This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss are in the mailbag to tackle an email from a member of a hospital leadership team who is worried they have a narcissist on the team and it doesn't seem like the practice owner is willing to deal with the behavior from this person or get rid of them. The team is dropping like flies as a result of naughty behavior from this team member and this leader is wondering what they can do to help in this situation. Let's get into this…
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody, I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, we've got an email from someone who is struggling with a narcissistic team member and a practice owner who doesn't seem to want to deal with the problems that are being created as a result. This one was a tricky one but, also, really enjoyed the conversation that Andy and I got into and I hope you do as well. Let's get into this.
Announcer:
And now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only, Stephanie, I bet you think this song is about you, Goss.
Stephanie Goss:
I think this is going to be one of those episodes where people maybe say, “Is this about my clinic?”
Andy Roark:
Oh, is this one about me?
Stephanie Goss:
Is this about my clinic? Is this about me?
Andy Roark:
Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Maybe not is this about me but is this about that person in my clinic.
Andy Roark:
Oh, yeah, totally. Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Hi, Andy Roark. How's it going?
Andy Roark:
Oh, man, it's great. We're recording this right before the Christmas holiday. Everything is decked, you'll probably hear crashes and footsteps as my kids are home from school. I'm wearing my holiday sweater that says I like them real thick and sprucy and it's got evergreen trees on it.
Stephanie Goss:
I can't. Oh, yeah, he's serious, y'all.
Andy Roark:
Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And when he stood up in front of the camera this morning, I just about died laughing. It is absolutely fantastic and I think that our whole team should get them as Christmas sweaters next year.
Andy Roark:
Oh, man.
Stephanie Goss:
This year, you got us Uncharted swag, next year, next year, we get-
Andy Roark:
Oh, ugly Christmas sweaters for the Uncharted team.
Stephanie Goss:
… Sir Mix-a-Lot ugly Christmas sweaters.
Andy Roark:
Oh, man, yeah. Oh, boy. But it's funny, you were like, “Do you really have a life-size Santa cut out of yourself next to your Christmas tree?” I was like, “Yes, I do.” I had to hide it from my wife but I have it.
Stephanie Goss:
That was the absolute best gift that I've ever had the pleasure of watching you experience thanks to our friends Erika Cartwright and Jen Galvin last year. And it is true, Andy received life-size cardboard cutouts of himself and he squirreled them away in the basement, so good.
Andy Roark:
Well, it's one Santa and a bunch of Andy elves. We call him Santy. Santy, the elves did not last all that … Well, they were not as well constructed and they have broken down but Santi is … In the Christmas Carol, which is my favorite Christmas movie, when he's got the lamp and his wife keeps trying to break it?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Suddenly trying to break it? I was like, “Allison's going to take up smoking just so she has a reason to have a lighter around the Christmas tree-
Stephanie Goss:
And set Santi on fire?
Andy Roark:
And set Santi on fire, yeah. I don't know, the doors were opening, he blew out into the rainstorm. Sure he did, Allison.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man. Well, I'm excited about our episode today because I do think this is one of those episodes. I remember, when I read this letter we got in the mailbag, I thought, “Man, I have been in a practice where I have felt this as a team member and struggled,” and so I think that it'll feel familiar. We don't have a whole lot of details about the scenario here and so Andy and I are probably … I think you and I are probably going to make up some of it so that we can get deeper into the conversation in terms of an example.
But we have someone who is a part of a leadership team in a hospital and so, for the purposes of this conversation, we're going to assume that they're part of the leadership team but not this person's direct supervisor so they don't have positional power in this scenario and they are struggling because there is member of the team whose behavior feels very narcissistic. We don't know if they actually truly are narcissistic personality but they feel and that was how the letter came across is that we have a narcissistic member of the team and the practice owner won't fire them.
Their behavior has caused multiple valued members of the team to quit over time and they don't ever take responsibility for themselves, for their actions for upsets that happen on the team and yet the practice owner is unwilling, it seems, to do anything about the scenario and so they're just like, “What do I do?” both, I think, on a personal level but also when you're a member of leadership in a practice like that and you don't condone the behavior, you want to make change.
And really, so I think for me, that's at the crux of this episode is, when you're in that position as a leader where you want there to be change but also you see in the team that there needs to be change and you are not in a position to enforce that change or make that change happening, what do you do?
Andy Roark:
Yeah, yeah. We can talk as if this person is a leader in the practice. For me, it doesn't matter all that much. If you don't have positional power over this person, then you don't have positional power over this person and we have to navigate using very limited organizational tools or no organizational tools. I think that's how I'd like to set it up today is to just go ahead and go at it like that and talk about it. We get a lot of this. So, we're going to talk about a narcissist today and most of what we're going to talk about, I suspect, really carries over to any challenging personality.
Stephanie Goss:
Personality.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, exactly.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
Andy Roark:
But we'll hit some stuff specifically for narcissism but, for the most part, you're going to find a lot of commonalities to the toxic employee, the micromanager in some ways, things like that.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
All right, let's get into this with some headspace. Ready?
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. Yeah, sounds good.
Andy Roark:
All right, cool. One of my favorite sayings that I have been using for the last year is there's three things you can't control, the past, the future and other people. There are lots of other things but three things we should remember, the past, the future and other people. And so, people are like, “What do I do? How can I make this person change since they're not leaving? How can I make the practice owner get rid of this person? How can I make the rest of the team understand what's happening?” And the answer is you cannot, you cannot control the people. And then they go, “And what will the future be? What will it be like in a year? Is this still going to be happening next year? What does my career look like if I stay here? What opportunities am I missing if I leave?
Stephanie Goss:
And then, all of a sudden, you're living in a cardboard box in the woods.
Andy Roark:
Exactly right. You can't control the future.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
This person, they might put in their notice and leave tomorrow, they might stay here forever, I don't know. It might get better, it might get worse, it'll probably get better and then get worse and then get better and cycle along like that. I don't know and so I think it's very important to start to frame this up from the beginning in the headspace standpoint is you can't control the past, you can't control the future, you can't control other people, including this person, including your boss who has the potential to get rid of this person or the power to, you just can't.
And so, right off the bat, we have to let some things go. We have to stop talking to ourselves about what should be and what people should do and how people should act because it doesn't matter because you can't control it. And so, that's going to be a bitter pill to swallow right up front but everything gets easier if you can just catch yourself and say should is not real, it doesn't matter what should be. I'm not going to use the word should but a lot of us sit and talk about what management should do, what the person should do and so on and it's not productive.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, no, I agree with that, for sure. And it's funny because, when I sat down and thought about this, I was like, “Well, there's so much you can't control in this kind of scenario,” and so, really, for me, when I was thinking about headspace, I was like, “Really, it's about getting Zen and finding that place of I'm going to deal with what I can control,” because I think that's really the only way you can approach it. Because from a headspace perspective, if you think about what should they do or you think about I wish someone else would do this, you're going to drive yourself loopy. It's not worth the toll that that kind of mental anguish that you put on yourself gives you.
And so, the best headspace advice is just looking at it from the perspective and saying what can I control here and then just sitting, I'm going to date myself here, pop in a DVD, watch some Elsa and Anna and just channel Elsa's badass behavior and just let that shit go because you can't force other people to do what you want them to do.
Andy Roark:
That's right. You can watch your own VHS tapes but you can't-
Stephanie Goss:
I almost said pop in a tape.
Andy Roark:
You just pop in a tape, hit rewind, then hit play. Oh, man.
Stephanie Goss:
Listen, Linda. You want to talk about dating yourselves? Wait until you open your Christmas present.
Andy Roark:
Oh, boy. Oh, wow, man. I watched Die Hard with my kids two nights ago because they've never seen it before and there's the whole thing about Die Hard is a Christmas movie and they're like, “What is this?” I was like, “All right, you guys should probably see this movie.” And the terrorists, right at the very beginning, they cut the phone lines and my kids were like, “What the heck is that?” I was like, “Oh, that was a 1980s problem.” Yeah, all right so, okay.
Stephanie Goss:
Anyways.
Andy Roark:
Anyway. This is not your circus and these are not your monkeys and we say not my circus, not my monkeys. And it's funny, sometimes I start to give advice like this and it might sound cynical or jaded and I definitely see people say, “Well, not my circus, not my monkeys.” I don't mean it to be cynical and jaded, I mean it in a take care of yourself way.
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Andy Roark:
This is not your circus and they are not your monkeys and the reason I say that is because there are two mindsets that I see people go into when they have problems like this and both of them are really damaging to that individual. And so, the first one is the martyr mindset which is I will absorb the abuse to protect others.
Stephanie Goss:
The team, yeah.
Andy Roark:
I will protect the team.
Stephanie Goss:
Especially if you're a leader, absolutely. I will take that behavior so that the rest of the team doesn't have to experience the wrath.
Andy Roark:
Exactly. I will be the one who wades in and challenges this person and continuously battles with them and every day I will wage a war made up of five different battles from the treatment room to the front desk back to the break room and there's these just little altercations but I am standing up-
Stephanie Goss:
For the team.
Andy Roark:
… because I don't want the team to suffer and so I will suffer for them. And the other one is very closely related, it's the defender mentality which is very, very similar but it is I am not going to suffer, I am going to battle and cause this person pain and I will square off with them. And it's basically I will fight the bully so that other people don't.
Stephanie Goss:
Don't have to fight.
Andy Roark:
Exactly right. And the first mindset is I'll take the beating from the bully so that other people don't have to and the second one is I will brawl with the bully so that others are safe. And those behaviors, they end up looking quite different but, ultimately, they lead to the same thing. And again, both of these mindsets come from an idea of service to others, being a protector which you can tell is a common mindset in our profession. We have a lot of people who are heroes, who are protectors, who look out for the weak and the small and so you can see there's a lot of people who have mentalities like this and I get it and I do get it. I truly believe it comes from a place of trying to do good and to be a good person.
But ultimately what happens is it just leads to continuous conflict and the whole treatment zone or the whole treatment room becomes a war zone. And so, you're like, “Well, I'm fighting them so others don't have to.” It's like, “Man, others are just living in a war zone and it's not worth it, it's not worth it.” There's the saying you can be right or you can be together when it comes to conflict sometimes and you can totally stand up and be the champion or you can do the thing that is going to deescalate the situation and make the days easier to get through.
But a lot of people really struggle with the idea that you have someone who's a narcissist and they're not being challenged on their narcissism, they're allowed to continue these behaviors and that does not feel right or just to them. And ultimately, they really struggle to decide that it's not my circus and it's not my monkeys and I'm just going to step back and I'm going to get my job done, it's just a job and I'm going to try not to engage with this and that's it. But I don't know, I think a lot of people struggle with that but I think that's an important piece of headspace.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think I struggled when we were getting ready to have this conversation for a myriad of reasons, least of which was what you just described, the two types of behavior when it comes to not your circus. Hi, I have been that manager on both sides where I was like, “Oh, I'm going to fight the battle for everybody else so that they don't have to do it,” and I have also been the one who's like, “Oh, I'm just going to take it from this person so that nobody else has to deal with it.” And you're spot on, at least from my experience and my perspective, when I was in that role, it was not a conscious decision, it was a I care about the team, I don't want them … I see how much this is bothering me.
And a lot of times, especially if you're in a position of leadership, whether you're a manager or assistant manager, whatever, you often are privy to how other people are feeling. Either they're coming and sitting and talking to you or you're hearing second-hand this person is really struggling and so, as an empathetic individual, you want to protect the team and you want to make it better. Part of what attracts you to a leadership or a management role is caring about other people and so it's really easy to fall into those two things. And it's funny because, when I sat down and thought about this from an episode perspective, I was like, “Well, other than channeling Elsa and just figuring out how to let it go, I'm not sure that there's a whole lot from a headspace perspective for me because it really is all…”
I think, normally, when we talk about headspace, it's what are things that you can do and what are things that you can control and a lot of this headspace is about letting go of all the things you can't control. So, I don't know that I have a whole lot more from a headspace perspective. How do you feel? Is there anything else that you've got from a headspace perspective?
Andy Roark:
No, that's a good place to wrap up headspace because my first action step is really tied into how we respond. And so, this is a good place to take a break and then we'll come back in and we'll get into our action steps.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay, sounds great. Hey, everyone. I have to jump in here real quick and remind you all of something that I'm hoping you already know about but, if you didn't, I wanted to put it on your radar. And that is that we have registration open for our Uncharted April Conference. Now, this is going to be our last one in Greenville for a while, we're super excited, we're going to hit the road as a team and try some different locations but we're going to do it up pretty big and it's going to be a whole lot of fun and I would love to see you there but I want to make sure that early bird pricing is closing.
That's right, it's closing January 17th, you don't want to miss it. If you would like to be there live and in person with us in Greenville, head over to unchartedvet.com and register today because we would love to see you and who doesn't want to get their ticket at a cheaper price. And now, back to the podcast.
Andy Roark:
All right. So, for me, the very first action step here which just absolutely dovetails off of what we just talked about before the break is don't respond. It's the old Viktor Frankl, between every action and the reaction, there's a pause. And in that moment, my advice is, especially since you don't have power over this person, is to try to pause and take a breath and try not to respond to behaviors that we're seeing. And a lot of times, narcissistic people can get really upset if they feel criticized, they want attention to be about them, they want conversations to be about them, they want accolades to be about them, they get unhappy if accolades are about other people or other people are getting celebrated.
It's just things like that and, in that moment, between when you see the behavior and it makes you angry, you have the chance to pause. And the reason I think that that is so important is direct conflict and confrontation with narcissists is usually almost entirely unproductive. You are not going to talk them out of their behavior or their worldview, it's who they are in a lot of ways and so direct conflict and confrontation with a narcissist usually does not go well. The other truth of office politics is this. I grew up watching sports and one of the things that always bothered me so much in sports is I'd be rooting for a team, whether it's basketball or football or whatever, and there would be somebody who would do something like shove another player to the ground and then they would get in trouble.
And on the replay on TV, it would clearly show the first person punching the other guy in the crotch and then getting shoved to the ground and the guy who got punched in the crotch is the guy who gets in trouble for shoving him to the ground. And it's just that's life in so many ways. And it's just the second person often gets in trouble which is that person will do their behavior and you'll react to it strongly and everyone turns and looks at you because you were the second loud voice or you were the one who really responded aggressively or assertively, whereas, the other person was just trying to make snide comments or things like that.
And the second person often gets caught in the altercation which means, if you respond and you respond immediately and especially aggressively, oftentimes, you are going to bear the brunt of the frustration of the team or especially of management, you are going to be the one who gets called and so I think that that's a big part of it. The other part is, a lot of times, with the team, management is interested in maintaining harmony and you're going to get labeled as a brawler, you're going to get labeled as somebody who … It takes two people to have an argument and you get-
Stephanie Goss:
Antagonistic.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, exactly right. And you may be just responding to behaviors but you are one of the two people who has arguments and that puts you on the naughty list. And so, anyway, that's part of my thing up front is I know it's hard, it sucks, pause, try to not react, try to … It doesn't mean you're not going to react but don't react in the moment, especially don't react emotionally, there's a very good chance that you are going to get caught and you are not going to change this person's behavior with direct conflict or confrontation.
Stephanie Goss:
So, two things. One, I was laughing there because, as you were talking about the antagonistic behavior and the response behavior, young manager Stephanie, believe it or not, was a bit of a hothead.
Andy Roark:
No.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, that was totally me. It was like, “You're going to shove me? I'm going to shove you right back.” And so, I was laughing because I can totally see myself in that behavior at that point in time. And it's not necessarily intentional, it's just, when you're provoked, that's what we want to do, I think it's human nature.
Andy Roark:
Sure.
Stephanie Goss:
But also, I'm glad that you talked about giving the pause and it's interesting because there actually is a method for dealing with narcissists and narcissistic behavior and it comes out of … It's actual psychological method and comes out of therapy and it's called the Grey Rock Method. And so, it's funny because when I was thinking about this from action steps, I was like, “Oh, I had Grey Rock down,” and then I was like, “Oh, now Andy did his part, it's the exact same thing.” It's that idea that, to your point, what people who truly are narcissistic want is full attention, they want to be center stage, they want all eyes on them. And so, just like on the basketball court, when they punch someone, that's because they want the attention, right?
Andy Roark:
Right.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, when you respond and react, you're giving them exactly what they want and so the Grey Rock Method is the idea that, if you are just dull and boring and you don't respond and let yourself intentionally try and become emotionally detached, it weakens their ability to get pleasure out of poking at you. And so, the idea is you just become a boring gray rock and that's very different from completely disengaging. And I think that that's really important here because, when you completely disengage from someone that causes the … It's like on the basketball court, if you poke at someone and they have no response, they don't just walk away, they poke at them again in the way that's going to let me hit you on the nuts kind of response.
So, I think it's important to think about how do we deal with this person and I think that there really are steps that we can do to disengage in a way that is still I'm doing my job and I am not ignoring you because that, in a way, is giving them the negative attention that they want but just keeping it short and brief and how can I minimize the interactions with this person. So, if you're someone who is looking at this, there's actually a lot of great articles and info on the Grey Rock Method because it actually is a thing.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, I got to be honest, when you said young Stephanie Goss used the Grey Rock Method to deal with narcissists, this was not what I was thinking was going to happen. I use the baseball bat management style. It's like a baseball bat that just lays there, it doesn't respond. Not what I was thinking, okay. All right, so we are in agreement that not responding is a good opening position.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, give the pause.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, cool.
Stephanie Goss:
Give the pause, okay.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. Remember that narcissists tend to make promises and talk about a future that's often based in fantasy. It's big promises, it's big talk about what will be and how things will be, don't buy into that. And again, it's not about being aggressive but we're going to talk to this person in facts and deadlines and we're going to ask when will these things be done by and when can you have this or can you do this specific thing, when do you think you'll have a chance to do that or will you have a chance to do that this morning. And it's just about trying to communicate clearly because, otherwise, you're going to get big talk about how things will change and what will be done and then it won't be done and they will continue to rewrite the history so that they don't look bad.
And so, anyway, it's not about intentionally trying to trap people but it's about talking in specifics so that it is very clear who did what they were supposed to do and who did not do what they were supposed to do.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, I think that goes hand in hand with the idea of … I love your response about being very clear, particularly from both a boundary perspective on your end but also with them. To your point, when you are engaging, if you're not the person who is in control, if you're not the person who is their direct supervisor and you can't necessarily deal with things, you can still help by teaching the rest of the team to give really clear instructions and really clear guidance and having that kind of conversation with the team which is like, “Look, let's be really clear about this. This behavior is really affecting the rest of the team and so what can we control, what boundaries can we set to make this go more smoothly?”
Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree with that. Speaking of boundaries, I think one of the action steps has got to be shoring up your personal boundaries. We talked already a little bit about this is not my circus, it's not my monkey, we need to have a good perspective and be able to leave work at work which is, again, I said this is going to be a lot about just having toxic people in general, doing your best. And I was going to say don't but it's really hard not to sometimes but do your absolute best to not let this person live rent-free in your head.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
Try to set yourself up so that you go in and you do your job and you focus on the clients and you focus on the patients and you focus on the things that you enjoy and then you put those things to bed. Maybe figure out what you're leaving the clinic ritual is that lets you put your job down, put your job down and go home and do something else but do not go home and ruminate on this if you can avoid it.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think that that's so important because one of the things to remember in particular about someone who is truly narcissistic is that they are taking enjoyment and pleasure out of you ruminating on it and causing the distress and the upset. The attention, that response, that reaction is 100% what they want and so, if you have the ability to, like you said, figure out how to I'm going to leave this here and I'm going to walk away. Even if you can't, everybody gets pushed past, even hothead Stephanie gets pushed past her limits, at some point you are like, “I'm going to go take five and I'm going to walk away and I'm going to go have a breather.” I think your point about a ritual for yourself so that you can say, “Hey, I am going to walk away here and I'm going to truly try and leave this at work,” and then you get home and you're like, “Ugh, I'm still thinking about it.”
Whatever that thing is, if you need to deal with it, deal with it away from them versus in the moment where they get the satisfaction of seeing that they're getting to you. And I know that that's easier said than done because, when a bully is picking on you, you want to, it's really easy especially if you're a hothead, to always want to go into attack mode. But I love that, keeping the boundaries and letting work be at work because they're only going to get more satisfaction if they see that it is impacting you or anybody else on the team.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think that one of the action steps we take is refusing to suffer in silence. And you say, “But, Andy, you just said not to respond or not to react,” that is true. Also, you should not martyr yourself meaning you shouldn't be a punching bag, you shouldn't take it. Remember the people who are narcissists, they like to look good. They want to look good, they want to be the heroes which means, if you tell them, “Hey, this is not a popular position when you take it, that, when you did this, this is the impact that it had on the rest of the team,” they don't like that and you can negatively reinforce behaviors. You're not going to get this person to change their driving behavior but they want attention, they want to feel important, things like that.
And so, you can give some feedback and you can push back and you can say this is the ramifications of the behavior that you had but, when you did this, this was the outcome that it had and I would really appreciate it if you didn't do that again. And I would do it privately and not in a way that's going to get them more attention or things like that. I would be brief and I would be done, I would not give them a gossip story to go and spin to other people but I would just say, “Hey, this was not acceptable when you did it.” Remember that one of my favorite analogies, I keep pointing this out, is the relationship we have with work is just that, it's a relationship. And we have some control over how people treat us and it's not wrong to say, “Look, I'm not going to be treated this way,” and just to mean it and it doesn't have to be dramatic.
You can be a safe conversation as best as possible where we make sure that we're not triggered emotionally because we don't want this to become a big deal. It's where we try to assume good intent on the other person's part, we think about how they've been set up to fail and we think about the end result that we want to bring about. And so, it's a relationship, how are you going to be treated? And so, I think it's a healthy thing to say it's not acceptable, I am not going to be treated like this. And if you're in a workplace and you are in a relationship with your workplace where you say this is abusive, this is terrible, I feel unappreciated, I feel beaten down, then it would be the same, for me, as if you're being in relationship with a person who's unappreciative and who mistreats you and who makes you feel awful.
And I really like that analogy because I think it works quite well and so I'm not going to spend time with someone who doesn't respect me. I'm not going to be in that relationship, I'm just not. And your practice is the same way. If you say, “Boy, the feelings I'm having,” if they were coming directly from a person, “I would not have a relationship with this person. I would not engage with them, I would not be around.” Then I would say you need to make that true for yourself in this regard as well. And so, anyway, it's a healthy relationship. It's not perfection, it's not the other person reading our minds and knowing what we want, it involves us being clear about what we want, talking about our needs and our desires and sharing when things are not acceptable or when we're starting to struggle, it's having open dialogue about that and getting that from the other side as well.
And so, anyway, I put that, one, to the person meaning I'm not going to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't respect me or who treats me with disdain but then also to the practice. And at this point, we're starting to shift our conversation a little bit to the practice owner or to the management team and I am in a relationship at work which means, if I am unhappy in my relationship at work, I'm not going to not say anything and then walk away from the relationship, that's not how grownups have relationships. I'm going to communicate where I'm at and I'm going to say, “Hey, look, I got to be honest with you, the last couple of weeks have not been particularly good and I have some concerns about how things are going, I'd like to share them and see what your thoughts are.”
And that's how I talk to my wife of like, “Hey, when we went out…” We went to holiday parties and, based on previous years, we have come up with a set of ground rules where we have a signal that either of us can give which is like, “It's time to leave. The kids are done…” You know what I mean? The kids are done, this is it. But we came up with that signal based on a healthy conversation about, “Hey, I felt stranded at this party or whatever,” and it was something that worked out, the same thing. Just run your career like you're having a relationship and communicate where you're at and that means telling management what's up and then giving them some time and some grace to act.
And some people go, “Oh, well, they're not doing anything about this behavior,” and it's one of the things we always hear and you never really know what's going on behind the scenes. It might be that management is not doing anything, it might be that management is actively doing everything they can and you just don't know about it and they're not able to tell you. It's amazing to me … I think, generally, again, I'm speaking in broad generalities, I can't prove that this is true, it's rare that, when you take a problem like this to management, they are not aware of the problem in any way, shape or form.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, yes.
Andy Roark:
Assuming good intent, I think most management teams are moving through a process of trying to either correct the behavior or they're moving through the steps of saying this person's behavior is unacceptable and they need to go away. Where they are in that process may not be where you are, you might … You going in there, if you go in and say, “I'm going to say this and then they're going to get rid of this person,” I think you're going to be disappointed, I think what's most likely is that you will maybe speed up that process that they're going through. That's my impression in most of the management interactions like this. But anyway, all that just to say they're not allowed to tell you where their head's at.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. And I want to throw out a third thing that I wish was not as common in veterinary medicine as it is which is that we have a lot of conflict averse people in veterinary medicine. And so, from the mailbag letter here, I could hallucinate that they might be working for a practice owner who is very conflict averse, who doesn't … Because they were like, “It doesn't seem like they seem protected by this owner.” Well, a lot of times, it's not necessarily that that practice owner even likes the behavior, they might be just as hacked off about it as you and they could just be really, really conflict averse and be struggling with what do I even do and how do I deal with this. And it seems so simple to say, well, you just fire them and then everything will be fine but, to your point, nothing is ever that simple, I wish that it was, right?
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
As a manager myself and as someone who has been in charge of running the practice and having the weight of everybody's paychecks on my shoulder, it's not as simple as that. And so, I think part of it, to your point about it is a relationship, is going into the conversation having empathy and seeking first to understand and getting curious with your practice owner so that, when you have the conversation, just say, “Hey, I would like to understand because these are the behaviors that I'm seeing and these are the consequences that I'm seeing with the rest of the team. And I know that you care about us and I know that you want this to be a great hospital, I'm worried that it appears like you're not doing anything to protect the team and I don't think that that's actually true. So, help me understand where things stand.”
And I think that that's important for a couple of reasons. One, I think it opens the door to honesty and furthering your relationship with the practice owner which, if you really want to stay in this practice, is a good thing. Two, I think it gives them the space to say something like, “Oh, well, just so you know, I am working on things. Can't talk about it but just know that I am working on things.” And as an employee who's been on the receiving end of that conversation, that is a huge weight off of your shoulders because it lets you know that they're … Because in your head, like it or not, you're probably making up stories about what you think they're not doing.
And so, when you hear that, I've been the one to tell my team that and I've also been the one to hear that, and when you hear that, it's like, “Oh, okay, so I'm not just out on planet cuckoo and thinking that they're not doing anything about this.” You still may not like how slow it is, you still may not like what's happening or the way that it's happening but at least you know and so I think opening the door to that conversation is super, super healthy. It also opens the door for them to say maybe I don't know what to do about the situation or I don't like conflict and it opens the door to possibilities and so I would approach it from that method.
And the second reason that I would approach it from that method is because it is a relationship, and you and I talk about this a lot and I don't know if you're getting to this, but, for me, when I read this mailbag, I was like, “Oh, we're going to have the conversation about picking your poison,” because, really, if you don't control, if you're not their direct supervisor and you don't control what happens with this person, you can only do so much and, at some point, you have to decide when enough is enough and when you're going to stay and put up with the behavior, like you said, or when you're going to say I don't think it's acceptable to be treated this way, I don't want my coworkers to be treated this way and I'm going to make a change.
And so, I think that, for me, opening that door to the conversation, let me, as a team member … I remember very clearly as a young technician working with another technician who was older and was a bit toxic, I wouldn't say that they were narcissistic but they were a bit toxic, I was like, “I really love everybody else on this team and I love this practice and I feel like I would be just a quitter if I walked away and my parents didn't raise me to be a quitter.” But I was like, “I feel like I have to say something,” and saying something really made me feel like, “Oh, okay, I got the clarity I needed to know that this was a situation where the practice owner actually was not going to do something about it,” and so I didn't feel bad saying, “Okay,” and then finding another position for myself.
Because I knew that I couldn't change it but it wouldn't have necessarily felt good about making that, on a personal level, felt good about making that decision without having all that information. And so, I think going to the practice owner and having that conversation and opening that door would help me sleep better at night.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree. I think the real Jedi level here, if you want to really be amazing, I think that you go back in time and you tell the practice owner, “Hey, are you aware of the Uncharted Leadership Essential Certificate that's available? It's available on VetFolio and free to Uncharted members because they have workshops in there on getting team buy-in on coaching and feedback and development and effective delegation and holding people accountable and it's this nice little eight hours of RACE CE bundle and … Anyway.” But if you had mentioned that in the past and then gotten them to take it, then they would have the tools to have these types of developmental and feedback conversations that then, when you went in and said this is not working for me, they'd be like, “I know what to do, I have the skills for this,” and then they would go and they would handle it and, voila, and everyone would celebrate you.
And I'm not saying pizza party but, if they don't throw confetti, I would be surprised at the end of this scenario.
Stephanie Goss:
I can't with you.
Andy Roark:
That's right, okay. Where you ultimately ended up, that's where I end this. You have to communicate where you are with the team, in my opinion, if you want to be here. You don't owe these people anything. You are a grown-up, you have this job, you show up, you focus, you do the job, that's all that you have agreed to. You didn't marry these people, you didn't sign a long-term contract and you don't owe them anything. I think, from a personal respect standpoint, I think telling people where I'm at, I think that just goes back to that whole relationship way of looking at our jobs which I think is healthy. And then, beyond that, never forget that you always have power. You always have the power of your presence, you always have that power and you can leave.
And at some point you have to say I am going to be unhappy in one of two ways. I am either going to be unhappy because I'm going to continue to be here or I'm going to be unhappy because I'm going to leave and one of those unhappiness is just short term and one of them is longer term. And a lot of it is trying to figure out what that … To do the math on how much pain is this. I don't want to leave and things turn around and get better, I don't want to leave the day before the toxic person, the narcissist person leaves and everybody else is like, “Whew, now things are turning around.” But at the same time, if the writing's on the wall and everybody has been up front with you about where they are and what the future's going to be like, at some point, stop putting your discomfort on them.
You've been given all the facts and so now it's up to you to decide what you're going to do with those facts and that often should be, it should be bailing out, it should be leaving and so you pick your poison. Some people really struggle with guilt, they're like, “But if I leave, the rest of the team will still have this problem.” And I get it and that is a valiant way to feel but it very much falls into the martyrdom category for me. And so, what I would say to you if you said that is, and this is tough love, let's go to camp tough love.
Stephanie Goss:
Camp tough love.
Andy Roark:
Oh, boy, roll the theme song.
Dustin Bays:
All aboard. (singing) Well it's Camp Tough Love, like drinking dish suds. See the creation of determination. Get ready for a safe talk, you might need a stress walk. That's what we do at Camp Tough Love.
Andy Roark:
This is camp tough love here. You didn't make this problem, you didn't make this problem. You didn't want this problem and you don't benefit from this problem and so this is not your responsibility. You didn't make it, you didn't want it and you don't benefit from it and so it is not your responsibility. And these people who work in your vet clinic, they're grown ass adults, they are, they don't need you to defend them. They're grown-ups.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. At the end of the day, they are also grown-ups and so-
Andy Roark:
They are grown-ups.
Stephanie Goss:
… just like you get to make a choice, they can make their own choice as well.
Andy Roark:
Exactly. And again, that's camp tough love and we're just going to swing through it real fast. But some people need to hear that because they're there and they're martyring themselves and they're not in a healthy place. And so, no, you've got to put that stuff down, you have to pick your poison and decide what you're going to do and then you need to do what's going to be right for you and for your family. That's what you need to do.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And the other piece, the last piece about having the conversation with the practice owner besides getting the facts that I think is really important is this person used the language in their email about feeling like the narcissist in their practice is being protected by the owner. And I think that it's really important to point out that your practice owner has a responsibility to your whole team and so it is their job to provide a safe work environment for you including a mentally and psychologically safe environment. And so, at the end of the day, you should absolve yourself of any guilt that you might feel if you were doing everything that you can and they are not providing that for you because there are so many vet practices out there that have healthy cultures and that have great teams who want people to come and join them.
So often, you and I get asked questions and I see so many people, especially on social media, who are grappling with the idea of leaving what sounds like a toxic cesspool or an abusive relationship and I just want to squeeze all of them and hug them and say, “You know what, there's so many practices out there and, yes, it might mean that you have to move or you might have a further commute and there are consequences and repercussions to every choice we make and that is true,” but I think where you and I both end is you're still picking your poison because you do still have a choice. And at the end of the day, you're choosing to stay or you're choosing to do something about it. And if you can't control the situation, if you didn't make it, you don't want it, you don't benefit from it, your choice could be to walk away.
Andy Roark:
That's what I got. That's what I would say to this person who's like, “What do I do?” Those are all my pieces of advice, yeah. You got anything else?
Stephanie Goss:
No, I don't think so.
Andy Roark:
Cool.
Stephanie Goss:
This was good, I hope it helped. I hope it helped. To our writer, if you were listening to this episode and you were like, “Ooh, hi, they're talking about my practice,” I hope that it gave you a little bit of help as well. Have a great rest of the week, everyone, and we'll hear you again here soon.
Andy Roark:
Take care, everybody.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast and, as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question and I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website, the address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care, everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
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