What's This Episode About?
This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are weighing in on a recent conversation that Stephanie had with a fellow manager. This manager has a technician on their team who is excellent at their job, has high skills, and is overall well-liked by the team. However, it seems like they have a teeny, weensy little flaw in that they are one of the most pessimistic people that this manager has ever encountered. Most of the team shrugs it off as “This is just Kelly, being Kelly” and yet there are a few members of the team who really struggle with taking the pessimism personally. This manager feels stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of conflict managing this situation, knows that they do not want to lose good people on either side of this apparent battle, and was reaching out saying “Please help me!” Let’s get into this…
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Stephanie:
Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are tackling a topic that I was recently discussing with another practice manager, who is struggling with a team member who is very pessimistic. And this manager was looking for some advice and some support on how to conflict manage the situation. Because this pessimistic technician has most of the team just looking at it, rolling their eyes and saying, “This is just her being her,” and there are a few people on the team who don't feel the same way. And this manager is struggling with how to figure out, which way to address this from and the best way to approach it without making everybody upset. Let's get into this one.
Speaker 2:
And now the Uncharted Podcast.
Andy:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie, stuck between a rock and a hard place, Goss. That's a rolling stone song I think. I'm pretty sure. It's like new Rolling Stone, newish Rolling Stones.
Stephanie:
How's it going, Andy?
Andy:
Oh boy. It's bonkers. As we're recording this, it's the week before Christmas and it's crazy. The kids are out of school and just there's holiday things, which are great, not complaining, it's just a lot.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie:
Yes. Well, this is that time of the year too, towards the end of the year all of the stuff has to get it done. And I just like, there's personal stuff that has to get done and lots of work stuff that's happening, and trying to think about holidays and all of the things. It is definitely, definitely crazy.
Andy:
What's funny like is and it's a conflict too, right? Like there's all the personal things. Everyone has their stuff they're trying to get it done, but they need other people and those other people, they have their own things that they're trying to get done. And so when you ask other people for stuff it's a long slow process, but at the same time we all feel great stress to get things done.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
I think that's the weird paradox of the end of the year is at the time it's most wonderful to be present, it is also ridiculously hard because the world around you is swirling and everyone is trying to do their own being present thing.
Stephanie:
Yes. Yes. It's crazy.
Andy:
All right. Let's get into this episode because we got a good one here. I'm actually really excited.
Stephanie:
Me too. So there was a recent conversation that I was a part of and it was a manager who was asking for some help with conflict management within their team. And they are struggling because they have a team member who they said is incredibly pessimistic.
Andy:
Yes.
Stephanie:
They said, “They're potentially the most pessimistic person I've ever met and they are also an incredible technician. Maybe one of the most incredible technicians I've ever worked with.” And so they said 99% of the team just ignores the pessimism and just thinks of it as Kelly being Kelly, when they're having a moment. However, there are a couple of team members who are much gentler, more sensitive souls and they take Kelly's pessimism totally personally. And that when she goes on a rant or is just in a pessimistic state, they take it super personally.
Stephanie:
And so they are coming to the manager and are upset and frustrated because they feel like Kelly is directing negativity towards them as individuals rather than the situation itself. And so they are with being able to see past taking it personally. And so it is causing drama within the team because everybody's upset. This manager was like, “I've talked to everybody individually and I've tried to get them to work it out. But I feel like I'm not getting anywhere because Kelly is who she is. And her love of pessimism and her outlook is just who she is. And that it, I don't feel like I can change that.
Stephanie:
And I'm also really struggling to get the other team members who are more sensitive and gentle, that's part of their personality. And so I can't really ask them to change that either. And so I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place, and I just don't want to lose anybody because I'm not solving the problem.” Because everybody on the team looks to the manager to be the voice of reason and just solve the problem. And so this manager was just like, “I don't know what to do. How do I mediate this conflict because I don't even know where to start?”
Andy:
I like this question a lot. I like it a lot because the simple answer is that this manager has made a number of assumptions that have made her or him incapable of getting to a good solution.
Stephanie:
Sure.
Andy:
As I read this, I go, “That's an assumption, that's not true. Nope. That's not true either.” And there are so many things here that I would push back against and question and tinker with. And I was like, oh boy, I would say this manager has told herself a story that does not have an escape hatch, but I don't think that story is accurate. And so I'm really excited to pick this story apart and try to make this situation look entirely different. So I'm not there, I don't know these people. I can't say exactly what to do, but I can tell you an entirely different story that is much more hopeful than what is here.
Stephanie:
I am glad about that because I will admit this is one of those episodes where I will say, it's me. This was me. This was me, this was my clinic. I've had this person, I've been this manager and trying to see past… I think you hit it spot on, and I'm super excited to get into this, but trying to see past the absolute of the situation and feeling like I have one of two solutions. That was me in the moment I got very narrowed down into like, “This is the only way out.” And so I'm super excited to talk about it from a place of perspective now and to talk about it with you, because I think it's so easy in the moment to see through a very new narrowed lens because you're too close to it.
Andy:
I love these conversations in person because I'll be in an event, I'll be at a conference and someone will come, “Tell me this.” And they see two options and I love it because I can make their head explode. Just standing there, give me 90 seconds. And I will. And I can often, it depends on the individual, I can often just shock them because I know this trap, I've seen this. We've all seen this trap. When you get to the place where you think you have two options and neither of them are acceptable, you are probably mistaken.
Stephanie:
Sure.
Andy:
So you could be in a nightmare scenario, you're living in a Saw movie and there are horrible options and that's all there is. Probably not, probably not. So, okay, the first thing that you have to do in this case is stop thinking in absolutes. The writer is like, “Well, I got two options. I can put up with this forever until everyone-
Stephanie:
Quits.
Andy:
… quits. Or I can fire this really great person who has one bad habit immediately and lose them forever. And I just don't know what to do.” And I'm like that those are not your two options. Stop thinking in absolutes, it's not put up with this or fire this person. It's time to set realistic expectations. So let me just go ahead and start to lay down some realistic expectations about culture. I wrote an article about this it's going to be coming out in… I think it's going to be February, probably around February 1st, it's going to be in Today's Vet Business is my column. So it's already gone in to be edited, but I really like the piece and it's because I've seen so much of this.
Andy:
People think that that culture and having a good practice fit is a binary condition. You have it or you don't have it. And if you can build it then you built it and it's built, and now you've built it and now you have it and you're going to continue to have it, and that box has been checked. And now you get to just live and enjoy living with the goodness of the culture that you have built, that's not how this works. Doesn't work that way.
Andy:
That's a ridiculous expectation and people… And the thing is I get calls and you get calls, we get calls all the time, from people who are like, “I have failed. My team used to be happy and now it's not. And people aren't getting along and someone has quit their job and left. And the only reason can be because I have failed them in building a good workplace for them to be in. Just slap me across the face please because I deserve it.” And those are the types of self flagellating emails that I get. That's just lunacy. This is not how this works. Look, culture is a process, team fit is a process. It never ends if you are having a wonderful time and everyone is getting along hold that trophy, suck that joy up, suck it in through your pores because it's not going to last forever, something is going to happen.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
It's going to happen. The only constant is impermanence.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
That is it. That is the only constant. And you got a good thing now and that's great. And your chances of having a good thing and getting back to a good thing are higher, much higher when you're a good leader and you manage for culture and you prioritize for culture. But it doesn't matter how good a leader you are or how much you prioritize for culture, you are going to hit rough spots. And people are going to leave and they're not going to get along, and they're going to go through things in their personal life, and they're going to bring that stress into the workplace. And it's not about you, but you're going to deal with it and you're going to say, “Oh, I have failed.”
Andy:
You've got to put that aside and recognize culture is a process and it is cyclical. And we are all going to go through, hopefully, we're going to go through good periods and we're all going to go through bad periods. And if we're lucky, we're going to through a lot more good periods than bad periods. But the truth is guys, most of us are going to spend the majority of our practice life, somewhere in between a not good workplace and an amazing workplace. And we're on the treadmill and we're trying to get in cultural shape and that's the way we live our life.
Andy:
And so when this person says, “Fire this individual or I can not fire them and everyone continues to suffer forever, and those are the only two options.” I'm going, “No, the option's the treadmill in the middle.” The option is managing this and every now and then other people are less happy. And every now and then this person is going to go back to their old ways and you're going to have to deal with it and you're going to deal with it and it's going to be okay, but it's going to be a process. It's not going to be a problem that you probably fix and have it fixed.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
I think people feel like if it's not a problem that I can fix and have fixed and check the box on, then I must not be doing it right. And that's not true, some burdens can't be solve they have to be carried and that's culture a lot of the time. Is you go, “I can't fix people. I especially can't fix people who don't want to be fixed or who don't want to help themselves, so I have to carry the load.” And by carry the load, that doesn't mean suffer in silence. It means I have to, “God forbid, I have to manage these people.” And you're like, “Don't say that, no.” Yes. We have to manage these people.
Stephanie:
Well, so I have a question for you. So you are one of the most like a positive and hopeful outlook people that I know. And it's funny because I probably, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago in my career in VetMed shifted to the mindset that you're talking about. That I really got to a place where I was like I am exhausted by constantly looking at things from a place of absolutes and feeling like, “Yes, I finally got this amazing team and oh, someone quit.” And it would devastate me because it was like, I had worked so hard and I felt so good and then it all fell apart. And that I know you were partially joking when you were teasing about people's self flagellating, but that is a really real place, especially for someone who is a high achiever-
Andy:
Sure.
Stephanie:
… of feeling like this all fell apart and this is all my fault.So I through a lot of therapy, got to a place in my own personal management journey where I was like, “This is life.” And I got to that place that you're talking about, where I was like, “It's all cyclical.” And eventually someone is going to move, someone's going to have a baby, something's going to change within the team and we're going to have to start all over again. We're not starting from square one, we're starting from the middle and so we'll march back up. And I started having this conversation with friends and I got accused more than once of that being a very negative outlook, that something was always going to… like it's always going to fall at some point. And in our team we say the cup is already broken.
Andy:
The cup is already broken.
Stephanie:
But people were just like, “That's such a negative outlook.” And I really struggled with that because I was like, “I feel like this is the most positive, healthy outlook that I could possibly have.” Knowing that we're going to have ups and downs and it's going to be good, and it's going to be bad and it's going to be in between, and I can't control that. But I'm curious to hear your take on that because I can imagine that there's people listening to this who are just like, “Well, if you think about the fact that it's always going to break, isn't that a really negative outlook?”
Andy:
Yeah. No, the answer is no, yes and no. So here's the thing. So here's the weird positivity that I deeply believe in. You've heard me talk about life is suffering and life is struggling. And I believe that, honestly guys, I believe. So here's the short version. I believe that we are creatures formed in the fires of natural selection, I believe that that is our hard wiring. The stuff that drives us is the stuff that we have picked up evolutionarily from natural selection.
Stephanie:
Sure.
Andy:
Natural selection does not want us to be content.
Stephanie:
Sure.
Andy:
Contentment is dead species. Species that are content, they don't explore, they don't innovate, they don't seek out new environments, they don't take risks, they don't do anything that a species would need to grow and thrive, they sit.
Stephanie:
Sure.
Andy:
And evolutionarily speaking the temperature changes, the new predator arrives, that species is dead, they are extinct, they are wiped out, that is the history of the world again and again and again. And so we have been the most successful species on the planet. You know why? Because we are not wired to be content. We are wired to want. We are wired to struggle, it's called the hedonic treadmill. If you got the biggest raise that you could ever want, the one you are thinking about, the one you're like, “Andy doesn't mean this much money.” Yes I do. That's how much money I mean. You were like, “I would be happy.” And I would say to you, “No you won't. No you won't.” People who win the lottery, there's research on this. Lottery winners are generally happy for about three months.
Stephanie:
Yep.
Andy:
And then they're just the same person than they were before but now they have money. And they're like, “None of these other problems went away. My kids still won't talk to me. I still have headaches and my bunions and all the things that I have, and I don't look good in a swimsuit.” And all the things that they are you sure they don't come back and it's just like, “Well, money's one less thing.” So anyway, we're not wired to be happy, there's no point where we're like, “Yes, we made it.” Okay. So we are not wired to be happy, which means we are always going to be struggling. And so if you look around and you're like, “God, my life is hard and I'm tired.” That's normal. You're doing it right. That's unfortunately, that's what we signed up for, that is the experience.
Andy:
And so a couple of things come from that, number one, you better hold onto the good stuff and enjoy it and I really think that people don't do that. And that is one of the biggest things. So when I say, hold the trophy, like I said, five minutes ago, that's what I mean. And you should hold onto the trophy, so that's number one is hold onto the good stuff. Number two, realize that the greatest empowerment you can have is choosing how you struggle. It's like there's no perfect job. Every job is a job. As soon as it becomes a job, it's a job. You know that hobby that you love doing, the thing you're like, “This is great.” If people started paying you for it and you relied on it for your income, it would stop being a hobby, it would be a job.
Andy:
And there would be parts about it, you'd be like, “I hate this.” And this is just how it is. And so at least in that way you would choose, “This maybe a job, but it's still my job and it's still what I choose to do.” And so we choose how we struggle related to that. The cup is already broken. And what I mean when I say that and again, it's the same mentality. So the cup is already broken comes from a story of a Buddhist monk and he is sitting with his students and he's got this teacup. And so he's got this teacup in his hand and the students are asking him about impermanence. About how nothing in life stays, “Isn't that depressing? Isn't that sad?” Isn't that exactly what we're talking about here.
Stephanie:
Right.
Andy:
When you say, “I know that none of this is going to last. I know that people are going to leave. I know I'm going to be back on the struggle bus dealing with this again,” isn't that sad. And so they say that to the Buddhist monk, “Isn't that sad?” And he looks at them and he holds up his teacup and he says, “This is my teacup. This was given to me as a gift from one of my friends and it makes me happy when I see it. And I love the way the sunlight hits it and it sparkles on the design. And it's so beautiful and it holds my tea quite admirably, but I know that this cup will break. It will break. All things break, it will break.
Andy:
In my mind this cup is already broken. And so every day that I wake up and it is not broken is a gift to me. And when it does break, I will be okay because I knew long ago that it was already broken.” And so on our team when we say the cup is already broken, that's what I mean. Nothing is permanent. And so every day that we have it is a gift and every day that we don't have it, it's okay because we knew we weren't going to have it. And guys I believe that that is the definition of true practical, sustainable happiness and positivity. And so thank you for saying that I'm an optimist. I am an optimist. And thanks for saying that I'm positive. And that's how I stay positive is not in some panacea world where I think everything is great, it's going to be great. But I can look at the broken world around us and the cup is already broken and that makes me happy.
Andy:
And so the same thing is true here when we look at our team and we look at these people who are not getting along, the cup is already broken. And if we can get it to not be broken and then every day's a gift. And so that's why I see that and that's kind of how I have that kind of… That's kind of how I have positivity in these scenarios and also to be honest about what are we up against?
Stephanie:
So I have a question for you so I was not kidding when I said this, we're talking about one of my practices-
Andy:
Yeah. Sure.
Stephanie:
… and I've been there, been this manager. And on my team the conversation from Kelly herself was, “This is just who I am. I'm a bitch get over it.” That was the conversation. And I really struggled with that on a personal level, but also from a trying to manage this and manage the people perspective. Because when I looked outward in at the situation, it wasn't about Kelly and who she was, it was about what she was doing-
Andy:
Yes.
Stephanie:
… the things she was saying, how she was saying it, the behaviors. And I really struggled with it because the team members who were the ones who got offended were just like, “Okay. So, I guess, I just brush it off because that's who she is.” And I was like, “No, no.” Because we have team rules that we don't yell at each other. And we don't we don't throw each other under the bus or whatever the behaviors were that were being exhibited. And so I was like, “You don't just give up on this conversation because it's not about the person, it's about what they're doing.”
Andy:
Yep. Totally. Okay. So this is assumption number two, that has locked our manager into a trap, she's entrapped herself with assumption number two. And the assumption number two is and she says this, “This is who she is. This is who our pessimistic person is. And then the front desk, this is who they are, they are these soft people who get their feelings hurt and that's who they are. And I can't change who they are, so I'm defeated.” And I'm like, “If that's what you believe you are to defeated.” This is your conversation because you're right I can't help you, but that's not true.
Andy:
It's not true. This is not about who she is, this is about a behavior that she is exhibiting. And so the classic mistake here with manager is to confuse the behavior and the individual. And once you say that something is an individual, you are screwed, you're screwed because you can't change people. And there is no changing who someone is, and also it's hard to give people feedback and have them hear it. Because if you criticize who I am as a person, “Boy, I have got some evolutionary, tribal status defense systems here that are going to rise to the battle, and make me argue against you and reject what you're saying, because you're talking about who I am and my identity.”
Andy:
It's all trap don't even go there, that's a swamp that you should not lay into, it's not who she is. She if she is a good technician, as you say, then she is a compassionate kindhearted person who is very smart and competent, who is choosing to communicate pessimistic thoughts continuously to the staff. And that is the behavior of this person and do not let them say to you, “This is who I am.” I reject that. And I think we talk a lot about your job being a relationship, and that's just a metaphor that helps me a lot and I like to think about it. And so our job is a relationship, which means if you're my technician, we have a relationship.
Andy:
I'm not interested in being in a relationship when someone who comes in treats me like crap, makes me feel bad and then says, “Well, that's just who I am, you couldn't deal with it.” I can deal with it by deleting your phone number from my phone and not having you around.
Stephanie:
Walking away.
Andy:
And walking away and that is how to deal with it because I'm not going to deal with someone who can't take any feedback like that or who treats other people that way. This is a relationship and so I can say, “Hey, this is a behavior and this is how it makes me feel or these are the problems that it causes. And I like you and I see the goodness in you, I see the benefits in you, this behavior needs to change.” And by twisting it back to this behavior, she's not a pessimist. And if you say she's a pessimist, you are tying your own hands. She's not, she is a competent professional who communicates in a pessimistic way or communicates pessimistic negative thoughts to other team members. Who reacts negatively to new ideas.
Stephanie:
Right.
Andy:
Those are behaviors that can a hundred percent be put down or coached or changed. But you have got to reject assumption number two, which is this is who they are. No, can't change that. I'm here to tell you, it's not who they are, they are who they are, but this is a behavior and we are going to address the behavior. And so they certainly have the power to change their behavior.
Stephanie:
Well, and I think part of it, part of why it's such a swamp and a trap, I call these the big gopher traps. Like that is a big giant gopher trap, don't step in it. Because when you make it personal and look at it as that's just who they are, “This is Kelly's personality.” Then you're disciplining or having conversations that are disciplinary in nature on a personal level, which is unacceptable from an HR perspective, it feels punitive, it can feel retaliatory on both sides. And that's the point is on both sides, so you are labeling them as a person and they can absorb that information from a personal perspective, “She doesn't like me. She's against me. She's out to get me.” But I will tell you as the manager, it is also so easy it into your own head that you are labeling this person and that is your view of them.
Stephanie:
And that is a very quick and fast slippery slope, because I will tell you having walked through this, it was very easy for me to look at Kelly and be like, “God, she's a great technician, but oh my God, I just want to ring her neck.” And that's not healthy for me or for Kelly because the truth was I really liked Kelly. And I all of a sudden all of the other behaviors and all of the other things about my interactions with her were colored, because I was making it personal versus looking at it for to your point Andy as, if I just look at it and I step back and take that 30,000 mile view, I can look at it objectively and look at the behaviors and it doesn't feel personal.
Stephanie:
And so I think that that goes both ways and I think that's, for me, that's why number two, trap number two is so important because it can affect them and their perception of you and how you deal with the situation. But it also very much affects you and your outlook on that person and the situation as a whole.
Andy:
I agree with that. Assumption number three is this is a great technician. We got that piece of information and they're like, “Oh, she's super great.” And I'm like, “Wait a second let me get this right. You have a fantastic employee that you think might potentially drive away a number of other staff members who are also very good. I just want to make sure I'm processing this.” Like, “Oh, she's the best, except that she's toxic. She's fantastic. Like that's what I'm hearing from you, just want to make sure that I got this.”
Stephanie:
Yes. That's what you got.
Andy:
All right. Okay. So let's get in [crosstalk 00:27:55].
Stephanie:
Oh gosh.
Andy:
But that's what I hear and I go, “This does not make sense.” All right. So here we go. Let's talk about evaluating employees for a second. There's a number of different skills that I like to use that you have talked about a number of times. And the one that I'm going to reach for into my tool bag right here is the old fit skill tool. So what I would do is I would turn to this manager and say, “Let's talk about Kelly the pessimistic technician. You say she's great. On a scale of one to 10, I want you to rate for me how skilled is Kelly. And when I say skill I mean technical skill, blood draws, catheter placement, general radiograph however you gauge skill. Is she a 10? Which means she's the best I've ever seen. Or is she one where she's God awful, you would not let her touch your own pet.”
Andy:
Where is she? And I would get a number on fit and scale. Now, usually when people come to me with things like this, what they're saying to me is she has high levels of skill. She is highly skilled and they'll say, “She's a nine.” And I go, “Okay, cool. She's a nine. So she's really technically very good.” Okay. The other part of this, which is equally weighted, at least equally weighted is fit. Is she a good fit? Does she fit in with the team? Do they like to be around her? Does she make the workplace better? Does she communicate well? Does she fit in with who we are, with our values and with the people that she has to work with?
Andy:
And I want you to rate her on that on a scale of one to 10 and here's where the rubber meets the road. This is where I'm going to really make my decision about how we're going to go here. If you come back to me and you say, “Ooh, she's like a three, she causes fights all the time.” Then I would say, “Okay, cool. You have a high skill, low fit employee.” Alternatively, you might come back and go, “She's like an eight. Once you know her she's really great. She has this bad habit, but she's really great.” And I go, “Okay. These are very different positions.” The toxic technician just so you know is a high skill, low fit employee and that is how this works. So let me run through the quadrants real quick. Let's say that we have someone who's high fit and high skill.
Andy:
They're great technically at their job and everybody likes them. We retain this person. We invest in this person. We chain this person to… We don't let them go home at night because they might not come back. We carry them on our shoulders from their car to the buildings and their feet don't have to touch the ground, that's how we celebrate them. So that's high fit, high skill. Now you've got high skill, low fit, which is where we are right now, we'll come back to that. We've got high fit, poor skill. This is the person everybody likes, but they make a lot of mistakes.
Stephanie:
Yep.
Andy:
And the last is the low fit, low skill. They're not good at their job and nobody likes them. We don't tend to see a lot of those people because they have been liberated. They don't stick around because nobody likes them and they're not good at their job, those people are employed somewhere, which is sad. But if they were liberated, they would go find somewhere else where they had skills that better fit the job and they would fit in better. And so keeping them is probably not serving them any better than serving you. So anyway, that's a brief overview of the four quadrants. Now, toxic techs are high skill, low fit. Why is that? It's because if they weren't good at their technical work, they would be in the quadrant as low skill and low fit-
Stephanie:
You wouldn't keep them.
Andy:
… you would fire them. They only get to be toxic because they're really good at the technical part of the job, so we can put up with the awful communication relationship part and that's a mistake. It's possible that Kelly is toxic. It is possible that she is technically good and she is sucking the soul out of the team and dumping toxicity into the waters. It is possible. If that is true, she needs to be let go. And people are like, “Wait, wait, wait, we can talk to her. Yes. You can talk to her and we can try to coach her. And I'm happy to talk to you about how to try to coach her. Just go ahead and start the cup is already broken and go ahead and start making plans.” Because 80 plus percent of the time, you're not going to coach back a toxic person.
Andy:
Once they're toxic, they need to be liberated to get a fresh start somewhere else. And again, I'm speaking broad generalities, but it ain't my first rodeo, so just file that away. I suspect based on the fact that I hear that she is the best technician, and some of the other words that I'm hearing, I don't believe that this is necessarily a-
Stephanie:
Toxic.
Andy:
… good skill, low fit, toxic person. I think this is a good skill, good fit person who has a bad habit or has a behavioral pattern, that is career limiting for them. And that's how I would talk about it, “This is career limiting. You are not going to get opportunities. You are not going to move on and move up and get to do more things, when I have to keep cleaning up after the mess that you make.” And so, anyway I run through that exercise just because if you go, “Oh no, she's a three in fit.” She's probably toxic and I'm going to be looking a lot more towards liberating her to go find somewhere else. Everyone would probably be happier if she goes away, including her.
Andy:
If she's not, if she a high fit, high skill employee with a bad habit, now this is worth coaching. And we can 100% coach this person, if she wants to be coached. But often if they're a good fit, they do want to be coached. And so, anyway, those are two different scenarios. That's the third assumption is this is a great employee who's driving the staff away, and I can't change her because that's who she is. I'm like that doesn't stack up to me, something is wrong here in this assessment. Cool. And so I put all those things down. Stop thinking in absolutes, it's not keep this person and suffer the consequences of this behavior, keep going on and on and on or let this person go. The answer is often in the middle and we manage this person and they'll probably have… Hopefully, we can get them back on the straight and narrow and they'll probably fall off, and then we'll probably pick them back up and this will be something that we'll continue to work on and coach.
Andy:
Because a lot of times we have personality types and we have to work through them and change takes time. So have realistic expectations about the amount of improvement that we can expect. The second assumption is assuming that this is how the person is. It's like, nope, separate the behavior from the individual, coach the behavior, not the individual. And the last thing is really evaluate this person. What are you dealing with? And if their evaluation is negative, that may decide what we do. And ultimately, based on how we feel about those things, we are going to come to the big head space question for me. And that is what is kind, what is kind? Because I am not a hard ass. Sometimes I wish I was, I'm not, I'm a softie. I'm a softie, I get my feelings hurt [crosstalk 00:35:08].
Stephanie:
It's a true story.
Andy:
I'm not. And so I'm not, but I am a 100% unwilling to let my business suffer and I will absolutely make the hard call. And here's how I make the hard call and here's how I feel good about it. I ask myself what is kind, what is kind to me, what is kind to my family, what is kind to my staff, what is kind to the other doctors, what is kind to the people who have to work with this person, what is kind to the person who's causing the problem. And if the kindest thing for the person who is not happy here and is pessimistic and just thinks everything is awful, and the people who are feeling bummed out and criticized by her, and me and my clients is for this person to leave then I should do the kindest thing, which is liberate this person. Honestly, that is the mental trick I play on myself, some self kung-fu that I do.
Andy:
And ultimately I go, “Yeah, that is the kindest thing. And so I'm a softie I'm going to go do the kind thing. But I have to believe in what the kind thing is and then I can do it, but I have to believe what it is. The other alternative is that the kindest thing possible is to have a candid conversation with this person, this technician and say, “This is what I'm seeing and this is what I'm feeling. And this is these behaviors are being received and we need to make changes to go forward. And you need to know that this is not sustainable and I really like you and I really want you to be here.” It's not kind for me to not tell you if we have come to that point. I always say people should not be surprised when they get let go and if they are surprised then someone did not communicate to them, how their behaviors were being perceived and again that's broad generalities, but you get the point. It's not kind for me to not say anything to this person as relationships burn around her.
Stephanie:
Well, and I think the reason that so many managers, myself included because I've been here, sit in this place of indecision and don't do anything is because we're looking at it from a personal perspective. And so most of the time it's feeling like you don't have the tools and you're not equipped to do the kind thing and have that conversation, because there's some part of our brains that is still looking at it as, “Kelly is being a pain in my butt and this about her as a person. And I don't know how to tell her that I'm going to let her go because her pessimistic attitude is the problem.” It is still personal and so we do nothing because we know we shouldn't just fire people because we have a personal problem with them.
Stephanie:
And we don't feel like we have the tools to be able to address it from an appropriate place. And so I think this is a good place to take a quick break and then talk about how do we actually have that conversation, because that is definitely a learned skill to be able to address behavioral challenges like this.
Andy:
Let's do it.
Stephanie:
Hey, everybody it's Stephanie, I just have to break in here for one second and make sure that you know about an awesome opportunity that is coming up, that we do not want you to miss. We are back. We are back in person in April in Greenville. That's right, our flagship conference in Greenville, South Carolina is happening in person for the first time in three years and we are so, so excited to be back with you guys. It is happening April 21st to the 23rd. So put that on your calendar now and if you head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/april, you can find all of the details as we sort them out.
Stephanie:
You will get to see the schedule as soon as we have it, you will get to see information on the speakers. We've got an event FAQ. You can shop our Uncharted gear. We've got safety information, if you're wondering about being back in person. So if this sounds like something you would be interested in, head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/april and reserve your spot. This event will sell out. We cannot wait to see you. So don't wait to put this on your calendar. You do have to be an Uncharted member to attend. You can find out all the details at the website. We'll see you soon, now back to the podcast.
Stephanie:
Okay. So part of the challenge goes back to what we talked in the beginning, which is that you have to get out of the personal head space because you can't discipline Kelly for being a pessimist.
Andy:
Right.
Stephanie:
From an HR perspective that's the wrong thing to do, right?
Andy:
Yep. Totally. “Hey, I'm going to punish you for being who you are.” That's not who she is, that's not who she is.
Stephanie:
That's the point.
Andy:
That's the point. Yes.
Stephanie:
So the question is if we're asking ourselves what is kind, then we have to flip back to what you mentioned in the very beginning, which is that this has to be about the behavior-
Andy:
Yes.
Stephanie:
… that she is exhibiting because the action steps we have to take here are all about having conversation, documenting those conversations, doing some coaching and to your point, it's going to be ongoing. This is a behavior that has been exhibited more than once. If you have somebody who makes a mistake the first time, it's really easy to have a conversation with them and say, “Hey, I noticed this thing didn't go so well, let's talk about this.” And that conversation is not the problem. The problem is for so many of us as managers, the behavior has repeated itself two, thee, 200 times.
Stephanie:
And now we're like crap. Now we have to have the conversation. We don't know where to start because we haven't had any of the conversations along the way, or the conversations have been too few and far between. And so again, to your point that you made at the very beginning of the episode, we're very much locked into this head space of it has to be all or nothing. And now they've exhibited this behavior 200 times and so now I have to discipline them for this. No, that's not the first conversation. If you've not had any of those conversations, or if they've been too few and far between, then you start fresh and you got to start over and you got to say, “Hey, this is something I noticed and we have to talk about this.”
Andy:
Yep. I agree. A 100%. So here's how not knowing a lot of the specifics. Here's how this generally sets up when it goes well. So the first thing is the cup is already broken, we're not aiming for perfection, we're aiming for improvement and continued improvement.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
Rome wasn't built in a day, but we've gotten to this point, we can get back out of it, so that's it. Second thing is to your point and you're spot on, you're starting at the beginning. If you have not managed this condition, this behavior up to this point and it's not bad, just take a deep breath, shake it out and start from the beginning. Like, “Okay. We're starting the process. Here we go.” So get in that head space.
Andy:
I'm going to bring this person in and when I do, I want to speak in specifics. Now I'm starting fresh, which means I'm not going to go back and say, “I need to talk to you about 137 things, they start back in May 2016. Jenna said, ‘I think we're going to get a new printer.' And you said, ‘This place is never getting a new printer, these guys don't do anything they say.' That's what I want to start with 2017 May remember that, that was not okay and you shouldn't have said that.” No, no, let it all go. Let it all go. Start fresh. But that said, we need to speak about the behavior and we need to speak in specifics. I cannot bring them in and I come in and say, “Kelly, you are a pessimist.” And you know what Kelly's going to say?
Stephanie:
“No, I'm not.”
Andy:
“No, I'm not. You're always saying negative things about me.” That's what Kelly's going to say. It doesn't fly. So you got to speak in specifics.
Stephanie:
Not going to end well.
Andy:
It's not going to end well. In that small snippet, you just saw this conversation is on fire going down, it's not going anywhere productive. All right. So what do you do? You got to give her some slack and let her make her own mistakes again and then we need to talk in specifics. And so the way that I often set this up, remember when we start to have these conversations come from a place of compassion. I like Kelly. The manager likes Kelly. She says she's great. And most of us are used to us. We like her. That's great. That's good. It's a whole heck of a lot easier to work with someone who likes you and who you like.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
And so we're using relationships, coaching happens inside of relationships and relationships are built on trust. And so if I like this person, trust this person, I'm going to have a much better experience trying to coach them. And again, this is not about managing Kelly in a military style or making her miserable or making her feel like she's not wanted or liked. It's about the fact that I care about her and I'm seeing these problems, and they're going to be career limiting for her and they're causing problems for people around her. And so we're going to have that, have that conversation. So speak on specifics, “Hey, yesterday, I heard this thing happened.” Or, “I was there yesterday. And I heard when you said this to Shauna. Why did you say that? What happened?” And that's honestly how I like to start this conversation is I don't want to call her in and lecture.
Andy:
I'm going to call her in and say, “I heard this. What happened? Why did you say that?” And people say, “Well, you know she said it, just write her up.” Seek first to understand, “What is going on here?” Because here's the thing, I need Kelly to figure out why she said what she said. And if Kelly figures out why she said what she said, then she can choose to not say it again next time. But if she doesn't know why she said what she said, she's going to have a hard time not repeating that behavior because she didn't know where it comes from. And so I'm going to try to help her find that, but also I want to understand what's going on with her? Is there something I can support her in? Is there something else going on behind the scenes?
Andy:
I want to have a productive conversation. It's not a gotcha conversation. It's not one where I'm like, “Aha, I have figured you out and now you are pinned down and you can't make any more mistakes.” I said, “No, she's a human being and I like her and I want to support her.” So ask first of all, “What happened?” And then I'm going to listen and then I'm going to talk in consequences. I'm going to say, “Hey, when you say things like this, this is what the outcome is. This is what other people take away from that. This is what I have to deal with because people come in here crying.” And again, if she doesn't understand the consequences of her behavior she's not going to change them. And so, “Again, I'm not trying to be nasty, but he needs to understand when you do this, this is the outcome, this is what it causes.” And then I want to talk about what the consequences are for her. And when I do that, I'm not talking about punishments, “And that's why you're getting written up.”
Stephanie:
Right.
Andy:
I'm talking about where she's go and what the long term consequences are. One of the keys in coaching and the difference in coaching, the coaching difference from feedback is intense, these are future facing conversations, “When we have conversations like this, it affects how the team works with you. And I'm worried in the future you're not going to get opportunities or you're not going to be able to get to do the things that you want, or there's going to be doors that would open that you're not going to be able to go through. Hey, I would like to see you in more of a leadership role in the coming years, but that's not going to be a door that's going to be open, if we continue to have this exact behaviors, if people tend to feel this way about you and I want to be you and I want you to be successful here.”
Andy:
You hear me leaning into coming in this from a point of compassion and trying to help this person and so talk in the future tense, “This is how you can develop. This is where you can go. This is my concern for you going forward.” I'm not talking about the past and the 137 times she's done this before.
Stephanie:
Right.
Andy:
I'm talking about what happened here recently and what it means going forward. And then what I'm going to do after we've talked about this is we're going to talk about what she can do next time, because she can't change last time. It'd be nice if she apologized, but she didn't have to. The big thing for me is don't do it again and I can only change the future. And so I'm going to talk to her and say, “What are we going to do differently next time? Can you promise me that you'll do that differently next time?”
Andy:
And hopefully she's going to agree and say yes or she's going to say, “This is what I'm going to do.” I'm not going to tell her what to do differently, I need her to decide what she's going to do differently. I need her to own this behavior. And say, “Hey, what can you do differently when you have these communications.” And let her propose the solution, so it'll be her solution. And then the last part is I'm going to have to start holding her accountable, which means when she goes out and the next day, the same thing happens again, I'm going to have to say something to her.
Andy:
And I'm going to have to say, “Hey, we just talked about this yesterday and I heard that this is what went down. What happened?” I'm going to repeat the process. But ultimately what happens is not, “Hey, you're pessimistic and we're going to have to let you go.” Or, “You're pessimistic and you're getting written up.” What's going to have to happen is, “We have had many the meetings about this behavior and you say you're going to make changes to it and you're not making changes to it. And now I'm concerned about your truthfulness, about your willingness to change. The fact that you keep saying you're going to do these things and then you don't do them. And that's why we get written up. And those are the reasons that we're not going to be able to stay on, because you can't continue to say you're going to do things and then not do them.”
Andy:
And it's a different conversation, but that difference is important. And hopefully we don't get to that, but it does set us up for a better coaching position. The last thing I'm going to say, I think a lot of people get this wrong. It's really hard to police culture. Meaning it's hard to jump on this person, Kelly, every time she makes a mistake and pull her into the office. And guys that's not how any of us really want to be trained. We want to be trained with positive reinforcement. And so just as much as you look for Kelly to be pessimistic, look for Kelly to be optimistic and positive and just like training a new puppy, as soon as they do the behavior you want, jump in with praise and celebration and treats and rewards.
Andy:
Anyone who's heard me talk about feedback knows that I say this, people are simple animals. I don't care how many degrees you are, I'm not saying this because this is a technician. I would do it to the doctors, this is how you train doctors, is you set the expectation, you look for the positive behavior and you reward the heck out of it.
Stephanie:
Yeah, no, I think that that is so true. And I think one of the things about rewarding that's really important, is it doesn't have to be in front of everybody. It doesn't have to be a giant over the top thing, but it's those small little things, “Hey, I noticed when it was really crazy today that you really kept you're cool and you didn't make any negative comments. And I just want you to know that I really appreciate that.”
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie:
Like it doesn't have to be a big thing, but that little bit of reward because change is hard. And when you hear, “Yes, you're doing this well,” that is so important and it makes such a difference. And I think it's really easy as a manager when you are having to have hard conversations with somebody and you're looking at something from a disciplinary perspective, it's so easy to get sucked into the cycle of only looking for the negative.
Stephanie:
And so part of this goes back onto the manager, that it is your job to look at it not in, “When is the next time am I going to catch Kelly in one of these behaviors, so I have to write her up again. But how much work is Kelly putting into this? When can I celebrate her successes?” And you might have to look really hard for some of them in the beginning. But the return on investment when you look at it from the perspective of positive reinforcement, versus the negative, “Now, I have to discipline you,” is so huge on both sides.
Andy:
Yeah. I agree. I think that's just, I don't know, that's just training in positive reinforcement. And I guess here's the other thing think of about how you would feel, when was the last time that your boss came up or someone in your clinic came up and said, “Hey, I saw that you did this specific thing and it was great. And I just really want to thank you for doing that, it was really well done.” It's probably embarrassingly rare that it happens, it's hard to do as a manager, you have to prioritize it.
Stephanie:
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this was a good one.
Andy:
I think so. Like I said, I like these a lot. I hope for our manager friend, I hope it gave some perspective. It doesn't sound like this is a straightforward black or white fire this person or deal with this bad behavior forever. There's definitely a middle path and we're going to try that first. And if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out, but at least we've tried a coaching solution. And if this person really is the great tech that you say that she is, you may have some real success with coaching her. People have to want it, they have to want to get better. But honestly, most of us want to learn and we want to improve and we want to be more popular with the people we work with and we want to be better at our job. We want to feel like we're developing and we're going to get more opportunities. Those aren't rare traits, most people have those so just lean into them.
Stephanie:
I love it. This is a good one. Have a great week everybody.
Andy:
Yeah everybody, take care of yourselves.
Stephanie:
Well, gang that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast, and as always this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website, the address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag. Or you can email us at podcasts@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
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