What's This Episode About?
This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are joined by Melissa Gutierrez, Senior Vice President and General Manager of Pets Best Insurance Services. We are super excited to talk with Melissa about an interesting question regarding pet health insurance, which is “Is people insurance the problem with pet health insurance?” Let’s get into this…
This episode is sponsored by Pets Best Pet Health Insurance.
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss: Hey, everyone. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of The Uncharted Podcast. This week's episode is being brought to you ad-free by our friends at CareCredit. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are joined by our guest, Melissa Gutierrez, who's the senior vice president and general manager of Pets Best Insurance Services. And we get the pleasure of talking to Melissa this week about a very important question that Andy and I are both really excited to dive into, which is, is people insurance [00:00:30] the problem with pet, with pet health insurance?
We are gonna talk about some of the differences between people in pet health insurance, how it works differently, and how do we educate our teams and ourselves, so that we might stop linking it to people insurance if they really are so different and if it's detrimental to pet health insurance for that to be our dialogue? Let's get into this, shall we? And now, The Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark: [00:01:00] And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie, the one and only Goss.
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: How are you doing?
Stephanie Goss: That was, that was, that was kind of a soft, quiet one, but I really like it.
Dr. Andy Roark: The w-
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: The one and only Goss.
Stephanie Goss: I l-, I like it.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: I, I will wear the crown today. (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: The one and onl-, my one and only. Um, how are you doing?
Stephanie Goss: I am great. We have a special guest with us today, which I'm really excited about.
Dr. Andy Roark: We do have a special guest. Uh, Melissa Gutierrez is [00:01:30] the senior vice president and general manager of Pets Best Insurance Services. Thank you for being with us, uh, Melissa.
Melissa Gutierrez: Thank you. I'm really happy to be here.
Dr. Andy Roark: I, uh, I am glad you're here. I wanted to, to have you on. You know, those of you who have listened to the podcast for a while know that I'm a big fan of pet insurance. I, I, I think it is rewarding for practitioners, because pets owners who have pet insurance are excited to be compliant. They're excited to do the services. Um, I think it makes the whole money part of our job go away. It's a much more rewarding way to [00:02:00] practice and they, they feel good about it.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: And so, um, anyone out there who has a practice where you talk about pet insurance and you have pet owners on pet insurance knows that you love to have pet owners on pet insurance, because they come in and they're ready to do the things that are gonna let us do our job. And so, it is deeply rewarding and also it, it, um, it makes life easier when you have pet owners who can financially afford to do the things to take care of their pets. So, I'm a big, big fan of it. I talk a lot about exam room communication.
I talk a lot about, how do we say things to pet owners? [00:02:30] Uh, you know, how do we talk in the exam rooms? How do we communicate ideas? How do we put things into people's minds, so that they get them? Like, I don't like to talk anybody into anything. I like for them to understand the reasoning behind what I'm saying and to act on their own accord and say, “Yes, this is something that I like.” The reason I wanna talk to you today is because you have a position that I've, I've come across recently that is very different than my own.
And so I'm just gonna be very candid at the very beginning and say, uh, I was, I w-, I wanna have this conversation, because what you talk about and [00:03:00] how you talk about pet insurance is very different from how I talk about pet insurance. And I wanna understand those differences. I wanna understand the reasoning behind those differences. And I kind of wanna understand your approach in your system, so that I can incorporate into what I do or, or, you know, I, I may need to update, update the way that I talk about this. So, does that sound okay?
Melissa Gutierrez: Sure. You bet.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay. So I, I have always brought people into the exam room to talk about pet insurance. And it's one of those things, I think it's best to have the conversation early and often. So, you know, it is a whole lot [00:03:30] easier. The worst thing is when, when (laughs) people have a sick pet and you're like, “Oh boy, would've been great if you had pet insurance.”
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: That doesn't help anybody. I have those thoughts-
Melissa Gutierrez: That's right.
Dr. Andy Roark: I, I (laughing), I, I a hundred percent have those thoughts. Don't, don't vocalize that. That doesn't help anybody. But, but you, that's, that's when everyone goes, “Oh.” So, so have, have it early and often, right? Talk to them, talk to them when they're, when they're, when they've got puppies and they've got kittens first time visits. I, I really think building that into the system is important. But the way that I have talked about it in the past is I have very much tied it [00:04:00] to human health insurance. And the reason I have done that is because to me, uh …
And again, this may be my own worldview as kind of a, a privileged position, I guess, where you look at, uh, health insurance and you say, “Wow, that's something that's really important.” And, and I think people may recognize the importance of that. And so when I talk about it, I do tie it to human health ins-, insurance, 'cause I, I, I always felt like it helps people to get it. The other, the other reason I, I try to tie it to human health insurance or have done that in the past is in the early days of pet insurance, I remember [00:04:30] I was a young doctor.
Maybe I was just setting the, the conversation up wrong, but early on, I would talk to people about pet insurance, and I could see them running the math in their mind. And it was like they wanted to make money on the deal. You know what I mean? They were like, “Which, which one is cheaper? Is it cheaper for me to hold my money? Or, or do I get ahead doing this?”
Stephanie Goss: Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: And so I, I mention human health insurance. And the reason I do that is because I … And I'll say to them, “It's like human health insurance. You don't want to win the [00:05:00] game. You to lose the game.” I want, I want the CEO of, uh, the health insurance company that I use 60 years from now to high-five his colleague and be like, “This Roark guy is 105 years old and has never made a significant claim.”
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: Like we have got so much of his money and paid out none of it. I'm fine with that. That, that it's ideal for me. Uh, and so I, I say that to get them to change their head space. And so that is, that's kind of the approach that I've taken. You [00:05:30] talk about distancing pet insurance from human health insurance and why it's gotten here. So, so, so lemme open the floor to you. Uh, go ahead. Just let's start broad. Uh, gimme some background, I guess, on, on how you're looking at pet insurance and then, and then let, let's walk together into, uh, ha-, how do, how do we communicate it?
And, and, and the similarities, differences and the communication strategies around that and leveraging human health insurance or, or not.
Melissa Gutierrez: Sure. And, and, uh, again, [00:06:00] Andy, thanks very much for having me. I'm happy to be here and, um, really excited to talk about pet insurance. I'm one of those people who said I would never … Well, you should know, my father was an insurance agent-
Stephanie Goss: (laughs),.
Melissa Gutierrez: … and um-
Dr. Andy Roark: (laughs).
Melissa Gutierrez: … I said … You know, after I got out of college and he's like, “Well, you should maybe apply in,” you know, I said, “Well, I might get a job, but I will never stay in insurance.”
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Melissa Gutierrez: Uh, 33 years later-
Dr. Andy Roark: (laughs).
Melissa Gutierrez: … actually, 34 years later, here I sit. So-
Stephanie Goss: That's [00:06:30] funny.
Melissa Gutierrez: … I'm one of those people who said they'd never do it, and I did it. And, um, you know, my dad is, uh, still laughing about that one. But-
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Melissa Gutierrez: … I spent a career in insurance and I think you make a really valid point, which is, lots of people do the math. And by-
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: … that, I mean, right? They, they tend to think of it as like a savings account. Like, “I'm going to be-“
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: “… I'm gonna be putting my money in, and I'm gonna get my money out.” And the reality of the matter is, when you're paying an insurance premium, regardless of the product, what you're buying is protection.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: [00:07:00] Yes.
Melissa Gutierrez: You're buying peace of mind. And many people don't think about it in that way. And so, you know, what I would say is that is one of the common things with human health. So, you know, if you use human health insurance as a way to just kind of tell people why protection is important, I think that's really valid. Our position on, can human health insurance sort of be the problem with pet insurance, has to do with a few key sort of misperceptions, I would say-
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Melissa Gutierrez: So-
Stephanie Goss: [00:07:30] Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … so fundamentally, they're both protection products. Um, you know, Pets Best was founded by veterinarians. And the idea was, we ever want, uh, economic euthanasia-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … to exist, right? We're trying-
Dr. Andy Roark: Right.
Melissa Gutierrez: … to, we're trying to, to, to move away from that. We want a pet parent to be able to do the right thing for the pet. And so when we talk about human health insurance being kind of the problem for pet insurance, there are a few key reasons we say that. One is, [00:08:00] pet insurance is regulated by the departments of insurance as a property casualty product. So, it is fundamentally different, right? In terms of just the state insurance departments and how they look at it and how they treat it.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative),
Melissa Gutierrez: And that shows up in a couple of ways. Um, number one, the concept of like a health maintenance organization or a network doesn't exist.
Stephanie Goss: Right.
Melissa Gutierrez: So, there are no preferred providers. Any veterinarian, including a specialty clinic, um, is going to [00:08:30] be, you know, a, a, a qualified practitioner.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: So, that's a big one, right? Any licensed veterinarian, uh, or emergency clinics-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … any of that, all covered by the plan. And I think a lot of times, people think, “With human health, well, it's a different system,” or “I need a referral to go to a specialist,” or, you know-
Stephanie Goss: Right.
Melissa Gutierrez: … “I can't go to an ER,” that kind of thing. So, that's one big difference. Um, the insurance policy is, is between the pet owner and the company. So, that's [00:09:00] the other part, right? With human health insurance, you're obviously having a contract typically with the insured.
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: And in this case, the insured is the pet, uh, you know, and, and s-
Dr. Andy Roark: Got it.
Melissa Gutierrez: … but the contract is with, is with the owner. And that, I'll come back to that in a minute, 'cause it's, i-, there is an important nuance here.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Melissa Gutierrez: Um, you know, I think, I think what I would say too about some of these differences, one thing is, you know, that's better for the vet. And you said, “Why?” I think, I think that it's better for the veterinarian, [00:09:30] because pet insurance is a lot easier than it is for a medical insurance practitioner or-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: … physician when you think about, you know, it's easy, right? The veterinarian doesn't have a lot of involvement. Uh, their cashflow is still their cashflow, because they get paid right at, right up front-
Dr. Andy Roark: Right.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … and then the policy holder is reimbursed after the service. But a key point here too about kind of how the contract work is a big difference with medical insurance or, you know, traditional healthcare and pet insurances, there's [00:10:00] not, uh, the carrier or the insurance carrier or provider doesn't really dictate a treatment plan. So, it's not like if you have condition A, the acceptable treatment is Condition B-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … or I mean, is, is Treatment B. So Condition A, Treatment B. Basically in this case, the, uh, policy holder, who is the pet parent and the veterinarian, are consulting on, what's the best thing to do for the pet?
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: And there's no prescribed treatment plan. There's [00:10:30] no, “You have to do it this way.” So, in many-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … cases, right? With medical insurance, you've got specialty drugs that you need to get, like go before an approval board or you need to appeal. It's not really that way in pet insurance. You know, they're, the-
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: … the treatment plans are a little, uh, less prescriptive, if you will.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh yeah. I think that that's one of the great flexibilities in, in pet insurance. Right? It's um, I've never, I've never had a pet insurance company come back and ask me about my treatment protocol. They've always, it's always been just, it's always been a pretty, [00:11:00] pretty good process. I think a lot of people, uh, in vet medicine, you know, we look at human medicine for obvious reasons, and we look for parallels. And, uh, the rise of insurance in human healthcare, uh, it was a rather terrifying thing for practitioners. And so-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: … I, I think that, um, I, I think that the, the system that we have will where pet owners get reimbursed and that's not a, a big process inside the vet hospitals, I think that, that makes a lot of sense.
Melissa Gutierrez: Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: Have there been changes in the way, during the pandemic, that pet owners, uh, interface with pet insurance? I mean, so the communication [00:11:30] process, how has that been streamlined for them? How are, how are they communicating differently than they did back in the pen, pen and fax machine days-
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: … of, of years, of years past?
Melissa Gutierrez: Yeah, no, really, you know, really, uh, great question. I mean, pet insurance is, you know, is, I guess what I would call, uh, a newer and kind of more emerging product. But certainly, those of us that have, uh, you know, apps that can allow for scanning an invoice and uploading your invoice and that kind of thing [00:12:00] are at an advantage. I think you, we, we have seen that increase, because people don't wanna work in person. And so, you know, for us, while I would say the … I don't know, that, that, uh, the pandemic brought on a really significant change.
I do believe that it forced all of us to be more innovative in the way, you know, we worked with consumers who maybe weren't comfortable with an app, for example.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: But most of us who had apps, wha-, what you have now is a lot of people who are willing to do services on the app, upload [00:12:30] their claim-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … where it might have been pen and paper in the past.
Stephanie Goss: And I think back to when I first started in vet med and having the conversation about pet health insurance with, with clients, and when you think about human healthcare, the one good thing is the client or the consumer is, I, I don't have to deal with the paperwork on the insurance side-
Dr. Andy Roark: Right.
Stephanie Goss: … in the beginning. Right? Like my, my doctor's office deals with all of that. And so when I started in veterinary medicine, that was often a hurdle with a lot of owners, [00:13:00] to your point, Melissa, because a lot of the companies didn't have apps back then. They were u-, it was pen and paper. They had to do the paperwork, and, and that was scary for a lot of them. And they were just like, “The, this is too much work. I'm not interested in doing all of that work.” Right? So, I certainly appreciate the changes that have happened, uh, in, in recent years and the uptick, I think, in clients who are like, “Oh, this is super easy.”
And I appreciate the changes that we, as an industry, have made to support that, because [00:13:30] I think that that was, that was a barrier that we didn't help clients solve for a really long time.
Melissa Gutierrez: Yeah. And you know, I mean, the other thing that is really great about pet insurance, again, not necessarily pande-, pandemic driven, but certainly, uh, you know, what I would consider to be highly innovative, but also related to the fact that it's a P&C product rather than a health product-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … is the signup process is so quick and easy.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: I mean, listen, I worked in, you know, I worked with standard property casualty, like automobile [00:14:00] insurance for many years. And, you know, you're talking about an application that's pages long, right?
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: Or with medical insurance, pages long. And with pet insurance, it is so quick and easy. It's like, you know, a handful of questions and you're, you're done. You're in.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: And so, um, what I think has been really great about it is some of those kinds of tech improvements. And then on the claims front, you know, what we're starting to see is you have all kinds of new technology coming in that makes an easy process even easier. [00:14:30] So optical character recognition where an invoice can be read and scanned, right? On, into phone. The quality of the image maybe used to be a problem-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … but now, you know, uh, it, the, the technology can kind of … You know, if your receipt's been crumpled in your back pocket for a while, right? The technology can kinda, uh, m-, address that and make it even easier.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: So it's, it's just become unbelievably easy. And, um, I have, uh, I have a little, uh, a cat, my … Well, I have two cats, [00:15:00] but my, um, my most loving cat, his name is Elvis. And Elvis-
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Melissa Gutierrez: … um, Elvis was a stray. And, you know, we went, I went to my gym where I, where I work out and, um, Jamie had found Elvis. And, um, she was looking for a home for him. And long story short, because he was a stray, I went to get him pet insurance with Pets Best.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … and he was uninsurable. However, on the app, they basically said, “Well, [00:15:30] because he, you know, is not eligible for medical insurance, but he is eligible for an accident-only policy, would you want this coverage for Elvis?” Right? Quick and easy. And so one of my cats has the full medical policy. The other one has accident-only, because he has an underlying condition, uh, an autoimmune issue that, you know-
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … makes him uninsurable. But I was still able to get coverage for him. So, you know, uh, in the case of accidents, bites, or car, whatever the case might be, you know, he's still gonna have some coverage.
Dr. Andy Roark: Can, can you speak a-, as sort of a high [00:16:00] level to start off with about the perceptions and misperceptions that you see in pet owners? Like what, do you think that they get it when they start first, see these policies? Uh, yeah. So just going from there, I guess. Do you think that pet owners tend to get it? And if not, where are their points of confusion?
Melissa Gutierrez: I think they … Uh, here's what I, I think they don't get and where their points of confusion are. And, and that's, it's related to … So, let me tell you how, how pet insurance compares [00:16:30] to a lot of other insurance. We get a lot more claims. So, as a percentage, and if you look at, if you look at a hundred people buying an insurance policy, pet insurance will get far more claims than any other insurance policy you would buy.
Stephanie Goss: Sure.
Melissa Gutierrez: So, people buy the product to use it. And that takes me to the misperception. I think that the misperception is very a often, you know, if I have an animal, and they have a condition, and it's going to require a $5,000 [00:17:00] surgery, and I know about that condition, I'm gonna go buy an insurance policy for 20 bucks a month, and get that surgery paid for right out of the gate. Right?
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: That's the misperception. And so that is what's known as a preexisting condition. And the truth is, depending on your medical plan, you know, there were plenty of, of ti-, plenty of years, like before healthcare reform, when-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … preexisting conditions were also very much excluded on medical plans and in some cases still are, right? [00:17:30] Uh, group medical plans, less so, but many medical plans, preexisting conditions are excluded. So, that's the big misperception is I have an animal, and they've been diagnosed with a condition.
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: And, uh, instead of … And, and, my, and the doctor says, you know, they need this treatment. And I know that, and I go buy pet insurance and think, I, I, you know, that that condition will be covered. That's-
Dr. Andy Roark: Right.
Melissa Gutierrez: … the big misperception. Now-
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: … the risk of a condition is a very different [00:18:00] thing, but actually knowing that that condition exists, right? And, and, uh, having been diagnosed and then, and then purchasing insurance and thinking it'll be covered. So, preexisting conditions or existing medical conditions is the big area, I think, of confusion and frustration for everyone.
Stephanie Goss: I think one of the challenges that we, uh, in the clinic have, to, to your point that you were just making Melissa, is that for a lot of clients, when we're talking to them about pet insurance, if there is a preexisting condition, Elvis [00:18:30] is a great example, right? Most people don't see beyond that. They're like, “Uh, well, they have this thing. I'm not gonna qualify. And so what is the point?” And I think where we really struggle … And I, I know I faced this with my own team in the past, is we in the veterinary field understand the risk factors for a bajillion other things that could happen to a pet in the course of their lifetime that have nothing to do with the fact that their pet, uh, has an autoimmune disease, for example, right?
So we, we [00:19:00] can see the value in accident-only support or riders that would help support the patient if things go awry in a million other ways. The clients don't understand that, because they are just looking at the problem that is in front of them. They don't have that medical knowledge for the most part. Right? So I think that is where we struggle, um, as a, as an industry and as individual teams to really explain to clients the benefits and I think a lot of times [00:19:30] where, where we are part of the barrier for, for clients accessing that care, because they don't, they don't get it.
And so they're just like, “I'm not, I'm not gonna bother.” Right? Um, and then, and then it's only when a pet experiences something like having an accident or getting hit by a car, getting bitten or for example, uh, where they're like, “Oh, I wish I had thought about that (laughing), 'cause this could have been helpful.”
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: Right? And then the conversation's angry. (laughs).
Melissa Gutierrez: Yeah, it is … That's an excellent point. And, and I do, I think it's [00:20:00] got to be very interesting for the veterinarian who, um, who does see all those risks, because it's really what we were talking about in the beginning, which is what you're buying when you're paying an insurance premium is protection. And, you know, if, if you're really, if, if you don't enter into it, if, if the policy holder, uh, the pet parent doesn't enter into it with too many sort of defined parameters around when they're get-, what they're getting, they are getting some level of protection. You just have to-
Dr. Andy Roark: Hmm.
Melissa Gutierrez: … kind of pay attention to-
Stephanie Goss: Mm- [00:20:30] hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … you know, “What am I covered for and what am I not covered for?” And I, that's a, you know, again, it is a common, it's a common misunderstanding, because when we, when we go back to, uh, people insurance, people health insurance versus health insurance, generally, generally, pet medical insurance is for an unexpected event, right? It's not, it doesn't typically cover wellness or a well check. Now, in some cases, that can be purchased-
Stephanie Goss: [00:21:00] Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … but it's usually an additional premium, it's an additional charge. And in some cases, it's not available. So-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … not all pe-, you know, not all pet insurance includes wellness. Where with human health insurance, wellness is a given.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: Wha- … So let me ask you this. So as someone who has pet insurance on his own pets, as a doctor, like, I, I have, I have my own policies on my own, on my own bad dog-
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: … uh, because, because he's, because he bad. He lit-, he literally threw up one of my kids' socks [00:21:30] right before I sat down to do this recording with you. Like that's, that's what I'm dealing with here. And so, he's insured, (laughs), because, uh, 'cause emergency work, uh, especially referral things like that, it, it's always important to me. Um, I, I have always been a bit surprised by how reticent some pet owners are to, to get signed up. Wh-, what, what do you f-, what do you think the main points that, um …
What are, what are the main points, I guess, that, that slow pet owners down? Or what, what are the, where's the disconnect there? I mean j-, if you were gonna, uh, take a, take a stab at the mind [00:22:00] of the pet owners, wha-, wha-, what are the pushback points?
Melissa Gutierrez: I think no one wants to believe that their animal will need that kind of care.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: You know? So, and that's one of the challenges with insurance marketing in general, which is it's what you call an unsought good, because nobody wants to think about the stuff you're getting protected from.
Stephanie Goss: Right.
Melissa Gutierrez: And so for me, like when you buy a new pet, you don't want to be thinking. Now, there are a few people, like my husband, who's a chemical engineer. So, he was trained in a chemical lab. He is trained to think about [00:22:30] the worst case scenario. Right?
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Melissa Gutierrez: But, but for most of us-
Stephanie Goss: Right.
Melissa Gutierrez: … most of us, when we buy a new pet, we don't think what could go wrong. Right? We are just thinking about the walks and the-
Stephanie Goss: Yep, yep.
Melissa Gutierrez: … the kisses and the snuggling. And so, I think that for … It's a human nature problem, which is, you don't wanna actually think about that terrible thing happening to your pet.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. That's super insightful. And it, and it makes a ton of se- … I love the term “unsought good.” Like that's, [00:23:00] that's emergency medicine, isn't it? I mean really is no wa-, no one is planning like, “Who's, who's gonna be the right emergency clinic for me when I have to go?” They, they, nobody wants to think that way. So talk, so let's, let's take this a little bit, and, and flip it to the other side. And so, what is the, what is the hesitancy among veterinary teams? What are th-, what are the mistakes that you see or what do you think holds vet practice teams back from making good recommendations or to be able to navigate this or, or have effective conversations with veterinaries?
Melissa Gutierrez: Um, I think largely it's the, [00:23:30] probably the, the desire … Well, for a veterinary professional, I think it is the desire to be objective and to, um, wanna deliver the best care. Right? Separate and distinct from any individual insurance product. You know, to me … And we run into it a lot, and I, I completely understand it. No veterinarian wants to really endorse kind of … I shouldn't say no, but very few veterinarians want to endorse an individual product, [00:24:00] which-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: Sure.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Melissa Gutierrez: … makes a lot of sense. Right?
Dr. Andy Roark: Sure.
Melissa Gutierrez: Um, but I do think, those tools that allow for, you know, “Have you thought about getting protection for your pet,” and “You can go to this website or you can,” you know, “get online here and just compare to find something that provides protection.” To me, that's an easy referral. And I think that's really all they want. I mean m- … So I think number one, it's it's they wanna be objective. They don't wanna be, um, seen as aligning to any individual organization. I think tools [00:24:30] are in place today to keep that from happening. My guess is, the second challenge is they're busy.
Dr. Andy Roark: Mmh.
Melissa Gutierrez: And, um, you know, like today, you know, we're … Especially with the pandemic, right? What, we're all, you know, home more with our animals, more paying attention to things that might be going wrong with them more and, you know, keeping, uh, veterinarians busy who probably are challenged to, to even staff their operations with the way the job market is today. And so I think-
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: … a lot of it is time.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: But, but to me, you've gotta [00:25:00] open that door a little. Right? You've gotta … It's almost like you have to look at pet care as it's the health of the pet, but it's also the ability to, to pay for that care of the pet. And even if it's just the matter of saying, “Have you thought about insurance?”
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, that totally makes sense. As far as making the recommendations, I guess what, what I was doing, what I always teach is I, I like, I like to have two, uh, I like to have two options for people that I can say to them, “Here are two different, uh, options that a lot of our clients use,” and, and, you know, and, and give them some guidance, 'cause there's so much, there's so many [00:25:30] companies out there, and a lot of them are just place, I, they're fly by night institutions. They're places I've never heard of. Uh, you know what I mean?
And, and just it's option paralysis too. They go and they Google pet insurance. There's a million things. I, I'm with you. I, I don't, I don't like to make a specific recommendation other than to say, “Here are two or three that our clients use and seem to be happy with.” And if, you know, if we get to a place and, and we're not happy with the service that our clients are getting, then we'll stop recommending them. And, but I feel like that's us not making a strong, pointed singular recommendation, but still giving [00:26:00] pet owners guidance, you know, so that they just don't get o-, get overwhelmed.
You know, um, you talked about, um, the, being busy. I, I think that that is an excellent point. I've been thinking and talking a lot recently about present bias, which is the sort of the natural instinct that we have to do the thing that gives us the immediate benefit, right? Like check it off our list. What is this short-term win? And the short-term win when you're overwhelmed is to get this, get this case out the door, you know, treat them and street them-
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: … and kid, get them, get them back out. [00:26:30] Um, the, the, the problem with that, you know, if, if you always take the short term thing is you're passing up on the longer benefit. And, and I, I think that that's true in pet insurance is if I lean into, we get them in and get them back out, it's the same thing with nutrition, right? And, and, and dental health. Those are the easiest things that in the short-term that I can cut from my routine, but all three of those things have significant downstream effects, you know? Um, it, it's, it really is. I, I, think it's about, it's about leaning into systems and, you know, and having a program [00:27:00] where we are busy, but we still cycle through these things.
Melissa Gutierrez: And I think, you know, on that point … I mean, it's, it's a really insightful point, Andy. And when, when you think about being a care provider, being a service provider, right? It's all about relationship.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Melissa Gutierrez: And to me, people will come back time after time after time when they have that relationship. And so, making sure that the patient is fully looked after is part of it. And so, you know, it's, it's, again, I, I don't, I, I think there's probably a misperception [00:27:30] that you have to be an expert in pet insurance to bring it up, but I think it's just enough to say, “Have you considered it? It might be of help. Lots of information available,” you know, and, and as you said, “Even a couple of choices,” or “Here's where you can go look.”
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. I, I think that, I think that that's really important. I think, you know, I'll add, I wanna add one to your list of, of reasons. I think that, that it doesn't get broader, it doesn't get communicated well. It's almost like it, it's, it's tied into the, um, the unsought good idea [00:28:00] for the pet owners. And I hadn't seen it from, from their side of the table. I, I don't like to bring up scary things to pet owners. You know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss: Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: Like, I don't wanna be the one who's like, “Hey, your pet is going to get sick. Like it, it's coming. It's, it's, uh, (laughing), it's, it's in the cards for all of us.
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: Uh, you know, like I think that's not, (laughing), that's not a relationship building conversation. And so-
Stephanie Goss: No.
Dr. Andy Roark: … I think a lot of us, you know, we don't say, “Hey, love your puppy. Super beautiful. You know, these dogs get hip dysplasia-“
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: “… and you, (laughs). Like, [00:28:30] so I, I really, I think, I think having some phrases and some graceful ways to … But Stephanie's dying. Graceful ways to bring, (laughing), these up. I, I think that that's really important, but that's the type of planning that we have to do is, you know, what are you gonna say? How do you open the, how do you open the door? Um, how do you bring up the fact that, “Hello, you just bought a Cavalier King Charles Spaniels-“
Stephanie Goss: Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark: “… and they're wonderful, loving, (laughing), loving creatures who have bad hearts, uh, [00:29:00] often, you know. Um, you bought a Boxer. Come here, we need to talk.”
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: Um, and I think … Uh, and I'm, we're joking around, but, but this stuff is important, right? Like I, like, “You have a Dotson. Uh-“
Stephanie Goss: Totally true.
Dr. Andy Roark: “… we need to talk about w-, what, why I see Dotsons in the middle of the night. Um, and, and, and what that means. And so that you can be prepared.” And so, I, it's, we joke and we laugh, but that, that is the real challenge. Right? And so, have we thought about our phrases? Have we talked to our staff about how we bring these things up and how we present something? [00:29:30] So one, I really do think is we have to be willing to wade into those, into those waters and say, “Hey, I am your veterinarian. And I care about the long-term health of your pet. And so we are gonna talk about the long-term health of your pet today and bring that up.”
And the other thing I, and I really think this is a simple thing, but it falls off the radar. You know, it's rare for anyone to say to me, “Hey, Andy, here's a really good idea,” and, and for me to go do it. I'm just, I'm busy, like everybody else is. I need to hear that three or four times, like, “Hey, have you done this? Have, (laughs), did you, did you get to [00:30:00] this?” I'm not convinced that if you really want pet owners to have pet insurance and be able to use it, that you can bring it up at the first visit and, and put it aside and never revisit it.
I, I think you have to have a graceful way to, uh, to just bring back up and say, “Hey, last time you were here, we talked about this. Did you go in that direction at all? Did you, did you research in the pet insurance?”
Stephanie Goss: And I will say that I think having, having been on the floor and having to be the one to be like, “Oh crap, did I remember to have the pet health insurance conversation wi- …” Right? When it's a new puppy or a new pet, it's easier, but to Andy's [00:30:30] point, for those follow-up visits where you know you should be saying it, you're pressed for time. And you-
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: … that is often the first thing that goes out of your mind. And I will tell you for our listeners right now who are thinking like, “This is one more thing I have to add to my list,” there was a really very simple, subtle change that, um, we made in one of my prior practices that made all of the difference in the world. And it was when everybody checked in at the front desk, the CSR teams started asking clients, “Are we billing pet [00:31:00] insurance today?”
And, uh, it was, that started the conversation, and it started it before the exam room. And it was one of those things that we did, we thought, “This is never gonna work,” but it made all of the difference in the world, both for the clients and for our team, because then if the client said, “Yes,” we would make sure, did we have their forms? Did we have an email to send them a copy of their invoice, so that they could submit it to the insurance company? Um, and if [00:31:30] they said, “No,” the CSR team could flag it, so that the exam room assistant or the technician helping the doctor had a visual cue of like, “This is a client who, who probably needs some information.”
And it was so, so simple, but it made a huge difference. And I think that is one of the barriers, to Andy's point. Everyone is so overwhelmed and everyone-
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: … is like, “I can't add another thing into the list.” And so, we don't start those conversations, because we feel [00:32:00] like … I know I have been there, feeling like, “I don't know how to completely explain insurance, and I'm afraid I'm gonna screw it up. And I don't wanna come across as a salesman. So I'm just not gonna say anything.” And to your guys'-
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: … points earlier, like, it's really easy to just say, “Hey, have you thought about insurance?” But I think for a lot of, uh, veterinary team members, that is really the pain point for them is like, “I don't really know what to say. It's a lot more time, and I'm not sure I can get into this conversation right now. So, I'm just not gonna say anything.” And they're not doing [00:32:30] it, uh, you know, with any mal intent, but, but it is, it is, um, not good for the pet in the long run when we think about it from that perspective. Right?
Dr. Andy Roark: Uh, well, I love that you set it up that way, right? So-, social proof is a big part of wellness. Uh, everybody wants to believe that what they're doing is the normal thing to do. Nobody wants to be the one person who's got pet insurance, right?
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: They, that, that, that clearly means that I'm the odd one out here. And so when the front desk says, “Uh, are we building pet insurance? Are you paying with pet insurance today?”
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: “Uh, [00:33:00] do you have the paperwork? Do you need me to pull it up?”
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: Uh, it normalizes it. Like, “They wouldn't ask if other people weren't also doing this.”
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: And it's a simple way to get, to gain trust and to bui-, to build some credibility into the recommendation that you make. I think, I think some basic training, uh, just basic training on how pet insurance works, I think is super important. I hope this podcast will be, uh, will be a, a benefit for, for staff training as well. I mean, I, I, I, I think that everybody needs to have some comfort with how it works, just so they can talk about at a basic level. I would say beyond that, [00:33:30] you don't need to know all the-
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: … ins and outs. And what I would say is, every, every policy is different. Every company is going to be different. You need to know the basic functioning mechanism of pet insurance, how it works, and then be able to say, “Here are some companies that our, our clients use and seem to be happy with. Here is the information. Reach out. You can get all the information you need from them.”
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: And, and that's as far as our people need to go down that path, but they at least need to have a basic understanding of what they're recommending and why they're recommending.
Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark: Melissa Gutierrez, thank you for [00:34:00] here. Uh, thanks for taking time, uh, talking with us. Is there any final points that you wanna make? Uh, any words of wisdom, uh, any, uh, any mistakes that we should make sure to avoid-
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Dr. Andy Roark: … as we go out into the world?
Melissa Gutierrez: No. It was absolutely a pleasure. I have, I have, uh, no, no edits. I think it was, it was a joy-
Stephanie Goss: (laughs).
Melissa Gutierrez…: … talking to both of you and really appreciate it. I've learned a few things myself and-
Dr. Andy Roark: Well, thanks.
Melissa Gutierrez…: … um, yeah, it's really very fun-
Stephanie Goss: [crosstalk 00:34:26] excess fun.
Melissa Gutierrez…: … spending this afternoon with you.
Dr. Andy Roark: Well, definitely. Come back and see us again. Uh, guys, uh, thanks [00:34:30] so much for being here. Stephanie Goss, anything from you?
Stephanie Goss: No. Ha-, uh, we are recording this right before, before the holidays. So, say happy holidays to everybody, even though it'll probably be after the holidays when this comes out. But, uh, have a great week guys.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. See you guys. Take care.
Melissa Gutierrez…: Take care.
Stephanie Goss: Thanks so much for being with us this week, everyone. We really enjoyed the opportunity to have this conversation with Melissa. And once again, we wanna thank our friends at CareCredit for sponsoring this week's episode. If you or your team wants more information about Pets Best, you can check out their website at [00:35:00] petsbest.com. We'll see you all again soon. Take care, everybody.
