This week on the podcast…
This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and special guest practice manager Maria Pirita break down the problem of what to do when one of your seasoned team members turns spicy! In this question from a conference attendee, we have a lead technician who is not doing the “menial” parts of her job and is being rude to other team members. How are we going to handle it? Let's get into this…
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss. You got a second to talk about GuardianVets?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. What do you want to talk about?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed because the phones never stop ringing. And I'm sure you hear from these people as well, our caseload is blowing up, and the doctors are busy, and the phones just don't stop.
Stephanie Goss:
They never stop. That is true story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip the switch and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk, and they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments and give them support, and it really is a godsend.
Stephanie Goss:
Pre-pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after-hours call help. But at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that they are offering help during the daytime as well, which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices because everybody is shorthanded. Everybody is drowning in phone calls. And so we talk about it, we've talked about GuardianVets a lot on the podcast and every time we do, we always get somebody who says, “What is that?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use some help on the phones or up at the front desk, check them out. It's guardianvets.com and if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So check it out, guardianvets.com.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey, everybody. I'm Dr. Andy Roark and this is the Uncharted Podcast. Man, it's been a while since I got to do that. Welcome, welcome, everybody. I am here with Maria Pirita today. We are breaking down how to coach the spicy tenured team member. What do you do when you've got somebody who's been on the team for some time? They may be a shift lead, a team lead, a department lead, and they're just not performing.
Maybe they're not doing menial tasks, they're not cleaning cages or cleaning up the surgery suite because they think it's beneath them. Maybe they're just grumbling, maybe they're just snapping at people, maybe they're not treating people in a way that that person feels respected or they're throwing their weight around a little bit. What do you do? How do you talk to that person? That's what this episode is all about. Guys, let's get into it.
Speaker 3:
And now the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey, and we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only Maria Pirita. Hello, my friend.
Maria Pirita:
Hello. How are you doing?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, I am so good. How are you doing?
Maria Pirita:
I am so good. We just got into Chicago, and we beat the blizzard, so I'm feeling great.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Like you raced to your little den and lit your fire, and then the snow came down outside and now you're toasty as a bug in a rug.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. I literally got hot cocoa, so now I'm just going to make my hot cocoa and watch the snowfall.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You are who I aspire to be at Christmas time. We did a workshop together, you and I, and it was like 50 doctors. And we couldn't get anything done because Maria has a Christmas tree that rotates and it was behind her, and so everyone was watching her Christmas tree just rotate, and there was like every three minutes someone would notice it and the chat would just blow up with, “I know.” And so you do Christmas really, really well. I have to say.
Maria Pirita:
I love Christmas. I've always loved everything about Christmas. My birthday's 10 days before Christmas, so I don't know if it's a mixture of both of them going together or the fact that my family always did it so big. That rotating base actually was a recommendation for my sister a long time ago. And then one time my base actually broke and I needed to go to get one, and all they had was the rotating one, so I had to get it, and it turned out to be a great purchase until we did the workshop and-
Dr. Andy Roark:
And shut it down.
Maria Pirita:
… we couldn't get through the workshop because everybody wanted to hear about the rotating base.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. The whole thing.
Maria Pirita:
It's available. It's a real thing.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The whole thing ground to a halt. Yeah. When this episode comes out, it'll be New Year. You're a big New Year person too that you go all in for 20 days.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. I love New Year's. Man, it's a lot of fun. I prepare a lot for New Year's. My husband and I have a great tradition where we make surf and turf steak and lobster dinner, and we write out goals and aspirations for the new year, and we light a fire. And then once midnight hits, we celebrate with all of these Latin traditions, which are crazy and out there, but I absolutely love all of them. Some of them, a lot of people know about like you wear red underwear if you want love in the new year, or you wear yellow underwear if you want money. You can put lentils in your wallet and that represents that you're going to spend your money well in the new year, and all these crazy things. We do all of them. So we put 12 grapes in our-
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes. You got multiple pairs of underwear.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. All at once. You got to want all of them. You got to wear all the underwear. We put 12 grapes in our pockets and you make a wish with each one. But my favorite one is that at midnight you take your suitcase, and you walk around the block with your suitcase and that represents that you're going to travel a lot in the new year. And last year was actually the first year that we did that. And I will say that this past year we went to Paris and Rome, and I got to go to Greenville for the conference, and we went to Indianapolis for work too. So I would say that it worked. So if you're trying to travel in the New Year at midnight, grab your suitcase, go walk around the block with your suitcase, and you'll probably travel is all I'm saying, unless it was just a fluke.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think some people can just stop the podcast right now. They're like, “I got what I needed for… Yep. I got what I needed.”
Maria Pirita:
Unless this comes out after New Year's, then it'll have them the next year.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And they're like, “Ah.” Going to have to put it on the calendar. Yeah. Oh, man. So for those who don't know you, you are a newly minted CVPM. Congratulations on your new certification.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. Thank you.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You work with us over at Uncharted, you're doing more and more of the lecturing and the lifting. And I've been so happy working with you, and I just enjoy the heck out of you.
Maria Pirita:
Oh, thank you.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so anyway, I want to talk to you about what we got. It wasn't the mail bag, we got it at a conference. Do you want to go ahead and break down what we're looking at?
Maria Pirita:
Yeah, actually. So we were at a conference in Indianapolis and this amazing practice manager, if you're listening, you are amazing, but she was telling us about a challenge that she's having and it's essentially that she has this tenured team member who's a little spicy, we'll say. She has been with the clinic for a really, really long time. Great skills, however, lately, she's been doing things like she's been not wanting to clean up after surgery because she thinks it might be beneath her, or she's just been a little bit spicier in the way that she talks to people. And what was crazy is we started talking about it and it turns out a lot of people were struggling with this challenge, and that's when we thought, “This would actually make a great podcast episode because there are definitely things that can be done.” And I've certainly been there. Have you been there?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, totally. I think we all were. I like the term here for spicy. This is one of the things I think that you do really well. It's like that's your word. And I think it's a healthy way to look at it to say, “Oh, well, this person's a bit spicy.” It's not that they're not aggressive or angry, but once we frame them that way, they take on a villainous personality and you say, “Well, they're spicy.” And I go, “I like that, I can work with spicy. Sometimes spice is okay.”
And so I like that you frame it that way. It also brings across a lot of times what the behavior with the attitude is. And so I just want to start upfront and say, “I like how you frame this question,” and by making this person framing them as spicy, I think you're already opening up a lot of good doors for us to get things done. I don't want to be told that I'm aggressive, I don't want to be told that I'm a bully. I don't want to be told that I'm hard to work with. But if you tell me I'm being a bit spicy today, I'm not going to take that particularly hard. I think language matters and how we frame things matters. And so I like how you set that up. Just open up.
Maria Pirita:
Thanks.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So yeah, I have a lot of ideas on this.
Maria Pirita:
I love the term spicy too because… Well, I think we started using it in clinic because when we became Fear Free, that was one of the big things that they taught you is try to stop using the word aggressive or mean when you're talking about patient because they're not, they're just fearful, stressed, or anxious. And so you changing your mindset there. So we adopted it and we started using it a lot, and one of my favorite things to say to people would be, “Ooh, that came out a little spicy. How can we add some sour cream?” And it became a hit because it'd be like, okay, it's not that you are a mean person. It is totally that it just came out spicy and sometimes we all wake up a little spicy and that's okay. Just get that done and done with some sour cream. That's it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I like that. I think that's part of building a good culture is setting it up where we can give each other feedback that's not catastrophic or devastating, that doesn't strike at who you are as a person. But yeah, it's a little thing. I always say one of the real tricks to giving people feedback is lowering the stakes, trying to make it so it's not a big deal for me to say, “Hey, when you said this, it had this impact that you didn't really anticipate. I need you to do that differently.” How do I make that not a big deal? Like, “Hey, I know you know this.” But whenever you say something that starts with, “Hey, you”, people get real defensive real fast, and I just want to make sure you get heard. And so “let's do that differently next time. Alright. Thanks, man.” And just try to make it so it doesn't matter.
And I think a lot of times we don't say anything when it doesn't matter, and then we wait until it does matter and then we have these high-stakes conversation. So anyway, just anything that just takes the edge off and it's just like, “Hey, man, this is okay. We're just going to break it down a couple notches, but also I need you do this differently for me. Thanks, man.” I think that that's just good feedback coaching headspace.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So speaking of headspace, let's get to headspace here. All right. Cool. So first, we start talking about this. I want to point something out in the question itself. And so one of the examples was, “Hey, this person's not cleaning up after surgery, things like that. She acts like maybe this is beneath her.” I would say, does she say that it's beneath her or is that the assumption that I, as the manager, and making about her, right?
Maria Pirita:
Absolutely.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Because one of the first things we want to try to do is assume noble intent, assume good intent. I don't want to be like, “Oh, she didn't do it.” That clearly means that she thinks she's better than this like, “I don't know what it means. I don't know why she's not doing it and neither do you.” So until we ask her, “Hey, I saw this thing didn't happen. It seems like it's starting to become a pattern. What's going on? What's the story?” That's straight up, those are the exact words I would use. “Hey, I see this, it seems like it's starting to become a pattern going on. Just what's the story here?” And then I'm going to shut up, and I'm going to let her tell me, but I don't want to try to assume what her intentions are. And she might be like, “That's not my job.”
And now I go, “Okay. Okay. I get that.” At least I understand now that she does not believe this is her job. That's not an assumption. That's what she told me. And then we can start to work on that. So yeah, I think we start off assuming good intent. It's our safe headspace, right?
Maria Pirita:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Can I sit next to this person? Can I smile at them? Don't give them the feedback when you are triggered. Just let it go for a day. The key is put it on your calendar. If you're triggered, you're like, “I can't talk to this person right now.” If you're me, I can't talk to this person right now and then tomorrow's not going to seem like that big a deal, and I really don't like conflict, and so I'm not going to do it tomorrow. And then after that it's going to disappear. It's not going to happen. And then we're going to do this again. So put on the calendar, be like, “All right. I'm going to talk to this person on, if I haven't talked to them by Thursday morning, we're going to talk on Thursday morning.”
But can you sit next to them? Can you smile? Are you assuming good intent? Have they been set up to fail? If she thinks this is not her job and it is her job, that's on me because I didn't communicate to her, “This is your job.” And so maybe she's been set up to fail, maybe our job descriptions are not what they should be. Maybe she didn't review her job description, maybe she didn't sign her job description. Maybe she hasn't gotten an evaluation on performance, reviewing her job description, whatever. Maybe she's been set up to fail.
And the last thing is the end result like, “What do I want?” And this is a big thing of like, look, I don't want her to apologize for not cleaning up the surgery suite. I don't care. I just want her to clean it up next time or do what she's supposed to do or come to an agreement with the other tech so that it gets done. But basically, I want it to get done. I want everybody to feel like they're being treated fairly. That's what I want. And so that's the end result I'm working towards.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. Absolutely. And one thing that I think is really important in that is when you're seeking to understand is that sometimes it could be so many other things as far as why a person is spicy. So it really is important to ask that question, how did this person even get here in the first place? And so having that discussion, you might find out this person might be frustrated from other things happening in the clinic. Perhaps she may need some change here or there. If she's a registered veterinary technician and she thinks maybe she should be doing more as a registered tech. How many of us have credentialed technicians that we're not utilizing to their fullest potential or treating them like assistants? And so the only way you're really going to figure out how this person got here is by having that conversation and, like you said, seeking to understand.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Sometimes these people get set up to get caught. Sometimes they're just not as savvy as the people who are really doing the dirty stuff. I hate to compare it to my kids, but it was like with my kids. My older one could just tweak my younger child so that my younger child would go off, and then everyone would look at the younger child. And it didn't take long as a parent before you realize, you're like, “Okay. Hey, older kid, I know that you are the one who caused this problem.” And you put our younger kid in a position where they're going to get in trouble. And sometimes that happens with the staff where the person who gets mad is not the person at fault, they're the person who's reacting and they're probably not reacting appropriately or else they would've done this another way. But sometimes they're reacting inappropriately to something that's not fair or just something else where somebody else has screwed them over. And that's again, that's why you just got to ask the question.
The other thing is they specifically said this is a tenured person. And so there's a couple different types of problems that come up with tenured staff that are less likely to come up with younger staff. This is broad generalities, but to me the term tenured, matters. When there's certain types of behaviors that we get, it's often they're power play behaviors of, “That's not my job, that's someone else's job.” So just some of that stuff. But the other thing is when you have tenured staff members and they're having patterns of behavior, they didn't get that way overnight. It's like you hired this person and then you were surprised that they acted this way. They've been around for a long time. So my question is, what has changed? Has this been a slow steady creep or is this something where there's something going on that has changed their behavior?
The other thing is if they're tenured, they've conceivably had a history of being successful in your practice. And I think that that's something that we can lean on. So we talk about headspace, we go, “Well, this person's been here a long time, why is this becoming an issue now?” And again, I do find it's helpful for me when I can assume responsibility and say, “Well, I've been her boss for some time and this creep has happened on my watch and I haven't corrected it.” So I got to look at myself and say, “Where did I miss a trick?” And that's just a healthy headspace to get into, make you really effective when you go and talk to the person. So that's it too.
I asked myself questions a lot about burnout and fatigue. When I have people who are tenured, they've been doing this a long time, is this person burned out? Are they just done? Is this just a general, not about work, it's just about life or things like that? Is there something else going on with them? Those are all things I'm looking for and trying to figure out, again, what is the underlying thing? Is it just straight up, “I don't want to clean up the surgery suite”? Or is it, “I'm tired, I don't see a future for myself here. I don't feel like I'm appreciated, I don't feel like I'm respected”? Those things matter.
And I'm not saying the person is right, and we may disagree. Sometimes people say, “I don't feel appreciated.” And sometimes that's valid and sometimes it's not. And usually, the truth is somewhere in the middle where they should be appreciated for some things that they do. And there's some other things that maybe they don't do that they should do. It's always a mixed bag. It's always shades of gray with people. But I'm just trying to get down into their psyche of where are they coming from and what's the real issue?
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. And I think sometimes as practice managers too, we're putting ourselves in this position where we think, “Oh, this person has great skills. They've been here a really long time. I'm afraid of losing them. So then we fail to have some of the conversations that we should have.” So another question that I would ask myself is, how often has she gotten away with this without us discussing it over and over again to the point where she thinks that this is now how it should be?
Or in some cases, they try to push buttons… Not push buttons. That's a bad way of saying it. But they try to see what they can get away with because they themselves know they're high tech skills. They know that they have the ability to draw blood, and drop catheters, and they can be in surgery, and they can do all of these great things. So there is something, as a practice manager, you have to ask yourself, “How often has this been happening? Did this become a pattern and I didn't say it so now it has become the norm?” And getting into that space mentally before you have these conversations.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree with that. And I think the other thing we want to think about with a tenured team member is where do they want to go and what do they want to see in the future? And a lot of times I feel like these spicy team member, tenured team member things, they come from a place from where this person topped out, and they don't really know where they want to go in the future, or what they're going to do, or what's going to be different. So they're like, “I'm the head surgery tech and I don't want to be the practice manager or there's already a practice manager and there's not space for me. And so here I am, but I'm tired of this, but I don't really know where I want to go. And so I'm just generally at a loss for who I am and where I'm going.”
And I think that this starts to really unlock the key for me with dealing with tenured, more senior people. This person has climbed up to a place where let's say their career path may be a bit hazy in the future or they topped out in what they can do, and if they're burning out because of that, if they're bored because of that, if they're just like, “No, no, I don't see myself in the future, so I'm just going to do what I want to do right now.” That's a vision problem. It's a motivation problem. It's a vision problem. And so again, it starts we try to figure out, “Where's this person coming from? What's driving this? Is it that they don't know where they're going?” And you can ask those questions like, “Where do you want to go in next year?”
We just did with our team. Maria and I were talking and the team was there, but I was basically like, “What's your development goal for 2023? What do you want to be? What do you want to learn? How do you want to grow?” You can do that professionally. I want to do it professionally but also personally. And so just like Maria's walking around the block with her suitcase because she wants to travel. I want to know where people want to go. It's not something to hold people to, but I ask people that and now it's a great time to say, “Hey, it's the new year. Where do you want to go in the next year? How do you want to grow? How do you want to develop?” And ask them, and then when they say that, try to figure out how to get them there, how to keep growing. There's a lot more latitudes for people to grow in that medicine than we give credence to.
For example, we're like, “We have a vet assistants, and we have vet techs, and then we have lead vet techs, and that's the end of the story.” And I'm like, “No, it's not.” There's so many different subjects that we can expand to. There's so much expertise. There's credentialing, advanced credentialing, there's technician specialists, there's management credits, there's leadership opportunities, there's communication things, there's workshops, there's skill workshops, there's all these things that they can do. You can spend years getting great at dentistry, and then just roll off of that into anesthesia, and roll off of that into pain management, and into low-stress handling, into fear free. And you can work your whole career learning and growing and learning and growing. But if you think your whole path is assistant vet tech, head vet tech, that's it. That's a very short, stunted path that leads to a lot of frustration.
And so one of the big things is where do these people want to go, and can they see themselves in the future being developed, and do they feel like they're moving towards something greater? And if you can't make them see that, a lot of times you can't coach them very well. And so anyway, when we start thinking about senior people, do they see the vision for the future? Do they see where they can go? Do they see how they can grow? Are they engaged with that vision? And if the answer is no, then from a headspace standpoint, I need to figure that out because this person's going to be consistently hard to manage and they're going to be consistently hard to motivate if I can't make them see a future where they are better and more developed than they are right now.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah, Andy, and I'm so glad you said that because it actually reminds me of a spicy team member who I had when I was a practice manager. And she was amazing. She had amazing skills, the kind that you could always trust to hit the vein or drop the catheter, but she did have a bit of a spiciness around, especially around new people. It seemed like she would get frustrated during the training. So it was one of the situations where I looked at her and I was like, “Man, she could go so far. We just have to work on that one thing.” So I remember sitting down with her and having this discussion and we started on that, and on that topic is development. I asked her, “Where do you see yourself?” And she said, “Actually, I have been thinking about that a lot.” She was a veterinary assistant at the time. She's like, “I think I want to go into CVT school. And I also think that the treatment manager position looks really great.” Treatment manager was taking care of the hospitalized patients, right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Maria Pirita:
And so I was like, “Okay. That sounds awesome. Yeah. Those are definitely areas we could talk about going.” And as we were discussing the treatment manager role, we got into discussing training. And so it was a perfect opportunity for me to talk to her about, “Well, I've noticed you can get a little spicy around new people. And so if we want to go down that path, there's things that we should work on there, but that's totally normal. We can work on those things. There are tons of leadership webinars that we can talk about books and bottom line, nobody became a leader overnight. And so this is great that this is the route you want to go in.” And so she said, “I know what you're talking about. The issue is that I never notice when I'm doing it until it's too late.” And I said, “I get that. I grew up around siblings, so I have a sassiness to me.” Andy, I'm sure you've seen it at conferences and whatnot, that it can happen to anyone.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You have more than a sassiness to you, just for people who don't know. You have amazing sass. I'm going to stop you right here because this is important. Maria and I were having dinner and we were at Tupelo Honey restaurant.
Maria Pirita:
Oh, no.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And she was looking at her straw. She was like, “I think the straw is made of honey.” And I was like, “I don't think that's a thing.” And she was like, “No, I'm pretty sure this is an organic straw made of honey.” And I looked and there was another straw on the table and it had the wrapper on it. And I picked it up, and it said, I read it out loud, I was like, “Made from 100% pure agave.” And Maria goes, “Who's laughing now?”
Maria Pirita:
It still wasn't honey, guys.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But that's the same thing. But you were like, “It's organic, it counts. Who's laughing now, Roark?”
Maria Pirita:
It's close enough.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. It's close enough. And I will say, I learned a couple days later, there's a store that sells honey products in Greenville. I looked in there, I was like, “Do you have straws?” And they were like, “Yes, we do.” I was like, “Oh, she could have been right.” But then I thought when they were like, “Yes, we do.” I was like, “Who's laughing now?”
Maria Pirita:
Who's laughing now?
Dr. Andy Roark:
[inaudible 00:25:13]. It's not a little bit of sass. It's a pretty defining characteristic. I love it, but let's not downplay it.
Maria Pirita:
So that's exactly what I was talking about. When I was talking to her about it, I said, “Yeah, I have sass too.” It's a matter of where to use it, and we were out at dinner in this example. So that's when my sass comes out is because I'm not working. I got it, but it's also… Obviously, I didn't talk to her about that because it hadn't happened yet.
But when I was talking to this team member, I basically told her it happens. It happens to all of us. It happens to me. And so I asked her, “What's a good system that you think would work for us to help you in this journey?” And she said, “Well, actually, if you could just point it out when you see it, if there could be a signal?” And I said, “Yeah. Absolutely.” So we decided that I would give her this eye contact and make the peace sign. Eventually, I didn't even need to make this peace sign with my hands. The number two, looks like a two. But I got to the point where I didn't even have to, I would just look over when I heard it, and you could hear her going back in herself, the way she was talking and try to formulate it a different way. And that helped a lot.
And we also talked about leadership as a whole and what kind of resources were available to her and giving her the time to do some of those and some recommendations on books. And I still remember she came to me so excited one time, she's like, “Hey, I spent this weekend reading this book that you recommended. I think it really helped me a lot.” And I will say that there was a noticeable improvement in her because she was striving towards this goal of becoming a manager and a leader because obviously, she had great assistant skills. She had done so much there that she was ready to move up to that next level. And putting in, not only giving her the resources, but also acknowledging that there was this area that we could work on helped tremendously.
To this day, she's still going strong in her position as treatment manager, and she's going to school still for her CVT, and she's loving it. And it's definitely something that I love seeing in people because they got to have that strive to want that, and she had it, and she did it. And big props to her. I hope she listens to this episode one day.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Okay. I love that story, and it's awesome. And I want to break it down step by step into action. So let's pause for a second here. Let's take a break and then we'll come back, and I want to run back through that story and just tell you what I love about it because that's going to… I think we should use that story to frame the action steps because that's [inaudible 00:27:50] with us how you do it, you crushed.
Hey, guys, I just want to hop in really quick and give a quick plug. The Uncharted Veterinary Conference is coming in April. Guys, I founded the Uncharted Veterinary Conference in 2017. It is a one-of-a-kind conference. It is all about business. It is about internal communications working effectively inside your practice if you're a leader. That means you can be a medical director. It means you can be an associate vet who really wants to work well with your technicians. It means you can be a head technician, a head CSR, you can be a practice owner, practice manager, multi-site manager, multi-site medical director. We work with a lot of those people. This is all about building systems, setting expectations to work effectively with your people.
Guys, Uncharted is a pure mentorship conference. That means that we come together and there is a lot of discussion. We create a significant percentage of the schedule, the agenda at the event, which means we are going to talk about the things that you are interested in. It is always, as I said, business communication focused, but a lot of freedom inside that to make sure that you get to talk about what you want to talk about. We really prioritize people being able to have one-on-one conversations, to pick people's brains, to get advice from people who have wrestled with the problems that they are currently wrestling with. We make all that stuff happen. If you want to come to a conference where you do not sit and get lectured at, but you work on your own practice, your own challenges, your own growth and development, that's what Uncharted is. Take a chance, give us a look, come and check it out. It is in April. I'll put a link in the show notes for registration, ask anybody who's been, it's something special. All right. Let's get back into this episode.
Okay. Let's get back into this. So you just told the story, I love it. I want to break down some things that I see in the story when you were talking about coaching this person. Number one, the first thing you did, which is absolutely amazing, I love it, is you framed your feedback not as corrective, not as like, “Hey, you really screwed this up and we need to go through, and look at what you did, and you need to apologize.” It wasn't corrective feedback, it wasn't, “I want you to own your mistake.” You 100% were like, “Where do you want to go?” And you got a picture of where she was going, and then you framed your feedback as developmental feedback. This is how we want to get there.
And so especially with your tenured team members, if they've been around a long time, if they're a shift lead, a department lead, stuff like that, they may not take just straight up, “Hey, you messed this up” feedback very well. They can feel like they're being taken down a peg. Really, really dislike that. Those people tend to respond better, in my experience, to developmental feedback of, “I see you, I see your skills, I want to talk about how we're going to grow you and where you go from here and these are the changes you're going to need to make to get there.” And so I think that was just a textbook lesson and how you give developmental feedback and figure out what people care about.
The one thing that the tech had going for her, which I think is really, really important, it's just a self-awareness when she's like, “Yeah. I do that. My thing is I don't realize it until it's over.” I go, man, self-awareness is an underutilized, underappreciated characteristic for people to have. And then the last thing is you talked to her, you came up with a plan about how you were going to help her, and then you were there to catch her in the moment like, “I'll give you the sign,” but you were there to give her the feedback. And when you're like, “I didn't have to give the sign anymore,” probably just the fact that you were there was enough for her to be like, “You are a sign of, ‘Oh yeah, I'm trying to do my best or I'm trying to do better.'” So I don't know. When I lay that down, do you agree with that or are there other pieces to it that you think should be called on?
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I agree with all of that. I think it's interesting. I would talk about the sign and just being there because I think we forget that sometimes with sass or with spiciness, coming from an expert in it, it does take the habit. It's a habit.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It is a habit. Yeah.
Maria Pirita:
It is a habit. You have to break a habit in order to be a better leader. And it's something that obviously, being a leader myself, we had to get over that, but it's going to take time to break a habit. And so the other part to that is being able to give them the time to do that but also the follow-up. When we're talking about… In this example, following up later on within the 30, 60, 90-day mark, whatever you decide to do on, and giving them feedback that, “I see you working on this and it's going great. Keep up the good work.” Or seeing, making sure that we don't just talk about it once and then forgetting about it, but also going back, giving that feedback, and talking about it again later on.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. How do you get tenured team members to tell you what their goals are when they don't know what their goals are? So let me ask you that.
Maria Pirita:
That's a really good question because-
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's hard.
Maria Pirita:
It is hard. It's hard and sometimes they need time to think about it themselves too because they haven't sat down and thought about it themselves to say, “This is exactly where I want to go.” And a lot of times, they don't even know of the possibilities that are out there. You said it yourself, we put them in veterinary assistant, certified tech, practice manager, and there's all these other linear possibilities. Unless we're constantly talking about these things, they're not going to know about them. So if I have a technician or a veterinary assistant that's like, “I don't really know where I want to go next.” I think the most valuable thing you can do be like, “Yeah. Okay. Well, take some time to think about that. Here is a list of just ideas and see which one you feel the most passionate about and think about it in the next couple of weeks, and we'll revisit this conversation in a couple of weeks.”
Because in that time they're going to be like, “Oh, I noticed that I really like behavior, and Fear Free is really important to me, and I realized that I want to do perhaps do Fear Free because I want to become a Fear Free certified professional.” The other thing too is telling them what they're good at. Andy, you're really good at that. You're really good at telling people, “Hey, I noticed that you're really good at this and so would you ever consider doing this or…” Maybe you should talk, and say how you do it because you do it so much better.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No. Well, thank you for saying that. I think that's a good… what's worked well for me is to look at people from the outside because you can see people more clearly than they can see themselves. And we tend to like the things that we're good at. And so if you see somebody who's crushing a thing, you should tell them, “You crushed this thing.” And it's amazing to me, in my life, how many people will be just fantastic at dentistry. They'll just be great at it. And you say, “Well, what do you want to work on? What do you want to grow?” And they're like, “I don't know.” And you go, “Well, I notice you're really good at dentistry.” And they're like, “Really?” I'm like, “Yeah.” And I don't know if their self-confidence doesn't let them believe that they're good at dentistry. They needed some random shmo on the outside to tell them that they're good. I don't know.
But I have found again and again that when I see somebody, they're just doing something that's obviously good at, if I just say, “Hey, you know what, I think you're really good at that. Not like you have to do this, but I'll tell you what I think you're good at. I see you doing these things.” And two things happened. Number one, they get some clarity, and they go, “Well, now that this has been validated, I'm going to own the fact that, yeah, I'm good at these things.”
And the other thing is they rise. They rise to that even more. So if I say, Maria, one of the things that you are really good at is you are a wonderful communicator in how you do developmental feedback, you'll do more of that in my experience. You'll be more ready to do it and more likely to practice and just lean into that skill, and then you really get better at it. And it's just this weird self-fulfilling prophecy when you tell people what they're good at. So thank you for saying that. I do try to call it out, but I'm always amazed by how powerful it seems to be when you just tell people what they're good at. I love the idea of just having people pay attention.
One of the questions that I ask that seems to help a lot is, “What do you love the most about your job?” Just framing it that way. Not what do you want to do, but what do you love the most? And then or I'll ask them like, “Hey, I want you to think about the last couple of weeks. What was the best day that you had? Just tell me what the best day was or squish the last two or three weeks together and make me an imaginary best day. What does the best day look like for you?” And a lot of times they'll tell you what they want to do and they want to… You say, “What do you want to do?” And then, “I don't know.” “Tell me what the best day at the practice looks like though.” “Well, I come in and I hit the dentistry table right off the bat.” I'm like, “Okay.” Not now.
Maria Pirita:
Well, there it is.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. There it is. But it's funny, and we've all had the experiences where someone asks you a question in one way and I got no answer. You ask me another way and I'm like, “Oh, well, here's the obvious answer.” And so we play the role of therapist in that way of being like, “Hey, I'm trying to tease out of you, what do you like, what makes you happy? What makes you excited to come to work?” And you pair that with the idea of giving them some time to think about it in the coming days. “I think you've really got something,” and then you tell them what you think that they're good at and the skills that you are impressed by them. I like to use the words to say, “You know what I most admire about you is,” or, “The skills that you have that I try to emulate are…” And boy, people really are flattered when you say that. I only say if it's true.
But people are not used to hearing the things when you say, “You know what I admire about you,” or, “What I try to emulate that you do really well is this.” That's just, man, that's powerful feedback. And you make people feel really seen and really appreciated. And again, especially for your tenured people, your upper-level people, that stuff hits them pretty hard and it gets their attention, and it makes them feel like they're doing something that people notice. So those approaches have worked well for me. So I like that stuff a lot. So I think that's a good way of trying to tease these things out of it and then coach them about where they're going. What do you do, Maria, when we don't get traction? We have these conversations and we've got this tenured person, and we talk to them and we're doing the 30, 60, 90 follow-up. What does that look like when the bar is not moving?
Maria Pirita:
I think that that's when you've got to revisit your own policies and protocols on what the next steps are. And as much as we all hate it as managers, none of us ever wants to let anyone go. I get that and then there's anxiety in that, but sometimes you do have somebody that may not be the appropriate fit for your clinic, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe their heart is set on becoming an ultrasound specialist and you don't have ultrasound in your practice.
You have to sit down with that scenario and really lay it out because at the end of the day, if you do have somebody that's a little too spicy, it's going to affect your clinic. It's going to bring down the tone. Your other team members are going to become resentful. “How come she never cleans the surgery suite? And we always have to clean the surgery suite.” And then you have really key valuable players that may quit just because you're trying to hold on to one player that may have the skills but may not have the tone that you need for your clinic. So those become a little bit harder, but it's a matter of what the disciplinary actions are at your clinic and following through with those because if you don't, it's just going to continue to affect your clinic, unfortunately.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. No, I think you're right. I think you're smart too. You got to look at the ripple effects. At some point, it's not about the surgery suite not getting cleaned, it's about the fact that the other techs are going to fold if they have to clean up this mess again while this other person refuses to do their part. At some point, it becomes this thing about fairness of this, “We're being treated unfairly because this person's getting preferential treatment.” And it's not about the surgery suite not getting cleaned, it's about, “I'm being disrespected, and I'm being forced to do this and management is not supporting me, and they're allowing this to happen.” And so it's much, much, much more than the surgery suite not getting cleaned. It's a cultural problem that's impacting other members of the team. So a lot of management is picking your poison.
All right. How do you want to struggle? How do you want to suffer? Do you want to struggle and suffer putting up with this person who won't clean the surgery suite, or do you want to put up and struggle with not having that person on board? And I go, “Well, it depends on how much that person is affecting the rest of the team to make that decision.” The last part too is, and it's hard to hear, but I always got to put it back on the table, is people change and life comes in phases. And sometimes people are done. Sometimes they've done the vet tech thing for 10 years, and they're just done. And maybe it correlates with them starting a family. Maybe it correlates with their kids going off to school and their life is just changing or going off to college, maybe their kids moved away. Maybe it has nothing to do with kids, Andy.
Maybe it's just their spouse has a new job and she's wildly fulfilled with the job and this person is realizing, “Hey, I've fallen out of love with this, and I want to be in love with something.” And you can't do much about that. People just change. And so I try to remind managers and leaders and owners that sometimes people are going to leave, and it's not about you, it's just about them and what's going on in their lives and what they want. And I don't think any of us really think that we're going to make a job that people are going to spend their whole lives in. You know what I mean?
Maria Pirita:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And if they leave that's because we failed them. But man, it feels that way sometimes. And so sometimes it's just good just to call it out and go, “Sometimes people outgrow your clinics, sometimes they outgrow the job that they have. Sometimes they just want to change.” And that's not failure. But if they've outgrown your clinic and they've checked out, but they're still showing up, cashing a paycheck, and they're causing headaches for other people, that's not okay. We're not going to do that.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. Absolutely. I agree.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Cool. Well, I think that's all I got. Have you got anything else to add to this?
Maria Pirita:
No, I don't think so. Other than I hope we see you all in April. Actually, we have Practice Manager Summit coming out.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah, the April conference. Yeah. Talk about the Practice Manager Summit. You're speaking at that.
Maria Pirita:
I am speaking. I'm so excited. I have a great workshop lined up for you, guys, on one-on-ones, which actually leads to this episode really well because we're going to talk about one-on-ones, how to make them work for you and how to make time for them because they can be very, very time-consuming. And I think that a lot of us could be having them more often, but we don't because we're like, “Where do you find the time?” And so I have a lot of great information for you, guys. And I think that's something that you could work with these spicy tenured team members. After all, that's where we can find out a lot about their development and what they want for the future. So that's exciting. That's coming up here soon.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. It's March 22nd is the Uncharted Practice Manager Summit is a virtual event. Anybody's welcome to attend but it is 100% targeted at practice managers. Registration is opening up very, very soon. You can find more at unchartedvet.com. All right. Cool. So thanks for running through everything with me, Maria. Guys, thanks for tuning in. I hope this was helpful and we'll see you guys next week.
And that is our episode. Guys, I hope you enjoyed, I hope you got something out of it. Thanks to Maria for being here. Gang, as always, if you got something out of the episode, if you enjoyed it, share with your friends, help us spread the word, help us get the Uncharted gospel out into the world to light people's lives, or just write us a review on Apple or wherever you get your podcast, that's also a thing you can do. Anyway, guys, enough silliness. Take care of yourselves. I'll talk to you later on.
