How do we balance supporting the team’s well-being with the demands of running a successful veterinary practice? This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss navigate these choppy waters, helping listeners find the perfect balance between personal and business needs. They dive into the importance of using varied measuring sticks for success and how to recognize and accommodate different life phases and priorities. Stephanie and Andy provide a treasure trove of actionable steps to help veterinarians chart a course towards a realistic work-life balance. Let's get into this episode…
You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.
Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.
Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
Upcoming Events
🌟 Set Sail for Leadership Success!
Ready to chart a course towards exceptional leadership? The Uncharted Leadership Essentials Certificate is your compass for creating a thriving workplace culture, improving patient care, and guiding your team to success. This all-new program provides 8 hours of on-demand CE, focusing on seven key areas that will help you steer your veterinary practice with confidence and skill. Perfect for leaders at any stage, this certificate equips you to helm high-performing, collaborative teams. Embark on your leadership journey today at https://unchartedvet.com/certificates/.
🌟 Get Your Team Talking with Superheroes ASSEMBLE!
Looking for a fun way to boost team communication? Sign up for our newsletter and download Superheroes ASSEMBLE! This exciting game and training tool, designed by the Uncharted Veterinary Conference team, is now available for FREE. Improve team cohesion and communication by leveling the playing field and helping your team members recognize their own strengths and those of their colleagues. With built-in examples and all the materials you need, this game turns practice challenges into educational and entertaining discussions. Don’t miss out—assemble your superhero team today: https://unchartedvet.com/superheroes-assemble-signup/
All Links: linktr.ee/UnchartedVet
Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to discuss on the podcast? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
Upcoming events: unchartedvet.com/upcoming-events/
Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss: Hey, everybody, I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast and this week on the podcast, Andy and I are diving into the mailbag. We got a letter in response to a prior podcast that we had done about well being on the team. And this writer is wondering, Hey, I really liked some of the advice you and Andy gave, and I'm struggling to put that into practice in my practice because I feel like everybody has a different definition of wellbeing and I still have to run the business. And I'm wondering how those two things exist in the same time and space. We know that that's hard. In fact Andy and I both talk about some of our own experiences with this, including some things that we currently are, challenged by on our Uncharted team, because I think it's always a challenge to balance the needs of human beings and let them show up as human beings and let ourselves show up as human beings as leaders and still run a business. And as I say, a lot of the time, the truth and the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle. Let's get into this.
Dr. Andy Roark: And we are It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only Stephanie, I don't know the keys to success, but the to failure is trying to make everyone happy, Goss.
Stephanie Goss: : What song is that from, Andy Roark?
Dr. Andy Roark: That's not from a song. That's a quote that I really like that we're going to talk about today. Yeah, that's what that is.
Stephanie Goss: : All right. All right. How's it going? How's it going, friend? Stir it's stir crazy.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's been raining all day here. it's the end of the day as we're recording this, and it's rained all day, and my bad golden doodle Skipper is just pacing like a boxer trying to get into the ring, you know what I mean? Like he is just, like he's, you know. He can't take it much more, he's walking, he's, he's look, he is, we call it trolling. He is trolling, which means he is just like something in here I can mess up, something in here that I could conceivably eat, like, not devour, just chew to pieces and spit back out, and like, I see him, and I'm like, look buddy, I'm sorry, like, I know it's, like, it's raining out, it's been raining all day, and I need you to hold it together. I am sorry. I need you to hold it together. And he's like you just go make your podcast funny, man.
Stephanie Goss: : He needs a– he needs a raincoat and rain boots.
Dr. Andy Roark: Thank God, I thought you're gonna say he needs a friend like he does not need a friend.
Stephanie Goss: : No.
Dr. Andy Roark: Like we've got my wife and I play two on one defense against him and we're losing and like we– He does not need a friend.
Stephanie Goss: : No, especially because your kids, before you know it, the girls are going to be in college. And then it's literally just going to be you and Allie playing zone defense with that guy.
Dr. Andy Roark: I hope he'll be old enough by that time that we can take him, you know oh man, yes the kid like It's a brave, it's a brave new world. Now that Jacqueline's got, she's got she's got a car. Like, she got a,
Stephanie Goss: : I know. I was going to say, how's it going, how's it going since she got her car?
Dr. Andy Roark: It's, it's, it has been good.
Stephanie Goss: : Have you guys figured out how to park in the driveway?
Dr. Andy Roark: It’s good. It's
Stephanie Goss: : because that's a problem.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's okay, yeah, so, so what happened is we, I think we've, we have just fallen into the system of everyone leaves their keys next to the door, and then we're
Stephanie Goss: : play musical
Dr. Andy Roark: yep, and we're just, taking whatever car is, is not blocking other cars in, and like, it's, it is not a long term solution, but it's holding up right now.
Boy, last weekend hit Allison, my wife hard, because that was the weekend that Jacqueline was basically like, alright! See you on Sunday night and like she was like she she had a full schedule It's all it's all great great wholesome stuff like she went She went to the roller skating rink with her friends and she had a project to work on at school and there was a local comic con and she went to it in her cosplay because she's a theater kid like But she was like she would pop in for 20 minutes get a snack, wave and then she was gone again and like It was, I was talking to Allie and Allie was like, This was, this weekend was hard.
And I, I, I didn't, I didn't notice. I was, I was busy doing other stuff. Oh, that's great. But,I think, well I think that I, Because I had been the person who Rode with her while she got her driver's permit and stuff. I think I was much more aware of this coming than Allie was. And like, this, Anyway, it really hit her this weekend. And so it's, it's, It's weird, you know, faces of life are a real thing, you know, where you're like and again, I, I, I went and visited with my, my brother, and so he has two kids, they're two, and this kid is very two, and six, and that is not 16 and 13, like, you know, I, I
Stephanie Goss: : totally different face.
Dr. Andy Roark: But I can say to him because he's exhausted.
He's just exhausted like he doesn't get to sleep through the night his two year old gets up every night multiple times and does stuff and it's like And i'm like, I know this seems terrible I promise you That this will fade into the rear view very soon and like you will not Your life will not continue to be like this. You just have to hold on and you know and now and now i'm in this place where I don't see my oldest daughter for the weekend And so anyway, it's It's, it's fascinating how life is. The only constant is change. But yeah. yeah. How about you?
Stephanie Goss: : True story. True story. Things are, things are good. We've got lots of, lots of change happening. The kids are, the kids are you know, getting, getting all into spring sports and things are, things are crazy busy and they're really excited about their dad, and is moving to a new place. And so they're really excited about new rooms.
And like my daughter is, she can't drive yet, but she is like chomping at the bit. And so she's like, I've got a shopping list and I want to go to Ikea. I want to, I, want to do, I have my paycheck and I'm ready to spend it.
Dr. Andy Roark: It’s a hole in her pocket.
Stephanie Goss: : it is, it is,
Dr. Andy Roark: That you're recording from a different closet than usual today.
Stephanie Goss: : it's my regular closet.
Dr. Andy Roark: Is it? Did you decorate?
Stephanie Goss: : my well, no, but what you're noticing, and too bad everybody can't see us today because it's not 6am, so I look like I just got out of bed, but it's afternoon. But I redid everything in rainbow order this weekend with all of my books to Boots. I had some, I had some excess anxious energy this weekend and I, you know, and it's springtime finally here.
So I've got fresh cut flowers from my cut flower garden. And you know, it's coming together, the Clophis. It's been a, it's been a project
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: : together. It's coming together. Anyways
Dr. Andy Roark: it looks like, it looks like, it's 66% office and 33% hanging clothes. Like that's what it looks like.
Stephanie Goss: : Pretty, pretty much. There's some sound dampening thanks to the, thanks to the clothes and the rest of it is, the rest of it is office. Okay. I'm really excited about today because we have got a mailbag we have got a mailbag that has been Hanging out and I've been waiting for the right time and the right like way to talk about this.
So I'm excited. I'm excited for this one. we had gotten a message. We had done a podcast about gosh, I'll have to find the episode cause it's been quite a while. And we had done an episode about kind of the wellbeing of the team. And someone had sent us a podcast and said, you know, I listened to this one and I really liked some of the suggestions that you and Andy had. And I also would love to hear like more about. The idea of well being, and it feels like that looks radically different for different people. And this is a person who's in a position of leadership in their practice. They were like, how do we balance supporting the team and supporting the idea of well being and everyone taking care of themselves and taking care of their personal needs?
How do we balance that with the business? And in particular, like how do we help our team and our associate doctors and everyone understands that they can't be all things to all people. Because in that episode, you and I had talked a lot about the idea of we can't be all things to all people and we have to at some point have boundaries.
And so they were just like, I hear that. And I, and I want to, I want to apply that in my practice. And what I'm finding is that the concepts of well being seem to be really different from person to person. And for some people and I had some follow up conversation with this person who sent in the mailbag and it was interesting because they said something about, for some people, like their definition of well being is very like in their mind, this is what it looks like.
And they were like, their definition was radically different than mine. And so I'm struggling with how do I balance all of these things? Because I really do care about these people and I want to invest in them and I want them to be happy and healthy and whole to continue to work for me. And also because I care about them. And also I have to run a business.
And at the end of the day, to do that thing, I, and to take care of our patients and to take care of our clients, I need everybody to be at work when they're scheduled. And I need everybody, you know, like I can't constantly have somebody on vacation. And so they were just like, how do I, how do I do this?
And it was one of those ones where it feels kind of a little bit vague in the sense that it's not. It's a big, it's a lot, it's a big thing to try and unpack, but I thought, how fun, how fun would this be? And so I've kind of been thinking about the right time and place for us to do this, and I feel like it's a good, I feel like it's a good time.
Dr. Andy Roark: I yeah, I it is vague in a way, but also I totally get it and
Stephanie Goss: : I know.
Dr. Andy Roark: Step step into my dojo this is I know exactly how this feels because you've got
Stephanie Goss: : into real life.
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, and it's like You've got people and you're like I want you guys to I want I want you to enjoy coming to work And I don't want I don't want you to burn out and things like that and also We have got to make payroll and pay the bills And I don't want to talk to you about money because I know that that turns people off and they don't want to hear about dollars but at the same time, we really, like, have I mentioned payroll?
Stephanie Goss: : Right. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark: Those, like, those are, those are real. And so that balance is real. And so I, I have thought, I have thought a lot about this. And sort of to balance these things that I am happy to share. I'm happy to share sort of my perspective on this and kind of, kind of how I try to set it up at Uncharted and, and, and, and, and what I see in the vet world and kind of how I try to bridge those things.
And then also sort of how we train leaders, because again, anything about training leaders or medical directors, practice managers, whatever, we don't want to come off as callous. Like I don't care about your wellness. I don't care about your happiness. That's not true. And also we have all seen individuals that push the boundaries and say, well, I didn't feel like coming to work today.
And you go, okay, well, that's not, there's repercussions for that. Like the rest of the team, the rest of the team is penalized when, when you
Take a, you know, unscheduled vacation day like that. So we should bounce that anyway Let's let's get into let's start at headspace.
Stephanie Goss: : All right Let's do it.
Dr. Andy Roark: I want to–I want to go ahead and touch on something that you said right up front because I think you're right I think Going into this and starting to have this conversation Everyone has their own journey for well being the things that make some people happy are not going to make other people happy. I wrote passionately recently about a big pile of mulch in my driveway that I was going to spread. I said looking at my steaming pile of mulch, I'm pretty sure that's why poetry was created. Like it's, I really love.
Stephanie Goss: : That's your happy place.
Dr. Andy Roark: It is. I like to be in my garden. I like to push a wheelbarrow around. I like to mow my grass. I like to pull weeds. I like to get out there and just be there. My happy place is honestly talking to someone on the phone or doing a consultation or something like that while I'm pulling weeds. I, I love it. And that is not Stephanie Goss happy place. If I was like, Goss, come here. We're gonna work on yourwellness.
Stephanie Goss: : Absolutely not.
Dr. Andy Roark: Get the shovel. you know, it's not, it's not the same. but I think that's just really important is, you know, what works for you as far as wellness. It won't work for everybody. And so this can't be a one size fits all solution. We have to approach This sort of balance with a bit of a hands off nature like we need to to set people up for success But but how they actually get there what they do that that's kind of got to be their business And so I I think that that I think that puts our writer in a good headspace, but then also I think if you're someone who is like, I found the key to wellness, I just know that the frustration you're going to have is people are gonna be like, well, that doesn't work for me.
And that's a, that's okay. Unfortunately, everybody kind of has to figure out their own journey. And I really mean that when we're talking here about our associate veterinarians and how do we get them to understand X, Y, or Z. Thank you. They're going to have to do their own journey and we can show them some things, but they're going to have to kind of go through those doors themselves.
At the same time, we can frame up how our business works and how they're supported in a way that we can feel good about.
Stephanie Goss: : I agree with that.
Dr. Andy Roark: When we start, talking, especially about sort of associate veterinarians, and that's kind of where I zoomed in on in this question of, you know, how do we get them to sort of balance wellness and making the business run? One of the biggest problems for veterinarians, Veterinarians that I see is what I call the, what got you here won't get you there problem.
And the idea is, I've talked about this on the podcast a number of times before, but, but basically we as doctors and a lot of us in, in support staff technicians, especially licensed technicians, things like that, we were raised on external validation. We were raised getting pats on the head and taking tests and getting grades and people telling us that we were good or that we were good enough or that we were exceptional. And the people who excelled in college and went to vet school and got into vet school and then excelled through vet school, those are, those are people who, they like those pats on the head and they like those, those grades. And that whole system, That we were trained on, that we were raised on, that we were grown on, it breaks down in the real world immediately.
Stephanie Goss: : Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Andy Roark: I, I think that we've got a real failure of, I call it failure of graduation. I talk a lot about graduations because I think they're important. Graduations are not, in my mind, they're, they shouldn't be symbolic. They should be real. And what that means is that graduation comes from, you know, it's, it's this sort of continuation of this idea of, of developmental rituals, right? Like when the, when the tribe would send the young men out into the wilderness with just a knife, and then they could come back, you know, a month later, and if they were alive, they could be in the tribe, something like that. Like that's a, that's a ritual. But when they came back from being gone for a month, They were treated like men. Like, they weren't treated like children anymore. Like, that was a, you went, you did the thing. And it goes back to what we talked about at the very beginning of the episode. The phases of life that we were
Stephanie Goss: : Right. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: But, if you don't, and I think this is a sort of a societal sort of issue. I think this is really interesting.
I think that we have removed the clear graduations between phases of life. I, you know, I, I became a parent when we went to the hospital and we came home with a baby. And then I, like, there was no, there was no question.
I was in it. You know what I mean? Like there was no question.
Um, that, that, that, that phase was rigid.
But when I went to vet school and I did the things and then I graduated and then I kind of went to a job. And then the job had this mentorship program, which was kind of like the clinics that I had been on previously. And if people call me a baby vet, then am I like, did I do the transition or am I still in this weird kind of vet school mentorship growth phase?
And I'm not trying to be critical of how we do this, but just hear kind of what I'm saying. One of the hardest changes for people to make is to really internalize the idea that vet school is over and you're not getting grades anymore. And I think people really struggle with that. They desperately want a grade. They want the owner of the practice to come and give them an A minus.
Stephanie Goss: : Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark: for, for their, you know, they want to be able to take a test and, and someone tells them objectively, you are an excellent veterinarian, here is the score. And some people, some everybody, some people really, like that's just, it's hard to break 21 consecutive years of education. That has worked that way and be like, now you're out and,
Stephanie Goss: : change it. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: and success is this weird mixture of extracting money from pet owners and getting care done in a way that is a good, as good for the patient, being a good advocate for the patient and working really hard and helping the team and getting out of the practice and being home with your family and recharging and being available when But not too available and like, it's all of these conflicting things and it's, it's not. Here's the test. How did you score that success?
Stephanie Goss: : Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think that totally, I think that totally wrecks people.
Stephanie Goss: : I, I would agree with that. And I think the thing, like, not having gone to, to vet school, but having gone through you know, you know, university and, and grad school, I, I could say the, the same. And I think the, I, I think you're right in the, I think there is a correlation to being a parent. Cause I remember, Like when I, when I was when I was pregnant, like I read all of the books and I was like, that's what I do when I don't know something about a thing.
Like I do the research and I'm just like reading all the books that I can get my hands on. And then I went to the hospital and then it's like, time for you to go home. And you're like, but wait, like, isn't. It, you're just going to let me leave withthis thing? Like, I don't know how to take, I don't know how to take care of it.
And I like, what do I do with it? And, and it's this feeling of unsettled it, for me, it was really this unsettled feeling of, I'm, I know that I have skills. And I also know that there are a lot of skills I don't have. And I think that that's a really, has been a really good descriptor for me in my own journey in veterinary medicine.
Like I remember the day that I sat at the front desk for the first time and I was, everybody went to lunch and it was just me. And I was like, I know lots of things. And also I know there's lots of things I don't know. And so, you know, how do I, how do I, can I do this? Can I, you know, and you, you, I was questioning myself, I think to your point at every phase along the way in my journey.
And so I think Wrapping your brain around that fact, I think is really, really helpful, no matter what your position in the hospital is that it's, there are phases to everything. And that graduation failure mentality, I guess, is like, you're still going to, even if you graduate, you're still going to go out and there's going to be lots of things you don't know.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I think that's, I think that's just kind of part, specifically for the associate vets. When we talk about wellness and staying at work versus leaving work, I, I, I think a lot of people are still trying to figure out how to measure themselves and without, without, a grading system, it's easy to feel like you're always failing.
Yeah. I think that that's, we've always had these measuring sticks. I wrote an article, I wrote an article on today's veterinary business and it was like a year ago, but it was called, it's called Measuring Sticks. And the basic point of the article was that we're all prone to selecting measurements for ourselves and then holding ourselves to these measurements. And a lot of the measurements are, are dumb, you know? And so, so, you know, I sort of pulled
Stephanie Goss: : Give me, give me an example.
Dr. Andy Roark: So like, I, I am a, I am the smartest person in the room. Full stop. I know more facts than everyone else does. And that's how I know. And that's how I know I'm valuable. That's how I know I'm a good doctor.
And I would say, believing that you're the smartest person in the room does not make you a good doctor.
Stephanie Goss: : Got it.
Dr. Andy Roark: The, you know what I mean? Yeah. So, so there's sort of this, the, the, the rulers, I think a lot of people, oh, so I'll give you another one. There's this idea that some people have that the number of degrees that I have translates to my worthiness as a professional, which means I did an internship and she did not do an internship. So I therefore can feel superior to that person. I did a residency. and that person did not do a residency. Well, I published multiple papers after finishing my residency and have a job at a vet school and you work in a specialty hospital.
So therefore, and I know that I'm not the only one who can squint their eyes and see this weird hierarchy, but it's, it's ridiculous. You know, I was just, I was just interviewing somebody for the Cone of Shame podcast and she was a technician that was doing this really cool stuff. And she said, well, you know, I like to lecture and stuff, but I always have a massive imposter syndrome because I'm not a VTS or a veterinary technician specialist.
And I just thought we're talking about marketing and social media for technicians and you're having imposter syndrome because you didn't go and get specialty training in technical medicine. Like that doesn't make any sense. But But they, but people grab onto that and I promise I'm, I'm talking about this for, for a reason.
And so, you know, I'll tell you the other ones that we see. So other measuring sticks is, there are some people who come out there and who were like, Oh, you're a veterinarian. What is your average client transaction? And how many pets did you see?
Stephanie Goss: : Right.
Dr. Andy Roark: I know people who look at their value as a vet or people tell them that that's their
Stephanie Goss: : Mm hmm. Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Andy Roark: And what's your average client transaction? And I'm like, I'm sorry. I reject that those two numbers alone are a reflection of how good a doctor you are. Like, I reject that. But other people don't reject that.
And, you know, and you can see people who go home and they feel terrible about themselves because they don't see as many pets Look, life is messy. And there is, I can promise you, there is no way to max out your stats, meaning there is no way that you see more pets than anybody, and work them up better than anybody, and make everybody happier than anybody, and spend more time with your family than anybody, and exercise more than anybody, and do your hobby more than anybody. Like you can't max out
Stephanie Goss: : Something's gotta give.
Dr. Andy Roark: Something's got to give. And so when we talk about our measurements and how we look at ourselves, that idea of you cannot max out all the stats. You have to be able to look at the mosaic of measurements and decide which ones you care about and which ones you don't.
And also know that they will always be somewhat in in conflict. And last headspace part here for me, I think, is remember the phases of life, which means when I Was when I was a brand new veterinarian with a baby at home, my sleep metric was way down. And my work metric, it was way up because I was a brand new veterinarian,
Stephanie Goss: : Right.
Dr. Andy Roark: that's not how I was gonna live my life.
And there's, there's nothing wrong with graduating from vet school and going through an internship and having your life quote unquote out of balance because you're working your butt off. Because that's what you're supposed to do for an internship because it's a one year thing. You're doing it. This is what your life is going to be like.
That's okay. It doesn't mean you're a failure because you're working really hard at this time. If that's how you plan to continue to live your life, we might need to reevaluate a little bit. But, but, but given where we are, there's metrics they can shift. And so I don't know. I hope I'm done a good job of kind of laying this down.
When we talk about balancing the business and the well being part, again, the big take home for Headspace for me is, everybody's journey is going to be different.
Stephanie Goss: : Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: We need to help veterinarians and ourselves remember, we have been raised with this high achieving culture. that says I'm supposed to get a number score that tells me how good I am.
And that's not how life actually works. And if people can't let go of that, if they can't get over the idea that my net promoter score from the clients doesn't actually dictate if I'm a good doctor or a good person or living a full life,
then they're always going to struggle. And the people that I think who are most Unhappy are the people who have held on to these weird rulers.
They put on themselves and they say I need to have a higher average client transaction. I need to see more patients. I need to get more C. E. I need to have more degrees. You know, I need to have a bigger clientele and also I want to have a family. I want to have hobbies. I want to have these other, you know, it's like you can't do all those things.
But the idea of having a test that you don't ace just bothers them. And so like that's a big part of Headspace, but we have got to, we've got to get loose from that and know that you're, you're, you're going to need to reset your priorities and that your priorities are going to change over time. And that's normal. That's what's supposed to happen.
Stephanie Goss: : Mm hmm. Yeah. I, I agree with that. And I think one of the things you know, talk a little bit about this when we get to action steps. But, you know, you talk, you started at the, at the place of everybody has. their own journey. And what's going to work for me is going to be potentially different than what's going to work for you and what's going to work for, you know, Tyler or Ron or anybody else on our team.
And I think it's the same in the clinic. Everybody's. When you think about the things that are part of life that make up our lives, our, our families, our work certainly as one piece of it, but it's one piece of it. And so when we think about all of those other things. School, family, finances, health, you know, all of those pieces play into that journey. And so I think we have to recognize that which is I think part of the powerlessness, the feeling of powerlessness as a leader is recognizing that everybody has their own journey. it's going to be different for everyone. And still you're in this place of, well, I still, I, I have to run the business. And so how do I balance that?
How do I take care of everybody? And so I think from a headspace perspective, you know, you, you, when you were, I was, I was giggling when you were talking about the imposter syndrome and I guess I was thinking to myself, that's not a conversation you and I have had, not at all you and I have had that exact conversation about, about me.
Like that is something that I have felt because I have you know, a lot of management and admin experience in a hospital.
And I don't have my CVPM. And it has been a big, it has been a big challenge for me. And there have been lots of ups and downs in that journey. And I think what finally clicks for me is recognizing that it is a journey.
And so the idea of I can't do all the things. And I was really, really hard on myself because I was like, okay, this is, like, I know that I, I, I value, I value what the CVPM stands for. I want to do it. And I went back to school and cause I needed a couple more credits to be able to finish and I went back to school. Well, I chose to go back to school when I had a newborn and an 18 month old at home and I was managing the clinic full time. And so you can imagine how that, how that, how that went for my health and wellbeing when I'm up at two o'clock in the morning trying to do homework that is due that day because I'm going to have to go work in the clinic and I have a newborn that won't sleep. Like it was really, really hard. And at the end of the day, I had to recognize the fact that I can't do all of the things.
And so, yes, I want to become a CVPM and where I was in my journey at the time was I needed to be there for my kids and I needed to be there for my practice. Like those were, those were the two things that had to be the priorities at that point in time.
And it wasn't wrong. It wasn't, it wasn't bad. I wasn't choosing. I was temporarily choosing one over the other. But it wasn't because I believed in one any other than any other. It was that I had to recognize that I couldn't do all of the things at the same time.
And I think that's really important for everybody in the practice.
And from a practice leader perspective, the big piece of headspace, I think that you have to come around to is recognizing that You can't be all things to all people. And that means for your team. And it also means for your clients. And I think that it can be a really slippery slope for us as leaders where we look at, well, if I take care of the team, then I have to take care of the client.
I can't take care of the clients. And if all I do is take care of the clients, then I'm not taking care of the team. And I think so for me, the last Headspace piece, following up to your, to know your idea of we can't do all of the things for everybody. So we have to decide what success looks like for us on an individual level is that we have got to figure out, we have got to come to the place where we recognize that it doesn't have to be all one and not the other.
That it, you know, that those things are not mutually exclusive. I can do some things to take care of the team and I can have boundaries there and I can by having those boundaries, I can also do some things to take care of the clients because I think that their answer for a lot of us lies somewhere in the middle.
And the only way we get to that middle point is we've got to give a little on either side and we can give a lot on one side or a lot on the other, but like eventually we have to figure out how do we find that, that middle for ourselves.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I think you're I mean, I think I think we've laid out the concept of balance pretty well here. You know, it's just, we can't, we have to give up a little bit for the clients in order to take better care of the staff, you know what I mean?
And like, that sometimes taking care of our staff means that the clients can't just pile in the door today, and we'll see everybody who calls.
And that's, that's that balance. But you know, you just, we have to if you say, happy clients are the measuring stick that we use, and that's the only measuring stick that matters, then you're going to not allow your team to turn people away when they're overwhelmed, and you're going to suffer the consequences.
And if you say my staff's comfort is the only thing that matters, then you're going to turn away some people who are really in need, who maybe we could have fit in. And so the point in all of this is, you have to loosen your gaze and focus a little bit
and allow yourself to see multiple measuring sticks.
And, and that is a skill that we have not been taught growing up, I don't think. And that's, that is a real life is messy, this is what it means to be an actual doctor an actual grown up skill. So anyway, let's, let's take a break here and then we'll get back, come back and get into some action steps.
Stephanie Goss: : That sounds great.
Hey there, podcast listeners. I wanna take a second and talk to you about our leadership essential certificate. Now, some of you have heard, Andy and I talk about it on the podcast, but if you're new or if you haven't heard this before, I think it's really important, which is why I'm gonna share it with you now,
When our team sat down in the very beginning . We said, Hey, look, we really believe that there is a foundational truth here to build off of. And that is everybody that's a part of the Uncharted team, everybody that is a part of the uncharted community and finds us tends to believe that every single member of the practice has value and worth and deserves investment in.
That's number one. And number two is that everybody on the team is needed and needs to have some basic leadership, professional, personal development skills, and business development skills in order to help the practice and the team run as efficient, effective, and rockstar ish as they can. And so, um, our team sat down and said, what would that look like?
What would be some of those things that we would want every member of the team to have access to in terms of learnings? And after the last years of doing content for Uncharted, Andy and I pulled together the best of hits in terms of those foundational level content and workshop questions and discussion questions, and we put it together in one awesome, if I do say so myself, awesome, awesome package.
And that is our Leadership Essentials Certificate. And so if you were like, hey, this I would like my team to be maximally efficient. I would like them to be maximally effective. I would love them to learn how to be better communicators and how to work together as a team. We've got you. And if you're someone on a team listening to this right now, and you're like, Hey, I would like to do that.
We've got you to, there's the ability to take one module at a time. You can buy the whole certificate. You can take it online. You can take it in a hybrid version where you do some workshop in virtual cohorts, but you also asynchronously watch videos. You can even come and do the whole thing in two days live with our team.
And you can find out information about all of it at unchartedvet. com forward slash certificates, that certificate with an S at the end, because there's more where that came from. And now back to the podcast. Oh, but don't forget to go sign up. All right, so I got some action steps. I broke them up, first of all, by the, the doctor who could also be sort of the employee, but this is, this is if I'm not the manager, how do I kind of look, think of how do I try to balance my own professional life and my well being and things like
Dr. Andy Roark: that and then I've got a couple extra things for management who are trying to facilitate this for other people.
Sound
Stephanie Goss: : Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark: All right, cool. So the, the first thing. that I would put forward as an action step is we need to define success for ourselves as veterinarians, as associates by our, by our, values.
Stephanie Goss: : Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: If you don't talk to doctors about what does it mean to be successful, how will you know that you're successful?
What does a successful day look like for you? Then they will generally default to external measurements that are given to them, which means they will say, A client got mad at me. My average client transaction is fourth out of five doctors in the practice. I saw less. appointments than the other two doctors saw.
I am a terrible, craptastic, look at this, objectively, I am awful. And you go, None of that means that you're awful. The fact that a client got mad at you doesn't mean you're awful. Happens to everybody.
The fact, the fact, The fact, that you are the, you know, fourth out of five doctors as far as the number of clients you saw, maybe you just saw tougher cases this month where maybe other people, maybe like, maybe other people have been here longer and they have an established clientele of people who asked for them and so they're just getting served more cases.
Maybe you make people feel wonderful. But you need to work a little bit on your efficiency. It doesn't mean you're a terrible doctor, you know, like, so none of that, but if you don't talk to people, or we don't sit for ourselves and say, what are my metrics of success, then you will default to the metrics that other people give you.
And that's it. Going back to that article, the point too, is other people slap their rulers up against you all the time, and you can accept those rulers or you can ignore them. You know,
Stephanie Goss: : Yes. And I think, I think for a lot of people, I think that's probably why a lot of our team members or associates when they are struggling to find that balance, it's because there isn't the defined personal balance. And so, the rulers that are being used are, are defaults that other people have chosen, whether it's operational metrics, whether it's patient related metrics.
It's someone has pulled a number and it sometimes it feels like the number has been pulled out of thin air. But in the absence of something, someone's gonna pick something at some point. Right. And so part of it is driving the conversation so that you can help pick things that are important to you.
Dr. Andy Roark: it, it takes internal strength to set your own measurements. It really does. I want to pause here for a second. And it's like, it takes some guts to say to yourself, this is what I care about. And again, I encourage people to sit down with a piece of paper. And think about it and just sort of say, if you struggle with this and you're like, I don't, I don't know what he's talking about.
Here's what I'd say. I want you to sit down. I want you to think about all the other doctors you work with, all the support staff you work with. If you could clone any of these people and run a vet hospital, who would you clone?
And I want you to make a list. And then I want you to think to yourself, Why would you clone them?
What characteristics, behaviors, or traits do they have that make that the person that you want to clone? And guys, those characteristics, traits, and behaviors, those are your values. The reason you wrote them down is because you admire what they are and how they behave. And again, it's often times it's easier to see these things in yourself.
Than in other people and so you need to figure out what those are So for me one of my sort of my driving core value is hard work It's work ethic like I work. I work hard and I value work and i'm not saying it's good or bad It's just how I was raised. And so for me If you said are you good vet? I was like, I don't know but I work hard And if I get home at the end of the day, I don't ask myself.
Did I make everybody happy? I say did I work hard?
And then it's other values start to come in. Like, was I patient? Was I kind? Did I listen? Did I do my best? Did I learn something? And if the answers to those questions are yes, and man, I, I killed it, like I did it. And you could say, well, Andy, your average client transaction was low and the number of patients you saw was down.
I would throw that on the pile. I wouldn't ignore it, but I would throw it on the pile and say, well, I, I, I felt like I worked hard. I had good interactions with the staff. I learned some things today. My numbers were down. I'm giving myself a B for the day. We're gonna, we're gonna, we'll work on our numbers a little bit tomorrow, see if we can get those up.
And that's it. But if you only have your numbers, and that's your measurement your whole day, then you are unmoored and you're floating out there. So you have got to stabilize yourself by deciding what are the, what is the real internal. Measurement that I want to use. And so for me, that step one is figure out how to define your success.
Stephanie Goss: : Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark: Number two is remember, and this is just a, a, a, this is a huge deal for me on wellness and, and wellbeing. Remember that life is what we focus on
and you have power all through your day to decide what you're focused on. And our brains are not super complicated. You can only focus on one thing at a time.
And so my question to you is are you focusing on what you have or are you focusing on what you want?
Stephanie Goss: : Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark: Are you focusing on what was good and the good that you did today or are you focusing on on, on the bad or what or what was sad or what was hard or who was frustrated
because those are, those are your choices and I might say you should ignore or repress or block out anything, but, but your life is what you experienced.
Like, that's what it is. It's not what happens to you. It's what do you spend your time thinking about and what do you spend your time feeling? And you have great control. And so, are you focused on the present and what you're doing and the case that's right in front of you? Or are you focused on the case that left the building an hour ago?
Or are you focused on the case that's on the appointment schedule for this afternoon that looks like it's going to be a hot mess, however, 80 percent of the time, 80 percent of the time, those cases are not what we think they're going to be. And again, it is 100 percent up to you. This is not about being positive.
And I'll say that again. It ain't positivity. It's intentionality. What are you looking at? What are you focusing on? And then, when you go home, what are you focusing on there? Are you at home reliving your day at the vet clinic? Are you at home texting people pictures back and forth of a case that you could wait until tomorrow?
I, or are you at home making eye contact with your friends and family? Are you at home setting up fun plans for the weekend that you're going to actually go and do as opposed to wait until the weekend and go, I didn't have anything planned. I guess I'm going to sit here and watch Netflix by myself. Like,
Stephanie Goss: : Right.
Dr. Andy Roark: you know, shade on Netflix by yourself if that's what you want, but don't let it be because you just didn't.
Make an intentional choice about how you were going to be off. And so anyway, that's number two for me is, is remember that life is what you focus on. And that is a huge deal for wellness. I think, I think a lot of us are not intentional about what we focus on. And the things that other people ask us to focus on, Maybe you're not the things that we want to embody our life.
And the other things, the things that we are biased to think about, like negativity bias, just because those things pop into our head most readily, that doesn't mean that that's where we have to spend our mental time and our emotional time. And so get intentional about, about what you're focusing on and what you want your life to be like as far as the experiences that you choose to have.
Stephanie Goss: : Yeah. I like that a lot.
Dr. Andy Roark: All right. Number three for me is know that you can make adjustments in your life.
I think, I think, when people get really in a hard spot is they're like, my life is out of balance. I am working so hard. This is terrible.
And the truth is you can fix your life balance. You always have options. It, you can't fix it today.
And I think that that really bothers people. They're like, Oh, this, look, this is horrible. And next week's going to be just as horrible. And the week after that, and the week after that, I always tell people adjusting work life balance takes three months. And so, you know, if you're looking at, you know, you're in the summer and you're like, we're overwhelmed, go ahead and look at the calendar for September.
And, and block yourself off, put some days off on there, start thinking about what does your dream schedule look like? What would a, what would a healthy adjustment look like? And, and say, guys, I am here for this. Just so you guys know, in September, I'm not going to be able to do this thing on Monday nights.
My, my, my evenings are just too busy. And so I will be stepping off of the PTA. September and slap some vacation days on the clinic and then you got something to look forward to but a lot of people are Like I am trapped because the next four to six weeks are terrible It's like you can get through anything for four to six weeks.
You can Especially if you have all, I promise you putting those days on the calendar, blocking yourself off, making those, those, sending those emails that will make you feel better. But I think a lot of people feel like they are powerless. I, I, I tell a story, a lot of the Navy SEAL dropouts And so people heard me say this before one of my favorite stories is from This book called lone survivor and it's about this guy.
It's a true story It's this guy who's a navy seal, but he talks about going to to to navy seal training And he talks about how they do they have 10 weeks of training and the last week is called hell week And it is absolute hell on earth. It's horrible. But but but he But he was really surprised when he got there about how many people dropped out of the program on the first day of Hell Week.
And later on, he asked one of the instructors, he said, Why did I drop on the first day of Hell Week? Because in the nine weeks leading up to that week, we had had plenty of Hell Days that were just as hard as that. That day was not significantly harder than other days, but there was a huge number of people who dropped out.
Why? And the instructor said they didn't drop out because that day was hard. They dropped out because they knew there were six more days just like it and they didn't think they could get there and Often it is not about how hard we're working now. It's not about where we are now It is the belief that things are not going to get better or we have this insurmountable future ahead of us and so Just know that you can make changes.
It is not going to be your life. Don't get sucked up focusing on the future. Go ahead and start making the changes that you can make. Know that we're gonna, we, we might have to slog along for a little while, but this is not going to be our life. This is going to be a short term problem. And by short term, I mean a month or two, maybe three.
Maybe three months, but think back on the course of your life. Three months is not a long time. You can put one foot in front of the other for 12 weeks if you have to. And again, I'm not talking about being an abusive situation. I'm talking about boy, I'm really burned out and this is, this is tough. You don't, you don't have to, you don't have to be stuck there.
So there's just sort of my, my, those are sort of my three big things for trying to take care of your own wellness. Again, define what success looks like for you. Remember that life is what we focus on. Be intentional about what you do with your time and what you focus on. And then the last thing is note that you can make adjustments.
You are not trapped. You can, you can quit your job, you can quit your internship, you can quit it. And people go, Oh my God, that would be devastating to my reputation. No, it's freaking not. It's absolutely not. No one, like, no one will care. Go on, take care of yourself. You know, be a good vet. Take care of patients.
Stephanie Goss: : Yeah. You're still a veterinarian.
Dr. Andy Roark: It’s going to be fine. It is, it is not devastating. There will not be some black ball movement against you. Like, no, just you are fine. It will, it will, this too shall pass, I guess.
Stephanie Goss: : I think. I think I have, I have two for, from a, on a, on a personal perspective that, that one that relates to one that you said. So when you said like defining the success by our, our values, I think, I think for me, part of it is knowing like on a personal level, this person was like, it means different things to different people. And so I think on a personal level, you have to take ownership of what does it mean to you and figuring out like what phase you're in.
What is, what are, what are the things that are important to you? I think that there has to be ownership on the team in terms of figuring that out on a personal level and also communicating that to others on a personal level. And so what I mean by that is as a manager, like if you put in a time off request because you. You know, really like want to go to your kid's field trip and that's really important to you, but you put it in with six other time off requests for doctor's appointments and other stuff. How do I like, I'm not asking you why you're taking the time off. So how do I know that that's the important thing to you? Right. And so part of it is we have to communicate those, those needs to our team and to our peers. And I think the other thing from a headspace or from an action perspective is you, you talked about, you know, recognizing that you can make you could make some change. And I think the one thing that is really, really important to remember is that we always have choice.
And, and even if that choice is over our emotions. And so we can, we can always choose to find something different. If something is not working for us, we can always find a way. to make it work. That choice might mean leaving a hospital, or it might mean shifting positions, or shifting hours. There may be consequences that we don't like as a result of that choice, but I think when it comes to the, the well being piece, I think everybody has to, has to take accountability from an action set perspective of recognizing that You always have a choice in, in how you, in how you deal with things. And so to your point, you're not trapped without options.
You can always figure out the options. They may not be, they may not feel good. They may not be what you want, but you still have a choice and you still have options.
Dr. Andy Roark: I, I agree for managers and people who are growing and developing doctors or others. The, the first thing I would say is, is based on, on sort of what I talked about before with the measurements, you know, in the choosing our rulers, things like that, you, you gotta be mindful of how much importance you put on any measurement when we're trying to grow other people.
And so it, When we're worried about making payroll, it is easy to walk into the doctor's office and say, Great, we're going to talk about the number of pets you saw and how much revenue you brought in per pet. But now you're defining these measurements as important. And I'm not saying they're not important.
But it's easy, especially when you're in charge of revenue, if you're the medical director or you're the practice manager or whatever, when you're in charge of revenue and that is the flashing red light or the thing that you have been told, this is how we evaluate people, it is easy to say, these are the things we care about.
Stephanie Goss: : Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think, I think we need to be careful of that. And we can talk about those things, but if we're going to go in and say, this is what matters, I think we should stop and ask ourselves, is this really what matters? And feel, we should, we should make sure that we are talking to people as whole people. I think, especially as we get busy, it is easy to say, these are the two metrics I care about.
But that's not really what we care about. And if we were the person being managed, we wouldn't want to be told, look, buddy, all I care about really is how much money you're making for the practice. Like that's not, that's not what we want.
We just have to be intentional. And again, I'm very forgiving of this with management because a lot of times these are the metrics that are applied to us and how we are and how we're being held accountable, or it's how we need to make payroll and things like that.
We just have to be careful about the idea that I'm going to approach someone and talk to them about their performance and my idea of their performance is narrowed down to this tiny, very specific measurement because it's. hard for someone to not feel like they're failing or to feel like they're not appreciated if you say, look, this is the one thing, this is the only thing that really matters.
That, that's not true. We, we can a hundred percent be open about what measurements we're using and what's important and not make people feel like they're reduced to these specific numbers and they're failing or they're in the bottom of the clinic as far as, you know, how they're performing.
So that's so that's what the first thing for managers is that, you know, it's just just be mindful of what you're telling people is important and remember to factor in what are the things that they care? What are the core values of your team? And again, I love talking about team values and we should talk about that and sort of try to have those have those conversations be intentional.
About what the business needs. And for me, this is about setting clear expectations, right? It's about saying, Hey we need you to call back your bloodworks. Or, we don't need you to call back your blood works. Or, we as a team all decided that we were going to, if somebody called out sick, we were going to call around and see if other people could fill in.
Or, we as a team decided we were not going to call around and try to fill in. If somebody was sick, the people there were going to cover, and we were going to be off. Whatever the needs are.
This is the, this is the amount of vacation time. This is the hours. This is when we need you to arrive in the morning.
We, you know, it's, it's at this time. We expect you to come in by this time. So you have 30 minutes to do phone calls before the first appointment, whatever your thing is. Be clear and specific about what you expect. Don't tell people, no, you know, you can kind of come in or not, but we're, we're going to hold you accountable, you know, if you don't meet this rule.
So be intentional about what you need. And then relatedly be intentional about letting people be off. And a lot of times people don't want to firm up what they require for the business, because they're kind of like, I don't know, let's wait and see how things go. But that's, that is an unintentional erosion of people's ability to get off and be off.
And again, I'm not telling you, I'm not telling you don't call the doctors on their day off if that's what you all agreed to, but I'm saying you need to talk about it and decide is that what we're doing and then adhere to what you guys all agreed to. But don't. not talk about what the expectations are and then kind of freestyle it.
We need to tell people what's expected and then be intentional about letting them be off. And if they're off and they're on vacation and we don't call people on vacation, then don't call them on vacation. You know, if we don't call them on their day off, then don't call them on their day off. And that when I say be intentional, that might be talking to them and they say, you know what, we really don't want to do our blood works on our day off. It doesn't have to be all or none, but just figure out what, what is the expectation and enforce that. And the last thing is, and this may sound silly and unrelated, but it's not lean into positive reinforcement, let people know what they're doing. That's good. And again, this is just about, it's incredible how people feel, how differently they feel when they feel like they are winning.
Versus when they feel like they are losing and it is so funny how many times I've had people come to me and just say, I'm burning out. I'm really like, I'm, I just, I'm overwhelmed and blah, blah, blah. And then they get a wonderful. Thank you. Note. And all of a sudden, they're like, this is the best job.
Stephanie Goss: : Right. Yep. the, energy.
Dr. Andy Roark: is the, the energy. And so I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about manipulating people here at all. But a lot of this comes back to again, when we're talking to people and we're growing them, if you only talk to them about these certain numbers and where they're coming up short, they're going to feel like they're losing.
And it's funny, you will have people talk about their well being and burnout and things like that, not because they're necessarily at capacity, but But just because they feel like they're working and no one appreciates them. It's funny. And if, if we lean into positive reinforcement and celebrating people's victories and making them feel appreciated and calling out what they're doing really, really well, a lot of times you have two people working just as hard.
And one of them hears, you're not saying you're the slowest doctor in the building. And the, and the other one hears, Hey buddy, You get more, You get more, thank you notes than anybody else I've ever worked with. We, we need, we need to get you seeing more appointments, but I got to tell you, the pet owners love you, man. Um,
Stephanie Goss: : Right.
Dr. Andy Roark: Those are just wildly different experiences and it's going to be harder to motivate the latter person to actually make some changes as opposed to the first person who feels like they're failing. That's what I got.
Stephanie Goss: : I have one big action step for managers and it goes back to what we talked about in Headspace in that it's a spectrum, right? Where everybody is on their journey is a spectrum and where what you need for the business is also a spectrum because there's the This has to be done for us to pay our bills and open the door. And there's the, we would like to do these things,
right? And everything in between. And so I think as a manager, you, or someone who is running the business, part of it is you have to define what those business needs are, and none of that can happen, and you need to understand what you're, team needs, what is important to them, what they prioritize, and none of that happens without conversation.
And so I think the number one action step for people who are leading practices is we have got to start to have the conversation. And just figure it out. Define what we need as a business on a spectrum and then try and find somewhere close to the middle. Figure out what is important to all of the members of our team on an individual level. And then recognize if you have 35 team members, you are never going to be able to give everybody everything that they want. But can you come up with a system, especially for something like time off, which has a lot to do with, with wellbeing and happiness at work? Can you find a system? That is somewhere in the middle that is equitable for everybody.
Like that, just thinking about the facts that it is a spectrum, we have got to figure out where the beginning and the end of that is, and figure out how to get to the middle. And none of that happens without starting to have those conversations. With ourselves, with our partners in the practice and running the practice and then, and then with our team, and I'm not talking about has to be some big elaborate thing I'm talking about.
It can be as simple as asking your team, like, you know, if you think about the areas of your life, your, your family, your, your career, your you know, physical health, your financial health, like there are tons of resources out there that can help you look at that. And then just ask them like, Where are you at right now in your journey?
What's important, you know, the mom who just had a baby and came back from maternity leave, family's going to be really probably important to them. And the doctor who just finished vet school and has huge student loans to pay back the financial piece. Then the work piece might be most important to them. If you don't, you won't know that unless you ask them. So I think for me, the first action step is figuring out what that spectrum looks like on both sides. And it starts with asking the questions.
Dr. Andy Roark: I agree. Well cool man, thanks for doing this with me.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah, this was fun. Have a great week, everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark: Thanks everybody!
Stephanie Goss: And that's a wrap on another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Thanks for joining us and spending your week with us. If you enjoyed this week's episode, head over to wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. It's the best way to let us know that you love listening. We'll see you next time.
Facebook Comments