A medical director is having trouble navigating the balance between supporting paraprofessional staff in tech school and ensuring they have the necessary technical skills for their role. In this episode of the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Stephanie and Dr. Andy Roark discuss a specific scenario where a veterinary assistant, allowed to study on the clock, is struggling with skill development. The conversation turns into a thoughtful debate about trust, team expectations, and the challenges of leading a veterinary team with fairness and empathy. They explore how communication and adjusting expectations can prevent feeling like the “bad guy” while supporting staff in skill growth. Let's get into this episode!
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss: Hey everybody, I'm Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. And this week on the podcast, we are tackling a letter in the mailbag from a veterinarian who has moved into a lead chief of staff role in their practice. And they're really struggling because this practice has some particular quirks that they've inherited, including veterinary assistants who are quite in school being allowed to do homework on the clock.
This vet is struggling with not only wondering if they did the right thing with how they approached it. They're also struggling with the aftermath that seems to be happening within the team. This was a interesting one. We got a little spicy. Let's get into it.
Dr. Andy Roark: And we are back, it's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only Stephanie, it's the end of the world as we know it, Goss. Oh man, how are you doing, today?
Stephanie Goss: I I thought that would might be what you were going to use, but I was waiting for you to sing it to me. And I was singing it in my head.
Dr. Andy Roark: It’s the end of the world. They kind of chant the song, which is good.
Stephanie Goss: Yep. It's good for, it's good for your singing.
Dr. Andy Roark: I love that old Tommy boy clip where they're singing it in the car and they get about six lines into it and then it just kind of runs away from them. That's my favorite. One of my favorite little, little, little clips.
Oh, man.
Stephanie Goss: I am good. How are you?
Dr. Andy Roark: I'm good. I'm good. Things are, uh, moving fast these days, you know, the fall has really kicked into high gear,
Stephanie Goss: This year has just like. I feel like that's a sign that you're getting old AF is that every year you say, Oh, this year has just flown by. But I really feel that way about
Dr. Andy Roark: I mean, the fourth quarter of the year is right up on us. And again, now it's like Q4. I remember we were getting started. I was writing resolutions for the year and like doing predictions and, oh my gosh. Yep, another year in the books where I wildly, inaccurately predicted how the year would go.
Stephanie Goss: And all of the things that you didn't have on your bingo card at the start of the year.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh my gosh. This year has been completely bonkers in the world in general like in the world in general assassination attempts late candidate swaps for the election just absolute chaos.
Stephanie Goss: I had one, I had one this morning, like, it's so funny because so you and I both have over this last couple of years, but for me really in particular this year, I have really backed off of my consumption of social media and,
Dr. Andy Roark: Good for you.
Stephanie Goss: and on, on occasion, I'm just like, let me see. And I, it's funny because I am very intentional about my choices and I'm.
And I'm old. So I'm not generally on the TikTok but I watch my things on the Instagram reel, like the boomer that I am. And, uh, I was watching some reels this morning and I could tell you, I did not have it on my bingo card. Just like I did not have that Snoop Dogg would be like the star of the Olympics on my bingo card.
I did not have on my bingo card this year that RuPaul would be teaching the young Gen Z's how to change the attire on their car and be a at home mechanic. I saw that, I swear to God, I saw it on the Instagram Reel today and I was like, I didn't have that on my bingo card, but that's freaking amazing.
Where did you learn how to change attire? Oh, a drag queen taught me. Like I just made me, made my, it was fantastic. If you haven't seen it, you should go and watch it cause it was amazing.
Dr. Andy Roark: Was it demure? You know? Like, like I didn't That was also Didn't see that coming. There's other things like that that have come up on, online. Do you know who Theo Vaughn is?
Stephanie Goss: No.
Dr. Andy Roark: Theo Vaughn is this, Comedian, right? And he's from Louisiana and he rocks like a hardcore mullet.
You know what I mean? Like,
Stephanie Goss: a mullet? Okay. Yep. This tracks.
Dr. Andy Roark: Picture, jean shorts and a mullet You know what I mean? And like a little goatee. And, and he leans into that, like that's his shtick, right? And, he's, he's a comedian. I don't know where he falls on the political spectrum, but he's edgy in some ways, but I, I do a lot of comedy and stuff, so, so I, I tend to see a lot of comedians and stuff.
Uh, he's, he's interesting in, in that way. I saw him on the Instagram Reels. He has a podcast, right? So comedian, mullet, jean short podcast. In the last month, he interviewed Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. He's interviewing Donald. He's got jean shorts a sport coat and a mullet and he's interviewing the Donald presumably like Mar a Lago, and again, I don't want him this to be political or anything
Stephanie Goss: We're sure.
Dr. Andy Roark: The idea that this comedian again, no shade against him as a comedian. He's just he's like the um,
Stephanie Goss: That’s so random.
Dr. Andy Roark: He's like a modern Jeff Foxworthy like Uh huh. That's uh huh. Yep. Jeff Foxworthy interviewing the Republican presidential nominee, you know, like nominee.
He's not even the primaries and I'm just like And Bernie this and Bernie Sanders on the other side the week earlier He got Bernie and was like the idea that this is
Stephanie Goss: Not on my bingo card.
Dr. Andy Roark: .. what media is today. It's just had never would have happened when I was a kid, Bill Clinton was not talking to, you know, there's, there's, I say as podcasters.
Yeah. And it was just, again no, I don't, I don't know what that means and there's no shade or anything. But I, as I watched it, I was just like,
Stephanie Goss: It means we're old.
Dr. Andy Roark: Goodness, gracious, the world is a different place than it was when I was young.
Stephanie Goss: This whole intro makes us sound like the boomers we are is,
Dr. Andy Roark: It totally does. I really wrestle with that. It's so funny you say that.
I was like, I feel like I'm becoming the old person who doesn't exactly recognize the world anymore. And like, I'm not that old, but I'm like, but, in my defense, I don't think the world used to move this fast. I think the difference between the world in 1960 to 1990 would be. And the difference between 1995 and 2025, I think those are radically different things.
I mean, that's, the pace has clearly picked up. But, goodness gracious, there's just so much change. But, alright, anyway, I, sorry,
Stephanie Goss: Yes, yes, so the, take the takeaways,
Dr. Andy Roark: If you're feeling like the world's changing, you're not alone. You're not alone.
Stephanie Goss: Go watch. Go watch RuPaul. Learn how to change a tire. Tire. Change a tire. Okay, so we have got we've got a great mailbag letter today though that I want us to dive into. 'cause it is a little bit of, is it the end of the world? So we've got a letter from a lead lead. Vet at a practice and, um,
Dr. Andy Roark: a medical director?
Stephanie Goss: medical director, Chief of staff what have you. But they're, they're a doctor, right? And so they but they're in a corporate group and they have not worked at this practice location, but they have worked at several other local practices. They joined the practice and they learned that the paraprofessional team, in particular, they have some vet assistants that are going to tech school. And at this location, apparently previously the assistants had been allowed to work on schoolwork during their downtime. So they were allowed to the, they were in tech school, the school is being paid for in part or in whole by work as a benefit, which is something that happens sometimes, and they are also getting paid on the clock to work on their schoolwork.
And so, there is in particular, this vet is struggling because they have an assistant who is struggling with their technical skills. And they're getting close to being done with their program, and they still don't have all of the technical skills that this doctor would expect that a soon to be licensed technician would have.
And they're seeming to prioritize doing schoolwork over practicing and working on technical skills. And so, the doctor had a conversation with the hospital manager because they said, look, there's, I've been here now for a while. I've been watching all of the assistance. There are some gaps in their skill set that I would like to rectify so that we can improve our patient care, that we can work more efficiently, more effectively, all of those kinds of things.
So they had a conversation with the assistants and this one in particular had, it sounds like a meltdown and because they said that they felt threatened and singled out and said all kinds of, uh, things in the heat of the moment. And this chief of staff or medical director is like, what do I do with this?
It doesn't seem like, and none of the other hospital locations I've worked at ever allowed their staff to get paid to do school on the clock. These team members need to work on their technical skills. How do I enforce this, get them to work on this, but also how do I get them to look at themselves critically and recognize where they are lacking in skills? How do I get them to reprioritize their time? And most importantly, they asked, how do I earn the trust and respect of these team members who now are, for all intents and purposes, looking at me like I'm the root of all evil because I've told them you can't do schoolwork on the clock anymore.
And I thought this was a great one. I have some thoughts, certainly from the manager perspective, but I thought we could have some fun diving into this one.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Yeah. I have, I have, I have thoughts on that.
Stephanie Goss: I figured you might have some thoughts. Uh
Dr. Andy Roark: You know, when you look at something from the outside and you see someone making mistakes that you made yourself like 20 years ago and you're like? and again, you like, you love the person cause you're like, I know exactly what you think. I know exactly why you think that, and I know exactly how this is going to go, because I did exactly what you're doing, and it did not go well, it blew up in my face.
Stephanie Goss: You're like, I I see that. I see that gopher trap because I stepped in it.
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, in a way it makes this, makes me really happy, because it validates mistakes that I made early in my career, and I'm like, oh good, here's someone else who had the same thoughts that I had, and the same explosion in the face is happening again.
alright, um, I think we're gonna go ahead and need to, we're gonna need the theme song right up front, because we're going to Camp Tough Love,
Stephanie Goss: Camp Tough Love
Dr. Andy Roark: Camp Tough Love. here. Here we go. All aboard.
Dustin Bays: All aboard! Get ready for a SAFE talk. You might need a stress walk. That's what we do at Camp Tough Love!
Dr. Andy Roark: All right. So Camp Tough Love. Um, I get yeah, so I get it. I get where we are and I say this to this writer with love and we're gonna fix this.
It's all good. We're gonna fix it. First thing we gotta do here is Flaming Raging Sword of Justice check and I get it. I get it You're there and
Stephanie Goss: Maybe it's a little late for that.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's, it is late. It is late, but I just want look slowly down and off to your dominant hand and if there's a flaming raging sword in it you have pulled the flaming raging sword of justice and put it to use and I feel like where is a cleanup job from the flaming raging sort of justice is what I feel like this is and so okay not insurmountable all good, but I totally understand.
You're there. You're busting your butt. This person is not where they need to be as far as skills. It's probably frustrating to work with someone who doesn't have the skills they need and then you look around and are they practicing their skills? No, they're working on homework for a class that they're taking while they're on the clock.
I get it. And I think we can all, if you think about that for a moment, we can all imagine snatching the sword of justice and taking some heads, making, making the justice happen. We can all get it. However, the Flaming Raging Sword of Justice cuts both ways, and we've got some self-inflicted wounds now to deal with.
And so that's it. So I just gotta say that up front. Okay, from a headspace standpoint, number one, Flaming Raging Sword of Justice check. Number two, the way that we talk about decisions we make with our staff, it really matters. Okay.
Stephanie Goss: Mm example I want to put forward is the difference in fees and discounts.
Dr. Andy Roark: If I run my vet clinic and I said to you, Hey, I'm going to charge you a fee to use your credit card. Or I'm going to charge you a fee to come on on the same day of the service. I'd probably make you mad.
Stephanie Goss: Mm
Dr. Andy Roark: I instead. said to you, I'm going to give you a discount for paying in cash, or I'm going to give you a discount booking further than one day in advance. You'd probably be okay with it.
And it's amazing how that matters to people because ultimately charging fees versus giving discounts is often the exact same thing. It's the exact same thing.
Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm. Because how many people are still going to whip out their wallet and pay with credit card?
Dr. Andy Roark: Plenty of them. Exactly right, but they're going to be really mad about it if they have to pay a fee, if you're upcharging a fee. If you get a discount for paying in cash, you're like, great, well I wish I had cash, I'd get a discount, but I don't have, I don't have, I can't get the cash discount. It's the exact same thing.
And, when we have when we have staff members that are taking advantage of a policy, It's important that we try to not make them feel like we're taking something away from them. Now, our writer says, none of the other hospitals in our group would ever let this happen. This is not supposed to be part of the job.
They're not supposed to be getting this. And I say, I understand, however, the mind of your team, they're not getting. They're not getting a perk.
Stephanie Goss: Right,
Dr. Andy Roark: is just what it means to work here.
Stephanie Goss: right. It is what it is.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, exactly right. They're not, they have not been enjoying a benefit. They have been just working and now they're taking a penalty.
Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark: And I think that that's really important to
Stephanie Goss: Because you joined the team.
Dr. Andy Roark: You join the team and now their compensation, if you think of it like that, part of their compensation is being able to work on their homework and get paid. That's a nice little perk. If you can get it, you should take it because it's a sweet perk.
You're taking that perk away from them. So you came in and they lost a perk that they were actively using. Just like the fees and the discounts, we can navigate this, but we need to get smart about how we communicate what's going to happen when it's going to happen, how it's going to happen, the iterations to get from where we are to there. But just remember that that's a big part of it
Stephanie Goss: And I love that you put, I love that you put it in that headspace because the parallel that I'm sure some of my fellow manager colleagues listening immediately made because it's the parallel that my mind jumped to the second that you said it that way. And I hadn't thought about it this way previously.
I immediately jumped to the age old debate in veterinary medicine where the manager or the practice owner is like, Oh, I suddenly became aware that the IRS has rules about what we're allowed to discount and how we're allowed to do it. And so we're going to follow the IRS rules and the team loses their mind because they don't view it as you're trying to follow the rules.
They view it as you're taking away a benefit that they have had. And it's it's that same exact, it's, that same exact scenario.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's exactly that. So I think that's, that's because that's the first part, right? The fees versus discounts, the way we talk about what we're giving and taking, it, it really matters. The idea about what the job is important. Okay. This is coming from a guy that has all remote employees.
An unlimited vacation in his company. And so you better believe that I have questions sometimes about how people are spending their time. I just do. There's no way you could run my business and not have some questions about what people are doing. And I still choose to do that. We don't have tracking software.
We, I, again, I don't. It's unlimited vacation. I shifted my mindset a long time ago to what are the outcomes that I expect from people. And I think that the mindset of This person is clocked in for this many minutes and they should be doing this and that. I think that's becoming increasingly sort of antiquated in some ways.
I don't want people to lose their mind thinking about that. But I do think it's hard in the modern workplace. And I think fewer and fewer people really look at it as I'm on the clock and this, these minutes are worth this. I think more and more our society is shifting to the idea of what is the work output or outcome that this person is being paid for and it was it was just interesting.
I really think that when the pandemic hit and a lot of people went to working from home, that became very clear because what people found is that they could get their whole entire job done in less time when they were working at home.
And then the debate became well, I'm paying you for 40 hours. You should be working for 40 hours. And other people said, I'm doing my job. And I'm getting done in 32 hours, that should be fine. And it's really, and there's not right or wrong, it's really what have you agreed to, is the answer. What are the expectations of what have you agreed to?
I can imagine some people's blood boiling right now, but bear with me. There's nothing wrong with saying, this is the work I expect you to get done, and this is what I'm paying you for. Which is how we run Uncharted. Like I, we have work outcomes. That are expected and paid for. I don't I'm not tracking people's hours.
Other side is to say this is exactly how we're doing it. And your hours matter. That's what you're paid for. There's not a right or wrong. It's just everybody needs to be in agreement about what it is. And there should be clear expectations about this is how it looks when I was. When I was an associate vet, I was not a brand new baby associate vet, I had been a vet for a long time.
And I worked, I was working this practice years back, it's not the practice I'm currently at. But in this practice there were a couple of kennel kids, and I call them kennel kids because they were kennel kids. They were 16 to 18 years old, like they were high school kids, coming in and working. And they would come in and they would work, and they would wear their headphones and listen to music, and they would practice dance routines. I'm not kidding. They would practice dance routines together, and they would film them for social media.
And they did it on the clock. That was just, you would go back in the back, and they would be hanging out filming each other, doing dances.
And it happened a lot. It came to a point where, it kind of bugged me, not really, I didn't, I was not relying on them to get my job or my work done, they were not really involved in patient care, but it does it catches your eye when you're busting your butt and you go into the break room, and they're there, cooking a meal in the toaster oven, and What are you guys, what are we doing here?
And so I, I actually said something to one of the owners. I was like, hey, you're being too soft on the kennel kids. You're being, I mean, you're being too soft on them, man. They're, they're hiding in the back. They're, they're goofing off on social media and stuff like that.
And he really blew me off. And he said he said, they're, he said, don't worry about them, Andy. They're fine. They work hard. And I, so I let it go. I said my piece. I said it to him. If it was my business, I'd appreciate if somebody said something to me of man, might want to look at this.
But not my business, not my circus, not my monkeys. And so he said that and, and, and I said, okay, fine. And I, I let it go, but I've thought back to it a number of times. And of course, it makes me go, am I the bad guy? In the 1980s comedy movie, he's like, oh, those kids should be working harder.
I don't know that I was, but I think, and I've sort of had some inferences here. I think that what he was saying was, we probably, he probably paid those people minimum wage. And I think that he saw that flexibility and that time with their friends as part of their compensation. For more information, visit www.
FEMA. gov And so I think he was probably fine for them to film videos and bounce around and then when the staff called for them on the overhead, they showed up and they did it and that was how it worked and I sat with that for a while and I think what I saw was I think the conflict in this letter, which is this idea of it.
These people are clocked in and they're getting paid. They should be working. Versus we know what the expectations are and they know what the expectations are and they're going to hang out on the clock and wait to be called and that's fine. And I know that as the employer and I'm writing their paychecks and I'm fine with that arrangement.
Stephanie Goss: Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark: Then I think that that's got to be okay. You know what I mean? Then that's fine. It really comes down to what's the expectation. But that's when I was like, Oh, that's an entirely different way of looking at employees than how I have. And I think it's also fine to say, that's not how our vet assistants were treated.
And that's not how the front desk was treated. And that's not how anybody else was treated. But also, I suspect all those people were getting paid a different level than the young kennel attendants.
Stephanie Goss: And I think, so I think there's a couple of things in what you said to, to unpack. One is, I think the key point there is that understanding on all sides what the expectation is, right? So, you as an associate in the practice, you're working hard, you're busting your butt. It's not your business.
So you don't know what he has worked out with them. And so you say something, but he could have clearly worked out with them. Look, I don't, as long as the pets all have water, they're walked regularly, they're cleaned regularly, they, like whatever those things are, and we, you know?
we call on the overhead and you, and you're paged and you come.
Then the rest of your time is yours to do with it what you want, right? Like, that could have been a conversation that happened with them. If he has that clarity and they have that clarity, that's great. Where it becomes a problem is when there isn't the transparency across the board. And I think that happens in practices more often than not, right?
Where, to your point, it's kind of like the pay piece. There may be some benefits that one group gets, but if there's not transparency across the board, of course it's going to create drama when another group finds out what they're getting if they don't understand the why, right? And so I think that's, I think that's part of the solution and the process here is to figure out how do you actually communicate the expectations. Both, to both sides, immediately involved, but to the rest of the team as a whole.
Dr. Andy Roark: Totally. Yep. I agree with that. So it's, it is a part of it about, is about expectations. The other part here for me in Headspace is Phil Richmond, Dr. Phil Richmond says this really well. When he says when he has an emotional reaction when something makes him mad, the healthiest thing he can do is stop and say to himself, why am I reacting this way? I think that's a question I would put to our readers to say, I get it. I think I understand why, but why are we reacting this way? Is it about the lack of skills? Is it about this, the sort of a justice mindset of, if you're on the clock, you should be working for the company? Is it the fact that people at other clinics don't have this perk, and these people do have this perk, and there's an unfairness thing?
Dr. Andy Roark: Again, I
Stephanie Goss: Do you feel taken advantage of? Like, what is the underlying emotion?
Dr. Andy Roark: Exactly, but I think that that's really important from a Headspace standpoint to figure out what do you really need here and what's, what's driving this on your side. Because ultimately we need to put that flaming raging sword of justice down and it's hard to do that if we don't understand why we feel the need to pull it in the first place.
And so there's, there's that. I, so that's kind of that. I, I, those are, so those are sort of my, my, my big, Headspace here is bleeding into the action steps. But I think that's good for me, for Headspace.
Stephanie Goss: I agree with that. I think the bus trip to Camp Tough Love is definitely warranted. Like we've got to look at where you're at. And I love how you how you pointed out how Phil approaches that. Cause I think it's really healthy, right? Like asking ourselves the question, why do I feel like this?
And that's a question that only the writer can answer, but I think it's really important to sit with that because I think that's going to help. you figure out where you go from here and whether it's a productive path to walk down or not.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. And let me wrap up Headspace here by restating what I said, hopefully at the very beginning. I'm not saying that our medical director is wrong. I'm not saying like this could, is this totally valid? I mean, I think it's a totally valid thing to say is, no one else in the organization is getting paid to study on the clock.
And this person who's studying has got real holes in his or her clinical skills that are hurting our team. That's not a bad thought to have. That's not wrong. I think it's, I think most of it goes, yeah, it's totally, it's totally legit. Everything that we have laid out has been Trying to get the perspective of the other side in view and to start to get real strategic about what we're going to accomplish so I'm good with that for headspace.
Let's take a break and we'll come back and we'll get into action steps
Stephanie Goss: Sounds great.
Dr. Andy Roark: All right, so action steps here. It's easy–what are the sayings I've come back to recently a lot is the old environmentalist saying of think globally act locally right?
Stephanie Goss: Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark: So I think that it's okay to think in a global sense about what is fair and what does it mean to be on the clock and have those thoughts but ultimately the action that we take is not at a global level like I'm not making employees across the country change I am working with Sarah who is trying to pass her courses, her high school courses, college courses, that I am working with Sarah who is trying to study for her exams, and I need to see her as a person, understand what is important to me, understand what's important to the clinic, and then go and engage with her in a way that does not involve the flaming raging sort of justice.
Okay? And so the first thing that I want to do here Is relax the tensions. I'm going to do that in two ways. Number one, I'm going to take the time component off of this. Listen, this kennel assistant VA, whatever, they have been doing this for some time now. The building is not going to fall down. If it goes on for another six, eight, 12 weeks,
Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark: This is how it's been.
Stephanie Goss: Right. How is it going to make a difference if you change this today versus changing it two weeks from now, two months from now, end of the year?
Dr. Andy Roark: I mean, that's it. Yeah. End of the year. When, when the semester is over. It's not. There are some things. One of the things I've learned as a leader, I think I'm good at this. You always question if you're doing it right, but I think I'm good at this is, I have gotten to the place where I recognize mistakes I have made in my judgment.
And I have not grabbed the steering wheel and spun it to try to correct. I have taken the steering wheel, gently turned it, and rectified the mistake that I made over the next three months. You know? And that has gotten so much better. And been so much easier, and it has been so much better for people's trust in me, because my team does not feel like things are being snatched away from them.
They are being told that next year, we're not going to be able to do this anymore. So everybody just know that. And then we roll right on up, and I give them a reminder at the beginning of December. And then we change and everybody's okay. And there's maybe some grumbling, but it's not if I weighed in on the Wednesday and say, starting Thursday, there will be an organizational change that will affect all of you.
Stephanie Goss: It feels very, it does feel very reactive. And it also, when it's time bound like that, and it's urgent, it also is very easy, from a headspace perspective, assuming good intent on all sides, it's very easy for that to feel punitive, even if it's not, because it feels so abrupt.
Especially when something has been going on for a long time and that's the conversation, going back to what I said about the IRS, like that's the conversation that I have with manager peers all the time is well, how long have they been getting vet services for free at this clinic? And if they say, well, the owner has been doing it for the 20 years that I've been here, but I've, I know that we need to do this to be in compliance with the IRS.
Okay. That's not the best choice. If they've been doing something for 20 years and you want to roll up in and be like, sorry guys, we're going to change this tomorrow. There is no world where that doesn't feel punitive to somebody.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, yeah, that's
Stephanie Goss: And it, it's not that that's the way you intend it, but that's still the way they're going to feel.
Dr. Andy Roark: Of course they are. Imagine that you're the only person who smokes cigarettes in your practice. And then suddenly there's a policy about what is required for every person who smokes cigarettes in the practice. There's no world where you don't say, Hey! This is a hundred percent aimed at me because then you're the only one smoking cigarettes. Of course the smoking policy is aimed at you like it is and like you're going to take it personally.
It's the same thing. It's the same thing here. There's only one person studying for tests on the clock She's gonna catch on when the test plus studying policy has changed
Stephanie Goss: Well, and even if there's multiple, it still is going to feel punitive. You know, like that's just the way the human mind works,
Dr. Andy Roark: Well, I mean, especially if you talk to the person. This is the thing, is if you go and you say, Hey, I've noticed this, I'd like to make some changes, and da da da da da, and you talk to them, and then you change the policy they really feel like they're singled out.
And again, I get it, I'm not saying that changing the policy is wrong. This is 100 percent about how it's being perceived by the team. Yeah, I have no doubt they feel singled out. I totally get it. And the truth is we are making this policy adjustment because of this person. And so they're not wrong.
Anyway, it's, it's part of it's that. My, my big thing here as far as removing stress is one, to try to lengthen the timeline on this and say, this does not have to get fixed today. I agree that it needs to be corrected, but as soon as we lean back a little bit, we can make this happen much more smoothly.
And so that's sort of the big thing for me is, that's sort of my, my first action step is to take that constraint off of yourself.
Stephanie Goss: I think that's really smart and I think you also can add to that because you can, there can be things that are time bound, right? So like you, as you said, okay, is it, what is it going to hurt if we go another, you know, three weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks, whatever. If there are things that are life threatening level urgent, right?
Like we cannot have a patient on IV fluids where the pump is alarming and they're being ignored so that anyone can work on their school work. I don't think that there's any member of a team who cares about patients who wouldn't understand that rationalization and not, and be able to separate the personal feelings and the emotions from that.
So I do think that it is totally okay to, if you can, as, and it's hard I want to empathize with our writer because I feel like we've done a lot of pointing out, pointing the mirror in their direction and saying, maybe we pulled the flaming raging sword of justice a little fast, right? And that hurts.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's okay.
Stephanie Goss: And in order to fix it, if you can get to the space where you can recognize, okay, there are things I can do to fix this. If you can let yourself get even okay, you may not love the idea of continuing to let them do it, but if you can get okay with it and try and find the middle ground, it is also okay to put some parameters in place to say, okay, Mike, you're in the middle of your program.
To be honest, if I was in this person's shoes, I could even be talked into a year long or even a two long, two year long period if there were some other parameters put in place, right? If the thing that was really bothering me was the fact that pets were sitting in soiled kennels or they were, you know, the alarm was going off and they were being ignored or if there were things that for a patient care reason felt urgent, if you came to me and said, okay.
“Hey, look. I feel like maybe I went a little too fast and I want to apologize for that. I really, you know, I really want to try and come to a middle ground. Here's what I would like to do, right?” And then you told me, Hey, I would, I would like to, eventually we're going to have to get to a place where this is not a perk anymore.
That's, if that's the decision you make, fine. If you tell me what the timeline is, and you give me a little bit of, you throw me a bone, and I give a little that's what compromise is about, right? It's about the give and take, and can we come to this from that place, if you can get to that headspace, it's, you're going to have a much better outcome as a leader, and it's going to be much more palatable to, the team as well, if it feels like there is give and take, because although no one wants to be called a dictator, no one wants to be told, you know, you're I think you're the root of all evil.
If you come down on them and you say, it's, this is the way it's going to be. I understand where they're coming from. You know?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yep. I agree with that and that was on my on my list as well Is does this have to be all or none? Meaning are your two choices: this person studies and doesn't do their job or Studying is now banned fully and again, I don't think I don't think something being banned fully is a bad idea But does it have to be fully banned today?
And also I'm not convinced that you can't do anything today. I think the other part for me and again, this is sort of an action step headspace. But I think for the action step here as far as lowering the stakes to is I need to get curious and go Talk to me about what's going on with your classes. How much do you have left?
“What are you trying to do? What is your study schedule? What are you trying to accomplish? Because I want to I want to support you And I have some needs of things that need to get done in the practice and then maybe, maybe the arrangement can become, you can study, but only after these things are done Or, yeah, that, you can study after these requirements are met something like that.”
And that's fine. I would personally, I would take a position like that where I would say this is my immediate needs and then you can study around this and then know that you're not going to be able to study next semester. So we're going to let this ride till the end of the year. We'll get you through your fall exams,
Stephanie Goss: Current load.
Dr. Andy Roark: and your current load because again, it's quite possible this person committed to their case or their
Stephanie Goss: It's a class load.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, their case load, or their, what, class load, yeah their class load, based on the understanding that they would have time to work on it. And if you take that away from them, now they're hopelessly overloaded with classes. And again, they be paid to study? I don't, again, I don't know, but they made choices with the belief that they would be, and that belief was based on the fact that they were allowed to in the past.
And so I get it. Let's see if we can support them through the short term. And then this is one of the things we're going to correct over the long term. And so anyway get curious. Figure out if this can be somewhere between all and none. Think about an incremental phase out over time, let people know it's coming and then go from there.
Stephanie Goss: Mm
Dr. Andy Roark: The other alternative you have, and this might fit in with the conversation we said before, you can go forward and not really address the studying thing. If, and this goes back to, what are we really upset about? If it is, this person does not have the skills they're supposed to have.
You don't have to tell them Take the studying away from them to just say to them, your clinical skills are not where they need to be.
And this is the, we need to figure out a program that's going to get your clinical skills where they need to be in the next 12 weeks. Let's figure out what that looks like. And you don't have to take away the ability for her to study. You just give her the requirements of what it's going to take to continue to be there and to, and to meet the requirements for a job.
And maybe she can continue to study that. Maybe she can just get significantly more efficient in other areas. And now she's doing everything she was doing before. Plus she's meeting your standards. Plus she's still finding time to study. What do you care? You're paying her the same amount. She's doing the thing that she, that she wanted.
Now we all know that's probably not going to happen. There's probably going to be some sacrificing of study time to get these things done.
Stephanie Goss: I think it's that knowledge that it, that it is. Likely not to work out that way that makes people, that makes leaders tie those two things together. And this is where I want to say to our writer, like, you're not alone. Like Andy said, in the very beginning, this is a gopher trap we see coming because we've stepped in it.
And so, you're not alone in making that, that gut response to tie two and, two and two is equaling four in your brain. And in this scenario, and I think you're spot on, Andy, and if you approach it from a different perspective, and you let one thing set to the side, and you actually focus on what is the problem here. Is the problem that they're doing schoolwork, the root, like reading this, and again, we only hear one, see one side of the story, but reading this email, my thought was the problem is not the fact that they're doing schoolwork on the clock. The problem is that they don't have the skills that they need.
Those are two different problems, but it's the tying them together that as the team member who is involved immediately feels punitive.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah it's if I want my kids to spend less time on their cell phones, I have found it's much easier for me to sign them up for extracurriculars, take them to the swimming pool, yeah and, and have family movie night than it is to take their phone away. And like, They spend less time on their phone when we're on a hiking trip together.
And it's sort of like, I didn't take their phone away. I just gave them something else that we were doing that needed to get done. That doesn't lend itself to a phone. It's kind of the same thing for that. So anyway, I don't mean that to be manipulative. And I would go back to the whole thing of, maybe this person is really relying on this time because they thought they would have it from past precedent and I really don't want to screw them over. And at the same time, this is not a sustainable long term.
So anyway, I think hopefully that comes across as a little trip to Camp Tough Love. As far as the way that we sort of approach it and the decisions that we make about shutting down this thing that they perceive as a perk.
And then a shift in mindset over to what do I really feel this way? What do we really need to accomplish? Can we meet them in the middle? Can we phase this behavior out over time so that they know going into next semester They're not going to have study time and that's fine? They knew it going into the semester like can we do some things that are not going to cause them to panic?
But are going to take a little bit of time and make this problem just go away And I really do think if we can take those if we can take that mindset and we can take those softer steps We can gently take this little perk away from the employees in a way that, that is not going to be a big deal because the vast majority of your employees, they're not doing this.
They don't care. We're just going to, we can support this person out, close the door behind them and lock that door. And honestly, guys, that's the way a lot of business gets done and it will make you happier and it'll make your team happier. There have been a lot of things in my career that have not worked the way I wanted.
And instead of just shutting them down. I let them ride out until some created deadline. Whether it was the, the first of the summer, the end of the year, the Thanksgiving holiday, the next conference that we were putting on, and then we're not going to be doing this anymore after that. And a lot of times it's just better to let this annoyance go on.
Until a natural conclusion point and then end it in a way that everybody's cool with than it is to try to squash this annoyance and then deal with the collateral damage that comes from that.
Stephanie Goss: I love that and I agree with that and I want to offer, like, where I want to end is, I want to offer some food for thought on the opposite. On the opposite side of that argument because I think what you, you know, you talked in the beginning about the world has changed and employees showing up and doing 40 hours of work versus doing the job that needs to get done in 32 hours and being okay with that.
I think that's really important and really relevant. And I also think it's applicable here. When I think about our industry and I think about the changes. We need credentialed technicians, we need qualified, rounded credentialed technicians.
And so food for thought, just on the other side of the argument that I would offer is I know what it's like to be the manager who's trying to find a technician for years on end.
It's a really hard place to be in. And so most of us turn inwardly, right? Which is exactly what this practice is doing. They're like, Hey, we're going to grow it from within. So we're going to take our assistance and we're going to encourage those who want to go to school. And we're going to support them in ways that can look like them, paying for school or offering them the opportunity to do cases on the clock, whatever it is.
And I don't think that's inherently a bad thing. And I think as an industry, when I have talked to my peers as, and colleagues as a manager, there is this headspace as an industry that we look at it like. So negatively, like why would we allow them to do schoolwork on the clock?
Why would we create that environment? And I would actually argue that it is a way for us to help. It is a solution, not a what's the word I'm trying to say? Not a, not a negative, right? In the, in this, And if I, if I think about it and I think about my own practice, because that's how I used to feel like I, you know, I used to be that manager who, if my, myself included, went to tech school, if I left the practice, you know, within two years of working finishing my degree, then I would have had to pay my practice back.
And for a long time I did that and now my beliefs have radically shifted and I feel the way about this as well if we want to grow and develop. We know that our paraprofessional staff, most of, a lot of them are living, I won't say most, a lot of them are living paycheck to paycheck. A lot of them are vastly underpaid for the work that they do.
If we want to change that, we have to think about ways that we can impact that and make a big difference. And this is one of those ways that I have seen firsthand can make a big difference for team members if we can support them. Now, that's not to say. And please hear me when I say this, that's not to say that I don't still expect them to do their job.
Dr. Andy Roark: I heard Stephanie say that they get to sit at a desk and just do their school work and you’re going to pay them.
Stephanie Goss: No, no, that's not what I'm saying. And I do think that it's important to look at really being clear about those communications. And I think that's a step that we often miss. And thinking about what you said about the practice owner that you worked for. I love that.
the idea of a world, and I love it because this is a world in my own practice that I helped create, where I can have the conversation with the team members and the expectations are very clear. Here's the job I need you to perform. This is your first priority. And if we can accomplish this job, if you can have the skills that you need to be qualified for it, I have no problem with you spending, The extra time working on schoolwork within these parameters, right?
And it's such a, most of us think about it in an automatically just by default in a black and white thinking like, well, if I give them an inch, they're going to take a mile. And I think we have, I think that kind of mindset is very self damaging. I think we have to change that as an industry. And so on, I just want to put it out there because we talked a lot about, well, we can take this benefit away and that is one choice.
And it may be the applicable and the right choice to make in this practice. Again, we only see one side of the story that we get in the mailbag letter. And so I don't think there's anything wrong with doing what you said, Andy, and I agree with it. Like we can take it away. And if we do it, let's do it in a, in the way that we described.
And I just want to put it out there that there is another potential, which is maybe we create a world where we help provide more texts to an industry that desperately needs it by shifting our mindset as leaders about how we could approach a situation.
Dr. Andy Roark: I just, I think one of my, one of my fundamental beliefs, and I'll, I'll shut up after this, but one of my fundamental beliefs is there is no should in in, in any of this, in this life, there is no should
Stephanie Goss: Four letter
Dr. Andy Roark: It's “what do the two affected parties agree on?” Eyes wide open, clear expectations.
And so, that's what we do in our company. As I say, you know, you're remote, you work at home, I don't track your hours, and you have unlimited vacation. I'm going to be clear with you about what your salary is, I'm going to be clear with you about what the deadlines are that we have coming up, and we're going to talk about the workload that you have, and if I don't feel like you're producing enough work, I'm going to tell you that gently, not in a mean way, and if you feel like you're being overwhelmed with work and your salary is not supportive of the level of work that you have, that you're doing, I expect you to say that to me and let's keep working on it.
And as long as we can come to an agreement, we both feel good about, then this just works out. And it's the same thing. Am I opposed to having, I don't know, let's say a kennel technician that makes Let's, I'm just pulling numbers out of the air. That makes 12 an hour and gets to study on the clock instead of a kennel technician that makes 15 an hour and does not study on the clock at all.
No, I'm not because the 15 an hour person is generating more work at the end of the day than the person who is spending part of their day studying. Basically it's, it comes down to, if I believe that this person, you know, that I'm getting one extra hour of work from the kennel person who's not studying, then I'm going to try to compensate that person for that hour.
And the other person that may be clocked in the same amount of time, but they're not doing the same work as the person who's not studying. And there's that. And again, now we're getting pay scales and stuff. There's a million ways to look at this, and it doesn't, again, It doesn't matter about what should be, but it really comes down to what do both parties agree to that it's fair and it needs to be in balance for the rest of the team, there's.
It's not fair for one vet and the company to agree that Dr.Goss is going to make five times more money than all the other vets and they both agree to that. So that's it. It's there's some other parts of this, but anyway, it's a long way to go. There's a lot of gray here, but I hope we didn't come down too hard on the writer. I, again, I, I meant what I said at the beginning of, I laugh and I chuckle because I a hundred percent have been here.
I have lived this. I have had these thoughts. I have had sweaty palms about what people are doing with their times. And I, I get it. I totally get it. You gotta be careful and don't blow your face off here. By rushing in and ripping the wires out of the bomb that you see. It's nah sometimes we're gonna let this clock tick down for a while before we deal with it. And that's, that's okay.
Stephanie Goss: Yep, I love it.
Dr. Andy Roark: Alright, that's all I got!
Stephanie Goss: Have a great week everybody, take care! Dr. Andy Roark: See ya, everybody!
