This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…
Have you ever hired someone or had someone join the team and when they get started, it is obvious to the whole team that this person WAY oversold their skillset and abilities? This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss tackle a great question from a practice manager in this very predicament who is asking “What can I do to fix this problem and bridge the gap between their skills and what we need while also addressing the fact that they are currently being grossly overpaid considering their actual skill abilities. We loved the positive and fresh take on this challenge and had a lot of fun with it. Let's get into this…
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Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody. Hi, I'm Stephanie Goss. And this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast is kind of a mailbag question, but really there is a situation that a colleague of mine who is a fellow practice manager, reached out to our manager community that we're in and asked for help on. And when I thought I reached out to her and said, “Hey, I don't know that I have a whole lot of answers, but I would really love to talk about this on the podcast with Andy,” because I think that this is something that happens more frequently than we realized.
Stephanie Goss:
And it's really important A, to band together and realize that you're not alone in this situation and B, I loved how this practice manager was approaching it from a place of, how do I actually fix this problem? Versus running away from it. Curious yet? We're going to talk about what happens when we hire someone who has very oversold their abilities and their skillset. And they are being paid a wage that is not really commensurate with the experience level or their abilities once they join the team. And this manager is wondering, I could jump ship and I could run now, but could I fix this? Can I bridge the gap between where they are and where they should be to pay them what we're paying them. Curious? Let's get into this one.
Meg:
And now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie. The case is mistaken identity, Goss.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, how funny? Is it mistaken identity? I'm not so sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I don't know. I don't know.
Stephanie Goss:
I like it. How's it going, Andy?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, it's good. The weather here is beautiful, things are moving along nicely. For we've moved into that part of the school year, where the school lets you know, hey, there's one month left of school and we now have 47 events for you to attend in the middle of the day, every day. Surely you'll be there for the 11th AM Awards ceremony for almost perfect attendance.
Stephanie Goss:
True story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Surely the 1:00 PM cookie lunch with dad is important to you.
Stephanie Goss:
And surely, it all needs to be crammed into the last four weeks of school.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's called Springfest. Is it on Saturday? No, it's on Monday.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, I am very, very glad we are in our last two weeks of school and I am very glad I am ready for a break. I'm ready to be done. The kids are getting very excited. I think they have one more like real week of school next week and then the last week is fun and games and-
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's a joke.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Bless their teachers for embracing it. We're having a school camp out the night before the last day of school and they're like, “Yeah, we're not actually even going to have school on the last day. We're just going to all hang out and have breakfast together, then everybody's going home.” I was like, great. I can roll with that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I have mixed emotions. Here's some genius for you. My 10 year old daughter's teacher is like, “We're doing social studies in the modern era.” And I'm like, “What does that mean?” And it turns out she's listening to songs and watching movies of the '70'S, '80'S and '90'S. And I'm like, that's genius.
Stephanie Goss:
My kid also just, they were doing something with music of the '80's and they were listening to some YouTube channel and it was like, top 10's of different genres from the '80's. And she was just like, “I knew this many songs and nobody else in my class knew these songs.” I was like, “Because I'm the old parent in your class. That's why this is happening.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. On the upside, they listened to, I Will Survive and some beachy songs like Stayin' Alive, and I was like, that's great. On the downside, the teacher decided to show the fourth grade class, Michael Jackson's Thriller. And it took me three days, to get Hannah to sleep through the night again. And I was like, I remember being nine, 10 years old and seeing Michael Jackson's Thriller, it is intense.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. That was on the list of songs and yeah. So that's an intense one. Oh man.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's good. All right. That's enough of that. We're making it into the summer. It's going to be good. We're almost there.
Stephanie Goss:
We have a question from the mailbag today that comes in preparation for the summer craziest. And this is actually a conversation that I was having with a colleague who is a manager and their clinic is shorthanded as a lot of us are, and they are hiring multiple positions and they have been looking and have been trying to intentionally find the right people. And they have someone who has joined the team who seems to have slipped through the cracks. And it is a licensed technician who seems to have very much oversold themselves and their abilities.
Stephanie Goss:
And they were given an offer letter where they are paid at the very top of the field because they are licensed and theoretically have all of the skills that they said that they had. And so my manager friend was like, “Hey, we're in at will state and so I could just cut and run, but I feel a responsibility because I think we missed some tricks in terms of our interviewing process here and so what can we do to help this person reach their pay grade versus cut and run?” And I thought this is a really great question. And the reason that I loved it was because I felt like it was a really positive approach. I think a lot of people would look at it and say, “You cut and run. That's what you do.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's not necessarily wrong. It's not necessarily wrong. And it's going to be up front and say, it's not wrong. I like where this person's head is. I don't think that they're wrong for having that thought.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, no. And so I thought this will be a fun one for you and I to debate and talk through.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I like it a lot. There's two issues here. There's the issue, the obvious issue and there's the issue they asked us about. And the obvious issue is, how do we get here and how do we not get here next time? And then the question they asked us about is, given that we're here, What do we do about it? And I think they're both great questions. I don't want to get sucked into the first question because that's not what we were asked, but I think we should touch on it. Do you want to do a speed round, real fast of what do we do to make sure we don't end up in a position where we just paid top dollar for someone who's not skill wise, how they represented themselves to be?
Dr. Andy Roark:
That could be technician. That could be CSR. That can be doctor who has got three years of experience and acted like they were a hundred percent, they were wildly experienced and comfortable and competent and then you get them in the clinic and they really are not so comfortable and or competent. And you go, Ooh! So anyway, I'm not trying to make this about technicians, but this is anybody who maybe represents themselves in the best possible light during the interview process.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. So I think it's funny because this colleague asked this question in a group that we're in and immediately a lot of the responses were very much like, this never should have happened. Like why didn't you have a system in place?
Dr. Andy Roark:
I hate those responses. Like the whole, I'm going to rent here for a second. I hate social media in this way. I hate it so much when people go in and they're vulnerable and they're like, “Hey, this is what happens and I'm trying to figure out where to go from here.” And people just push each other out of the way to go, “Oh, let me tell you where you screwed up six months ago.” And you're like, “That's not what I asked about? I said, I got it. I saw that it happened, you telling me that only an idiot would hire this way, is not helpful and not productive.” And it's like, I'm sorry. I see that all the time. And I hate it so much. I have to have a say-
Stephanie Goss:
I understand.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… I hate it and I see it all the time. And so if you're feeling that way and you're like, “You know what? I would love to ask questions and not have people behave that way. I wish that social media was that way. I wish social media was that way too.” It's not. You know what? Is the Uncharted Online Community Im just throwing that out there, it's what you wish social media was, it actually is those people who jump in with the support and the advice and encouragement that you need. Sorry. I'm antisocial media today.
Stephanie Goss:
I know, I feel a hundred percent because I was reading this and I was like, “Gosh, why are we ganging up on this person for having-“
Dr. Andy Roark:
I know. It's awful.
Stephanie Goss:
… in this case, I don't even think was their control, it was a decision that was made by a doctor. But still, it doesn't matter, even if they had made it, it doesn't do any good to gang up on. This is like when we give feedback about stuff that happened six months ago, not helpful, not productive to anybody. This is where, but where are we going to start? Well, I think we're not wrong that we should talk about how do we prevent this from happening in the future, because this is not, this is the kind of thing that I see in here and you and I get asked about a lot and there are a lot of people out there who don't have systems in place.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I want to make sure that we do some due diligence and make sure that everybody is thinking about some things that we can do to avoid this in the future. So I think there should be a system in place for hiring and the hiring process. And that pipeline should help you prevent some of these challenges. So in this particular case, and particularly with any licensed or credentialed person, there are really three pieces of it that are important reference checks that I want to put a pin in that and come back to it because it's a little bit bigger. Verifications of credentials. So if you have somebody, whether they're a doctor or technician who say that they're a credentialed potential team member, it is free in every state for you to look up and see the status of their current license. And that is a step that a lot of people miss and don't bother to take the time, because I think some of us are doing background checks and assume that if that's not valid, it will come up as part of the background check.
Stephanie Goss:
And I will also tell you that's not always true with a lot of companies who do background checks, where you have to ask specifically. And particularly when you're talking about your technician staff, to have them look at that whereas with your doctors, generally, they're looking for the credentials, but for a lot of companies, you have to ask for it. And then a lot of us don't know what we don't know and we assume if we're asking for a background check on a Dr. Andy Roark, that they're going to check whether his doctor's license is valid in the state that I'm in, but that's not necessarily true. So having a system that is looking in particular for our credentialed team members, technicians, and doctors, looking at their current credentials and the state, and if there's been any pings or concerns with their credentials, and then the reference check piece is big. And that's like a bigger podcast because there's pros and cons to it. But reference checks are a thing for a reason. And that can help avoid challenges there.
Stephanie Goss:
But the big part for this here system wise, part of the interview process has to be, if you're looking at skilled team members. So whether they are licensed or not, it doesn't matter. If I'm interviewing a skilled CSR who has previous veterinary experience, or if I'm interviewing a licensed technician who's going to work with my team, I want the ability to assess their skills as an employer. And that can take a lot of forms that can look like pre-employment testing, like asking somebody, do they actually know the alphabet and giving them a test to figure out. If you have paper charts, can they file charts accordingly? Can they calculate drug doses?
Stephanie Goss:
Those things are super valid and can, and should be a part of your hiring process. But the other big piece is physically asking them to do the job. And this is where veterinary medicine gets itself into a lot of trouble because oftentimes we say, “Oh yeah, let's do a working interview and come and chat out and hang out for the day and I'm not going to pay you, but I want you to stay. Because, I want to see how you're going to do the job.” That is bad, bad, bad.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Bad. I agree.
Stephanie Goss:
And nothing gets me on my soapbox faster than when somebody says, “Oh, this is my process.” But, for two reasons-
Dr. Andy Roark:
You know what gets me on my soapbox faster than that, social media. Thought you know. I'm good. That's it, I didn't have to say.
Stephanie Goss:
But here's the thing you guys, we have to protect ourselves and we have to protect that person. So there are a lot of people now who like reference checks, will just say, “Don't bother doing them because you can't ask the questions anyways.” And that's not true. If you're going to do working interviews, there is a proper way to do it so that you and that person are covered. And it involves generally two very important and easy things. One, you have to compensate them. You have to compensate them for your time. I am not going to ask someone to come in and spend the whole day or half day with my team and not compensate them for my time. I wouldn't want to go to an interview and be asked to stay and work for free.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yep. If you bring this person in and you compensate them for their time and then you don't hire them, that was the best money you ever spent.
Stephanie Goss:
Absolutely.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That is an outstanding investment, period, full stop. But if you do bring them in and hire them, it's-
Stephanie Goss:
Also good investment.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… it's a drop in the bucket and it's a good investment of starting off in a good foot. I mean, just that's it. I agree.
Stephanie Goss:
So you have to pay them. And then the second piece of it, which often is covered by paying them, if you do it correctly, is you have to protect them and yourself insurance wise. And so that's why I don't even call them working interviews anymore. What I say to people is, we would love to have you come and spend a day with us as a relief person, so that we can assess your skills and you'll be able to meet the rest of the team, they'll be able to interact with you, you'll be able to assess us, just don't ever forget that they're interviewing you too. And so you set them up and you pay them and I'm not going to get into the rules, but there are rules around how you pay them and what you do. But generally when you pay them to be there and you do it correctly, you are covering your own ass when it comes to insurance and liability.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I am a huge fan. Can't state it enough. You should have an interview process that helps you stay out of this situation that our manager friend finds themselves in. And when you do it generally involves having a working interview as part of your process so that you can do exactly that. You are continuing to interview them, you are assessing them for their fit with your team, you also have the opportunity to have them put their hands on your patients and get a feel for their actual skills.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yep. Totally. That's it. That's the much I want to say about that. That's exactly, it's like, “All right, next time, we'll do these differently. But hey, we all make mistakes. We all learn the hard way.” Anyone who acts like they didn't learn this the hard way, was either just lucky or they lie. And that's it. So anyway, being [crosstalk 00:15:48].
Stephanie Goss:
I learnt this the hard way.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… mistake like this, is ridiculous. So anyway, that happens to the best if we all learn, that's just how we learn sometimes. So anyway, I just wanted to cover that. Perfect. Done. Let's pick it from where we are.
Stephanie Goss:
But also not the question. Yeah. The question that was asked is-
Dr. Andy Roark:
Not the question.
Stephanie Goss:
… okay, this has been done, so now what do I do to help this person come up in their skillset and reach their pay grade?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay. So what do we do to get them up there? The healthiest thing from a head space standpoint, and that's where we start, is head space. It's to focus on the present and the future and just to put the pass behind you. It doesn't matter how we got here. There's no reason to think what if, or I wish I had done this differently or I would do… You didn't. And here we are. And so be kind to yourself by forgiving yourself and accepting our position and just moving on and starting fresh here clear ride. So, I don't know. I'm sure I'm not the only person who has a bad habit of beating himself up about mistakes I made and things I should have done and didn't do. It is not helpful.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hard truth is this person that we're dealing with probably possibly wasn't entirely truthful about their experience level or charitably, maybe didn't understand what we were asking or-
Stephanie Goss:
Somewhere in between.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… confused their knowledge with actually being able to do the thing, which isn't different. So, okay. That's kind of what we're looking at. Let's just be honest about where we are and what we're dealing with. Put a pin in that for the future and file it away. My mother's favorite saying what she got from Oprah, we quote the book of Oprah in our house. My mother's favorite saying from Oprah is, “When someone shows you what they are, believe them.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I go, “Yeah, okay. Let's remember that and just move on.” Starting now, what needs to happen to keep this salary and this job ranked? Full-stop. That is the question that we need to not talking to the person, sit down, involve the decision makers, like is the medical director on board with us? Who do we need to get on board? But say, I would like to keep this person where they are and we need to skill wise, get them where they need to be. What needs to happen to make that a reality? And then I think you start there.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think that's a great way to approach it. And I think that there are people who are listening, who are like, “But what do I do about the other technicians? And what do I do about the rest of the team who has no certification, but has the skills that this person doesn't possess in this moment.” I'm going to say this. None of that matters. Well, it does matter. But in this context, it doesn't. Though your point, Andy is, look, we have to start here and now doesn't matter what happened in the past. It doesn't matter how we got here, starting here and now, how do we make the change?
Stephanie Goss:
Now, the reason that I said that stuff doesn't matter is because this should be a conversation about this person in the context solely of themselves and their skills. Not comparing them to the other team members, not pitting them against each other. But this is looking at this person and saying, okay, here's the skills, here's you, let's identify the gaps and figure out how we're going to fix them. Not, “Well, the rest of the team can do this and you can't. So this is something we need to fix.” That sets them up for failure on both sides. It sets the team up for failure and it sets that person up for failure straight out of the gate.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think it's our job as leaders to try to achieve balance. And so, yeah, I think you have to at least look over at the compensation side and say, what do we need so that people feel okay? And I don't mean what do the other support staff need to feel? I don't think that, the best thing is they should not know anything about this, other than this person is credentialed and they were brought into this level and they should not know what their compensation is. Ideally, that's the case. The truth is if they're looking at this person and he's a level 3 technician, and he can't do what the other level 1's and 2's can do, that's a problem. And they're going to see it and they're going to, it may not have anything to do with money, but they're going to say, “Why is this person level 3, when they cannot do the things that the rest of us can do?” That is a problem that we need to at least file it away and know that it's real.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. I don't disagree there, which feels contradictory to saying that it doesn't matter. But I do. I think that in the moment when you're having the conversation with your new technician, what other people can do or can't do, and the comparisons don't matter, but when you step back and you zoom out for a second, it a hundred percent matters. The team is watching. Equity is important. And to your point, I actually would advocate that I would want the team to know what they're all getting paid because I would want there to be equity in a pay scale. And I would want someone to know if we just hired a level 3 technician that this is where that pay scale starts.
Stephanie Goss:
And so they can see, not assume, not ask for information behind closed doors or have the whispered conversations, which is how it happens in a lot of clinics, but I would actually want them to have that transparency because I do think that the equity matters and what I would say to this manager is I think they are doing a good thing because they are setting the bar and they are acknowledging for their team that, “Hey, things happen, mistakes happen. And I'm not going to go into details. I'm not going to elaborate to the team because my role as an HR professional is not to do that, it's to it's to keep it quiet and to manage it.” But I also can still say to them, “I recognize that there are discrepancies and here's what we're doing to address that.” And I think that's what matters when it comes to the team, if there are concerns and if those kind of things are being voiced, I think it's important to address. We're human and mistakes get made and here's what I'm doing to fix it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And I am also going to circle back to what we said at the beginning and I have to put on my pragmatist hat here. And I would say also as part of head space, I think you, as the decision maker, you need to get comfortable with the idea that this might all fall apart and burn. And it just might, and I think you can accept that and be graceful about it. And the truth is not take too much responsibility on yourself to say this person misrepresented their skills and their expertise and we did not catch it in the interview process and did not take steps to verify. And so when they came in, they were paid at a high pay level. They were not able to do the skills. Their skillset did not match up with their job status or rating and the other team saw that and ultimately it all fell apart and did not work out.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think that the healthiest thing is to go ahead and accept, this might not work out. This person might not be capable of getting where you need them to be. The rest of the team might rebel and hopefully they won't. But if this becomes every day, one of the team members comes in and says, “Your level 3 technician messed this up again and they're not able to do that and it's causing tension in the practice and every day I have to be an apologist for this person.” Or I have to work it out. Ultimately I'm going to pick my poison and I have a couple of options.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I can continue to stick to my guns and I'll do that until it becomes unfeasible or unpleasant, significantly unpleasant for me to do that, I can adjust the person's level and say, “Hey, look, I need to drop you down to a level 2 instead of a level 3. And with a plan that we mutually create to get you back up to level 3, but you're going to need to drop down to level 2. And that's just what's going to need to happen in order to have other people feeling okay about working with you.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Or it's going to be, “Hey, this isn't working and we're going to need to part ways.” And so I think those are the three outcomes. And I don't think that you have to decide on the first day, which of those three things you do. I think you can a hundred percent start off with rosy glasses on and say, “you know what, let's fix this, let's come up with a plan to get you up where you need to be, we're going to work hard on this. Let's see how it goes.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And maybe it'll work really great. Maybe the person will respond. Maybe their confidence will blossom and they'll grow quickly. And I've seen, that it can happen. Maybe they'll crash and burn and this whole thing will go south and the misunderstanding during the hiring process is just a preview of misunderstandings that we can expect to have with this person going forward and the whole thing is gonna fall apart. I don't know. But I think the healthy head space is to Say, “Yeah, I have some concerns that this is not going to work out in the long term. Going to give it my best. But I am not going to stake my happiness on this particular thing working out.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And I think that really, for me, from a manager perspective, I think the potential for it to go sideways comes from the perception of the team in two ways. One, what you're doing in the moment, right now. Like if it's very obvious and in this case, it was very obvious that this technician oversold their abilities, it's going to be obvious to the rest of the team. And so it's what you're doing in the moment and also the timeliness in which you address this. And so I think that it's really important to sit down for yourself and think, “Okay, what is a realistic timeframe and ask.”
Stephanie Goss:
Because I will tell you too many times I have seen friends and colleagues go, “I've got to deal with this situation.” And six weeks later, eight weeks later, 12 weeks later, this person is still employed, still in the same position that they were in the beginning, because we haven't put a timely plan in place and we haven't acted on it and now we're three months in, and this person still doesn't have any more skills than they had on day one and now the rest of the team is pissed. And so I think for me, when I zoom out and think about this issue, that other than the pay challenge potentially blowing up in your face and I have some thoughts on how to look at that, I think the other piece of it is the timeliness.
Stephanie Goss:
And so for me, that is, “Hey, look, if you have somebody, if you actually have skill levels and expectations for skills in your practice, and you should, even if it's to minimally to say, licensed technicians in our state should be able to and are capable of doing X, Y, and Z. When we license technicians, there are things that we say they can do. And if you're using that as your baseline and this person isn't meeting up to the baseline, the question for you is how much time are you going to put on that? And I would caution, I would really caution any of my manager friends and would caution myself to say, this is something that I probably should have a plan to fix in 30 days or less, because the reality is if I can't fix this than 30 days or less, there's a bigger conversation that needs to be had here.
Stephanie Goss:
And that goes to your point, Andy, about sitting down with the person and saying, “Hey, this is what our level 2 or level 3 techs should be able to do. And you're at skill level 1, that is a big gap. And there's no way that we can bridge that gap in 30 days.” And so here's what a realistic plan might look like. The reality is, I think it's really important to zoom out and do that time assessment because it will not take the team long to get real mad, real fast if they don't feel like things are equitable amongst their peers. And so I think you need to look at the time piece of it. And so for me, the way that I would approach… We've gone out of head space because I think the head space is, we have to focus on the present and the future.
Stephanie Goss:
That's where we started. Focus on the here and now we can't do anything about what has already happened. We have to acknowledge for ourselves that they may have not been honest and or maybe they didn't understand or a combination of those things. So we're in a safe head space. We're assuming good intent. And we're going to have a conversation with them. And we're going to say, “Hey, this is what happened. We hired you, we had an expectation for a technician coming into our practice with a license to have X, Y, and Z set of skills. You told us that your skills were here.” Whether they told you verbally, they put it in writing in their resume. Like there's a whole bunch of ways that this could have gone sideways, but be very clear about how they indicated to you what their skillset was and where you are.
Stephanie Goss:
And then it's okay to say that based on your observations or interactions with them so far, you see a gap between those two things. And then I would ask them for their help. And I would say, “I need your help to figure out how we're going to approach this, because there are a variety of options here and it needs to be addressed.” There's no getting around to the fact that you have to address this both with them and the team. And so by asking for their help and asking them, it doesn't feel so close ended. It feels like they're a part of the solution. And then the conversation can be, are they skills deficient in a few areas where you might be able to get them from where they are now to where they need to be in a short period of time. Maybe.
Stephanie Goss:
And then, “Okay, here's the plan. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to pair you with our most experienced technician. We're going to get you into, whatever the deficiency area is, you can come up with a game plan for that. If you have a very vast canyon, which it sounds like this person does, between the skills and the expectation,” then I would say, “Looking at this list, this is more than we want to support you and we want to help facilitate this training. This is more than we can accomplish in a 30, 60, 90 day period.” Whatever that time period is, here's what I need to do.
Stephanie Goss:
I need to address the pay. I need to address your skill level. There has to be a plan because that is where I think it will go sideways very quickly with the team. Is if they feel like it's not being addressed in a timely manner and when there is discrepancy with the pay and it is okay to say to someone, “Hey, we brought you in with this expectation, the skill, the pay is tied to that expectation of skill level and we have a gap. And so until we bridge that gap, I can't pay you $50 an hour or $25 an hour or whatever top end of pay scale looks like for you. I can't pay you that. Because that is not where you are skill wise. And so here's what I can do to bridge that gap.” And offer them a plan.
Stephanie Goss:
So timely, you have to address the money. And then I think the last thing is you have to live up to your end of the bargain and you have to hold them accountable. And if you don't do one of those two things, it's going to fall apart. And so I think asking them to be a part of the solution, they may say no. And they may say, “Well, I don't want, I feel confident and if you don't believe me, fine. I'm going to leave.” They may say, “Well, I feel like I'm at this level.” And they may engage and argue like where you go next could look a million different ways, which it makes it kind of hard to tie this conversation up with a nice, pretty bow, because the response from that person is so variable.
Stephanie Goss:
But I think if you, as the manager say, “I'm acknowledging what has happened. Here's where we are today. Here's where I would like us to move in such short timeframe here, future, this is what I need from you to attack this plan. Can we do this together?” I think you're going to come out of that conversation with a lot more clarity and a lot more solutions. And at the end of the day, lucky for our colleague, they're in and at will state. And if it's not going to work out, it gives you the ability to cut and run to move on.
Stephanie Goss:
But I think there definitely are ways to approach it, but for me it would involve looking at the skills and being clear about this is the gap and specific, because that doesn't make it subjective. It doesn't make it, “Well, Sarah's been here for 10 years and she thinks you can't place catheters as well as she can. So she should be making more money than you.” That's the kind of thing that the team might be feeling those things, but that's super subjective and we need to move this conversation into the objective. Here's the skills, here's the gap, here's the pay that's tied to that. How do we move forward from this moment in time?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, No, I agree.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody, this is Stephanie. And I'm going to jump in here for one quick second and make sure that you know about a few things that are coming up, that I'm pretty sure you're not going to want to miss. But before I do that, I have to say thanks to a generous gift from our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital, we are now able to provide transcripts for all of our podcast episodes. And we have to just say, thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Andy and I have wanted to make the podcast more accessible and when we were pondering the idea of how do we make transcripts a thing, our friends at Bandfield stepped up in a big way and said, “Hey, we are striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the profession. This fits with that mission for us. And we would love to sponsor it.”
Stephanie Goss:
So the 2022 podcast episodes are all now being transcribed and brought to you by our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital. To check out the transcript and find out more about what Banfield is doing to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the vet profession, head over to unchartedvet.com/blog and you could find each one of the podcast episodes and a link to find out more about equity, inclusion, and diversity at Bandfield. And now I'm going to jump over and make sure that you know about some things that are coming up that I don't think that you're going to want to miss. You might not be the person who's in charge of marketing for your practice, if not write this down and pass it along. Because we are being joined by none other than the Bill Schroeder from InTouch Practice Communications.
Stephanie Goss:
Bill is amazing. He is wonderful, he is funny, he is kind and down to earth and he loves nothing more than working with veterinary practices and cheering them on about digital marketing. And Bill is joining us on Wednesday, June 8: Creating Content That Clients Crave from 7:00 PM to 9:00 PM ET, which is 4:00 PM to 6:00 PM PT. And he is talking about creating content that clients crave. He is going to teach us how to explore contents that are the most valuable and that have a huge impact and talk about proven methods for great content development. Bill did this workshop for us live, in-person previously and I said, “Hey, bill, I would love for you to bring this to the Uncharted Community, but also to veterinary medicine and beyond.” And he is doing just that on Wednesday, June 8th, if you would like to find out about this and all of the upcoming events from Uncharted, head on over to the website @unchartedvet.com/events and you'll be able to find all of the things that are coming, that you are not going to want to miss. Now back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
This is a really advanced leadership challenge. And here's why, because there's so much uncertainty around it. And I think a lot of people, it's hard for you and me to coach in this right now, because the long term is so unclear and this could go so many different ways. And so I think that it's oftentimes kind of frustrating for the people who hear this direction, but just try to bear with me here for a second. I agree with everything that Stephanie said, and you guys have heard us talk back and forth about this, and you've heard me say, “I don't know if it's going to work.” And I don't know if it's going to work. And I can tell you if the other person doesn't want it to work, it's not going to work. And I can also tell you, I don't have any control over whether or not that person wants it to work.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so people say, “Well, how's this going to end?” Then I go, “How?” And, “What are we going to do in a month?” I have no idea which you're going to do in the month. The frustrating thing is, you're going to go talk to this person and you're going to have your head straight and you're going to need to be nice, kind, I would like this relationship to be great, but you're going to need to be honest about what you need and where you are and unemotionally honest, meaning if they do what Stephanie mentioned, which is flip out and go, “How dare you. I could get this salary from 10 other practices in the area.” They might say that. And here's the other thing, they might be right. That does not change what your pay structure is, what you need in order to be fair to your team or what you need in order to balance the needs of all of your support staff and your clients and everything else, those things don't change.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so you are going to have to go talk to this person and explain your position and what you need and where you are. And then you're going to have to listen and see what they say. And they might get mad and they might say, “Okay, I hear you.” I don't know what they're going to say, but when they say it, you're going to need to roll out a plan and say, “Let's talk about how we're going to get you where we need to be.” And I think you should make that plan, but know that they might not want to do your plan. And you need to think about what that means. But the other thing is, I would say, I wouldn't overthink it until they tell me, “F your plan.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And when they say F your plan, then I'm going to say, “Okay, that's an interesting position.” I hear that. I'm going to need to sit with this response a little bit and come back to you. But you don't have to have all the answers and you don't have to know what you're going to do next, because there's no telling what they're going to say. So you have to know what your needs are. You need to talk to them about where your head's at, ask them how they're feeling, what they want to do, how you guys are going to move forward. And then you're going to have to step away and process. And ultimately, hopefully, they'll take your training plan to get where they need to go. And then you're going to try it. And it might work and yet might not work. My experience tells me, it'll be somewhere in between those two extremes, meaning it'll kind of work. I bet.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I bet they'll get better and they'll get closer to where you need. And then you'll need to reassess and be like, is this good enough? Are we moving fast enough? Are we going to reduce their compensation a little bit? Because they did make strides, but they didn't get where we needed. How are they going to respond to that? I have no idea. I don't believe there's more clarity than that. I think you are going to have to go through the process of trying this and seeing how the person responds and what they want to do. I don't think that there's a long term strategy other than what we said of be honest, tell them what you need, come up with a plan to get them where you need them to be, come up with metrics and checkpoints to assure that they actually are getting there, monitor the response of your team.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The only other action step that I would take honestly, is I would try to recruit some mentors, champions, allies from my team, meaning, can I do this training? And oftentimes if I can pull good technicians in and say, “Hey, this person's coming in, they're new, they're credentialed, I am working with them to get their skills up technically where we want them to be.” And I'd figure out how to say it based on what the response was from the individual. But I would like to recruit one or two of my techs to help mentor this person and bring them up.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That does a couple things. Number one, it can help get this person trained the way that they want to. And number two, it can take two of my strongest techs and get them off my back. You know what I mean? As far as this person's not where they are, it gives them some skin in the game and gets them involved in fixing the problem and also gets them to know this person a bit more, which might get them to give him or her a little bit more grace. And so I would kind of try to recruit some of those people into the process of training. Beyond that, I think you're just going to have to see how it goes and how they respond.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think something that you say a lot on the podcast and in general is really important here and kind of ties it all up, which is, clear is kind. And I think this is the case where you don't know how they're going to react, and if they blow a gasket, it's okay to say, “I understand that you feel like this doesn't work for you. I think that tells us everything that we need to know about the fact that this should be the time where we part ways. Because it's not going to work for you. And if you can't be agreeable to this, it's not going to work for us either. So we wish you the best of luck.” It makes it easy to have that conversation moving forward, being clear is kind. It's okay to say “There's some gaps here. There's some incongruency with what you told me.”
Stephanie Goss:
It's not about accusing them of lying. It's not about making them wrong or putting them on the defensive. It's about just saying, “Hey, here's what we need and how are we going to get there together?” And then wait and see what happens and what their response is. And when I say, wait and see, don't wait six months, don't wait 12 months. There has to be a plan. Or I promise you from my own painful, personal experience, your team will mutiny. Things will not turn out well for you.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that's why I said, we have to get okay with the idea, this is not going to work. Because the worst case scenario is very real here. And the worst case scenario for our manager friend is our manager friend and the leadership feels resentful. Because they feel misled and duped into hiring and that they're paying too much. And the person who is hired feels resentful because they feel like they're not being honored for their accomplishments, for their education, that they're not being paid what they deserve or that they are being paid what they're deserved and everybody's treating them like crap for it and so they're resentful. And the rest of the team is resentful because they think this person's been giving status that they do not deserve based on their actual ability to do the work and they're getting paid more than the rest of the staff and they're not delivering the results that the rest of the staff does.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so then you've got you feeling resentful, the higher feeling resentful and your team feeling resentful. That is the worst outcome. It is not worth that. And so when I say do what is kind, I mean do what is kind to the new hire, to yourself and to your staff. To me, that's, “Let's have a clear conversation and get this out in the open and then let's talk about what we're going to do. And if you are not willing to do that, I'm afraid that you run a very high risk of ending up with the resentment that we talked about.” The other thing is when we say what is kind, having this person come in and not communicating to them how you're feeling or what they need to do to keep their job and just sitting there behind the scenes going, “This is an at-will state and we can fire her. If it doesn't work, we're just going to fire her.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm like, that's not a kind thing to do to somebody. If her job's on the line, tell her, her job's on the line. Say it nicely, say it with empathy, but be honest with her about where she stands and then she'll either leave or she'll, get on board with doing what she needs to do to stay. But I'm just not a fan of not communicating to people where they're at and then just pulling the rug out from under. That doesn't feel bright to me.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. No, I agree.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Awesome.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh man. Well, this was one of those ones that I think, I hope that was helpful. It's one of those things where you can't really tie a bow on it and make it pretty because there is a million different ways that this could go. The reason that I wanted to have this conversation is because looking back like this is one of those conversations that I wish someone had had with me as a new manager of like, “You're going to get in these situations and you're going to have to figure out how to tackle it. And if you haven't faced something like this yet, you're lucky because you will.”
Stephanie Goss:
And I wish that someone had said, “It's okay to be human.” And say, “There's some gaps.” You think either you need to take responsibility forward. And to your point earlier in the episode, you take all the responsibility, which is not right either, because this other person involved had responsibility to share honestly, and openly and maybe they didn't understand, we're not going to question the intent there, but we are going to say, “This is where we're at and there's gap here. How do we fix this?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Well, look, that's why I say there's social media crowd, that's like, “You should have done this.” It's like, “Morons. I didn't need that.” Anyway and I say that because here's the God's honest truth, so hear this, okay. Running a bad business is making the same damn mistake over and over again. And running a great business is making a different damnedest mistake every day. That's it. That's the truth. And so the idea that you're supposed to get it all right and you don't make mistakes and people need to get kicked from making a mistake. That's just so dumb. And that just shows me that those people do not know what they're really talking about. When I see people doing that, I'm like, “You don't, if you were actually good at this, you would know that crapping on people like that is stupid.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Because it's going to happen to you. And the only thing is your bet, it's not going to end up on social media. And so anyway, that's it. But I hope people take that and really hear that. Because man, it took me a long time to realize that. And I'll just be honest and transparent right now was guys, I made mistakes today. Today I made mistakes. And it was things that I'll just tell you, I'm making a video for somebody. And I was like, “Okay, who is the guest that we're having on here? And how do you pronounce their name?” And I'm like, “I don't know how to say this person's name. And I'm supposed to record a video where it's going to be clear that I don't know how to say their name if we don't fix this.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And you would think after 10 years of making videos and five years of doing podcasts, that I would've gotten it down by now where we get a pronunciation of people's names, if I don't know them. And we just today, we were like, “You know what? We should figure out how to fix this so it doesn't happen again.” And that literally happened 10 minutes before we got on this podcast. And do I feel terrible about it? Do I feel stupid? The answer is no, because I've been doing it for 10 years and we do just fine, making mistakes, not getting upset about them and then just fixing them so they don't happen again. And so guys, I want to leave you with that thought, two thoughts. Number one, success in your career is continuing to make mistakes. And if you never make mistakes, you are not doing enough and you are not trying new things. It is make mistakes and make them once, that is success. That's the first thing I want to say. And the second thing is, shut up social media. Shut it.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, and we're off this soapbox.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we're done. That's it. If you'll excuse me, I have to go check my Facebook account. No, I don't.
Stephanie Goss:
Have a fantastic week everyone.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Take care everybody, don't post anything on social media. We'll start a movement here. We're going to put Facebook out of business by encouraging people in our audience tonight. All right. Okay. I'm done. I'm good. See you everybody.
Stephanie Goss:
Bye. Gang, that's wrap on another episode of the podcast and as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find a mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag. Or you can email us podcast@unchartedvet.com Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
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