This week on the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Stephanie Goss and her special guest co-host, Maria Pirita, CVPM dive into a discussion about how to navigate the tricky waters when you go from being friends and a part of the team to being their boss. In this case, the new practice manager is facing an even more uphill battle because they aren't quite sure that the practice owner has their back. The team sides with decisions the old practice manager would have made and if the practice owner doesn't wade in, this manager is left feeling like they have no friends AND no one respects them. Good thing Stephanie and Maria aren't afraid of swimming through the uncharted waters. Let's get into this.
LINKS:
UVP: I'm the Boss, Can We Still Be Friends?
UVP: If You and I Hang Out, Does Everyone Need To Be Invited?
You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.
Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.
Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
Upcoming Events
HEY, PRACTICE MANAGER, THIS DAY IS FOR YOU
There’s no one else like you in the veterinary practice. Managing the business. Moderating conflict within the team. Fixing broken printers, again. You wear more hats than anyone else in the practice. All of these look great on you, of course. That doesn’t mean the challenges of leadership don’t phase you. Managing people effectively in a field that is tied tightly to emotions and high-speed decision-making is a constant learning experience. You need tools and strategies to take the reins and guide your team through it all…and support for you too.
It’s time to connect with your fellow practice managers to share what gets you excited about your role, find solutions for what needs your focus now, and discover new ways to shine even brighter as a manager. Come join us for this one day, virtual summit! A community awaits you.
Upcoming events: unchartedvet.com/upcoming-events/
Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of The Uncharted Podcast. This week I'm joined on the podcast by my colleague Maria Pirita, CVPM. Maria is a force of nature. She is so much fun. And this episode is going to be no exception because we are going on a wild ride. So buckle up friends, we are going to be talking about the challenges of going from being friends with the team to being their boss. And this is something that both Maria and I know something about as managers in our management journey, we have experienced it ourselves. We both have some thought. And I wanted to share this special episode with all of you because we are going to be having an awesome workshop that is going to be happening at our virtual Practice Manager Summit on this very same topic. So let's give you a little teaser of it now, and there's more to tell us about that to come later in the episode. Let's get into this
Announcer:
And now The Uncharted Podcast.
Stephanie Goss:
And we are back. It's me, Stephanie Goss, and today I have a wonderful and amazing co-host in my colleague and co-worker and partner in crime in all things Golden Retriever-ness, the amazing, the wonderful, Maria Pirita, CVPM. Welcome to the podcast Maria.
Maria Pirita:
Thanks Stephanie. It's always so much fun to talk to you. So I'm excited to be here.
Stephanie Goss:
I am glad you're here. I think that this is a great episode for you and I. And when I read this mailbag question, I was like, “Who needs Andy Roark to do this episode? I'm going to do this episode with Maria Pirita.”
Maria Pirita:
That's right. I hope you're listening, Andy Roark.
Stephanie Goss:
He might be regretting his life choices when he listens.
Maria Pirita:
He's like, “Mm, I don't know about this.”
Stephanie Goss:
I may be getting fired again. For those of you listeners who don't know, the running joke in Uncharted is that it's not an Uncharted event if Stephanie Goss does not cry because I cry very easily. And I am a, you know how some people are a sympathetic barfer, I am that, but I am also a sympathetic crier. And so if other people cry, then I cry. But also, Andy fires me on the regular is the running jokes. Anytime something goes wrong or anytime something gets screwed up, it doesn't matter whether I had anything to do with it. The answer is, “I guess we're going to have to fire Stephanie Goss.” So I have a feeling that this episode is going to be be one of those episodes where Andy regrets his life choices and regrets letting us loose.
Maria Pirita:
We'll see. We'll see. It's up to you audience, make sure you like this episode a lot and leave us tons of reviews. Just kidding.
Stephanie Goss:
No, I love it. So for those of you who have not been introduced to Maria before, A, I would love to know what rock you're living under in VetMed because she has been on the podcast so far already this year, I think multiple times now at this point, between doing some episodes with me and Andy and both of us, and she is doing a lot of presenting in the Uncharted world and outside of it. You tell us though, for anybody who has been living under that rock, how you found us, where you came from, what your background is.
Maria Pirita:
Oh man. I feel like it's totally normal if people don't know me because it feels weird to think that they would, but I am everywhere. The reason why is because I love talking to people in veterinary medicine. I think the people that work in VetMed are just so uniquely amazing. And I have Golden Retriever energy, so every time I go to conferences, anytime I go anywhere, I'm just talking to everybody. And so usually, that's how people know me. But my background actually comes from leadership outside of veterinary medicine at first. A lot of the food and retail industry. And then when I started in veterinary medicine 10 years ago as a receptionist, I took a pay cut for better work-life balance from retail, which is the running joke. And then I started as a receptionist. I worked as a veterinary assistant before I was promoted to the marketing manager. And then eventually, a hospital administrator for a multi-doctor practice. And so I was doing all of the veterinary stuff for about 10 years.
Like I said, in that process, I loved talking to everybody in VetMed because I feel like the people that work in our industry are just so passionate about not just animals, but also people. And I think that that's always so refreshing and fun to see. So I would talk to a lot of people at conferences and in the online communities and forums. I think that's where I met you Stephanie as one of the online groups before we started working together on Uncharted. And so usually-
Stephanie Goss:
I was actually a Maria Pirita fan before Maria-
Maria Pirita:
Oh, thank you.
Stephanie Goss:
Knew that I was a fan. I had seen her posting in a bunch of the manager groups that were in together and I thought, this girl has great energy and you were really fun and you're always so positive, which is something that's important to me.
Maria Pirita:
Oh, thank you.
Stephanie Goss:
And then I heard you on another podcast, actually, I think I heard your episode on our friend Clint's podcast. And I was just like, this chick has some good things to say, and I was a fan girl, I was intrigued. And so I started watching the things that you were doing. And when I knew that we were growing our team, I said to Andy, “Hey, I might know someone who might that be a good fit for us.” And so I take full responsibility for bringing Maria Pirita into the Uncharted fold.
Maria Pirita:
That's right.
Stephanie Goss:
I don't let Andy claim that victory, although he will try. So now all of our listeners know the truth.
Maria Pirita:
It's true.
Stephanie Goss:
And no one's going to let him get away with it.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah, it's true. That's so funny, its because it feels like it was so long ago, but when we first met, but yeah, you're right. It was a podcast that I did, The People of Veterinary Medicine, it was the first podcast that I ever did, I think. And I remember mentioning The Uncharted Podcast and how that one was really good. And then, yeah, I think I did a few lectures since then and was just trying to help as many people as possible. And before you knew it was like, “Hey, I know you and I know you.” And when the time came to that, I had to leave my clinic because of my husband's job, we were moving. I literally reached out to a lot of my friends in the industry and was like, “Hey, I'm going to be looking for a job. Do you know of anyone that's hiring?”
And when I reached out to Stephanie, I swear I thought she was going to tell me like, “Oh yeah, these five different companies are hiring.” Working at Uncharted was a total dream, and I did not think that that was even going to be a possibility. And then she told me that they were actually, they had some positions. And so I was obviously ecstatic, and I do think that I accidentally manifested that. I don't know if I ever told you this story, Stephanie Goss, but I forgot about this. But essentially, when I was the marketing manager of a clinic in 2013 and I had found Dr. Andy Roark, and I don't think Uncharted Podcast was out yet, but I was a big fan when it did. And I think in 2013. Around 2015 ish when Uncharted started, I used to joke around with my team like, “man, that Dr. Andy Roark guy is so great. I'm going to work for him one day.”
And I said it as a total joke because I didn't know where he worked. I didn't know anything. And that was the running joke was that you don't even know this person, right? You're not going to work for him. And I forgot that I used to say that because it had been years until one of my friends that knew me at the time was I told him, I was like, “yeah, I just started his job with Uncharted Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss.” And he's like, “Hey, remember when you used to say you were going to work for them?” And I was like, “oh my gosh, I totally forgot that I used to say that.” And yeah, so I'm not surprised because the universe and things, but.
Stephanie Goss:
So you manifested it-
Maria Pirita:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
With your positivity. And we're going to talk about that positivity and being a Golden Retriever a little bit today. But I want to give a big shout-out to our friend Clint Latham. And if you have not listened to The People of Veterinary Medicine podcast, you should start and you should listen to Maria Pirita's episode. This should be your very first episode. So shout out to Clint because his podcast is awesome, and Maria's got an episode on there and you should check it out.
But the reason that I was like, Hey, hi, I need to do this episode with Maria is because I got a question in the mailbag about isolation, which anybody who's listened to the first couple of minutes of this is like, “Hi, these are two of the most bubbly hyper people ever. What would they know about being isolated?” And I thought this letter was perfect for both of us because we both came to our positions in the practice through moving up in the practice. And so we both started out not in a management position and moved around and we got a letter in the mailbag from a veterinary assistant who has been in the field for a long time, and they have just in this last year moved up into a practice management role. And their circumstances are a little bit unique in that they are working in the practice with the practice owner who has a hand in managing the practice. And their practice manager who has been managing to this point is still involved in the practice as well. And that is actually a position that I have personally experienced as well. And so I think I have some unique perspective maybe there in terms of working with the people who are your predecessors and who are still involved in the clinic and trying to grow things and change things when they're still involved.
And the heart of this email, which I think resonated with both you and I was just this general feeling that this is someone who is overwhelmingly positive, they're excited about their position, they talked all about the passion that they have for their position and for the industry. And they are really struggling because they feel like they are watching themselves go from the perky, happy Golden Retriever, cheerleader if you will, which resonates with both of us to someone who feels like they are the villain and who feels like they are getting blamed for a lot of things. And they're really struggling with coping with the idea of going from being liked by everybody on the team to being the villain in everybody's story. And so ultimately the question that they asked was, because I'm feeling this way, am I doing things wrong? And they gave us some great examples about things that are happening and things that they are trying.
But really the end result is that they have moved from a position of being a part of the team, into a role as a leader. And they are now in the unique position that you and I both know very well, which is that as a manager, you are not going to be everyone's friend and you are not going to make everybody happy. And they are struggling with that space of feeling like they're working so, so hard and they are trying to stay positive, and that weight of feeling like you're the bad guy is sitting really, really heavy on them. And so I read this and I was like, oh, hi, you and I are both Golden Retrievers and we love to talk to people and we love other people, and we came from the team. And I think we both said we saw a lot of ourselves in this. And so I thought it would be a fun one for you and I to talk through together.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah, absolutely. As soon as I read the question, I was like, yes, yes, 100% I will do this episode because I have absolutely been there and I've been there multiple times actually, because I think that this is a unique problem. I'm sorry. I think this is not a unique problem to veterinary medicine. This is a leadership situation that can happen in any industry. And the first time that it happened to me, it was actually when I was the assistant manager of a pizza place. And that was the first time that I really, really felt that pressure of friendship and it was really, really hard. And then again, I felt it again in veterinary medicine, very similar to your situation, Stephanie. Mine, the practice manager had stepped down, but she had put in her notice, and so she wasn't there anymore. But a couple of the people that were on the team were still, her best friend was there, her son was there. So there was a lot of people that were still there that were in connection with the former manager that had stepped down. And it is a very difficult position to be in for sure.
So it's similar but not quite the same as your situation or this person's situation. Because I didn't have to deal with the previous manager being there for that long, but it's almost like it felt like some of those things that remained behind were still similar to the situation, I think. And so I'm excited to dive into this for sure.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Okay. So let's start with headspaces as we do. The first thing I think that's really important is that it is really lonely at the top, and Andy and I have done a podcast in the past, I think it's actually called, Is Lonely at the Top. And I'll throw the link to that in the show notes for everybody. But if you haven't, especially if you're a writer, if you haven't listened to that episode, take a listen to that because I think it is that transition to being the leader is really, really hard. We've done a couple of episodes, in fact, Andy and I just recorded an episode about being friends with people on the team that's coming out before we do this episode. So it is about, oh, I don't know what the title is. Anyways, I'll link that in the show notes as well. But it's about fraternization but not the naughty kind.
It's about-
Maria Pirita:
It's important we note that.
Stephanie Goss:
It is. It's about being friends with the team and how do you balance if you do have a friend on the team and hanging out with them and that stuff. So there's a couple episodes out there that I think are really important. And I think the number one piece for me or where I would start with headspace is recognizing that it is hard. It is a really hard job and it is lonely because ultimately at the end of the day as a leader, and it doesn't matter whether you are a manager and you are in charge of directly supervising people's performance, I would argue that that actually makes the position harder, not easier. Or if you are a leader in the practice in the sense that you are a practice owner or someone who is not directly necessarily supervising all of the other team, but you're still making decisions, it is very, very lonely because at the heart of your job is making decisions. And when you are a decision maker, you can never make everybody happy.
Maria Pirita:
Absolutely.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I think from headspace perspective, getting straight with that and leaning into that is a part of evaluating the job process that I don't think we spend enough time on. We think about do I have the skills to do the job? Am I excited about the possibility of trying new things? Do I have the skill set it takes? We think about all of those things. And yet I know from my personal experience, I didn't often ask myself the question of do I want to be in the position that this job is actually going to put me in? Because our initial thought is, oh, this is success. And success means climbing the ladder and it means growing and stretching and getting new titles and trying new things and all of the exciting things that come along with that, because a Golden Retriever, right? We look at the shiny objects and we're like, “Yes, this is awesome.”
And at the same time, the reality is when we grow in that way, especially in the practice, we should also be asking ourselves the question of this means I'm a decision maker if that's what the job entails. Do I understand the pros to that and do I understand the cons to that? Because there are pros and cons, always. There are always two sides at least. And I don't think, I know myself, I didn't weigh the gravity of that. And I think it's one of those things that I don't know that you can, until you experience it, you have to get into it. But I do think that it's important to ask yourself, do I understand what this job is actually going to be asking me to do? Because I think the answer for most of us is probably no.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. Or I think we do think we understand, so that becomes an issue. But yeah, I find that also a lot of that isolation happens because practice manager is such a unique position within your practice in general. There is usually, depending on the size of your practice, multiple veterinary assistants, multiple receptionists, or maybe even multiple doctors, but there's almost always only one practice manager. And so I find that part of that isolation comes from you are in a unique role of you've got orders and decisions, like you said, coming from the top and you're still trying to keep your team in mind, but there's only so many people that you can talk to about your situation, or at least it feels that way within your clinic, right? Because you don't want to share things that you shouldn't be sharing. And so I think that that also causes some of that isolation on top of the fact that we, and it's hard for us.
Actually, in my situation, it was a little unique because I took a long time to accept the practice manager position because I was a little different in the sense of I loved being a marketing manager because I didn't have a team and it was just me and it was really fun. And I knew that being a leader in other industries, I knew that there was going to be some stuff that came with it that was going to be significantly more difficult. I did not understand the gravity of how difficult that was going to be for me at that time because I'm like, okay, well let me think about it. And so I did even take, I took probably about a month I want to say before I accepted the position, and I started helping with some things here to help my practice owner, but I think it took about a month because it initially wasn't something that I was trying to get or be. I was very comfortable in my marketing position.
And like you said, it was one of those things it's like, well, it is to go up, right? I want to move up with the company and so I can do that, but I understand that there's going to be some things and I am absolutely a Golden Retriever. And at the time, I was friends with everyone and I was like, this is going to be really, really difficult. And so I need to really-
Stephanie Goss:
It's going to change.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah. I think I needed to sit down. And what helped me was to sit down and think about, okay, well why am I even considering because there's a reason why I'm considering it, right? And it ultimately for me came down to being the fact that I really wanted to build a different culture and I wanted to build something a little bit more unique in the sense of I have the leadership experience that could really benefit this clinic and I know what I have to do, but I also know it's going to be a lot of work. I know I recognize when you're trying to change a culture, it is going to be a lot of work, you are going to have to put that work in. And so I think I recognized that it was going to be a lot of work. I still underestimated how much work it was going to be I think in my experience. And then it took me a while to figure out that I could share some of my experiences, maybe not with the rest of my team, but even though there's only one practice manager in every clinic, every clinic has a practice manager. So that's when I started really network into the who else is a practice manager that could help me along this process. And I think that that made a difference too.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay, so hold that thought, because I think that is for sure on my action step list is talking about the value and the power in connecting with our colleagues. But I want to circle back to something that you said before. You mentioned that, which I think dovetails really nicely to the second piece of headspace, because no matter what, you said, you were looking at the reasons why you were taking the job. And I think that that is really, really important.
And in our email, our listener and our writer has a great why that is very clearly defined. They said they wanted to create the workspace that I wished that I had had in the industry in my first 15 years in practice. And to create an environment that is filled with healthy and happy support staff who know that their bosses and their work care about them and so that they are able to better care for their patients in return.
And while a lofty goal, and I'll explain why I think it's lofty in a second, not that I think that it's unattainable, not that, but I do think that it's a lofty one. It is an amazing why and it's very clearly defined. And I think that that is wonderful and I want to applaud them because for a lot of us, it takes them soul-searching, like you said, to figure out why am I actually doing this? What is my why? And then even if we know our personal why, it's usually in my experience with myself and my peers, not clearly define enough that I could share it with another person. And so kudos to this writer because they can very clearly define it.
Now, I want to explain my lofty comment that was not a dig. I think it's an amazing why. And the reason why I think it's lofty ties to my second piece of headspace, which is that in order to create a healthy, happy, supportive environment, the first part of their sentence was that they wanted to create the space that they wished that they had had. And so I think what they're wanting to accomplish, even though it is change for the better, it is still change. And from a headspace perspective, I think it's really, really important that we address the elephant in the room, which is that change is really, really freaking hard and veterinary medicine hates change.
Maria Pirita:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't know if I did that right. Mm-hmm. I just need to make sure I did it right, because it's absolutely a very yes, 100%. I'm so glad you said that. Change is hard.
Stephanie Goss:
Change is hard.
Maria Pirita:
It's so hard.
Stephanie Goss:
Even people who love change and who thrive in the environment of change, Andy Roark. Even for people like our beloved boss who love change and get excited about it, it is hard. Change is hard. It is hard for human beings. And if you've not read the Amazing Works by Dr. Brené Brown, if you have not explored some of the positive psychology stuff that is out there, I think that's a great place to start because it's all about unlocking the science behind our little caveman brains, and our little caveman brains just tell us that change is hard. And when we have an environment where we feel safe and we have the basics that we need to sustain ourselves, the hardwiring tells us that we should stay in that space and not move from it because we are safe and we are protected and we have the things we need. And so asking a whole group of people to change and go away from what they know, even if they're not super happy about it, even if they don't love it, they're getting their basic needs met, the inertia required to make that change is immense. And so I don't think that it is an unattainable goal, but I do think that it's lofty from that perspective because it is going to require building that inertia for the whole group. And that is tough, tough work my friend.
Maria Pirita:
And I think we also have to acknowledge that it's going to take time. And so based on this email that we've received, I think this person said they were in a year and a half-ish, and I want to acknowledge one thing real quick. You are so wise, the reader that submitted this in or this listener that submitted this in is so wise to sit and be like, “This is where I'm at and I have this situation and I'm coming to people who have been there or know maybe what to do.” But I think that if you're already listening to this podcast or other veterinary management podcasts, you are so wise because you're going out into the resources that you know have. And so I think that that also needs to be said is that you're coming here to a place in which we talk about these things and you're going to get some feedback on what can be done.
I'm going to tell you right now that it's going to take time, it's going to take work. It is absolutely possible. I've seen it happen. But like Stephanie said, it's a lofty goal. So you need to understand that it's going to take work and it's going to take time. And so I'm not saying it's going to take another three, five years, but it could take another year for you to really see the big changes. And a lot of times that's how it goes. You go work out. Work out is my brain right now because that's what I've been doing, but it's been three months of working out regularly and I am only down 20 pounds. And it's been three months. Okay. I'm tired.
Stephanie Goss:
You're working hard.
Maria Pirita:
It's a lot of work, but also we have to look at it as progress. I am already down 20 pounds, I'm only 10 pounds away from my goal, and so this is very similar. I love that you can define your why. I love that you know that I love that you're here, that you're wise enough to recognize that, hey, I need guidance on this. And then also, don't be afraid to celebrate where you are. Because I'm sure some changes happen for the better and you need to be able to recognize that and have a metric to look at it beyond that too. So I think that's also needs to be mentioned in the headspace piece.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, totally. So knowing that it's hard, it's lonely at the top, you're not going to make everybody happy. Your role as a decision maker means that you're going to make people unhappy in fact. And probably repeatedly over time, knowing that you're not in this alone, this is really common. A and B, there are other managers out there and so we're going to address that in action steps. I think it is a possible goal and it is possible to change, but to your point, remembering that it is going to take time. I think those are some pretty good headspace pieces. Is there anything else from the headspace perspective that you can think of, Maria?
Maria Pirita:
No, I think we covered it. I think that's, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. Okay. Then why don't we pause here for a second. I've got some action steps that I want us to dive into and I want to get to the heart of the question that they asked about being a villain in everybody's story because that's going to be the fun part. So let's take a break and we'll come right back and dive into some action steps.
Hey friends, I said it at the beginning of the episode, but I am delivering some info for you that's super important, which is we have one of my favorite events coming up. That's right. We are doing our Practice Manager Summit. It's something that is near and dear to my little manager heart, and I'm super, super excited because I am going to be sharing this experience with some of my favorite people in veterinary medicine and someone that I am excited to fan girl over because I have been following her for a really long time and I've never had an opportunity to meet her and I'm super excited about it.
So if you are a manager listening to today's podcast and you have not checked out the info, head over to unchartedvet.com/upcoming-events and you will be able to find the Practice Manager's Summit page and sign up to see all of the information about the program and the workshops. It's one day virtual summit. It has got a price point that I am hoping fits into everybody's CE budget, because we would love to see you there. It is going to be jam-packed. We've got awesome speakers and I'm going to tell you a little bit more at the end of the episode about that workshop I said at the beginning was coming, so stay tuned. And now, back to the podcast.
Okay, so let's talk about some action steps because let's talk about being the villain. So this manager asked specifically, how do you cope with going from being liked by all to being the villain? And they gave us some really, really great examples that I thought were so awesome. And so, because they're so basic, and so I think this is going to be one of those episodes where it's so funny how often I get messages, text messages from friends messages on Instagram or Facebook from people who are like, “Hey, I was listening to this week's podcast. Were you on a fly on the wall in my clinic? Because I swear to God, you guys were talking about me.” And so I think this is going to be one of those episodes.
But they were like, one of the examples was I gave some extra tasks to someone on the team who was asking for some more responsibility, and they heard some backhanded comments from other people on the team that now that they were playing favorites because they were giving that other person extra things to do and not everybody else. They made some announcements about following safety guidelines, and this is one of my favorites, this is where I know that other people are going to feel heard on this. The thing that I did was God forbid that I make everybody wear their radiology safety equipment.
Maria Pirita:
Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
So one of the first things that I did was because I was just brush out of tech school when I started as a manager and I was like, hi, none of us are wearing our gloves when we take x-rays, and I know, I know, I know how bad it is. We all know the things that we're supposed to not go into X-ray without where it's our lead apron, it's our thyroid shield, it's our dosimeter badge , and it's our freaking gloves. And yet, I know I'm not the only person who's going to say this big, no, no out loud and say that we take X-rays without our gloves.
I see them, I still got a radiologist cringe when you would send out the films and you'd see somebody's little phalanges in the image, they weren't wearing their gloves, right?
Maria Pirita:
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Goss:
So I remember vividly telling everybody, “Hey guys, we have…” Because we got a notice. I was in California at the time and they take everything seriously. Government-wise. And we got a notice that they were coming to do an inspection of our facility. And so I was like, “Holy crap, we better be following the rules.” And so I put out a notice to everybody and I was like, “Hey, we have to start wearing gloves when we were taking our X-rays.” And you would have thought that I was Cruella de Ville, people that I hung out with every night, we would go out to the bar and I literally would be sitting there with them having a drink and all they would be doing was complaining about how I was the meanest person on the planet, because it was so much harder for them to do their job and wear gloves when they were taking X-rays.
And it sounds so ridiculous, but I remember in the moment laughing it off with them but also inside feeling like, are you guys serious right now? I'm just asking you to do your job. I don't understand. I get it. I get that it makes it harder. I get that positioning is more difficult. I get that the gloves that we were using 20 years ago were not super user-friendly, not that they're super user-friendly now, but they are more user-friendly than they were back then. All of those things. I totally get it. And at the same time, it was hard for me to feel, I felt what this listener felt, which is like I am Cruella here apparently, and all I'm asking is for you to do your job, right?
Maria Pirita:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Because as a technician. I learned in school, I knew the reason why. I knew the why behind what I was asking. My friends did too. But it was easier for them to complain and to poke fun at me. And they weren't doing it, they weren't being spiteful, they weren't being mean. No one was like, “Bitch please.” It wasn't like nobody stood up to me in the treatment room and was like, “F-off, I'm not going to do this.” But it still was that environment of here's the thing that I'm doing because I'm trying to follow the rules. I'm trying to make sure that we don't get fined when the inspector comes to the practice, and yet everybody is giving me a hard time over it. And so I think it's really important to recognize that from an action step perspective, that there is always going to be your role is to enforce people doing their job.
Your role is to make decisions that are not going to make everybody happy because the reality of being a decision maker is someone will always be unhappy. And it's like being a parent. It brings immeasurable joy and there are still times where I tell my kid, “Go brush your teeth,” and you would think it's the end of the world. I'm not telling them for my own, because it's fun. I'm telling them because I don't want their teeth to rot out of their face and I know as adults they don't want to either, but they're still going to argue with me and yell at me and they're freaking teenagers now. My parents who are listening, get me here. It's the same with our team. And I think it's really just important to recognize that there will always be perception by the team that does not match up to the reality of your position.
No, I'm not asking you to wear your gloves in radiology because I'm literally trying to make your life more difficult, but the perception of my friends at the time was I'm asking them to do a thing that is making their job more difficult in their minds and maybe realistically to some degree is true, and so therefore I'm the bad guy. That's just reality when you're a decision maker in the practice. And so I think from an action set perspective, understanding that and acknowledging that ultimately goes a long way to smoothing things out and making the road be a little bit more even. I started acknowledging it and calling it out to the team when I realized it's not going to make everybody happy. I don't know that it made it better, but to be able to say to them, “Hey guys, listen, I know it's easier to take X-rays without your gloves on. I've done it and this is why I need us to make this change. And I am not asking you to do something I'm not going to do. If you see me walk into X-ray and not put my gloves on, I want you to call me out on it too, because asking you to make this change for a reason.” It's acknowledging that and understanding that their perception can be negative. I think calling that out makes a big difference.
Maria Pirita:
And I love what you said about understanding that perception because that was on my list as number one too because even if it's just moving or shifting examples, right? Because the one that stuck out to my brain is, oh, I gave more responsibility to this one person and they think now that I have favoritism, and how funny is that that you gave more work to somebody and they were like, “Oh, you must like her more because you're giving her more work.” It is hilarious. But we have to understand what perception does, right? And perception, even though we know that there's probably a good reason why you gave this work to this person, whether it be her skills, whether it be that she had the capacity, whatever the reason it was, you have to understand that because you are now in a management role, there's always going to be that perception of favoritism whenever we do certain things.
And so keeping in mind that that perception is always going to be there. There are some things that I had to do, especially with certain team members in the sense of like, “Listen, I know that back when we were friends, I used to go out and get us both coffee, just you and I. But because I'm in a management role now, I'm only going to get coffee when I can get coffee for the whole team, because I don't want people to think that I'm showing favoritism towards you because they already know that we were friends before I wasn't a manager.” We have understand the perception, so understand the perception in the sense of if you're going to lunch regularly with one person in the clinic, there's going to be the perception that you like that one person better than anyone else. And so later on when you give that one person the job or the task, you're fighting the perception that that's going to be there no matter, even if the favoritism is not there, the perception for the rest of the team is there. And that can cause enough of a reality in their brains to create problems, to gossip, to have that feeling of, “Well, the only way I'm going to get ahead is if I'm her favorite,” and things like that. So understand that that perception is going to be there no matter what.
Stephanie Goss:
And I love that and I love your example about coffee because such a good one. One of those things that it's easy to think of. And I think your point about giving them more work to do is super solid because gosh, who would've thought that giving someone more work would indicate favoritism? But it is true. And so I think just for me, another piece to unlocking that and creating open door if you will, an open door for my team. Because I think the other thing from an action step perspective is to figure out how is this manager learning about a lot of this? And I suspect from their email that they're learning a lot of it third hand. So other people, they feel like they're getting talked about behind their back and they're probably hearing about it from one or two people on the team. Maybe people are saying things to their face. But I know in the beginning for me it was getting fed that information by the people who were my friends and who were like, “Oh, hey, just so you know, today in the treatment room everybody was talking about this thing and they were all mad about it.”
And so I think it's important to recognize how are you getting that information because that is really unhealthy environment. And while it is good in the sense that you are learning about things that you wouldn't maybe know about otherwise, it is also really unhealthy because no matter how much those people care about you, the information that you're getting is always filtered through the telephone filter of the fact that they love you and they care about you. And so it is to be their perception of what happened. And so it does not ever allow you to judge for yourself what is happening. And so as a leader, the best thing that you can do is create an environment and create safety and space for your team to speak up and say those things to your face, even though it's a lot harder to take, it's a lot harder for your team to do paving that road so that they feel comfortable and confident asking you, “Hey, I saw that you gave Maria extra things to do the other day, and I don't think that's fair. Because I think that we all should have the opportunity to do that extra work.” Who says that?
Maria Pirita:
It had to have been fun work. It had to have been fun work as the only thing. It must have been-
Stephanie Goss:
Okay, so let's just say they got to do a fun project or something that everybody was excited about. Because honestly, the best thing for me as a manager would be for someone to say that to me because then I have the opportunity to pause and think about why did I actually make that decision? Because when we do that, we are forced to actually examine our own bias. Did I give it to Maria because I trust her and I know she'll just do it without complaining? I shouldn't tell my team that in those words.
And if there's truth to that, I also should create a space where I can give them that kind of feedback. “Oh, I knew that Maria would up for the challenge and she would be totally willing to do whatever I threw at her, and she let me know that she was done with all of her daily checklist. So I knew that she needed something to do today.” I would love to consider you for things like that in the future. It would help me if I knew when you were done with your tasks the way that I did Maria so that I could consider that. And also, I need to know what you're up for. So let's have a conversation about what you're interested in and what you'd be up for, what do you like about it? And are you excited about actually doing this thing? Because she was really excited about the project, but is there another project that might interest you? It opens the door to have those conversations and call out the reason why I made that decision in the first place.
And sometimes honestly, the reason is Maria was standing there and so I was just like, “Hey, I want you to go do this thing. You're standing there, you look like you don't have anything to do.” Because the reality is that's how we make a lot of those decisions. Sometimes there is thought and forethought in the way that we react as a manager. And also, we're trying to keep 10 million plates spinning at once. And so sometimes there's not thought in it. And I think that the value for me, the Jedi mind trick was really getting to the place where I created the safety amongst my team for them to both share those things with me to my face, and also for me to be able to be honest with them and tell them. This is hard because especially if you are one of those people who says what you think without a filter, hi, it's me.
Maria Pirita:
It's me.
Stephanie Goss:
I'm the problem, it's me.
Maria Pirita:
All I can say is you should have seen me in high school. It was a lot worse back then, okay?
Stephanie Goss:
I really had to work to develop that filter because young manager Stephanie would have said, “Oh, Maria was literally standing around. And so I gave her a job to do.” And that may be okay to say that, but may also require a little more tact or a little more finesse to be useful as a tool to be able to say something like, “Oh, I knew Maria was looking for things to do because she communicated to me that she was already done with her checklist. If you would love to take on other things, just let me know when you have some free time and I'd be happy to give you something to do.” Right? I'm saying the same thing, but it's the way that I'm saying it that's very different and they create different responses and different environments with the team, and that I think just takes time and skill.
But I think that goes to the heart of the feels expressed in this email from this manager have to do with the fact that I think that they're probably hearing a lot of this secondhand. And so recognizing that how you're hearing it, even if you're hearing it with the best of intentions is being filtered through their perception. And so the best thing for you as a leader is to work really hard. And again, this is Rome is not built in a day. You have to lay the groundwork and this is going to take time, but creating that space where your team feels safe and confident and comfortable sharing those things with you directly.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah, absolutely. And that actually goes with what I had written down for my second step was really to acknowledge the shift in things. And what I mean by that is the shift in your role as a practice manager is something that you do at some point have to acknowledge. And I remember when I was in the clinic setting and I had somebody that came up to me, “Yeah, I noticed you don't go out with us for drinks as much as you used to.” And I was like, “Yeah.” It's one thing. For one, I had really moved far away and so it was a little bit harder. And for two, I had to explain to them that… And what she meant with us was she meant with us three, three out of my team of 15. And I had to explain to her at that time being like, “Hey, yeah, I'm trying to go less unless the entire team is there.” And truly, sitting down. And we had a discussion about what that meant because I didn't want people to think…
And I had that discussion from her view like, “Listen, you've worked really hard to where you are right now and we're friends, and if I do these things go only for drinks with the three of you, there's going to be this perception of favoritism and when that happens, you will get some of that heat. And I don't want that for you. People will start to think that the work that you've done, the only reason you're promoted to anything is because we're best friends or they'll give you the cold shoulder if they think that you are getting less work than I am. And so we have to address this, not just that this is better for the clinic and for myself, but it's also better for you in a lot of ways.”
And so having that discussion early on and setting your boundaries early on as a manager is really, really important. Because I think sometimes too, and this comes from what you were just saying of getting that third party, the information almost from a third party source right? You need to be able to set that boundary early on of like, “Hey, I appreciate that you're giving me this information. I need to know when this happens in the moment so that I can go in there or if there's a certain way for us to submit this.” Sometimes it is just the way in which it's communicated because I think immediately of like, “Oh, well everyone in the treatment room was talking about how they hated that this happened.” Immediately, I'm going to question everyone, or was there just a few people? That's a big deal. Was it everyone? And they were talking about they hate it or were they talking about how they disliked it? And were they talking about that they hate this or they just dislike the certain way which it was done?
You are 100% right. You're getting the information completely filtered. And it could be to protect you or it could be to get just their perception of how it was. To them, it might've been everybody, but really everybody was only three out of your team of five. There's still two people who don't care that they have to wear their gloves. And it's just one of those things of setting the boundary of when you come with information like this, I need specifics of when did it happen, how many people were there who has an issue with me so that I can address it with them in the moment.
And I think you also mentioned a couple of different tools that can be used. One, you said making that a safe space for everybody. Absolutely. I want to create the space of having this open door. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to be available all the time. And this is something that I talk about in my communication boundaries when I talk about this. And which is coming up actually, I have a boundary setting a workshop at Practice Leadership Summit in December if anyone is going to that specifically for the practice manager and practice owner relationship.
Stephanie Goss:
Love it.
Maria Pirita:
But what I was getting at was that you can set those boundaries early on about, “Hey, when you come to me, this is how.” But there's also tools that can be used. So for example, like anonymous forms so that everybody can feel comfortable bringing up information with you if there is a situation. And then things like one-on-ones. What is the cadence of them being able to bring up things when they're unhappy? Because if somebody brought this up at a one-on-one with me of, “Hey, so-and-so got more work and that's work that I would've really liked to do.” That's something that I would've hopefully heard during a one-on-one, not coming from somebody else telling me that they're upset that I gave it to this other person. And the information's just going to be better that way because you're getting it firsthand, not from other people. So I think you mentioned a couple of those tools there, which are important to address.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think one of the tools that was most helpful for me there was learning the power of starting wide. And young manager Stephanie, I remember vividly several times hearing things third hand and then going to the person and being like, “Well, I heard that this happened and I want to address it.” Even though I'm trying that conversation with the best of intentions, it's confrontational. It's immediately going to put them on the defense or on the offense. They're going to either get heated or they're going to be like, “No, I didn't participate in that conversation.” Because who's going to admit that they were standing in the treatment room talking smack about their boss immediately putting them in a no-win situation. And so, one of the most valuable tools that I ever learned to use as a manager is just, how's it going? And then shut up and listen to their answer.
I love that you brought up, I think that that is such a powerful environment. And your team's going to be afraid of it. If you've never had regular sit downs with them, they're going to feel like they're getting called to the principal's office. And this is where you've got to let some of the things go that have been happening. I know that you're upset about it. I know you've been heard because they've been talking about it. I know that yesterday they may have been talking smack about the fact that you suggested let's have daily rounds to check in and make sure how everybody's day's going. Whatever the thing is, they're hacked off about it, but you've got to let it go. Let it channel Elsa, move on from that shit. Because you have got to get to the place where they are talking to you and bringing up current real-life examples that they are telling you about directly so that you can actually do something about it because the hearsay is not going to help anything.
And if you create that safety and then you sit down with them and you've created an environment where they're telling you about things and then you're like, “Hey, I want to talk to you about these things that you've been doing over the last three months,” you're undoing all of that work that you just did and you're immediately putting them right back on the defensive. So you've got to let it all go. And you've got to figure out how do you create that space moving forward. And so if you're not sitting down and having regular check-ins with them, start purely with the intention of asking them, how's it going? Is there anything at work that you're loving right now? Is there anything at work right now that's making your life more difficult? There are some really easy questions that you can ask and we can… Google is your friend. Friends.
I get asked all the time like, “I don't even know what would I ask in a one-on-one? What does that look like?” There are some great blogs out there about what does a one-on-one look like? What questions can you ask? I have a list and I get asked all the time. I think my list has, I don't know, it's coming up probably on 200 questions of things that I can ask on all different topics in one-on-ones, I got them all from Google. And from reading blogs and hearing what other managers are asking. And someone will bring up, we'll be talking about one-on-ones in a manager's group, and somebody will say, “Oh, I asked my people this question.” I'm like, “Oh, that's gold. I'm writing that down.” And then I adjust it. But it's starting wide and asking the question, how's it going? What do you love about work? What is making your life more difficult?
And then whatever they give you, if they give you nothing, great, thanks for spending the time sitting talking to me. I would love to touch base with you again next week. You conditioning them, you're training them. Andy says that all the time on podcasts. Humans are simple animals. And how do we train them? We do the same thing over and over again and we reward the behavior when it's good. So we just say, “Hey, thanks for checking in with me. Nothing's up. I just wanted to start talking, because I want to know how things are going for you. Because my goal is to create a happy and healthy space where you all love coming to work. I just want to know how it's going. And then let them walk out the door and then do it over again the next week, the next week, the next week, the next week.
And if they tell you something, then it's your job to say, “Great. I want to work on that. How can we problem solve that.” And take the examples. And they won't, most of the time, start with something big and earth-shattering that you're going to get excited about, but you take the small things and you build on them. Because eventually if you follow that path, over time, you create that space where Maria comes into my office and I'm like, “Hey Maria, how's your week going? Is there anything at work that is making your life more difficult?” And if we've spent that time and energy, then Maria has the space to say.
Maria Pirita:
Yeah, why did you give somebody more work than me? How dare you? And it's going to be real and raw, just like that.
Stephanie Goss:
How dare you?
Maria Pirita:
Because you've built trust and confidence over time. I would say-
Stephanie Goss:
Then I would, no, I don't. I am sorry that you were offended that because literally there was zero forethought in me making that decision. Andy just happened to walk by my office and looked like he needed something to do, and I was like, “Hey, do you want a project?” And he said yes. So next time knowing that you're interested in it, tell me what things you'd like to work on. Because I would love to know what I can send your way. Then it creates that space for us to have that back and forth conversation.
Maria Pirita:
And it creates this developmental piece too. I mean, if you think about it going into that example further out and being like, well, the reason why I liked it is because it's fear free and I love fear free. And it's like all of a sudden now maybe this becomes your fear for cheerleader because now you found out that they're really interested in it.
And there's one thing that you actually said, Stephanie Goss, at a lecture once, of yours that I attended to, and it was one of my favorite things that I still to this day say to young practice managers is that performance reviews are called reviews for a reason because they're review of the performance that has happened, it shouldn't be the first time that they're hearing that. And so if you're having regular one-on-ones, you're able to let them know how they're doing, get excited about the things that they're doing, and that review is indeed a review, but it shouldn't be the first time that you're bringing up what they're really good at or their goals or where they want to develop. You should already have that information and then reviewing it at the review.
And so I think it's a really good space to build connection with your entire team. It helps address things that can turn into gossip. This bottom line when you're hearing it around from the clinic, that's what it is. And so it can help you address a lot of that gossip. It can help you set your boundaries early on. It can help you acknowledge what their goals are and what they're working on. And really just one thing to keep in mind on that is that it's not going to happen overnight, like we talked about with earlier. Stephanie said it 100%, it is creating that space for them, and it's not going to happen overnight. So maybe the first time they're not going to be as open with you right away, but keep it consistent, keep it going. And they will at some point be like, “Okay, I'm going to open up this time.”
And let me tell you, when I first started one-on-ones in my clinic, half of the people were like, “Oh, cool. That sounds great.” Half of the people were like, “Another thing for me to do. We don't have the time for this.” And so just acknowledge that it's change. And we talked about this, change is going to be hard and you're going to have people that don't want to. But I will tell you, the people that were like, I don't have time for this, were some of the people that had the longest conversations with me in those rooms because they had a lot to say actually. And our relationship got so much better over time because we were sitting down regularly. So just know it's still change. It's still going to be a windup, it's still going to take time to really get it going, but once you see the results of it, you'll feel it almost. You'll feel the results and you'll be like, yes, this is something that I'm going to continue doing for a long time.
Stephanie Goss:
And then I think the last thing on building connection, you talked about building connection with the entire team, in terms of doing one-on-ones and being overly communicative and sharing the information that everybody needs with everybody in every possible way so that there can be no doubt about what you're trying to do and why you're trying to do it, I think is that you have to build a support network that doesn't include people in the clinic. And I think that that's important for two reasons.
One is that everybody needs a sounding board. And for a lot of people that sounding board is they go home and they have someone, whether it's a roommate or a partner or a spouse or their parents, and they're just like, “Let me unload my day.” Right? That's human nature. It often when it's someone who loves us and cares about us is just venting because they want us to make us feel better because they care about us.
And I think it's really important to find people in your workspace who actually understand and can help you turn it from venting into problem solving, because they help you make the conversation productive. And if you have someone in your life that you can go home to, you are getting the best of both worlds. If you have someone you can go home to and they help you turn it productive, and they ask you those challenging questions, great. If you don't, and that's I think the majority of us, because the people we live with that care about us just want us to feel happy, find that space, and find those people and find your community. Because being able to ask, “How do I solve this? How do I problem solve this? What should I try? What can I do?” To your point early on in the episode, finding the space where you can go and ask those questions both from people who have been there before, but also from people who have that bright-eyed, bushy tailed. I'm super excited. The camaraderie of putting a bunch of those people together is huge.
And so I think finding a space, whether it is a group of fellow managers in your local community, you and I are both big advocates for local manager groups. I ran ours here for a long time where there's value. And people who live in your area who see the same client issues you do in connecting with each other and looking at each other not as competition, but as allies and as resources for surviving the job, because it is hard. Or whether it is looking at that same environment on a massive scale like the VHMA, the Veterinary Hospital Managers Association, or the bigger national groups, whether it's finding a group of peers on Facebook, which is kind of how you and I got to know each other more.
Maria Pirita:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
Was in a Facebook group.
Shout out to our friends in VPMU. So if you're not in a practice group and you're on social media, there's plenty of them on Facebook and you can find your niche. VPMU is a little bit sassy, a little bit salty. It's a lot fun. There's a lot of truth tellers in that group, which is I think part of why you and I love it. It's very real and it's not for everybody. And there are other practice managers, groups that are a lot more structured, that have a lot more, let's talk about the systems and structures that we have seen work. There's groups that talk just about finances. There's groups that just talk about HR, whatever your need is-
Maria Pirita:
Marketing, yes.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, it's out there. And so I think looking at that and finding your place, obviously if you're not in Uncharted, you should be a member of Uncharted because it's the best place ever.
Maria Pirita:
Absolutely. Actually, I was just going to say, I'm pretty sure there's a recorded workshop, magical one-on-ones that I did earlier this year. And if you're a community member, you would have access to that, just saying.
But also you would have a network of amazing people-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Maria Pirita:
People in veterinary medicine that are just doing wonderful things, and it's a very positive community. And I think that's one of my favorite things about it. But I was also going to say too, if you don't find one, start one.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. I love that.
Maria Pirita:
100%. That's how they all got started. And so most of them have, there'll be usually I'm a big fan of doing the local ones and the big ones. And I will also say that if you're ever at a conference and you see myself and Stephanie Goss, come up and say hello to us.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Maria Pirita:
Because we are Golden Retrievers.
Stephanie Goss:
Love people.
Maria Pirita:
We love talking to people. And that is 100% how I made a lot of my connections. I still think about this day how I went to Chicago Veterinary Medical, yeah, CVMA Association. It was a local conference, and Eric Garcia was talking about marketing. It was a marketing manager at the time, and in his talk, he said, “Oh, add me on Facebook if you want. Let me know. I'm always wanting to help and reach out.” I don't know how many people actually did that, but I did. I went up to him and I was like, “Hey, I loved your talk just now. It was so good. I was like, I'm totally going to add you on Facebook. I was wondering if I could pick your brain about some resources.” And he's like, “Yeah, email me and I'll send them to you.” And so he did. And I remember him giving me some advice on my website at the time.
And so what I'm getting at is don't be afraid to just go up to people at your local events and say hello. And even if it's somebody that's a speaker, because believe it or not, find the people that you want to be like and put them in your network somehow, whether it's you know them on social media, they're going to be sharing the information over and over again. I oftentimes see a lot of the posts from Eric Garcia and I'm like, wow, that really hits home for me. And so I think a lot of it is we are what we consume. And so that's why I used to listen to this podcast Uncharted on my way to work every single day because it would motivate me in just the right way to be positive, to be fun and to get actionable. And so you are what you consume, and that includes your network of people. And so I highly recommend that you put practice managers in that because they're going to understand your struggle, but also people that might not be practice managers. Because at the end of the day, when you're a practice manager, you're also IT, you're also the marketing department. You're also all of these different things that I think there's different roles, but absolutely your network is where you're going to have a lot of help and a lot of guidance.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay, this was awesome. And two things. One, we're out of time.
Maria Pirita:
Surprise, surprise.
Stephanie Goss:
Surprise, surprise. And so we're going to wrap it here. And two, if our writer is listening, they're like, “But wait, they didn't talk about the other half of my letter.” And so this is going to be a two-parter because there is me, at the beginning of the episode, I talked about having commonality with them because it is hard. You and I both have worked in an environment where someone who is in the position or a practice owner is still involved and you're making decisions with them there. And so stay tuned for part two of this, which is how do you be a leader and still work with people who may not be behind all of the change that you're trying to make, because change is hard. So stay tuned for that and more of Maria Pirita, thanks for joining me today.
Maria Pirita:
Anytime. Thanks for having me.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, take care everybody. Have a great week.
Hey everyone. Thanks for joining us today. I love talking with Maria. This conversation today was no exception, and I hope that you all enjoyed it. And like I said at the very beginning, and I dropped in the middle of the show, there's a workshop that falls along these lines. So if you are someone who has been or is currently in the position of moving up in your practice and going from being friends with the team to becoming a boss, you are not going to want to miss our Practice Manager Summit, which is happening in February. And my dear friend Tami Lind, who is a technician, she is so, so funny. She is just a force, and I am so excited for you all to get to meet her at Practice Manager Summit if you haven't had the experience. And she is a manager at Purdue in the vet hospital, and she's experienced the journey and is doing a workshop about what it means to go from being a peer to being a manager. And I'm super excited about this.
We've got some other awesome speakers as well. My good friend Mike Falconer is coming back to Uncharted and going to be speaking about language and emotions of groups and teams. And then I said I was going to fan girl, and I am because Amanda Donnelly is going to be with us. And Amanda is someone who I have followed since I was a young manager and I've never had the opportunity to meet her, and I'm excited to do it virtually. She is going to be doing a session about creating a culture of accountability.
So if this kind of stuff, today's episode, any of these topics sound like they're your jam. Oh, and I'm going to be doing a workshop about managing team conflict, I guess. I hate talking about myself, so I totally forgot that. But I am going to be doing a workshop about managing team conflict. So any of this sounds like it's your jam, head over to the website, unchartedvet.com/upcoming-events and find out more and sign up today because we want to see you there. See you next time.
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