and he loves nothing more than working with veterinary practices and cheering them on about digital marketing.

Stephanie Goss:
And Bill is joining us on Wednesday, June 8th, from 7:00 to 9:00 PM Eastern, which is 4:00 to 6:00 PM Pacific. And he is talking about creating content that clients crave. He is going to teach us how to explore contents that are the most valuable and that have a huge impact. And talk about proven methods for great content development.

Stephanie Goss:
Bill did this workshop for us live in person previously, and I said, “Hey, Bill, I would love for you to bring this to the Uncharted community, but also to veterinary medicine and beyond.” And he is doing just that on Wednesday, June 8th. If you would like to find out about this and all of the upcoming events from Uncharted, head on over to the website at unchartedvet.com/events. And you'll be able to find all of the things that are coming that you are not going to want to miss. Now back to the podcast.

Andy Roark:
All right. You ready to unpack this a little bit?

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, let's do it.

Andy Roark:
All right, cool. Let's jump into specifics here. So specifics, as we have this conversation, number one, lower the stakes. It goes back to what we were talking about before. I don't want this person necessarily to feel judged, any more than I have to. I want to make this not a big deal. When people have a personal flaw, like a personality trait that's causing problems, it is easy for them to feel like you are attacking their identity and who they are. And that can stimulate strong emotions, feelings of shame, things like that. None of those things help me change this person's behavior.

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
And that is why I'm going to go ahead and try to lean into what we talked about before of, “Hey, communication happens at the ear, not at the mouth. And you are being perceived in this way, or you are having these negative effects on people when they are seeing this emotional response, or hear this specific language,” to try to lower the stakes.

Andy Roark:
Number two, and you heard me just kind of stumble on it. You can't say, “You're being a hothead. You're getting angry.” Because people will say, “No, I'm not.” You need to speak in specifics. What are you talking about? Are they raising their voice? Are they using foul language? Because that is not acceptable, that's in the employee handbook. And that's not okay. Are they giving feedback that is being taken as, I don't know, mean. Exactly what feedback are we talking about? We got to give them examples. It's not fair to say, “Hey, when you give feedback, people really don't like it.” And they're like, “What do I do? Or what am I doing? And they're, “I don't know. Whatever you're doing, they hate it.” And they're like, “Well, I don't know what to do with that.” So we've got to speak in specifics.

Stephanie Goss:
And I think that goes on both sides. And I want to pull something out from some of what was shared with us. Our medical director said, an example of one of the emails was that they had sent an email to multiple people on the team saying, “Hey, when you guys do this thing,” and told them what the thing is, they told them what their response was. But the way that they phrased their response was, “This feels like a slap in the face to me, and I'm not going to tolerate it moving forward.” That is a really good example of where it's not clear. It's not specific.

Stephanie Goss:
So giving them the example is wonderful, you should tell them exactly what happened. They need context, but telling them that it feels like a slap in the face to you, what does that mean? That's so subjective there, that could be interpreted a million different ways by five different people on your team. And to follow it up with, “I won't tolerate it,” feels, again, very subjective. Because, again, what does that mean?

Stephanie Goss:
Does that mean that you are not going to talk to me anymore? Does that mean that you're going to write me up? Does that mean you're going to report me? What does that actually mean? And so I think on both sides of the equation, everything for me around this has to do with very clear action steps, and giving clear examples and clear responses on both sides or you're not going to get anywhere.

Andy Roark:
I agree. I also go back to our email 101 rule that we talk about quite frequently.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
Anything that is going to elicit emotion or that you have a motion tied into-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… that's not an email my friends. That's at least the phone call. And that's just it, it's too easy to misinterpret tone, to read tone in. We have all heard people reading things in the worst possible assumptions being made.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
And they're like, “Can you believe he said, ‘That's fine, see you later.' Can you believe he said that?” And you're like, “I don't think he said, ‘That's fine.' I think he said, ‘That's fine.'” And they're like, “Nope, that's not what he said. He said, clearly, ‘That's fine.'”

Stephanie Goss:
It's so funny that you called that out, because that's actually an improv exercise that I learned in school. And I actually love doing that with my team in team meetings. You can 100% take a phrase, couple of sentences at the most, and have five people read it. And tell them, “Read it however you want to read it.” And you will get five different tones, five different inflections, five different emotions played into the exact same wording. And so you want to talk about eye opening for your team, when you're talking about customer service stuff or stuff that's coming in from clients, it's a great example. And it applies here to the team, too, when you're talking about sending emails to each other, particularly. You're spot on, you're going to have different reactions from different people.

Stephanie Goss:
And so it's funny, because you were saying earlier that we don't get taught how to take feedback. And I would say that one of the things that it often is not taught enough either is how to write professional emails. And it's funny, because I actually took a class in business school about business communication, and one whole semester was on email, and it was a short course. But it was weeks of how do you write professional emails? What things go into them? What don't? What kind of grammar? How do we use language appropriately? And that is something that I think that we don't teach enough, just in general, as a life skill. And then when we take people, a lot of times in veterinary medicine, and we promote them because they're good at the job they had, we don't often equip them with the skills that they need to be successful in the job that they have now.

Stephanie Goss:
And this for me is usually an example of one of those things. Because we think it should be common sense for people to know what should go at an email and what should not, but it is not. That is a teachable skill and it is something that we don't often put enough emphasis on. And so I think that part is really important. Teaching our teams, “Okay, these are…” I love how simply you state the rule. Like, if this is something you have emotion for, or you feel like it might elicit an emotional response on the part of the other person, don't put it in email.

Andy Roark:
Yeah. People-

Stephanie Goss:
Simple rule.

Andy Roark:
… overuse email. They do. Emails should be short.

Stephanie Goss:
Or text.

Andy Roark:
They should be… Exactly, or text, especially text. There should not be any emotion in text. It should be a hundred percent straight up wrote information that this is what… What time are we meeting? Thank you.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
What is the phone number?

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
I will be there five minutes late. It should be straight up communications like that.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
People way over use email. It should be short information exchanges.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
Two things I would say on that. My favorite one, when we talk about tone, my favorite example is this, it's, “I didn't say you made a mistake.” “I didn't say you made a mistake.” “I didn't say you made a mistake.” “I didn't say you made a mistake.” “And I didn't say you made a mistake.” And those are all different.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
And they're a 100% the same phrase, and it is just, where do you put the emphasis on that? And it's a joke, but it's not a joke. And that is why I say, “Anything that has emotion, just text is not the right way to sent it. It's just not.” So there's that.

Andy Roark:
The other thing, as far as your professional email course, I will say this, I have been thinking about this recently. I believe that the most valuable videos on YouTube are the boring videos of things you do all the time, and would never watch a video of. I think the number one how-to YouTube video that anyone should watch is how to use your own cell phone. And people are like, “I'm not watching how to use my iPhone.” I'm like, “I bet the amount of time and quality of your life would go up substantially, if you watched the 25 minute, here's the top 10 tricks you didn't know about your iPhone. I'm confident of that.” In that vein, I think a class on how to write a professional email, everyone goes, “Other people need that, I don't need that.” I'm like, “You should take the freaking class.”

Stephanie Goss:
Everyone needs it.

Andy Roark:
Everyone probably needs it. And it's just one of those things where, yes, you would sit through it, and yes, you would probably pick up two or three little things, but those two or three little things might save your bacon a couple of times throughout the 30 year career of you using email.

Stephanie Goss:
I will tell you, I took that class 20 plus years ago, and I couldn't tell you three quarters of the content, but I will tell you the three things that stuck with me from that class I don't ever do when I'm putting it… Your point is solid. There were three things that stuck out to me, and every time I write an email, I hear the professor's voice in my head, and I'm checking to see, am I doing or not doing those three things? I think it's super, super valid.

Andy Roark:
So, yeah, I agree with that. So get off email, separate the person from the behavior. And I know we've said this a couple of different ways. Let's talk about the behavior-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… not about the person getting angry.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
Maybe they need anger management classes. I don't know and neither do you. They need to not communicate in the way that it's making others believe that they're angry. And if they need to go to anger management to accomplish that, then that's fine. But separate the person from the behavior. And let's talk about the behavior, not about the person as someone who can't control their emotions.

Stephanie Goss:
I agree. And so our medical director asks like, “Okay, I'm not their boss-

Andy Roark:
Nope.

Stephanie Goss:
… so what can I do?” It doesn't matter whether you're someone's boss or not. You're a human being who has to interact with them on a regular basis. And so there's nothing wrong with you speaking directly to them about the impact that it has on you or the impact that it has on you and the rest of the team. And so, for me, I think the action steps start there. And I think the point you just made about separating the person and the behavior is really important.

Stephanie Goss:
And so, for me, it's about assuming good intent and trying to come from a place of good intentions. And I always start with asking for help, because I could probably count on one hand the number of times that I have asked somebody else for help and they have flat out refused. And so, for me, it is, “I need your help.” And then give them a specific, “The other day when you sent the email about,” and tell them exactly specifically, so that they understand the email that you're referencing. “When I read the section on you telling the team when they do this thing, it feels like a slap in the face. My response, my emotional response, or my interpretation of that was X.” And tell them how that made you feel.

Stephanie Goss:
By intentionally using words like, “I responded this way,” or, “I interpreted that to mean,” or, “I thought,” “I felt,” you are taking it onto yourself and there's nothing wrong with how your brain interpreted it. You're not saying they're wrong for doing it that way. It's not about them. It's about the behavior, and how the behavior made you feel or made the team feel. And then say, “That really bothers me, because,” here's why. “It bothers me because I feel like I did something wrong and I thought the conversation that we had as a group went really well. And so that leaves me really confused.” Whatever it is, and then just ask them for help, tell them what you need. “Can you tell me more about what you were thinking when you sent that email? Because, I really want to understand where you were coming from.”

Andy Roark:
I love that. And, also, one of the other things I really loved about that is it shows the differences in you and me, because I love it. I love it, because so a 100% you and I were lockstep through the whole, “Hey, I need some help when you sent that email yesterday, and it said the thing, this is how I interpreted it-

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
… and I've heard that the team interpreted it similarly.”

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
And then here's where you and I diverge. And I don't think those are right or wrong, I think some of it is who you are as a person.

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
And some of it, I would say, is probably who you're talking to. So Stephanie Goss says, “I felt this way,” or, “It made me feel this way,” or, “This is the effect that it had on me.”

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
And that is good and powerful. I would a 100% step away from you, and my first inclination is to say, “Hey, this is how it made my life harder, which is… And this is what you said, and this is how I took it. And I know it's how the team took it.

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
And as a result, I've been dealing with upset technicians all day long, and it's making my life really hard. And I need your help to not put me in a position where I'm dealing with angry, upset people-

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
… for three days, because of an email that I don't think really represents what you were trying to say.” And I'd say that, and again, it's not right or wrong, but Stephanie goes to, “This is how this is how I was affected.” And I go to-

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
… “This is-

Stephanie Goss:
“This is the impact.”

Andy Roark:
Unemotionally, this is the impact that you had on me.”

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
And again, I'm not saying right or wrong. It's a 100% who you are. I am a very goal-oriented person. Stephanie is a very relationship-oriented person. And so we do it differently, and it's not right or wrong.

Stephanie Goss:
Well, and I think you're spot on. And the other thing that I would say is that the approach that I would take, there are absolutely times where I would take your approach.

Andy Roark:
Sure.

Stephanie Goss:
And for me, it's about how does the other person I'm trying to talk to communicate as well, right? So you are very-

Andy Roark:
Yes.

Stephanie Goss:
… like you said, you're very goal-driven and I am very relationship-driven, and so that is my natural default to think that way. And at the same time, if I am talking to someone who is a no bullshit, keep it short, let's just have the conversation kind of person, I'm probably going to say, “This has been the fallout. This has been the impact that it has had on me or on the team.” And I would probably use that tactic.

Stephanie Goss:
And so I think they both are right. And they both have value. And I think it's really important to figure out for yourself what you need to relay and also where they are at. Because, in order for the conversation to move forward, most successfully, sometimes it's much more important for us to flex into their style or to lean back into our own natural state.

Andy Roark:
Yeah. I couldn't agree more, a 100%. I would absolutely flex over into your relationship style, depending on who we're talking to. If I'm talking to a relationship person, that's where I would lean. Other than, “Hey, I've been inconvenience by this,” I would lean into our relationship.

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
I just love that. You said that because I was right with you-

Stephanie Goss:
I love it.

Andy Roark:
… and then you kind of made a move and I'm like, “Ooh, that's not the move I would've made.” And then it just made me think about, oh, that's how Stephanie and I are different.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
But again, it's your go-to default, but I think your point is maximum effectiveness comes from knowing the other person and making the move that connects with that person. So anyway, I'm glad that you did that. I think what I would say, and how I would say it is, “Hey, I need your help with something.”

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
And then I would just tell them, “This is what's going on. This is what the email was. This is how I interpreted it. And it's how I know a number of members of the staff interpreted it as well.” And this is-

Stephanie Goss:
Sure. Because I-

Andy Roark:
… the impact that's had.”

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Absolutely, “Because I've been having people come up into my office or come to my desk all day long, because they are feeling very hurt or very angry” or whatever the impact is. That's a very powerful tool.

Andy Roark:
Yep. I agree. And so I really do think that is the conversation to have. This person is not your boss, they're not your boss and you're not their boss-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… which just makes it have a conversation like a friend or a peer. The best thing is for a mentor to say, “Hey, my friend, we need to talk about this.” And frame this in a developmental conversation. And we talk about giving feedback. And if you are their boss, you have a couple different levers to pull. I would still not pull a correctional lever if I didn't have to.

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andy Roark:
I would still lean much more into, “Hey, I like you. I think you're doing a good job. The number one developmental challenge that you are facing right now, to be a more effective leader, is” this perception. “That is the number one thing you need to overcome in the next year. That should be priority one in self-improvement and professional development for you to get where you need to go. Because that is the biggest thing that I think holds you back or could potentially hold you back in the future.” And that is a coaching conversation. “I'm your biggest fan. I want you to succeed. I'm telling you, buddy, this is the thing, you got to fix this. You got to nail this down. And I believe you can, but you have to want to do it. You have to do it.”

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And I think the important part of the conversation is that it doesn't really matter whether you're their boss or they're your boss-

Andy Roark:
No.

Stephanie Goss:
… or vice versa. Really, for me, anybody on the team should be able to have the kind of conversation that you and I just talked about to say, “Hey, look, I need your help, because this is what happened. And this is how it impacted me,” or, “this is how it made me feel.” The other members of the team should be able to have that conversation directly with that person. And so for our medical director, I know them and I know that they not only talked to this person directly, but I'm sure that they also coached other members of the team to try and get them to have the conversations directly, because that kind of communication is important to them.

Stephanie Goss:
And at the same time, I think it doesn't matter whether you are their direct boss or not, if you are taking it to the person who can do something about it. So if I am taking it to the manager and saying, “Hey, this is what happened. I need you to work with me here, because this was the impact or this is how it made me feel or the team feel,” or whatever. And you've had that conversation, especially if you've had that conversation repeatedly, which our medical director friend has, then it is not wrong to then manage up, and ask for help with this situation, because you have tried to fix it yourself.

Stephanie Goss:
And so if you have tried repeatedly and you can clearly define the steps that you have taken for someone else, it is not wrong to go to your boss or their boss and say, “Hey, here's the situation. Here's what I've done to try and fix this. I am at a point where I feel like I need some help, because I'm not getting any traction. And I really want to resolve this situation. Can you help me figure out what comes next?”

Stephanie Goss:
You're not asking them to solve it for you. You're not asking for them to take the problem on. Now, they may look at it and say, “This is not your problem. This is my problem. I will have the conversation,” but you were asking them for help, and managing up in that way, again, is a skill that we don't teach and we don't learn. And it is often looked at as, “Well, you're just telling on them.” And that's not what you're doing.

Stephanie Goss:
But there is absolutely an expectation, for me, at that level of professionalism. And if I have had a conversation repeatedly, and I have asked for changes in the behavior from a person that I have a relationship with, and I am supposed to be in a working partnership with, as a medical director and as practice manager, if I have set my expectations, if I have been clear about my boundaries, if I have had those conversations and asked for their help, and the behavior is still not changing, your next step should be to ask for someone else's help.

Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree. And the comeback to, “You should say it to my face,” is, “I did say it to your face-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… three times. And then yesterday you did this thing, and the behavior doesn't seem to be changing or this-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… continues to be a problem.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
That's it.” But, no, I completely agree with you. I think it's really good. The last little caveat I'll put it in, which should have gone at the very beginning, but I just kind of thought in my mind, I'm like, we didn't say this clearly. But I feel like we probably should is, don't get mad yourself. Confronting the hotheaded person-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… when you are triggered-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… is probably, it's like, “Hey, I'm going to put this fire out with a powder keg I happen to have laying nearby.” Yeah, that's not good. “I'm going to douse this fire with some gasoline, that'll settle it down.” Nope. Make sure that you are not angry when you talk to the person. Which means going to them and saying, “Hey, I need your help. Yesterday, when you sent this email, I was really affected. And I'm not affected now, but, boy, I took-

Stephanie Goss:
Because I'm-

Andy Roark:
… that in a negative way-

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
… yesterday.” And that just makes this conversation a lot easier as opposed to, “How dare you, sir. How dare you send me an email like this,” and you slap them with your latex glove and demand satisfaction with a catheter dual. No, it's not… Boy, [inaudible 00:53:43]… You okay, Steph?

Stephanie Goss:
That's the end of this episode.

Andy Roark:
That's the end of the show. That's it, we're done. I got nothing else. All right, guys, have a wonderful week everybody.

Stephanie Goss:
Have a fantastic week.

Andy Roark:
Don't get angry and send emails to anybody. That's your homework, until next one.

Stephanie Goss:
I love it. Have a great week, everybody. Take care.

Stephanie Goss:
Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag. Or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.