Help! I Have A Micromanaging Manager

This medical director is struggling with a micromanager who is now overstepping on the medicine side of the practice. Dr. Andy Roark and practice management super nerd, Stephanie Goss take on this mailbag to help a team member deal with a manager that makes jokes about being the boss and making the decisions. The rest of the team finds it more threatening than funny and now, some of those micromanaging tendencies are starting to slip into the medical protocols. Let's get into this episode…

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Episode Transcript

Stephanie Goss: Hey, everyone. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted podcast. And this week on the podcast, Andy and I are taking an email from the mailbag from someone who is struggling with feeling like their partner, we think, at the practice. In this case, it is an animal shelter, but this is really a situation that is applicable to all practices.

So Andy and I widened the lens and talked about what do you do when you're really struggling with a micromanaging manager? This is not this person's manager, but the manager within the practice, and they are really doing some hardcore micromanaging that has this partner in crime, who's the medical director, feeling like you.

They are in a toxic environment and they are wondering, can I fix this or do I need to get out? I think my favorite part of this episode is the conversation about how we try to put ourselves in other people's shoes.

And really, how do we get into that safe headspace where we're assuming good intent when we're really frustrated and or really angry at the situation? This was a fun one. Let's get into it.

Dr. Andy Roark: And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only Stephanie, all over you, all over me, Goss. Stephanie, our love is like water.

I think that's what he says. Our love is like water. I don't think, I don't know what that means. 

Stephanie Goss:  It's just rushing on by.

Dr. Andy Roark: It just, it just runs through your hands and into the earth. Yes. 

Stephanie Goss:  There's no permit, there's no permanence to our love Andy Roark.

Dr. Andy Roark: Exactly right, yeah. It lasts about 10 minutes in a hot car and then it's just done. Like, when the temperature goes up, our love evaporates. And there's none, no left. That’s it. 

Stephanie Goss:  That is it. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Our love can keep a plant alive for one day and that’s as much love as we have. That’s one day. And that's as much love as we have. One day, we could keep a plant alive.

Stephanie Goss:  That’s pretty appropriate, how's it going? How's your day going?

Dr. Andy Roark: It's a good day. It's a good day. I got this. Sometimes good things just come out of the blue. Sometimes, you know, like somebody just shows up out of nowhere and its like, Hey, I'm gonna say something nice to you.

And that was me today. The people at instinct and instinct is a practice management software.

I will say the fine, folks at instinct. They put out a blog post on like the 24 Veterinary Podcasts That We're Listening To and it had all the big players on it. It had VetGirl and it had Dr. Dave Nichol and Blunt Dissection. And it had The Vet Viewfinder and like all of just all of the big, all of the big players.

And you're not going to believe who they put at number one. That's right.

Stephanie Goss:  Stop it.

Dr. Andy Roark: Big numero uno. It's you and me.

It's you and me. They gave, I know that it's just a blog of like the 24 that we're listening to today, but there's a list, on the internet, and we're at the top of it, and that means something, Stephanie Goss.

Stephanie Goss:  It means that we've had a wonderful day. That's what that means. 

Dr. Andy Roark: It does, it means in the one episode they listened to. 

Stephanie Goss:  I was gonna say it.

Dr. Andy Roark: We were on point. I remember when we started, I, we started from the bottom, now we're here, and by here, I mean, in your closet where you record.

Stephanie Goss:  We started with just, we just started with Patti. My mom was our one listener.

Dr. Andy Roark: I was going to say that's exactly where I was going in the beginning. It was you and me and one listener and it was Patty, your mom. And that's where we started. And now we're number one on the 24 veterinary Podcasts We're Listening to Today from Instinct.

Stephanie Goss:  Oh, that's too funny. Maybe Caleb was listening in preparation to come on the podcast.

Dr. Andy Roark: I don't know who, I don't know who's our friend, but clearly there was some nepotism.

Stephanie Goss:  All right. So we, we heart instinct today. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Exactly right. Fine. 

Stephanie Goss:  I love those. I love those guys there. I, you know, I think, I feel like it's been, quite a while, but in the very beginning, you and I, Talk to Caleb and you know, he's just got a brilliant mind and it was, it felt kind of out in left field at first when they were like, Hey, we're a practice management software and now we're doing all of these other things. But knowing Caleb and knowing how smart those guys are like, this is, it's been fun to watch them grow and evolve. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, yeah. But, well, hold on now. I just wanna say, Caleb is brilliant. And he's like the CEO, I think he's the CEO, right? He's not the one writing the 24 podcasts we're listening to blog, Goss. Like, just stop trying to like, take my joy and be like, yeah, your friend Caleb wrote it. It's like, I really don't think that this came from Caleb specifically.

I think that the fine, fine, FINE, people at Instinct listen to a lot of podcasts and they just went with their heart.

Stephanie Goss:  I will, let you, I will let you keep on thinking that. I will let you keep on thinking that.

Dr. Andy Roark: You're like that you're that person who can't take a compliment. You're like, yeah, sure. It was just our friends. 

Stephanie Goss:  You and I have been together, you and I have been together for seven and a half years now. It's this week. It was kind of the anniversary because this week was the anniversary of our very first Uncharted conference. And which is a big anniversary for me and you, like, I can't believe it's been that, that long.

And you know me very well. Have I ever been able to take a compliment? I'd certainly nowhere close to the way that you are able to take compliments.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, exactly. I was going to say, it's like we balance each other. Cause you're like, yeah, it was probably our friend Caleb. And I'm like, “WE. ARE. THE. BEST! I bet their whole company gets together and listens to our podcast. I know that there's no formal trophy, but I might just make one and put Uncharted Veterinary Podcast on it.

I'm putting it on my resume, which no one looks at or asks me for, but I have one somewhere and I'm gonna put it on there, and you're like, oh it doesn't matter. 

Stephanie Goss:  Oh God. 

Dr. Andy Roark: I could see us doing our Oscar speech where I'm like, I'd like to thank our director, and you're like, I think she did most of the work actually.

I'd like to thank the studio. They also could have used other people, but, you know, they, it probably was hard to hire in this economy. 

Stephanie Goss:  We're, it's fine. We're off the rails already and

Dr. Andy Roark: You need to hold the trophy, Goss. 

Stephanie Goss:  I'm, I am holding your make believe trophy that you just created. I am holding it. I am holding it high. You know, it's speaking of trophies, you and I were talking before we started this episode about how you know, when you play baseball, sometimes you win a trophy because you just smack the ball out of the park. And sometimes you get the same pitch that's hittable and you swing and miss, and maybe today's going to be a home run.

Dr. Andy Roark: Wow. That, look at that transition. That's why we're number one in the list. It's because we make transitions like that and now we're back on course.

Stephanie Goss:  Today's maybe going to be a home run this mailbag we got was great. So, we, because I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be a sassy episode with you and I. So, we got a we got an email from someone who said their opening was wonderful. It was “Help! I have a micromanaging manager.”

And you know, I'm sure that most people can't relate to that at all. I mean, nobody's ever been in that position where you've a micromanaging boss.

Dr. Andy Roark: That’s not a problem at Uncharted, I’ll tell you that. It's one of our many perks we have. We have the opposite problem where Andy is distracted by a shiny object and everyone else gets to have a day to themselves but we do not have the micromanaging problem.

Stephanie Goss:  Anyway, so it's somebody who is, who works in shelter medicine which shout out to us, we just were recording an episode yesterday, actually talking about shelter medicine in a completely different concept. And I've been thinking a lot about it since we did that episode and how much I appreciate you, you just brought something up about shelters, giving what they've got so that they continue to be able to be there for pets.

And I don't know, there's just something about that episode that stuck with me. And I've been thinking about shelters and I thought, Oh, look at this. it's another person who's working at a shelter. And I just got nothing but love. But they are the they're kind of the medicine side, the doctor side of the equation.

And they have someone who has come in as the operations director and they started as the adoptions coordinator and kind of have grown into this position. And so they're in a structure where they have two separate swim lanes. There's the medicine side of it, and then there's the operation side of it. And at the heart of this is a medical director who's struggling because they feel like the operations director is a micromanager. There's lots of watching over people's shoulders and telling them how to do their job. Little comments about, you know, I'm the boss or I'm in charge so I get to make the decision. And I really loved what they said, because they said it comes across like this person is on a power trip and I am making an attempt to assume good intent. And so I actually maybe see some of it as insecurity. However, the way that they're phrasing things, I think that they think maybe it's going to come across as funny, but it actually is coming across as quite threatening to the team because this person is in a position of power. And so they are struggling because they're not their direct boss. But there's starting to be some stepping on of toes when it comes to medicine. And so that's why this medical director is struggling because they're like, this is a person who's clearly on the business side of things, doesn't have the medical background, and they're starting to get involved in those medical decisions.

And so I feel really micromanaged. And they were like, please help me see this from potentially a different perspective because all I can see right now is red. And I'm finding this to be an incredibly toxic situation.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, boy there's a lot to unpack here so this is happening in a shelter. I don't think I'm gonna talk a lot about the shelter component of it today. I don't think I mean we could touch on a little bit, but basically this transcends shelter into general practice, and I think we can speak in, I think we can speak in broad terms, so if you're like, I'm not in a shelter, I would say, don't get hung up on that.

I think the way that we're going to look at this is pretty broadly applicable. So, yeah. Alright, let's do some headspace. You want to? You want to? Alright, here we go. All aboard. We're doing some headspace. I think that this person writing already put their finger right on the path to success, but I, it's really hard to pull it off.

Number one is this. Okay, so we're looking at this. Let me frame this up. Let me step back here for a second.

Stephanie Goss:  Okay.

Dr. Andy Roark: The medicine versus operations conflict is the defining conflict of 2024 in practices. True or false?

Stephanie Goss:  True.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, it's, I think 

Stephanie Goss:  A thousand percent. True.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, 

Stephanie Goss:  I feel like most of the mailbags have to do with that.

Dr. Andy Roark: It's blowing up.

It's really blowing up. And again, like I'm, here for it. Like I, this, I, this is a, it's a challenging issue, but I like it. It's very much in our wheelhouse. It is very much an interpersonal issue. 

But as we see corporatization in vet medicine growing and growing it, this is sort of a corporate structure: you have operations and then you have medicine, and the interface between those two things is innately it can innately be challenging, right? There, there's very high chances of friction there. And so we see a lot of that. So first, let me just go ahead and put that on the table and just say, this is why I said I think it goes beyond shelter.

The operations medicine friction is ubiquitous in our profession right now. And it's, new ish in that this is a lot of practices are transitioning to a corporate model. And so we're seeing a lot of this in the last couple of years. So anyway, that's number one. Number two is, I would say, I think this person laid down the key to the success, the path.

But the path is hard to walk sometimes. But to me, the first part of headspace is, you have to try to see the other person. Because, I tell you, you can immediately kiss this goodbye if you get mad, and you dehumanize the other person, you tell yourself stories about the other person being on a power trip, and wanting to be in control, and those are really easy stories to tell yourself, because you're feeling micromanaged, you're feeling this person is, like they are trying to take control of the office, and those are very easy stories to tell you, but once you start into that path of this person is the villain.

This just, it's so much harder to get out of that. Everything is a lot easier. if you can try to look at the person and see them in an empathetic way. Dr. Dave Nichols says he tries to see people as they were in the fifth grade. And so like they're 11 years old. And I do think that in these cases, if you can picture this person as an 11 year old bossing people around and joking about firing people, you can see the insecurity.

You see the person who's, you know, they're sort of, maybe they're power tripping, maybe they're just really terrified that people are not going to respect them. You know, maybe they feel like they're in over their head and they don't want anybody to know. There's a lot of empathetic stories we can tell ourselves, but first we have to get intentional and do that.

Stephanie Goss:  Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it's funny because they hit right where we normally start, you know, from the headspace perspective in terms of, can I have a SAFE conversation about this? Right. And they started with the, I'm trying to assume good intent. So they're covering that there.

And I think one of the questions. So it's interesting that you talked about, you know, the transition and the corporatization of practices. And I think that is true. And the other thing I think is true is that this is a net, this structure where there's an operation side of things and there is a medicine side of things, I think is the, next evolution naturally anyways. Because it was like our practices grew from the one doctor and maybe one support staff to multiple doctors. And at first it was, we had the CSR team, which was set apart from everybody else because their focus was on the clients and a little bit on the business side, but it was felt very different from the medicine. And I remember when I first started in vet med, a lot of the challenge and frustration and communication challenges came from the front versus the back, right? 

Because that was the first growth. That was the first growth path. And I think this is the next evolution of that, that front versus back has shifted as practices have gotten bigger and bigger.

And to your point, more practice, especially the bigger practices, Whether they're a private big practice or their corporate big practice, I don't think that really matters. I think the bigger you are, the more systems and processes you have to have in place to run things. And so I think that has led us to this place where there is a group that is trying to run the business side of things.

And there's a group that's trying to run the medicine side of things. And so I, I love how this writer is starting with assuming good intent. And to your point, it's really easy to make up stories in our head about the other person, particularly if we're not looking at them. From that plate, like Dave says, from Gary, am I looking at them like the little kid?

Am I looking at them from a place of empathy? I think one of the questions that I asked myself is what else could this mean? And this person was like, I think some of it is insecurity, which I think is a good step. And when I bring all of these things together in my head, I try and ask myself, what are they trying to say in their language?

Because one of the things that I think is true a lot of the times for me has been that the operation side of things and the medicine side of things. are truly trying to do the same thing. They're just going about it in two very different ways, or they're speaking two different languages, but they're saying the same thing.

And I don't know if you've ever been in an experience, Andy, as you're working on your Duolingo and learning another, language, but where you're standing there and you're trying to talk to someone in a different language than the language that they're using with you, you can be saying the same thing.

And it's still, you just have this confused, confuzzled look on your face. Because you don't, because you don't understand. And so one of the questions from a assuming good intent perspective that I would ask myself is, What could they be trying to accomplish? What could they be trying to do? What language are they speaking?

And what are they trying to say in that language that they're speaking? Because I find that for myself, in terms of the pre-work, it lets me kind of meander through those thoughts of, could there be insecurities? Could they be trying to, could they be getting instructions from somebody else that I'm not aware of? You know, like all of those other stories. Yes, I'm hallucinating that they are on a power trip and that they are being toxic and that they just don't know how to get out of their own way. Could I also hallucinate that other things could be happening here?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I think I want to tee up on a couple things you said so I completely agree I do think this is about bigger if your practice is big enough to have operations and medicine and have them not be the same person or people you're big enough to have this problem I think I still, I say that we're seeing the prevalence of this.

I still believe we are seeing increased prevalence in this because of corporatization because that is a standard corporate structure. I don't think we're getting a bunch of smaller practices that are independent that are getting bigger and that's what's making this a common problem but I think your point is well taken in that.

It could be any practice. Do you have a separation of operations in medicine? There's always going to be a little bit of that friction there. I think, I really like your front versus back analogy here. Because if you think about the underlying issues that drive the fronts not getting along with the back, they're very similar in my mind.

Which is basically we have mixed motives, meaning you have two groups that have slightly different motives and the information that each group has about the other group is fairly limited. Meaning, the people in the front get at the front desk don't know what's going on in the back. And their priority is not getting yelled at and getting people out of the waiting room.

Which is different than the people at the back whose idea is, they don't want to get overwhelmed. They don't care as much about people being in the waiting room. So that's, the motives are different but I think that translates over to the medicine people saying, this is the standard of care.

This is what the customer service talking to the client looks like. And the operations people saying, we're looking at the dashboard and our cost of goods sold is up higher than it should be. Our wait time is up higher than it should be, you know, whatever. They're just mixed motives. And it doesn't mean just like the front versus the back.

It doesn't mean that one is bad. Or one is good. It just means that they're both looking at very different challenges, and they have different motivators, and they don't entirely understand each other. And so I think that, I think that's a good way of sort of shaking that down. I want to step back, you know, back to the seeing the person, empathizing with the person.

You know, when, as I read this and sort of see the behaviors that are here, this has insecurity written all over it to me. This is somebody who's desperately trying to convince themselves and others that they should fill this job. And a lot of times, we tell people, fake it till you make it. And they're like, well I'm gonna fake it.

You need to get over there and do that thing. You need to make sure that this number is where it needs to be. And they're faking it. And it comes from a place of fear, not out of a place of being a, you know, a villainy. And so, there's that. The other thing is, and I thought about this before, this was actually a lesson I learned pretty fast as a business owner.

Cause I like to joke, as you might have heard. I do like to tell jokes, I do like to laugh. I have a hundred percent hurt people's feelings in my life from teasing too much. Like, that is a thing. It's, I don't, I hope I don't do it a lot, but there have been a hundred percent been times when I have had people that I care about and I will pick on them and tease them and I will pick on, I have made Stephanie Goss cry before maybe once, maybe.

Stephanie Goss:  Maybe more than once. It’s fine.

Dr. Andy Roark: Maybe once in a while, maybe more than once. And I will say something that I think is funny and I will hurt feelings. And I always feel terrible when I, you know what I mean? I go, Oh, I'm so like, I didn't, I was just, you know what I mean? I was just teasing. And again, I, that is a, but that's the thing that I have tried to learn about myself.

And it's been something I feel like I have toned down, hopefully as I've gotten older, I think it's part of my wisdom of getting older is, I don't maybe tease as pointedly as I used to, and I just, enough times of accidentally hurting people's feelings and saying, oh, I don't like this. But again, when I was younger and getting started, I would poke people until they cried sometimes, and I did not, mean to, I think anyone who knows me would not say that I'm a mean person.

You know or that I have an ill intent towards anyone. I don't, I just sometimes it's funny. And this is more about humor and it doesn't sound like that's what we're getting into but you know, it's funny. I was talking to Sarah Parsons who does what happens at a vet clinic on instagram and TikTok and but and I was talking to her about the Comedic videos that she makes and I like her stuff because it's positive.

She doesn't do client bashing she does goofy stuff about the types of dogs when you put them on a scale, and then they have like the, 

Stephanie Goss:  Yeah. I love her. I am not on TikTok

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, me neither actually. 

Stephanie Goss:  I wouldn't say that I'm on, I mean, I now have an account. I am a boomer. So I watch my TikTok as repeat reels on Instagram, like four weeks later, but I love Sarah's stuff. It always makes me laugh.

Dr. Andy Roark: So, but we were talking about that, and, sort of one of the things that we both agreed on, and this is something I found out early in my career as well, is I would say, early on when I was posting a lot of stuff on social media and people would ask me about it, I would say, the hardest part is not being funny, it's not being funny.

Meaning, it is more challenging to not say something that you think is funny Then it is to come up with something funny to say. You can come up with something funny to say if you don't care about hurting people's feelings. But it's much harder to say, Oh, I see humor in this situation. Oh, wait a second.

Stephanie Goss:  And I'm going to take a pause. 

Dr. Andy Roark: And I'm not going to say it because it might hurt this person's feelings, even though I wouldn't want it to. I'm just, I'm going to let this one pass and I think, for some of us, that's a hard thing. I think it's especially hard if you're seeking approval, if you're a bit insecure, if you're a bit immature, things like that.

And so anyway, I say that, to try to empathize a little bit with the person, especially being young. I think that we see these things on TV where the funny boss kind of jokes about, Oh, you're fired. Conan O'Brien is classic for this. And I think Conan O'Brien is really funny, but I don't know if you've ever seen videos of Conan O'Brien being mean to his staff.

They're hilarious. They're also not how you should behave towards your staff. And like, while it's funny, I think those people probably know what they're signing on for when they're signing on with Conan. And then also, I think probably when the cameras are rolling, it's probably a little bit more, but, I can see this being held up as sort of a funny thing that bosses do.

And I just, I think that's not, I think that's not real, but I don't know. I'm trying to be generous and say, I know how bosses can make jokes about, Ah, you, that's it. You're fired. I get it. I get it. It's a mistake.

Stephanie Goss:  You have toned that down as well. I have not been fired in quite a while.

Dr. Andy Roark: That's true. I mean, that's a conscious decision.

Stephanie Goss:  For the record.

Dr. Andy Roark: That is a conscious decision, too. I mean, again, I'm trying to be really honest and vulnerable here. You and I used to joke about, like, it's a, well, congratulations, Goss, you made it through another week. I still think that's funny. But it's only funny because I don't think there's any truth to it all.

It's only funny because I don't think there's any truth to it all.

But, I still quit, I quit doing that stuff just because, what happens, I think, sometimes you have to see somebody else do it and you go, Ooh, is that what that looks like from the outside?

Stephanie Goss:  That's what I was going to say on the flip side, because I think humor is a piece of this. And I think people can lean into using humor as a crutch or as a tool to, you know, to try and if, especially if they're insecure. Right?

And on, on the other side of this, what I was going to say is going back to our, you know, seeing the person and looking at the insecurity and also assuming good intent, one of the things that I would have to ask is they were our writer was giving us some examples of kind of down leadership style presenting itself.

So like, I'm the boss, I'm in charge, stuff like that. And she said, you know, it comes across as I'm, as she's on a power trip, but I'm trying to assume good intent. So I'm seeing it as insecurity. 

The other thing that I would say could be valid is that for a lot of us stepping into a leadership role we only know what we have seen, and for a lot of people, a lot of companies are run in a very top down leadership structure and leadership style, and so it doesn't matter whether you take someone who is on the young end of the spectrum or someone who is old like myself, you get into a practice and it's okay. I only know what I've seen before. And if my boss was very much like I'm the boss, I'm the decision maker. 

This is what you're going to do and how you're going to do it. I am either going to emulate that style because it's what I know, or intentionally go the opposite direction of that style because it's what I know.

And I didn't, I didn't like it. I hated it. And so I think that asking yourself, assuming the good intent and trying to put yourself in this person's shoes and really see them, one of the questions I would ask is, this like, is this just the style that they've been exposed to? Because I can maybe not excuse the behavior. That's not what I'm saying, but I can maybe look at the behaviors through a different lens.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. I, yeah, I think you're, I think you're right. I think that it is really hard to lead a team and appear competent and confident and also to not lean into top down leadership. Like, think about that for a second. It is a, you really have to be quite good. I think it's fairly exceptional.

And like, I'm going to say here, if you're listening to this, and you work with somebody who is a leader or a manager and they are, they, are confident and you trust them and also they are very much a servant leader and kind of among the people being like, I don't know, what do you, how do you guys want to approach this problem?

You should go, you should write that person a thank you note. Yeah. I was gonna say, you should go, say thank you. because that is it is really hard. And again, I think, most of us as managers have, have been ping ponged around in there. You know, I think it's not a hard emotion to get your head around I think for most of us or at least a lot of us when we get scared we try to get control.

And that's I mean, I think that's a very common emotion if I'm afraid of what can I control and that my friends is probably the number one reason that we see micromanagers full stop. On the management side, I think that there's often a fear in trying to take control and that means Telling people what to do and looking over their shoulder and then on the medicine side It's the same. It's the same thing, you know, we'll say we have a lot of veterinarians who are perfectionist Well perfection is a manifestation of fear in a lot of in a lot of cases meaning people who are perfectionists are often practicing afraid and they just, they, don't want to not have control. 

They're really terrified that things will go wrong. And so they're practicing from a place of fear. And so when we start getting to action steps, we're going to have to do a couple of things. One of them, you know, we're going to need to look at this person with an empathetic lens. We're going to need to try to accept that they are a person.

They're just probably coming from a place of insecurity. And then when we start taking our action steps, we're going to wade into how do we address this insecurity and support those people. But just, trying to be fair to the manager here. It is. It is hard. It is. I think it's really hard to do that.

So anyway, I think that's probably my headspace is if we can look at the manager this way and see them as a person. I, again, it's not about getting upset. It's not about it's not about telling ourselves stories about them wanting power, things like that. It's recognizing that the operations medicine conversations are challenging.

And we'll deal in, we'll, wade into that a little bit when we get into the action steps as well. But but just try to have an open heart and an open mind. And then we're gonna start moving through some steps and we're gonna see how this goes.

Stephanie Goss:  Yeah, I think the last thing for me from a headspace perspective is, and I'm not even sure it's headspace, but more like pre action steps is, I think you have to take a look at what the structure actually is. And so, you know, this person said, okay, I'm not their boss. And so part of it is, what is the system in which you are working to know what resources you have available to you to help as you move forward and also like set really clear expectations when you're having the conversation with this partner, with this person as your kind of partner in running the business, because even if they're in charge of the operation side of it, you're driving the medicine, you still have to work together.

You're still partners in a way. And so I think part of it is stepping back and looking at what is the chain of command? What is the hierarchy structure? Like, how, what does that actually look like? And because one of the questions I would ask myself is, are they getting instruction or are they getting information that may be different or may not be information that you're getting. And I think that when we don't take a step back and look at that structures, it's really easy to tell ourselves that it's all coming from this person. And I would say, what if it's not. 

What if it is coming from part of the structure, the chain of command outside of this person. And so I think evaluating what, you know, in terms of the structure and then, you know, figuring out, okay, it doesn't have to stay this way. But what are our two roles supposed to look like at this point next to each other? Are we working in parallel or are we working, you know, or we, are we going against each other or is one of us trying to go up and the other is trying to go side to side?

Like, what does that actually look like from the job perspective? I think those thinking those things through before you attack it are the other two things for me.

Dr. Andy Roark: You gotta stop taking my action steps. Like, you're just, like, We're gonna get a message, we're gonna get a question in the mailbag that says, My co-host keeps taking my action steps and putting them into her headspace section, and then I don't get to talk about them.

Stephanie Goss:  Okay, well, then. Let's just take a break and we can talk about action steps. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Let’s just take a break. Well everybody's heard.. 

Stephanie Goss:  Forget every, forget everything that I just said, and let's take a break and we'll come back and talk about it again.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well it's not gonna be the same but okay.

Hey guys! I hope you were enjoying the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast. If you are, you might be interested in the other podcasts that I do. The Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast. It is very different. It is a different format. It's me interviewing guests from throughout veterinary medicine. 

I have medical experts and I talked to them about cases. I have industry experts and I talk to them about the industry and where things are going. I have mental health and wellness experts, and I talked to them about thriving in vet medicine and the challenges that we face and things like that. 

It is a great podcast. It's different from Uncharted in that it's not so much business, there's more whole medicine and you know how you know Coke, zero is like it tastes good, but it has no calories? It's kind of like the Uncharted Podcast but it has no Stephanie Goss and so that's a strike against it. But it's got other things going for it. I really think you should try it and check it out. Cone of Shame podcast comes out every week. Yeah. Try it out. You might just love it. All right. Let's get back into this episode.   

Dr. Andy Roark: Right, let's get back into this slightly stale first action step

Stephanie Goss:  Sorry, our pre action steps that I apparently jumped you're just ahead.

Dr. Andy Roark: I see you taking action steps and putting them in a headspace so that you get to talk About him before I can get there.. I see you 

Stephanie Goss:  Let's be real. Sometimes I have to steal the Andy show. It can't be the Andy show all the time.

Dr. Andy Roark: That's true. I think if anyone counted the number of words that was said, I think I've got a pretty good margin. I was gonna call it a margin of victory I'm like, I don't know if that's a victory Andy It's a margin of airtime that's your trophy. 

Stephanie Goss: That’s your trophy. Okay. Andy Roark, what would be our first action step?

Andy Roark: Well, you know, so honestly there's about four things That I would do all at once. Not like at the same time all at once. But there's a couple of there's groundwork that I would lay here right before I do anything with this person. And so let's lay some groundwork down. So, yeah, I would say before I do anything. Number one is we need to get some role clarity here.

Stephanie Goss:  Yep.

Dr. Andy Roark: Full stop. Like we need to get some role clarity here. And a lot of times what happens, people go, Hey, you're gonna run the medicine and I'll run the operations. And nobody really talks about what that looks 

Stephanie Goss:  Right. What does that actually mean? 

Dr. Andy Roark: What does that mean? And and, when medicine and operations do not come into alignment, what is our mechanism for resolving that issue?

For example, let's just say that there are strong feelings on the floor that we are at our maximum capacity for the number of patients that we can see in a day. And, operations believes that we need a 10 percent increase in the number of patients that we're seeing in order to achieve our required results.

Those two things are incompatible. If the team says we need to see less and operations says we need to see more, we, I'm, how do you, we, there has to be a mechanism for resolving this and it's funny medicine operation should be a yin and a yang. They should be. And if one dominates the other, that's probably bad and I mean, it could go either way. 

If you have a practice that doesn't give a crap about the running of the business and payroll and the finances, that's not good. That's not a good long term place to be. And the same thing, of course, is if the place only cares about hitting numbers and they don't care about the medicine they're delivering, that's also a bad thing.

Now, I don't see hospitals that are ever that polarized, but, and I do, I'll also say, In my experience, the scales don't tend to land in the middle and stay there. They tend to shift back and forth, like you'd expect in a relationship. Sometimes in my marriage, I am the guy who is doing more of the family stuff.

I am carrying more of the load, because my wife needs me to. And other times, I need my wife to carry the load, and she's going to carry it for a while. And If we've argued every time we did not believe that the workload in our life was exactly a 50-50 split, we would never stop arguing.

Instead, we talk, we communicate our needs, we keep going. And sometimes things shift to me, and sometimes they shift to her, but we go forward in good faith and communicate and know that we're going to keep trying to get the balance right, and we're not going to let either party, you know, breakdown under the load and but that is trust. And so I feel like our practice relationships sort of need to be that way, too.

So to your point, we've got to get some role clarity here. We have to figure out kind of our ways of working stuff with that. Now, I say that not as as a solving this issue, this should be done. I would say that entirely outside of any sort of a feedback conversation.

I just as we're working this, let's go ahead and figure out No reason, just kind of want to know, and let's just sort of talk about how we're working.

No complaints, but, how do you, how do we want to handle things like this? And start to gather information. No, number, two, which I said at the same time as I'm laying this groundwork, this part of it, just build the relationship with this person.

It is so much easier to give feedback to someone that you know and that you like and that likes you and feels cared about by you than it is by someone who is you don't know very well.

If you're going to have to keep working with this person, investing some time into knowing them, and I mean really knowing them, like what are their hobbies, what do they care about, what makes them laugh, what's their favorite place to have dinner, what does their spouse do. 

Stephanie Goss:  Why are they doing this job? Like, what do they love about this job? 

Dr. Andy Roark: Totally. And I think that dovetails into, sort of the, third part for me, which again, same time, what, are their values? What motivates them? What do they care about in this work? What's important to them at the shelter, at the clinic? And those are, again, if you walk in with a clipboard and start interviewing them, it's going to be weird.

It's going to take some time to sort of gather this information. But, you can do these things concurrently. And then the last thing I would say in this sort of pre-work part, go ahead and start with positive reinforcement. It's, a lot of times we're like, I'm going to go in there and we're going to have a hard conversation.

It's like, you know what makes a hard conversation easier? Having 10 easy conversations before it that make the other person feel good. And you've been putting up with this for a while. We don't have to fix the behavior today. Okay. Thanks. Go ahead and start laying down some positive reinforcement. And, when you do some positive reinforcement and the person's face lights up and they say, Thank you.

Thanks for saying that. You're gonna feel a strong desire to say, And, oh, no, you're gonna feel a strong desire to say, And, well, let me just Well, there's one other thing that I just want to mention too, don't 

Stephanie Goss:  Oh by the way. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, by the way, exactly, you're like, oh, I made them happy. Now's the time to drop the hammer. Exactly! Don't do the compliment sandwich. Everybody's looking for it. They all know it. Just give them a compliment and they'll be done. 

Stephanie Goss:  No compliment sandwiches, people. 

Dr. Andy Roark: It's funny. We've all seen those conversations where Somebody will give up just praise It'll say something really nice and the other person will light up and the first person says or thinks to themself This is my chance to ask for the thing that I want and then you ask him for something and you basically turn the beautiful Thing that you did into something toxic Just take the win and go away, and keep this up for a couple weeks, and then we'll come back.

And I'll also tell you, you can make a lot of change with positive reinforcement. Catch them doing something that's good, and tell them how much you enjoy it, or how much it means, or, the impact that it had. And and just start with that, and we can have a hard conversation, but it helps if we can lay some positive groundwork first.

Stephanie Goss:  And what I would say is if you are in a place in this person may or may not be. But if you're in a place where you're really starting to feel. struggle with that. And you are really struggling to see the good in someone else. This is a good place to phone a friend. So it doesn't have to be, it doesn't, it's ideal if they're the things like you said, Andy, that you're seeing yourself.

And if I've been there in that place where it's like, I can't, I'm really struggling to look at this person and see positive. What you can do is say, Ask others to help you catch them being good. So can you do something that even the families that are adopting from the shelter that are interacting with her as the adoption coordinator or the rest of the team at the shelter, can you say like, Hey guys, let's catch each other doing something good and use that to help deliver some of that. It can soften it for yourself if you're having strong feels here. So just remember it doesn't, if you can do it great, and if you truly are in that place where you're like, can't look at this person and assume the positive, sometimes you need to phone a friend.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that's the groundwork for me to start getting towards having this conversation. It's just, those are simple things, kind of run in the background. They take a little bit of time. Go ahead and get them started. And then, while we're doing this, now we're going to start moving into actually, like, addressing the behaviors and things.

The first thing I would try to do, is I would do some root cause analysis to try to minimize the amount of feedback. Now, when we have somebody that is just like, this person's a micromanager, they micromanaged me here, and they micromanaged me here, and they made this bad joke here, and they did this thing here, and like, people are open to some feedback, but they quickly get overloaded.

Stephanie Goss:  Not a laundry list. 

Dr. Andy Roark: If you laundry list people with feedback, it does not go well. Their feelings get hurt, they feel just pounded on, picked on. They will find one piece of the list that you gave, that they think was misrepresented or not fair, and then they will grab onto that piece, and they will fight with you about it.

And it's because their feelings are hurt. And again, the other nine things, they won't dispute, but they will grab one thing and they will fight and they will feel wronged and mistreated. And so, just, don't, so when I say root cause analysis, what am I talking about? The idea is if let's say that, I, let's say that I let's say that I joked about firing Stephanie Goss and I hurt her feelings.

And then I joked about employees sleeping in and I hurt Stephanie Goss feelings. And then I found something else, and I hurt something else's feelings.

Stephanie Goss:  Listen, Andy Roark, I was up at 4 a. m. Don't tell me that I sleep in.

Dr. Andy Roark: No, I know, I, none of these things are true, but I'm just trying to think of 

Stephanie Goss:  I'm like, I'm doing what I would do right? Like, if you give me a laundry list, I'm going to find one thing that I can just attack because I'm feeling attacked. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, totally. But I think where I'm going is, a lot of times we have these behaviors. The truth is, it doesn't of good to give me a feedback and say you hurt Stephanie's feelings when you joked about this You heard him when you joked about this you heard him when you did this other thing The truth is andy the one piece of feedback is andy I think that you're struggling to communicate instead with stephanie in a way that is I don't think your intent is coming across to her in your communications meaning I think you're trying to bond with her, and she's, and her feelings are being hurt because that's not how she communicates or how she's used to communicating.

And that's one piece of feedback, as opposed to, you hurt her feelings here, and here. And so when I say root cause analysis, that's what I'm talking about. It's taking the individual things, recognizing what is the underlying problem, and then giving feedback on that one problem.

I think that's a, I think that's, what we're trying to get to.

And in this case, there may be more than one problem. That's okay. But we want to minimize. The number of things we're requesting. And so if we want to talk about micromanaging, let's just talk about micromanaging. And then also I would not use the term micromanaging because people really hate to be told they're micromanaging.

Stephanie Goss:  Well, and I think that they our writer gave us a really good example for root cause analysis in terms of their letter, because there was an example where they got a new autoclave in the clinic and the medical director Put it near where their sink area is. And it sounds like this person was frustrated by that and made some comments about, you know, well, you sure you're making a bunch of decisions, unilateral decisions, or you're making decisions for the rest of us kind of commentary. 

That's actually a really good example of a thing that you could do really. Good root cause analysis on because is this person really mad that the autoclave is next to the sink? Or are they mad because they feel somehow left out of the decision making process? Looking at that, from the outside, being stepped back from it. If I'm at 30,000 feet and I'm looking down, this is a really easy one. 

They probably don't give two craps about where the autoclave goes. They're mad about something else. And so this is where you have to do that root cause analysis to figure out, are they upset that they're left out of the conversation?

What happened here that is causing them to have that kind of picking attitude? And this is where the. You know, the tool in our toolbox of what happened really comes in handy because it's really, it can be really easy to just say, Hey, I heard you. And it sounds to me like you've got some feelings about not making decisions together. Can you tell me more? Like what happened? And just stop and then listen

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's really good. That is a great example of the root cause analysis I'm talking about. I would use the autoclave as the example, but then I would talk about how we're making decisions and the balance of I don't want you to feel excluded and also I don't want us to have a staff meeting every time… 

Stephanie Goss:  to decide where the autoclave goes. 

Dr. Andy Roark: we're going to put the autoclave and plug it in.

And, you know, how do you, how involved in these conversations do you want to have, to be knowing that we're both trying, we both have a lot on our plate and we're trying to get things done, how do we navigate this? And that takes us into this beautiful conversation. So just real quick right here.

Let's take that example and sort of run with it. Good root cause analysis. I would use the autoclave as the example, but we need to talk about how we make decisions and how this person feels included without making everybody else feel powerless and without making it so that decisions take time and something like the medical workflow is requiring her sign off. 

Let's figure this out and we're gonna have to use our hard conversation skills because she might Expect more control than she's going to have and we can talk about that, but it doesn't have to become an emotional conversation.

It can be something to work through. Remember your safe conversations, right? So we talk about safe conversations a lot. Can you sit next to this person and smile at them? If not, this is not the time to have the conversation. Go home. 

The autoclave can be plugged in tomorrow. Or, it can be moved tomorrow, but going right now when you're triggered and having the conversation is a bad idea.

So that's S. A is assume good intent. We've been talking about that. We've been doing that. F, has this person been set up to fail? What here is my fault? Maybe she doesn't realize that. I perceive this as being in my wheelhouse, or she's been upset to fail because we haven't talked about how we're going to make decisions like this before.

And if I can get into that head space, it helps. And the last thing is End result, which is what is the outcome that we want to have in this conversation. So we're not just venting, we're actually trying to go somewhere. And in this case, I would say. Can we talk about how we're going to make decisions like this?

Cause I would like us to, not step on each other's toes and also to be able to work autonomously and make decisions in an, in effect, in an efficient way. And so that's it. Remember your SBI format for giving feedback, right? Situation. Hey, when I set this autoclave up, you came and you moved it and you said this thing.

Right. So that's the situation. The behavior is B that's you said this. So when we set up the autoclave, you came and you said that too many decisions were getting made without your input.

Stephanie Goss:  Right.

Dr. Andy Roark: This is the impact that it has on me. That made me feel like I don't have any power to make decisions or made me feel frustrated because I feel like this is a fairly straightforward thing, and I'm also feeling like you're, might be feeling resentment about me trying to get things done. And I don't know if that's true, but that's how I'm feeling and I was wondering if we could talk about it. So SBI, what's the situation?

What's the behavior of the person? What is the impact that behavior is having? And then can we talk about it? So I think that's a big part for me. Remember that you can stage the conversation. I think a lot of times people are like, we've done everything that Andy and Stephanie talked about.

This is it. It's our one shot. It's like Eminem with his mom's spaghetti on his sweatshirt. Only get one chance. Don't miss your opportunity. I can keep going. Anyway I'm not going to um, lose yourself, the team meeting. 

Stephanie Goss:  we just have a, that's a whole, this is a whole other Uncharted podcast rap battle. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Do you ever plug in autoplay and have the manager come and tell you, do you have to move it? Tun tun tun (singing) this needs to stop. This needs to stop. Okay. You 

Stephanie Goss: Where were we? Stage the conversation.  

Dr. Andy Roark: You can a hundred percent stage this conversation. And you can talk to the person and then you can listen to them and then you can say I hear you. Let me process this because it's not how I was looking.

This is not. This is very different from how I was perceiving the situation. And so let me think on this And then I and then maybe we can talk some more about it but I just I hear you I need to think on this and you can do that and you can go home and you can meditate on this you do not have to shoot it out right here and right now. Go, you can get into a safe headspace and come back.

A lot of times, you get that download and it, you might get triggered at that moment. You can bail on the conversation. It doesn't mean you're giving up your position. It doesn't mean that you're yielding and you're going to go forward and do what this person says. You can say, I need, all right, I need to 

Stephanie Goss:  I'm gonna think about this. Yep. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Be clear about what you need. And then. After you've talked through it, after you've talked to the person, you've heard what they say, you've gone back and forth, you need to, at that point, figure out where you're at, figure out if this situation is going to be sustainable, figure out if you, if there's a way, if you need to go up to the chain, can you go up the chain?

If you go up the chain, does it go anywhere? If it doesn't go anywhere, then ultimately you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna pick your poison. You're either gonna stay here and continue to work with this person, and they're not gonna flip a switch and be perfect in one day. Just know that. It's gonna be, it's gonna take time.

We're gonna work with them about what it takes to make them comfortable and at some point if it might not work this may really suck. I will tell you it's funny. One of my things is that I haven't written this anywhere, but I keep looking for an opportunity to write about it. I think it's funny that people talk about independent practices and corporate practices as if they're two fairly homogeneous groups, and they are absolutely not.

And people are like, what do I need to know about going into corporate practice? And the truth is, here's the thing about going into corporate practice, nothing will matter as much as direct boss.

Stephanie Goss:  Yes. 

Dr. Andy Roark: The person who manages you. Will have probably the biggest impact on your day to day life of anything.

And so when people like this, this mega corporation is better than that mega corporation is like, that's ridiculous. You can get a great manager and end up in a nice little practice. And you can have a wonderful experience in any corporate group.

Stephanie Goss:  Mmm -hmm. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Corporate group, or you could be in the best corporate group in the world and have a big, Bad manager that makes you not want to be there and really poisons the whole thing for you And again, and the same thing is true in independent practices. I think that people don't

Stephanie Goss:  Yep. That was, I was going to say, spoiler alert, the same thing happens in private practice, right? You can have a manager or you can have a practice owner who can make your life miserable, or they can make it the best experience under the sun. And so you and I are absolutely on the same page in that respect, like that piece of the conversation.

It always gets me when that's this perspective, because it is so narrow and it really is so much the same.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, so that's sort of it. Ultimately. We're going to pick our poison. It's not about it's funny people say well It's xyz animal corporation. You go. No, it's not. It was Dale. It was Dale the practice manager at your one little branch who made you miserable and upper management or the people above Dale didn't fix it or they weren't able to fix it and that turned out to not be an opportunity that was going to work for you.

It doesn't mean, it doesn't mean that's a bad hospital group. It just means that was not a good job for you. It might've mean that you have a bad, direct boss. It happens.

Stephanie Goss:  Yeah. And 

Dr. Andy Roark: If only, Stephanie, if only there was some sort of training that people could have for leading or managing other people. If only there was a certificate that gives people everything they need to lead and manage other people. 

Stephanie Goss:  only you could pick Andy And Stephanie's brain about the tools that you need to lead.

Dr. Andy Roark: That would be crazy. You would have to have something like an Uncharted membership type thing that gave you free access to the Leadership Essentials Certificate, which is a 500 value that you get for free if you become an Uncharted member. Like, something like that would have to exist.

Stephanie Goss:  Yes, I don't know what that could be.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh well. 

Stephanie Goss:  What could it be?

Dr. Andy Roark: I don't know, me neither.

Stephanie Goss:  I think this was a great episode. What do you think, Andy? 

Dr. Andy Roark: This is gonna write this up as the second highest achievement of my day. Right after being number one on the 24 podcasts we're listening to from Instinct that I saw earlier today. Which in all seriousness, thank you to them. That was so kind.

Stephanie Goss:  Did we miss on this ball? Did we hit it out of the park?

I'm curious.

Dr. Andy Roark: I don't know. I never 

Stephanie Goss:  I mean, you always think we hit it out of the park, so I'm super curious to hear what our listeners think after this week's after this week's episode We'll, 

Dr. Andy Roark: I’m going to forward it to my parents. Like I always do and say, look, dad, look, mom, many of their podcasts. And I will seek their approval.

Stephanie Goss:  We'll wait for Patty's review. The OG, listener, the OG fan. Have a fantastic week, everybody.

Dr. Andy Roark: Thanks everybody. Take care.

Stephanie Goss: Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message.You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can. Email us at podcast at uncharted vet. com. Take care everybody and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.