This week on the Uncharted Podcast, practice management geek Stephanie Goss is joined by special guest, Amanda Schwarzwalder, CVPM, RVT, KPA CTP, VTS (Behavior). When Stephanie saw this letter in the mailbag, Amanda was the first person who came to mind to tackle this topic with. For over 20 years Amanda has worked as a veterinary technician in various capacities. Her interest in behavior led her to joining The Behavior Clinic in 2009. A nationally recognized speaker in veterinary behavior and Fear FreeTM Approved Speaker, Amanda enjoys teaching veterinary team members how to implement and develop behavior care as a team. As the Practice Manager, Amanda is often behind the scenes handling the day to day business of keeping TBC running, supporting our referring veterinarians, and working with the TBC team to assist our clients and their pets. With such a well-rounded resume, it makes perfect sense that Amanda has a whole alphabet soup behind her name.
Stephanie and Amanda are taking on an email from our mailbag that came to us from a technician in training who is worried about their comfort level with animals. While this might seem strange to some people in veterinary medicine who are lovers of ALL creatures great and small, Amanda and Stephanie talk through the concerns from a practical, clinical and personal level because there is a lot to this seemingly simple concern. We're not brushing it off, let's get into this…
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, I am very excited to be joined by an Uncharted community member, friend, and colleague. Amanda Schwarzwalder is a CVPM. She is an RVT. In fact, she has got a whole alphabet soup behind her name, as you'll learn as we get into this episode. I asked Amanda to come on the podcast this week for so many reasons, least of which is that she is a VTS in behavior.
We got a question in the mailbag from someone who is working on their technician license, and they had a question about behavior and pets. The first person I thought of was Amanda. I'm super excited to have her jump in and guest host with me this week, as we tackle this mailbag topic about being nervous potentially around some of our patients. This was a fun one. I hope you guys enjoy it. Now, let's get into it.
Speaker 2:
Now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Stephanie Goss:
We are back. It's me, Stephanie Goss, and I am joined this week not by Dr. Andy Roark, but by my friend and colleague. I'm really excited for you all to meet Amanda, because I'm not sure that all of you have had the opportunity. She is amazing. We have an Uncharted community member and a CVPM. Are you an RVT, LVT, CVT?
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
RVT.
Stephanie Goss:
RVT. Amanda has the entire alphabet suit behind her name, so I'm not even going to try and name the letters, because Ms. Amanda Schwarzwalder, who is here with me today, is a technician, practice manager. You are a VTS in behavior, which is why you're here because we're going to have a conversation about a mailbag thing that came through. I was like, “Oh, this is right up your alley.” Amanda Schwarzwalder, welcome to the podcast.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
Stephanie Goss:
I am excited to have you, and I have to ask you a question, because I was looking at your bio and I'm like, “Okay, CVPM, I know that. RVT, KPA, what is that?”
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Karen Pryor Academy certified training partner. Yep. I've been through a formal trainers program to be an animal trainer, multiple species.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. CTP, what is that?
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
That's the certified training partner that goes with the KPA.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. Those two are the training ones, and then VTS in behavior.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yep.
Stephanie Goss:
You told me a fun fact when we were getting ready about the letters behind your name.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, so I also-
Stephanie Goss:
You have to tell everybody.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, so I have a few more letters, because I'm also a Fear Free Certified Elite. By the time you put all the jumble of letters together with my first name and my last name, I am only missing four or five letters from the alphabet. That's my new gig when I lecture is on the title screen, it's like, “these are the letters that are missing. If you know a credential that contains these, let me know.” Then I'll have the whole alphabet. It'll be complete set. That'd be great.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, my gosh. I love it so, so much. Tell our audience, because you are in the Midwest, and then I know you have done speaking, and our Uncharted community knows you, but tell the listeners a little bit about yourself.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah. I am a practice manager for The Behavior Clinic. We are a specialty behavior practice in the Cleveland area. I have two board of veterinary behaviorists that are part of our team, our business owner, and then an associate. Then we also have, I'm losing track, I think I'm up to five RVTs. I've got one other VTS behavior and then some other trainers. We're a team of 14 now, which has been crazy.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, so we do animal behavior. We do mostly dogs and cats primarily. Occasionally, we get horses, occasionally, we get birds. I've also gotten to do some really cool work with Raptor Rehab. I've also gotten to do wolves, and coyotes, and otters are my favorite.
Stephanie Goss:
Whoa.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
I love otters. They're so cool. It's been a lot of fun. We've gotten to help bobcats learn how to give blood, and do some consulting with zoos and things. It's been a really fascinating ride, so sometimes can't believe it.
Stephanie Goss:
I feel like we could just do an episode and hear your story, your stories about-
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
I think some of them might have to get legal permission from clients, but they're really funny. I've got some really good ones.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, gosh. That is so awesome. I'm super excited to have you on the podcast today. Y'all, I thought of Amanda immediately because I got a mailbag letter and when I first got it, I will admit, I was like, “I got to put this on the back burner, because it doesn't feel like it's right up Andy and I's alley.” Then I was thinking about, who would be someone good? We've been doing some episodes while Andy or I have been on vacation, where we've had guest hosts. I was like, “Amanda would be perfect for this one.”
We got a mailbag letter from a young technician intern who is working on their technician license, and they're about to do their internships. They are a little bit nervous and were asking about some tips for becoming comfortable with animals, because they said, “I'm reasonably comfortable around dogs. I've had dogs growing up, and I have friends with dogs in their homes. I feel like I know enough about the basics of canine body language, and I can kind of tell when they're uncomfortable.”
They said, “I've never had a cat, and I don't want one because our current dog has a prey drive,” and I was like, “Good for you, recognizing that. That's a step in the right direction.” They were like, “I have friends who have cats, and I don't feel like I'm as good reading their body language, but I'm a lot less nervous with them.” They said, “I feel like I'm really nervous around the larger animals, and I'm getting ready to move into the step of my program where I'm going to do my large animal internship and get experience with them.”
They said, “I'll pet a large animal, but I don't ever feel completely comfortable.” They reached out, were asking for tips on how to be comfortable around the pets that make them nervous. They said, “I feel like as a technician, I should know the basics of handling a whole variety of species, and not just necessarily dogs and cats.” I was like, “Oh, this will be a fun one. I feel like both Amanda and I probably can get into some stories about being a technician, and nerves and comfort.”
I told Amanda, “We're just going to dive into this one in true Uncharted Podcast fashion,” and we'll talk about some Headspace things with all of you, and then we'll do some action steps that Amanda's got some great resources. We'll have set links in the show notes and everything for everybody. I'm excited to dive into this one with you, Amanda.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah. Well, and I love that in the mailbag letter, that they were actually willing to contemplate willing to get a cat in order to learn more about cats. I'm just like, “You can't do that with every species.”
Stephanie Goss:
No, not at all, or you would have a zoo.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, you would have a zoo, but it's great that we've got that level of commitment, so I love that.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so from a Headspace perspective, I think you and I were talking a little bit before we started recording, I think both of us are in total agreement that I love this letter because this is totally normal. I think there are people who are going to listen to this podcast episode and see themselves in it, whether it's themselves now in their career, or themselves at one point in time.
I know that's how I felt when I read it. I was like, “Oh, I remember that point in my technicians program where I was like, ‘Oh, I'm afraid of these things.'” I've been honest on the podcast about things that I'm still afraid of as a technician. That's things that I have now put into my deal breaker category.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yep, yeah. There are so many things, and fear is normal. It's normal to be nervous. It's normal to be concerned. I love that It also comes from this person's writing, from this perspective of, “I want to know how to be better. I want to know how to feel safe and be safe in these environments,” because that's someone who's going to be a really great technician.
They're asking right questions before they get into those situations, whereas suddenly, they are in that externship and they're like, “Okay, today you're palpating a cow,” and having to go, “I've never touched a cow in my life. What do you mean?” It's great that they're thinking ahead. I love that. I love that they're able to, “Hey, this makes me comfortable and this makes me uncomfortable.” We've got a really good place of self-awareness and where their skills are right now.
I think that's the one thing, as a technician, you're in school. I love it. We're in school. We're in school to learn. I think that's the biggest thing is to remember that in that process, there are things you're going to get to, and you'll get there. It takes time, depending on where that large animal component is in your program, but at least we've got some resources, and lots of things we'll talk about a little bit later.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, and think about it. The possibilities in veterinary medicine, and I remember feeling this when I started my tech program, I was working in a small animal GP, so there were species that we were seeing in the practice every day. We actually had mixed animals. I knew that I was seeing that in the practice, so I was not as uncomfortable about that, but I knew that there's a whole variety of career options out there in vet med.
Thinking about my colleagues, at the time, I was in California in the Bay Area, and I had friends who were technicians for the, we had several zoos in the area. I had technician friends who were working at the zoo, and I thought, “When they went to school, they didn't have in school the learning opportunity with the species that they're now working with.” That's not a part of the curriculum. If it was, if we covered every animal species on the planet, we would be in school for 10 years.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Exactly, yeah. That's the thing, we have such a small timeline for veterinary technician education. It's a two-year program. Some places are 16 months, 18 months. Then we do have some of the four-year programs. I'm a specialist in behavior. The amount of behavior that I was given in that two-year timeframe was very, very little. That's, I think, a really good point of remembering that you're not going to get everything that you need to know in school.
You're going to have to go out and find education for yourself, especially when you've got passion areas that you want to invest more time in, or again, being able to self realize what you need more help with. For me, I'm a CVPM. I always need more help with finance. It's just one of those areas I just always need more help with, but HR, I'm good. You're always going to have to figure out where your weaknesses are and where your strengths are.
Then do like this person is doing and say, “Hey, who can I talk to? Who can I network with? What resources can I find?” Yeah. Yeah, I didn't get otter class in tech school and there was no Otter training course. No, missed that.
Stephanie Goss:
It's so funny, because I remember, I was excited to do this episode for a whole variety of reasons, least of all to get to talk to you, because you have great stories. I knew that our listeners would love you. I remember being a young technician, and I think I was maybe in my final semester of school, but I'm going to share a secret with all of you. I was terrified of birds.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
We share a fear.
Stephanie Goss:
I was terrified, and no one in the clinic knew my dirty little secret. We saw birds. We had a vet who saw small animals, but she also saw avians and exotics. It was a part of our everyday practice, and I had managed successfully to avoid getting on any of her schedule stuff. I knew that the day was coming where I was going to have to confront the fear. We had a client of hers who had a large bird. He was an Amazon parrot, and you'll find this funny, I think, ironic as a behaviorist.
He had some serious feather plucking issues, and his dad traveled a lot for work. He was boarding with us for an extended period of time. I think he was with us for about a month. His enclosure was housed in the office because it was the only place in the clinic that was big enough to put his cage.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
His house, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, exactly. At the time, I was working on a big project for AVImark, and I was coming in at 3:30 or four in the morning west coast time to get on east coast time to talk to AVImark tech support. Every morning, I would get there and I'd be in the office, and I'd be on the server, and he would start talking to me. I sat on the far side of the office from him, because I was just even terrified to go close to his cage. Nobody knew my dirty little secret. He would just keep talking to me, keep talking to me.
I remember sitting there, thinking, “Maybe this is a sign. Maybe it's a time to try this and get over my fear.” We're going to talk about this when we get into action steps, but I knew logically, that when you have a fear, part of getting over it is only facing it, and then desensitizing yourself to it. I remember sitting in that office and being 10 feet apart from him, and literally being afraid he was going to get me, even though I knew that was illogical. I was just like…
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
He has a key, he can open the door. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I was just like, “Please don't hurt me.” I think this is totally normal, and I going to save the other half of my story for when we get to action steps because it has to do with facing the fear, but it's totally normal. I think everybody has that. Is there, besides birds, which seems like we may share…
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Birds and snakes, I'm not really a snake fan. We had one client who used to breed boa constrictors, and so I had to start with the baby snakes. I'm still not a snake fan, but I can be okay. I actually married someone who loves tarantulas. When we started dating, Mr. Snuggles, a little pink toed tarantula that was the size of your hand, and it was Mr. Snuggles because it was the most friendly of his pets. Yeah. There was some chocolate involved. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. We're going to…
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
He wants a much larger one, but I'm not to that point in my spider therapy, so yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. We're going to circle back to that, because there's some stories there.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
First piece, we recognize that this is totally normal, and I love your point about not only is it normal, and I so appreciate the writer who said this, because it's healthy. You said something to me when we were getting ready to start recording that I think is really important. We were talking about it being healthy, and you were talking about particularly in the context of large animals, why fear is a little bit healthy and important.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, it's healthy whether we're talking about large animals, small animal, bird, spiders, or even when it comes to doing things like getting in front of a crowd and speaking. You want to have some sort of a little bit of anxiety, because that's what's going to keep you safe. Your amygdala is there for a reason. It has a job. Its job is to keep you from doing things that are going to harm yourself.
When we're walking up to that bowl that's in the pasture, we want to have that little bit of like, “Okay, you need to be aware. You need to be watching. You need to be cautious.” When you're working with a large animal and they step on your foot, they can break your foot. They're just shifting their weight, but that's going to be a much greater injury that you're going to sustain compared to when you're working with a Great Dane in a room and they step on your foot. It's not going to take a whole lot for you to get hurt when we're working with large animals.
Again, a little bit of awareness of that, “Eh, this makes me a little cautious,” is good. It's the same thing when I'm coaching my technicians in our consult rooms. If you're ever to the point where you are not a little bit worried when you're seeing that dog that has a multiple bite history, and it's got a history of pinning technicians in the vet clinic and biting the doctor, you need to have that. That's what's going to keep you and your doctor safe while you're providing care so that pet can get better. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, it's not that you don't want to believe that they can be trusted, but you should always be aware. That's what I love about what you do is that the idea that we can learn new behaviors, and we can desensitize, and we can train away from behaviors that we may have learned. At the same time, that awareness is so, so important to always keep with you. It's so healthy for you. I love that you train your team on that. That's awesome.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, I spend a lot of time with that. It's the same reason when I'm lecturing, if I ever am doing something like the podcast, or a lecture, if I'm ever not a little bit anxious or excited, then I probably shouldn't be doing it, because maybe I don't care as much about what the outcome is. I want my people to care. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
It is so, so true. People, I think, are surprised when they actually learn, because this is what I do now for a living, and I do the podcast every week, and I am on stage, and I've spoken in front of hundreds of people, but the stage fright is real. Andy's very proud of me because it has gotten better, but I will tell people, “I still throw up before every time.” That's just my body's response.
It's the nerves, and the anxiety, and that excitement. Even now that the excitement outweighs the nerves and the anxiety about my performance, I'm like, “Am I going to trip and fall on my face?” I still have that energy, and it's my body's way of dealing with it. I'm okay with that.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, exactly. You need that. That's where it's like I did some time at Wolf Park in Indiana, and when you're going into the enclosure with a large wolf, you are definitely feeling not super comfortable, especially if
Stephanie Goss:
Even if you're excited about that.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
… they'll hop up on the log next to you, face level, you're just kind of like, “Okay, this is really exciting, but I might die.” It's a very different sort, but again, it's there to keep you safe. It's there to keep you from turning around, going, “Oh, hi, cute wolfie,” and smooching it on the nose, because that won't go well. Wolfies don't like that, it's not their thing. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I want to, what you just talked about dovetails into, I think the next thing from Headspace perspective, which, for me, is thinking about my own career and my own experiences, I think about the things that I was nervous about or I was even truly afraid of. I think that some of the moments of greatest, the most moments of great achievement in my career, a lot of them, or the moments that gave me immeasurable pride, came from facing up to some of those fears and those discomforts.
I remember getting on stage for the first time in front of hundreds of people, and it was terrifying and also exhilarating. Walking into an enclosure with a wolf and having that experience, I would be terrified.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, it's terrifying, but it's amazing.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, but also, what a rush?
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
It is.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
It's a total rush. It's the same thing when you think when we start out as technicians, the first time you're learning to place a catheter. You're like, “Okay, how many zillions of pieces of tape do I need? This is really stressful, and am I going to hit the vein?” Like, “Oh shoot, now it's bleeding everywhere. What do I do with that? Where'd that darn cap cap go?”
Then you're getting that catheter on that little neonatal kitten that's super dehydrated, and it looks terrible, and you get it in, and you're like, “Score. I did it.” You get that big surge of confidence. Again, it's that fulfillment of you did learn it, you got the skill, and you nailed it.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, and pride…
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
You're comfortable with it. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
… Is that pride of feeling like you've taken a skill, something that you've studied, that you've learned, because the skills, and this is my next piece, is the skill gets you so far. You learn, you have all the theory, you have all the bookwork, and it's one thing to know it in my head, and I can recite it backwards and forwards. I'll be honest, this is the kind of technician I was. I'm very book smart. The book learning came very easy to me.
The actual doing was hard. I had to really put time and effort and energy into the doing, because the skills come with practice. For me, when I went to school, I was working at the front desk. I wasn't in the exam room every day. I wasn't getting the hands-on day in, day out experience. Those skills were a lot slower in coming for me. To your point, I still get that excitement and that pride, even in the small things, like hitting a jugular.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Most of us think, “Oh, my God, it's so easy to hit a jugular,” but when you don't do it every day…
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
When you don't do it all the time, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
It's that excitement of I have the knowledge, I know how to do the thing, and I have the skills to do it. That brings the achievement and the pride in what we, I think that's part of why we do what we do.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Right, yeah. Well, and we get the satisfaction that we actually help, we helped an animal. We helped them have a better life today. We helped them have better care. That's what I think a lot of what we do in behavior, especially because we do have these patients who are not, you've got a horse, and it doesn't really want the farrier to touch its feet, but if we don't get the farrier to touch their feet, they might get more damage over time and become lame.
Then we're into a big medical concern that is now more of a problem. It's going to cost the owner more. The horse is going to be in more pain and discomfort, because we didn't have the skillset to get there. That desire to help, I think, is a big thing that empowers a lot of us as technicians is we want to know that we helped the animal. We want to know that we did something to give them care. Most of us, I love it, my favorite question is always, how many of you in the audience love people? When I'm talking to technicians.
It's like, you get five people out of a few hundred. I love people, I love the people part, but I think that's the biggest thing for most of us is we're in it for the animals. Being able to do something that, yeah, we got that blood sample, so now we can treat this dog, and we can have the information to know what's going on.
Stephanie Goss:
I also think that I'm so glad that you brought that up, and I think it's such a good point, because I think one of the things that always stuck with me, especially when I was in school and learning, was I leaned into that discomfort and that fear to help the animal. What I mean by that is that there were definitely circumstances where either it was that I was learning a new skill, or it was a patient, a species that I was uncomfortable with.
I was never afraid to try a thing, but I was always okay to say, “Okay, I've tried it, and it didn't work. I would rather you, the experienced preceptor or whoever's with me, do the thing, because this is a critical patient, or it's more emergent or whatever.” Never, when they were healthy pets, it never worried me, but that comfort level for the patient was always at the heart of it for me. I didn't want my learning to come at their expense.
I think that that's something that a lot of us think about when we're in school, because we care about our patients and we don't want to harm them. It's really easy to practice on the dumb, dopey lab that just sits there, wagging their tail with their…
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, take my blood, it's fine. Yeah. You got more cookies? Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
That neonate that you're just like, “This is critical. We need to hit this. Let's not cause it more harm or discomfort.” I think that that fear factor, that anxiety, spidey senses, it feels different for all of us. For some of us, it is a true fear.
I've talked on the podcast before about my fear over anesthesia as a technician, and I would always absolutely say, “Nope, I'm going to step out,” first thing. I never felt bad about it, because for me, I was putting the patient first.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Exactly.
Stephanie Goss:
It was truly a terror fear level. I also have other friends who, there were other things that I did, where it was like, “Okay, this is a little spidey sense tingling. I feel uncomfortable with it.” I think recognizing that that's going to come and go as you learn and as you develop skills, and sometimes it is the true terror, and sometimes it's just the spidey senses tingling, feeling like, “I'm a little uncomfortable in this situation.”
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, and I think that dovetails in really nicely with behavior, because oftentimes, I find when I'm working with vet teams and we're talking about behavior, no matter what species, everyone has that feeling, like, “Ooh, I was in the room with this patient, and I just got this weird feeling. They weren't comfortable, but I can't tell you why.” That's one of the things with behavior is that we talk a lot about, “Well, pin down the why. Why do you think that that patient is uncomfortable? Why do you think that this isn't going to go well?”
Sometimes we're seeing things that are actually clues that the animal's uncomfortable, or that they might display differently if we contact them in a certain way, or if we get into their space. We aren't very good at talking to each other about what that is, because sometimes we don't know, because again, we don't get that in school, but it's definitely something, “Okay, I'm approaching the horse in the paddock. I just have this weird feeling,” but being able to go like, “Well, okay, stop for a second.” Go, “Well, why do I feel this way? Let me look at my patient.”
Take five seconds, look at the ears, the eyes, all these different things. Then you can also have that, “Okay, I feel this way because this is what I'm seeing in the animal's body language.” Then that helps connect you with that. “Oh, okay.” Over time you go, “Ooh, I'm more aware of that. I'm seeing this as I'm approaching to the paddock, so that is telling me I already need to change some of what I'm doing, because I'm now aware of, well, why did I feel weird? It's because something in that animal's body language told me to be concerned. I just wasn't maybe paying attention to it before.”
That's something that's hard, because in behavior, we have a luxury of an hour and a half consultations that we're spending a lot of time-
Stephanie Goss:
I was just going to say, yeah.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
I've got clients who send us video from home, and all sorts of things, versus when you're in a 15-minute appointment, or you're on a farm call and you've got to get through the barn has 30 horses in it, it's very different. You might be, you're going through faster, you're going, “I feel weird, I don't know, but we got to get this cat vaccinated, so let's go.”
Then later, you're going, “Oh, yeah. They exploded, and there was a reason they were really upset.” Maybe, hindsight's always 2020. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I think that that's an important lesson, though from a leadership perspective, for me, learning to lean into that with my team and teach everyone, myself included, to trust our instincts. I love that as a field, we have become more aware about low stress handling and Fear Free techniques. You certainly can speak to this as a Fear Free Elite, but that was one of the things for me with my team is if your spidey senses tingle, listen to that.
It is always okay to pause and say, “I would love someone else's opinion here, or I'm just going to slow down and sit here with the patient for a minute and see what I see,” to your point, “And I'm going to observe the behavior,” or to say, “Maybe we should do some drugs, and come back at another point in time, even if it's an hour from now versus tomorrow.” I think I love that we as an industry are starting to pay attention to that, because I think it is just as important in your behavior practice as it is in the 15-minute appointment.
If we don't listen to that, that's when we find ourselves in the world, that I think you and I have both been in veterinary medicine long enough, I remember starting and it was, “Cowboy up, man. Just do the thing.”
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Oh, yeah. We got to get this done.
Stephanie Goss:
It doesn't matter.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Grab three more people. We got to get that emergency boardetella. Let's go.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, yeah.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, 27 years in the field, you're going to see a lot.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yep. I think that it's a big thing. I think that even coming from a management perspective, when we have someone like our writer, who's aware of their concerns, being able to express those concerns to whoever you're going to be externing with, is like, “Hey, I don't have experience with horses and cows,” is really big.
Then from the management side of that, is us going like, “Okay, I need to know that, because I need to pair you with somebody who is more experienced, to make sure that you can get some positive learning happening while you're here on this learning adventure of an externship.” Then also, if you aren't comfortable being able to empower them, to say, “At some point, if we're walking in here and you're not comfortable, you need to tell me you're not comfortable, so we can change what's happening.”
That's the same thing with a lot of our technicians that we do during training is if you feel like you're in over your head, it's okay, tap out. You are going to be in over your head at some point, and it's a lot easier to throw you a lifeline while we can still see you before you float away.
Stephanie Goss:
Right, yeah. Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that. Okay, so I said we were going to circle back to your relationship and the spider situation, and here's where we're going to do it. The last thing for me in Headspace is as a person in veterinary medicine, just but a person in general, is it's okay to know your limits, and it is okay to have deal breakers.
I heart you so much. Holy hell, I could not, spiders, arachnids are a deal breaker for me. It's so funny, because I did not know that about you, or your relationship, or your household, and I'm never coming to your house. I love you so much, but I'm never coming to your house.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
It's okay. It passed. I was 24, I don't know. They live for a long time. It's a big commitment.
Stephanie Goss:
Amanda's just talking about it, and I'm creeping out.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Stephanie's just shivering and shaking, creeping out.
Stephanie Goss:
Spiders are a deal breaker for me. In my, hi, Sylvester, in my first practice, where we saw avians and exotics, I have had that in every one of my practices, but our doctor, Dr. Shaefer, Marty saw birds and exotics. I remember vividly, when I was in school having conversation with her, and just being honest and saying, “I am terrified of spiders.”
I was also just like you, I was terrified of birds, and I was terrified of snakes. I said, “I think I can work on these two, but spiders are a deal breaker for me.” I said, “If you see spiders,” I said, “I'm telling you that it is so bad for me that I literally cannot be in the building when you are going to have someone knowingly come in here.” I was just like…
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
“I'll be in the parking lot.”
Stephanie Goss:
“I will be in my car in the parking lot until you're done.” It was okay. She was just like, “That's fine, because we have,” we had a member on our team, because there's always one, who was the, I lovingly referred to her as the spider freak, who loved the spiders. She would be in on every one of those appointments if she could. It was just like, to your point, being able to tap out before you were underwater.
For me, I would have panicked, and then it would've been a worse situation for the team because the tension would be off the patient and on me as the panicker, and dealing with whatever comes from that. I've seen technicians faint, all of those things. Then the attention is not on the patient where it needs to be. I think just recognizing for our writer, and for anybody who is in this, just because it's all creatures great and small in veterinary medicine, doesn't mean that you have to love all creatures great and small, and that that has to be your jam.
It is okay for you to draw lines in the sand, whether it's with a type of patient, or whether it's for me, with surgery, that became another deal breaker for me. I got to the point in my career not to say that I didn't try it, that I didn't try and face the fear and work through it, and I think it is absolutely okay to know ourselves as human beings, and allow ourselves the space to say, “This is a true fear for me, and it is not a fear that I'm in a place to deal with and to face, or that I'm not equipped to face right now. This is a deal breaker.”
It might be a deal breaker for right now, but it also sounds like for you, might be something that you're willing to work on, and you're willing to… The relationship matters more to you than the fear of spiders.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah. That's something, if somebody is really passionate, “Well, I really, really love this job, and occasionally we have to see birds, what's my workaround?” It's like, “Okay. Well, we only book birds on the day when Cindy's here because Cindy loves birds.” Oftentimes, we can come up with some sort of options. You just have to be prepared that sometimes there are emergencies, where you might have to see the bird. That's what happened to me.
You had to see the bird, and it had bugs, and that was actually the part, beaks and the bugs are actually what bothered me more than anything. I ended up doing some work with the Raptor Rehab, and that was actually super helpful, because I'm like, “Raptors are way more dangerous than birds.” You get an eagle, that's much more dangerous.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, so to meet those little Sun Conures, they're just little sparrows compared to some of those other big guys out there. Great horned owl, those are cool, but yeah, not inviting him for dinner. Yeah, he can be outside. That's great. Yeah, it's just when you got to take the time, you got to feed their little mice while they're in recovery in the rehab. Again, you're dealing with wild animals. Again, you want to have that, I don't know about you, but it's, you learn over time.
If it's, again, if birds are your passion, fantastic. You've got the option to find a specialty practice that only does avians or exotics. That's the cool thing about our profession. If there's something that is a deal breaker for you or something you're really passionate about, on the opposite side of the spectrum, we have so many options, so many things out there that technicians can do. It's just been really fun to watch the profession grow and change.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I love that you said that, because thinking about my experience in school, and I know a lot of vets who say the same thing, if you ask me now, I could tell you zero of what I learned to take my boards about cows, zero. Cows, oh, they're so cute. Baby cows in the pasture. Great. Do I want to work with them? Absolutely not. Do I remember any of what I learned? Absolutely not, but that's because I chose a path that didn't involve cows.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Exactly, yeah. I remember, so I was on an AAHA committee for speaker chairs way back, just how long ago, nutrition wasn't a specialty. It was like me, Carol Burns, and Harold Davis. I remember, because I'm like in GP, learning all the things, and you're in school and you're so excited about all this stuff. Harold's just looking at me, he's like, “If you're going to specialize in behavior medicine,” he's like, “There's going to come a day where you're not going to know what vaccine your cat needs.”
He's like, “That's me. I do emergency critical care, and if you ask me about a vaccine my cat needed,” he's like, “I can't tell you. I know it needs one. I don't know what one.” I've reached that point-
Stephanie Goss:
I love that so much.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
… Probably about five years ago. I'm just like, “Oh, Harold was so right.”
Stephanie Goss:
Harold and Kara, they're amazing-
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
They're so fantastic.
Stephanie Goss:
… Human beings.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
It's so funny, because I am unapologetically a fan girl and just as a human and in veterinary medicine, and there are people that I have learned from and looked up to, and when I get to see them talk, or I get to see them speak, and Kara and Harold are two of those, especially growing up with Harold, growing up in California, he did regular stuff at UC Davis, and I remember being very young grad student, Stephanie sitting in a lecture and going, “Oh, my gosh, he's so smart.”
I remember the first time at a conference, just standing there, having a conversation with my friend, Eric Garcia, and he's like, “Oh, there's Harold.” He goes over and talks to him. Afterwards, I remember telling him, “Oh, my God, I'm such a fan girl over Harold.” He's like, “Oh, my god, Harold is the nicest human being on the planet.” Like, “You should go introduce yourself.” I was like, “I can't. I'm just like the little technician fan girl in me. I can't do it.” I love that, of course, it would come from someone like him that would say…
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah. It's just like, you're going to get to a point where you're just not going to know, and it's okay not to know because you've gained all of this other knowledge. You have to, at some point, replace it. Yeah, I remember walking into my VTNE exam, and there were people sitting on the lawn. It was when you actually had to take it on paper back in the day, and they were like, “What's the normal temperature for a chicken?” I just remember going, “If I have to know the normal temperature for chicken for this exam, I'm done.”
Stephanie Goss:
You're screwed.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
“I'm cooked, because I don't know that.” 350 for 45 minutes if you're doing chicken breast? I don't know. I'm like, “Yeah, I can bake it, but I don't know what normal temperature's at.”
Stephanie Goss:
Are you sure?
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, it was a little bit challenging, but that's a good example of, again, you're going to learn so much stuff in school, but you're not going to retain it all. You're going to find other things you focus on. Other things are going to become more important to you, and that's okay. Definitely getting the education and learning more about this stuff is important, though.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it. Okay, this feels like a good place to take a quick break, and then let's come back and talk about action steps and things that we can do to address our concerns and our fears. I, like you, I agree, our writer asked some excellent questions. I want to make sure that we get to them. Let's take a quick break, and then we'll come back.
Hey, everybody, if you are a practice owner or a practice manager, listen up. I've got something for you. If you're not in one of those roles, take a quick break from whatever you're doing, and we'll be right back with the podcast. If you are, I don't want you to miss out, because our Practice Leaders' Summit is happening in December in Greenville, South Carolina in person. Registration is going to be closing. In fact, it is closing on November the 7th, 2023.
If you have not signed up and you have been on the fence, I'm going to give you a little bit of incentive. I'm going to share a coupon code here for you, and I want you to use it, because I want to see you there. Practice Leaders' Summit is all about working on our practices, not in them. This year, we are taking practice owners and practice managers specifically, and we are hoping to bring them all together and let them spend some time separately, so practice owners working with other practice owners, managers working with other managers, because the challenges we face in those roles are so unique.
We need time and space to be able to work together with our peers and collaborate, because no one knows what life is like for us in the clinic better than our peers. We're going to do that, and then we're going to bring everybody together. If you come together with your practice owner, let's say as practice manager, or vice versa, we're going to spend time working on your practice.
Don't fear, because if you come by yourself, you will still get the opportunity to work with practice owners or practice managers in small groups, so that you can spend the time at the end of the conference really working with myself, and Andy, and Maria, and the rest of the Uncharted team, working our way through, what do we really want 2024 to be about for our practices? We're going to tackle some of the big topics.
I'm super pumped about this, so we would love to see you there, and I've got a special code for our Uncharted Podcast listeners. If you go to Uncharted.com/events and you sign up before the November 7th deadline for PLS, and you use this code, it is SG, for Stephanie Goss, UVC, so SGUVC20, you will get $20 off your registration for Practice Leader Summit. If you've been on the fence, if you've been waffling, I haven't shared this on the podcast yet, but I'm throwing it out there.
Go to UnchartedVet.com/events, sign up for the registration, you can use the code to get it for yourself. You can get it for you and your practice owner, or you and your practice manager, but sign up because I want to see you there. Now, back to the podcast.
Okay. Let's get into some action steps. We talked a lot about Headspace, we talked about the main things. It's totally normal to feel this way. We feel a sense of pride and achievement when we try things that feel outside of our comfort zone. Our knowledge gives us confidence, and practice gives us skill. We don't have to have all the answers, and we're not going to know everything coming out of school, and we're going to have to learn a lot of things.
A lot of things we learn, we're going to immediately forget or forget over time, and it's okay to have deal breakers. Spiders are mine. Let's talk about some action steps, because the question our writer asked, I thought was a great one, which is how can they become more comfortable around the animals that make me nervous?
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah. I think the writer made a really great point of like, “Well, I have friends who have cats,” in speaking about that species. Really, that's one of the things that I think landed me in behavior was that I grew up on a farm. When you're growing up as a kid in the eighties, we didn't have all this technology, so what were you going to go do? Well, you're going to go play outside. I spent a lot of time watching animals, and I just found it was fascinating and fun.
Still, for me, there's nothing more relaxing than walking into a barn and listening to animals eating feed. It's just a very relaxing sound. We had pigs, we had sheep, we had horses, the neighbors had cattle. I was very lucky in that I got exposed to a lot of those large animals, but you learn a lot from just sitting and watching. That's one thing in behavior, we talk about the field of ethology, and ethology is all about sitting and watching. You're watching the animals interact with each other.
Then you're looking at the body language. What are the ears doing, eyes, tail? Does that animal, is it signaling that it's comfortable, or uncomfortable? Are they moving into a space next to someone? Are they moving away? A lot of little pieces, and it's fascinating. I know, totally geeky stuff, but…
Stephanie Goss:
No, I love it.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
That's a way to learn more about a species. You can start with your basics and your body language. That's the nice part about Fear Free is we've got the cat section of Fear Free now available. We've got feline body language, we've got canine body language. Then the new section that was launched recently is equine. There's Fear Free Equine. For people who haven't had much exposure to horses, there are videos in there. There are diagrams.
Similar crossover to what's already in there for dogs and cats, as far as looking at ears, eyes, tails, body posture, and positioning. It's for horses.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
That's something else that's out there. There are lots of tools in that department, but just spending some time, if you have a local shelter and you're not super comfortable with cats, there are a bunch of shelters by us that would love for people to come in and clean kennels, or just play with kittens. We have a shelter less than two minutes from our practice, and I have a pass. When I'm having a stressful management day, I can go over and knock on the door, and go play with kittens for a little bit. It's great. Great therapy, but they would love to have you come.
Just like we have small animal rescues, there are large animal rescues. A lot of people don't really think about that, but there's a whole community for large animal rescue, where you can go, and again, get a chance to interact with some of those species in a different setting, that's lower stress than during an internship, or during class, where you're like, “Oh, shoot, this is my only chance to draw blood on a pig.” You can actually go out and meet a pig, pet a pig, talk to a pig, read a book to a pig.
You can have a different interaction and just sit and watch. We're really lucky by us, there's what's called Lake Farm Park, and it's a large animal sanctuary. They also have farm animals there for educational purposes for the community. When I think about it, even when I was teaching in tech school, I taught one of the large animal courses, and I love that class, because again, I'm teaching tech school in Cleveland. Most of my students had full sleeves, multiple piercings, ear space, all over the place.
We're going through, talking about tattooing large animals, and also doing ear notching, or putting tags in large animals. They're like, “well, doesn't that hurt? Do you do lidocaine first?” I'm like, “did you ask for lidocaine before you got your nose pierced, and your ears, and your full sleeve?” It's like, “Oh, it's the same process. It's just a different species.” It was really fun for them to go, “Oh,” because a lot of them didn't have any exposure.
Stephanie Goss:
Right, right.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
I did a really cool science camp at one point for, they were inner city youth, and it was a farm-based camp. They were all, kids who were really smart, but didn't have any exposure to farms. They got to come to OSU ATI, and they go through all of the, they got to play in the labs, they got to go out and collect corn samples, and then look at grains-
Stephanie Goss:
That's awesome.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
… Then look at milk. Their favorite part was the calves. That was their favorite part of the whole thing.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
It was looking at the whole science of where does your food come from?
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, that's awesome.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
How does science and math interplay with farming? It was really great time. Yeah, those kids, they had no experience with large animals. I think that's the thing we have to remember is most people coming into tech school anymore don't. The days when you have a lot of technicians who are coming from a foreign background, it just doesn't exist anymore.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, yeah.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
You also probably are not alone, to our writer. There are probably other people in your class who have the exact same feeling. You can do a field trip to the large animal sanctuary together, and that can be a nice way to have some camaraderie, talk about your feelings.
You also get to see or talk about from someone else's eyes, “Well, what do you see? Does that animal look comfortable? Do they look uncomfortable? Did he like getting scritched behind the ear when you touch him? Is that okay?” I said, “Oh, I'll touch him too.”
Stephanie Goss:
I love that you brought up the idea of rescues and sanctuaries, and volunteering. That was going to be a step for me as well. I think Andy and I talk a lot on the podcast about how much neither of us is excited about social media anymore. What I would say is that social media is a great resource here, because there are so many, as we have seen the shift away culturally from funding for so many things, rescues and sanctuaries are one of those things. They continue to exist, most of them, I would argue, off of the generosity of patrons and donors.
Social media is a very powerful resource for them. Like you, we've got some awesome programs near me. There is someone who I followed for a long time on social media, and they have a farm animal sanctuary here in Washington, and it is On Alaska Farm Sanctuary. I love what they're doing, because they purely exist to rescue farm animals, which I think is awesome and different. They're a great example of lots of rescues are looking, and sanctuaries are looking, at alternative options for exposing people to what they do and what they have.
Searching social media for what's out there in your area is a great idea. The other thing that I have seen more and more of, which I think is so cool, and OFA is a great example here in Washington, is that rescues and sanctuaries that have actual physical spaces, I've seen more of them also try and generate alternative income by having an Airbnb, or a hip site camping site on their grounds. You can go, some of them offer work experience options, where you can go and help clean, to your point, and scoop poop, shovel, whatever. There's always work to be done in a rescue, in a sanctuary. You get the benefit of helping them out.
At the same time, the opportunities to just sit and watch. Like you said, I love that so much. I think, I remember back to being in school, but I've seen it more as a manager. I was always a little bit hesitant, because I was nervous of my own skills in school, I'll be honest. I was always, this will probably surprise some people, I was probably one of the last people to raise my hand and say, “I'll go,” because it was not, I was like you. People? Give me people all day long. The science was new for me. I had to really push myself out of my comfort zone there.
I see this trend in our technicians, and I've seen this as a manager, and I'm guessing you've probably experienced it, where we have more and more students who are assistants who go to tech school, and they want to skip from the learning immediately to the doing, and not only just the doing, but the being successful, because they think the only way to learn is to do.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Right.
Stephanie Goss:
I set everybody up as a manager with having the conversation, and I make it very clear: you don't skip the watching step in my practice, like watching, and observing, and listening. I'm not just talking about once.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Right.
Stephanie Goss:
I'm talking about over, and over, and over, because you learn so much. I spent two years at the front desk, working with someone who had a nutrition background, and I learned almost everything I know about veterinary nutrition by listening to her have the consults with clients on the phone. I wasn't getting to do anything fun or glamorous. I was literally listening to the same spiel over and over and over again, but I learned so much about dermatology, about dental care.
There was other facets of veterinary medicine that I learned so much about, and I was only getting that because I was observing the same things over and over and over again. I love your point about just sitting, especially when we're nervous, sitting with the patients from a safe distance.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yes, exactly.
Stephanie Goss:
Especially if you're nervous.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Not full time with them. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Right, or not when you're like, “Okay, get a blood draw on this patient,” because you're in your clinical rotation, right? It's like, “Let's just sit and observe.”
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, let's just take some time. Let's sit and watch. That is a big thing. Even in training my team, you're not going to be touching a patient until you have done a lot of observations. Then we have video cameras in all of our rooms that are there for teaching. They're recording the consult. I love it, because again, when you set up video cameras, that you're using them for education, it's awesome.
My team will come to me and be like, “Hey, I think I missed something before that dog snapped. Can you pull the camera for me?” They will use that to, again, help learn to that next step. That's where video is another great way to learn. There's so much stuff online. Social media is great for finding those good positive rescues and resources. Then also, you can also find a lot of cool stuff that's out there for educational videos on horse safety, or I found a really cool one, it's called, what is it? Pasture IO, it's on cattle behavior.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Who knew?
Stephanie Goss:
That's awesome.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
There's all sorts of cool stuff out there. Then the RSPCA has a really cool website for equine behavior, and I like the RSPCA, because again, horses in Britain, it's kind of fun. They're everywhere. You just get on your horse, and you just go ride into town and have some coffee. There's a whole different vibe. The other thing is sometimes, Europe and the UK, when it comes to behavior, they're ahead of us. We're kind of behind in some things behaviorally here in the States, compared to things that are allowed and not allowed overseas.
Always, anytime you're looking at any of these resources, if you're out there looking for cow videos, or goat videos, or something, look at, again, where's that coming from? Always do a resource check.
Stephanie Goss:
Right, the source.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Check your sources, check who wrote it, what degrees do they have? You're looking for DMBs, PhDs, certified applied animal behaviorists, or associate certified applied animal behaviorists. Look at where it's coming from to make sure you're getting accurate information. That's always a big part. There's a lot of not good stuff out there, especially when it comes to behavior of animals.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yeah, we could, I'm sure we could do a whole-
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, that's a whole other podcast. Yeah, that's a whole other time.
Stephanie Goss:
No, I love that. I think I said when we got to action steps, we were going to come back to this, because I think a big part of the final one, besides resources, and I have some, and we've mentioned several of them, like low stress handling, Fear Free, we'll drop links to all of that in the show notes for you. I expect we probably can come up with some coupon codes for listeners as well for some of that resource info.
We'll drop that. I love your links, and I'll pull those in. I think a big part of it, besides the observing, is just recognizing that we're not going to be perfect in a day. Even when we come out of school, and we are certified, and we have passed the boards, and we are technicians, and there is a measurable pride in that, you don't know all the things. Veterinary medicine is one of those things that it just takes time and exposure, and it is a journey.
That's what I constantly have to remind my team and remind myself, like you, I've been in this over 20 years, and I still learn new things. Recognizing that it's going to take time and exposure, and just repeatedly doing things. I told everybody, I would share the other half of my Willie Bird story. That was it for me was just every day, I was sitting in that office and I was like, “Okay, maybe now is the time to desensitize myself.”
I think part of it is just facing the fear, and owning it, and acknowledging that you have a fear. The other part of getting over the fear is either choosing to not face the fear, because it is a deal breaker, and it is okay to say that you don't feel safe, and that's a deal breaker for you, but if it's something that you want to face, then the desensitizing process, you got to try it. Sometimes that's baby steps leading up to it, and sometimes it's jumping all in and doing a thing, and trying it.
For me it was like, “Okay.” I was sitting 10 feet across the room, having a conversation with this bird every day. I was just like, and the other thing besides the feather plucking, was he was a biter, but he was talking to me every morning. I looked at him one day dead in the eye and I was like, “Listen, Linda. I'm going to let you out.” I was like, “But you have to promise not to bite me.” I remember being so nervous. The funny part is now, I would never do it, because I'm like, “What would I have done if he had escaped?” So many things could have gone wrong.
I remember sitting there, because I remember Marty telling me, “He's not going to really hurt you. It's fine,” but I just was so irrational in the fear. I started to lift the cage door, and I shut it because I was like, “Okay, I'm afraid.” Then I started to lift it and he could sense it, and he immediately popped his head out from under the thing and started to crawl up my arm. I froze. I was just like, “Oh my god, oh my god.”
Of course, being a parrot, he sensed it, and he knew, and he walked right the hell up to my shoulder, right next to my head, and I literally, shoulders up, I froze.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I'm like, “Don't move, don't move, don't move.”
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
This is flooding. This is not desensitization. This is flooding. Let's be clear.
Stephanie Goss:
I was not intending. I thought, “He'll come out, and he'll sit on top of his cage, and it'll be…”
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
You had a conversation.
Stephanie Goss:
… he'll be out.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
He made a promise.
Stephanie Goss:
Like I said, I would never do this if I was doing it over. Then that's how Marty found me. Two hours later when the rest of the team came in, I'm sitting at our boss's desk, and I'm frozen. I managed to get over to the chair and just sit down. That was it, because I was like, “If I move, he's going to bite me. If I move, he's going to bite me.”
Then every day, and I would look at him and I was like, “Don't bite me,” and he didn't every day. I was still afraid, but every day it got a little bit… I was still stiff as a board, but every day, it got a little bit easier. I never really, I still now am not super easy around birds. They give me anxiety. I have to pep talk myself and deep breath, but I can, over time, I worked on restraint techniques. Now I'm like, “Okay,” and hearing you talk about working with the raptors, how cool of an experience would that be?
There's a part of me now, and young Stephanie would've told you you were on all the drugs in the world if you told me that I would be excited about trying something like that. Hearing you talk about it, that would be awesome.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah,
Stephanie Goss:
I would love that, and that only comes from facing the fear.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Right, exactly, yeah. That's where it's like, you don't always either start with raptors. That's the thing, when you're working at the rehab, they don't start you with the great horned owl.
Stephanie Goss:
Right, yes. Thank God.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
You're going in with like, “Okay, let's take care of the baby birds.”
Stephanie Goss:
The Conures.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
It's like, “The doves that fell out of the nest, here's some robins.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
That's the desensitization process is you want to start with something below threshold. You were way above threshold with your parrot.
Stephanie Goss:
Don't do what I did.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
That is learned helplessness. Yeah, but you're going to start below that threshold with things that are like, when I talk about it with my clients, I'm like, “Your dog is uncomfortable with other dogs or kids on bikes, so we're not going to start with kid on a bike. We're going to start with just a bike, or just a kid, but we're also not going to start with them within five feet of you. We're going to find, what's the point where they can see it-
Stephanie Goss:
Right, further away.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
… And not be panicked?” It's the same thing with me with the spider. That was kind of how, like, okay, I was not going to walk in there, open the top and put the crickets in. That was not happening after a couple of dates, so that's where it takes time. We had to have conversations about the spider. I had to learn a little bit more about the spider. Like, “Okay, well, this isn't an arboreal spider. This is a little bit more of a terrestrial spider. It doesn't really move that much.”
I had to do some watching of the spider to confirm that it really didn't move that much. Then it was like, “Okay. Well, it's not, isn't bad,” but then it's like, “Okay, going into the apartment and going into the apartment next to the room with the room with the spider,” and then there's good dinners that are happening, there's chocolate, there's jewelry.”
You need the positive reinforcement for doing these things. My husband's actually standing in the kitchen, laughing at me right now.
Stephanie Goss:
It's so much.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
It's not a big deal. Then I'm like, “Okay, she's got this kind of cool terrarium. I can be in the,” and then you would, and sit and watch her. I'm like, “Okay, what are you doing behaviorally?” She really didn't do anything. I was like, “Okay, you don't move? We're good.” That's okay.
Then over time, I was able to lift the top and dump some crickets in, because again, she didn't do anything. It kind of lulled me into a slight false sense of security, because then we got a second spider, and it was arboreal type.
Stephanie Goss:
I was going to say, hmm.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
They move a lot more, but yeah, but again, it was a lot of like, we got her when she was very small. She wasn't as big as the other spider. We were starting with the hand sized spider.
Stephanie Goss:
Right, right.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Di was barely the end of your thumb. She was tiny. It was like, “Oh, this is cool to start, a baby spider. She's pretty colors.”
Stephanie Goss:
Work our way up to hand sized.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Exactly, yeah. It was like, “All right.” Yeah, with her, she moved too much for me. That was a no-go until the day she got dehydrated. This is where I had a really hard time, because it was like, the technician kicked in. I can't let this poor little thing be dehydrated and not be okay. I'm not liking spiders, finding myself Googling spider nursing care, something I never thought I would do.
Again, it is about, okay, I got to find this information about this spider, and what do I need to do? There are things out there for spider nursing care if you have that emergency.
Stephanie Goss:
Who knew?
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Who knew? Yeah, so I had to get my little plastic containers, and I got my little paper towels all wet, and then I had to get her into a little box with the damp paper towels, and then to get her re-hydrated.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my gosh.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
It worked. Yeah, because it was kind of that technician oath of like, “Well, I can't let her die,” kicked in. I'm like, “But it's a spider, and it's really kind of creepy,” but it was that…
Stephanie Goss:
That instinct took over.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
That instinct took over and I fixed the spider. Yeah, and she lived for a while, so she's cool.
Stephanie Goss:
You are a better human and a better technician than me. I could not do it.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, I don't know if I'll do it again. He's like, “Hissing cockroaches.” I'm like, “Yeah, I think that's my hard line. I know they're only like 50 cents, but no.” He's like, “You just spent $1,700 on your cat's mouth.” I'm like, “Yeah. Yeah, I did. He's a good cat. He's soft.”
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, my gosh.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Cockroach is not soft. Yeah. They are fascinating to watch behaviorally, but I don't know that I want them in my house.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, my gosh, this has been so much fun. I feel like I see more Amanda Schwarzwalder episodes in the future, because holy cow, we could talk forever.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
There are so many things. There are so many things.
Stephanie Goss:
This has been fun. I love your perspective. You are one of our Uncharted speakers. You are at our Team Lead Summit in 2023, and more things to come. Where are you, speaking of social media, are you on social media? Where can people find you if they're interested in behavior, the clinic, or any of that kind of stuff?
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
The clinic is TheBehaviorClinic.com, and you can reach me on there.
Stephanie Goss:
You're on there, the team page.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
You can reach me through there. Then people are always welcome to direct email me with any questions. I am always recruiting for the specialty. The specialty is ABBT.net.
Stephanie Goss:
Love it.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
That is a great way, again, we have a huge recommended reading page, which has large, small animal sources, exotics, bunch of reading materials there. If you want, again, more links, we got those. Yeah, you can always reach out to me directly by my email, it's RVTVTSManager@gmail.com.
Stephanie Goss:
I'll put that.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
I'm happy to answer any questions, because I would like to retire someday, and I can't do that without having another VTS-
Stephanie Goss:
Without more techs.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
… To take my place. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it. I will put Amanda's email in the show notes as well. This has been wonderful. I hope everybody enjoyed this fun break from the two of us, and we will see you all back next week.
Amanda Schwarzwalder:
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast.
Stephanie Goss:
Thank you. Take care, everybody. Have a great rest of your week. Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. As always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast, or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message.
You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is UnchartedVet.com/mailbag, or you can email us at Podcast@UnchartedVet.com. Take care, everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
