This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…
What happens if there is a veterinarian on the team who you are friendly with but who isn't a cultural fit for the team and you decide it is time to part ways? This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are tackling an international mailbag letter from a practice owner who is struggling with a lot of change in their practice. They have a new manager, they lost a veterinarian who was a partner in the practice suddenly and there is a veterinarian that is a part of the team who just does not seem to always play well with others. In particular, their behaviors and attitudes towards the practice owner are challenging to say the least. This practice owner is concerned that since the team sees them being friendly or at least neutral in their behaviors/interactions with this vet, they will be shocked and there may be collateral damage with the team if they choose to let this vet go. Let’s get into this…
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. So this week on the podcast, Andy and I are tackling a mailbag question from an international listener, which just really, really excites me. I love hearing from all of our listeners, but it was definitely a nerdy moment for me when we got our first international mailbag question. It was just so awesome. Thank you for writing in. And I'm excited to tackle this one because we had a practice owner reach out and say, “Hey, I am struggling with a veterinarian on my team. I don't feel like they're a cultural fit and I probably need to let them go, but I'm really concerned about the rest of the team not seeing it coming. In fact, I think they're going to be kind of blindsided, and I want to know how do I avoid that.” So this one was super fun. Let's get into it, shall we?
Announcer:
And now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie, taken by surprise, Goss. Is that a song? I don't know.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it. How's it going, Andy?
Dr. Andy Roark:
And Stephanie, surprise, Goss!
Stephanie Goss:
Surprise! Surprise! It's just that kind of day.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
How's it going?
Dr. Andy Roark:
It is good.
Stephanie Goss:
Good.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, things are rolling along here. Super busy. Wrapped up the school year. Getting kids out the door to their various camps, improv comedy camp for the kids coming up right around the corner.
Stephanie Goss:
How fun.
Dr. Andy Roark:
A half day of silliness.
Stephanie Goss:
How fun.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, yeah. It's going to be fun.
Stephanie Goss:
Good. Good, good, good.
Dr. Andy Roark:
How about you?
Stephanie Goss:
Good, good. We're getting ready to start summer, even though it's not summer here yet. We're getting ready to head out. And the kids and I spend time with family over the summer, so I'm super excited about that. I'm excited because I am doing my very first unplugging, officially.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh!
Stephanie Goss:
I know. I'm very excited. So Eric Garcia is a dear friend of both you and I's, and he and I have been nerding out about this for quite some time, how after he and I very first met I sat in one of his lectures about unplugging. This was years ago. And my palms were literally sweating, not touching my phone the whole time that he was talking. So we've talked about it since, and I am definitely a workaholic, and so this is going to be a challenge. But I'm really excited, and he and I are actually going to nerd out and do a podcast because Tyler, on our team, is also doing some unplugged officially this summer. And we're both doing a week, and so we're going to do a podcast I think altogether, me, Tyler and Eric, and talk about the experience and about unplugging in general. But I'm very nervous, anxiously excited. And the kids and I leave for that trip this weekend, so there's tons to get ready and get done before we head out.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'll be interested to see how it goes.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I have friends who go and do meditation retreats.
Stephanie Goss:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark:
Have you heard about these? People that are, like… And they're like, “Yeah, I go for 10 days.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I don't speak for 10 days. And it's so calming and relaxing.” And then my first thought is like, “Wow.” And they're like, “Yeah, you have such clarity of thought.” And I'm like, “Wow.” And then I look at my wife and I'm like, “I think I'm going to go and sit for 10 days and not speak to anyone.” And she just looked at me until I realized how dumb that is. And then I am like, “I can't make it.” I can't make it eight minutes without expressing myself to someone. And I'm like, “Oh…” So I have come as far as actually looking at the meditation retreat, and I'm like, “Maybe just seven days. Just seven.” And finally I'm like, “This is so dumb.” I can't walk the dog a mile without calling someone and talking to them on my headphones.
Stephanie Goss:
It is true. If you know Andy and he is in your life, we get calls one of two ways, Andy's outside gardening and he needs someone to talk to or he's walking the dog and he needs someone to talk to.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I can't garden without a friend.
Stephanie Goss:
Or he's driving home from the clinic.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Who gardens without a friend? I go to the bathroom in the clinic and text people memes. I'm like, “Ah.” People know when I've taken a bathroom break because they get a bunch of Instagram shares and they're like, “Ah, that's where Andy is.”
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, gosh. It's so funny. Anyway, so yeah. So the craziness this summer is about to start. I am excited. I've been stair stepping my way up to it over this last year and it'll be interesting one way or the other.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I have argued with Eric about this. So Eric Garcia, who I love to pieces, Eric Garcia is like, “Yeah, you should unplug for a week.” And I'm like, “That's ridiculous, Eric.” You should unplug for three to five hours every day. That's what I think. That's the Andy Roark approach.
Stephanie Goss:
I don't think either of you is wrong.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think one of us is wrong, and it's Eric Garcia. I'm just kidding. Everybody's got their own thing.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Everyone's got their own thing. And it's not wrong.
Stephanie Goss:
I will say, I have therapy lined up for when I get back so that I can work through my emotions about it. I'm planning, but I am excited. And we're going to be off the grid. It's going to be fun.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I expect to get postcards from you, and the first postcard will come and it'll be a postcard, because you're offline, and it will say, “Andy, it's my first day.”
Stephanie Goss:
“Come help.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
“I'm pretty nervous. This is hard.” Then in the third day, it'll be like, “It's day three and I'm feeling really great.” And by day five, you'll be like, “Help me, God. Please mail me a cell phone at the vacation retreat where I am because I can't make it.”
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, gosh. Anyways-
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's what I think. You're going to be sending emails by carrier pigeon. You're going to 100% tie little notes to bird legs and be like, “Take this to Idex.” And you'll send it away like that.
Stephanie Goss:
Maybe. I am super excited about this episode for a variety of reasons. But the first is this came through the mailbag from an international listener, which was really exciting to me. It's funny because we get statistics on the podcast and we have seen that we have international listeners, but I, honestly, every time you and our sound editor Dustin shared it with me, I'm always like, “There's something wrong with the internet. Nobody in other countries could be listening to us.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
You're like, “That's a bot.”
Stephanie Goss:
It's a bot. But this one came to someone who is listening to us in France, which was really exciting. And so this is from a practice owner and they are really struggling with some staff. So they have been in a partnership in practice and have recently acquired the practice in whole because their partner had to bow out kind of unexpectedly and prematurely, and so the practice has gone through a lot of really rapid growth and organizational changes. So they've lost a partner, now they have a new practice manager. Which they're managing everything, they're excited about the new practice manager coming on board, but the practice owner is really struggling because while they have this new manager who's trying to get their feet under them and get to know the team, they have a doctor on the team that they are really struggling with.
Stephanie Goss:
And so they said that this veterinarian is very skilled, but a very poor fit, in their opinion. There's some gossiping and some pitting the texts and staff against other doctors and against the practice owner, and some things culturally that just seem very negative and doesn't seem like they're very happy. And they gave us some information and some background on this person. I'm going to censor a lot of it only because I think that a lot of what we're going to talk about today doesn't matter who the person is, and so I don't necessarily want to include some of that.
Stephanie Goss:
But what this owner is really struggling with is that they are cordial towards this person and they have a good working relationship, and so they're very worried that if they take this person that they feel like is a very poor fit for the team and they let them go and part ways, the team won't see it coming. And so they are very worried about what will happen. If they let them go, will there be a lot of collateral damage, will some of the team leave. And they're worried because they have this new manager, are they setting them up for failure? But they're not in the clinic, it's a mixed animal practice so and so they've got some with farm animals doing mixed animal and some who are in the small animal side. And so they're worried if they can't be in all places at all times, how do they manage this? And is it the right thing to let a vet go who feels like a poor fit? If the team doesn't know that it's going to happen and doesn't see it coming.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Oh man, this is a really good one.
Stephanie Goss:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm super excited to talk about this.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So let's go ahead… So a lot of people have had questions like this. I've heard this question many times in many different ways. And so let me just say at the beginning, I think a lot of times people underestimate how perceptive the team is, and they're like, “They're going to be so surprised!” And I'm like… Maybe they will be. Just because they haven't come to you and complained about this person recently doesn't mean that they don't recognize a lot of the negative things that are happening. And so it's hard for people to work in a hospital with a negative person or someone who starts drama and not be aware that that person is negative or starts drama. They might not communicate that to you. They've also probably been pretty smart and developed some coping strategies where they know how to treat this person so he or she doesn't blow up on them, but that doesn't mean they enjoy it. We all have figured out how to work with certain people, and maybe get along with them just fine, but we a hundred percent recognize who and what they are.
Stephanie Goss:
And the other thing that… I agree with you a hundred percent. And the thing that I would add to that is, you may even have team members who participate with this person and engage in it and you're like, “Oh, they're going to be so shocked because they engaged in the behavior with this veterinarian.” In my own experience, that was very much the case. And when things shifted and there was some changes, I remember one of the people who was always a part of the gossiping and the negativity and the complaining and moaning about everything, came to me and was just like, “Oh, yeah. They drove me crazy. Because it was always so negative, and if I didn't say something, then they made it worse. So I just said something back.” I think you're a hundred percent spot on with that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There's a lot of appeasement. There's a lot of appeasement of those personality types where people go, “Yep.” Well, just think about a bully personality. It's good to be the friend of… If you have to be with a bully, it's better to be their friend. And so that doesn't mean you bully other people of course, but there's a lot of people who go, “I thought you guys were friends?” Like, “I just didn't want to deal with the being picked on all the time, so I made friends.” That's not endorsement of the behavior. That's just me figuring out how to-
Stephanie Goss:
Survive.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Make it and how to be happy here.
Stephanie Goss:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. So from a head space perspective there's just a couple of things for me, most of my thoughts really come in and the actual how to tackle it because the email ended with like, “If I decide to part ways, how do I communicate this the best way to the team? And when?” And so I have a lot of thoughts about that. But really, head space for me has to do with HR piece of this and leaning into this. And so I'm glad that they're asking questions because a lot of the time, a lot of practice owners don't take the time to know what their responsibilities are when it comes to HR and do things sometimes with the best of intentions, but it's all wrong. And so for me, head space has to start with when you're dealing with terminating someone, it is not about who they are.
Stephanie Goss:
It can't be about who they are. It has to be about what do they do. And I hear it. Every time I have this conversation with somebody, they're like, “But this is…” The person and this is part of their personality has nothing to do with who they are or what their personality is. It has to be about what are the behaviors that they are exhibiting and what are the things that you can tangibly and concretely point to and say, “This is unacceptable and why it's unacceptable.” So it has to be about what they're doing, not about who they are.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I love that. I think that's a really great way to look at this. And it falls into my… The big head space for me is the picking your poison, which we talk a lot about. Life is hard. It's always going to be hard. The greatest empowerment we have is choosing how we're going to struggle. And so to me, this is a math problem. At some point it comes down to a math… If I've tried to coach and I've tried to give feedback and I've tried to get them to change behaviors and they have shown me who they are and what is possible and what is not possible, then at some point it's a math problem. And on one side I have the pain and frustration and headaches of letting this person go and dealing with the fallout. And on the other side, I have the pain and headaches and frustration of not letting this person go, and that's a headache. Which headache do I want to have?
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that, my friends, is management 101. That is it. And when this person's looking back and forth and saying, “I don't know if I should do this or not,” and it seems like they kind of know where they're going, but if they're going back and forth about what do I do, the first thing is to pick your poison. It's to say, “How do you want to suffer? How do you want to struggle?” Do you want to struggle with the fallout of letting this person go? Or do you want to struggle with the ongoing behaviors that you know what they are. So that's the big thing for me is pick your poison. The other thing is pick your time. And this is really big because this person has just taken over the practice, because they have a new manager coming on, it seems like there's a lot of things in flux.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I can't advise here because every situation is different and you really have to read the landscape. You do not have to decide right now, “I'm letting this person go, or I'm keeping this person forever.” You can decide, “I'm going to deal with this person for three months while I get this new practice manager in and stabilized.” And the practice manager, I can generally keep them engaged. And you might say, “But they're so positive and they really want the positive culture.” Most people if you go to them and you look at them in the eyes and say, “I'm on board with you and I see what you want and it's what I want. We need to stabilize this ship. I want to take three months to put up with this while we get our bearings straight, and then we are going to remove this person, but I feel like it's better for us to have our feet under us.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Now, I'm not saying that's what we should do. In some cases it's better to just do it all at once. Put the new person in, out with the old person. We're doing the change. Just rip the bandaid off. And in other cases, you go, “I feel like we've had as much instability as we can handle. Let's stabilize the ship. It's three months, maybe six months just to get things back to where not everyone's panicking, and then we're going to reevaluate this and make this change.” But you need to set a time. You can't just be like, “Oh, at some point in the future.” That means you just decided to go on.
Stephanie Goss:
It's scary sometimes how much you and I think alike.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I know.
Stephanie Goss:
Because in my notes I also had pick your poison, and also another one of your favorites was in there for me. But my pick your poison is a little bit different. So for me, my pick your poison had to do with they're like, “Well, now we're down a doctor because one of the partners has gone out, and now could we think about losing another doctor and we've got a new manager,” and there's a lot of anxiety there. You were just talking about the timing, and that for me was the pick your poison. I think sometimes when we go through rapid growth, we think we have no other choice but to continue growing. And so that for me is the pick my poison.
Stephanie Goss:
As a business owner, it is fully in your control how you choose to suffer here. And so you can continue to let growth explode and let things get crazy and messy, or you could choose to lean back and maybe you limit your caseload, maybe you limit your schedule. There's a lot of things that you could do intentionally to try and temper things. Even if it's just temporary, it does not have to be the end of the world. You don't have to say, “We're going to stop seeing appointments on Saturday forever,” but maybe you say, “We're going to stop seeing appointments on Saturday for the next six months.” So that very much is me for pick my poison. Because if I can get that out of the way, then I have more bandwidth and capacity to deal with some of the other challenges. And so this owner sounded to me like someone who was overwhelmed by a lot of what is going on in their practice right now and it is very easy to just feel the panic when lots of things like that are happening.
Stephanie Goss:
And I very much am on board with you about your pick your poison, but also for me, it's also about the growth. And that is something that I would think really thoroughly through, and maybe involve your new practice manager and talk about it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I agree.
Stephanie Goss:
To what you were saying, how do we get our feet under us? What does that look like? How do we make steps forward? And then let's come up with a plan together.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, context matters. And I really think that that's important and that's why we spend time unpacking these things. Context matters. And when I say, “Pick your poison. What pain do you want?” well, that pain changes. If you are talking about letting a doctor go when you're already down two doctors. That might be more pain than you can take. But if you are not down two doctors, then that may be an easy choice. And so things like, for example, let's say that we have a doctor who is having some medical problems and they are in and out, or they're sort of unreliable in their schedule… And not to criticize them way, shape, or form. But while they're going through this, it may be too “painful” for me to let another doctor go.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But when they are back and things have stabilized, I go, “Oh, well, suddenly the pain of letting that doctor go is a lot less than it was when I was already down a doctor, or I didn't have that stability.” So those things can change. Just because you do the math and decide it's not worth the pain now, that math can all change if this person's behaviors change. If you're able to hire another doctor, and then you go, “Oh, look, now it's not that much pain to lose this person.” In fact, it may be beneficial. So all of that math can change. This is not a question now of forever. And the other thing that I wanted to say, especially when coming in and you're feeling overwhelmed, and I have a hundred percent been there and I know how this is, and you look and you say, “This problem needs to get fixed and I'm going to fix it.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
You don't have to fix it now. Sometimes writing on the calendar, “In three months, doctor evaluations,” lets you mentally take that weight off of your shoulders. You have made a decision, and that decision is to evaluate in three months and see where you are and what you want to do. And now you can go on and start working on practice manager onboarding or the other things that you need to do, and you don't feel like there's this elephant in the room that's not being addressed. It is being addressed. It's on the calendar in three months. And so sometimes just that type of clarity can be really helpful.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. There's another piece that's kind of head space, but more action-oriented for me. So I'm going to save that until we get there. But the last thing for me really has to do with just the reality of what HR is and being a business owner, which means that we have to… Part of it, part of it, is that we will always have to do things that suck. We will always have to be the one to make the hard decisions and the weight of that is squarely on your shoulders as a business owner and as someone who is in charge of HR. And the other part of it that's hard is that you can't share a lot of information with your team and there will always be decisions that you have to make that the team will not understand and that you can't make them understand.
Stephanie Goss:
And so from a head space perspective, you have got to be able to wrap your brain around that and reconcile that. And this is where, I'll be honest and vulnerable, that a huge part of getting to the place where I felt comfortable with that as a leader, as manager, as a business owner, was going to therapy and talking it out and really processing my own fears and concerns and worries about that piece of it, because I'm a people pleaser and I want everybody to be happy and I want the team to stay and I don't want to lose anybody that I really care about. And the reality is, at the end of the day, I can't control how they respond or what they do. I can only control my piece in the situation. And for me, that is approaching this from a very above board perspective.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think this practice owner, the way that they are talking about it was very logical and above board and well thought out. And I think that continuing to approach it that way is important. But the reality, from a head space perspective, is that you have to be able to wrap your mind around the fact that you're not always going to make everybody happy, there are going to be things that you can't explain to the team and that they won't understand, and you have to figure out a way to let go of that and get that monkey off your back. Because if you don't, it will eat you alive.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree. I think this is a great place for us to take a break. It's a really good head space. And when we get back let's talk about what are we going to communicate to the team and what does the team need from us when we do these things?
Stephanie Goss:
I love it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Let's take a break.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. This is Stephanie, and I'm going to jump in here for one quick second and make sure that you know about a few things that are coming up that I'm pretty sure you're not going to want to miss. But before I do that, I have to say thank you. Thanks to a generous gift from our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital we are now able to provide transcripts for all of our podcast episodes. And we have to just say thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Andy and I have wanted to make the podcast more accessible and when we were pondering the idea of how do we make transcripts a thing, our friends at Banfield stepped up in a big way and said, “Hey, we are striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the profession. This fits with that mission for us and we would love to sponsor it.”
Stephanie Goss:
So the 2022 podcast episodes are all now being transcribed and brought to you by our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital. To check out the transcript and find out more about what Banfield is doing to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the vet profession, head over to unchartedvet.com/blog and you can find each one of the podcast episodes and a link to find out more about equity, inclusion, and diversity at Banfield. And now, there is something coming up that you're not going to want to miss. And unlike Andy, I'm not just saying that because I'm the one teaching this upcoming workshop. That's right, at the end of June I am teaching a workshop for all of you and I am super pumped about this. This is a workshop that I just had the chance to do with our unchartered community at our April conference in person.
Stephanie Goss:
And it is called teamwork mind-melds. We are going to be talking about setting expectations for team communication, but it goes beyond setting expectations for the team communication. Really, we're going to talk about exercises and things that we can do to intentionally get the team to know each other, get on the same page. Because when we're on the same page and we know each other, having accountability conversations is a lot easier to do. So if this sounds like something you would be interested in, head on over to the website at unchartedvet.com/events and you can sign up. It is June 29th, which is a Wednesday. It's going to be at 8:30 Eastern. So 5:30 Pacific. And it is $99 for people who are not currently Uncharted members. And as always, it's free for our members. I really hope to see you there. And don't worry, we've got lots more coming later this summer. So make sure to save the events page and come on back regularly because we've got lots of good stuff coming at you. And now, back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right. Well, let's talk some action steps. How do you want to break this down?
Stephanie Goss:
I love it. That's a great question. So I think for me, it's a little bit of a head space, but also action. So there are really two main things that we can evaluate our team on. We can evaluate them on their skills, and we can also evaluate them on their fit. And the fit part is really what a lot of people struggle with because it's nebulous and they don't know how to evaluate it. It's funny because you and I have taught some classes about, how do we actually do that? But for me, the action is, “Look, if we…” Especially if we don't want to lose team members in collateral damage, my question is, are we actually clearly communicating to the team what we expect? In terms of behavior, in terms of how they show up at work, how we treat each other.
Stephanie Goss:
And this is where I see a lot of managers and leaders struggle because they have somebody that they feel like is a poor cultural fit, but they don't have anything to point to and say, “This violates our rules or this violates our agreements.” And so they struggle with, “Well, how do I actually terminate them because they're a poor fit?” And so that's why I say it's a little bit of a head space thing because I think that you have to… I know you and I talk about the SAFE acronym a lot, and we talk about the F being the setup to fail. And this is where I have to ask myself, “Have I set myself and the team up for failure?” And the answer should be yes.
Stephanie Goss:
If I haven't really clearly communicated to them what I expect for them when they're at work in terms of behavior, and also if I haven't communicated to them how I'm going to show up for them in return and what they can expect from me as a boss. And so I think for me, starting to solve this problem for our practice owner would be to look at what have you actually communicated to them? What are the expectations? What does your handbook say? What are your policies? Do you have a set of team agreements or a code of conduct where it says that people are not going to gossip or are not going to engage in talking behind people's back or negative behavior? Which were some of the examples that this practice owner gave us. This vet is criticizing the way that the practices run, is getting the texts to be pitted against the practice owner. Stuff like that. Do you have policies in place that you could point to and say, “This behavior…” Because it's not about the person, it's about what they're doing, “This behavior is a violation of these policies.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I think expectations is really important. So I guess big action steps for me should have started with the individual. Consistent feedback on this is not acceptable and this is acceptable. I always feel like it's our job to let people know where they stand, and they can do with that information what they will, but I do feel like we should let the person know how they're doing. And it sounds like that's what happened here. It does sound like this person's been talked to a number of times and it's been very clear and direct. So the first thing is, let people know where they stand. The other thing is… There's a question here about the team is going to be surprised or I'm worried about fallout.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And a lot of times what happens when we actually have fallout, there's sort of two reasons. Number one is the person is popular with other people, and so we do get some fallout in that sometimes. I think that's pretty rare is you have someone who's causing problems worthy of them being let go and other people don't don't see that or don't believe it. It could happen. But there might be some people who are just, they're friends with this person and they're going to go along. And that may be unavoidable. The bigger reason that people really stress is we all want to feel safe and secure, we all want to feel like our jobs are safe and secure. And the idea that someone might get let go and we don't understand why it happens, that can cause us some real tension and some anxiety because we go, “Who's next? What if I make this mistake? Could it be me?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so the way we get around that is also clear expectations along and along of letting people know what is expected as far as performance, and then it's performance evaluations and it's talking to people about how they're doing. And honestly, it's giving people, and I keep going back to this because I love it, it's positive reinforcement.
Dr. Andy Roark:
If people hear that they're doing a good job, if they know how they're being evaluated and they know that you're happy with their growth and their development, and they see that they're doing things that are making a difference and are being held up, they're much more likely to shake off something of someone else being let go, and go, “Well, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback and I feel very secure here.” When they don't get that type of feedback they can have a lot of uncertainty, and that uncertainty can manifest as fear. And that's when we have a lot of people who go, “Oh my gosh. I can't believe this person was let go!” And what they're really saying is, “Oh my gosh. I can't believe that that could happen to me!”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally agree with that, in that, “Get out of my head, man,” because we're on the same page today. And that definitely the last thing for me deals with, okay, when you make the decision to let this person go and you have to talk to the team about it, how do you frame it? Because that was one of the questions, which was, “If I do terminate them, what is the best way to communicate it to the team, and when and how?” So that for me is the last piece. But I'm right there with you. I think you need to figure out how to address that. But for me, in terms of how do I tackle it with the veterinarian? There's two ways you can play this.
Stephanie Goss:
You can say… Well, if you're in a place where at-will employment is a thing, there are two ways that you can tackle this. So assuming that you can just let someone go, you don't have to have cause to terminate them, you can choose to let them go and just say, “I've had enough and I'm moving on. And yes, I've talked to them, but I don't really care about it. I'm just going to say it's time for us to part ways and we're going to move on.” Or you can say, “Okay, I've got this new practice manager here. I want to talk to this person. I really truly want the team, if they were ever to find out how I handled it, to feel like I gave it all of the chances.” And a lot more of us fall into that camp of wanting to feel like we've done all of the things.
Stephanie Goss:
And so for me, I would say if you're looking at it and you don't feel solid or you're not sure, give yourself a break and give yourself the chance. And so, yes, maybe you've talked to them five times already and you've already talked about the behaviors, but this is where you give yourself the final opportunity to talk about it and document it. And so for me, it's about starting with the vet and starting very widely and openly and honest. And just say to them, “Hey…” And give them a concrete… It has to be a concrete example, but pick something that has happened recently that has been troublesome… Words are hard today.
Stephanie Goss:
Has been troublesome for you, and say to them, “When this happened, I've really been struggling with this. Can you tell me what you were thinking when you reacted this way?” Because a lot of the examples had to do with things that this person was doing or not doing after having interactions with them. And so I would just be honest with them and hear what they have to say. And then the second part of that is then take the advantage and set a plan in place, and just say, “We've talked about this a few times. I feel like I have asked you to change the behavior and I'm not seeing the change. I need us to move forward together with a plan for how we're going to fix this,” and then set a plan in place.
Stephanie Goss:
And work through it with really frequent and documented communication. That is the part that a lot of us get so worked up about writing someone up and we put all our anxiety on the process of telling them, “I'm writing you up and this is the plan that I'm giving you.” For a lot of people, that's where it then stops. And they walk away and it's like, “I've done the hard thing.”
Stephanie Goss:
But really the hard thing is the follow up and the follow through and the documentation and the checking in and saying… To your point about positive reinforcement, “Hey, this was a great week. We didn't have any issues this week. Thank you so much for really working on changing this behavior. I really appreciate it.” Or, “Hey, we just talked about this last week and we already had an incident this week. We really need to see a change in the behavior,” and follow up and reinforce that, “This is what we talked about. This is what's going to happen.” If nothing, doing it for yourself so that you can… Because here's what's going to happen, either this vet… If you lay a plan out and you talk to them and you follow all the steps and you jump through all the hoops, one of three things is going to happen.
Stephanie Goss:
Either they're going to self eject, which based on the information we have is the best case scenario in this picture. The second option is that maybe the behavior actually gets better. And that may or may not be a good thing in this case. Sometimes we think, “Well, there are some redeeming qualities about this person and I really would like to keep them on the team if they get better.” I've certainly been in that position. But maybe it doesn't, and so maybe that's not a good thing if they get their act together. But they either self eject, they get better, or you have the documentation that you need to show the lack of progress, which makes you be able to go to sleep at night and feel good saying, “I've done all I can, and now we're going to part ways and we're going to move on,” and I don't care because I have done the things that I need to do to sleep well at night.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, no. Yeah. I completely agree. I think that's a great way to get into the head space. And so, yeah, you just, as you said, march through the process of, we have continued to add steps and this behavior's not changing, and now here we are. And then when you make the decision to do it, just do it. Just do it. I don't know about you, Stephanie. I'm not a legal expert on employment law in France, but…
Stephanie Goss:
Me either.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But adhere to local ordinances and employment law.
Stephanie Goss:
Talk to your employment attorney.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. But just make the decision and just do it. I've brought it up a number of times in the past, there's a great scene in the movie Moneyball with…
Stephanie Goss:
Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill. Where Brad Pitt's coaching Jonah Hill on how to let someone go. Or, how to send them down to the minors. And if you've never seen that scene, it's worth a Google just to watch it on YouTube. It's a great movie. But, boy, and it's funny because it's so accurate on how we struggle with not wanting to hurt people's feelings or how we want them to perceive us as good people. And it just makes this point really well of just, “Hey, just do it.” Just tell them the news. Be empathetic. Just don't beat around the bush. Just tell them what it is, and then be done with it. And that leaves us with the last thing of what exactly do we say to the staff because we can't just disappear someone and we don't talk about them anymore. They're like, “Oh, I don't know who you're talking about.”
Stephanie Goss:
There are companies where that is a thing, and it is so weird and so awkward to me. Because it's like…
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, yeah. I can't imagine. And it might be more acceptable in a company of 500 people than it is in 15, but still, it's weird. Again, going back to the employment stuff, there are very legal consequences about what we can say and what we can't say. And as the employer, your hands are probably pretty tied about what you can say, but you can at least give your staff the boiler plate language. And my thing would be, always talk about this employee who were let go in a positive way. And just say, “Hey, we're really sorry to lose her, but she's going to be moving on. So guys, we're going to work hard and things are going to be okay and we're going to make some changes and shore up some of the things we're doing in the exam room, just to make things run smoothly now that we're going to be down one doctor.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And so I think this is where, for me, the action plan goes back to what you were talking about before. Which is that, A, your team is not dumdums.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yep, they're going to know.
Stephanie Goss:
They're going to know. And B, they're worried about what is going to potentially happen to them. It's just human nature. And so always, yes, you are bound by confidentiality, but you should always tell them, “Here's the plan for the transition,” because that is going to give anxiety for a lot of people. Even if the plan is… And I have been this manager to stand up in front of my team and say, “I don't know what the plan is. I was not expecting this, but I promise you that I'm going to spend the rest of the day figuring out a plan. And I will circle back with you and I promise that we are going to take care of this together.”
Stephanie Goss:
Because sometimes you don't know what the plan is, but sometimes you do. Especially if you have documented someone through this and it has not been a thing that was unexpected and you didn't see coming, where you have to fire somebody on the spot. And so for me, it's as simple as saying, “They no longer work here. Here's the transition plan.” So in this case, “Here's how we're going to handle Dr. Roark not being on the schedule” after today, or after Friday, or whatever it is. You have to alleviate that anxiety for them. And then the other thing that you should do is say, “If you have any questions or concerns about this issue, here is who you should talk to,” and make it very clear that you don't…
Stephanie Goss:
What you're saying by not saying anything about, “Let's not gossip about this,” is, “Look, if you have questions or you have concerns, here's who you should talk to.” And it should be yourself, or your practice manager as the person who's in charge of HR. Because what inevitably is going to happen is that they are going to talk and there is going to be concerns and there are going to be people who want to know. And there are limitations to what you can and should tell them.
Stephanie Goss:
And at the same time, I should want to hear them out. If I have technicians on my team who liked working with this doctor and have concerns, I should want to, in an effort… Especially in an effort to minimize the collateral damage, to find out from them, what are they actually concerned about? And so the second follow up, when you hear that they are talking, or that there are questions or concerns about what happened, or someone, in the best case scenario, comes and asks you directly, you can say, “I hear that you have concerns about this, or I hear you've been asking questions about this piece of it.” And then you need to tell them, “Look, I can't talk to you about the personal specifics. Just like I wouldn't have a conversation with somebody else about your personal employment specifics. However, I want to understand what's worrying you, or what's bothering you. What are you concerned about?”
Stephanie Goss:
Because really, at the end of the day you want them to hear that you care about them, you're not going to share information and shut it down, because you can't from an HR perspective. And at the same time, if Sarah is gossiping about the fact that Dr. Roark is no longer on the schedule, I want to know what is Sarah actually worried about? Is she worried because she's going to miss Dr. Roark as her friend? Is she worried that she might be next because they were gossiping together and she thinks that this doctor got let go for gossip? In that case, I can totally hear what Sarah has to say and then figure out how do I address that in a one-on-one capacity with her versus this being a team discussion now when I've just let everybody know that Dr. Roark is no longer on the team.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I completely agree with that. I think that that's a great way to set it up just to control the way that the things are communicated. Where you don't want to end up, and I've seen this many times, is the manager has been like, “Okay guys, I can't tell you a whole lot, but Dr. Roark is not with us anymore.” And then all of a sudden somebody goes, “Why is Dr. Roark not with us anymore?” And he's like, “Is it because Dr. Roark was gossiping?” And there's a lot of hands and there's lots of questions coming from other places. And then other people just start talking, “I'm sure it was because he was gossiping. Did you know that he gossips about…” blah, blah, blah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then they talk, and then all of a sudden there is a huge conversation with information going everywhere. It's a big mess. Just get out in front of it and say, “I'm not able to talk about these things. If you have questions, this is the path to take.” And just try to guide them so that they engage in a productive way, as opposed to just giving them the news and saying, “I can't talk about it,” and then letting them talk to each other. Because I've seen that so many times.
Stephanie Goss:
A hundred percent. And the last piece of that for me goes back to what you were saying about they're not dumbdumbs. And that is, if there really are reasons for the termination that are evidenced in your… If they violated part of your team code of conduct, if they violated a safety protocol, whatever the reason is, if there is something that has a documented reason behind it that goes back to your policies or protocols, make sure that the team has follow up on those things. Because they are not dumbdumbs and they will read between the lines and they will understand, well, now you're having a staff meeting later that week about your safety protocols out of the blue, they're going to understand that there may be some tie to that. You are doing your job, you're making sure that they're all aware of it, and everybody's on the same page and you're not divulging any private information with the team.
Stephanie Goss:
And so that is something that you can definitely control. And so that is the last kind of piece of it for me when it comes to, how do we tell them? Is that, you may not be able to give them specifics, but they're not dumb. They can read between the lines and they will. And so you set up follow up. If there are things that they should all be aware of. Just because you let Dr. Roark go for gossiping doesn't mean that you're going to let the technician who was gossiping with him go, but they should be aware that this is something that you have a zero tolerance policy about, if that's the case, or whatever. So I think taking the time to kind of have that follow up, whether you do it in a team meeting or department memos or whatever it looks like in your practice, give them the information and they will be able to read between the lines.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. My last point on this I just want to say, where I would wrap this up, and then this is, remember when you let someone go, everyone else is really thinking about themselves. Meaning, what do I need to know so that this doesn't happen to me? Or so that I don't end up in trouble, or so that my job is not in jeopardy? And then also, now that this person is gone, how does that affect me? So if there's a doctor that is gone, what are we going to do with the patients? How are we going to handle this schedule? What is that going to be like? And that's just human nature of, there's radical change, what is this mean for me? And so when you address the team, think in those regards of, what does this mean for the people who are here hearing this message?
Dr. Andy Roark:
What information do they need? What do they care about? If you are the one who's making the decision, then my advice is to go ahead and have a plan for how you're going to handle changes so that you can communicate that at the time of how we're going to go forward. Because the thing that makes us hard is uncertainty, so the more certainty you can give. If this is a thing where someone quits and they leave and this was not your plan, but here we are, always remember that step one of your plan can be to make a plan. And honestly, I… So you say, “Guys, so here's what we're going to do. We are going to evaluate the situation, we're going to look at the things that we're going to need to tweak and change in order to handle this change, and we're going to make a plan to handle that, and then we will be communicating the plan as soon as we have it.”
Stephanie Goss:
And also, ask them for help. Say, “If there's things you can think of that we need to make sure… Like scheduling things that you can think of, or potential landmines that you know of when it comes to the patient care, or client care, or whatever, please let us know because we want to include that.” Get them bought in and participating in the process.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I completely agree. Well, that's all I got that. I think this is a hard problem. It's a very, very common problem. I hope it's been helpful.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, me too. Take care, everybody. [inaudible 00:45:44] week.
Dr. Andy Roark:
See you, everybody.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, everybody, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. Thanks so much for spending your time with us. We truly enjoy spending part of our week with you. As always, Andy and I enjoyed getting into this topic. I have a tiny, little favorite ask. Actually two of them. One is if you can go to wherever you source your podcast from and hit the review button and leave us a review, we love hearing your feedback and knowing what you think of the podcast. And number two, if you haven't already, hit the subscribe button. Thanks so much for listening, guys. We'll see you soon.
