Vet Tech

Are traditional expectations around resignations and job stability becoming outdated? A practice owner shares their concerns about the increasing trend of employees resigning via email or text and the prevalence of job-hopping on resumes. How can we navigate these changing norms without feeling out of touch?

In this episode, Maria and Andy explore how to approach these issues with empathy and strategic thinking. They discuss practical steps for interviewing candidates with job-hopping histories, setting clear expectations during onboarding, and cultivating a workplace culture that encourages retention. Maria's deep understanding of leadership and her passion for helping others develop their skills make her the perfect guide for this conversation.

Maria Pirita, a Certified Veterinary Practice Manager, Elite Fear Free Certified Veterinary Professional, and former hospital administrator, joins the conversation with her wealth of experience in veterinary medicine and leadership. Maria has spent over a decade in the field and over 20 years honing her leadership skills, making her an expert in helping veterinary leaders adapt to evolving workplace dynamics. Her background in veterinary marketing, team building, and positive work culture provides invaluable insights for addressing these modern challenges. Let's get into this episode…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to discuss on the podcast? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Episode Transcript

Dr. Andy Roark: Hey everybody, it's me, Dr. Andy Roark. I am your host and this is the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast. Guys, I got a great one for you today. We are talking about people job hopping. First of all, should we be concerned when people apply for jobs and they've had a bunch of jobs in the last couple of years?

And then also, when people quit by text. All of this is lumped together under the idea of, are social norms changing about how we leave jobs and how we should look at behaviors that used to be frowned upon? That's what we're talking about. It is me and the one and only Maria Parita, CVPM. Stephanie Goss is away.

Maria is amazing. If you have not heard from her before, you're gonna really love this episode. As I say in the episode, one of my favorite things about Maria is that she is so good at providing sample wording for how she would say things and she does that here. It's really just it's just great I love talking with her if you love maria make sure to see her at the Uncharted Team Lead Summit.

She is talking about, sorting out interpersonal conflict amongst the team. Head over uncharted vet. com We'll put a direct link in the show note, and with that let's get into this episode…

And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only Maria Parita CVPM. Hello, my friend. How are you?

Maria Pirita: Hello, Andy. I'm good. How are you doing?

Dr. Andy Roark: I'm doing great. I love when I get to work with you. Stephanie Goss is away, and so this is a wonderful opportunity for you and me to collaborate How have you been? How are things going?

Maria Pirita: It's going really good. I'm here in Florida, so as, as many people know, we have Hurricane Debbie that just came through which was really light actually. It was, it was actually kind of funny because I'm, I'm new to Florida, right? So I've only been a Floridian for a couple of years. And last, the first year that we moved in, like a month after we moved in, was Hurricane Ian.

And we were like, boarding up stuff. We were like putting sandbags out and like the hurricane came through we looked at all of our neighbors and we're like We're over prepared like by a lot and so this time we're kind of very chill And it wasn't it's like a very it wasn't even just a tropical storm around here I think by by me, but people were out walking the dog and I'm just like laughing it like this is so floor I went to a bridal shower like it's so So Florida, but it's just like at some point you realize like it's just a lot of rain.

So for us, we were very lucky that it's just a lot of rain. I don't know about other areas, but we did not overprepare this time. So I felt more like a true Floridian this time than before.

Dr. Andy Roark: you're, you're on your way like, like three more hurricanes and you're gonna be those people who have lawn chairs. And like, bathing suits and a cooler in front of your house when the hurricane rolls in. Like, that's, that's, you're gonna become Florida, that's how you become Florida people.

At first, you're like, we gotta prepare, we need to do the responsible thing. And then you're like, and it steadily steps down until, you know, you've got you've got you've got a boom box and some Coors Light and a four wheeler in 

Maria Pirita: I've heard that hurricane parties are a real thing. Like, that is a very real thing. Tyler Grogan even told me about it a little bit, too. She's a Floridian for a while. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, yeah. When I was in vet school, we went through this period. It was a crazy year. It was probably 2007, something like that. And we had three huge hurricanes hit Gainesville within like two weeks of each other. Like all within two weeks. And the house, like our house flooded. Like it was not a, it was not a fun experience.

Our house flooded. Power was out everywhere and there was nothing to do. And so, our friends just started having parties and, you know, we'd make our way over there and sit outside and, you know, drink some margaritas with battery powered music. And that was it. There was, there was, well, you know, and so, the, GRU was the, was the power company, and they were running around, I'm sure they were working hard.

But after about, Two weeks, we still didn't have power. And then down the road from my house, the sign appears and it was a huge sign. It was stuck out in the major roadway and it said, GRU, where are you? And it stayed there. And I found out a couple of weeks later, Mary Gardner, the founder of Lap of Love Pet Hospice was like “It was me.”

Maria Pirita: Stop! Oh, no! 

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. So it was so funny. She was like, do you remember that sign? I was like, well, of course I remember the sign was huge. 

Maria Pirita: Oh, that's amazing. She's like, that was me.

Dr. Andy Roark: That was me and again, that's when that's when I knew that Mary Gardner was a woman who gets things done

Maria Pirita: Yes, she does. Yes, she does. Because where, where was the electric company right after that?

Dr. Andy Roark: I said, yeah, I was like, I'm sure they felt pressure to get to our neighborhood It might have just been that it was two weeks and then it was time But fairly shortly after that they did show up.

I would tell you this as far as hurricane parties I do remember this too. Everyone was so bored out of their mind after two weeks without any power when they did come and fix the lines It was like lalapalooza. You know amphitheater seating. We all went out, there's kids there, we all went and just sat in lawn chairs and watched them fix the lines.

Not in like a disrespectful way, just in a like, we, we have not had any entertainment. And so we're going to come and sit and watch you, you know, put these lines back up. 

Maria Pirita: There had to have been cheers. Like, I would be cheering those people on, like, Yeah! 

Dr. Andy Roark: Whenever they put a line up and then like came down, we all cheered. And then they went back up because like, oh, I'm not done yet.

Maria Pirita: oh, no! 

Dr. Andy Roark: And then we'd cheer as they came down again. And he's like, no, no, no, I still got one, I got, I got another thing.

Maria Pirita: That's amazing.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh man, let's let's do let's do what we came to do here. Let's get into this We got a really good question for the mailbag. Do you want to lay it out for us?

Maria Pirita: Yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited to talk about this one specifically because I kind of feel a lot about this. I, I just like, I just noticed it in my, my own self, this is actually from the community. And so it's something that kind of sparked a really great conversation overall in the Uncharted community as a whole, but also in general, something that I thought would be great for us to talk about.

And so essentially this person has shown some frustration because they've been a practice owner for a long time and they noticed that like recently people are not almost putting in their two weeks notice in face to face anymore. She's noticing a lot of email, a lot of text messages, and she's like, honestly, it feels a little bit scary.

She's like afraid to check her email which is

Like totally understandable. Like somebody's gonna quit if I open my email. If I don't open it, no one's quitting. Which I totally felt as a practice manager at some point. Totally resonated. The other thing that she, she, the particular situation with this person was facing is that they also noticed that they're seeing a lot more job hopping on resumes, which I thought was really interesting.

Because she mentioned how this used to be a red flag when we were hiring people. Right. And that's what I remembered when we were talking, when we're reading this, I was like, yeah, I remember hiring people basically in 2009, 2010. And this was at pizza place, right? But it was seen as a red flag to have that many jobs and And so anyway, that part really resonated with me, and so she, her particular situation said, you know, She just recently hired somebody and she's almost nervous because this person had Three jobs in a matter of a couple of years and so she's like I want her to stay But I am nervous because what if she doesn't stay and she said she didn't address it during the interview Which she feels like she probably should have addressed it during the interview and moving forward and she said it just felt kind of awkward She's like I didn't want to be rude and straight up ask her, you know, about job hopping So she's left wondering Is she just being old fashioned?

Is this more realistic to expect now? You know, this kind of communication, whether it's the how to quit or the job hopping. Just wondering, is she like out of touch? And then also like, how can we address these things if we are changing norms in professionalism when it comes to whether it's just veterinary medicine or as a whole?

And so she's just hoping she said she'd really appreciate our insights on this. So I thought that was nice. So yeah that is. That is Chewy, actually saying hello.

Dr. Andy Roark: we're gonna let you weigh in

Maria Pirita: he's got some strong feelings about this himself, actually. 

Dr. Andy Roark: So we've got sort of two different animals here. So one is sort of quitting without notice or quitting by tax, and the other one is sort of job hopping. But they go together, at least in the mind of our person asking, in, under the umbrella of our, our norms changing around employment. And so I think that it's valid to take them, to take them together.

I think that's really interesting. I heard a story recently. This is not, it's not a funny story. It's funny on the outside. You know, it's like comedy is tragedy happening to other people. Is, is, is the saying. But it was like, there's this poor manager. And this person came up to them and said, Hey, I'm giving my two weeks notice.

And the manager said, Oh, I'm really sorry to hear that. And the woman says, Yeah. I'll, today will be my last day. And the manager said, I thought you were giving your two week notice. She said, I am. And the manager said, That usually means you're going to work two more weeks. And she said, No, I start my new job tomorrow.

And so it was, just funny to me that the person like they said the words i'm giving my two weeks notice but I don't think he actually thought about what those words mean I think two weeks notice is code for i'm quitting and sometimes it means i'm i'm quitting immediately And so it was just it was a real story and it just but it made me chuckle Okay, I'm gonna I want to sort of lay down two sort of different ideas that I have around around around the quitting lane.

Let's start with the let's start with the quitting for the for the for the for the Face to face resignation versus text, and so there's two different conflicting ideas, but I think they're both true. So the first one I'm going to say is in our society over the last couple of decades, I believe we have seen a pendulum swing towards individualism.

Meaning, everything in society is really about, what do you, Maria, like? What do you want? It down to the fact that, you know, I've got four people in my house and on any given night, we're probably all watching different television shows, you know, like we are all doing our own our own thing. It is very much, you know, when we travel, what is your personal preference?

So you can, I can get an Uber to come and get me and take me exactly where I want. You know, we don't do public transportation in the U. S. because everybody has a car so that you can go where you want to go and do what you want to do. I'm not trying to say that that's bad or anything. I really do think it's a pendulum swing between interconnectivity and individualism.

And I think that we've swung a lot towards individualism. And when we do that, we get over into a bit of a mindset of, what do I want to do? What's good for me? And I am leaving this job. And so, I'm going to prioritize myself and what, and what my needs are, and I'm just going to do that thing that makes sense for me.

It allows me to live my truth. It allows me to, you know, to do the thing that's emotionally important to me right now. And that's it. And again, I'm not trying to comment on that morality, but I do think we've kind of swung over in that, in that direction. Right? And so there's, there's sort of this, this general swing, I think, towards individualism and people sort of saying, What do I want to do?

How do I feel? Let's do that. The other side of it that I have to say, and I've thought a lot about this as far as, this goes into job hopping too, but, but as far as quitting, I think that some behaviors that made sense when we all worked for mom and pops, don't send tend to make sense in the age of sort of global corporations.

You know what I mean? I don't think that people feel the same. And I don't know if this is a corporate owned practice or not, but I just think societally speaking, when we went to work at the local store and the owner of the store was there working shoulder to shoulder with us. We felt bad about being like, I'm leaving immediately and I know you're going to be shorthanded, but I'm walking away.

Because you're kind of putting that on this person that you know who's hopefully a good person and a member of your community. I think also probably our, our reputation in smaller communities was a bigger deal because, you know, when everybody knew each other, your, you know, your reputation really mattered a bit.

I think that people maybe feel a little bit different on going to Global Corp that has 600, 000 employees and being like, Hey, I'm, I'm taking off. You're going to have to pull someone from one of your other locations. And again, that, and the manager's like, they're, they're, you know, they're, they're paid by, they're paid by the hour.

And again, I'm not talking about veterinary practices specifically here. I'm just talking about the general way that we work in society today. And so anyway, I think that that whole, two weeks notice face to face. Thank you for the opportunity. I wonder if as business has changed, if people's feelings about, you know, having those conversations have changed.

So I kind of, I kind of look at that a little bit in headspace for the, for the face to face resignation part.

Maria Pirita: Yeah, totally. I think, too, another thing that I think is a reality that we need to face is that communication in general has been changing for a long time. We can't stop the fact that, like, There has been, for a while, an increase in using text messages and email, and there is like, we grew up, a lot of us, using text message and email.

So, it doesn't, to some people, they won't understand what the purpose is of face to face versus text and email, because at the end of the day, to them, it's the same thing. And so, a lot of this, too, is like, what we learned in general. So, for myself, I didn't learn until I was well in the workflow, workforce, that I had to quit in writing, right?

But it was something that somebody, at some point, did have to teach me. So I didn't know that and then I didn't understand the big why behind it until I was a manager and having to have that in writing. Then I was like, oh, this makes sense of why, why managers need in writing. So unless we're actually talking about why it's important to quit face to face or like why we want to have those things, you know, it's, it's just not something that everybody is going to know.

And, and I think a lot of it is just communication in general has changed. And so I think part of me for Headspace is like really trying to figure out from this perspective, why does it bother you if it is email versus face to face? And then that'll, that'll help guide you into like why you want to change it.

You know?

Dr. Andy Roark: No, I, I think you're, I think you're spot on. I, I really like that. I think that that's a really good, healthy way to look at it. I think, I think just in general, we talk about this a lot, assuming good intent on the part of others is just a happier, healthier way to live your life. It helps you react a more, I don't know, in a more productive way and to just feel better.

I think that, I think that not reading too much into it, I think is really important. I like your idea of. Why is this important to you? I, I think that that's good, I think that's good to sit and, and, and sit with a little bit and say is it, is it a feeling of respect? Do you feel disrespected? If so, why do you feel that way?

And when Maria says, you know, people are much more comfortable with text now, I think that's a really great point. Perhaps I shouldn't feel this way. You know, maybe I can solve that problem there. Is it about the, the timeliness of resigning? I think, I think that that's very valid too. If somebody gives you no notice and they're just gone, that's really hard.

At, at some point, our strategy might be acceptance. I think what I would say is from a headspace standpoint is, okay, if this is a thing that happens, and if there seems to be shifting norms, or I've had multiple people over the, say, the years, just say, hey, I'm out, I'm gone in a week, I'm gone in three days, or I'm gone in two weeks, and then it just doesn't work, and they're gone in three days.

I have seen that a lot. Again, again, even when people say they'll give you two weeks, often they just, you don't want those two weeks. They're just done. And so I think, I think that kind of acceptance can be really healthy. I think from a Headspace standpoint, knowing that that's a possibility with your staff and just go ahead and being smart to say, all right, understand that people could leave at any moment.

They could be raptured away. They could walk out in front of a bus, like who knows what's going to happen. Just general good hygiene and maintenance around, people could disappear at any moment, including myself. Is our, is our business set up to try to flex and accommodate that? And of course, there's always going to be times it's more convenient for someone to go, and times it's less convenient to go.

Spoiler alert, they're going to go when it's not convenient. It always happens that way. You can hope for it. It's probably going to happen. I just think, I think the more that you can, you know, put some good practices into place, and we'll talk about what that looks like, so that it's not so disruptive when people quit abruptly.

We're just You can't control other people, like we just, we can't. And, and if my business depends on people acting in an exemplary fashion, it's not much of a business. Like we're, we're already in trouble.

Maria Pirita: Yeah, I couldn't agree more there. I think you bring up a really valid point too of like, If somebody doesn't want to finish off their two weeks like you really don't want them there

Anyway, and so that's that's always a relief and in in its sense in general and getting into that mindset a hundred percent is super super valuable

Dr. Andy Roark: No, I think, I think you're spot on and I would say even further, you know, you talked about sort of putting things in writing too. I'll tell you this. I don't think that having stuff in writing matters at all. I mean, if you can make people sign a contract, what are you going to do if they, if their contract says they're going to work for two weeks and they're like, I'm out.

Are you going to sue them? You're going to go get a lawyer for 400 an hour to try to sue them. What do you think you're going to get? Do you going to force them to work at your practice? That's going to go really well. Is that what you want? And it's, it's and again, I think, I'm not saying contracts are unimportant, don't, don't get me wrong, guys. Know that when push comes to shove, they're really only worth what the two people signing them are worth.

Like that, that's, that's what they are. And so even if you have, you can button this up any way you want. In my experience, in my opinion, people are going to do what they want to do, and I, you just can't hold them down, and I think every time I've seen people try, it has gone badly. And so, just being ready to roll with it as gracefully as possible, I think that's, I think that's where we are.

I think it makes some people really mad, but I do think you have to, this is why we talk about Headspace, I do think you have to shift your perspective a little bit and say, look, it's going to happen.

Maria Pirita: yeah

Dr. Andy Roark: try not to take it super personally, try to just roll with it but it, it is, it is going to happen.

Try to assume good intent about people, it's, it's, people are changing in how they communicate, there's some cultural differences. There's, the person who said, I'm giving my two weeks notice, I start my new job tomorrow, like that to me, that was a classic example of someone who, the idea of two weeks hadn't really, Sunk in with them, and it's, you know, I, I don't think you're gonna make that person do anything, and so acceptance here is often, is often the key.

Maria Pirita: totally. I will say that for me as a manager, the purpose of the in writing is only for me to be able to show unemployment later on that this person actually

quit. Because I don't, I don't want them to like later on say, oh they let me go and therefore I have to pay unemployment for this person who chose to go.

So that is usually the purpose for me as a manager to get that in writing. We just always want to make sure we have that in, for, for that, but beyond that, the other thing that I'll mention too is something that I see a lot on social media, and this is a common post that I think a lot of people see, is the fact that, like, companies don't give you a two weeks notice when they fire you and so that is kind of, like, And I'm not saying that that is the right mentality to have because I, for me, and this is kind of going into action steps, but what you can do for me, it was always setting the expectation that like, if I'm going to let you go, it's never going to be a surprise.

So I hope that you can extend that same courtesy to me that if you're leaving, it's not going to be a surprise. And I live by that because I'm all about making sure it's not a surprise if I'm going to let somebody go. However, that is, some of the mentality that we kind of see on social media, and so sometimes the messaging that is out there, and people will tell themselves whatever they want to tell themselves to justify whatever they're doing.

At the end of the day, it's like you said, it does not matter, and it does not help us at all to try and figure out why they're doing it, or to try and get angry about it, just know that as a manager, as a leader, This is gonna happen, and so, there are things we can do preventatively for that, but I think before we get into those action steps, we should probably address the job hopping headspace.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, but, well, I think, I think you're already right into it. I, I really agree with the point about the pushback that I've seen on social media of, they don't give me two weeks when they, when they let me go. I, I do, this, I had this down in Headspace for job hopping, I think the world has changed a lot. I, I really think, I think in the past.

There was a healthier interaction between workers and employers where, again, I think it comes down to in the past, people, they seem to know each other better and we didn't feel like we were a cog in a much bigger machine. I think that a lot of people have had their loyalty sort of taken advantage of.

You know, again, it used to be people, people used to work for companies and they would get pensions and all that stuff has all gone away. And I'm not trying to point fingers and say, Oh, You know, capitalism is bad and corporations are bad, but I do think that things have changed and people have been mistreated by other businesses that they have worked for and I think workers as a group have sort of had their norms kind of shifted.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect employees to be ultra loyal to us and then have us as business owners expect to have them be just replaceable and we, you know, and we, we do layoffs when, when we need that you know, to, to protect our, to protect our business. And again, I, again, I'm really, I probably sound like I'm trying to vilify businesses here, but I'm really not.

I just think that there's been enough of that in the world that a lot of people have internalized that as, that's what a healthy relationship looks like is, I really don't have any loyalty to you, I really don't expect you to have any loyalty to me. I think that's really sad, but I also think that That not having those thoughts or questioning is my loyalty a one way street here or is this being reciprocated?

I think you're a bit naive if you don't have those thoughts. I always hope, and again this is a hope, and this is where I get my feelings hurt. I always hope that I can treat my employees well enough that if they were going to leave, they would still, if they were going to leave and they need to leave, Then, then I expect them to leave.

And you know, and I want what's best for them. I hope that they would have a thought of, how do I leave in a way that doesn't put Andy in the worst position possible? Is there anything I can do to help him as I go? Like, that's what I, I try to treat people in a way that that would be valuable. Again, people, situations and circumstances change at the end of a relationship.

Things always get awkward or rocky. They just, they just kind of do, you know, and so I try not to take it personally, but I think philosophically and from a headspace, I try to treat people in a way that they would feel like I cared about them enough that they would try to care about me on their way out.

But again, you can't, you can't hold yourself to that. You can't. You can't beat yourself up if, if it doesn't go that way. So anyway, but I think your, I think your idea of they wouldn't do it for me, so I'm not gonna do it for them. I hate that that's the mentality that people have. I, I try, I hold myself to a higher standard than that.

But, again, I can't, I, I've found that it's much easier to not hold other people to the same standard that I hold myself. Mm

Maria Pirita: totally. And I think you're so right in, in the fact that like, not to blame or point fingers, but in a way I think we did kind of create this system that we're now seeing. So I will agree that there are extraneous circumstances that I think have led to this, and so some of the job hopping that we'll see is because of COVID or recession, layoffs, that kind of thing.

Like, those are all real things that happened within the last couple of years, and so that's partially to blame. But I do think something that needs to be noted is that we are somewhat responsible for the system only in the sense of the fact that if we look at statistics for more recently, it is the job hoppers that have gotten the larger changes in their salary because they're getting experience somewhere for like a year and a half and now they're more valuable somewhere else. So rather than waiting at year and a half somewhere for a dollar raise They're getting a two dollar raise just by job hopping and instead and so then they're getting experience now at this place and now they're getting a larger raise by job hopping versus than staying in their in their job.

And so like it is now unfortunately this reality that we're seeing I think you're spot on it's partially because of the relationship piece of like where are the benefits and what are the things that we're getting, you know, in this mutual relationship is the loyalty the same way. And so at the end of the day, the loyalty is not going to seem like a two way street.

If they're going to get a bigger pay by moving from job to job versus staying at the, at the same positions over and over again, I think there's also that to, to, that has to be said is that I do think times are changing from extraneous circumstances of society and in the economy. I also think that there is now kind of the system that back in the day, loyalty was a lot more rewarded in different ways, whether it was pensions, whether it was this way that now it's kind of like, well, if you think about the individual themselves.

They actually get more rewards by job 

Dr. Andy Roark: hopping. 

Oh, I love that you said, I love that you put that out. I think that's so smart and it's so empathetic to say, well, why could this be happening in a way that makes sense? And yet, I don't think we can fault people for saying, well, you know, this was an opportunity or I saw this other opportunity. I think it's really smart to, to recognize that that may be what's motivating people.

I think my, my top thing for, for Headspace on the job hopping is assume good intent. Reserve judgment without facts. You know, we look and we see these changes. You're right. You could call out on the pandemic, things like that. You know, there's, there's just things that that happened to people and we really don't know what's going on with anybody.

So I would say, you know, assume, assume good intent. Try it. Try not to jump to conclusions. I think one of my big I use this a lot. I think about employment relationships, like relationships, just metaphorically. It really helps me. And I don't want people to get mad about this. Don't get mad. Please don't get mad. But hear what I'm so angry already. 

Dr. Andy Roark: You haven't even heard it yet. Just 

Maria Pirita: So mad. 

Dr. Andy Roark: wait. If you look at someone's behavior, and the, they have, been job hopping. To me, that's kind of like looking at somebody that I'm thinking about dating and saying, well, this person has a habit of dating people for two or three weeks, and then that relationship ends, and then they date somebody else, and they date somebody else.

It's not bad. I'm not saying that's bad. I'm not casting a spurs. I'm not being, oh, well this person clearly can't have a relationship. I don't, I don't think that that's a, I don't think that's a fair way to look at that, but I also think you would be naive to go into a relationship, date this person who has consistently dated people for two weeks and then the relationship has ended, and not think, well, you know, this, that could be how this goes.

Let's, let's not, let's not be naive here. I'm also saying, I'm not saying, don't date this person. If you know, if things look good and you go, okay, well, you know, this is, this makes sense. Let's try this out again. It's a lot of it is just not judging, but also not going in with blinders on and go, okay, well, let's see how this goes.

And so from a headspace standpoint, I think I look at it a lot like that, you know? 

Maria Pirita: I love, love, love that you said that because I genuinely put in here that, so I put in here in my notes for this person that's kind of just recently hired, you know, this individual that they're kind of like, well, I'm kind of nervous because she had was job hopping tendencies. And so like, I don't know if that's, if you know, that's going to happen here.

One of the things, the things that I put in here is like avoid writing this person off, avoid giving yourself anxiety, don't look for reasons to let this person go, don't avoid training growth opportunities or anything like that. But at the same time, recognize that I called it Schrodinger's clinic because you live in both scenarios.

There is a possibility that this person could quit on you pretty soon. There's also a possibility that this person might have not had great leadership that talked to her about where she was going and things like that. And until you actually have it, and you kinda live in both scenarios. So I would absolutely be investing into retention with this person having, you know, and that's kind of getting into action steps.

But I would also be looking at active recruiting and hiring, because that's just also part of the scenario we live in today in VetMed, is that we are not passively recruiting anymore. We're actively recruiting. And so right now you kind of live in this Schrodinger clinic in which both realities could be very true.

And you should prepare for both realities in general.

Dr. Andy Roark: No, I, I think you're right. One of my big pieces of advice that I give to leaders, and this is just lessons I learned the hard way, I truly believe, Maria, that you should not do anything for your employees based on some idea you have about what they're going to do for you in the future. Like I just I think that that's I think that that's true I think you should do for them today because you think this is the right thing to do today. You should invest in people not because you believe that they're going to stick around for years because you did this for them.

I think that's an unhealthy way to look at it I think you're gonna be disappointed You should invest in them because you have chosen to have a clinic that invests in its patients people and you draw satisfaction today from making the investment and living your values and making the workplace that you want to make.

If someone goes to the training and they leave, I don't, I don't think that you should let that wreck you. I think it would, it will, it's going to happen.

Maria Pirita: Yep.

Dr. Andy Roark: should not be something that you say, I was a fool. I did this and I thought this person would stay on forever. And again, I would say that to, I'd say that to, to, to other people as well.

If you're an employee. And you think that by sacrificing yourself and sacrificing yourself, you're going to get appreciated and you're going to get promoted or paid better in the future. I would encourage you not to do that. I've just, I've found that it just, it doesn't, it doesn't work. If you want to sacrifice yourself because you find meaning and fulfillment and purpose in that, then you should do it.

If you want to sacrifice yourself because you enjoy your work, and sometimes we work hard, then then do it. If you want to sacrifice because you want to help the rest of the team and if you peace out at the end of this shift, they're going to be really shorthanded and you really don't have anywhere to go, then, then do it.

But don't be resentful later on if it doesn't turn into something. Just do it today based on, on what's in front of you and be happy about what was done. And so the same, the same thing is true here with the with the job hopping. I don't, Don't invest into your people because you think that they're going to behave in a certain way in the future.

Invest in them because you think it's the right thing to do. And that brings me sort of the end of the headspace for me, and I think you really kind of brought this around very nicely, is the ultimate outcome in headspace for me is to recognize that I cannot control what other people do, that I'm going to assume the best about people, and I am going to try to set myself up so that my business and myself are as taken care of as possible regardless of what people do.

So if they stay, great. If they don't stay, that's a bummer. We are equipped for this. We have not put ourselves in a position where we're going to be absolutely devastated. I know that's really hard when it's hard to hire. I know that's really hard if you're already shorthanded. It's not fun. All you can do is your best, knowing that there are a lot of things that are outside of your control.

You wanna take a break and then we'll get into action steps?

Maria Pirita: Yeah, it Hey guys just want to jump in real quick. Are you a lead technician? Are you lead CSR or you lead kennel staff or kennel tech guys? The uncharted team leads summit is upon us and registration is open Team leads. Summit is on September. The 18th is a virtual events. 

You don't have to travel to do it. It's a one day program guys. It's for anybody who is a team lead guys, I'm going to be speaking this year. I am doing my Jedi mind trick, how to get doctors to do what you want. Sarah Parsons is going to be here talking about boosting morale. The one and only Maria preta is going to be doing conflict management, mastering mediation. 

That's when you're stuck in between two of your people say that you're the lead tech and you've got. Two technicians aren't getting along and you have to mediate this conversation and get them working together. That's what Maria is going to be doing Tyler Grogan and vet tech, Kelsey, or Kelsey, Beth carpenter are going to be doing, becoming the coach, not the referee. 

As you can tell, this is absolutely jam packed with workshops and sessions that are going to be fantastic for our team leads. Guys. This is generally the biggest virtual event that we run an unchartered is going to be popular. Go ahead, bust on over to uncharted vet.com. I'll put a direct link down in the show notes, get registered and be there. 

It is going to be a fantastic time. Registration is now open. Remember the summit is on September the 18th. Let's get back into this episode. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Alright, let's do some action steps. Why don't you, what have you got to start us off with?

Maria Pirita: Okay. So the first one that I had here in general. was to really look at your hiring protocol. The reason why was because I think, I think they, this person said it in their original post of I didn't ask this question at the time of the interview because it felt awkward for me to ask this question about, about this job hopper when it comes to the job hopper in general.

And so, I think for me would be to really look at my hiring protocol for two reasons. One, it sounds like, you know, you might be in general nervous about this person leaving and so for me sometimes I like, I'm a big advocate for active like recruiting all the time because you never know when your next great person is going to be and this is a great time to look at your hiring protocol.

I think when it comes to that specific scenario, some of the questions that I kind of use during the interview when I see somebody that's like a job hopper, which I think sometimes that's the awkwardness of like, how do you is like questions like what prompted you to make a move from this position to that position you're currently in, right?

To try and gather some of that information, what would you say is the main reason you left, you know, your last three clinics? And the reason why is because I'm looking for, I'm looking to really find out, why this person has the history that they do. So I talked to you a little bit about how I was a manager at a pizza place once.

It was a college town. And so oftentimes you had job hoppers on that on those applications. And so really talking at some, it was as simple as like I went to school. And so I work here during the summer and I work here during the winter. And so I think when you are in certain areas, we have to also recognize that.

So like if we are in a school area where people are constantly moving and that means that they're, you know, there's some job hopping is that, but the only way you're going to find out about a candidate during the interview of why the reasons are is to really ask about it. And the same thing I think goes for when you're addressing, addressing it in the hiring piece.

So you can absolutely kind of. address the elephant and ask for a commitment and I'm not saying like get it in writing or and Have this contract because I think like you said earlier There's no way that you're gonna be able to hold somebody accountable, but it's totally okay to ask and say hey You know, you're one of my top candidates looking for this position I'm a little concerned about investing six to twelve months of training just given the fact that you had, you know, two years So I'm really looking for somebody who's going to make a commitment to stay here for, you know, two to three years.

Is that something that you'd be willing to do? Like, tell me a little bit about that. You know, if we hired you, could you make that happen? Do you think that's a commitment that you can make happen? And so I'm not really asking for it in writing. I'm not asking for a contract, but I am setting the expectation with this person during the hiring interview of, hey, you know, I'm going to hire you.

I plan on investing in you, and I want you to stick around for a certain amount of time. Would, is that something that you would do? Because the truth is, this person could be somebody who values, you know, the change. Like, what if this person genuinely just loves you? The change every couple of years and they tell you right then and there, you know, I don't think I can do that maybe they're you know in the middle of moving again all of these different reasons why they couldn't but like just asking and making sure because what I'm looking for is setting the expectation and getting that commitment even if it is just Verbally not saying that's gonna work 100 percent of the time because there are people that can say yes I can make that commitment and then life happens like we talked about The people getting raptured and all of these different things that could happen, you know, not to say that it's it But for me it is about setting expectations and I think in your hiring protocol is the first place where you can set that expectation

Dr. Andy Roark: You know, one of the things I love about working with you is you are so good at demonstrating language of how you ask the question and how you say these things, and I just, I think you're so spot on. I, same thing for me. I said, the top of my list for action steps was number one is, is get curious and, and, and ask the questions.

I really do think that that's the right way the right way to approach it. I don't know if it's a cultural thing in that I was raised in the South, so I grew up in North Carolina. Yeah. And manners are very important. And there were, there were questions that you just didn't ask people. And you always wanted to be kind of polite And, 

Maria Pirita: you are very polite

Dr. Andy Roark: And it's, I have learned as I've gotten older, people are actually much more open to questions, direct questions than, than I kind of thought they were. I think how you phrase it is really, really important. I thought you did that really, really well. I think the way that I would probably approach it.

Yes, I loved your especially the part about commitment and say, Hey, we're looking for someone. Can you commit to that? Ah, Maria, such a such a great approach. I think for me, my thoughts would be, I try to get curious about these past jobs and say, Tell me about what did you like about this job? What did you not like about this job?

And hopefully they're going to tell me a story that's kind of consistent. I would love if they said, I really love this job. But then I, you know, then I went back to school. And then when I got out, I felt like it was time to do something different. Or I didn't see opportunities to for development in any of these jobs.

I was like, okay, or they said I wanted to develop, but then I didn't get a chance to move up. And I'm like, you were there six months. And then at least I know kind of where their heads at and I can, I can take with that and do with it as, as I will. But, but I really think a lot of times they're not awkward ways to ask about the previous jobs that maybe aren't, you seem to be job hopping.

Can you convince me that it's not true? I think that there's other ways to sort of dig into it. I think you're spot on My next one is on board strategically and I think you already started to get into this which is ask him about the commitment and say You know, we're looking at 6 to 12 months of training to bring somebody on Can can you can you commit to this i'm going to go back to my romantic relationship metaphor and sort of say I don't want to get married on the first date.

I'm up to bringing this person on. Let's try this out. Let's try to onboard things like that. I'm not going to bring them in and immediately enroll them in. You know, in, in college and pick up tuition, the tuition bill, like that's not, that's not a, it's not a first week kind of thing. Let's see how, let's see how this goes, but let's bring in and let's start, let's do some phase training where if they bounce after a week, and a lot of people will, a lot of people come in, it may be their first vet job.

They're like, I did not know it was like this, and I'm going to be out of here. I think there's some value to just letting people get their feet wet and starting to give them the basics and bring them along and see what their aptitudes are and see what their commitment level is. And again, I'm not trying to stall people out.

But you can be smart in how you invest into people. Just like you would in a relationship. I'm not giving you the keys to my apartment on the, on the first night and introducing you to my parents. It's, it's, it's going to take a while before we go down that road and make that investment. So anyway, I think, I think just being smart is, is key.

Maria Pirita: I love that so much. I think that is so smart, especially that onboarding piece is, it's so crucial to like how we are gonna set this relationship, right? Like, and go back to the dating metaphor, a lot of times the first dates is where we're getting to know each other, like what is our favorite colors, how to, but we're also observing And so I think that that's where we kind of let a lot of expectations go.

So I joke around that like, on my first date with my husband, I was like, two minutes late, five minutes late, or something like that. And he was like, yeah, she's gonna be late every time. And I'm just like, yeah, I am gonna be, it's fine. And so, A hundred percent to this day, like, I am the one in the relationship that is usually running late.

And so, and he keeps me on time, which is a great partnership. But at the end of the day, that is kind of what we are seeing in those first couple of weeks. And so for me, one of the action steps was also live and breathe your handbook, right? And so Stephanie Goss, you know, making it into the podcast, like, what does your handbook say?

But But at the end of the day that onboarding piece is when your handbook first gets put out there and you can 100 percent set the expectation there about, you know, when it is time to leave and like what the company expects for quitting. And so all companies are not the same. You know, like not every company, two weeks is enough time.

You can absolutely put your expectations on. It doesn't mean that they're going to follow it, but it does help to set the expectation like this is what we all do. And then also talking about it regularly in the sense of like. I shared the story about how, you know, I, I made it very well on my team that like, It's never going to be a surprise if you get let go from me.

Like, we are going to talk about it well in advance. And so I asked for that same courtesy. We talked about that. I also talked to them about, like, I don't fire people. Technically they fire themselves because I give them the resources that they need. And so, like, all of those things are always things that we talked about.

We talked about our handbook regularly. You know, whether it was about that, whether it was the, you know, holidays, the bonuses, the breaks, however all of those things work, but the truth is if you're just giving your people a handbook and being like, read this by the end of the day today, and then having them sign a piece of paper, I'm telling you most of those people are not reading the handbook.

They're just signing the piece of paper and saying that they read the handbook. So. A look at your onboarding piece. Are you giving people the time that they need to go through the main pieces of your handbook? Some managers, they will give them time to read it. And then afterwards they just pinpoint those important pieces towards that handbook of like, what is acceptable?

What is not acceptable? And they just go through those important pieces. Some. You know, like I said some, I believe we should be talking about our handbook regularly. Not saying that you're talking about quitting regularly, because it's gonna get, that'll be a little too much. But it is important to live and breathe your handbook and know, and give people those expectations when it comes to quitting or giving notice and things like

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I think you're, I think you're right on with this. I think we sort of evolved the conversation now from the hiring part into the, into the managing of people part. And so I think I would pull from that area of our playbook a lot is that, you know, our writer has made the commitment to this person and they're nervous. You're in it now, and again, it 

Maria Pirita: Yeah. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Other than the change in resumes, which we didn't really ask about, you know, we decided to hire this person, and now we're in it. And so just lean into the things that we would do to be a good employer and to get the most out of the people who work for us, right? So just start off trying to understand what motivates this person, what do they value, what makes them feel fulfilled, how do they feel appreciated, and just start to try to Get those things.

And a lot of times, you know, maybe this person was engaged in their previous jobs. Maybe they weren't. Maybe they were managed well. Maybe they weren't. Maybe they had opportunities. Maybe they didn't. I can't control any of that. All I can say now is let's just start with a clean slate. What does this person care about?

What are they motivated by? What gets them excited? What what are their aptitudes? What are they good at? And let's just go ahead and start leaning into that. Let's try to help them have a good workplace experience like we do with all of our people. Let's lean into positive reinforcement training.

Let's start celebrating them patting on the back, you know, celebrating the things they do well, as opposed to being silent until they mess up. Just all those things that we want to see that are good employee motivators and keep people engaged. Just just lean into that. Give them the opportunity to have a healthy workplace culture to be a part of.

And this is the part that you and I take ownership of, right, is to say, I can't make this person stay. I can. My power here is I can do everything I can to try to help us have a good culture in the practice, and to protect that culture in the practice. And really, Not focusing on the individuals, but focusing on the team and the workplace culture and how we communicate and what it's like to be in this building.

That is the most powerful control that I have. And again, people are going to leave because they're going to leave. Really, all I can do the best is to try to find balance for everybody so that everybody gets taken care of as well as possible. And in a way that is balanced between the doctors, the staff, the patients, the clients, you know, the ownership management.

Things like that. And so just, just lean into that and try to try to make it a healthy workplace.

Maria Pirita: I love that so much because absolutely, in my notes I had work on your retention strategy. So I believe that we should always work on our retention strategy in general because it's what's good for the business. We know that it costs us way more to hire somebody than it is to keep them, right? So we should try to always have our finger or our eyes on retention in general.

And some of those action steps in there Go in line with what you just said. I had one on ones being a big one in here of like having regular discussions with this person to talk about the future, like what, what, what motivates this person? Like you just said, you know, all of those things. I had engagement surveys as also a great action step.

Like if you don't already have something like that to really try and figure out like where people are, are sitting. Another action step for like your retention strategy in general that I think we forget about is there are retention stats that we can kind of look at for our practice. And this is really good for those practice managers that are really into numbers.

But in general, there are turnover calculators, so you can actually pump and, and I can link it in the show notes, but there are some where you can just pump in your numbers for your own clinic and get your turnover rate, and then try to improve that number. There is also like. Callouts, we've had one of our very good friend, Jen Galvin, talks a lot about how she, you know, measures callouts because if there's a lot of it, that might be a sign of people being burnt out or being tired.

So there are some stats that you can kind of use to kind of track retention in general. And then the last thing I had on, on your retention strategy piece is to really ask the team for help in general. Like, Ask them like what helps them stay on board? How, what would they like to see? What kind of, A lot of times, you know, we want to do more for our teams and we're like, I'm gonna add this benefit and I'm gonna add this benefit and they're gonna love it.

And then managers get super shocked when they don't love it. And the reason is because maybe that wasn't as important of a benefit for them. You know, because they already have that somewhere else. And so sometimes we can involve our teams in the retention strategy in general. and I think that that's kind of really getting their, their ideas and like, what, what would you like to see here?

What would you like for us to invest in you in general? It's can, it can be very, very powerful. And then the last thing about retention strategy, if this person doesn't already do exit interviews, you know, you, they mentioned like, Being a little scared of the email piece. If you really do want like some more face to face time for people that are quitting, exit interviews are an excellent place to kind of really find out like.

You know what was going on with that person I think exit interviews are really good only if you have built that relationship ahead of time though with like honest You know transparency one on ones all of those things There are a lot of managers that say that they feel like they don't get as much benefit from there an exit interview because people aren't As honest and so you are gonna get that some people are not gonna be as honest during exit interviews And some people are gonna be honest I think a lot of that is dependent on all of the steps you took prior to that in your retention strategy how often you talked about future steps, you know, how often you had one on ones and engagement service surveys and things like that.

And the last thing that I'll say about this is don't be afraid to talk about where they're going to move on to. I think for all, so many of us, we focus on our like, oh, you're just going to work here forever. And I don't even want to talk about you leaving one day because you're going to work here forever.

And that's not that realistic actually. And so if anything, having a conversation about like, hey, Where would you like to be? And knowing like, oh, this person's really motivated by specialty, so let's set her up to go to specialty because at the end of the day, even if this person that you just hired is a job hopper and is leaving in two years, they're gonna share their experience, how their experience was at your clinic, with other people.

And so the best thing that you can do is make those two years Extremely, you know beneficial for them just from a regular management perspective of trying to do the right thing But also knowing that like it will have its own benefits, even if it is. Oh, hey, I worked at this one clinic It's right by you.

You should work there too because they really work on their people for a b c d, you know Um and things like that. So I would I would try and any of those. In my retention strategy

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, you use the term retention strategy and it always makes me laugh. Because it's such corporate lingo. You know what 

Maria Pirita: I know 

Dr. Andy Roark: it's just, it's how you treat people. It's how you, it's, you know what I 

Maria Pirita: It is. 

Dr. Andy Roark: run your business. Well, you know, part of our retention strategy is regular, you know, one on ones and feedback.

And I'm like, that's just, I never think of that as retention strategy. I'm like, that's just how you get things done is, you meet with people and you talk to them about how things are going and you're transparent. But, but it's true. It's, everything you say is true. It's just funny for me to tag it. I don't even think about retention strategy. I think about, I think about workplace culture. I'm like, all of that to 

Maria Pirita: A hundred percent.

Dr. Andy Roark: workplace culture. And if you build a great culture, then your retention strategy is, your retention strategy should always be, we're going to make an awesome place to work. As good as it can possibly be to work here, that's how good we want to make it.

And if you do that, your intention strategy is taken care of. And so I think that that's, I think that that's true. I think I think all this is good. I think basically run, run the business that you feel good about, that you want to run. Take good care of your people overall. Build a good culture. And hopefully you will be able to keep them.

I think we talked a little bit about exit interviews. I think that may be another episode at some point. We should just talk about it. There's a lot of caveats. I think they're worth doing. I don't personally put a lot of stock in them just because I've seen so many different ways that they've, they've been sort of disappointing to me in my career.

There are some people who, who say some things that are valuable, but I honestly, I think for most of the value of got out of exit interviews, Maria, It's been kind of like what you said before about I don't want people to know if their job is going to end because we've had this open dialogue.

I feel like a lot of people are really good at giving an open dialogue when they're not happy. And so it's, to me, I just, maybe it's different in bigger organizations. I'm rarely surprised. If someone is unhappy and they come and they say I'm leaving there are some people I guess who would show up and say I'm Unhappy and I'm like, why didn't you tell me but I think for the most part we kind of know that people aren't happy It's also there's a lot of people who are smart and that they know that their reputation matters and that you never know What twists and turns will be in the road?

And so they want to make sure that doors are open for them and they're not going to upset anybody So there's limited I think used to the exit interviews as opposed to what people would like for us to believe. Anyway, that's it. Remember that you can't control other people and you can only manage what they give to you.

You're in this now. You've hired this person. Just treat them well. Bring them along like you would another employee. Focus on making your practice great. On treating all of your employees the same. You know what I mean? As far as making sure everybody's got, got good opportunities. Communicate. Take feedback.

Make your people feel heard. Overall, it's gonna, it's gonna work out as well as it possibly can. Make sure that you're never dependent and reliant on one person. You should not have a business that is dependent on Karen showing up every day. And if she doesn't, we're all screwed.

Maria Pirita: One last thing that I'll say is that The original writer said that they sometimes are afraid to check their email because they're like, I don't know what's gonna happen in there next you could always try to make sure your email has other things in there So it's not always just people quitting and so that's what I would do in that scenario Is that try to encourage email use so that it's a lot more positive and so that hopefully you're getting positive news in your email also a lot of times my email was like You know, those good, feel goods from clients that were reviews because they would get forwarded to me automatically. Do what you need to do, but don't be afraid of your email. It is, it is a good one. 

Dr. Andy Roark: I mean, if they're gonna quit, they're gonna quit. It's not, it's not about your, it's not about your email, but I do get, but sometimes I, I take this as a, as a metaphorical point. And just that, boy, it feels like when it rains, it pours. You know what I mean? I'm like, there have been times when every time I've opened my email, something terrible was inside, and it's gone on for a month, and I don't know why it happens.

Yeah, I, I think, I think that not, not checking your email is not gonna, not gonna make it go away. But anyway, I hope things turn around.

Maria Pirita: Yeah, I'm excited. This was fun,

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's all I got. Anything else from you?

Maria Pirita: No, I think that's it. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, guys, thanks for tuning in, everybody. Thanks for being here. Maria, I'll talk to you guys soon.

Maria Pirita: Bye everyone!

Dr. Andy Roark: and that's what I got for you guys Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for hanging out. Thanks to Maria Perita for being here Remember if you are a team lead at your practice or you know a team lead at a practice Is send them the link for the uncharted team lead summit Remember it is a virtual event is a one day event all about being a team lead It is on september the 18th details at unchartedvet.com. Direct link in the show notes. I hope to see some of you guys there. Take it easy everybody. I'll talk to you later

This Practice Manager, like many, is not looking forward to letting someone at their practice go but what makes this particularly challenging is that this person has already expressed financial concerns. This week, Stephanie Goss is joined by Rebecca Rose, an RVT, CCC (Certified Career Coach), and CPEP (Certified Peaceful Euthanasia Professional), as they discuss how to navigate this conversation. With over 40 years of experience, Rebecca shares her insights on dealing with layoffs, the importance of employee handbooks, and maintaining a compassionate yet professional demeanor during challenging discussions. They also explore the emotional aspects of leadership and provide practical tips for handling tough conversations with empathy and clarity.

Rebecca Rose's impressive career spans nearly four decades, during which she has managed veterinary clinics, collaborated with industry partners, authored articles and books, and facilitated engaging team workshops. Recently appointed to the Colorado State Board of Veterinary Medicine as one of the first RVT Members, Rebecca's enthusiasm for professional development is contagious. She is dedicated to supporting veterinary teams in reaching their highest potential and believes in building a healthy, sustainable career in veterinary medicine through memorable storytelling and interactive courses.

Rebecca's extensive experience and dedication make her the perfect guest for this episode, offering valuable advice on handling difficult conversations and supporting veterinary teams with empathy and professionalism. Let's get into this episode…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Episode Transcript

Andy Roark: Hey everybody. I am Dr. Andy Roark, and this is the Uncharted veterinary Podcast guys. I'm not on this podcast episode today. It is my friend, Stephanie Goss and Rebecca Rose. They are doing a communication, uh, podcasts. I was gonna say a communication breakdown, but like they're breaking down communication, not they're having a communication breakdown. So the question the mailbag today is about, unfortunately, laying someone off, we have a practice that is overstaffed and they have to let someone go the person they are going to lay off has some financial problems is not going to be super easy for them. 

And so there are, there's some difficulties and then obviously there's emotions about having to let someone go, especially because, you know, we're, we're not the practice isn't profitable as opposed to there's some sort of a performance problem or things like that. And so anyway, there's a lot of emotions mixed up in this. 

We Rebecca and Stephanie get down nicely into how to have these conversations and how to set them up and how to execute them really well. And so, anyway, that's what this episode is all about. Let's get into it.

Stephanie Goss:  And we are back. It's me, Stephanie Goss, and this week I am joined by a very special guest. I have the pleasure of being joined today by Rebecca Rose, who is an RVT. Let me see if I get all your initials right. You are an RVT. You are a CCC, which is a Certified Career Coach, a CPEP, which is a certified professional euthanasia professional.

No, certified peaceful euthanasia professional. It's too, too many letters. Is that all the letters, Rebecca, or do you have more

Rebecca Rose: That, that's enough. You know, after being in the community for over 37 years, we can just say that I've graduated from the College of Hard Knocks, and I have a certificate in probably Hard Knocks.

Stephanie Goss: So I am super excited to have you on the podcast today. So you and I have known each other. We were just talking about this because you were a founding member of Uncharted. You came to our very first conference back in 2017 when Uncharted was just an Andy Roark and team dream brought to life.

And I had heard you speak prior to that, but I think that was the first time that we actually met. And I'm super excited because you have had quite the career and I'll let you introduce yourself so I don't screw up any of your bio details, but you are back doing Some speaking work and you are actually gonna be with us for our Get Shit Done conference in October virtually which I'm super excited about because I think it is coming full circle to have you back. So tell us tell everybody who's listening a little bit about yourself

Rebecca Rose: Stephanie, well, thanks for having me and the entire Uncharted team having me back, even in that capacity of speaking. Oh, it's where I find my greatest joy is connecting with team members, all team members and helping them that see that light go on, especially in the hard soft skills.

So that's where I kind of really thrive. But back to my career, yeah, it's been pretty long and diverse in that. I've been a registered or a credentialed veterinary technician for 37 years. I graduated from Colorado Mountain College in 1987. Y'all can do the math. That's a long time. But very few technicians can say that almost four decades. 

Stephanie Goss: Yeah. That's really, really impressive.

Rebecca Rose: Yeah. And considering our field of veterinary technology is very young, I've been a part of it for a long part of that. So, but in that time I truly have done most everything there is to do. 

Stephanie Goss: That's amazing.

Rebecca Rose: Thank you, Stephanie. 

Stephanie Goss: like, think, just think about the changes that we've had technology wise and medicine wise. I think even just in the last five years since COVID, we've made leaps and bounds as a profession, but, when you step back and think about your career spanning almost four decades, like that has got to be such a really a beautiful thing to look at the changes to medicine that we've had in the last, in the last 37 years.

Rebecca Rose: Oh yeah. It's mind boggling. It's mind blowing. So if I think about me as that younger veterinary technician, that younger professional, I In the mid 1980s and the end of the 1980s. Yeah, so much different. And I have a difficult time saying, you know, I don't want to put on that, that, well, I remember when all the time, but I do, I do. 

Stephanie Goss: I love it.

Rebecca Rose: I worked 13 years in mixed animal practice after graduating, so that, that takes us up to the two thousands, the millennium. And then at that point in time, I started working for the technician association and the medical association in Colorado. And that's when I learned, wow, there were like so many things we can do with our careers and was truly the catalyst for my career choices for veterinary technicians. And this was published by AAHA and then it was updated in 2013. So now it needs to have another one, but who's got the time? I need help with that. 

Stephanie Goss: An update. Yeah.

Rebecca Rose: yeah. So as a veterinary technician, we can work in industry. I have, I've done that. I've worked with. nonprofits. I've worked with low incomes. I've worked, I've coached and consulted with veterinary teams all over the United States. And I have yet to see a ceiling in my career after forty years, I'm going to be staying in it until I'm walking around with a cane and you guys got to push me off of the stage cause I'm no longer relevant for one, but I just love what I do. If you can't tell Stephanie.

Stephanie Goss: I love it so, so much. And I think one of the things that I love about you, the very first time I met you, you just have this infectious, positive energy about you and you're, and I don't mean in the like, hyper golden retriever. I'm just gonna like excite all over you way because I feel like that's not you either. You just have this great calm energy and I think the positivity that you bring to the profession is so so important for technicians, but also paraprofessionals in general to recognize like our careers in practice can be can be very multifaceted.

And just because we decide to make a change or because something doesn't work out or because we decide we're ready to go in a new direction, it doesn't mean that it's the end of your career in vet med. Like you, there is life after private practice. There is life after practice in general. And also sometimes that looks like being in practice again, and sometimes it looks different.

And I just love that there's so many different options and that you have been willing to explore that and work with teams and really all the members of the team in terms of growing those soft skills and know, helping prepare them for the things that we have to do in our job. And that's a little bit about you're going to be joining us in October and you're going to be talking about hard conversations.

And Maria and I were talking about some podcast stuff, and we had a question that came up, in the mailbag that made me think of you because it is truly about having a hard conversation. And so I thought, let's have Rebecca come and let's talk through you know, as people who work in the space of soft skills, communication, hard conversations, the emotions of veterinary medicine, like, let's talk about how to have this conversation.

So we had a practice manager who was like, Hey, you know, we're really busy practice, but I've come to the point budgetarily where I'm overstaffed and I'm going to have to lay someone off. And so it's this person's first time actually having to lay someone off. So they're struggling with the emotions of that in general.

And when they step back and looked at the team, there is one person on the team who is the least fitting person in terms of skill and culture. And so they made the decision that is the person that makes the most sense to be laid off. However it's the right reasons for the practice, but it's also the person on a personal level that this is going to hit the hardest.

This is someone who has a lot of challenges in their personal life and who is has money challenges that they have been honest about and open about with their team. And so this leader is facing having this hard conversation to not only lay someone off for the first time, but do it for someone on their team who is really struggling in their personal life.

And they know that. And so they are really struggling to know, how do I have the conversation? Do I do something to try and help them get through it? Like, do I give them you know, extra notice and let them work for a few more weeks to try and find a job since I'm not, firing them? I'm just having to lay them off because we're overstaffed.

Do I give them some sort of severance pay? Like, what do I do? And I love the question because they were asking it from such a great perspective of, Hey, I've never done this before. And I want to make sure that I cover my bases legally, that I don't do anything that's gonna, you know, put my butt on the line in terms of setting a precedent that maybe I can't walk back from or doing something inappropriate from an HR perspective, but really the crux of where they were coming from is, hey, I know that this is going to be hard for this person and It's probably going to hit them out of the blue because I'm not firing them.

This is a layoff and what do I do? Especially when I know these things about them on a personal level and I know that they're struggling mental health wise. And so I don't like, I feel torn between what I know is the right thing to do for a business and what I know might not be the right thing on a personal level.

Rebecca Rose: Yes.

Stephanie Goss: And I just thought that this was such a great question because talk about a hard conversation, right? 

Rebecca Rose: Yeah. 

Stephanie Goss: This is probably the ultimate hard conversation. 

Rebecca Rose: Yeah. So you're going to, you're going to have to help me, Stephanie. All right. So help me remember that I've got like three parts to this, right? So there's first let's talk about veterinary practice managers. They don't want to lay people off. It's one of the most difficult things. It just pulls on my heartstrings when we, when you tossed out that question, cause I've got stories about that.

And then how is this laid out in the employee handbook, the legal aspect of it. And then you know, how can we. Move forward and come up with, helping for when the next time this happens and heaven, I mean, holy cow, how many times do we hear right now that there's a team overstaffed?

Stephanie Goss: Right? Well, and that's, that's, I think that's probably part of the emotional, like, from a headspace perspective, that's probably part of the emotional piece for this practice leader because it is, You know, it's certainly something that I think I know I faced in my career, but it's been a long time.

Like most people are really struggling. And we've also seen a slowdown in the industry. There are parts of the country where we have started to see significant recession and significant slowdown. And then we also have parts of the country where it is still absolutely bedlam and they are completely understaffed and underprepared for the volume of work that's coming in the clinic doors.

And so I think there are a lot of leaders out there looking around going, am I the only one who is feeling this? And so to your point, like that's, that's validating the scenery for you that yes, your peers are also going through the same thing that there are, you know, there are definitely challenges and I think, too, just from an emotional perspective, like, recognizing that it's never, it's never easy.

Like, even if we do all the right things, and we work really, really, really hard, sometimes we can't control that. 

Rebecca Rose: So let's, let's talk about that idea too, that it's never the right time. And it's always going to create hardship, even when you've taken the time that someone on your team you've been working with and coaching through, and you've seen some of these challenges that they have, and they're not hidden to that peak performance.

And yet things still aren't, they're not meeting those expectations of work, right? Totally different expectations of work. Very strong, valid, defined versus expectations of another relationship as an example. So we're here in a work relationship, which is very different. And yes, we understand that I mean, there's so many different instances.

I'm thinking back when I've had to hire people and it's like, well, it's Thanksgiving. I can't hire now. We're going into Thanksgiving or fire them rather, or I can't fire them now. They've just had a loss of their family or whatever the reason is. So that's always going to be there. Unfortunately, right? As practice managers, we don't wake up in the morning and go, woo-hoo who do I get to fire today?

That is like the hardest thing we have to do and we lament and we stress and we put it off for as long as we can to the usually the detriment of the rest of the team. Oftentimes I'll walk into a veterinary hospital when I was doing more coaching and consulting and that was a big deal, right? Saying I have one or two members on my team.

They have great skills, but their people skills suck and they just create all of this turmoil and I've been coaching and all of them. I'm like, okay, let's sit down here. Let's get really real. This has not to do with laying off. That's another conversation, which remind me we have to go to those team members, the two in this example, because whatever reason those expectations are not being met and you have coached them through it and yes, it is time to leave and it's time to sever those ties.

I think some of the quotes that I often hear is like. Fire quickly, hire slowly. Good. Those are good things. Good. That's a good quote to live by because what you're doing is when you have those two of maybe a team of 20 or however many big, right? You're disrespecting all the others. And you have to keep that in mind.

Me keeping these other two that are not at meeting these expectations. And I have all these other people that are meeting these expectations. I'm disrespecting them. And when I showed that and put that into perspective for practice managers, they're like, not that I have to always be right. That is a way of looking at it.

So this idea of a layoff is so much different. Still very difficult. So when I, if I were to be sitting with that practice manager right now or that team leader who's going through this, I'd have to ask, alright, I have to lean on, what does your employee handbook say?

Right. Because in your employee handbook,

Stephanie Goss: You're stealing, you're stealing my line, Rebecca.

Rebecca Rose: What does it say? Right. We have to go there first. This helps, helps us to separate a little bit. And she explains those expectations of the work environment that we've created, the culture that we've created. I used to go in and create handbooks for veterinary hospitals all over the United States.

Magnificent tool underutilized. underutilized during onboarding or whatever. But again, we're talking about a layoff.

In your employee handbook, does it discuss a layoff? And at time of onboarding and hiring, does your team, is your team required to read it? Not that they, not that you go through with page by page, they're required to read it generally.

If I'm working with a team and I'm onboarding them, I'm like, okay guys, the two of you just got hired and guess what we're doing this afternoon. We're going through the employee handbook. Woohoo. I'm not going to go through all 10, 26, 34 pages. It doesn't matter. But I, as the practice manager, I am a, as a team lead, I really want you to know and understand these six things.

highly important, crucial parts of our relationship together to include the idea of 

Stephanie Goss: is that, because I, I love, I love this point. Like, everybody who listens to the podcast, I think, knows how much I love, a good handbook and it's so, so critical. And one of the things that we just did this last year in our Uncharted Community was take members, we did a small challenge group and we challenged ourselves to, over the course of the year, work through the handbook from start to finish.

And so we got together regularly, we worked on different sections. When you say, how does it address layoffs, I think that that's one of those sections that, you know, we don't really think about most of us because, you know, it's, it's like, okay, we think about the big things, like, what is our code of conduct?

You know, we have a drug free work policy. We think about things like that that are really the obvious. 

Rebecca Rose: coming back to this idea, what's in the employee handbook? And if it's not in the employee handbook, okay, well, there's an actionable item for next time. When we are updating this employee handbook now, it's going to include that layoff piece.

Stephanie Goss: you know, the, one of the questions that's being asked here is like, okay, This leader selected a team member for layoff based on looking at the whole team, looking at fit, looking at skill, looking at culture, right?

So they really were looking at it from a very well balanced holistic way and made the decision that this is the person that has to go. And when I think about a handbook, I think about it being the thing that helps guide us as leaders and managers so that it helps make the, the unknown for team members less arbitrary, right?

And so where I, where I was thinking you were going to go with it was like, okay, it's, you never know when layoffs are going to happen. And so it's really hard to have, how do you write a policy about that? But the things I would think about are like, how do we decide who gets laid off and who doesn't, like, what does that look like?

So that it isn't just. Well, I woke up today and I decided you're the person who's going to get laid off, right? That it has a sense of, is it, is it longevity of employment? Is it fit and skill assessments? Is it a, you know what, it could look a bunch of different ways. And as always, like we should, I think you and I would both agree.

When you're doing your handbook, have an employment attorney review it, because you need to make sure that it's valid for your state and your local municipalities. And at the same time, it should be that litmus test to let your team know, hey, this is what I can expect from you as my employer.

Rebecca Rose: Absolutely. It is the litmus test. It is that guide for both employees and leadership. It is such a wonderful tool. And that's where I was going to is that is, is in these circumstances for this practice manager, she had to lean on past experiences of here's my team, here's my rock stars. Here's my people that aren't so much rock stars of that.

Who, whom can I choose to let go? God, that's the hardest part? But there was probably something in her background. There could have been documentation comes back that idea of I'm having a conversation with you and I'm documenting it regardless of if there was disciplinary actions or not. But because of these reasons and with a layoff there technically really doesn't have to be because we are at will states.

So, um, it's a tough one at will state. Let's talk about that. Stephanie. So an at will state says that there's no contract here and I can let anybody go without cause

Stephanie Goss: Right,

Rebecca Rose: I'm gonna you know as a

Stephanie Goss: right, at any time,

Rebecca Rose: As a practice manager, if I let somebody go and then they come back to me and want unemployment, well, then I have to prove that right.

But under these instances, I would definitely have to lean on me at will. The only state that's not at will is Montana to my best of knowledge. And I think they were trying to change that, but I don't, I don't know where that's good. 

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, I think, so I think your, I think your point about what does the handbook say is a great a great point, and it's a, it should be where we start, right? Like, what, what expectation, Because I love that you tied it, it's a completely different scenario, right, from the employee who has documented performance problems and you've coached them and you've done the whole, and you're firing them.

That is very different. And the similarities, and I love that you tied it to that because the handbook really allows you to, It allows the employees in your team to know what to expect from you as an employer, and it allows them to say, Hey, even though I may not have known that layoffs were coming, even though this might be catching me completely out of the blue, I still had an expectation set for me at the time of my employment.

Now, to your point. Whether they actually read and absorb that information is a whole other story, right? Like whole other story. but the point is we set that expectation for them. 

Rebecca Rose: I think it's important to make the employee handbook kind of our casual conversation periodically in team meetings. So people are like, Oh yeah, we have that as our guide. We have that as a tool. I Do recall one state that I worked with actually had to have in their employee handbook in bold capital letters.

We are at an employee We are an at will state. And I thought, I thought that was pretty interesting. And in my employee handbooks, when I helped to create them, we did have a acknowledgement receipt that said, you know, we are an at will state and this is what this means. So I would probably under these circumstances, under this layoff have to lean on that.

And then I would go right back to my employee handbook and make sure I get something in there about layoffs.

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Stephanie Goss: I agree with you 100 percent and I think that the hard part right is that for our writer? They're in the thick of it. And so you, you always wish that you could go back sometimes and start over and try harder and do things differently than maybe your past self did. But when you're facing this as a leader, let's talk about this You had, you had two other pieces that you wanted to talk about and I think that they're both super great and, and relevant.

And let's talk about this from a headspace perspective. So for you, Rebecca, like when you're coaching leaders and team members to have hard conversations with people, which of course laying someone off is going to be a hard conversation. What are some of the things that you coach them to, from a headspace emotional, like getting, really getting ready to have this conversation because it's never easy.

Like, even if you are very experienced and a very, you know, tenured or skilled communicator, it's never easy. Like, I, I, I say, You know, I, I have unfortunately fired more than one person in my career and I'm good at hard conversations, but my palms still sweat before I, before I have a hard conversation, you know, I still get nervous.

I still get anxious. So, what are some of the, the coaching tips and tricks that you have for how to approach the hard conversation.

Rebecca Rose: And even right now just going into this, it probably sets me back into some trauma, past trauma experiences doing this because it's so tough. So coaching them. So I would have to help them see that these are the hard facts of why we're doing this and what we're doing with this. But when we are in that present moment and speaking with that team member, we're not in hard facts.

We are going to be open and honest with them. We're going to have, and if I have in my sphere of influence, someone who I've maybe even practiced with, if this is my first or second time that I've done this, because we, we want to do it with an open heart and open mind and in a loving and embracing space, but know that it has to be done. And that's how I would approach it. I would create a space that it was just the two of us, It was quiet. It's not going to be on Monday because everybody for the rest of the week is going to be talking about it. It's going to be probably on a Friday afternoon and I'm going to be totally prepared. I'm going to have gone through my employee handbook.

I would have gone through what is the law within my state that's requiring me at time of dismissal. What does that look like? I'm going to have, if I need, the check that they need. I'm going to have all of the materials that they're going to need. I'm going to have the opportunity for them to be in COBRA

not that we have to have all of that conversation right now, because that's a lot, but I'm going to be prepared for when I do have it. And again, Stephanie, you're pulling from some times that I haven't had or done this conversation in a long time. But you need to be prepared. And the more, the more you're understanding that this is needed for your team, you've detached yourself a little bit from the circumstances because you know, this is going to be difficult for them.

And you can express that. You can say, I know there's not going to be any good time for this. You had mentioned earlier about opportunities. We, Please stay on for three weeks. That's something you have to determine with you and your leadership. If that's a good thing, if that's something that you can allow for, if that's the best interest of them, would they have that opportunity to say, yes, I need to stay on for three weeks or like, Oh, no, good.

I'm over this. I'm I'm done. And you had mentioned to something out about severance pay. Is that an opportunity you have to have all of that figured out and lined out before, and that can take days. That could take days to gather all that information. What did I miss? Yes.

Stephanie Goss: I think you hit on the really, really important pieces, which is, it's never going to be easy. And part of it is creating that safe space and I think for me, the biggest emotional step in preparing for that hard conversation is sometimes just acknowledging both to myself, but to the other person that this is not going to be an easy conversation, you know, because there's, there's going to be emotions and there's going to be it. Challenges on both sides. And it's just like, I, I I'm curious. I'm curious because of your work as a compassionate euthanasia professional and educator. Like, I'm curious for me, it was always, I correlated it in my brain. as that feeling of like, if a client is, very upset in an exam room during euthanasia, even if it's a patient that I cared for too, if I let myself lean into the emotions and, and take their emotions on and amplify my own emotions, it makes it harder for me to really I'm giving them compassion because I'm letting them see the emotions.

And it makes it harder for me to be a compassionate professional in serving their pet to that very last moment. And so for me, that line always was like, try and control my emotions. I, I want to empathize. I want them to understand how much I care about their pet. And I had to, I had to learn how to lock down in the moment,

that empathetic response of taking on their emotions as well and letting my own emotions be heightened so that I could do the work that needed to be done and take care of the pet. And I think about it a lot the same way as a manager. Like I can have feelings and I can, I can care about my team and I can express those emotions.

And I have to do the work to not let my emotions raise, to where they, to, to, to a really heightened point because I don't want to amplify their emotions. And so as someone who is a sympathetic crier, like I had to learn how to, how to control that so that if a team member, if their emotional response was, were tears and there was crying that I didn't take on that and amplify it by starting to cry myself.

And so it sounds, I've had team members tell me like, that sounds really mean. And I think it's just a part of that soft skills work because I can do better work for the team when I can empathize with them. And I can feel that compassion. And I can also still be professional and level headed and provide them with the guidance that they need from a leader.

And so in this case, you know, if I'm sitting down and it is emotional for that person and they do get upset and they start crying and they start talking about the, what am I going to do about money and stuff like that. If I let myself go to the emotional place, I do them a disservice because it takes, it takes me longer to be able to present them with the information that can help support them.

And so I want to be. I want to, I guess, I guess I, the question that I'm getting to is, do you have any tips and tricks for reaching that place of compassion where you can show them that you care about them? And also to your point, give them that information. Like if they're worried about the money to be able to say to them, okay, I understand.

Like I, I know that this was unexpected. I, I understand that money is a concern and here's what I can do to support you. Whether it's the information about accessing insurance benefits through COBRA, like you mentioned, or the severance pay or whatever it is, like being able to lean into that. Do you have tips and tricks that you have gathered through your career that help prepare in that way as a leader for the hard conversation?

Rebecca Rose: I think when you do step into that leadership role, that management role, that's just part of it. But I'm hoping that as you've grown through your career, people have supported you and understanding there has to be a level of detachment. So let's talk about the vulnerability. Yes, I can be vulnerable and open hearted and I can be be here for you. And so definitely during euthanasia, right? Vulnerability and, and compassion during that euthanasia, most definitely. And allowing for that grief and allowing for the support of that grief. That's a big part of who we are and what we do in end of life care. And I want to apply some of that to this letting go of a team member during a layoff, having all of that data, all of that information, and also preparing myself for a no drama, low drama exit, right?

And saying, okay, because there is going to be tears and there's going to be misunderstanding and there's going to be the more than likely, which, Oh my God, again, your heart just breaks. And yet I can't be here for another hour and a half or longer or whatever it's going to take. That's why we're going to do this on a Friday and I'm going to prepare.

And I'm going to also at some point in time, come to the realization that this is it. I need to one, let you go. We're going to talk about this severance. You're going to stay for three weeks or you're not. And at some point in time, you're, you're actually just going to become a broken record in this is what we've chosen and this is what I can do for you now.

And there's going to be rebuttal again, that broken record. This is what we've chosen to do right now. And this is what, how I can help you going, moving forward. Boom, boom, boom, boom, because it's got to come to an end at some point, instead of keeping this dialogue and this circle going, because it's going to be tough.

Oh my gosh. It's so difficult and we can't take this burden on ourselves, right? It's part of being a manager. It's part of being a leader. You're here for the business and you're here for the team. And unfortunately this is part of that tough thing that we have to do. 

Stephanie Goss: I love that. cause it is hard and it's a learning lesson. And , like you said, it's doesn't get any easier. I mean, nobody wants to be the person to have to lay people off or, or fire people. But you know, when you think about it in that euthanasia context, you can provide loving and compassionate end of life care every single day.

And it doesn't make it any easier. You know, you still, you still have that, that emotional piece of it. You learn. You learn the skills, and you learn the coping mechanisms, hopefully that are healthy, to support you you know, mentally and emotionally, and I think it's the same here, and so, I think being able to model that behavior for the team is also one of the best things that you can, can do here, and to your point, I love, I love the idea of Okay, and this is where I tell, you know, manager friends, look, it's okay if you have to write it down, if you have to have notes in front of you.

Like, hard conversations are hard, and nobody says that we have to go into a hard conversation without a script. You don't. That's BS. Like, take a notepad in, have a, have a plan, have an out, have your bullet points written down. Even just on a napkin for yourself, whatever is going to make you feel more comfortable and confident to help support them.

Because at the end of the day, the decision had to be made. You can't change the decision. All you can do is support this person to the best of your ability. And so I think having that plan and to your point about the reiteration, at some point you have to have an off ramp. And so at some point you have to say, Okay, I feel like we're not getting anywhere in this conversation if that's the way it goes if they just keep asking But why me or I don't understand.

I can't do this I you know, I just changed my I just you know I'm going through some mental health challenges or I just changed my medications or I you know My partner just got laid off from their job or whatever it is because the reality is we're human beings and life happens You made this point so early on and I love it so much that life happens every single day.

And hopefully we never take it for granted, but the reality is it happens to us every second of every day. And we can't control that as employers. What we can do is show up and be compassionate, kind human beings and do our best to take care of the people in our, in our care and in our service. And so I think by giving the team member that support and saying, I hear you and I want to support you.

And this is how, this is how we're going to do that. And at some point, if you do that spiral, because I think that's like the little lizard human brain, the caveman brain, if you will, that's just like, but, but, but, you know, like, cause you're trying to come to terms with

it at some point, you have to have that, that exit strategy of,

i, I don't think that there's anything else that I can say that, nothing is going to change where we are. How would you like me to help you move forward? Would you like to, especially like if they're going to, if they're terminated or, you know, if you're laying them off effective immediately, leaning them towards, can I help you gather your things?

I help you, you know, Can I give you some time, do you want to take a walk? 

Rebecca Rose: yeah, wherever we chose to do this and it was time to end this, I would be walking away and escorting towards the door. Cause I, I've done whatever I can at this point in time. And I know that sounds very strange, but it's similar to having a tough conversation even with a client.

It's like, okay, well I'm going to start walking away. Right. I do have a question for you, Stephanie. You know, is this person, a candidate, the person that you're laying off going to get your exit interview and when?

Stephanie Goss: That is a great question. Oh my gosh, I love it so much. I mean, I would say, I would say yes, in that this person is probably the ultimate candidate for your, for your exit interview, right? Because even though they may not have been a cultural fit, or maybe they weren't a skill fit, or maybe they weren't both, and there were reasons why you chose this person.

To be the person that you lay off, they're not being, they're not being fired. Like, yes, their skillset may have come into question or their performance may have come into question as part of your layoff decision making, but they're not being fired. And so asking them the kind of questions that you typically ask on an exit interview, like what could we have done better as an employer?

Because the reality is when you lay someone off, the hope, the idea, the difference. in the idea between laying someone off and terminating employment is when you lay someone off, you have the hope that you might be able to bring them back. It sounds like in this case, the way that they went about making the decision about layoffs also maybe had to do with performance and fit.

And so maybe this isn't someone who would be a candidate for being able to be rehired. However, It can often frame an employee, like they don't have to know that, right? Like that's between you and your, that's between you and whatever you might believe in or not, higher power wise, right? Like that, if that is whatever you as your leadership team have decided, they don't have to know that.

So why not set up the best possible employee experience for them and say, Hey, we care about you. And we want to do the right thing by our team members and so I know that this feels the way that I would probably approach it is to say before I let them go. If I was, if I was laying them off effective immediately, I might say, hey, Today is not the day because everything is really raw and I want to give you time to process and I understand that there might be a grieving process here in the way that this had to end.

And I can't, like I want you to have the time and the space to be able to handle your own, your own feelings. And if you feel up to it, I would like to send you with this exit survey or I'd like to send you with the, you know, by email, however you, however you do it. Because I would love to get your feedback on how we can.

Do better for our team as employers and I've, you know, we respect you, we value you. Obviously, you don't want to say things that are not true, but talk about an opportunity to get feedback from a team member. What about, what about you, Rebecca? How would you approach

Rebecca Rose: Well, one of the top conversations I have when I'm doing the onboarding and I'm going through that employee handbook, one of the things I make sure I hit as we close the last pages of this is that everybody, regardless of the reason for leaving voluntary, involuntary now for this idea of a layoff or it's always been there, but just they always get an exit interview or an exit sheet.

They necessarily wouldn't get it right then and there where we're going to fill it out in front of them. But in two days period of time, you will be receiving this exit interview. You're not obligated to do it, but I would really appreciate that you did it. So I lay the groundwork with my teams that an exit interview will or an exit survey will always be done or given as an opportunity.

Stephanie Goss: I love that. And I, I think the, I think following your example of the exit interview, I think the last, the place where I would leave us is in that setting the expectation of what they can expect. And so I think about you know, Brené Brown and, and clear, clear is kind, right? And the idea that if this employee is not going to be eligible for rehire, should things change, don't tell them that you will reach out to them if things change, because otherwise you're just setting them up for failed expectations and you're getting their hopes up.

And that's not, that's not fair. That's not kind, right? So I think if you know that you're not going to rehire this employee, again, you can frame it as, you know, we are not going to be looking for a replacement for this position at any time in the immediate future. And I wish you the best of luck, the best of luck with your future, you know employment endeavors,

but if they someone who has the potential to come back.

Rebecca Rose: or let them know that you'll be, you'll be up for referencing. You know, if, if under those other circumstances, I'm happy to give a reference. That could be one of those. Ending the conversation. Bringing it down to the end. 

Stephanie Goss: I love that you said that so much because that I will say I share that with when I you know when you and I both you know speak and and lecture and one of the things that I share with colleagues is look the reality is, there is a right fit for everyone, clients and team members.

And just because someone wasn't a fit at my hospital, doesn't mean that they won't be a fit for someone else's hospital. And so I always, unless I'm terminating someone for cause, and I, you know, absolutely would not be a reference for them, because there's some sort of reason that I could find that no employer should employ them,

in the future. And those reasons are, for me, are very, very slim. And that's a whole other, that's a whole other episode. But if I'm, I would absolutely say, you know, yeah, put me, put me down as a, as a reference, because the reality is even a team member who doesn't fit for me, there could be a practice out there that would be a right fit for them.

And so part of what I choose to do is think positively as a leader. And when I get that employment reference, I ask that person, questions about, tell me about your practice, like tell me about your environment because I don't want to answer your question about their works, their skill set or their, you know, can they handle fast pace?

I want to know more about what that kind of means before I answer that question, because maybe that didn't work in my hospital, but it might work in yours, and so I think being able to set them up for success in that way is really, really important. And again, We don't want to promise, falsely promise things to the team even when they're leaving, but I love, love, love that idea of how do I give them an exit interview and have them help us, but then also what can I do to help them moving forward, and so,

I think you mentioned the idea of, or we, we talked briefly earlier about the idea of, look, just because you do things one time does not mean that you're setting a precedent. And so I think to your point earlier, if you don't have something in your handbook about a layoff policy, and a recall policy.

Now's the time, right? So moving forward, that's the box. Rebecca says, please go check that box when you're done listening to this episode, right? But also, I think it's really a good opportunity to say, hey, I don't have a policy. And so What can I do in the moment to take care of this human being who is a part of my practice? And that's going to look different for everybody. And there's no judgment. If you can't afford to give them a severance, you can't afford to give them a severance.

If they are, you know, if they are struggling to show up to, to work, and that's part of why you made the decision to lay them off, you you may not want them to stay in your employee for another three weeks. There's no judgment there. Like you do what you need to do for the, for the business. And just because you do something one time before you had a policy, doesn't mean that that becomes the policy, right?

You can say, Hey, I'm going to make the decision right now in the moment and moving forward because we didn't have a policy. This is how we're going to handle this in the future.

Thank you so much, Rebecca, for having this conversation with me today. This was this was a lot of fun. And I think we, I think we hit on some really solid high points. Tell tell the listeners, because I'm sure that they are like, Rebecca is amazing. Just like I said at the very beginning.

Now, after listening to you where can they, so first of all, where can people find you online or find out what you're, what you're up to? Are you on social media? Are you on LinkedIn? What does that look like for you?

Rebecca Rose: I'm very social, I'm social at parties, I'm social at conferences, I'm social on the internet. So yes, they can find me on Facebook, Rebecca Rose. I'm also on LinkedIn and everyone is invited to my veterinary teams living well, which is a closed Facebook group. And this is, these are the kinds of conversations that we have in there as well.

Stephanie Goss: I will drop the links. to those contact points for you and to the group into the show notes for everybody. And then you are going to be speaking at our Get Shit Done conference, which is coming up and happening. And I will put the links. to that as well in the show notes, but that is happening October 23rd.

And that one is virtual. So if you have been looking for an opportunity and I know everybody Zoom fatigue is real at this point. And we, I think do a great job of making it feel fun. And engaging and it's super interactive. It's not like you're going to get online and listen to someone lecture. And I am super excited to hear your session Rebecca, for that, which is communication skills and tough conversations.

Rebecca Rose: And, and the tools for success. Cause I'm always about the tools.

Stephanie Goss: I love it so much. So if you were like, I would love more of this, come and hang out with us in October. thank you so much for being here, Rebecca and have a great rest of your week listeners. And we will talk to you guys all again soon.

Rebecca Rose: Thanks for having me. Bye bye.

Andy Roark: And that's a wrap on another episode of the Uncharted Podcast, guys. Thanks so much to Rebecca Rose for being here with Stephanie Goss. Gang. I hope you guys enjoyed it and got a lot out of it. If you did as always, please take a moment to leave us an honest review wherever you get your podcasts. It means a world to me and Stephanie and it helps people find us and, you know, we just wanna help practices. 

And I dunno, it's just the best way to get the word out. So anyway, guys, thanks for being here. Take care of yourselves. We'll talk to you later.

This manager faces challenges with constant corrections from a perfectionist team member, causing tension within the team. Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss dive deep into managing perfectionist tendencies in a veterinary setting, highlighting the importance of empathy, open communication, and objective management. They explore how the veterinary education system can contribute to perfectionist behaviors and discuss strategies for balancing high standards with team harmony. This episode is packed with action items for any practice owner, manager, leader or veterinary team member who might be dealing with a similar situation. Let's get into this episode…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Episode Transcript

Stephanie Goss: Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted podcast. And this week on the podcast, Andy and I are diving into the mailbag because we've got a question from a manager who's wondering, how do you performance manage someone who has perfectionist tendencies? They mean well, but the constant corrections are starting to take a toll on the team.

This one's got a sprinkle of maybe some toxic positivity and a whole lot of fun. Let's get into it.

Dr. Andy Roark: And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only Stephanie. I don't deserve this. You look perfect tonight. Gosh. Oh boy.

Stephanie Goss: Oh yes, I, I like it. I like it.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, you know, we're, we're talking perfectionism today. And I was like, I don't know. That's just, that's what came into my mind. Uh,

Stephanie Goss: I'm definitely, definitely, definitely not looking perfect. Although my “cloffice” is shaping up very nicely.

Dr. Andy Roark: You're, yeah, you don't look, she's in, she's in her pajamas in her closet, uh, and I'm

Stephanie Goss: I have actually gotten dressed today. It is late enough when we're doing this.

Dr. Andy Roark: That's, no, it looks good, it's good. The cloffice, I love it.

Stephanie Goss: The “cloffice” is, uh, is looking good. Uh, how's it going Andy Roark?

Dr. Andy Roark: It's, it's crazy. It's completely insane, just so you know. Uh, the world, the world is nuts. And I just, I, I've been sitting today. You know, sometimes I try to write things and they just don't go anywhere.

And that was this morning. Of like, it's really hard to believe sometimes that you just sit and you work and you work and you work and then you throw the whole thing away It's like it's hard to believe that's progress. I think I think it is. I think you have to work through it, but I've got this crazy idea that it's not. It's not going into the box.

I want it to go into but I'm gonna try it out on you. First of all, I gotta give you some culture so you can understand The high level of idea that I have here. And so how much do you know about professional wrestling?

Stephanie Goss: Absolutely. Absolutely zero.

Dr. Andy Roark: That can't be true. You have a theater background. You don't know anything about professional wrestling? Oh, I'm gonna change

Stephanie Goss: and I have three brothers.

Dr. Andy Roark: I'm gonna change your life. I could see you becoming a massive professional wrestling fan.

Stephanie Goss: My context for professional wrestling, my context for professional wrestling is Hulk Hogan.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh yeah. Okay. So you're, you're, you are old school. Which is– just look, I mean you're all about hugging. You definitely, you like dramatic entrances. You um, you get into costumes like you are basically there if just a little taste for violence and you are. Right where you need to be to appreciate that. Okay, let me so I am not a huge current professional wrestling fan meaning I have not watched professional wrestling in a long time I watch the commercials when they come on with interest but um, but in the 90s like when The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin like I was there and then I grew up with Hulk Hogan and Rowdy Ruddy Piper and those guys and so I was a male in the south growing up and so that's it.

Okay, so in professional wrestling. It's it is over the top You Soap opera theater, right? It is over the top. And so the bad guys are Horribly bad. They have to be bad enough that everybody is okay with violence being committed against them Like, you know, like like we have to feel good that this person's being beaten with a chair That's how bad they have to be and we love to switch sides meaning we love to have people who are the worst and then they You know turn and they become the good guy.

They betray the other bad guys, and we cheer for that person, and we hate when the good guy turns evil and betrays the other good guys, and then we hate that person more than anyone else. And it's all about the bad guys doing bad guy stuff so that the good guys can come running in from the back and just reap justice on the bad guys doing bad guy stuff.

And the crowd goes absolutely ballistic and like, this is, this is the essence of professional wrestling. The reason I'm talking about all of this is..

Stephanie Goss: I was wondering where going with this.

Dr. Andy Roark: I have been spending some time on VETstagram, which is the VET part of the Instagram world. And you know what I see in VETstagram all day, every day?

It's all, it's all professional wrestling. All of it. I was watching. I was just, I was just absolutely like, like just, just staring and I was like, okay, so here's the story Goss. There were these pet owners and I don't know if they're real. It doesn't matter? Nope, like it's, it's probably not, but there were these pet owners, and apparently they were really mean to this vet tech when it was talking, when, when they wanted the pet's nails trimmed, and so everybody's like, boo, and then the practice owner for the vet clinic was like, we're not gonna trim nails anymore, we're not doing it, and everybody's like, yeah, and then, the trolls came out, and they're like, that's your job, you have to trim these nails.

And are those people real? I can't imagine they are, but there they were in the comments. And then, the vet people, they circled up, and they came charging in from the back with their chairs, and just cleaned house on the trolls, and there were so many comment section was complete, like someone was thrown to a virtual table on the comment section and all of the good guys high fived and just the crowd went nuts.

And that happened on VETstagram that I was, that I was watching. And then I saw another one where there was this technician who was posting and she was like, I'm all about technician utilization. And then there were some doctors and they were in the comments and they were like, yes, we are too. But then it turned out that those doctors actually did stuff like drew blood by themself.

And the techs that knew the doctors, they came running in. And they were like, You don't really do this because I saw you draw blood and Shannon was standing there watching and you don't and then the vets were like, Oh, hold on a second because we're fighting burnout because we're not letting our technicians work alone.

And then a bunch of vets came running out of the back and they were just cleaning house and throwing people out of the ring. And it was just, I was watching and I was like, this is amazing. And now, I can't, I don't, I'm struggling to put that into a 500 word blog post.

Stephanie Goss: I wonder why. 

Dr. Andy Roark: I think more people should know about this because I was just standing there and I was just, I was like, this is bananas. It's bananas.

Stephanie Goss: Okay.

Dr. Andy Roark: The internet, the internet vet world, just so you know, I had this other thought, again, I'm, I'm weaving things together here. The internet vet world is like Neverland.

It is Neverland because it only exists if you believe in it if you log off and you're like these people are all nuts and they are not representative of the people I see in my day. That world is not real. It ceases to exist. You don't, it does not come into your practice but if you believe in it, you can go there and you're like and then somebody said trimming nails is your job and you have to get in there and do your job and shut up.

That that world only exists if you believe it exists and you choose to go and be there because it's not it's not real. It's not real unless you really want it to be and me. I haven't been on vestagram in a long time. I was just like I was like I, this is the other part I felt like Rip Van Winkle, you know when you fall asleep for 20 years and you wake up in the world, it is completely different.

I was like, I was talking to my friend and she was all into it, and I was like, what is this vet medicine that you are talking about? Because I don't know these people. And she was like, get on TikTok and you'll meet 'em. And I'm like, you mean go to Neverland? That's what you mean. You gotta believe and you go to Neverland and then you too can deal with people who hate you because of the dog food you recommend.

Stephanie Goss: Oh my goodness, okay, so what I'm 

Dr. Andy Roark: So anyway, it's been a day. It's been a day. 

Stephanie Goss: I don't even know how we record after that.

Dr. Andy Roark: I think we should take a break. We should take a break here. This might just be the episode right here. Just let's just call this week 32 and just cap it. I think we should take a break. I think we should take a break here and let you, let you collect yourself.

Stephanie Goss: Okay, so, um, The reason that you said that I look like perfection this morning when I absolutely do not, uh, is that we've got a mailbag about, about perfectionist, uh, a perfectionist person, and it's interesting because uh, I read this mailbag and I was like, oh, this is going to be one of those episodes where people are like 100%. This is my clinic, right? They're talking about my clinic. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, sure.

Stephanie Goss: because I immediately recognized this person. and. It couldn't possibly be because I've been this person. so we had an email from a manager who was like, Hey, I have, I'm struggling with performance management and in two particular ways.

I have a member of my team who is. Uh, someone who has perfectionist tendencies and they mean well, they love their teammates, they have, they really truly mean well, and the constant corrections and the constant it's never good enough is taking a toll on the team. And as a result of that, this manager is like, it is in my problem.

It is in my lap to deal with as a problem because the team is super frustrated. And so they are wondering like, how do I manage this specifically? And then how do I deal with everyone doing the toxic positivity thing where like, it's all fine. It's all going to be fine. It's, you know, the world is great.

It's fine and dandy when they are not actually feeling that way. In fact, they're feeling very frustrated. And I thought, and so I thought, Hey, that's a, that's a really good one. Let's, let's, let's get into that.

Dr. Andy Roark: This is a really good one. Um, management of perfectionists is one of the number one things that we get asked about. It is, um, and I have, I have theories and I can't, I can't totally back this up. But, um, but there, there are theories. So, one of the things I can say for true is, so, I've talked to a number of different vet schools, and a lot of them won't share information with me, um, because I'm just some random guy who's calling the vet school.

But, um, But, you know, you and I teach DISC, uh, communication styles, and, uh, if you don't know about DISC or you'd like a primer in DISC, our Uncharted Leadership Essentials Certificate, which is free to Uncharted members and available for purchase on Vetfolio, um, we do a whole program on DISC and it's led by Stephanie Goss, and so you can learn more about DISC there.

Anyway, if you're into DISC, um, I have heard, again, this is anecdotal because it's a couple different vet schools that sort of put, put, gave me this information, but they, they wouldn't put it in writing, but just generally talking to people. It's my understanding that about 80 percent of vet students coming out of vet school are either C personality types or S personality types, or communication styles, sorry.

Uh, the S, uh, communication style is definitely the go along to get along, we want everybody to be okay, uh, personality. And the C is the conscientious personality type that wants to get the right answer. They want to make sure the details are done, you know, they, think of your, think of your of your editors, the ones who were like, I'm reading for sentence structure.

This needs to be right. Um, I'm going to fix these things. Uh, have we fact check this blah, blah, blah. This is the, one of the big reasons that you have veterinarians who say, show me the data, show me the data. Part of it is just how, how we are. I would say that. process of training veterinarians, it favors perfectionist personalities.

It is about can you get A pluses? Can you get the right answer again and again? And so people who are perfectionists tend to be well suited to climb the academic ladder, which is required to be a veterinarian. Now, um, it's not to dunk on on perfectionists or whatever, but what, That tendency will make you successful in the academic part of that medicine up until you graduate.

But then I think it genuinely makes life very hard once you have gotten out and you have graduated. And so I've got an article that I have, that I did actually write and it's coming out and I kind of meant it for new graduates and I was thinking about it. You know, I think when I graduated from vet school, I thought that I had acquired enough correct answers that when I, by the time I graduated, I would have clarity in the cases that were put before me, meaning I got a bunch of stuff right in the 9th grade, in the 12th grade, and then in college, and then in vet school, and I have taken so many tests that ultimately I have clarity.

But that's not how the word works. The way the world works is that easy questions get solved by the basic front line people and harder questions kind of move past those people. And so, especially now with the internet and people being able to Google things and YouTube, a lot of very basic things are just, we never even see them anymore.

And so the problem is in that medicine you train and train and train yourself up to the point where your job is not telling people what is good and what is bad. It is choosing between two objectively bad options. It is trying to do one thing when you do not have the resources to do that thing. And I think the reason I wrote this was I think that my gift to young vets is I got there and felt like I was the only person who thought that they were going to have clarity and did not have clarity.

And I was the only one who thought because I felt like I was wandering around trying to find an acceptable solution that I was failing. And the reality is, our training qualifies us simply to be the one who holds the torch in the darkness so that we can search for the answer and help other people find a path when there is no obviously correct path, and if there was, they wouldn't need us. So anyway, um, there's sort of that. I think that that's particularly hard on perfectionists. And I think, because of our training, I think we have a lot of perfectionists. And so I think that we have a lot of perfectionists, and I think that there are things about vet medicine that are very hard on perfectionists.

And I just, as, um, I don't know, that's just sort of one of the things about, about managing people. It's also just about being a person. I think you and I have both worked with people who have really been at war with themselves because they wanted perfection in situations where perfection is just not an option.

It's just not available. And so I think that there's, there's a, there's a lot there. So we get asked a lot about that. The toxic positivity part I think is interesting. I think it's a very separate question. Um, and I think we'll, I think we'll split them apart a little bit. Yeah, I think we'll split them apart a little bit, cause I, I, I can definitely get up on a big soapbox.

I don't know if we're gonna have time to unpack the toxic positivity part as much as I want, but, but we'll definitely touch on it. 

Stephanie Goss: Yeah. That sounds good. Maybe we'll get, maybe we'll get three podcast episodes out of this one.

Dr. Andy Roark: Exactly.

Stephanie Goss: We'll get our professional wrestling.

Dr. Andy Roark: Let's, now, well we gotta get this thing on the, Goss stop, stop stalling us here, we gotta get focused.

Stephanie Goss: Okay. Okay.

Dr. Andy Roark: Alright, so, uh, managing the perfectionist, your head, your head space is vital here. Because you are going to, you're going to engage with this person, who for God's sakes is doing her absolute best to get it right.

And I say her, it could be anybody, but. Let's just say her, um, who they are trying really hard. This person is not having problems because they don't care. They're having problems because they care a lot. And so, you're going to have to get into a healthy, patient frame of  mind. In order to, to manage this problem.

So one of the big things I would say up front at headspace is get centered, get in a place where you can be empathetic and where you can try to approach this person in good spirits. Do not wait until things blow up and you're angry because the staff is in an uproar, like this is the thing where you would like to work on with low stakes, low stress. This is going to take some time. This is not going to be a flip the switch. And this person with a perfectionist personality is going to recognize yeah, that they need to do things differently and just 100 percent change their way of existing in the world. That's not going to happen.

Also recognize that this is not going to be a uh, Um, one person fixes themself. This is going to have to be a migration of the team where we can try to meet in the middle a little bit and find outlets for the person who wants to push us to a higher standard of care to be able to do so without.

Exhausting the people who are, uh, having to carry out the work. You know what I mean? Or who don't, aren't necessarily bought into the level of care or they, who don't think that the pet owners can pay for the level of care. And you and I talk about that sometimes too. This can even be a values conflict.

And so I, you know, one of the, one of the values conflicts that I've seen in practice that is very hard to manage is if you have a doctor. Let's just say who, um, whose core value is the highest standard of care is what they care about. Like that is something they value as a person and they go to work in a practice where accessibility to care and every patient gets care is a core value.

Those two values can bump heads. And I'm not saying that one of them is right and one of 'em is wrong, but it's very hard to say. I only want the highest level of care, and then you're saying I want to make sure that every single pet that comes in these doors gets taken care of. Those two things can really conflict, and it's very hard to reconcile those.

It can also be flipped. I have seen practices that are like, we are the highest standard of care practice, and the veterinarian that's like, I don't want to I want to make this happen for anyone who walks in the door. And I don't want to tell people, I'm sorry, you should go somewhere else because you don't have the resources to do what we do here.

Um, That those things are very, they are very challenging, which is why I said, we have got to get in a good headspace and just start to work on this with the stakes are low and try to try to find a path together, because this can be very challenging to navigate. And sometimes it, sometimes it just doesn't work.

Sometimes it's just a. bad fit. Um, I hope it's not that, but, but let's start down the path. And ultimately, if we do this right, we'll have a, we'll have a good action plan. And if we walk through that action plan and, and the two sides just can't reconcile, this just might be a bad cultural fit. And I hate that, but it's possible, but I don't like to guess at those things.

I like to go through a process and explain what's happening. And ultimately, I will know what is kind, because if we have done all the steps and this person is still not getting along with the team, that person's not happy, the team is not happy, us continuing to be together is not the kindest thing for anybody.

And that makes all of this much more palatable to me.

Stephanie Goss: I think that the reason that the headspace, uh, of, getting, getting Zen, getting calm is so important is because this is a really, can be a really slippery slope as a manager. Um, if you don't see the tendencies in this person, the same way that the rest of the team is seeing them currently, it can be very easy.

To let the team unload their frustration and their anger and their feelings about the situation on you. And it is very, very slippery slope because it is very easy to then skew your perception and start looking at that person through the lens of the team's feelings. And it makes you an unobjective observer in this scenario.

And that's really, really important. That's really dangerous here because you have to be able to walk the line between empathy to both sides, to the rest of the team, and to this team member who is trying their heart out, and if you are in the position where you are starting to look at that person and judge them through the lens of the team's frustration, it becomes very hard to remain objective.

So I think taking the step back for yourself. And sorting out how you feel about the situation. and doing something to remind yourself, figuring out how to remind yourself, What do I know about this person? I know that this person is good. I know that they are kind. I know that they have the team's best interest at heart.

I know that they are trying really hard. You know, like you said in the beginning, This person is trying so hard and they're, they're trying so hard is what is ultimately frustrating the team. And that should be looked at through a positive lens, not a negative one. And so as a manager, I think you need to figure out how to write down some of those notes for yourself to say, this is what I know is true about this person, so that you can look back at it because it is very easy to find yourself in this process in a place where you're like, Oh, that person is driving me freaking nuts.

Even if you didn't think that way before the team said something about it,

Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, I think you're spot on. I would tell you that has been a personal development goal of mine over the last couple of years. I think I've come a long way. He's been very hard to get to get Zen because your team comes to you with their frustrations and feelings, and I tend to be pretty naturally empathetic and empathetic.

And so I. I will absorb those feelings, and then it just makes my job of actually dealing with the situation much, much harder. Jumping back to professional wrestling, it really is. I mean, we've had the experience, the team comes to you and they're like, And then, she said this, and that's when we knew that, and can you believe that?

And like, you can feel them winding up. And if you And, and if you aren't careful, they will, they will wind you up because they want you to come charging into the ring with a chair and to, and to vanquish the villains that are there. Like that's, and again, this is not, it's not manipulative. It's just human nature as we, we get started and we wind up and we get frustrated and we get a willing audience and, and venting feels good.

And, you know, and, and, um, and people will come to you as the boss and, and lay these things down and you just, jumping back to the professional wrestling metaphor, You, you have to lean back and watch the spectacle without getting sucked into the, the, the frenzy that's there. And that is, that is really hard.

And so anyway, I, I think that you're, I think you're spot on. I, I think in order to have a good headspace here, whenever I, I, I'm sort of managing a perfectionist personality, it's really important to me that I assume positive intent. And what that means is assuming that this person has some valid ideas, and that they are really are trying things for the best.

And it is. Possible that maybe they've gone a little bit far with this or or I mean again I I have been frustrated with teams before and just been like I am going to push this idea through And if people don't do it, I'm going to make them uncomfortable Until they do it and that is I can I can I can understand that mentality of, um, I want to be fear free, and if you're not going to be fear free, I'm going to give you crap about it, and I'm going to say something to you to make you uncomfortable, uh, you know, because you're not doing the thing that I want to do.

And if you buy into the importance of fear free, then you're like, maybe that's justified. It's not. It's not the right way to do things. It's not how we get people to buy in. It's not how we build a culture that is happy and feel safe and feels, um, like they have a voice. But if I can at least respect the person's desire to advocate for pets and what they're trying to do and validate that desire, I'm starting to make steps towards being able to work with this person.

Stephanie Goss: I was just going to say, I think on the flip side of the assuming good intent, I think the, the, it brings the other piece of the slippery slope for me in terms of being the coach in this scenario, which is you are going to have to do the footwork to bring empathy to the perfectionist on behalf of the team, because you are going to have to do the work to get them to be able to see the that they are going to have to pick their battles because when you meet in the middle, it means both sides have to move.

And so that person who is the perfectionist is going to have to get to the place where they let go of some things. And that is very, very hard work. Um, as a recovering, as a recovering perfectionist, um, being able to say, Good is good enough and I'm going to let go and I'm going to step back like that is very hard and so as the coach you are going to have to help them assume good intent about their teammates just because they're not doing it the way that they would do it does not mean that they should be.

Don't think they're worth is the work is doing worth doing it doesn't mean that they don't have the pets or clients best interest at Heart it doesn't mean that they don't want the job done They are just doing it differently and you're gonna have to coach them to that place and so being able to be objective for yourself about that and assume good intent is Really really powerful tool for helping get that person to assume good intent on behalf of the team.

Dr. Andy Roark: Absolutely. And I think you also have to approach this, and when you talk to this person, the perfectionistic doctor, you need to seek to understand. Do not make assumptions about why they're being a perfectionist. Assumptions are your, are your enemy here. You do not want to believe, you think you're better than us.

And it is very easy to tell yourself stories when we're managing a perfectionist person about, you don't think we're good enough, you don't think we're smart enough, you don't, you know, you don't understand what our clients are dealing with, whatever. Don't you need to seek first understand and the reason you really need to do that one is so you can understand what this person cares about so we can have a productive conversation, but then two, you're going to have to change teams just so you know, and then you're going to have to go back and you're going to have to have the same conversation with the rest of the team, which means when you talk to the perfectionist, you're going to need to advocate for the team, and then because we're probably going to end up meeting in the middle, you are going to have to go back to the team and advocate for that doctor the same way of these are the points.

These are the things that are important. These are the changes that we're going to commit to making and how we're going to commit to making them. And a lot of times, again, this goes to headspace. It it's not all or none. And a lot of times meeting in the middle, people think, Oh, we're going to halfway do everything this person wants.

You know, that's not what I mean. It's about, it's a, it's about when we have someone on our team who wants to move the practice forward, even if we don't think it's how we move forward, it's about getting intentional. And saying, let, let's try some things, what are the things that are most important to you?

Is it the way we're doing surgery? Is it the way that we're taking histories in the exam room? Is it way we're leveraging our support staff? What is the most important thing? And we will talk about how we can work on that. The most important thing. And then we'll see how this goes. And then we'll work on the next thing.

But it can't be a full frontal assault of we're gonna fix all these things. We're gonna change all these things. And so a lot of times, and that's also much more palatable to the team is to say, All right, our doctor is gonna lean back on some of these things, and we're gonna work instead on our work.

Uh, anesthesia space prep, you know, pre surgical intake, you know, programs, and that's where we're going to work. And that way you can feel like you're giving this person attention, you're letting them work on something, the practice is getting better, but it's not a constant, we're getting criticized in

Stephanie Goss: About all the things. Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark: there's that, there's that, there's that intentional. One of the big things, and we have this conversation again, this is a headspace as well, but I am going to go and talk to this person. I need to seek first to understand. I need to understand what is driving this. And then I want to focus the conversation on what we agree on, like what, You say this is important to you, this is really important to us.

Let's find as much commonality as possible. Because a lot of times the perfectionist feels like no one cares but them.

Stephanie Goss: Yep.

Dr. Andy Roark: And I do not want them to believe that. I need to, without calling it out, I want to make them understand. You and I are largely on the same page. Like we, we want this and, and honestly, just hearing them and have them hear you about what you're trying to do can often bridge that gap and make that person not feel so alone, which makes them often more open to taking some feedback and meeting in the middle.

If they feel like there's nothing in common, it's really hard to meet in the middle. Cause that's usually a chasm. And so we're going to meet in the middle of this chasm. Like that's not good. Um, We want to do that. I think, um, asking for, uh, for input on how things with the team are going is a good way to open this up.

And it's because the team has come and they said, well, this person is, you know, criticizing this and that. And the other thing,

Stephanie Goss: right. Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Andy Roark: to tell ourself a story. This person is, is frustrated. They're angry. They're unhappy. Maybe they are. Maybe they're not. I think a good opening to the conversation, I mean, how do you feel like things are going with the team?

Um, Are you are you feeling well supported? Are you feeling frustrated in your interactions? Talk to me just a little bit about about about day to day working with the team how you're feeling

Stephanie Goss: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Andy Roark: And that's and now at this point the person kind of knows something up That's still okay because i'm not i'm not trying to trap them I just want to kind of understand how they're feeling about their interactions with the other staff members And if they say I feel great.

I really like this them, then this is a different conversation. This is, oh, they have the perception that they're failing you or that you think that they're failing them. And now this is a conversation about how we're communicating, presenting ourself. If the person says, I'm really unhappy with the team, I feel like they're lazy and they don't want to work hard.

I don't. Okay. Tell me more about that. What does that look like? Why do you, why do you have that impression? Can you give me any specific examples? And this is also because I'm going to have to flip this back and talk to the team. I need to understand what this person's saying, and I'm not trying to trap them.

I'm trying to understand so that I can talk to them. Is it true that you guys are doing this? And I will tell you the number of times that someone on the team has come to me And pointed a finger at someone else And then I do some investigation and I'm like Go back to the first person who was the original finger pointer and say Did you really say these things?

And they're like, well, yes, but I was like, you precipitated all of this And then you came and told me other people were villains When you in fact We're the one who hit your friend with a chair from behind and became a bad guy.

Stephanie Goss: Those are the, those are the moments of joy for a manager where you have to look at yourself in the mirror or sometimes in your therapist's office and say, am I, am I. Managing a team of of toddlers that can't talk to one another because

Dr. Andy Roark: You are. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. You are.

Stephanie Goss: Yeah,

Dr. Andy Roark: You are. They're all children, including us. We're all children. Everyone is 11 years old inside. And just, if you just accept that, it is so much easier.

Stephanie Goss: Yes, and it it is true, and I don't mean that in a belittling way, like our, you know, our team is children, but the reality is that most of us stop communication training at a childhood level. And so when you think about working with your team, the communication skills that most of us have are childhood level, and we have got to figure out how to do that.

get them to talk to one another. And it's interesting, you know, you were saying, um, asking the, the perfectionist, you know, opening wide and asking them how things are going. And you mentioned needing to talk to the team and, and deal with the flip side as well. And I think that's really, really important.

You have to, as the manager in the situation, the big part of the responsibility that sits in your hands is figuring out what the stories being told are, because there's always at least two sides to every story, and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle, and you have to figure out, is it closer to the one side than the other?

Is it in the middle of a chasm or is it like in the middle ish and close to a bridge, right? Like where, where do things really stand? And so I think, um, the key for me for this from trying to look at the commonality is where is everybody standing now? Because that's going to help you game plan the action steps for how do I actually The story is that they're on total opposite sides and you can observe that with your own eyes.

You have significantly more work to do to try and get them into the middle. But if they're standing close ish to each other and there's some mild disagreement there, then That's a lot easier to approach and manage, and that's part of your discovery processes as a manager, and I think that's why I love your approach to just start wide and start gathering information, because this is not something that you try and solve overnight.

This is the thing that you have to have the casual conversations, you have to gather the info, and then you have to do some observing on your own part, really, if you're going to handle this well, because the best thing is to not be able to say, well, the team is telling me this. The best thing is to be able to sit down with both sides and have the conversation and say, Hey, yesterday when I was hanging out at the front desk and chatting with everybody, I noticed that you did this.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.

Stephanie Goss: I noticed that the team's reaction to it was this. Tell me more about how you were feeling when that happened, right? Like, it feels radically different if I can present them that example as a manager from my own observations, rather than relying on the he said, she said, front versus back, you know, all of that.

That's where a lot of us come from. as managers struggle is we bring it to somebody. And to your point, how many times have you gotten the story? And then you go back to the person who told you the story in the first place. And it's like, that's not the actual story that I'm getting. You know, you left out a big piece.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. One of, one of my favorite phrases here as well during this exploratory phase is, um, Why, why is that so important to you? Like this, this seems to be really important to you. Help me understand for you, why is this so important? Like, what is, what is it that, that makes this so valuable?

That our practice behave this way? And you can learn a lot about the person that way. And that will, those ultimately, they give you a lot of tools. Tools to work with and understand where these behaviors are coming from and what this person cares about, and that helps you kind of negotiate with them on what we're going to do and what we're kind of not going to do and, and what can you be happy about us doing first, or what can you be happy about us focusing on this year, um, and to try to get them that place.

The last thing I'm going to put down in headspace here is this, and I hate to kind of add it, but I think it is important. There is one. type of showdown with sort of a perfectionist personality that I found to be particularly challenging. And again, I, where are you sharing this? Because if I, when I tell people this, oftentimes they can jump and go, Oh, yep, that's what I'm dealing with.

And I'm like, I just, I want you to go through the process of trying to understand the person. There is a way of looking at the world that I call the moral lens or the justice lens. And where in my experience, this can get really tricky is if there is someone who says, um, Providing the highest level of care or doing it this way is the morally correct thing to do.

Um, that is really hard to deal with. And so let, let me, um, let me try to frame this up. So example would be, um, if I said, why is that so important to you? And they say, because it's the right way to do it. And I would say, are you open to, to looking at alternative ways to do it, or are you open to, uh, letting the technicians do it the way they've done it previously, just because they're trained that way, they're comfortable that way, and they say to me something like, if you cared about pets, you would do it this way.

And that's an extreme case. But I have run into that, and I think that that is a really difficult mindset. It's a just, it's sort of the justice mindset is. It's, it's the, it's the pet owner saying, if you cared about pets, you would do it for free. It's, it's, I have run into people in vet medicine who are like, if you cared about pets, you would be fully fear free certified.

And I'm like, ooh, you, you're attacking my ethics. You're attacking my ethics because I didn't because our practice doesn't do this program not a slam on the program There's a million reasons that a practice would not be fear free certified. They would have other things to do again I'm using fear free as an example, but um, but when you say the only the only Possible excuse for you not doing this is you don't care or you're just trying to make money.

That is, um, one, that's, that's hurtful. It's bad communication on the part of the doctor. I hope they don't really feel that way. But if someone takes up that position, it is very hard to get them to meet you in the middle.

Stephanie Goss: Well, it's assuming bad intent on the other person's side, no matter, no matter what. It's a no. It's a no-win situation. There's no, there is no, there's no compromise and. In that situation, because no matter what you do, unless you do what that person wants, they're holding you hostage. It's like the emotional hostage, uh, you know, tactics that clients take with the front desk and that, that emotional blackmail.

I think a lesser, a less extreme version of that too is, is the team members. And I offer this because I think we've all had experience working with this person to some degree, is the person who truly believes. But there's only one right way to do it.

Dr. Andy Roark: yes.

Stephanie Goss: are some things in veterinary medicine where there is a right way to do it, and that is it.

And veterinary medicine is nothing but shades of grey. And there are so many things that we do all day, every day, that have different degrees of correctness. And it's not wrong if someone does it differently. And if you have that person where they truly believe there is only one right way to do it, that is really tricky.

And I love your, your, your asking them, Andy, like, um, to tell you more about that, because I think it helps open up the doors to, is this perfectionist? Like, are they assuming that that's what you want? Not because they've been told that that's what you want, but because that's what they think makes a good job.

Like, is this a place where you can teach them, hey, there's more than one way to do this. And I'm okay with either way, as long as the job gets done. And I can't tell you how many times I've had that conversation. in particular with my front desk team, where I've said to them, Oh, yeah, I mean, you could do it that way.

I might do it this way, a third way, but realistically, I don't care which way any of you do it as long as the job gets done. And I have had them look at me and say, you know, like, I think that sometimes that we rush through so many things with our team, and we don't lay out those expectations. I think a big part of this conversation, at least with the perfectionists in particular, is Is this something that they are, is this another story that they're telling themselves in their, he in their head?

Is there only one right way to do it? Did someone actually tell them that? Or is this something that they have assumed and made a leap between what they know and what they think?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I agree. Let's, uh, let's take a quick break here and then we're gonna hammer out these action steps on, on how we go forward from here.

Stephanie Goss: Sounds good.

Hey everybody, it's Stephanie and I am here because we have launched registration for our Practice Owner Summit 2024. And if you are a practice owner, I want you to make sure that you are going to be joining us in Atlanta for this event because as a practice owner, either you run the day or the day runs you.

And so we are coming together to help you Make your business something that works for you instead of you working for it. Because practice ownership is a high wire act. You are always balancing everything that you do is being watched and judged by the clients and the team. And so nobody feels those missteps and the failures more than the owner.

And at the same time, the rewards of having something that you own and that you ultimately have responsibility for the successes over is incredibly intense and rewarding. And so we are pulling together some of our favorite people in veterinary medicine to have a practice owner summit that is designed to Build a network for you of your fellow practice owners, get you guys working together on the challenges that your businesses are facing and be able to provide insight on some topics that might support a specific practice ownership goals.

So it is happening December 5th through the 7th. We are going to Atlanta. We're not in Greenville this year. We're going to be in Atlanta at a new venue for us. We're going to be at the Switch Yards downtown. Super excited. It's a cool, funky, hip place and I can't wait to, uh, to explore it with everybody.

This is a two and a half day program. So we are there the 5th, of December. And we're going to do what we do. We're going to have choose your own adventure sessions. We're going to have some activities. We're going to have some time to really truly get into it with our fellow practice owners and talk about the joys, some of the pitfalls and problem solve some of those challenges that we face as practice owners.

So head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/events And now back to the podcast. 

Dr. Andy Roark: All right. So as I said, I think this is a two part process. The first thing is we're going to talk to the veterinarian, and then we're going to have to go back and talk to the team and advocate for the veterinarian so that everybody is going to give everybody else a chance. And it has to be both sides.

It's not that the veterinarian is going to be humbled and go back to the team with his hat in his hands. Um, it's like, you know, let's hear this person and support them, and then let's go back to the other team and hear them, and then talk about how we meet in the middle. Okay. Um This is a little bit different because it's the paraprofessionals, the support staff, talking about a doctor.

If this is a intra technician or even intra doctor conflict where they're going, Well, I don't like the way that this person does it. Um, I am wary about solving other people's problems. I really like them to try to work it out as grown ups and, um, my first step often would be like, Well, let's have a, let's have a technician meeting and let's talk about this and how we feel.

And, and the nice thing is that I, I can mediate, but I am not the errand boy who is running back and forth between these two groups, begging them both to like each other. It's like, no, we're gonna, we're gonna sit down together and do this like grown ups. Again, that is different when it's, the texts are, feel like the doctor is giving them constant negative feedback.

I think that's, that's different. Um, remember that you're not going to be able to work with this person, the perfectionist, until you validate all the good things they're doing and the good reasons behind what they're doing and point out all the things that you agree on and make them feel appreciated for their efforts to improve the hospital.

And that needs to be genuine, but you need to try to get to that point where you're, where you are agreeing with the things you can agree with and you are thanking them. For pushing to make the practice better because in their mind that is that is what they're doing

Stephanie Goss: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Andy Roark: be really wary of pointing out Failures, right?

You didn't do this um I'm a much bigger fan with my perfections of pointing out successes and then talk about what even better

Stephanie Goss: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Andy Roark: or talk about how good a job we did and what the next step looks like or where I'd like to see us go in the next six months. And that might be That might not make sense when I say it, but it's a difference in saying, Hey, look, Stephanie, you know, your, your interactions with the staff are not good.

And we need to fix them. If Stephanie is a perfectionist, this is devastating. If I say, Stephanie, um, I really appreciate your help yesterday with, uh, Bobo Jenkins. And, um, I, I really like the way that you sort of, uh, worked with the staff and, and, and did some training and stuff as, as we went forward. I think where I would like to see in the next six months, I'd like to see you continue to strengthen that relationship with the support staff.

Um, I think that you're a great teacher, and I think that, I think that maybe the staff sometimes feels intimidated. And I, I, I'd like to see you working more sort of collegially in a, in a way where we're really taking advantage of your knowledge. And they're feeling like. And they're feeling like they have valuable skills to bring to the table and that they're supporting you.

And that's kind of where I would like to see us go in the next six months. And that, that does not feel like, Hey, you have failed and I need you to fix your failure. It's like, no, again, only say if it's true. I'm not going to tell someone they're doing a great job on something that I did not think they were doing a great job on.

But oftentimes I can look at a person in their day and find examples of the things I would like to see them do more of and call those things out. So that's, that's a big one for me.

Stephanie Goss: I think that goes for the team as well from, from the, to, you know, speaking to the manager who's managing the situation, I think both of your, your points, Andy, about validating the good things that this person is doing and the reasons behind it, and then getting them to focus not on the failures, but on the successes.

I think those are two, two, two tools. And that's why I, I agree with you when you said this is going to be a long process. Those are tools that if your team does not possess them, you are going to have to teach them those, those skills. You are going to have to teach them how to look, uh, positively at each other and assume the good intent and find the good in what, what each other is doing.

Um, and you, it is a very powerful tool to teach them how to look for the things that are going right. And Recognize that we all have opportunities where we can do things even better. And it's not personal. It's the job itself. And so, Hey, we're doing a great job with this. And what if we did this next time?

What if we tried this teaching them, not only that skillset to look at it in an even better yet framework, but also teaching them the language tool of making it a we, instead of a you and a me and that stopping of the finger pointing, that's part of teaching them how to solve their own problems. That's a, that's a long, that's a long play.

It's, it's definitely not, you know, a short one.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yep. I agree. I think the next tool in our toolbox is going to be leveraging the other doctors I mean again, I know if you're a true vet practice, this is a little bit more challenging than larger vets But so let's give an example. Let's just say that induction protocols, surgical induction protocols are a real sticking point.

This doctor says this is what we want to do and you guys are not doing it right and You know, blah, blah, blah. And the techs are feeling picked on and blah, blah, blah. And all those sorts of things. Uh, my question is, what are the other doctors doing? And, you know, can we bring the other doctors together and say, guys, uh, as a group of doctors, hello, group of doctors, we're having some questions from the technician about how we want to do this, because they're having different experiences with their different doctors.

Some of them are uncertain about what they're supposed to be doing. I wanted us to come together and try to reach a consensus about generally how we are going to do our, uh, anesthesia induction protocols and that way I can bring the doctors together and if I can get them to reach some sort of a consensus I can take that consensus back to the techs and say this is how the doctors together want to do this.

Now, some people say our practice is built on doctors being able to do whatever they want. I would say there can be some middle ground there. Meaning, I'm not telling you what drugs to use, but I am telling you, hey, this is how we're going to take patients in, this is how we're going to, they're going to be prepped.

There's a lot of things that we can agree on, even if we say doctors are going to pick their individual drugs. Um, there are, there are some things that we can still agree on, and I could still focus, uh, emphasize to the doctors, hey, getting some continuity so techs know what to expect is really important.

If you still can't do that, I would say at this point you're picking your poison. And so some people say, I don't want to try to get the doctors to make an agreement, it's too hard. Well, you either get to deal with the doctors trying to reach an agreement, or you get to deal with the headaches of the doctors doing things differently and wanting their own wishes honored.

Those are the two paths. Like, you get to deal with whichever path you want. Uh, you're, you take, but they, they both have downsides, um, but you are, you are at least picking your poison and you can feel like you have some agency in that, in that regard. It may be time after this to have a team culture ways of working conversation so everybody can hear each other.

And sort of build a collective vision of what, uh, the team working together looks like. And so that can be a larger staff meeting. One of my favorite ones is the way our friend, uh, Maria Prita does it, where she'll bring a team together and say, Alright guys, we're gonna make a list. What does a, uh, a high performing team, what do they look like?

What do they sound like? What do they feel like? Meaning, what does it feel like? feel like day to day to be a part of this team. How can we be more like this team? How can we communicate better? What's important to us? And that can provide a framework for people to talk about what they care about and what they're trying to accomplish.

And it's it's different than sitting people down and putting the staff on one side of the room and putting the doctor on the other side of the room and having them talk about their feelings to each other, which I think is generally a recipe for disaster. Um, So, yeah, but it's a way to get into that conversation that's not directly pointed at you guys are mad at her and she's mad at you.

Let's talk about it.

Stephanie Goss: Right. Yeah. I, I think part of it too, is this is a good opportunity to ask the team, um, For what they want to see in, because really this is about, it's about the work getting done, but as we've dug into this, a huge part of this is about, probably more about the feedback. that the rest of the team is either giving or receiving to each other than is about the work itself.

Because either they're getting feedback from the perfectionist that feels negative to them or feels like they're doing something wrong, or they're just, because clearly there was in the letter some conversation about the corrections, right? So the, the conversation for me really is about what the team is about.

What do we want this to feel like? All of us, like, we all like to hear, we've done a great job. When you get told that you have done a great job and it feels like really good, think, think to, you know, think back to a time using positive, affirmative inquiry, like asking them to think, think about a time when you got some feedback from somebody on the team that made you feel really good.

What did they say to you? And how did they say it? And pulling those pieces out to ask them, How do we, how do we give each other feedback in a way that still lets us walk away and feel positive about it? Even if something has been done wrong. Because the reality is, we're humans. And we are all going to make mistakes.

And I want us to have a place where we can acknowledge those mistakes. and safely still take care of our clients and our patients. If we make a mistake with a patient, like I want any member of the team to feel like it's okay to say, Hey guys, I made a mistake. I need help. Right? Like you want to know that as quickly as possible, particularly when a patient is involved, building that safety with the team is only going to happen with having those conversations.

And so I think the low stakes piece, I love Maria's approach. And another way to approach it is to ask them like, when you've had this go well, what did that look like? What did it feel like? And use that to build, okay, how are we going to do this collectively as a group moving forward?

Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, I love it. Um, I think you're spot on on coaching on how to give feedback, uh, both, both to the both to the staff and to the doctor, but, um, that that coach on positive feedback over negative, um, it's, uh,

Stephanie Goss: hmm. Mm

Dr. Andy Roark: I understand. Mm hmm. The tendency, if you see mistakes, you want to fix mistakes, but I will tell you. As an associate vet especially, positive feedback is your friend, which means sometimes letting a little things go and instead catching someone who's doing it the way you want and praising them publicly, um, is the way to train people. Because again, the techs aren't trying to fight you, they want to make you happy.

And if you just tell them, Hey, when you did that, that was really great. I really liked how you did that. Or, um, something like that, but this it's easy to reinforce those tendencies. Um, especially if you do it with other techs around and say, Hey, I love, this is the way I want it done. I just, I really love the way you did this.

Then it's not you. It is you pointing out when someone's doing a really good job and the rest of them, they want to get patted on the back. And so just, just be on your game, pay attention, uh, catch people doing things that you like and positively reinforce them. I think Frank, um, one of the things about the perfectionist is, you know, It can feel really demoralizing to feel like you're supposed to change who you are, or that you're wrong.

And again, for someone who has a perfectionist personality, being wrong is really hard. It can be really helpful to frame success not as you're right and you got your way, or you're wrong and you didn't get your way. It can, you can reframe the game as we need to get the team to buy in to these changes.

Let's talk about how to do that. Because then the challenge is not knowing what is good or what is bad. It is, all right, great. I hear you. How are we going to get the team to come on board with this? And that can frame things up where they go, Oh, Yes, maybe we could do some training. Maybe we could pick one thing and work on it.

And now they're helping us get an action plan that's going to make them happy. But, um, but a lot of that, if you can just change it, a lot of people think, again, this is sort of, I think this is a, I hate to say a mark of immaturity, but I think it is. I think it's a mark of immaturity to believe that I know things you don't know.

Um, the, the mark of maturity is to say there's a lot of different ways to do things, and I need to be smart about looking at our team and figuring out how I'm going to get other people to buy into the way that I think we should do them and build consensus and get this built into our culture. culture.

And so I just, it's funny. I see a lot of people stamping their foot and sticking their lip out and saying, well, this is the, this is, this is the right way to do it. And I'm like, you don't understand the assignment. The assignment is not for you to know the quote unquote best way. The assignment is for you to be able to talk to other people in a way that get them to.

buy in and feel good about what you want to

Stephanie Goss: hmm. Mm

Dr. Andy Roark: along for the ride. But that's, that's a, that's a maturity

Stephanie Goss: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

Dr. Andy Roark: And so, yeah, the last thing is switching over to action steps, generate a priority list of the issues that the perfectionist person would like to see changed. And then, uh, this is try to get them into the mindset of not nitpicking everybody about everything, but.

picking one area that we're going to focus on and we're going to lean back a little bit on the other areas, but we're going to work on this area and try to give them something that's productive that everyone can agree on. Okay, we're going to work on this, but that means we're going to let some other stuff go for right now.

And again, I'm not talking about letting things go if they're negligent, if they're dangerous, things like that. But, but you get the ideas is. I don't know, if you've ever tried to fix everything at once, you have realized how terrible that is, and how it never works. And just, this is just getting the person who's clearly They're trying to help.

It's just about getting them focused in a way where that we can actually start to implement some things that are going to help make them happy and also let the team feel safe in that they're not constantly feeling like they're going to mess up and get in trouble. That's that.

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, I love it. 

Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, that's, uh, that's kind of the big thing.

Uh, the, the toxic positivity part, uh, we did not touch on at all. I think it's, it's, uh, Just

Stephanie Goss: That's a whole other episode.

Dr. Andy Roark: it is well It's it's really hard to do anything about this without examples and I would just say this What are my frustrations in vet medicine right now is? There are a lot of people who are really cynical About that medicine and i'm not saying that's what's being happened here But there are a lot of people who are cynical and I go in and i'm like, hey guys This is a great profession and I really love it here.

And I know that that client was You Really nasty to us, but I expect that person was having a really terrible day and that I believe that they were probably doing their best and I'm going to try just to let it go and people, there are people who would say that's toxic positivity. And to me, I go, I don't, I don't think it is.

It's just, it's how I, it's how I want to cope and how I want to go forward. And again, the devil is in the details. Like, what exactly are we talking about? There are some things that sometimes being optimistic is not a bad thing. Okay. And sometimes it is, and if you're doing something that makes people feel like their complaints or their concerns are invalid, or they're not being heard, I need to know what the specifics are in that so we can have a conversation about that.

I think going to someone and saying, you're being toxically positive, I think that's generally a really bad idea because it's vague, and I don't know what you're talking about. The best thing is just to break it down into, hey, when someone says this thing, and you say, you know what, that's just the job, let's go. can make that person feel like they're not being heard and like, um, and like they're never going to get supported or that they're, yeah, or they're being dismissed. And then you just coach them on, on delivery and feedback. And again, that's, that's generally how I approach those sorts of things. Um, I would probably try to separate that apart from the perfectionist stuff.

Um, oftentimes, honestly, if you fix the perfectionist stuff, a lot of the other behaviors will go away. And so anyway, I'm not saying I don't care about it, I'm saying it's lower on my priority list, and I really kind of need to know the specifics, and then it's just gonna be a basic, hey, um, the old SBI, this was the situation, this was the behavior that you exhibited, and this is the impact that it had on people.

And, and I was wondering if you could help me out with that or do that differently next

Stephanie Goss: Yeah. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Alright, we are out of time. 

Stephanie Goss: This was a, you know, this was a fun one.

Dr. Andy Roark: was, it's 100 percent worth being out of time for me to get to talk

Stephanie Goss: Wrestling. Pro wrestling. Who knew?

Dr. Andy Roark: thing that's in my brain. I know.

Stephanie Goss: Who knew? All right. Uh, take care everybody. Have a great week.

Dr. Andy Roark: Thanks, everybody!

Stephanie Goss: Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message.You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can. Email us at podcast at uncharted vet. com. Take care everybody and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.

A practice owner is struggling how to communicate taking responsibility even when they didn't do anything wrong. In this episode of the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss tackle a tough mailbag question from a practice owner dealing with a post-surgery complication. After a routine spay, a client reported swelling at the incision site, which quickly escalated to an emergency vet visit. The associate vet who performed the surgery believes they did nothing wrong, as confirmed by the emergency vet. However, the practice owner is considering helping with the ER bill to maintain client trust, but struggles with the associate's concerns about admitting fault. Andy and Stephanie dive into the complexities of balancing client care, maintaining team morale, and upholding the practice’s integrity. They offer insights on handling post-surgical complications, fostering open communication, and navigating the delicate balance between supporting clients and protecting the veterinary team. Let's get into this episode…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Set a reminder for September 18th and join us at the Uncharted Team Leads Summit, an event crafted specifically for veterinary team leaders. We're thrilled to present a lineup of expert speakers, including Dr. Andy Roark on transformative leadership techniques and Sarah Parsons on fostering positivity within your team. Gain essential skills in conflict mediation with Maria Pirita and learn how to be a motivational coach with Kelsey Beth Carpenter and Tyler Grogan. Take advantage of this chance to boost your leadership abilities, overcome typical management hurdles, and elevate your team's performance. Transform your leadership approach and inspire your team at this must-attend summit!

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Episode Transcript

Stephanie Goss: Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are talking about a case where an associate veterinarian had a surgery go wrong and they ended up in the ER. The associate is really frustrated that the practice owner or medical director wants to help reimburse the client for the care that they had to undergo at the ER.

They don't understand why, and there's some tension and this this medical director or a practice owner reached out for some advice on how do I talk about this with the associate? Because I feel like this is the right thing to do for the client. This one brought up both some personal experiences for both Andy and I, and it was a lot of fun to talk about. Let's get into it.

Announcer: And now, the Uncharted Podcast. 

Dr. Andy Roark: It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only Stephanie Blame It On The Rain Cause the rain don't care, Goss. Cause the rain don't mind, or the rain don't, anyway, anyway. (Singing) Blame It On The Rain. Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Goss: I was hoping you would sing it. Thank you. Uh, good morning, Andy Roark. How are you doing? Good morning. 

Dr. Andy Roark: I am, I'm great. I am busy. I'm busy.

Stephanie Goss: You look very tan.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, yeah, I've got, I mean it's summer here. I've been I haven't I haven't burned but I've gotten a tan which is good for me. I have gone full dad mode this summer. I'll just be honest with you. I got full dad mode. I have reached the point in my life Stephanie Goss where I wear big floppy yard hats and have those and I have zero cares.

I have a sun shirt, and a big floppy yard hat, and I wear the zinc based sunscreen, that's, it doesn't matter how much you rub it, it's still white. And like, I, it's funny, cause I look at myself in the mirror, and I was like, this is what has become of you. And I am, I am okay with it. I've had this thought, I'll just tell you this.

You know, Like, to, let me tell you, okay, let's talk about dad jokes for a second, okay? You know what dad jokes are? Dad jokes are a complete flex by a person who has reached a point in their life where they're like, I don't care. I don't need to be cool. I don't need to be cool. And I'm like, how powerful is that?

And it's like, you want to talk about secure? Picture me in my floppy hat with my sun shirt talking about, talking about “Hey, Hey there was a guy who went to a costume party and he walked in with a woman on his back and he told the host, I'm a turtle, and the host said, Okay, but who is that woman on your back? And he says, that's Michelle.” 

And I'm like, that's how I'm living. That's how I'm living today. I like bam. I've got I've got white sunscreen on my face that you can see telling dad jokes because I don't need your approval.

Stephanie Goss: Oh my god, I can't. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Roll up with socks and sandals and don't care. Like, what a flex that is. I just think about being in high school and how in knots I was about how I was perceived.

Versus now. 

Stephanie Goss: Zero F’s given. 

Andy Roark: Zero F's given. I went on this program that my wife was running for college students. And it was her. And me, and 17 college students, and I just dad joked all over them. They were, we were traveling together, so she runs this program to the Galapagos, and we were coming back from this international flight to the Galapagos, and I got these kids that are there, and there were these guys, and one of them has gotten the complimentary pillow from the plane.

You know the one with like the paper like, yeah, the little one, he's got it tucked into his bag. It's like, like he's strapped to his bag, like his backpack. Because he's taking it through security. And I just couldn't help myself. And so I looked at him and said, and we were in the line for TSA, so there's no getting out.

And I said to him, that's not the pillow from the plane, is it? And he said, yeah. And I said, you know, it's illegal to take those.

Stephanie Goss: You're so mean.

Dr. Andy Roark: And the kid next to him goes, Oh shit, I took the blanket. I'm like, you took the blanket? You guys are going down. And then the line moved and I just walked away. And they came up to, oh, they totally, I didn't, I was like, okay, I'm screwing with these guys. I didn't realize that they perceived me as an authority figure because I'm 25.

Stephanie Goss: Who would picture you as an adult?

Dr. Andy Roark: Look, look, I'm married to the authority figure. Like, let's be like, there's no doubt about who's in charge.

Look at this, I am 100 percent sponging a trip to the Galapagos here, like, I am not an authority figure by any measure. And boy, they, I didn't realize that they thought basically one of the professors told them they were going down. I'm sorry, I did not perceive myself in the role that you see me in.

But I don't care, I don't care. Ha, ha, ha.

Stephanie Goss: Oh, God, I can’t. 

Dr. Andy Roark: So, yeah, it's been a good summer. It's been a good summer.

Stephanie Goss: I would agree, I would agree about the dad jokes. I have reached a point now where the kids just think it's hilarious because you know, I, I was inspired earlier this year when we. Maybe it was even last year when we came to Greenville and we started telling dad jokes and you started videoing some of them when we were all together and I was inspired.

And so now I have started a Hey Tyler Grogan series on my Instagram and I love to give Tyler the, the dad jokes because you know, we love dad jokes and Uncharted and so she shares them in our newsletter and stuff. Well, my kids have worked at first they were quite appalled. And I had a conversation with Jackson and he's like, mom, you seriously get on the internet and tell dad jokes.

And I was like, yes, yes, I do. He's like, and someone pays you for that. And I was like, yes.

Dr. Andy Roark: I do yes, it's Andy. Andy pays you for that.

Stephanie Goss: And that was exactly what Riley said. She's like, yeah. And he pays her for that because he's the coolest boss ever.

Dr. Andy Roark: I am a cool. I am a very cool boss. I'm a very cool boss. Sometimes I myself ask myself you, you, you you pay people to do this. Like, this is, like, they're,

Stephanie Goss: Like, right now, like right now when you're staring at me in the camera.

Dr. Andy Roark: Like, right now! I'm like, like, sit still and let me tell you about going through security. Yeah, that actually ties into what we're talking about today a bit. 

Stephanie Goss: Oh my God, speaking of authority figures.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, speaking of authority and what we pay people for let's get in, let's get into this mailbag.

Stephanie Goss: Okay, we got, we got a good one. So, we had a veterinarian and I'm going to assume that it's the practice owner because they said one of their associates. So practice, practice owner, medical director position and one of the associate doctors spayed a pet and a couple days later the client called because there was some swelling at the incision and they sent over a photo.

And the vet took a look at it and said, I, you know, I think it might be a seroma. And a couple hours later, the client sent a text to one of their friends who happens to work at the hospital at the front desk and the intestines were hanging out of the belly. And so the CSR was like, Oh my God, the hospital's closed.

Like you need to go to the, they recognized that it was like an emergency, and they were like, you need to go to the er. So, they, the clinic got the records after the pet had been seen at the ER, everything went, went well. But clearly the suture had ruptured. 

So the doctor at the ER actually told the clients that the knots were still intact and it didn't seem like there was any trauma or anything, but the suture had ruptured, so the pet did really well. At the er. The client was fine and they were contacting the clinic afterwards to talk to them about help her paying for the ER bill. And so, this medical director or practice owner was talking to their associate and trying to figure out what the right thing to do is here.

Because the associate doctor was like, I don't think I did anything wrong. The knots were intact. There wasn't any signs that the pet was licking or that there was trauma. So they were, you know, and the owner said that, I'm assuming, said that they were following the instructions. So the vet is like, the spay was uneventful.

I don't think we, I don't think we did anything wrong. And I feel like if we pay or help the client pay for it, that we're admitting wrongdoing that I don't believe is actual. And so, the medical director or practice owner is like, okay, and I feel like when they said that there was concerns. I don't think that it means that you did anything wrong.

I don't think it means that we did anything wrong in our aftercare or any of that. And this, this authority figure within the practice is feeling like, Hey, maybe we should help support this client because here's someone who reached out to us. We took care of their pet. What should we have done after the fact?

And so they are really struggling. The client has been wonderful. There hasn't been any, you know, drama on social media, but they were like, I would really like to avoid that. 

And so it resulted in kind of, some, some frustration and conversation with the associate because the associate was like, look, hey, I feel like if you help them pay for the surgery, then you're admitting to them that I did something wrong in the surgery. And I don't want to, I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want to see this client. I'm not happy about that because I don't think that I did anything wrong. And so the crux of the email was actually about how do I, as a, as an owner, how do I talk this through with my associate because I need them to understand that sometimes we need to take care of the clients.

And I'm struggling with feeling like they may be a little bit overconfident here. And yes, the ER said that the knots were intact. And yes, it didn't seem like there was any trauma and it was still a surgery that went wrong. And so do we have a responsibility as a clinic to help take care of that client?

And if so, how do I talk to the associate about this? How do I get them to you know, acknowledge the fact that just because we help pay for something or take care of the client doesn't necessarily mean that we're admitting wrong, wrongdoing. That's their, that's their frame of mind as an owner or as someone in charge of the practice.

And they're really struggling with the fact that this associate does not feel the same way and feels really, really. Strongly that they didn't do anything wrong. And so I thought this was a good one. And I was like, Hey, put your Dr. Andy hat on as an, as an associate doctor. And let's kind of talk this one through.

Dr. Andy Roark: So I'm, I'm going to put it on as a business owner and an associate doctor and try to go back and forth.

Dr. Andy Roark: I'm going to say up front, I'm going to say up front, I'm going to struggle with this a little bit because I have strong feelings.

Stephanie Goss: Mhm. Mhm.

Dr. Andy Roark: and you, I'll unpack sort of what they are in a minute.

But I am, I am going to try not to reach for the flaming raging sword of justice. And again, I always say to be careful about justice and like, Anyway, I have strong feelings. But let's let's let's let's again the best thing you can do when you have strong feelings is stop and breathe and and try to understand what they are and set them down and work through this in a I don't know in an organized manner. So that's what I want to do.

All right, cool. So let's start with headspace as we do now for me. The first thing we have to do is figure out What, what the first thing, before we talk to the vet, we have to figure out what we want to say to the vet. Right? Like, we have to kind of work through the issue to be able to articulate our position here.

And so, for me, I talk about headspace, I want to start with headspace facing the client. So this is me imagining looking at the client in the eyes. And I say, you know, not, not how much to deal with them, but what I'm sorry, not what I'm going to say to them, but you know, where's my head need to be? And so there's a, there's a couple of things that I would just put forward.

And some of this is, is I'm trying to parse out what's good business and what is just my personal beliefs about life. And I don't know that I can really do them. So just, just file this away with, I know some of my own beliefs and philosophy are really baked into this. And I'm, I apologize, but it's just, I don't know, I can tease them apart.

I truly believe that at the end of the day, all you've got is your reputation. I just, I believe that. I also truly believe that there is nothing more important in this industry than building and maintaining trust. This is a relationship business, whether you're talking about managing your team or dealing with clients.

And so no, just put, and you can already see where this is going. There's nothing more important than your relationship. Or than your than your reputation, and then there's nothing more important than trust. And again, those two things are tied together tightly because if you build and maintain trust, reputation takes care of itself.

And so if you have to put one over the other, it's trust is the most important thing. And if you serve trust, your reputation will be just fine. So reputation comes from this, this deep seated belief I have about, about trust. And so that's it now. People have heard me, for 10 years at least, say things about online reviews and social media, where I say things like, I have, I have been in the camp of not responding, very often for a long time.

And people have strongly argued with me, and I have not changed my position in 10 years. And like, and I, I, and again, I tend to be someone who listens. And I think of a lot about this. I do not believe that you have to engage with people online. I think that there are, there are things that you could just let go rather than adding fuel to the fire.

I think a lot of times social media and online stuff is a bunch of hand waving and the best thing that you can do, and this is what is key, the best thing you can do is build and maintain. And maintain the trust of the people who actually come to your practice. Take care of the people who actually come to your practice.

And, and everything else will sort of take care of itself. And so, I just wanted to say that up front when people say, is Andy saying that we should bend over backwards for people online? And Andy says reputation matters so, so much. I need to wade into this Facebook group and fight with people who are saying bad things about my practice.

I don't believe that. I think you have to, I think you have to actually walk the talk. The talk and live your values on the ground and that social media garbage will take care of itself and you will bury bad reviews with good reviews from good work that you have done and those things are actually in your control.

And so I just want to say, I know a lot of people have heard me say that they're not contradictory views. In my opinion, it really comes down to what you actually do in the building and how you take care of the people who come in the door. And so when we talk about dealing with clients, it's not about what you did. It's about the experience that the client has. Trust doesn't get built because you did something and then bad things happened. The patterners gauge how good you are, how much they trust you, by the experience that they had when they dealt with you, not by what was your fault and what was outside of your control.

There's also, you know, we talk a lot about Well, I've been thinking a lot recently. I'm starting to write about it more about this idea of internal, external loci of control. And so when we look at people who are content in their life, who are happy, who are satisfied versus people who are struggling with mental health issues and things

like that, one of the key differentiators is where do you see the locus of control in your life?

An internal locus of control means that you have a good amount of control inside your own. Or of power, like your sphere of influence, meaning, you know, I have control of this and external locus of control means that things happen to me and I, I am the victim of those things or I have to, I have to deal with these things that are coming to me now.

We all know that there's things inside this world that you can't control, especially in medicine. However, the more of an internal locus of control you believe you have, the happier and more empowered you are going to feel. And so, when we're talking about the experience a pet owner has, there are a lot of things that are outside of my control.

But I tend to take a very internal locus of control approach. And again, you can look at this. A lot of times you'll hear people talk about taking ownership of as much as you possibly can. And you and I talk about that. And I say, as a leader, I try to take as much ownership as I can. Not because it's the right thing to do.

Not because I truly believe I have no, or I had all the control here. It's because it gives me a sense of empowerment. And it puts me in a position to get the best outcome I can possibly get. We have all dealt with people. Who deal in blame and I think that there's a lot of corporate cultures this way where people don't want to get in trouble I think some of it is just an individual person and how they were raised I think some people they do not they cannot fathom the idea that something was their fault And so they will not take responsibility.

They will push blame to other people. I think that is a really toxic trait It is something I never ever want to have in my company. I have always tried really hard To not ever make it so that my employees would not take ownership of mistakes. And so I try really hard not to punish people, you know, just say, Hey, mistakes happen.

We're all human. We all make mistakes. And I truly lean into that because if you don't lean into that, you will foster that mentality of this wasn't my fault. This was, this was someone else's fault. I did what I was supposed to do. Someone else made a mistake and it go to so unproductive. And it just, you can't fix problems, you can't get things done, it's, it's a horrible way to live.

And so, anyway, there's, there's sort of that internal locus of control supporting the idea that we just take ownership. And things are outside of our control, but we take as much ownership as we can, so that we can move forward. There's, there's There's a big question again, like this is just so fundamental for what we teach at Uncharted, and people who listen to the podcast have heard us talk about this a million times.

What are your, what are your core values? Like, what is your why? Why, why do you, why are you in this business? What do you care about? And then what are your core values? And so one of the core values, and I said this is hard for me not to reach for the flaming, raging sort of justice, is that one of my core values is integrity.

Meaning I, I I want to do what I say I'm going to do. I want to treat people fairly, you know, if I say I'm going to take your money and perform a service, I want that service to get performed. I'm not, I don't want to take your money and then not have that, not have that turn out the way that I said it was going to turn out.

And it's not about me. Is this my fault or something I couldn't control? I told you I would deliver an experience and I took your money. And so for me, that's, that, that hits on my integrity, core value. I know other people might feel differently. And that's why I said, it's hard for me to tease these things apart versus what is my personal philosophy on life, but that's, that's just kind of how I see the world.

Stephanie Goss: Yes. I, I would agree with that and I think looking at who you are as a practice is really important. And I think from a Headspace perspective, what I'm reading between the lines in this is that this is a practice owner who does care about the client and does care about the client experience and they're not looking at it from a place of negativity or blame or like you did something wrong, that's why I want, that's why I would consider paying for this.

They, I think they are looking at it from that Headspace that you're talking about, which is. What are their core values? What is important to them? What is that client experience? And it's, it's funny that you I mean, not funny that integrity is your core value, but, but in that, that I I had an experience as a, as a practice manager where we had this and reading this made me think about this a lot.

So we had a a patient we had a client who called, we hadn't seen them in probably a year. For five years, they had previously been a client of the prior practice owners. So this was a practice that I came in after the practice had been sold The prior practice owners were no longer in the practice. We hadn't seen them since. And they called in there like, Hey our dog is at like, I, I think that our dog is in heat. And I was like, okay. And then in my head, I'm thinking, why am I getting this call as the manager? Like, why did the front, why did the front desk send this to me?

And I'm like, oh, okay. So I opened the chart and I'm taking a look at it. And I'm like, oh, that's why this is a problem because this dog has been spayed. And I'm like okay. And she's like, I don't, I, I don't, I don't know, but like, there's definitely something weird going on. And I'm like, okay. I was like, why don't you, why don't you come in for, for an exam and we'll just take, take a look at it.

And so I went to my doctors and I was like, Hey, I've already said that you know, I've set this client up that, that I don't know what's going on. We might charge them, but also we might not charge them for this exam because this pet was already spayed and I don't, you know, I want, I want us to be able to get to the bottom of it.

So they came in, long story short the pet sure was showing signs of being in heat. And I was just like, Okay, well, so, so I was in that situation of like, what do I do? This was a surgery that, yes, the hospital did, but not even our existing staff participated in. There's very, you know, that I can't tell from the chart.

What may or may not have happened and, and I wanted to do the right thing by the client because here was someone who wasn't screaming and yelling that her dog who was spayed five years ago now is showing signs that it's in heat. She was really calm and she's like, I just want to know what's going on.

And so ultimately I, I wound up sending her to the specialty clinic. Cause I was like, I really want a surgeon to take a look at this pet. And my doctors agreed. They were like, we'll do it. But also what happens if we do it and then we find something weird and it needs to go to the surgeon anyways. And so we talked about it as a group and I said, okay, and so I offered to the client.

I said, I, I will, we will pay for you to, to go and see what happens. And if it is, if it is something relating to the surgery, like, of course we want to take care of that. Because you entrusted your pet's care to us and it doesn't matter that it's been five years. It doesn't matter that. It was not even a member of this team.

You entrusted the, the pet to us. And so for me, that was an integrity thing. And I had one of my doctors who was really struggling with that because she's like, well, why would we pay for something that may or may not be our, our quote unquote fault? And I said, because it's, it's not about. It's not about, it's, it's about doing the right thing by the client.

It's about, this is a small community and this is, yes, and they're like, but they're not even our client anymore. Like they haven't been in, in five years. And I said, yes, and. What about if this could be one of those experiences where the client is thrilled with the care that they get from us now and they become a client, and they share that experience out into the community?

Like, this is an opportunity for us to do the right thing, just because it's the right thing. If it comes back to us, that's great. But if it doesn't, it's still just the right thing to, to do. And so it was, but it was that it was a hard conversation with the team because they were like, well, I don't, I don't understand.

But to your point, Andy, for me on a personal level, I was like, it's about integrity. Like we, we, we spayed this pet. We said, yes, we have taken care of your pet and maybe, maybe we did, and maybe this has nothing to do with the surgery itself, but maybe it does. And so, you know, if it does. That's why we have, you know, liability insurance.

That's why, you know, like that's, that's, it's a cost of doing business and it for, for me in that perspective. And so as a manager, it was just like, Hey, this is the right thing for the, for the client and for the pet. And so I just think I, I agree with you on that, that regard. I think part of it is figuring out. Who you, who you are as a clinic and what your, what your core values are. And I think in this case, it, it speaks to me that this is, and I'm not saying that that doesn't mean that the associate doesn't also have those same core values. I think that from this perspective though, it definitely sounds like the practice owner is coming at it from that, Hey, what's the, what's the thing that feels good here?

And you know, how do I, how do I take care of that client and give them that, that experience?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. No, I I completely agree with that and again, like I said It's it's hard for me to to tease apart, you know, the core value part from the other part You know, I haven't I've never told this story before but I'll tell it I'll tell him though because it's been about 10 years I I have missed one speaking gig in my career

Stephanie Goss: I didn't know if you wanted to tell this story. That's why I just told the other one because I was like, Ooh, I don't know if he's going to tell this story.

Dr. Andy Roark: I have not, it's the first time I tell the story.

I'll tell it. I, I have missed one speaking gig in my entire career. So 15 plus years and I, I have missed one gig and I was signed up for it and it was a mistake on, on on our team. And so we like the scheduling on our side got bungled and I did not show up for a gig that I was supposed to speak at and I was supposed to do I was supposed to do a presentation, and it was in Canada, and I, I didn't, I didn't get there, and that was, it's happened one time, I've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of engagements, and that was one time it happened, and I felt, I was devastated, and so I, I joined virtually, and I, I, I did it, sort of did a little thing virtually, sort of at the end of the day and everything, and, and, and sort of tried to, to do it that way, but it was not what I had said that I would do, and it, it really bothered me, and so I did not, Accept payment for the, for the job, obviously.

And then, I went to Canada. I, I flew myself up there, and I drove to the hospitals that were at that event, and I talked to them at their hospital. It took me three days, and I drove to the hospitals that were there, and I talked to them in their, in their treatment rooms. And again, it, it was, you know, it's just, it

Stephanie Goss: I think, well, I think that's a true Testament of the, of the intake, you living your, your value of integrity. It's that question of like, what, what do you need to sleep soundly at night? Okay. as kind of the litmus test that I use, and I think it's the same for you. It's like, you could have done, you could have just joined virtually and said, I'm really sorry.

Like, yes, we made this mistake and this is what I can do for you. And for you, the right thing felt like, I, I feel this deeply. And 

Dr. Andy Roark: I said I would go 

Stephanie Goss: those clients, 

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I said I would go there and talk to them. And that's what I said. And again, I just, I believe that, you know, I know, again, you and I talk a lot about boundaries and setting boundaries. And so I'm not saying that I am your whipping boy and I will sacrifice myself and my relationship with my family and my staff to meet your every whim.

That's important to note here. If I say I'm going to do it, then I'm going to do it. If I say I'm going to take care of something for you, I am going to do everything in my power to take care of something for you. And so, anyway, that's, that's kind of how I am because of what I said at the beginning. At the end of the day, all you got is your reputation.

You know what I mean? That's all you got. And so, that's kind of it. And I want to jump back real quick to something you said about this is the cost of doing business in vet medicine. When you say, we're going to send this to a specialist, we're going to have them look at it, and I don't know if it's our fault or not.

It was five years ago. But we're going to do it and we're going to make this investment because that's the cost of doing business. And I so strongly believe in that, Stephanie. I think that everybody should just get their head around the idea that there are hidden costs of doing business in veterinary medicine.

There are going to be euthanasias that you do for free. And you should be okay with that. When someone comes in and they're like, I just saw this cat get hit by a car and it's suffering, clearly suffering, and it doesn't have a collar on or whatever, I'm not gonna necessarily, I'm not gonna charge that client for euthanasia because it's not their cat and just, anyway, and you can argue, we can get into details or whatever, but you get the point.

Sometimes, just put the cat to sleep. You know what I mean? Just, it's suffering and we're doing it and we're, it's, it's, it's a cost, it's a cost of Doing what we do for a living, you know, if you have boarding in your practice, you're going to have to deal with diarrhea cases at inconvenient times. That is a cost of doing business this way.

If you have grooming in your practice, you're going to have to see clipper burns and skin infections and ear infections. Like you're going to have to deal them. It is baked into the business that we do. If you're going to take payment plans, you're going to get burned in payment plans. My advice to you is to know, just know that you're going to get burned and be okay with it and see it not as an indictment of humanity and society collapsing morally, but just as part of, be smart, but just as part of, our job in this profession, sometimes there are going to be cases that come in that the staff is going to be morally just crushed if you don't help.

And the fact that the person can't necessarily afford that help, you know what I mean? We've all seen that of like, We tell them we're not about the money and then sometimes you have to put your money where your mouth is and say we said it's not all about the money this is a case where we're going to suck it up and we're going to do some good now that should not be how you live every day and again once I open this door but there is sometimes when you're going to have to just be

Stephanie Goss: Yes Well, 

Dr. Andy Roark: sacrifice because that's what it means to be a moral being with the powers that we have as veterinarians, but it's not as often as people think, but every now and then you have to show your character.

You have to show your character.

Stephanie Goss: Yes, and I think it's, it's interesting because I had this, I had this same conversation in a different way when you did an episode on Cone of Shame, I think, with our friend Tanejia Crocker and uh, you guys were talking about, you know, fees and she's an ER veterinarian and you were talking about fees in the ER and, and discounting or not charging for services and.

Yeah. When she started talking about this she, she's a speaker as well, when she started talking about it, she did a, a lecture on it, I think, at Western. And I got into it with some manager colleagues who were just like, absolutely not. Like, you charge for your services and that's how we, you know, that's how we instill value in what we do for clients.

And for me, it's a yes and, right? It's a yes, yes, we should charge for our services. Yes, we should take care of the business end. And we also have a responsibility to take care of the pets and the clients. And so I think this is a case of the yes and, and for, and for me, when we get to, when we get into action steps here in just a minute.

When you're talking about the conversation with the associate veterinarian, it is very much a yes and conversation because you can, you can, like your, I love your example about the hidden cost of, of business and grooming is, is a great one. Like you can have a great conscientious team that does a wonderful job and takes care of patients.

And at some point. You're going to get clipper burn or like I had I we had a pet where it was the best cat ever you could groom It lion cut no sedation She would just chill and sit there and yet one time she got clipped and she got clipped Like it needed action like she was getting older and had diabetic skin and it got clipped and it needed wound repair, right?

Do we, do we take care of that? Do we just say to the client, you know, we're, we're, we're, this is the coolest client ever. Do we do it because they're a cool client? No, we do it because it's the right thing to do. And because that should be built into our business model to, to your point. And for me as the manager, I don't want to have to be the one who makes all of those decisions either or as the practice owner.

I want to cultivate a culture where the team knows where it's okay. Like there has to be systems and processes is my point where I'm going with this and I really want to talk about it when we get to action steps because I think that it's totally okay to have that be a hidden part of the business and it should, it should be It shouldn't be dependent upon the voice of authority in the practice saying, okay, we're going to discount this thing, or okay, we're not going to pay for this thing.

this thing. The whole team should know if you're, if you truly believe in a culture or you have a culture where integrity matters or compassionate care or kindness, like if you're, if those are part of your core values, this is where you live it out. This is where you show up for the clients and the patients.

And this is how you demonstrate that.

Dr. Andy Roark: I got switching over to the headspace for the associate that because now we gotta talk to associate One of my big things with the associate is I need to try to understand because my flaming raging sword of justice Says when you say to me, that's not my fault That makes me mad like and I don't tend to get very mad But that is that is if you ever want to make me mad really fast When we're trying to fix a problem, just say to me, this is not my fault.

Because I don't give a crap whose fault it is. I just want it fixed. And like the whole, this is not my fault, like that, ooh, that snails on chalkboard to me. I, I, hate that mentality. I

do not want 

Stephanie Goss: that that's where your head goes.

Dr. Andy Roark: I know. I, as I said, that's why I said, like, I know it's a triggering thing for me. But that's, that's not really how I feel.

And that's, that's, when, you know how we tell ourselves 

Stephanie Goss: that that's where, that that's where your head goes is like, oh, this is the, this, they're saying like, I, I am not my fault. Cause when, cause when I read it and I hear that from an associate, my head immediately goes to, oh, they're afraid. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Yes, that's, that's the right answer.

Stephanie Goss: my experience that has been, there is some underlying concern or fear about fault or blame or a board case or whatever, almost every single time that I've dug into that reaction with a team member, there is something that has nothing to do with that actual situation, but it is about, it is about fear.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, well, you're spot on. That's, that's what we have to do, is don't do what I just said, which is jump to a conclusion about why this person is saying what they're saying. The, the conversation with them is, why do you feel this way? What do you, what are your, what are your concerns in us? And say, well, it's not really our fault.

Well, yes, we didn't do anything wrong. Mm hmm. But this pet had intestine hanging out After we sent it home That's not it. That's not acceptable. Do you agree right like that's not an okay outcome Right. I would I would sort of try to try to understand that I think we've got I think we've got a little bit of a warped relationship in some instances with some of the associates today, where there's like, imagine a spectrum, right, in a practice of, on one end of the spectrum is tyranny, where the practice owner, the medical director, rules with an

Stephanie Goss: you do. Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, exactly. Then the other end of the spectrum is anarchy, where no one is in charge, there is, like, everybody does what they want to do, and again, we're always in that spectrum, and there's not a right place, and I think we drift on that spectrum, and that's probably good. It's probably anarchy.

unavoidable that we're going to have a little bit of a pendulum and that's what I've seen in my career is I Lean a little bit too far into everybody just kind of do Everybody I trust you guys to do what you want to do And then things kind of get kind of Muppet showy and then we kind of tighten back down and then maybe we Maybe we go a little bit too hard on building systems and rules and then we have to and then we have to loosen back Up, but I really do think that that's probably what life is And so, you know We've talked about how we feel about the practice and the experience of the client.

To me, as the practice owner, what the associate vet wants in this scenario, I don't want to say it's not important to me because I want the associate to be, I want them to understand But I know what, I know what I'm going to do. And if it's not a discussion, this is not a democracy, I'm going to make this right.

That's what I'm going to do. And I want the associate to feel as good as possible about that. But their buy in is not required for me to do this thing that I believe is Is what needs to happen to be right. And so I don't know that this person is feeling that way, but I just want to say if you're living in the space where we don't do things unless the associates buy into them, especially in a case like this, I think we need to swing the pendulum back the other way a little bit.

And we know Again, if you're the medical director, if you're the practice owner, if you're the practice manager, remember what your job is, and I've told you this a million times, guys. Your job is to achieve, as best you can, its balance of everyone's needs. That's, that's the techs, that's the vets, that's the front desk, that's the practice owner, or that's the practice owner, that is the clients, that is the patients, like, We need to try to balance their needs.

And sometimes, one of those party goes, I don't want to do this, and everybody else needs it. And if everybody else needs it, I'm sorry. I know you don't like this, but this is what we're going to do. And so that's just I think that's a head space for the Associate Is. I want to try to understand, and again, it's not going to change what I do, but why do you feel that way?

What are you worr Have I made you feel like? You're going to be in trouble? Like, I don't want you to feel like you're going to be in trouble. Do I make you feel? If I don't make you feel that way, are you worried the client's going to think that you're incompetent? You know, like, I get it. These things happen, and I'm fine to say, sometimes suture breaks.

Sometimes, you know, sometimes things happen that are beyond our control. You know, like the the pet going into heat after being spayed is a great example. Like, I am not going to look you in the eye and be like, I would never, I would never leave ovarian remnants. Like, it could never happen to me. It could totally happen to me!

There's, there's, and when there's crazy anatomy in pets, and like, there's just, if things happen, if you do enough space at some point, there's gonna be something that happens, and it's like, I think we should all be open about that and just honest and go, you know, I set out to do it, and it's not done, and all I can do is go back in there and fix it and make it right.

That's all, that's the only power I have. But I'm not gonna let this dictate how I feel about myself. You know what I mean? I feel like I'm less than.

Stephanie Goss: Well, and I think that there can be an assumption here, at least in my experience in this particular instance with spay, I think there can be an assumption that it has to be all or nothing. And that was definitely the conversation with. Uh, With my team when it came to talking to the associate doctors and I, the doctor who was just like, well, I don't think that we should pay for that because then we're telling them that we did something wrong.

And I was like, I don't, I don't, I disagree. And to your point, Andy, it was like, this is my responsibility as a manager. I've already made this decision. This is not up for discussion. I just want you guys to understand why we're doing it. And I want there to be a you know, a really clear understanding that.

They may go and I may pay all of their visit. I may pay some of their visit, right? But I'm going to pay something because this is, this is the scenario that that came up because I've done the work from an action step perspective to make sure that the client understands that life happens, right? And, and it may have, it may have had something to do with the surgery, but it may not.

And I think that's where this practice owner is coming from is trying to, wanting to be in a space where. Would it have been different if this client came in and saw us for that follow up? Like when we saw the picture and we said, it looks a little swollen. If we had had the pet come to us, would, would they have had the same expenses?

Maybe. They may, would have, right? And so part of it is like, well, what could, to your point there at the very beginning, what can we, what can we control here? And so I think part of that with the associate is trying to understand. Seeking first to understand and being able to put down that flaming raging sort of justice and, and asking them, like, tell me, tell me what you're really concerned about and why you're concerned about it.

And to your point, Andy, I think you can, as the authority figure, you can tell them, this is what I'm doing and I still want you to feel seen and heard. And so please tell me more, you know, like that's, as a parent, that's what we do all the time. I had that conversation with my kids last night. I love you and get your butt into the bathroom and brush your damn teeth because you're not going to bed without brushing your teeth.

Because that's, that's a, that's a rule and it's there for your oral health and hygiene. And I'm taking care of you for your whole life. I'm thinking about your teeth 30 years from now. I don't care that you want to stay up, get in the bathroom, right?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.

Stephanie Goss: It's that same thing. Like I'm being the authority figure.

I'm making the decision and I can still have compassion and I can still make you feel seen and heard.

Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, I completely agree. I think you and I are on the same, same page here is, you know, come from a place of curiosity, come from a place of compassion you can validate, hey sometimes these things happen. I mean, I've had, I've had patients that had suture reactions. And like, they just, and like, now they've got ooze and goo and things like that.

I'm like, I didn't do anything wrong. You're a freaky deaky pet is the one that's having a reaction to the most common suture used in America, you know, but, but, but here we are. And now they, they dropped this thing off for a spay and now she's got pus coming out of her, or, you know, or fluid coming incision and I go.

I, well, I'm going to fix it. You know what I mean? It's just, it's kind, it's kind of what it is. And to me, I put that under the cost of doing business. Because if you bring your patent, then, and I say we're going to do it, then we're going to, we're going to, we're going to try to get it done.

Stephanie Goss: And I think that I want us where I think we're going to take a break and talk and then come back and talk about action steps. And I want us to talk about this here because what I think is really important that everybody here right now is that neither one of us is saying. that it is always about you taking the responsibility and doing the things for free.

Because like your example just now, Andy, like when you have a pet that has the suture reaction, that was my thought here was maybe the pet reacted to the suture and that's why it burst. Like there's weird things that happen all the time. And as a manager, that would absolutely be a scenario where I might not.

Pay for the whole thing

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah,

Stephanie Goss: because I'm going to have a detailed conversation where the client also feels seen and heard and understands that there are things that we cannot control. Like we can control a lot in veterinary medicine. We do not control everything. And part of that is in how we set up those conversations both with the associate and with the client.

So let's take a, let's take a quick break and then let's come back and let's talk about those action steps.

Dr. Andy Roark: Sounds great.

Stephanie Goss: Hey friends. I know that Andy and I both talk a lot on the podcast about upcoming events that Uncharted has because A, we love what we do and we have fun talking about it and B, we want you to be a part of it. So we want to make sure that nobody misses out on announcements that we have awesome stuff coming up and C, because our team is freaking rock stars and they make sure that our website stays up to date with all of the information about the events.

So that you can find us and you can join us and you can spend some time working. On your business and not just in it with us, with the community, with our awesome outside speakers and more so if you haven't headed over to the website recently and checked out the events page, uncharted vet.com.

forward slash events. You should because it is jam packed full of all 2024. We've been talking about some of the awesome things that are dropping this year that are brand new, fresh and exciting for us. We've been talking about the oldies, but goodies, the things that we're continuing to do for our community, for you and beyond in 2024 and.

We're talking about stuff that is yet to come. So head over to unchartedvet. com forward slash events and check out everything that is on the website. We want to see you there. And now back to the podcast. 

Dr. Andy Roark: All right. So let's jump in with some action steps here. Big ones for me. You need, you need to, well, first of all, you need to figure out a loose plan of what you're going to say to the client. I think you're spot on. The, the, the two, the only two options are not, I'm going to pick up the whole tab at the emergency clinic or I'm going to pay for nothing.

I think you have to go talk to the client and see where their head's at. See what the what the emergency doctor said to them. What they saw. Maybe talk to the emergency doctor. Definitely, maybe look at the reports. I would talk to the emergency doctor. Just be like, what did you see? What happened? And then I would say, hey, this is kind of where we are.

You know, this is, this is why this happened. And again, it goes back to credibility. Credibility is telling the patent owner what to do. What happened, why it happened, and what we're going to do to reduce the risk of it happening to other people in the future. And I would, I would try to have a plan for that.

But you are going to have to talk to the pet owner and sort of see where their head's at. You know, it was funny in this, in this letter. The person said, they haven't done anything on social media, but I want to head it off. To me, kind of part of integrity is, it's kind of one of those things where it bothers me, this idea that people who bash us get treated better than people who Who silently put up with the same thing.

But because they're nice and they don't want to damage our small business, they don't go online. And so they don't get the treatment that the person who's like, I'm gonna burn you down gets. And so I'm kind of like, nah. It doesn't, to me, doesn't matter whether they put on social media or not. Does, does it, does it matter?

To feel like the right thing, you know, how do I feel about it? And so, anyway, some of that is just sort of getting an action plan, remembering your credibilities, right? 

Stephanie Goss: Hmm.

Dr. Andy Roark: you know, if, if the pet owner reached out during business hours and said, Hey, I'm seeing this. And we said, Oh no, it's probably fine. I would say I would focus on that as that was our opportunity to get a man and saying, Hey, anytime you're.

Not sure things look okay after surgery, you should come in. I, I think that that was the step that was probably missed and just, That's one of those things where 99 times out of 100, they're gonna come in, You're gonna say, it's fine, you're gonna send them away. But that 1 out of 100 time, that's, that's a, that's a big deal.

Stephanie Goss: And I think that's a, I think that's the conversation with the associate is that it's a judgment call, right? And the reality of judgment calls is that sometimes we get it right and sometimes we get it wrong. Did we get it wrong in this case? I don't, I don't know, because maybe they would have come in and maybe the same thing would have happened.

Maybe they would have still sent it home because maybe it looks it, maybe it actually in person looks like a seroma, right? But we didn't afford ourselves that opportunity and that's what I would focus on as a, as a manager in terms of coaching is Maybe it still would have worked out the same exact way and we, the judgment call, didn't allow us the opportunity to even make that decision for ourselves, right?

And so, like, acknowledging the fact that judgment calls, sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. But it's, it's not about, it's not about blaming. And it's not about accepting fault. It's about apologizing for the impact that this had, right? And so from the, from the associate perspective, that's going to be my area of focus.

One is going to be figuring out what the underlying concerns are, making them feel seen and heard. So what, what is going on here? Like, what are you afraid of? What is your concern? What do you think would, is going to happen if we offer to pay for this? care. And why do you feel like the client is judging your medicine?

Where are those feelings coming from? You know, and, and figuring out how you can make them feel seen and heard, and also do some coaching with them to get them to understand that there are some things that you're going to just decide that they might not like. And that's just a part of being, being in a, in a group practice.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, right. No, I completely, I completely agree. I think you're, I think you're, I think you're spot on. You know, it's, It's very much in that line of, you know, I hear you, You know, this is, this is what we're going to do and, and not getting bogged too far down in it. I really, I don't want to compare our staff or our veterinarians to, to, to children, but I think that there's some parallels in that relationship of, it's, you're the, especially as a practice owner, like, you're, you're the, it's your, it's your reputation, it's your practice, and I want everybody to feel heard, and at some point I'm gonna have to make the call And everybody's going to have to get on board with it.

Now, I don't want them to feel steamrolled, but not everybody's going to like every choice that we make. And the big thing is, is you as a practitioner, you have a lot of power to make this a big deal or not make it a big deal. And you know at some point you just you can just say well I hear you this is what i'm going to do and this is sort of how i'm going to phrase it And so this is or or just say this is what I did This is this is what this is what was done is how we 

Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm. 

Dr. Andy Roark: you know, and and and go forward if you have someone who cannot Go on If their will is not followed in every decision, they're not gonna be on your team for long anyway.

And so that's that's okay. We need to normalize that if we can be nice and ultimately make the decision that needs to happen. But again, you're playing at a higher level. The doctor is looking at their own case. You're looking at All the cases, all the doctors, all the payroll, all the marketing, all the position in the community.

You look at all those things, they're trying to make the best call, and you can say that to them and say, Well, this is, this is a decision that we made. And you know, we emphasize that we didn't think there was anything wrong with the surgery, but a suture, suture failure is a thing. And let's just say, There was suture failure, possibly a reaction to the suture that was used you know, is one of those things.

It's like a side effect in medications. These things happen sometimes. We want to help try to make it, make it right and support you in the bat. Again, this is, it's a, it's an unfortunate situation, but we, we want to try to do what we can to help support you guys.

Stephanie Goss: and we talked a lot about building trust with the client, and I think the other piece of this, for me in the associate conversation, other than getting to the bottom of it, which I think that you have to do, and coming to the place where there is acceptance, and hopefully they feel seen and heard by you just starting to ask those open ended questions of, you know, like, I'm coming from a place of positive inquisition, like I want, I genuinely want to understand like what, what is going on here.

There has to be trust with the associate. And if you have a trusted relationship with them, you should be able to say to them, Hey, Do you trust me to have your back with this client and have this conversation? I am not going to say that you did anything wrong. I believe that you did the right things and it is possible for me to believe that you did everything right, that you're a competent surgeon and to be able to express that to the client and still do the thing that I feel like shows our integrity as a core value or is the right thing by the client.

And if you trust me, I should be able to have that conversation on your behalf. There may not, there may not be trust there. And that may be another conversation that you need to have with them. But we talked about that from the client perspective. I think it's equally, if not more important from the associate perspective, because the associate is feeling feelings clearly from the message that we got about not wanting to see the client and feeling like the client is judging them.

I, I need to understand where all of that is coming from because my first offer would be, do you wanna be in the room when I talk to the client? Because I, I've made that offer to my team. Like, I'm happy to have you sit here and listen to me, talk to the client, because I want you to know that I'm going to have your back.

It is possible for me to explain this sit situation to the client is possible for me to have the conversation with the client that, hey, sometimes things happen, sometimes suture fails. It may have been no mistake and. that have to been still opened. So the reality is the client still has to deal with that.

And so I want them to feel seen and heard. And you're welcome to sit in on that conversation. If it makes you uncomfortable or you don't want to be in the room or on the phone, I need, I need you to trust me. And there should be a trust bank there as a team member to dip into to have that conversation on your behalf.

Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, I think you're, I think you're onto it. I don't know that I would go as far as to offer the person to be there. Again, just for me, I'm kind of like, look, this is, this is an extra. I mean, you're not wrong necessarily. To me, It's just kind of where my boundaries are, like look, you and I were talking about it.

And here's the other thing too. I would not commit to anything talking to the vet. I would say, look, I hear you. This is, this is what I'm looking at. I'm looking at our practice reputation. I am looking at, you know, this idea that they, they paid for surgery. And later that day, they were in the emergency clinic with, with Belle hanging out.

And like, I'm not saying that you did anything wrong. And I would not, and I won't stress that to, we can't act like this was the outcome that we anticipated. And the pet owner should feel fine about it. Like that's, that's, you, you don't, you don't believe that. And so, but we're gonna have to go talk to them.

Just so you know. And then, I would try to get that trust and then I would go talk to the pet owner because here's the thing, you can't promise anything until you see what they say. And so that would just sort of be it. But to me, I think trying to keep the stakes low and just sort of say, I hear you, I understand why this is important to you.

This is kind of where we are with the clinic. This is what we got to do. This is the type of, this is our clinic reputation. This is, this is how I want our pet owners to feel treated. I want them to be confident that things are going to get taken care of. And again, not your fault, but we, we have to clean up the mess because sometimes things go wrong.

That's just. Part of doing business in vet medicine, you know, and, and then I would just go do it. I would do whatever I could to not make it a big high stakes thing and just, just try to have the conversation and move past it. And what I don't want to do is have six meetings about it and, you know, include people in a bunch of conversations.

Like it's, all of that just builds it up as opposed to. Nope, it happened. I understand you didn't do anything wrong. You're concerned about them thinking you're a bad doctor. I'm not gonna let them think you're a bad doctor. I'm gonna do everything I can to frame this in a positive way for us in practice.

It doesn't make our practice look good. If they think that you made mistakes like we're gonna, I'm gonna go to bat for you. But ultimately, I'm going to do what we need to do to make this client as happy as I can and to make sure that we feel like our clients are getting the service and support that that we're going to feel good about.

Good about giving the money that we asked for that from them in exchange And so then I would go do it and then I would just be I would either not say anything after that or i'd come Back and be like, hey, just so you know, this is kind of what we worked out She was cool with it. Everything's fine You know bam and then i'd be done and I would not and like I would move past it and go on with my life

Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that, I think that follow up is really important of like, this is what, this is what happened. This was the end result. And this is how we're moving on.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yep, it's short, short and sweet and just it's not a let's have a sit down meeting. It's just a man. That's what the worry 

are 

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, 

Dr. Andy Roark: and And the last thing it says in the communicating with a client. My only thing in the action steps of communicating the client is Start with compassion. How are you doing?

How did did you feel like you were treated well at the emergency clinic?

You know, how is, how is Scrappy doing?

And just start with that and just say, hey, obviously this is not something that we wanted. We've talked to the emergency doctors. You know, they don't know what happened either. All of the knots were intact.

There doesn't seem to be anything that was done wrong surgically. I don't know why we have suture, suture failure. It could have been, it could have been defective product. It could have been it could have been a, a reaction to the suture. And sometimes we can get allergic reactions to suture. There is a foreign.

Object and obviously it's made to produce a smaller reaction as possible But the body does strange things and sometimes we get stronger reactions and it's possible that that it that it that it broke down I I don't know. We want to try to help make this make this right. You know and and and just and go from there and sort of see, you know What can we do to support you and ask them ask them that and and then kind of roll with it from there

Stephanie Goss: and I think this is where, as a, the last thing for me is as a practice owner and as a practice manager, the number one thing that I think a lot of us forget in that moment, cause we're so focused on the vet and the client and who's going to pay and all of those things. Is Sometimes these things happen, and this is where our, our industry partners are our friends.

Like, you should absolutely call the product line and let them know, hey, this may, like, we had this case and we just wanted to report it because when those freaky things happen, A, that's how they know that there could be cost for concern, but maybe there's not, right? But it's not until they see a certain number of those cases that they're like, oh, hey, huh this batch of suture. We've had this many reports on this thing. Maybe we should do something about that. That's where like that, that for me was always the extra step. And, and I was like, you know, let me let someone know about this. And the other piece of it was I never did it with this intention. And it also really was great when those partners would say, Oh, Well, we have a process, fill out this form and we'll help take care of those costs at the ER or we'll help reimburse you for what, you know, what, whatever, we'll send you free suture.

Like that's where, that's part of taking care of the client. That's part of doing our due diligence as scientists on the medicine side is to say, Hey, this weird thing happened and someone else should know about it because maybe it's an anomaly, but maybe it's not.

Dr. Andy Roark: No, I think that's great to talk to the pet parent about, too, and it falls into that credibility thing of, hey, this is not normal, and we're not, we're not treating it as normal. The last thing I would say is just, and this is probably jumping back to Headspace, but I think it's a good place to put it here at the end action stepwise, you should do what is worthy of the reputation you want your practice to have.

That, that's, that's what you should do with the client. And, and what I'm, what I sort of say here is, I think it's, a lot of times people get really wound up about precedent. And if we do this, we'll have to do it again, and blah, none of that, none of that's true. Like that, that's, that's not true. Every case is going to be different. The other thing is I would ask the practice owner here and say, How often do things like this happen to you? Once every five years something like that Just eat it just eat it to me. You know what I mean? It's just it's not worth it If if now if it's happening once a month, we've got bigger problems Than than what we said the client in this specific instance we gotta figure out what's going on But if this is a weird lightning strike thing Yes, it sucks and it sucks to to have to help pick up the tab or even pick up the whole tab But if it happens once every couple of years Your peace of mind is worth something.

The story I just, I told about going to Canada, I would rather that be the story that gets told. And if anyone ever comes back and says, I heard it one time, Andy Roark didn't show up for one of his speaking gigs. I would say, it happened one time. And this is what I did to try to make it right. Because that's how much it bothered me.

And, was that overkill? Maybe, probably. Would I, do I expect other people to behave the same way? No. I,

Stephanie Goss: But it's what made you be able to sleep at night.

Dr. Andy Roark: But I, yeah, I sleep very soundly. And, and again, it's, but if, if it was, if I was missing gigs all over the place, uh, I would, I would have, I'd have, I'd have bigger problems. So anyway, but that was, again, a long time ago.

But that's, but that's what I needed to feel okay. And I do feel okay. I was like, yep, it happened. I did my absolute best to make it right. And then I went on with my life.

Stephanie Goss: Yeah. Whew. This is a fiery one.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh man. Thanks for doing this with me.

Stephanie Goss: Have a, this is, thank you. This is, this is fun. Have a fantastic week, everybody.

Dr. Andy Roark: Thanks, everybody. 

Stephanie Goss: Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message.

You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com forward slash mailbag, or you can. Email us at podcast at unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.