This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…
Imagine that you work in a practice as a new grad and form friendships with the people who are literally helping shape you into a veterinarian. You leave the practice to get some more experience and then you come back to the practice you started at – only this time, you are a part-owner and that means you are the boss! This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are tackling a letter from the mailbag from a veterinarian who has been facing this situation and feels like its extra sticky because now the technician who helped mold/shape them is treating them like a new grad who knows nothing and definitely not treating them like the boss. Let’s get into this…
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Related Episode – I'm The Boss Now…Can We Still Be Friends?
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the uncharted podcast. Have you ever as a doctor felt like one of the technicians on your team was trying to tell you how to practice medicine? You're not alone. This happens, and in this case, we have an email in the mail bag that Andy and I are diving into on the podcast this week from a veterinarian who grew up in a practice, worked with a technician for a really long time, left the practice to get some additional experience, and has come back and is now part owner. They feel like one of the technicians in the practice who helped train them as a new grad is now trying to tell them how to practice medicine and treating them like they're the boss versus the other way around, which is a pretty sticky situation. Let's get into this one. There's a lot to talk about.
Speaker 1:
Now the Uncharted podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
We are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only practice management goddess, Stephanie, since you've been gone, Goss. Since you've been gone…
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, you guys make me feel so awkward…
Dr. Andy Roark:
Since you've been gone…
Stephanie Goss:
… when you use that moniker. How's it going?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, just singing some Kelly Clarkson at. That's that's what's up with it. Oh, yeah. I don't know. It's okay. My wife is enjoying life more than I am right now.
Stephanie Goss:
She's done with school?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, because she's done with school, yes, but also, I work a lot in the yard outside, you know?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's my happy place, and I have planted a lot of stuff since the pandemic started. It Looks really good. Recently, a herd of deer found my yard, and they have been coming and grazing on…
Stephanie Goss:
Eating all the things?
Dr. Andy Roark:
… the baby trees that I have planted and my beautiful hydrangeas, and it is driving me nuts, so I have gone to war with the herd of deer, but also I don't like to hurt animals. I'm not actually doing anything, but I need them to not. I get real upset when I come home and half my hydrangeas are eaten. I have a plan. First of all, I went and I bought the stuff. It's basically like bitter apple dog spray that you spray on furniture, but you spray it on plants.
Stephanie Goss:
For deer?
Dr. Andy Roark:
100%. Yeah. It's blood and eggs and coyote pee. Everything nasty they could think, they put it together to spray, and then you spray it on the leaves. I know that they love my hydrangeas, and so I have spent a ridiculous amount of time spraying hydrangeas with coyote pee and eggs. It's had mixed results.
Stephanie Goss:
How's that working out for you, Andy?
Dr. Andy Roark:
They keep finding new things, different things to eat…
Stephanie Goss:
Surprise.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… and I can't spray the whole forest.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
They're just moving around different things, and I'm starting to freak out because what I read on the internet is that once they get in a habit of coming to an area, they just keep coming which makes them good if you're a hunter who wants to kill them, but not good if you don't want to kill them, you just want them to leave your plants alone.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right? Things went to the next level today. I spoke at Mississippi State University's College of Veterinary Medicine years ago for their students.
Stephanie Goss:
Can't wait to hear where this is going.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Asa gift, the students gave to me a cowbell, a Mississippi State cowbell.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, dear lord.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's a cowbell with a handle that is made to raise hell at a football game. You know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's got an anchored… You just dong, dong. Oh, boy. It's real loud. We carry it gently through the house because it is real loud. My research has also told me that deer are skittish creatures, who don't like people, and if they become startled or associated in area with people or loud noises, they will avoid them.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Where we are right now is I and Skipper have taken to watching out the windows in the mornings and evenings to spot deer creeping into the yard. This morning, my wife saw one out the bathroom window and said, “There's a deer beside the house,” at which point I grabbed my cowbell, and ran out of the house, “Yes.” I'm screaming. I chased… This deer took off like a shot from a cannon, like you've never seen a deer. It just blurred into a brown streak with a white butt tuft disappearing into the… It launched like a rocket. I'm barefoot. I'm running with my cowbell. It took me a half an hour to get Allison calm back down to where she could go to work and be productive. Okay? I scared the heck out of that guy. I'm not convinced that he's smart enough to change his… I think this may become….
Stephanie Goss:
I was going to say, how's it working out for you?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, Stephanie Goss, if you were eating lettuce in my yard and I came running at you with a cowbell and screaming, would you come back?
Stephanie Goss:
The mental image.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm highly optimistic. I'm highly optimistic that it's check and mate Andy Roark over the deer.
Stephanie Goss:
I highly optimistic that the deer are just going to wait until it's dark, and then they're going to come back when you can't see them, and they're going to continue to eat everything that you haven't sprayed coyote pee and eggs on.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I don't appreciate your negativity. I'd like to table this until you have a proposed solution that you would like to put forward, because I don't want to hear why my plan's not going to work and no constructive feedback.
Stephanie Goss:
I started laughing six minutes ago when you started telling this story, because you have told us repeatedly on this podcast that you have multiple acres in the middle of the wood.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm defending a large territory.
Stephanie Goss:
I'm pretty sure that some of your research should probably involve really looking at farming techniques and resource material from way back when settlers lived in the middle of the woods and had farms in where they had large amounts of property in deer, because I'm pretty sure you're not going to be able to cover two whole acres with coyote pee and eggs.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, no, no. I just need to defend the hostage. I will tell you, I have read all of the recent issues of Modern Golf Course magazine, because I'm not alone in this fight. There's a brotherhood of those of us united by a common enemy, trying to save expensive landscape plants
Stephanie Goss:
It's 100% true. That is how we got our dog, Bird. That was her job. She lived at the golf course for a majority of every day, and she chased off all of the deer and geese from eating and pooping on all of the plants and grass. Maybe you just need to teach Skipper how to go on patrol around your house without being a bad dog and taking off.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I was going to say, Skipper is wildly unreliable. This feels a lot like releasing a species to deal with another species and having more problems because of the second one.
Stephanie Goss:
This is why I don't think Skipper is the right dog for the job here.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There's not a problem that Skipper is the solution to.
Stephanie Goss:
Maybe the solution is to get another dog, don't know how would feel about that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah. We have enough dogs.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my God. We're almost 10 minutes, and it's to actually get to the point.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay. All right. If you want to talk about something else, we can do that.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my God. Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I don't know that I'll have any other solutions as streamlined and well thought out as my Mississippi State cowbell solution, but we can try.
Stephanie Goss:
I'm pretty sure any of the students who are listening are very proud of how you put their gift to good use.
Dr. Andy Roark:
My wife was like, “You've had that for years. Why do you still have a Mississippi State cowbell?” I was like, “One day, I'm going to need this,” and that day was this morning.
Stephanie Goss:
I can't wait to hear what your neighbors think of you.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I thought about that too. Is that the veterinarian screaming with a cow bill chasing the deer?
Stephanie Goss:
I can't. I can't.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my God. My face and my stomach hurt from laughing. Okay. We've got a good one today. I'm I'm really excited. I got to reign it in. Let's get it together. We've got a good one today. We got an email through the mail bag, which was wonderful, from a veterinarian who finds themself in a position that they're really struggling with.
Stephanie Goss:
They had a rough start to veterinarian practice life. Eventually, they found a practice that felt like it was a place that they could really get settled. They were there for a good amount of time. They had a great doctor team, excellent technicians. They had a technician who really leaned into training, and educating, and became a great resource for our writer veterinarian, and was a really good mentor who became a really good friend. The doctor who wrote in said, “I've grown and developed so much, and so much of it is in thanks in part to this technician who stepped up and helped be a mentor to me.”
Stephanie Goss:
They left their practice for a while, and then they had an opportunity to come back to the same practice. The same group of techs was still there. When they came back into the practice, they came back in as an owner in the practice, as a part owner. It's a group of us who own the practice together. This vet was like, “Obviously it's a learning curve. I've taken on partners. There's lots of growing pains. I'm coming back into a practice after having been gone for a while, and there's lots of change. Most of it is okay, and I'm managing most of it well, but I'm really struggling because in part, there's one relationship with one of the technicians that I'm really struggling with.”
Stephanie Goss:
It's the technician who really mentored this vet. To this veterinarian, it feels like this technician is really struggling with adjusting to the change in roles. Now, instead of being a mentee and an associate vet in this practice, this veterinarian has stepped in and is a leader in the practice and an owner. It seems like this technician is really struggling to accept that change of role. The doctor said, “There's lots of times where I feel like I'm still being treated like a new grad. I feel like I'm actually getting pressure from this technician to handle cases and do things differently with my medicine. Even when I don't agree, and we've had a conversation about why I don't agree. I feel like there's a lot of outwardly expressed disagreement and negativity towards the way that I'm managing my cases.”
Stephanie Goss:
Our writer was like, “I'm really struggling because I don't see the same behavior with the other veterinarians in the practice. I had never experienced this previously. I've only started to experience it since I've come back into the practice as a partner.” They said, “I thought I was handling everything fine, and I was looking at it from, I feel like, maybe this is just me perspective, but this technician has been on vacation.”
Stephanie Goss:
Our writer was like, “I felt like during that two weeks I went to work, and I felt unstressed, and I felt like everything was really good. I realized that a lot of the anxiety that I'm having around work has to do with my relationship now and where this is at. I'm struggling not only with the behaviors within the practice, but also feeling like I'm losing a really good friend, because this is somebody who I really treasured and valued the relationship. I feel like that relationship has shifted, and it's feeling really much a struggle for me right now.”
Stephanie Goss:
Our writer was like, “I feel like I'm on my own with this because there aren't problems with the other veterinarians, and so I don't know how to approach figuring out, is it me? Am I the problem? Also, how do I deal with feeling like, as a veterinarian, I have a technician on my team who is not only questioning my medicine, but who I feel like is actively pressuring me to do things their way, which feels uncomfortable to this vet.” It's a whole lot to unpack.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot here, but I think we can handle this. It's funny. The first thing that I thought about when I read this is my friend, Dr. Lance Roasa, who's a multi-practice owner, he has a phrase that he uses. He gives this piece of management advice sometimes. There'll be people who will be really struggling with an employee, or I'll be honest, a potentially toxic person. I'm not sure if they're toxic or whatever, but I keep butting heads with these people, and he calls it a garden vacation.
Dr. Andy Roark:
His advice is to send them home for two weeks and pay them. Send them home, and pay them for two weeks, and just let them have a garden vacation, and then see how you feel for those two weeks. If the whole tone of the clinic changes, and everybody's happy, and you have the best days you've had in months, you know what you should do then. This makes this clear. I'm not saying that this technician should go, especially if no one else is having a problem at all, but that was the first thing that popped into my head is the old garden vacation. It is an interesting and often effective diagnostic tool on, is this where the stress is coming from? Then you send them away, and you go, “Oh, yes, it was. It was.”
Stephanie Goss:
All I can think is that nobody wants to vacation in your garden because there's cowbells and deer.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And, deer!
Stephanie Goss:
It smells like coyote pee and eggs.
Dr. Andy Roark:
If anyone wants to come set up next to my height ranges, you can have a garden vacation. You can sweep with the cowbell, and when you hear the chomping of deer teeth on baby tree limbs, you can charge out.
Stephanie Goss:
Chase them off. No, I love that, and I think that it's true. I think the interesting part here is that is unintentionally, that's exactly what happened for this veterinarian, and yet they're like, “The garden vacation worked great for me because I feel like now I've recognized that this is a source of stress and anxiety for me, but it doesn't seem to be that way for everybody else on the team, so now what? When I've identified that part of it is just me, and it's not like the whole team was 10 times happier, or less stressed, or whatever emotions that they're feeling, but it was me then, then what do I do?,” which is what I thought was so interesting about this one.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I think so. Anyway, let's walk it through. I think there's a lot of assumptions here, and I like to poke holes in assumptions. Let's go ahead and get started. We'll start with some head space. For our doctor here, who's stressing about this, and it sounds like he or she is questioning herself a lot about, “Am I wrong here? Are other people feeling this way?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Let me start with a couple of things. I don't know what's going on with this technician, and I don't know how much of it is real and how much of it's perception. We all tell ourselves stories. I don't know how much is real here. There is a psychological principal called the anchor principal, and what it says is that people tend to remember us and think of us as the way we were when they met us. If you met someone as a college kid, 10 years later, when they're 27 years old, you still have a tendency to think of them as a college kid. I know people who still think of me as a vet student, because that's when they met me.
Stephanie Goss:
This is the reason that my kid recently told me, “Oh yeah, somebody was asking me how old my mom was, and I said that you were 32.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's how old you were when she met you.
Stephanie Goss:
I was like, “Kid, I love you so much. That's amazing. You can tell people I'm 32 forever.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. 100%. Yeah. That's funny.
Stephanie Goss:
That makes sense, right? That was when he learned how old I was. That's stuck in his brain, and so that's what he tells people.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. That's exactly it. I see this a lot with young doctors and new doctors. I see it with pretty much every staff member is that when you start your career at a practice, and you're a baby, whether you're a baby vet, or a baby tech, or a baby front desk or whatever, the people who train you tend to remember you as a baby, and then three years go by, and you have three years of experience, plus the training that you had coming in, and there can still be a tendency for people to remember you as the new grad, the baby tech, things like that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think that's a reason why you see a lot of people change jobs after a year or two out of tech school or out of vet school, vet school especially. People come in, they take their lumps, they make their mistakes, they learn the things that they're going to learn to make them a competent doctor, and at some point, they are still getting treated like a baby vet. Other places are like, “Hey, you got three years experience. You're a fully functioning doctor. Come here.” I do think sometimes people just want to fresh start to get away from that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I don't know how common that is versus other things, but it is a true psychological principle. It is a thing that happens. When I look at this, and I say, “Okay, we've got this technician who was here, who really mentored this doctor, and then later on the doctor's chafing, now that she's a partner, and she's still getting mentored in some ways, fact checked, and leaned on to practice in the way that the technician wants.” In fact, is that history thing? Is that because this technician remembers her just getting started? Is that what it is? Is this a power thing, because now you are a partner in the practice, and this person feels like you have jumped over them, and they're trying to take you down a peg, you know what I mean, or solidify their own place, and I don't know, try to convince others that you may be a partner, but that they're still, I don't know, the most senior voice? I don't know what that is, but all those things go through my mind as far as, what is the root cause of this?
Stephanie Goss:
Well, I think that's a super valid point. You and I did an episode. We'll drop it in the show notes. You and I did an episode, and I can't remember the title of the episode, but we talked about when you are friends with the team, and then you become the boss, right? I think that there probably is a measure of that attached to this, because to your point about the anchor principal, this is someone who knew you when you were recently out of school. You were very much in a developmental phase, and you were learning, and you were growing, and you were finding your footing, and you were figuring out how to be a veterinarian. This is someone who knew you then who became friends with you, and you built a relationship during that phase.
Stephanie Goss:
Now, you have jumped, and you have shifted. It's a big jump. In this case, to your point, Andy, you have jumped over them and into a role coming back into this practice where you are to some degree effectively their boss. You might not be their immediate supervisor, but as a part owner in the practice, you have a say, and you are their boss. You are their employer, and so I think that there probably is… I couldn't imagine not thinking about that, putting myself in the technician shoes. There would absolutely be a part of me that would think about, “Oh, this person is my employer now, and that shifts things.”
Stephanie Goss:
In that episode, we talked about, we have to have the conversation, and we have to ask questions. This, for me, part of the head space and part of the solution piece of this absolutely has to be about, did we miss having some conversations? You were saying, we need to poke holes in it. It sounds to me like this is one of the holes that I would poke is, have you talked to her about it, about how you're feeling, about how you valued the friendship? There was so much information given to us, and the first thing I thought of is like, “Have you talked about any of this?,” because those are big changes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. You do that so well. That's something I really admire about you is that you have such a relationship focus, and you anticipate these things, and you're really good about having those conversations up front about what this means for our relationship. Let's talk about this. It completely makes sense that you would have that thought and want to go in that direction. I think that's really true. I think that you do that really well.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think in the action steps, we should talk about maybe what that conversation looks like. I think the classic things that you and I always talk about, assuming good intent, let's try to lead with grace. It's easy to feel like this person is undermining me, they're working against me, they're destroying my credibility, insubordination. Insubordination is a code word for flaming raging sword of justice. That's exactly what comes to my mind, insubordination, and we pull the flaming raging sword of justice, and we take heads, because how dare you cross me and undermine my authority?
Stephanie Goss:
You and I are very much of one mind today because that was the mental image I had in my head. It's very easy to get into that negative head space of feeling like, “Okay,” especially because they have unintentionally had a garden vacation, and this writer has recognized that so much of their stress and anxiety ties to this person. I could totally hallucinate that if I put my myself in the veterinarian's shoes, that I would be feeling mad, and angry, and maybe not looking at things from a place of good intent because I'm just questioning my medicine, and I want to grab that flaming raging sword justice and just attack you with it. I agree with you 100%.
Stephanie Goss:
I had assume good intent at the top of my list. I think you have to be in a good head space to ask questions about why is it happening, and more importantly, what can we do to change it once we have that first conversation. I think the only way you get to that is to tell yourself that, “I don't think this person is doing this intentionally. I want to understand where they're coming from and why they're behaving the way that they are. How can I start there?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
I agree. I think that one thing you really don't want to screw up here that I think a lot of people screw up is they don't have the conversation until they're angry.
Stephanie Goss:
Right, and they're triggered.
Dr. Andy Roark:
They're triggered, and they've just felt mistreated in or in front of the group or undermined, and they get mad, and they say, “Let me tell you what I think of you.” That stuff is hard to take back. It muddies the water. It sounds like honestly, as this person has gone away for a garden vacation, and we've had some clarity and time to think, when they come back, it may be a very good time to try to have the conversation because we've had some space and some distance. They've had some time away. Yeah. I think that could be a distinct possibility.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's the head space for me is don't allow yourself to get mad because it's not going to go well if you get angry. Try to assume good intention on his part. I really like your idea of focus more on where is this person coming from and trying to understand what their position is or why they're behaving this way. I think that's really good. Then I think that we should lean into the relationship and relationship power. I don't think that you want to lean into the idea of, “I'm your boss, and so we're going to have a boss to employee conversation.” I think we should lean into, “Hey, you and I have worked together for a long time, and I've always respected you, and you've really positively impacted my career, and I feel like we're not working well together right now. I want to talk about that because I want us to be friends, and I want us to enjoy each other and enjoy working together.” That's the head space I'm going for.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think that is really, really important. I think what you said about being in a good head space is so important because I think it would be really easy to, when you have the conversation, which is the action part, one of the things you're going to have to be able to do is give them some solid examples of the behavior or the specific behaviors that they are exhibiting, whether it's asking questions of you in front of the team. What is causing this veterinarian to feel like this technician is questioning their medicine, or second guessing the way that they're practicing medicine, or trying to, quote unquote, “tell them how to practice.” My question would be, what does that look like? I would bet you $100 that if you tried to answer that question when you're in the moment, your answer is going to be radically different than when you are not hacked off and feeling angry at this person.
Stephanie Goss:
I think the head space piece of it has to do with assuming good. Why assuming good intent is so important is because I think this veterinary needs to ask themselves to look objectively at the situation and say, “What is the behaviors? What are the things that are happening that make me feel that way? Is it possible that what I feel like is happening is not what is truly happening in the moment?” This is where I often… It's hard to tell that on your own because we don't look clearly at what we're too close to, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Part of it for me is sometimes stepping back and getting that perspective, whether it's asking a coworker who was present or another veterinarian who was in the treatment room when you guys had that interaction with each other, where you felt like they were questioning your medicine, to ask somebody else, “Hey, I'm really struggling with this. Can you give me your perspective of how that conversation went or how that interaction went?,” because it could just be me, right? I could be getting upset over something that feels emotional to me that maybe didn't come across that way to anybody else. I think part of it from a head space perspective is taking that step back and just telling yourself, asking yourself the question, “Is it possible that something else could have happened here, and I'm not seeing it clearly?,” because I think that really is helpful for narrowing down the behaviors specifically, to be able to use them as examples, and solving this, and having the conversation with the technician, but also from giving yourself some distance and self perspective from that emotion.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. This is where bravery comes in. The not brave answer is to approach this from a defensive position and to say, “Why is this happening? This is how I feel, and this is how you feel, and blah, blah, blah.” It's not putting yourself out there to be hurt or to accept a new responsibility. The brave position is vulnerability. It's to say, “I'm not sure if I'm the only one feeling this, or if this is not real. This could just be my own insecurity, but I'm looking at this, and I'm feeling like we're not connecting, and it's really bothering me. I don't know exactly what to make of it and what I'm contributing and what I'm not contributing, but I really want to talk to you about it and iron it out.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's how we get vulnerability in other people is generally, we have to go first. We have to be the first one to say, “I'm bothered by this, and I don't know if I'm doing something that's frustrating you. I don't want to. I want us to work well together. I'm wondering if you're having it feelings of frustration with me and where this stuff is coming from.” But, that is the scary place to lead from, is to say, “I don't know if this is just me, and I don't know if I'm doing something that's making you angry,” but it opens the conversation up for a really positive discussion. It's scary to do it. You have to be brave to put yourself out there.
Stephanie Goss:
It's a big first step.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I think that's part of why the head space part is so important. This lesson learned, it's funny because you and I always seem to do podcast episodes when sometimes it's just so timely. Thinking about my own life, I think one of the things that has been a golden rule for me, that has served me really well in terms of being brave, has been figuring out for my myself, how do I give myself enough space to process the emotions, so that I don't come at it from a place of being triggered and not too much time that I get so in my head that then I'm too chicken to have the conversation? I really do think that there is a fine line there when it comes to bravery, at least for myself.
Stephanie Goss:
I have found time and time again, that I have to have a timeline in the back of my head where I say, “Okay, it's time to address this.” Right? I've given myself enough time to process my emotions, but not enough time that I then chicken out on having the conversation with the person. For me, that timeline has to be pretty short, on a personal level, because what I have found is that if I let myself calm down, I very easily go into chicken mode. I have a 48 hour rule for myself. Depending on the level of the relationship and the situation, a three day rule is kind of my rule of thumb where I say, “Okay, I'm going to take some time to cool off,” and so 48 hours works for me. I give myself 24 hours to calm down, and process, and ask some better questions. Then I force myself to say, “Look, if this really bothers you, you either have to say something about it or make an active plan for saying something about it, or I'm going to let it go, and I'm going to move on.”
Stephanie Goss:
It's so funny because what I have found time and time again for myself is that the only time that I ever really truly get angry at myself or regret not being brave, happens when I break that rule and when I don't step up and say something to the person. I think that for me, that is something that has served me really well in terms of figuring out how to be brave is to figure out what that… to A, put a timeline on it for myself and really be true to that rule of look, if I say that I'm going to not talk about this, that I'm going to… I don't want to bring it up to the person. I'm just going to move on. Then, I really truly have to move on. If I find myself circling back to it, then I have to tell myself, “Okay, you've circled back to this. Clearly it bothered you. You have to do something about it.”
Stephanie Goss:
This is a lot of the shower conversations I have with myself or the conversations that I have in my own head, but it really truly has been the best tool for me in figuring out how to be brave because you and I talk about this a lot about being vulnerable and leading with vulnerability. I often have people tell me, “I thank you so much for what you guys talk about on the podcast, or you said this thing, and it really made a difference for me,” and anybody who knows me, knows that I immediately turn bright red, and get uncomfortable, and try and deflect that. At the same time, I will tell you all very vulnerably and candidly right now, the reason why I feel more comfortable with these conversations is because I have given myself rules.
Stephanie Goss:
I have said, “Look, if this is the case, if there is something like this that is emotional, that is really bothering you, this is the rule that you're going to live by.” It has really served me well for being able to step into that place of getting brave and saying, “This just really bothers me.” On a human level, I want to enjoy my job, and I want to be able to come to work and enjoy it. It doesn't just apply at work. It applies in my personal life as well, but I just think that is really, really important, and yet taking that step to be brave is hard.
Stephanie Goss:
It's hard for me. It is really hard for me, and I've had people tell me, “You make it look so easy,” even people that I'm just having the hard conversation with, “You make having this conversation look really easy.” It's not easy. My palms still sweat. I still get nervous, but that doesn't mean that I don't force myself to do it. I think that part of that force for me, has been making that agreement with myself and saying, “I'm going to step up and say something, or I'm going to move on.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I think that's really… It's a simple decision to make, but I think it's a really good intentional decision.
Stephanie Goss:
For sure. Should we take a break, and then talk about, okay, we've recognized that this is bothering this vet. What do we do about this?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right. I think that's the place. Let's take a break here, and then we're going to come back, and let's talk about what actual action steps we're going to do.
Stephanie Goss:
Sounds good.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. This is Stephanie, and I'm going to jump in here for one quick second, and make sure that you know about a few things that are coming up that I'm pretty sure you're not going to want to miss, but before I do that, I have to say, thank you. Thanks to a generous gift from our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital, we are now able to provide transcripts for all of our podcast episodes, and we have to just say, thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Andy and I have wanted to make the podcast more accessible, and when we were pondering the idea of how do we make transcripts a thing, our friends at Banfield stepped up in a big way and said, “Hey, we are striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the profession. This fits with that mission for us, and we would love to sponsor it.”
Stephanie Goss:
The 2022 podcast episodes are all now being transcribed and brought to you by our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital. To check out the transcript and find out more about what Banfield is doing to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the vet profession, head over to unchartedvet.com/blog, and you can find each one of the podcast episodes and a link to find out more about equity, inclusion, and diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Now my dear friend, Bret Canfield is absolutely awesome. He is coming back to work with our community and with you, if you want to register to attend this workshop to talk about how do we manage a negative team member? We all have them on our teams, right? These are people who are talented, whose skills are needed, but their attitudes might leave something to be desired. Bret is going to walk us through how to lead and how to coach while we explore the not so secret ways to repolarize our most cynical and cantankerous crew members. It is happening on July 13th. It is a 7:00 PM Eastern time. So 4:00 PM Pacific, and it is a two hour workshop, so it will be over at 9:00 PM Eastern, 6:00 PM Pacific. It is $99 if you are not a current uncharted member, and it is free, as always, to our uncharted members.
Stephanie Goss:
That is the thing that is coming up the soonest, and you are not going to want to miss it, but we also have more coming at you. The cool part about your uncharted membership is all of our workshops are included. If you head on over to the website at unchartedvet.com/events, and you take a look at what we've got upcoming, and you're looking at it, and you are not currently an uncharted member, and you're like, “Hey, a bunch of this sounds good,” remember that it's all included with your membership. It may be more cost effective to talk to your manager or talk to your practice owner about, “Hey, could we do this membership thing, because look at what I'm getting out of it?” Anyways, we will hopefully see you all soon, and now back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right. Let's start to unpack how we actually approach this. I'm curious what you think about it. There's a fine line between gossiping and asking for advice.
Stephanie Goss:
True.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think that in some of these situations, one of the things that has helped me is seeking validation of the scenery, meaning I am not looking for other people to tell me that I'm right, and this other person is being a jerk, but I want to know, am I the only one, because it very much seems in the letter that we got, that this doctor is saying, “I think I'm the only one, and everybody else is having a right experience.” Having a conversation with some of the other doctors and saying, “Hey,” not in a negative way, not in a critical way, say, “I don't feel like I'm connecting with this person, or I feel like there's some tension between us, and I'm having some anxiety about working with them and working around them. I'm just curious, have you experienced anything like that in the last couple of months or any interactions? Do you have any advice for me in working with this person or getting along with?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
That can be a really useful conversation because a lot of people have been like, “Oh, yeah. She and I went through this before, and this is how it went down and what we did, or what we decided, or what it took for us to feel comfortable working together,” or they might be like, “No, I've never had any problems with this person,” or they might say, “I have never had any problems, but they do seem to not be happy about working with you quite honestly.” I think a lot of that's, especially vets in a trusting relationship, we tell each other like, “Yeah. I think maybe you should deal with this issue because it looks like it might be sticking around.”
Stephanie Goss:
Well, and here's where you get to… For better or for worse, a partnership is to a degree like a marriage, and this is where you lean into the sanctity of your marriage.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The sanctity of partnership. Yep.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, and you be able to say to your other partners, “Hey, this is something I'm really struggling with,” because at the end of the day, your struggles will impact them, whether it is already or not. If you were struggling at work, if you're second guessing yourself, if you're doubting yourself, ultimately that is going to affect them.
Stephanie Goss:
This is where you lean into the privacy rules that should apply to a good partnership and say, “Hey, I am struggling, and I want to address this. I'm not asking for anybody to solve this for me, but I need a sounding board, and I need to see if I'm the only one, to your point, or are other people having this, and in particular, if any of the other doctors have,” like we talked about earlier, “if any of the other doctors who are partners in the practice have been around when the specific behaviors have occurred and asking them for their perspective, without sharing necessarily first, how it made you feel asking for their perspective on the situation, can be really, really helpful. Ultimately you may talk about how it's making you feel, and you may have some discussion about how do you address it, but if you're coming to them from a problem solving perspective, I think that's the best thing you can possibly do because at the end of the day, it's going to impact them too.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree with that. That was on my list as well is lower the stakes, meaning I would not want this to feel or look like a disciplinary conversation at all. I want this to look like, “Hey, I'm just talking to you. This is a relationship conversation.” I think that's a good approach to have. It's not overly formalizing or making this something organizational.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. For me, where I start with action steps is where you just mentioned, true action steps in terms of talking to the technician about it. For me, it's about the relationship, and it's about addressing that first and foremost, because it sounds, from reading the letter we got, like the emotions and the hurt is the bigger problem or is certainly impacting the veterinarian feeling like their medicine is being questioned. For me, it's about having the conversation about the relationship. The pre-planning, the prep for me, would be maybe having a conversation with some of the veterinarians, my partners in the practice and saying, “Is this just me?,” especially if they've seen the behavior. “Hey, can I get your take on this because, I would really love to know your perspective on this interaction?”
Stephanie Goss:
Then I would approach it from having a conversation with the technician and really just leaning into starting with good intention. “I care about you. We've worked together for a long time. I really value our friendship, and I also really… I want you to know you have been a mentor to me, and I have learned so much from you, and I'm struggling because I feel like that has changed. I want to understand what's going on for you because we're both in this relationship, and we're also in this partnership working together as a veterinarian and technician. I want to understand where your head is at and what's going on with you.”
Stephanie Goss:
Maybe it's like you said. I'm the relationship person, so maybe it makes sense that's where my brain starts, but for me, it's about leaning into to that conversation first, because I feel like if we can't have that conversation, maybe it is a little bit about lowering the stakes and not coming at it from the disciplinary perspective. But, more than that, if we can't iron out how we each feel, if I was in this veterinarian shoes, I don't know that I could have a conversation about feeling like they're questioning my judgment as a veterinarian without getting fired up and strike out, right, because I feel like if I was them, it would be emotionally driven that conversation. If I don't address the emotions and where they're coming from first, I know on a personal level, I would struggle with having that conversation objectively at all.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree with that as well. I really think the questioning, the judgment is probably a symptom, not an underlying problem. A lot of times, if we have the conversation about our relationship and how we're interacting, then the questioning of decisions will just go away. That may be something that we don't need to directly discuss because when I say to you, “Stephanie, I feel like you're questioning my decisions,” you're going to say, “No, I'm not. I'm just asking about the things that I see. Do you not want me to make any suggestions? Do you not want me to say anything if I notice something?” Well, of course, I don't want you to sit silently. I want you to be an interactive participant in what we're doing.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's always been an unproductive conversation for me. We'll have that conversation directly if we have to, but to your point earlier, I think the only time to have that conversation is say, “Hey, when you said this specific thing in front of these specific people in this specific way, that felt like it was undermining my ability to do the job and to have the team trust me.” Hopefully, it won't come to that. A lot of times we can just have an overarching relationship conversation, and a lot of these specific instances will iron themselves out.
Stephanie Goss:
I think you brought up something earlier that I wasn't thinking about when we started, but I think is a super valid and important piece of the conversation which is, there is a fundamental shift that has happened in the power dynamic in this relationship. Whereas, you were colleagues before, you were an associate, he or she was a technician, you were on the same team at the same level. Now a power shift has happened where, like I said, even if you're not their direct supervisor, you're their employer. If you haven't had that conversation and asked about that, both for yourself like, “How do you feel about that, but also how do they feel about that?,” that would be a good place for me, whether it's where I start or where I end. I think I would want to unpack that a little and see how they're feeling about that.
Stephanie Goss:
I think that's where for me, it's really easy to get brave is to just say, “This is really new for both of us, and I just want to make sure that we're both okay with this and that if there's any worries or concerns, that we talk about it, because I really value your opinion, and I value you as a technician, and I value your skill set, and I want to be able to continue our relationship. At the same time, I'm acknowledging that a big shift has happened. That's okay to want to ask questions, or have concerns, or whatever, and I want both to be able to talk about it.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. I like that. I think that's a good way to go forward. I think alternative approaches to take… I don't think there's any way to not have this conversation and try to be vulnerable and have it as open as possible. I think some objectives for me would be to try to recruit this person onto my team and to say, “Hey, I really want to do a good job here. I want to be successful. I want to be a good boss to work with. I want the team to like me. I want to help create a really good workplace, a positive culture for all of us. I'd like your help with that because we work well together, and I want you to be on my side and on my team so that we can do this together.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
That also allows me to pad this person's ego a little bit and hopefully make them feel like there's more opportunity and possibility in being my friend and working with me than there is in working against me. It'll be more fun to work with me, and they're going to be taken care of. They're going to benefit if things go well for me in the practice. I am genuinely going to try to make things better for everybody, and that's something that hopefully I can get them to support and also to feel like they are going to have… We talk a lot about when we do change management, trying to make sure that people can see themselves in the future. If I can recruit this person, I'm trying to get her to see herself in the future where she and I work well together, and it's a good thing, and everybody benefits from this collaboration.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That approach of, “Hey, I want you to be a part of this. I want us to work together. I want us to do good stuff,” not I want you to lead me alone so I can do my stuff. I don't want you to be neutral. I want you to be on my team. I want you to work with me.” A lot of times I can swing people and their perceptions because now they don't feel shut down. They feel included in something new.
Stephanie Goss:
I like that a lot. That makes sense. Do you have any other thoughts about things, sub pieces to this conversation?
Dr. Andy Roark:
No. I think we hit much of the big things, as far as we mentioned earlier about lowering the stakes. We talked about having an open, vulnerable conversation about the relationship, and what it looks like, and what it means, and taking as much ownership as I can of, “Hey, tell me what I'm doing, and tell me how you're perceiving this, and how we work together,” and try to recruit this person.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The last part after that is, what happens if it doesn't work? I think you do have a couple of options if this doesn't work, and hopefully it will, but let's say that this person is recalcitrant. Let's say that they're not going to tell you how they feel. They're going to do something passive aggressive. They're going to decide that they don't like your face, so that's all the reason that they need or whatever. My big thing would be… I try to balance the needs of everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark:
If the other doctors really like this person, to me, it does not feel like failure to minimize my time working one on one with this technician. I don't have to work with this person every day if the other doctors like her, and she does not seem to want to work with me. It really depends on how your practice is set up, but I do think that a lot of times that can be it, is to say, “Well, this person is not my favorite technician to work with, and you guys really like them.” I would be happy if we swung the schedule around a little bit, so maybe I wasn't seeing a lot of appointments with this person. That may be 100% possible.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There's the old fashioned feedback model where we have the conversation, and I try to recruit them, and then they won't get on board. I'm going to have some feedback conversations with the person using the specifics that we talked about. It's like, “Hey, this morning, you and I were talking in the treatment room, and I said this, and you said this thing, and you said it in front of a couple other people. When you did that, it made me feel self-conscious, it made me feel like you weren't supporting the decision that I had made. I wanted to point that out to you and say, ‘Hey, it's always fine for you to voice your concerns, but I ask that you do it in private in a way that doesn't call me out in front of the staff or make me look or feel self-conscious.” Just start that feedback process.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Again, we're working through it, and if the person continues to not want to change or interact at some point, you may have to decide, what does that mean? Does that mean that we're going to take this person away from working with you, and they're not going to work with you anymore? I don't like that as a practice rule. I think that there's a difference between saying, “Hey, I prefer to work with these technicians and not with those technicians, because in this one instance, we have this personal relationship that hasn't worked out very well.” That's different. That's different to me than, “I don't work with these people and they don't work with me, or these two people have to be separated.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Then I think the last thing for me is to try and figure out, and this again, would be a conversation that I would lean into with your partners as a practice owner is, if it is just this one person, I think there definitely needs to be one on one discussions and feedback, like you mentioned. I think it important to give that person the feedback and coaching of how do you want them to give you input or ask you questions, because, like you said, most veterinarians are going to want, if a tech catches an error or sees something wrong, you're a team. You want somebody to have your back. You want them to catch that, and save your butt, and say, “Oh, did you mean to write that we're going to give that drug five times a day? Because, I don't think that's what you meant, right?” That's the whole point. You want a team that is going to look at that, and catch it, and have your back.
Stephanie Goss:
At the same time, I think it is important to know and be able to give that coaching to this person, if it is one person, of how do you want that delivered? What does that look like? What does it feel like, for all of the doctors, right? But, if this is really, truly happening with one person, you can take that level of feedback, and have that conversation with them, and give them that coaching and feedback. If it is more widespread than that, then I would have a conversation with my partners about, what does it look like for the technicians to give feedback in direct medicine? Because, every clinic is different, and there's really no wrong way of doing it. I've seen practices where the licensed technicians that are heavily leveraged, do direct a lot of medicine. I've worked with doctors who absolutely would not fit in well in those practices, because they want to work in an environment where they are not questioned when it comes to medicine, and they direct the course of medicine. Right?
Stephanie Goss:
That would be a conversation that I would want to have with my partners is, how do we approach it here in this practice, and how do I make sure that it's something that you can live with and be comfortable with? Because, everybody's going to have a different level, and there's really no wrong way to do it, unless it involves someone who's not a veterinarian practicing medicine. Right? I think that's where you need to have the conversation with your partners, if it is truly something that is impacting more than just this one technician and this one relationship.
Stephanie Goss:
But, if it truly comes down to you and this technician are really struggling, that's where I think you have to lean into addressing that, and giving feedback and coaching, and it is going to have to be active on the part of the veterinarian to be clear and say, “Hey, when this happened, I know you were trying to give me feedback about the patient, and I appreciate that. I want your feedback and what you specifically said, or how you specifically said it, or the words that you used.” You have to paint the picture for them, and tell them exactly what bothered you, and then tell them what about it bothered you.
Stephanie Goss:
Was it because it was in front of other people? Was it because you interpreted that and you translated that into your brain as, “Sarah doesn't think I'm a good doctor,” right? When you give that feedback and coaching to someone one on one, you have to be able to paint that picture for them. I think that has to be an active part for this veterinarian in the feedback and coaching relationship with this technician.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I completely agree. Yeah. That's I think that's the best advice that I have. I think that covers all the bases.
Stephanie Goss:
I hope that this was helpful. This is a really good one. I had a lot of fun with this.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, definitely.
Stephanie Goss:
Take care, everybody. Have a fantastic rest of the week.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, guys. Take care of yourself. I'm going to go check the yard for deer.
Stephanie Goss:
I can't with you.
Stephanie Goss:
Well gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. As always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mail bag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care of everybody and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
