This manager faces challenges with constant corrections from a perfectionist team member, causing tension within the team. Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss dive deep into managing perfectionist tendencies in a veterinary setting, highlighting the importance of empathy, open communication, and objective management. They explore how the veterinary education system can contribute to perfectionist behaviors and discuss strategies for balancing high standards with team harmony. This episode is packed with action items for any practice owner, manager, leader or veterinary team member who might be dealing with a similar situation. Let's get into this episode…
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss: Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted podcast. And this week on the podcast, Andy and I are diving into the mailbag because we've got a question from a manager who's wondering, how do you performance manage someone who has perfectionist tendencies? They mean well, but the constant corrections are starting to take a toll on the team.
This one's got a sprinkle of maybe some toxic positivity and a whole lot of fun. Let's get into it.
Dr. Andy Roark: And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only Stephanie. I don't deserve this. You look perfect tonight. Gosh. Oh boy.
Stephanie Goss: Oh yes, I, I like it. I like it.
Dr. Andy Roark: Well, you know, we're, we're talking perfectionism today. And I was like, I don't know. That's just, that's what came into my mind. Uh,
Stephanie Goss: I'm definitely, definitely, definitely not looking perfect. Although my “cloffice” is shaping up very nicely.
Dr. Andy Roark: You're, yeah, you don't look, she's in, she's in her pajamas in her closet, uh, and I'm
Stephanie Goss: I have actually gotten dressed today. It is late enough when we're doing this.
Dr. Andy Roark: That's, no, it looks good, it's good. The cloffice, I love it.
Stephanie Goss: The “cloffice” is, uh, is looking good. Uh, how's it going Andy Roark?
Dr. Andy Roark: It's, it's crazy. It's completely insane, just so you know. Uh, the world, the world is nuts. And I just, I, I've been sitting today. You know, sometimes I try to write things and they just don't go anywhere.
And that was this morning. Of like, it's really hard to believe sometimes that you just sit and you work and you work and you work and then you throw the whole thing away It's like it's hard to believe that's progress. I think I think it is. I think you have to work through it, but I've got this crazy idea that it's not. It's not going into the box.
I want it to go into but I'm gonna try it out on you. First of all, I gotta give you some culture so you can understand The high level of idea that I have here. And so how much do you know about professional wrestling?
Stephanie Goss: Absolutely. Absolutely zero.
Dr. Andy Roark: That can't be true. You have a theater background. You don't know anything about professional wrestling? Oh, I'm gonna change
Stephanie Goss: and I have three brothers.
Dr. Andy Roark: I'm gonna change your life. I could see you becoming a massive professional wrestling fan.
Stephanie Goss: My context for professional wrestling, my context for professional wrestling is Hulk Hogan.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh yeah. Okay. So you're, you're, you are old school. Which is– just look, I mean you're all about hugging. You definitely, you like dramatic entrances. You um, you get into costumes like you are basically there if just a little taste for violence and you are. Right where you need to be to appreciate that. Okay, let me so I am not a huge current professional wrestling fan meaning I have not watched professional wrestling in a long time I watch the commercials when they come on with interest but um, but in the 90s like when The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin like I was there and then I grew up with Hulk Hogan and Rowdy Ruddy Piper and those guys and so I was a male in the south growing up and so that's it.
Okay, so in professional wrestling. It's it is over the top You Soap opera theater, right? It is over the top. And so the bad guys are Horribly bad. They have to be bad enough that everybody is okay with violence being committed against them Like, you know, like like we have to feel good that this person's being beaten with a chair That's how bad they have to be and we love to switch sides meaning we love to have people who are the worst and then they You know turn and they become the good guy.
They betray the other bad guys, and we cheer for that person, and we hate when the good guy turns evil and betrays the other good guys, and then we hate that person more than anyone else. And it's all about the bad guys doing bad guy stuff so that the good guys can come running in from the back and just reap justice on the bad guys doing bad guy stuff.
And the crowd goes absolutely ballistic and like, this is, this is the essence of professional wrestling. The reason I'm talking about all of this is..
Stephanie Goss: I was wondering where going with this.
Dr. Andy Roark: I have been spending some time on VETstagram, which is the VET part of the Instagram world. And you know what I see in VETstagram all day, every day?
It's all, it's all professional wrestling. All of it. I was watching. I was just, I was just absolutely like, like just, just staring and I was like, okay, so here's the story Goss. There were these pet owners and I don't know if they're real. It doesn't matter? Nope, like it's, it's probably not, but there were these pet owners, and apparently they were really mean to this vet tech when it was talking, when, when they wanted the pet's nails trimmed, and so everybody's like, boo, and then the practice owner for the vet clinic was like, we're not gonna trim nails anymore, we're not doing it, and everybody's like, yeah, and then, the trolls came out, and they're like, that's your job, you have to trim these nails.
And are those people real? I can't imagine they are, but there they were in the comments. And then, the vet people, they circled up, and they came charging in from the back with their chairs, and just cleaned house on the trolls, and there were so many comment section was complete, like someone was thrown to a virtual table on the comment section and all of the good guys high fived and just the crowd went nuts.
And that happened on VETstagram that I was, that I was watching. And then I saw another one where there was this technician who was posting and she was like, I'm all about technician utilization. And then there were some doctors and they were in the comments and they were like, yes, we are too. But then it turned out that those doctors actually did stuff like drew blood by themself.
And the techs that knew the doctors, they came running in. And they were like, You don't really do this because I saw you draw blood and Shannon was standing there watching and you don't and then the vets were like, Oh, hold on a second because we're fighting burnout because we're not letting our technicians work alone.
And then a bunch of vets came running out of the back and they were just cleaning house and throwing people out of the ring. And it was just, I was watching and I was like, this is amazing. And now, I can't, I don't, I'm struggling to put that into a 500 word blog post.
Stephanie Goss: I wonder why.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think more people should know about this because I was just standing there and I was just, I was like, this is bananas. It's bananas.
Stephanie Goss: Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark: The internet, the internet vet world, just so you know, I had this other thought, again, I'm, I'm weaving things together here. The internet vet world is like Neverland.
It is Neverland because it only exists if you believe in it if you log off and you're like these people are all nuts and they are not representative of the people I see in my day. That world is not real. It ceases to exist. You don't, it does not come into your practice but if you believe in it, you can go there and you're like and then somebody said trimming nails is your job and you have to get in there and do your job and shut up.
That that world only exists if you believe it exists and you choose to go and be there because it's not it's not real. It's not real unless you really want it to be and me. I haven't been on vestagram in a long time. I was just like I was like I, this is the other part I felt like Rip Van Winkle, you know when you fall asleep for 20 years and you wake up in the world, it is completely different.
I was like, I was talking to my friend and she was all into it, and I was like, what is this vet medicine that you are talking about? Because I don't know these people. And she was like, get on TikTok and you'll meet 'em. And I'm like, you mean go to Neverland? That's what you mean. You gotta believe and you go to Neverland and then you too can deal with people who hate you because of the dog food you recommend.
Stephanie Goss: Oh my goodness, okay, so what I'm
Dr. Andy Roark: So anyway, it's been a day. It's been a day.
Stephanie Goss: I don't even know how we record after that.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think we should take a break. We should take a break here. This might just be the episode right here. Just let's just call this week 32 and just cap it. I think we should take a break. I think we should take a break here and let you, let you collect yourself.
Stephanie Goss: Okay, so, um, The reason that you said that I look like perfection this morning when I absolutely do not, uh, is that we've got a mailbag about, about perfectionist, uh, a perfectionist person, and it's interesting because uh, I read this mailbag and I was like, oh, this is going to be one of those episodes where people are like 100%. This is my clinic, right? They're talking about my clinic.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, sure.
Stephanie Goss: because I immediately recognized this person. and. It couldn't possibly be because I've been this person. so we had an email from a manager who was like, Hey, I have, I'm struggling with performance management and in two particular ways.
I have a member of my team who is. Uh, someone who has perfectionist tendencies and they mean well, they love their teammates, they have, they really truly mean well, and the constant corrections and the constant it's never good enough is taking a toll on the team. And as a result of that, this manager is like, it is in my problem.
It is in my lap to deal with as a problem because the team is super frustrated. And so they are wondering like, how do I manage this specifically? And then how do I deal with everyone doing the toxic positivity thing where like, it's all fine. It's all going to be fine. It's, you know, the world is great.
It's fine and dandy when they are not actually feeling that way. In fact, they're feeling very frustrated. And I thought, and so I thought, Hey, that's a, that's a really good one. Let's, let's, let's get into that.
Dr. Andy Roark: This is a really good one. Um, management of perfectionists is one of the number one things that we get asked about. It is, um, and I have, I have theories and I can't, I can't totally back this up. But, um, but there, there are theories. So, one of the things I can say for true is, so, I've talked to a number of different vet schools, and a lot of them won't share information with me, um, because I'm just some random guy who's calling the vet school.
But, um, But, you know, you and I teach DISC, uh, communication styles, and, uh, if you don't know about DISC or you'd like a primer in DISC, our Uncharted Leadership Essentials Certificate, which is free to Uncharted members and available for purchase on Vetfolio, um, we do a whole program on DISC and it's led by Stephanie Goss, and so you can learn more about DISC there.
Anyway, if you're into DISC, um, I have heard, again, this is anecdotal because it's a couple different vet schools that sort of put, put, gave me this information, but they, they wouldn't put it in writing, but just generally talking to people. It's my understanding that about 80 percent of vet students coming out of vet school are either C personality types or S personality types, or communication styles, sorry.
Uh, the S, uh, communication style is definitely the go along to get along, we want everybody to be okay, uh, personality. And the C is the conscientious personality type that wants to get the right answer. They want to make sure the details are done, you know, they, think of your, think of your of your editors, the ones who were like, I'm reading for sentence structure.
This needs to be right. Um, I'm going to fix these things. Uh, have we fact check this blah, blah, blah. This is the, one of the big reasons that you have veterinarians who say, show me the data, show me the data. Part of it is just how, how we are. I would say that. process of training veterinarians, it favors perfectionist personalities.
It is about can you get A pluses? Can you get the right answer again and again? And so people who are perfectionists tend to be well suited to climb the academic ladder, which is required to be a veterinarian. Now, um, it's not to dunk on on perfectionists or whatever, but what, That tendency will make you successful in the academic part of that medicine up until you graduate.
But then I think it genuinely makes life very hard once you have gotten out and you have graduated. And so I've got an article that I have, that I did actually write and it's coming out and I kind of meant it for new graduates and I was thinking about it. You know, I think when I graduated from vet school, I thought that I had acquired enough correct answers that when I, by the time I graduated, I would have clarity in the cases that were put before me, meaning I got a bunch of stuff right in the 9th grade, in the 12th grade, and then in college, and then in vet school, and I have taken so many tests that ultimately I have clarity.
But that's not how the word works. The way the world works is that easy questions get solved by the basic front line people and harder questions kind of move past those people. And so, especially now with the internet and people being able to Google things and YouTube, a lot of very basic things are just, we never even see them anymore.
And so the problem is in that medicine you train and train and train yourself up to the point where your job is not telling people what is good and what is bad. It is choosing between two objectively bad options. It is trying to do one thing when you do not have the resources to do that thing. And I think the reason I wrote this was I think that my gift to young vets is I got there and felt like I was the only person who thought that they were going to have clarity and did not have clarity.
And I was the only one who thought because I felt like I was wandering around trying to find an acceptable solution that I was failing. And the reality is, our training qualifies us simply to be the one who holds the torch in the darkness so that we can search for the answer and help other people find a path when there is no obviously correct path, and if there was, they wouldn't need us. So anyway, um, there's sort of that. I think that that's particularly hard on perfectionists. And I think, because of our training, I think we have a lot of perfectionists. And so I think that we have a lot of perfectionists, and I think that there are things about vet medicine that are very hard on perfectionists.
And I just, as, um, I don't know, that's just sort of one of the things about, about managing people. It's also just about being a person. I think you and I have both worked with people who have really been at war with themselves because they wanted perfection in situations where perfection is just not an option.
It's just not available. And so I think that there's, there's a, there's a lot there. So we get asked a lot about that. The toxic positivity part I think is interesting. I think it's a very separate question. Um, and I think we'll, I think we'll split them apart a little bit. Yeah, I think we'll split them apart a little bit, cause I, I, I can definitely get up on a big soapbox.
I don't know if we're gonna have time to unpack the toxic positivity part as much as I want, but, but we'll definitely touch on it.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah. That sounds good. Maybe we'll get, maybe we'll get three podcast episodes out of this one.
Dr. Andy Roark: Exactly.
Stephanie Goss: We'll get our professional wrestling.
Dr. Andy Roark: Let's, now, well we gotta get this thing on the, Goss stop, stop stalling us here, we gotta get focused.
Stephanie Goss: Okay. Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark: Alright, so, uh, managing the perfectionist, your head, your head space is vital here. Because you are going to, you're going to engage with this person, who for God's sakes is doing her absolute best to get it right.
And I say her, it could be anybody, but. Let's just say her, um, who they are trying really hard. This person is not having problems because they don't care. They're having problems because they care a lot. And so, you're going to have to get into a healthy, patient frame of mind. In order to, to manage this problem.
So one of the big things I would say up front at headspace is get centered, get in a place where you can be empathetic and where you can try to approach this person in good spirits. Do not wait until things blow up and you're angry because the staff is in an uproar, like this is the thing where you would like to work on with low stakes, low stress. This is going to take some time. This is not going to be a flip the switch. And this person with a perfectionist personality is going to recognize yeah, that they need to do things differently and just 100 percent change their way of existing in the world. That's not going to happen.
Also recognize that this is not going to be a uh, Um, one person fixes themself. This is going to have to be a migration of the team where we can try to meet in the middle a little bit and find outlets for the person who wants to push us to a higher standard of care to be able to do so without.
Exhausting the people who are, uh, having to carry out the work. You know what I mean? Or who don't, aren't necessarily bought into the level of care or they, who don't think that the pet owners can pay for the level of care. And you and I talk about that sometimes too. This can even be a values conflict.
And so I, you know, one of the, one of the values conflicts that I've seen in practice that is very hard to manage is if you have a doctor. Let's just say who, um, whose core value is the highest standard of care is what they care about. Like that is something they value as a person and they go to work in a practice where accessibility to care and every patient gets care is a core value.
Those two values can bump heads. And I'm not saying that one of them is right and one of 'em is wrong, but it's very hard to say. I only want the highest level of care, and then you're saying I want to make sure that every single pet that comes in these doors gets taken care of. Those two things can really conflict, and it's very hard to reconcile those.
It can also be flipped. I have seen practices that are like, we are the highest standard of care practice, and the veterinarian that's like, I don't want to I want to make this happen for anyone who walks in the door. And I don't want to tell people, I'm sorry, you should go somewhere else because you don't have the resources to do what we do here.
Um, That those things are very, they are very challenging, which is why I said, we have got to get in a good headspace and just start to work on this with the stakes are low and try to try to find a path together, because this can be very challenging to navigate. And sometimes it, sometimes it just doesn't work.
Sometimes it's just a. bad fit. Um, I hope it's not that, but, but let's start down the path. And ultimately, if we do this right, we'll have a, we'll have a good action plan. And if we walk through that action plan and, and the two sides just can't reconcile, this just might be a bad cultural fit. And I hate that, but it's possible, but I don't like to guess at those things.
I like to go through a process and explain what's happening. And ultimately, I will know what is kind, because if we have done all the steps and this person is still not getting along with the team, that person's not happy, the team is not happy, us continuing to be together is not the kindest thing for anybody.
And that makes all of this much more palatable to me.
Stephanie Goss: I think that the reason that the headspace, uh, of, getting, getting Zen, getting calm is so important is because this is a really, can be a really slippery slope as a manager. Um, if you don't see the tendencies in this person, the same way that the rest of the team is seeing them currently, it can be very easy.
To let the team unload their frustration and their anger and their feelings about the situation on you. And it is very, very slippery slope because it is very easy to then skew your perception and start looking at that person through the lens of the team's feelings. And it makes you an unobjective observer in this scenario.
And that's really, really important. That's really dangerous here because you have to be able to walk the line between empathy to both sides, to the rest of the team, and to this team member who is trying their heart out, and if you are in the position where you are starting to look at that person and judge them through the lens of the team's frustration, it becomes very hard to remain objective.
So I think taking the step back for yourself. And sorting out how you feel about the situation. and doing something to remind yourself, figuring out how to remind yourself, What do I know about this person? I know that this person is good. I know that they are kind. I know that they have the team's best interest at heart.
I know that they are trying really hard. You know, like you said in the beginning, This person is trying so hard and they're, they're trying so hard is what is ultimately frustrating the team. And that should be looked at through a positive lens, not a negative one. And so as a manager, I think you need to figure out how to write down some of those notes for yourself to say, this is what I know is true about this person, so that you can look back at it because it is very easy to find yourself in this process in a place where you're like, Oh, that person is driving me freaking nuts.
Even if you didn't think that way before the team said something about it,
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, I think you're spot on. I would tell you that has been a personal development goal of mine over the last couple of years. I think I've come a long way. He's been very hard to get to get Zen because your team comes to you with their frustrations and feelings, and I tend to be pretty naturally empathetic and empathetic.
And so I. I will absorb those feelings, and then it just makes my job of actually dealing with the situation much, much harder. Jumping back to professional wrestling, it really is. I mean, we've had the experience, the team comes to you and they're like, And then, she said this, and that's when we knew that, and can you believe that?
And like, you can feel them winding up. And if you And, and if you aren't careful, they will, they will wind you up because they want you to come charging into the ring with a chair and to, and to vanquish the villains that are there. Like that's, and again, this is not, it's not manipulative. It's just human nature as we, we get started and we wind up and we get frustrated and we get a willing audience and, and venting feels good.
And, you know, and, and, um, and people will come to you as the boss and, and lay these things down and you just, jumping back to the professional wrestling metaphor, You, you have to lean back and watch the spectacle without getting sucked into the, the, the frenzy that's there. And that is, that is really hard.
And so anyway, I, I think that you're, I think you're spot on. I, I think in order to have a good headspace here, whenever I, I, I'm sort of managing a perfectionist personality, it's really important to me that I assume positive intent. And what that means is assuming that this person has some valid ideas, and that they are really are trying things for the best.
And it is. Possible that maybe they've gone a little bit far with this or or I mean again I I have been frustrated with teams before and just been like I am going to push this idea through And if people don't do it, I'm going to make them uncomfortable Until they do it and that is I can I can I can understand that mentality of, um, I want to be fear free, and if you're not going to be fear free, I'm going to give you crap about it, and I'm going to say something to you to make you uncomfortable, uh, you know, because you're not doing the thing that I want to do.
And if you buy into the importance of fear free, then you're like, maybe that's justified. It's not. It's not the right way to do things. It's not how we get people to buy in. It's not how we build a culture that is happy and feel safe and feels, um, like they have a voice. But if I can at least respect the person's desire to advocate for pets and what they're trying to do and validate that desire, I'm starting to make steps towards being able to work with this person.
Stephanie Goss: I was just going to say, I think on the flip side of the assuming good intent, I think the, the, it brings the other piece of the slippery slope for me in terms of being the coach in this scenario, which is you are going to have to do the footwork to bring empathy to the perfectionist on behalf of the team, because you are going to have to do the work to get them to be able to see the that they are going to have to pick their battles because when you meet in the middle, it means both sides have to move.
And so that person who is the perfectionist is going to have to get to the place where they let go of some things. And that is very, very hard work. Um, as a recovering, as a recovering perfectionist, um, being able to say, Good is good enough and I'm going to let go and I'm going to step back like that is very hard and so as the coach you are going to have to help them assume good intent about their teammates just because they're not doing it the way that they would do it does not mean that they should be.
Don't think they're worth is the work is doing worth doing it doesn't mean that they don't have the pets or clients best interest at Heart it doesn't mean that they don't want the job done They are just doing it differently and you're gonna have to coach them to that place and so being able to be objective for yourself about that and assume good intent is Really really powerful tool for helping get that person to assume good intent on behalf of the team.
Dr. Andy Roark: Absolutely. And I think you also have to approach this, and when you talk to this person, the perfectionistic doctor, you need to seek to understand. Do not make assumptions about why they're being a perfectionist. Assumptions are your, are your enemy here. You do not want to believe, you think you're better than us.
And it is very easy to tell yourself stories when we're managing a perfectionist person about, you don't think we're good enough, you don't think we're smart enough, you don't, you know, you don't understand what our clients are dealing with, whatever. Don't you need to seek first understand and the reason you really need to do that one is so you can understand what this person cares about so we can have a productive conversation, but then two, you're going to have to change teams just so you know, and then you're going to have to go back and you're going to have to have the same conversation with the rest of the team, which means when you talk to the perfectionist, you're going to need to advocate for the team, and then because we're probably going to end up meeting in the middle, you are going to have to go back to the team and advocate for that doctor the same way of these are the points.
These are the things that are important. These are the changes that we're going to commit to making and how we're going to commit to making them. And a lot of times, again, this goes to headspace. It it's not all or none. And a lot of times meeting in the middle, people think, Oh, we're going to halfway do everything this person wants.
You know, that's not what I mean. It's about, it's a, it's about when we have someone on our team who wants to move the practice forward, even if we don't think it's how we move forward, it's about getting intentional. And saying, let, let's try some things, what are the things that are most important to you?
Is it the way we're doing surgery? Is it the way that we're taking histories in the exam room? Is it way we're leveraging our support staff? What is the most important thing? And we will talk about how we can work on that. The most important thing. And then we'll see how this goes. And then we'll work on the next thing.
But it can't be a full frontal assault of we're gonna fix all these things. We're gonna change all these things. And so a lot of times, and that's also much more palatable to the team is to say, All right, our doctor is gonna lean back on some of these things, and we're gonna work instead on our work.
Uh, anesthesia space prep, you know, pre surgical intake, you know, programs, and that's where we're going to work. And that way you can feel like you're giving this person attention, you're letting them work on something, the practice is getting better, but it's not a constant, we're getting criticized in
Stephanie Goss: About all the things. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: there's that, there's that, there's that intentional. One of the big things, and we have this conversation again, this is a headspace as well, but I am going to go and talk to this person. I need to seek first to understand. I need to understand what is driving this. And then I want to focus the conversation on what we agree on, like what, You say this is important to you, this is really important to us.
Let's find as much commonality as possible. Because a lot of times the perfectionist feels like no one cares but them.
Stephanie Goss: Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark: And I do not want them to believe that. I need to, without calling it out, I want to make them understand. You and I are largely on the same page. Like we, we want this and, and honestly, just hearing them and have them hear you about what you're trying to do can often bridge that gap and make that person not feel so alone, which makes them often more open to taking some feedback and meeting in the middle.
If they feel like there's nothing in common, it's really hard to meet in the middle. Cause that's usually a chasm. And so we're going to meet in the middle of this chasm. Like that's not good. Um, We want to do that. I think, um, asking for, uh, for input on how things with the team are going is a good way to open this up.
And it's because the team has come and they said, well, this person is, you know, criticizing this and that. And the other thing,
Stephanie Goss: right. Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark: to tell ourself a story. This person is, is frustrated. They're angry. They're unhappy. Maybe they are. Maybe they're not. I think a good opening to the conversation, I mean, how do you feel like things are going with the team?
Um, Are you are you feeling well supported? Are you feeling frustrated in your interactions? Talk to me just a little bit about about about day to day working with the team how you're feeling
Stephanie Goss: Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark: And that's and now at this point the person kind of knows something up That's still okay because i'm not i'm not trying to trap them I just want to kind of understand how they're feeling about their interactions with the other staff members And if they say I feel great.
I really like this them, then this is a different conversation. This is, oh, they have the perception that they're failing you or that you think that they're failing them. And now this is a conversation about how we're communicating, presenting ourself. If the person says, I'm really unhappy with the team, I feel like they're lazy and they don't want to work hard.
I don't. Okay. Tell me more about that. What does that look like? Why do you, why do you have that impression? Can you give me any specific examples? And this is also because I'm going to have to flip this back and talk to the team. I need to understand what this person's saying, and I'm not trying to trap them.
I'm trying to understand so that I can talk to them. Is it true that you guys are doing this? And I will tell you the number of times that someone on the team has come to me And pointed a finger at someone else And then I do some investigation and I'm like Go back to the first person who was the original finger pointer and say Did you really say these things?
And they're like, well, yes, but I was like, you precipitated all of this And then you came and told me other people were villains When you in fact We're the one who hit your friend with a chair from behind and became a bad guy.
Stephanie Goss: Those are the, those are the moments of joy for a manager where you have to look at yourself in the mirror or sometimes in your therapist's office and say, am I, am I. Managing a team of of toddlers that can't talk to one another because
Dr. Andy Roark: You are. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. You are.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah,
Dr. Andy Roark: You are. They're all children, including us. We're all children. Everyone is 11 years old inside. And just, if you just accept that, it is so much easier.
Stephanie Goss: Yes, and it it is true, and I don't mean that in a belittling way, like our, you know, our team is children, but the reality is that most of us stop communication training at a childhood level. And so when you think about working with your team, the communication skills that most of us have are childhood level, and we have got to figure out how to do that.
get them to talk to one another. And it's interesting, you know, you were saying, um, asking the, the perfectionist, you know, opening wide and asking them how things are going. And you mentioned needing to talk to the team and, and deal with the flip side as well. And I think that's really, really important.
You have to, as the manager in the situation, the big part of the responsibility that sits in your hands is figuring out what the stories being told are, because there's always at least two sides to every story, and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle, and you have to figure out, is it closer to the one side than the other?
Is it in the middle of a chasm or is it like in the middle ish and close to a bridge, right? Like where, where do things really stand? And so I think, um, the key for me for this from trying to look at the commonality is where is everybody standing now? Because that's going to help you game plan the action steps for how do I actually The story is that they're on total opposite sides and you can observe that with your own eyes.
You have significantly more work to do to try and get them into the middle. But if they're standing close ish to each other and there's some mild disagreement there, then That's a lot easier to approach and manage, and that's part of your discovery processes as a manager, and I think that's why I love your approach to just start wide and start gathering information, because this is not something that you try and solve overnight.
This is the thing that you have to have the casual conversations, you have to gather the info, and then you have to do some observing on your own part, really, if you're going to handle this well, because the best thing is to not be able to say, well, the team is telling me this. The best thing is to be able to sit down with both sides and have the conversation and say, Hey, yesterday when I was hanging out at the front desk and chatting with everybody, I noticed that you did this.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: I noticed that the team's reaction to it was this. Tell me more about how you were feeling when that happened, right? Like, it feels radically different if I can present them that example as a manager from my own observations, rather than relying on the he said, she said, front versus back, you know, all of that.
That's where a lot of us come from. as managers struggle is we bring it to somebody. And to your point, how many times have you gotten the story? And then you go back to the person who told you the story in the first place. And it's like, that's not the actual story that I'm getting. You know, you left out a big piece.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. One of, one of my favorite phrases here as well during this exploratory phase is, um, Why, why is that so important to you? Like this, this seems to be really important to you. Help me understand for you, why is this so important? Like, what is, what is it that, that makes this so valuable?
That our practice behave this way? And you can learn a lot about the person that way. And that will, those ultimately, they give you a lot of tools. Tools to work with and understand where these behaviors are coming from and what this person cares about, and that helps you kind of negotiate with them on what we're going to do and what we're kind of not going to do and, and what can you be happy about us doing first, or what can you be happy about us focusing on this year, um, and to try to get them that place.
The last thing I'm going to put down in headspace here is this, and I hate to kind of add it, but I think it is important. There is one. type of showdown with sort of a perfectionist personality that I found to be particularly challenging. And again, I, where are you sharing this? Because if I, when I tell people this, oftentimes they can jump and go, Oh, yep, that's what I'm dealing with.
And I'm like, I just, I want you to go through the process of trying to understand the person. There is a way of looking at the world that I call the moral lens or the justice lens. And where in my experience, this can get really tricky is if there is someone who says, um, Providing the highest level of care or doing it this way is the morally correct thing to do.
Um, that is really hard to deal with. And so let, let me, um, let me try to frame this up. So example would be, um, if I said, why is that so important to you? And they say, because it's the right way to do it. And I would say, are you open to, to looking at alternative ways to do it, or are you open to, uh, letting the technicians do it the way they've done it previously, just because they're trained that way, they're comfortable that way, and they say to me something like, if you cared about pets, you would do it this way.
And that's an extreme case. But I have run into that, and I think that that is a really difficult mindset. It's a just, it's sort of the justice mindset is. It's, it's the, it's the pet owner saying, if you cared about pets, you would do it for free. It's, it's, I have run into people in vet medicine who are like, if you cared about pets, you would be fully fear free certified.
And I'm like, ooh, you, you're attacking my ethics. You're attacking my ethics because I didn't because our practice doesn't do this program not a slam on the program There's a million reasons that a practice would not be fear free certified. They would have other things to do again I'm using fear free as an example, but um, but when you say the only the only Possible excuse for you not doing this is you don't care or you're just trying to make money.
That is, um, one, that's, that's hurtful. It's bad communication on the part of the doctor. I hope they don't really feel that way. But if someone takes up that position, it is very hard to get them to meet you in the middle.
Stephanie Goss: Well, it's assuming bad intent on the other person's side, no matter, no matter what. It's a no. It's a no-win situation. There's no, there is no, there's no compromise and. In that situation, because no matter what you do, unless you do what that person wants, they're holding you hostage. It's like the emotional hostage, uh, you know, tactics that clients take with the front desk and that, that emotional blackmail.
I think a lesser, a less extreme version of that too is, is the team members. And I offer this because I think we've all had experience working with this person to some degree, is the person who truly believes. But there's only one right way to do it.
Dr. Andy Roark: yes.
Stephanie Goss: are some things in veterinary medicine where there is a right way to do it, and that is it.
And veterinary medicine is nothing but shades of grey. And there are so many things that we do all day, every day, that have different degrees of correctness. And it's not wrong if someone does it differently. And if you have that person where they truly believe there is only one right way to do it, that is really tricky.
And I love your, your, your asking them, Andy, like, um, to tell you more about that, because I think it helps open up the doors to, is this perfectionist? Like, are they assuming that that's what you want? Not because they've been told that that's what you want, but because that's what they think makes a good job.
Like, is this a place where you can teach them, hey, there's more than one way to do this. And I'm okay with either way, as long as the job gets done. And I can't tell you how many times I've had that conversation. in particular with my front desk team, where I've said to them, Oh, yeah, I mean, you could do it that way.
I might do it this way, a third way, but realistically, I don't care which way any of you do it as long as the job gets done. And I have had them look at me and say, you know, like, I think that sometimes that we rush through so many things with our team, and we don't lay out those expectations. I think a big part of this conversation, at least with the perfectionists in particular, is Is this something that they are, is this another story that they're telling themselves in their, he in their head?
Is there only one right way to do it? Did someone actually tell them that? Or is this something that they have assumed and made a leap between what they know and what they think?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I agree. Let's, uh, let's take a quick break here and then we're gonna hammer out these action steps on, on how we go forward from here.
Stephanie Goss: Sounds good.
Hey everybody, it's Stephanie and I am here because we have launched registration for our Practice Owner Summit 2024. And if you are a practice owner, I want you to make sure that you are going to be joining us in Atlanta for this event because as a practice owner, either you run the day or the day runs you.
And so we are coming together to help you Make your business something that works for you instead of you working for it. Because practice ownership is a high wire act. You are always balancing everything that you do is being watched and judged by the clients and the team. And so nobody feels those missteps and the failures more than the owner.
And at the same time, the rewards of having something that you own and that you ultimately have responsibility for the successes over is incredibly intense and rewarding. And so we are pulling together some of our favorite people in veterinary medicine to have a practice owner summit that is designed to Build a network for you of your fellow practice owners, get you guys working together on the challenges that your businesses are facing and be able to provide insight on some topics that might support a specific practice ownership goals.
So it is happening December 5th through the 7th. We are going to Atlanta. We're not in Greenville this year. We're going to be in Atlanta at a new venue for us. We're going to be at the Switch Yards downtown. Super excited. It's a cool, funky, hip place and I can't wait to, uh, to explore it with everybody.
This is a two and a half day program. So we are there the 5th, of December. And we're going to do what we do. We're going to have choose your own adventure sessions. We're going to have some activities. We're going to have some time to really truly get into it with our fellow practice owners and talk about the joys, some of the pitfalls and problem solve some of those challenges that we face as practice owners.
So head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/events And now back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark: All right. So as I said, I think this is a two part process. The first thing is we're going to talk to the veterinarian, and then we're going to have to go back and talk to the team and advocate for the veterinarian so that everybody is going to give everybody else a chance. And it has to be both sides.
It's not that the veterinarian is going to be humbled and go back to the team with his hat in his hands. Um, it's like, you know, let's hear this person and support them, and then let's go back to the other team and hear them, and then talk about how we meet in the middle. Okay. Um This is a little bit different because it's the paraprofessionals, the support staff, talking about a doctor.
If this is a intra technician or even intra doctor conflict where they're going, Well, I don't like the way that this person does it. Um, I am wary about solving other people's problems. I really like them to try to work it out as grown ups and, um, my first step often would be like, Well, let's have a, let's have a technician meeting and let's talk about this and how we feel.
And, and the nice thing is that I, I can mediate, but I am not the errand boy who is running back and forth between these two groups, begging them both to like each other. It's like, no, we're gonna, we're gonna sit down together and do this like grown ups. Again, that is different when it's, the texts are, feel like the doctor is giving them constant negative feedback.
I think that's, that's different. Um, remember that you're not going to be able to work with this person, the perfectionist, until you validate all the good things they're doing and the good reasons behind what they're doing and point out all the things that you agree on and make them feel appreciated for their efforts to improve the hospital.
And that needs to be genuine, but you need to try to get to that point where you're, where you are agreeing with the things you can agree with and you are thanking them. For pushing to make the practice better because in their mind that is that is what they're doing
Stephanie Goss: Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark: be really wary of pointing out Failures, right?
You didn't do this um I'm a much bigger fan with my perfections of pointing out successes and then talk about what even better
Stephanie Goss: Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark: or talk about how good a job we did and what the next step looks like or where I'd like to see us go in the next six months. And that might be That might not make sense when I say it, but it's a difference in saying, Hey, look, Stephanie, you know, your, your interactions with the staff are not good.
And we need to fix them. If Stephanie is a perfectionist, this is devastating. If I say, Stephanie, um, I really appreciate your help yesterday with, uh, Bobo Jenkins. And, um, I, I really like the way that you sort of, uh, worked with the staff and, and, and did some training and stuff as, as we went forward. I think where I would like to see in the next six months, I'd like to see you continue to strengthen that relationship with the support staff.
Um, I think that you're a great teacher, and I think that, I think that maybe the staff sometimes feels intimidated. And I, I, I'd like to see you working more sort of collegially in a, in a way where we're really taking advantage of your knowledge. And they're feeling like. And they're feeling like they have valuable skills to bring to the table and that they're supporting you.
And that's kind of where I would like to see us go in the next six months. And that, that does not feel like, Hey, you have failed and I need you to fix your failure. It's like, no, again, only say if it's true. I'm not going to tell someone they're doing a great job on something that I did not think they were doing a great job on.
But oftentimes I can look at a person in their day and find examples of the things I would like to see them do more of and call those things out. So that's, that's a big one for me.
Stephanie Goss: I think that goes for the team as well from, from the, to, you know, speaking to the manager who's managing the situation, I think both of your, your points, Andy, about validating the good things that this person is doing and the reasons behind it, and then getting them to focus not on the failures, but on the successes.
I think those are two, two, two tools. And that's why I, I agree with you when you said this is going to be a long process. Those are tools that if your team does not possess them, you are going to have to teach them those, those skills. You are going to have to teach them how to look, uh, positively at each other and assume the good intent and find the good in what, what each other is doing.
Um, and you, it is a very powerful tool to teach them how to look for the things that are going right. And Recognize that we all have opportunities where we can do things even better. And it's not personal. It's the job itself. And so, Hey, we're doing a great job with this. And what if we did this next time?
What if we tried this teaching them, not only that skillset to look at it in an even better yet framework, but also teaching them the language tool of making it a we, instead of a you and a me and that stopping of the finger pointing, that's part of teaching them how to solve their own problems. That's a, that's a long, that's a long play.
It's, it's definitely not, you know, a short one.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yep. I agree. I think the next tool in our toolbox is going to be leveraging the other doctors I mean again, I know if you're a true vet practice, this is a little bit more challenging than larger vets But so let's give an example. Let's just say that induction protocols, surgical induction protocols are a real sticking point.
This doctor says this is what we want to do and you guys are not doing it right and You know, blah, blah, blah. And the techs are feeling picked on and blah, blah, blah. And all those sorts of things. Uh, my question is, what are the other doctors doing? And, you know, can we bring the other doctors together and say, guys, uh, as a group of doctors, hello, group of doctors, we're having some questions from the technician about how we want to do this, because they're having different experiences with their different doctors.
Some of them are uncertain about what they're supposed to be doing. I wanted us to come together and try to reach a consensus about generally how we are going to do our, uh, anesthesia induction protocols and that way I can bring the doctors together and if I can get them to reach some sort of a consensus I can take that consensus back to the techs and say this is how the doctors together want to do this.
Now, some people say our practice is built on doctors being able to do whatever they want. I would say there can be some middle ground there. Meaning, I'm not telling you what drugs to use, but I am telling you, hey, this is how we're going to take patients in, this is how we're going to, they're going to be prepped.
There's a lot of things that we can agree on, even if we say doctors are going to pick their individual drugs. Um, there are, there are some things that we can still agree on, and I could still focus, uh, emphasize to the doctors, hey, getting some continuity so techs know what to expect is really important.
If you still can't do that, I would say at this point you're picking your poison. And so some people say, I don't want to try to get the doctors to make an agreement, it's too hard. Well, you either get to deal with the doctors trying to reach an agreement, or you get to deal with the headaches of the doctors doing things differently and wanting their own wishes honored.
Those are the two paths. Like, you get to deal with whichever path you want. Uh, you're, you take, but they, they both have downsides, um, but you are, you are at least picking your poison and you can feel like you have some agency in that, in that regard. It may be time after this to have a team culture ways of working conversation so everybody can hear each other.
And sort of build a collective vision of what, uh, the team working together looks like. And so that can be a larger staff meeting. One of my favorite ones is the way our friend, uh, Maria Prita does it, where she'll bring a team together and say, Alright guys, we're gonna make a list. What does a, uh, a high performing team, what do they look like?
What do they sound like? What do they feel like? Meaning, what does it feel like? feel like day to day to be a part of this team. How can we be more like this team? How can we communicate better? What's important to us? And that can provide a framework for people to talk about what they care about and what they're trying to accomplish.
And it's it's different than sitting people down and putting the staff on one side of the room and putting the doctor on the other side of the room and having them talk about their feelings to each other, which I think is generally a recipe for disaster. Um, So, yeah, but it's a way to get into that conversation that's not directly pointed at you guys are mad at her and she's mad at you.
Let's talk about it.
Stephanie Goss: Right. Yeah. I, I think part of it too, is this is a good opportunity to ask the team, um, For what they want to see in, because really this is about, it's about the work getting done, but as we've dug into this, a huge part of this is about, probably more about the feedback. that the rest of the team is either giving or receiving to each other than is about the work itself.
Because either they're getting feedback from the perfectionist that feels negative to them or feels like they're doing something wrong, or they're just, because clearly there was in the letter some conversation about the corrections, right? So the, the conversation for me really is about what the team is about.
What do we want this to feel like? All of us, like, we all like to hear, we've done a great job. When you get told that you have done a great job and it feels like really good, think, think to, you know, think back to a time using positive, affirmative inquiry, like asking them to think, think about a time when you got some feedback from somebody on the team that made you feel really good.
What did they say to you? And how did they say it? And pulling those pieces out to ask them, How do we, how do we give each other feedback in a way that still lets us walk away and feel positive about it? Even if something has been done wrong. Because the reality is, we're humans. And we are all going to make mistakes.
And I want us to have a place where we can acknowledge those mistakes. and safely still take care of our clients and our patients. If we make a mistake with a patient, like I want any member of the team to feel like it's okay to say, Hey guys, I made a mistake. I need help. Right? Like you want to know that as quickly as possible, particularly when a patient is involved, building that safety with the team is only going to happen with having those conversations.
And so I think the low stakes piece, I love Maria's approach. And another way to approach it is to ask them like, when you've had this go well, what did that look like? What did it feel like? And use that to build, okay, how are we going to do this collectively as a group moving forward?
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, I love it. Um, I think you're spot on on coaching on how to give feedback, uh, both, both to the both to the staff and to the doctor, but, um, that that coach on positive feedback over negative, um, it's, uh,
Stephanie Goss: hmm. Mm
Dr. Andy Roark: I understand. Mm hmm. The tendency, if you see mistakes, you want to fix mistakes, but I will tell you. As an associate vet especially, positive feedback is your friend, which means sometimes letting a little things go and instead catching someone who's doing it the way you want and praising them publicly, um, is the way to train people. Because again, the techs aren't trying to fight you, they want to make you happy.
And if you just tell them, Hey, when you did that, that was really great. I really liked how you did that. Or, um, something like that, but this it's easy to reinforce those tendencies. Um, especially if you do it with other techs around and say, Hey, I love, this is the way I want it done. I just, I really love the way you did this.
Then it's not you. It is you pointing out when someone's doing a really good job and the rest of them, they want to get patted on the back. And so just, just be on your game, pay attention, uh, catch people doing things that you like and positively reinforce them. I think Frank, um, one of the things about the perfectionist is, you know, It can feel really demoralizing to feel like you're supposed to change who you are, or that you're wrong.
And again, for someone who has a perfectionist personality, being wrong is really hard. It can be really helpful to frame success not as you're right and you got your way, or you're wrong and you didn't get your way. It can, you can reframe the game as we need to get the team to buy in to these changes.
Let's talk about how to do that. Because then the challenge is not knowing what is good or what is bad. It is, all right, great. I hear you. How are we going to get the team to come on board with this? And that can frame things up where they go, Oh, Yes, maybe we could do some training. Maybe we could pick one thing and work on it.
And now they're helping us get an action plan that's going to make them happy. But, um, but a lot of that, if you can just change it, a lot of people think, again, this is sort of, I think this is a, I hate to say a mark of immaturity, but I think it is. I think it's a mark of immaturity to believe that I know things you don't know.
Um, the, the mark of maturity is to say there's a lot of different ways to do things, and I need to be smart about looking at our team and figuring out how I'm going to get other people to buy into the way that I think we should do them and build consensus and get this built into our culture. culture.
And so I just, it's funny. I see a lot of people stamping their foot and sticking their lip out and saying, well, this is the, this is, this is the right way to do it. And I'm like, you don't understand the assignment. The assignment is not for you to know the quote unquote best way. The assignment is for you to be able to talk to other people in a way that get them to.
buy in and feel good about what you want to
Stephanie Goss: hmm. Mm
Dr. Andy Roark: along for the ride. But that's, that's a, that's a maturity
Stephanie Goss: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
Dr. Andy Roark: And so, yeah, the last thing is switching over to action steps, generate a priority list of the issues that the perfectionist person would like to see changed. And then, uh, this is try to get them into the mindset of not nitpicking everybody about everything, but.
picking one area that we're going to focus on and we're going to lean back a little bit on the other areas, but we're going to work on this area and try to give them something that's productive that everyone can agree on. Okay, we're going to work on this, but that means we're going to let some other stuff go for right now.
And again, I'm not talking about letting things go if they're negligent, if they're dangerous, things like that. But, but you get the ideas is. I don't know, if you've ever tried to fix everything at once, you have realized how terrible that is, and how it never works. And just, this is just getting the person who's clearly They're trying to help.
It's just about getting them focused in a way where that we can actually start to implement some things that are going to help make them happy and also let the team feel safe in that they're not constantly feeling like they're going to mess up and get in trouble. That's that.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah, I love it.
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, that's, uh, that's kind of the big thing.
Uh, the, the toxic positivity part, uh, we did not touch on at all. I think it's, it's, uh, Just
Stephanie Goss: That's a whole other episode.
Dr. Andy Roark: it is well It's it's really hard to do anything about this without examples and I would just say this What are my frustrations in vet medicine right now is? There are a lot of people who are really cynical About that medicine and i'm not saying that's what's being happened here But there are a lot of people who are cynical and I go in and i'm like, hey guys This is a great profession and I really love it here.
And I know that that client was You Really nasty to us, but I expect that person was having a really terrible day and that I believe that they were probably doing their best and I'm going to try just to let it go and people, there are people who would say that's toxic positivity. And to me, I go, I don't, I don't think it is.
It's just, it's how I, it's how I want to cope and how I want to go forward. And again, the devil is in the details. Like, what exactly are we talking about? There are some things that sometimes being optimistic is not a bad thing. Okay. And sometimes it is, and if you're doing something that makes people feel like their complaints or their concerns are invalid, or they're not being heard, I need to know what the specifics are in that so we can have a conversation about that.
I think going to someone and saying, you're being toxically positive, I think that's generally a really bad idea because it's vague, and I don't know what you're talking about. The best thing is just to break it down into, hey, when someone says this thing, and you say, you know what, that's just the job, let's go. can make that person feel like they're not being heard and like, um, and like they're never going to get supported or that they're, yeah, or they're being dismissed. And then you just coach them on, on delivery and feedback. And again, that's, that's generally how I approach those sorts of things. Um, I would probably try to separate that apart from the perfectionist stuff.
Um, oftentimes, honestly, if you fix the perfectionist stuff, a lot of the other behaviors will go away. And so anyway, I'm not saying I don't care about it, I'm saying it's lower on my priority list, and I really kind of need to know the specifics, and then it's just gonna be a basic, hey, um, the old SBI, this was the situation, this was the behavior that you exhibited, and this is the impact that it had on people.
And, and I was wondering if you could help me out with that or do that differently next
Stephanie Goss: Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: Alright, we are out of time.
Stephanie Goss: This was a, you know, this was a fun one.
Dr. Andy Roark: was, it's 100 percent worth being out of time for me to get to talk
Stephanie Goss: Wrestling. Pro wrestling. Who knew?
Dr. Andy Roark: thing that's in my brain. I know.
Stephanie Goss: Who knew? All right. Uh, take care everybody. Have a great week.
Dr. Andy Roark: Thanks, everybody!
Stephanie Goss: Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message.You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can. Email us at podcast at uncharted vet. com. Take care everybody and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
