This week on the podcast…
This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice management geek Stephanie Goss are in the mailbag to tackle a question about what to do when you think people might be talking about you behind your back at work. In fact you are pretty darn sure it is happening because your bosses are alluding to people being unhappy with you but you aren't actually getting concrete examples or feedback to work with. Plus at least one team member was recently EXTRA salty with you on a shift, seemingly out of nowhere. This tech is feeling Undefined and Rudderless and asking for help. Let's get into this…
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I got a letter in the mailbag that tugged at my heartstrings. We got a letter from a technician who called themselves Undefined and Rudderless, and he is really struggling as a male in a female-dominated industry now because he is having some challenges where he feels like his team is talking behind his back at work and he is really struggling. He has asked for feedback. He has talked to his bosses who actually have commented on the issue, but have provided no concrete feedback that has helped him change his behavior and he is really struggling. This one was one that Andy and I really enjoyed getting into the weeds on. So let's dive into it, shall we?
Speaker 2:
And now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark :
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only Stephanie, give it to me straight, Goss.
Stephanie Goss:
That is very appropriate for today's episode.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yes. Don't send no mixed messages. Give it to me straight. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Give it to me straight. I will give it to you straight.
Dr. Andy Roark :
I know.
Stephanie Goss:
That is my M.O. I shoot straight from the hip.
Dr. Andy Roark :
There you go. There you go. How are things?
Stephanie Goss:
Things are trucking.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Things are trucking.
Stephanie Goss:
Trucking along.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yeah. Holy moly, we're busier than a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs, as they say where I'm from. Oh, Appalachian Mountain sayings.
Stephanie Goss:
I was going to say got to love the Appalachian sayings. None of them make any sense.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Oh, well. Oh, man.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man. No, things are good. We are slammed. We are busy. We are recording this and it is the end of March. So we are just couple weeks away from the April Uncharted Conference, which is going to be amazing. I'm super excited about that and getting to see everybody. We just had Practice Manager Summit last week, so still riding the high from that was amazing.
Dr. Andy Roark :
That was amazing. That was a one-day virtual event. It was freaking amazing.
Stephanie Goss:
It was.
Dr. Andy Roark :
It went so well. And it's like our virtual events are not webinars. They are interactive workshops, and discussion groups. And especially, I really like this one-day format because people did a great job of putting the clinic aside for one day and just being all in on it. And man, it was great. I mean, it was really good.
Stephanie Goss:
It was.
Dr. Andy Roark :
We had a good number of people. I'll tell you my favorite part of that was we have some French listeners for this podcast.
Stephanie Goss:
We do?
Dr. Andy Roark :
And I see it on the statistics. I'm like, “There's a couple people in France listening.” We met them. It's a pair of sisters.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark :
It's Martine and Maryanne. Yes. And Martine was there. It was in the middle of the night and she was like, “I am here for this.”
Stephanie Goss:
It was 2:00 AM. I know.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Here I am.
Stephanie Goss:
It was absolutely amazing to me. And Maryanne has actually written into the mailbag, we have done several podcast episodes with questions that she has asked. And when you guys told me, I got a message during the conference and you are all like, “Have you seen Martine? She's here and she's from France.” And I was like, “Oh, I wonder if,” and I was just like, “It's her sister.”
Dr. Andy Roark :
Oh, man.
Stephanie Goss:
That made my day because it just, it's so surreal.
Dr. Andy Roark :
It was amazing. Yeah, it was amazing. And she was right in there. I was like, “Buddy, if you think the things you're struggling with in your practice only apply to you, you are so out of your mind.” These things are so universal and everybody is fighting different battles that seem quite familiar and similar in a lot of ways. And man, just getting really good managers together in that session for those days, for that one day, God, that was great.
Stephanie Goss:
It was. It was awesome.
Dr. Andy Roark :
I was so happy when it was over. I was so energized.
Stephanie Goss:
And it's funny to me because to your point, we all think that we're the only ones having the problems, right? And that's the number one thing that I think you and I both get told about the podcast is, “Oh my gosh. You guys were talking about exactly my issue.” And I think that's the thing is that we're not alone and we just did Manager Summit and Martine was there and it was 2:00 AM in France. And then last night we had a workshop with our teammate Tyler Grogan talking about creating fans in our practice. And we have a handful of members that are from Australia and one of them, Terry was there last night and it was today, it was a day ahead. And she's there and she's rocking. And you were talking about practice differences from country to country, place to place, it doesn't matter. We have similarity. We're all facing different facets of the same challenges. And so man, it's a good time right now. I'm jazzed about all we're doing and all we're talking about, whether it's in the community or at events. It's a fun time.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Well, especially if you're into management, the benefit of having people who have wildly different practice styles and cultures is huge. I was speaking in the Netherlands a while back. And so their economy is a little bit different. They have high taxes and they do a lot for their people. They have high taxes. And so employing people is very expensive. So most vet clinics are very small, like a doctor and two technicians and that's it. And they answer the phones and they do all the things, and it's just a wildly different model in a lot of ways. But man, when you ask them, how do you guys do this? The ideas that they have and the way they set their businesses up, you just go, “Oh, man. Boy, we can learn some things about efficiency from them.” And then they look around and go, “Wow. You guys, you do things wildly different because of how you're set up.” If you like new ideas, boy, doing some international work like we do with Uncharted every now and then, that stuff is so good. It always just cracks open my creative part of my brain.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Well, we have got a great mailbag question.
Dr. Andy Roark :
I like this question.
Stephanie Goss:
And I'm excited to see where we're going to go with this because you and I were just talking getting ready for the episode and I was like, “I think we have multiple different problems in this question.” And you're like, “Nope. We've got one hour.”
Dr. Andy Roark :
I don't know. But we'll see.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it.
Dr. Andy Roark :
There's one question that needs to be answered and fix this problem. I don't know if it can be answered. I don't know if we can fix it, but I think that there's one.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. So we got a mailbag question and it's from Undefined and Rudderless. And they wrote in and said, “How do you address the problem if it's not defined, if you don't know what it is?” So they've been dealing with people talking behind their back at work because the bosses keep eluding with comments and/or talking about problems during reviews or one-on-ones. And they were like, “Well, but of course I ask, ‘What am I doing wrong?'”
Dr. Andy Roark :
What is the problem?
Stephanie Goss:
“What is the problem? How can I change my behavior? What can I do to avoid these situations?” And repeatedly they are getting told, “Don't worry about it. You're doing a great job. Just keep working on being a team player,” alluding to the fact that it's not you, it's someone else, right? We've all had that conversation, “It's not you, it's me.” I got the sense that that's what they were being told. But then they said, “I was at work today and one of my teammates came up to me and literally started shouting at me about how I was lying about work that they were doing. And that they didn't want to work with me anymore and that they were sick of working with me. And this happens to be a letter from a male in our industry.” And they were saying, “As a man in a woman-dominated industry, I am often very careful about what I say. And when I get stressed during busy days, I tend to withdraw into myself and focus on my work.”
And so they were like, “I want to fix this. I want to be a good team player. I want to work well with my colleagues, but how do I address the problem if I don't actually know what it is? And how do I address my bosses continually telling me not to worry about it, turn up and do my job? But then have days like this where my colleagues are clearly angry at me not wanting to work with me. Clearly there's a problem and I want to do something about it.”
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yeah. I felt this. Just reading through, I imagine the frustration of being like, “I'm sorry. What did I do?” And they're like, “I think you know.” That really is, “I don't know,” “I think you do, the issue.”
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man.
Dr. Andy Roark :
It's just the issue. What is the issue? It's the thing you need to work on.
Stephanie Goss:
I would be seeing red. I would be so angry.
Dr. Andy Roark :
I would like, “Are you pranking me?”
Stephanie Goss:
Am I on Punked?
Dr. Andy Roark :
I'm like, “This is it.” So that's why I said, “I think there's one problem here.” I'll come around to it at the end. But here's what I think the problem is and I hope that my old man brain will hold on so I can remember what it is at the end. I forget what I was going to say. It's a real… Should make a note for myself. All right. But let's start with that case. So I want to approach this from the perspective of the person who wrote the letter, right? Because they asked, “What do I do?”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark :
And so I can look at this from a lot of different ways, and my gut is always to look at it from a leadership, mentorship, manager position looking down. That's not what we're dealing with here.
Stephanie Goss:
No. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark :
And so I really want to help out Undefined and Rudderless from where he is in this situation. Okay?
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark :
So the first thing is I would say, you have to try to be positive in this situation, right? And you have to try to be positive. This is not fair. What I'm about to say it's not fair and I want to own that it's not fair. It's not fair. It's not fair that other people seem to have a problem with you and they won't tell you what it is, but if you get mad, you are going to look like the bad guy.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark :
And that's not flipping fair, but fair is where pigs win ribbons.
Stephanie Goss:
That one actually makes sense.
Dr. Andy Roark :
The first one made sense too. Have you ever seen a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs? She doesn't sit still.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. I digress.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Fair is where pigs win ribbons, right? If you get mad, there's a decent chance this is going to get tagged onto you as the bad guy. And that's not fair. It's like when you're an older sibling and your younger sibling keeps messing with you, and you know if you get mad, you are going to get in trouble. And your sibling knows if you get mad, you're going to get in trouble. It's that thing. And you go, “I thought I grew out of this at age 12,” but you didn't because people are children their whole lives.
Stephanie Goss:
As an older child, I am feeling the pain right this second because I know that pain.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Well, that's why I said I felt this so much is like, I'm like, “Oh man, that's such a sucky position to be in,” where you're like, “I feel like I'm getting treated unfairly,” and it sounds like you are. And if you mishandled this, there's a chance you're going to end up looking bad. They can hang this on you as the bad guy, and that sucks. But know that up front, we're going to take some deep breaths and that's why we got to get our heads straight here. We've got to get into know that, but don't let that burn resentment into you. Just know we need to be careful in how we handle this. So careful in how we handle this is the first thing. The second thing is I'm going to say you have options. Never forget that you have options, right?
And so we're going to fix this or I'm going to recommend that you consider going somewhere else. That's where we're going to go, that's the ultimate solution here. So it's not fair, but we're going to fix it. And if we can't fix it, I'm going to recommend that you go somewhere else. And I think you're going to find a lot of opportunities because men are diversity in this industry, which is ridiculous, but true. There's a lot of vet practices that would love to have some dude energy in their practice. And so you will have opportunities if you want to go somewhere else.
Stephanie Goss:
Fair, fair.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Okay. All right. So that's that. Okay. So the first thing, start in good faith.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Start in good faith and come from a point of curiosity. I actually really like the way that this was written of like, “I don't know what I'm doing and I ask about it, and I'm not being told what the answer is.” I think at one point, I think the big thing is, look, at this point out, take some deep breaths. We're going to take a step back. We're going to hit the reset button. We're going to go at this with a blank slate. And so let's get our head straight. So we're going to go over the blank slate. We're going to go back into this and from a genuine point of curiosity and to ask questions, and to ask for help and understanding.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes. Okay. So a lot of times when we talk on the podcast, we talk about safe and we talk about having a safe conversation. And certainly if people are shouting, that's not the time to have the conversation. But there's two pieces of safe that are I think are really important here. One is the assuming good intent. And so getting your point about getting curious with your bosses and just asking questions is a great one. And before that, I would start with the pre-work and ask yourself, “What else could this possibly mean?” And the reason that I say that, and when we talk about safe, we usually talk about, how have you been set up to fail? And one of the reasons why you should ask yourself, “What else could this mean?” Is that as a manager from an HR perspective, when there are multiple people involved, I can't always tell you what you want to hear, right?
And so I could totally hallucinate a situation, especially with some of the additional information we were given with the other person literally shouting and yelling at you. I could totally hallucinate a situation where maybe you have a coworker that is not behaving the way that they should. And as a manager, I am dealing with that situation from an HR perspective, I can't necessarily disclose that to you, I can't necessarily talk to you about specifics. And so I think assuming good intent and then asking yourself, “What else could this mean?” helps set you up for a good head space to go into a conversation with your bosses where you can get curious and ask questions.
Dr. Andy Roark :
I agree with that. I think this conversation, I think there's two conversations here that could potentially happen, which is why I think you said that there were two problems when we started. I would say I think there's two problems or two conversations that you could have. And so the first one is up at management, which means if you say, “I feel like there's people who are unhappy with me. I'm not sure what to do. I'm not receiving feedback. I don't know what behaviors to change or how to address this.” That's the conversation to have up the chain. And it sounds like this person has gone that way. I'm going to say when we do fresh slate, I'm going to go have this conversation again. And I really want to push you to push harder in this conversation, because you've tried it and it didn't go anywhere.
And so the conversation I would have up the chain is you go in, I'm going to go in with a spirit of curiosity, but I'm also going to remember that clear is kind and I want to be kind to the management because I'm getting tired of this. I'm tired enough about this that I'm writing to Andy and Stephanie, and calling myself Undefined and Rudderless, right? That means something. You know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Okay. This is not like, “I had a rough afternoon.” This is like, “No. This is weighing on you, my friend.” And so I'm going to go have that conversation. I'm going to say, “Hey, I continue to feel like people are unhappy with me. I had someone come up and shout at me and I don't understand why. I genuinely don't know what I'm doing here and I really need feedback because this is affecting me.” And if they say, “No, just do better and be more of a team player,” I would then push back and say, “I need specific action steps and I need areas to focus on and develop. And so I need feedback on exactly what that means so that I can make changes or address problems. And I don't know what it means to be a good team player or to do better.”
Stephanie Goss:
And I would also tell them how it's impacting you, because nobody wants to go to work and feel like people are talking about them behind their back. And so if you say exactly what you just said, Andy, which is like, “I need to know what that looks like. I need to know what that sounds like. Give me the feedback,” and then it's crickets. Or they tell you, “You're doing fine. Just be a team player,” then that's where you need to say, “I can't actually accept that as an answer because this is affecting me. I don't want to come to work in a place where I feel like people are talking about me behind my back, where I feel like I'm making people angry or I'm upsetting people. This is not working for me. And so I need you to help me, or I am going to have to make changes,” that could involve leaving your job. And it's not a threat, right? “This is how it's impacting me and I need you to understand how serious this is to me because that's not fair.” It's not fair.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yeah. When I have this conversation, I'm exactly with you. That is step three is to say, “This is the impact it's having on me.” I completely agree. When I have those conversations, I never want to threaten, I never want to be like, “You're going to tell me or I'm going to quit.” Oh, don't do that. That's nasty. And people don't like ultimatums.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark :
And it just escalates the whole thing. It's not worth it. The language, however that I specifically honestly use, but I'll say, “This is how I'm feeling and this arrangement is not working for me. And it's making me uncomfortable to a level that is not sustainable.” And that's where I stop because I'm not saying I'm going to leave and I'm not bluffing. This is not a negotiation tactic. This is clear as kind. But I see a lot of people who don't say that. They don't say, “This is not working for me, and the experience that I'm having at work it's not pleasant and it's not sustainable for me. So I'm going to need a resolution here and I'm happy to do what I need to do on my side to make that happen, but I need guidance in what that is so that we can resolve this. And I can get back to being comfortable here.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Because I think otherwise you run the risk that they don't understand how much you're bothered by it. They don't understand how much it's impacting you. They don't understand how much it means to you. And there have been conversations in my life when I think about it where I had no idea that the other person felt the way that they did until they said something that made me realize the gravity of the situation, right? And this is the moment where you have to figure out how do you do it in your language, in your comfort level to say what you're saying, Andy, which is, “This is affecting me and I can't keep doing this.”
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yeah. You don't have to be wildly dramatic too.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark :
And I don't know how much to play gender into this as being a man and having these feelings of not fitting in and being bothered by that. And because I don't know this person. And when you say, a lot of times people don't know how other people are feeling. At one point this person mentions in their email, “I tend to get stressed on busy days and I withdraw to focus on my work.” If you're kind of the quiet guy who's just doing his stuff, people make assumptions about how much or how little you're affected by what's going on. And again, this doesn't mean you have to be an emotional presentation if that's not who you are. You can be calm and reserved and also articulate about, you can say, “This is how I feel and this is the impact this is having on me. And this is where I am as far as my feelings coming into work in the morning.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think you were spot on where I think that there's two separate conversations, right?
Dr. Andy Roark :
Sure.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think from an action-step perspective with this first conversation is you have to have the conversations with your boss. Because they are the only ones who can do something about it, right? This is your relationship with them. And if you are not getting what you need and your needs are not being met inside of a relationship, the only other person who can solve that with you is the other person or the other people. And so you have to have the conversation with your bosses and use the language that is going to matter and tell them how it's impacting you, how it's affecting you, and ask them for their help in resolving the situation. Because there's something going on here, whether it's that they are just avoiding conflict, whether there's an HR issue and they can't actually talk to you about it. Maybe they just don't know how to manage really well. There's a bunch of different reasons why it could be going the way that it is. We don't have enough information and can't hallucinate why that would be happening, but they're the only ones who can help you solve that problem.
Dr. Andy Roark :
I agree. The last point in this conversation up the chain that I would really emphasize is, remember speak in specifics, especially since this person came up and yelled at you. I would go in specifically reference like, “Hey, on Tuesday of last week this person came in the treatment room and yelled at me, and this is what she said. And I do not understand. I didn't know what that was a reference to, but I'm literally being yelled at.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark :
And put that forward because that's not okay. It's not okay for someone to come in and yell at another employee in the building. That's not professional. That's not how a place with a good culture would people treat each other. And so we need to talk about that. And again, I'm not going to necessarily tattle and like, “Oh, you need to fix this.” I am going to say, “This is what happened. This is a case in point. I am not making things up about people seeming uncomfortable or talking behind my back. This altercation happened.”
Stephanie Goss:
And it is their job to provide a safe workplace. And no one should be working in a workplace where people are literally shouting at each other, or screaming at each other, or there's physical altercations, that is a hard stop. It is their job as an owner, as a manager to provide a safe work environment and that includes a psychologically safe work environment. And so that is your opportunity to very clearly give them the specifics and then ask them for help in resolving the situation. Knowing you're going to do your part, you want to get better, you want to work on things, and you're asking them openly for that feedback. But if someone comes up and just starts shouting at you, if that's what happened, you didn't do anything wrong in that situation. So there isn't anything for you to work on in that instance that is about them doing their jobs as leaders.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Sure. Well, I agree. And to put an even tighter pinch on the leaders. Let's say that he did do something wrong. Let's say that he's doing something that's really hacking people off. He's microwaving salmon for lunch or he has shoes that squeak really loudly all the time. Yelling at him is not how we handle this problem, right? The person who is frustrated has two options. They can go and talk to Rudderless and say, “Hey buddy, we need to have a talk about the break room in lunchtime.” Or they can go and if they don't feel comfortable talking to him, then they can go to management and say, “Hey, this is a problem,” and then management needs to talk to our writer, Rudderless. At no point is rolling up and shouting at another worker. That's not step three, that's not on the list of steps.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark :
So anyway, that's it. That's again, if this person who's frustrated feels like they have a legitimate concern, and one of the things I really liked about this letter was the writer seemed very open to the idea that he might be doing something that's frustrating people, he just doesn't know what it is.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark :
That made me like him a lot. I've said it a bunch of times. The number one most underrated leadership, communication, teamwork skill that exists is self-awareness. The most underrated. Because if you're dealing with somebody who does not have self-awareness, they are never going to get better. You know why? Because they don't know that they need to, or they don't have an accurate view of how they could get better. When somebody says, “Hey, I might be messing this up, I would like to know how so that I can fix it.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right. So I can work on it.
Dr. Andy Roark :
I generally immediately like that person and go, “You, my friend, seem to have the potential.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark :
And again, that's an initial reaction. So putting the squeeze on the leadership, our writer is not getting clear feedback, which should not be the case, especially if there's something that's bothering him and he's asking for feedback. They're letting him down.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark :
If this other person is angry and has sent that complaint up the chain, leadership is also letting her down because her concerns are not being articulated at all in a clear way to the person who would be able to address them. And so both of those are squeezes on the leadership. And so that's my thought there. And again, I'm not passing sentence here because as you said, a lot of times with HR stuff, we can't tell people different things and I don't know, I don't know what's going on about this.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark :
So that's the first conversation with me is up the chain.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark :
The second conversation is obviously going to be with the other person, and I would not do this. So we always start with timing like, “I'm not going to go talk to this person 30 seconds after they yelled at me.” But the next day I would go and say, “Hey, can we talk about yesterday?” And then when they say, “Yes,” I would say, “I don't know what I did to upset you. It was not my intention to upset you. I want to be good to work with. Can you tell me what I did or what you think or heard that I did that made you upset?” And then I would stop and listen, and that's it like, “Can you tell me what's going on?”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yeah. I would open up with the why, which is, “I want to be good to work with and I honestly don't know what I did. And I just want to understand. Can you help me understand what did I do?” And then listen.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Because hopefully they're going to jump into the conversation and you're going to get some clarity that you're not getting from your bosses, number one.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yep. Sure.
Stephanie Goss:
And then number two, when you practice active listening there, then hopefully it opens up the path for the last part of that conversation, which has to be, how do you move forward? Because it wouldn't for me, I'll own it. And on a personal level, I do not want to work somewhere where colleagues are going to shout at me. And so it would not work for me to continue to work with this person. And so I am going to listen to them and I am going to hear them out. And it may be that I need to actually process what they're saying and I might not be able to resolve it right then and there. And I still want to figure out a way, whether it's in the moment or the next day or after I've had some time to process whatever that looks like, to come back to the conversation and talk about how are we going to move this forward and make the ask of them.
There's a few a things I could hallucinate I would want to ask for, “Hey, if you've got a problem with me, let's just talk about it. Before you're ready to full-on, be screaming at me in the treatment room, right? Let's talk about that.” But also setting the expectation. “I don't want to be screamed at. It doesn't make me feel good and I don't want to work in an environment like that.” Whatever the ask is, and it's going to be different to different people because there are some people who could be like, got full on, got screamed at rolls right off their back and could care less, and they just want to know what they did wrong so they can fix it. And you'd have other people who might be like, “Oh, I will fix the thing that I did wrong, but also don't scream at me,” right? Everybody's going to have a different response to that.
But no matter what your response is, you have to figure out a way to move it forward and ask for something different. Because being undefined and being rudderless is not, to your point, Andy, is not a sustainable place to live. And so I love that you said like, “Just shut up and listen,” and practice active listening skills and engage with what they're saying. Repeat back to them what you hear them saying, asking for clarity, asking for more detail. Tell me what that looks like. Tell me what that sounds like. Because what they tell you could go a million different ways.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Sure.
Stephanie Goss:
But practicing all those active listening skills that we employ in the exam room every single day with clients, with your colleague, and then figuring out, how are you going to move the conversation forward? What do you need to ask from them? How do you need to resolve this situation? Do you need an apology? Whatever that looks like, what is the forward motion going to be?
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yeah, I agree. I completely agree. Well, do you want to pause here for a second and take a little break, and then we'll come back and we rolled headspace and action steps together this week. But let's come back and I want to get into what this second peer-to-peer employee-to-employee conversation looks like. Sound good?
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. Yeah, sounds great. Hey friends, I want to make sure that you know about an upcoming workshop that you're not going to want to miss. And I know I say that about a lot of our workshops, but I mean it about this one. Well, I mean about all of them, let's be real. But this one holds a special place, near and dear to my heart, two reasons. One, my friend Dr. Jen Quammen is leading the workshop. Number two, it's about technology. And if you've listened to the podcast, you know what a techno nerd I am. I super excited to have Jen with us. Thanks to our friends at TeleVet. She is going to be talking on May 24th at 8:00 PM Eastern, so 5:00 PM Pacific, about trending technology in the veterinary space. Now, I love technology. We've talked about it on the podcast. We've had guests on the podcast. And one of the conversations that has been going around and around in a lot of the groups I'm in lately has been about ChatGPT or artificial intelligence, AI.
And so if you've ever wondered about using AI in your practice or if you have wondered about wearable technology for pets, communication tools and techniques that use artificial intelligence or advanced technologies, those are the things that Jen is going to dive into during this workshop. Because most of us have wondered when we've talked about those technologies, if they actually will save us any time or energy, or if they're just a new trend. So Jen is going to dive into some of the things that have come to market, some of the things that are actively being used in veterinary medicine that you might not know about, and ways that we can incorporate technology into the veterinary space in a way that works with us and not against us. So if this sounds like something that you'd love to get in on, head on over to the website at unchartedvet.com/events to find out more. We'll see you there. And now back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark :
All right. So when we go into these conversations, especially if we're dealing with somebody who yelled at us yesterday. I want to go in with a good, healthy mindset for this specific conversation, right? And so the two things that I want to do is the first thing I want to do is lower the stakes, and we talk a lot about lowering the stakes.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark :
I do not want to engage this person in a cross swords battle for justice and truth. I just, “Hey, I know what you say yesterday. I want to understand what I did. I want to be good to work with. Can you talk me through where your frustration is coming from? Because I want you to enjoy working with me.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark :
And that's it. Not, “I need you to justify what you said. I need you to prove that you're right, and I think that you're wrong, and how dare you.” No, no, no, no. It's got to be lower the stakes. “Look, I would like to understand because I want us to work well together. Can you tell me where you're coming from?” So try to lower the stakes down. Okay? Remember that sometimes people can give us good feedback, but not in the way that we like. And I've had to learn this in my career on social media and being pretty well known is I get emails that may have valid feedback, not in a kind way. It doesn't mean their point's not valid, they just did not deliver their feedback in a way that I would liked. You know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark :
There was definitely ways they could have given me the feedback that would be much nicer, but I don't get to control how people give their feedback. It doesn't mean we're going to let people be abusive to us, of course. But it just means sometimes people will say something in a mean way, but their point is not entirely invalid. And so I'm going to try to parse out and so to say, “Okay. This person might not talk to me. They might not give me the feedback in the way that I want. But I'm going to really try to hear what is their complaint? What is their concern? What is the piece of information that I need? And I'm going to try to not let the rest of it affect me too much. I'm digging for what I need.”
The last part or the next part at least anyway, is going to be, I'm going to take it, and this is where I take it. I'm going to hear what they say. And at this point, we're going to have to get a little bit flexible. If they say things that are untrue, I'll probably say, “That didn't happen,” or, “Look, I promise you, I did not say that. I don't know where that came from, but that's not what happened.” And so I am definitely open to having those conversations. Again, I'm here to listen. That doesn't mean I won't respond, but I'm going to have to choose not to actively jump in and defend myself. I'm going to have to say, “You know what? I may not agree with what she says, but I'm going to be here to listen and where possible, I'll provide some clarity.”
And if there are some things that she's saying that are not true, I'm probably going to say, “That's not accurate.” And I'll put that forward, “I don't think that my goal today is going to be to reach a resolution in this first conversation.” And I think a lot of people really want that. They want to go and hash it out and be done. And maybe you can, but I think for a lot of times what I want to do is go in there and hear what they're saying, and then I'm going to say, “Great. Hey, I appreciate you giving the feedback. Can you tell me where you're coming from? I'm going to process this a little bit. So let me have some time with this, and then I may ask you some more questions if that's okay.” And then I'm going to end the conversation. I'm going to end it there. I'm not looking for an apology, anything like that, but I'm trying, I came here to hear and understand what the behavior was.
And then for me personally, what I'll often do is I'll go away. And now the question is when you get feedback from somebody, I fully reject the idea that all feedback is valid. I, as a public figure, I get a lot of feedback and a lot of it is dumb. And again, I'm very warmhearted and I like everybody. That doesn't mean that everyone who opens their mouth has good feedback, you should take in and internalize and follow.
Stephanie Goss:
True story.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Some people have feedback that's dumb. And so I'm not going to tell them it's dumb, but I'm not going to follow it like a religious text like, “I'm going to take it.” And sometimes in the moment things that sound dumb might have some more truth to them or they might require some follow up questions, but I am going to take it away. And the next part of me is say, “Okay. Of what feedback I received, what do I think is valid or may have some validity?” And so I'm going to sit with that a little bit. This is often a point where I call in other people, people that I work with that I like, people who know me, who work in the clinic, and I can say, “Hey, I got some feedback about this or behaving this way. Have you ever seen me do that? Or do you think that that's an accurate representation of what it's like to work around me?”
And sometimes I need that external validation of the scenery because it's hard to see ourselves. And if someone says, “Andy, when you get busy, you make these faces and you look really severe or you look really angry.” I didn't know that I did that with my face, let's just say. Stop laughing. I don't do that.
Stephanie Goss:
Let's just say.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Let's just say. I don't think I do. But if someone said that, I would go ask other people and say, “Is this true?” I don't know. I don't know what people would say, but I would ask other people who know me, “Hey, have you seen this in me? Do you think this is valid feedback based on working with me?” And again, I'm trying to keep it low stakes because I want the person to feel safe and comfortable saying, “Yeah, Andy, I've seen that a couple times.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Okay. So I'm trying to figure out for myself, and sometimes I'll put other people what is valid, and then I'm going to go back and I'll probably either rehab the conversation or I'll take this feedback and I'll start to put it into practice. But that's generally what that looks like. If this person just goes off the rails and says hateful things or mean things, I'm going to hopefully screen that out as not being valid. And then those would be the things I would have a conversation with management again. I would say, “Hey, I feel like I'm being mistreated. I'm being called these names. I asked what the problem was and I got yelled at again. And so I'm really at a standstill. I don't know how to engage with this person.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right. I need help.
Dr. Andy Roark :
“I'm going to need some guidance and I'm going to need support in ending this conflict. And you take it back to management.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And I think the important piece of that process that gets skipped a lot in the clinic is the initial step of talking to each other. And sometimes there are instances where it truly might not be safe. And that's why I said if someone is threatening or intimidating or physically, verbally, which I could see an argument here where this is the case. I could totally see a case where you bypass having the conversation with the person and just talking to your boss about it. Because if you truly are not, if it's not a safe situation, that is absolutely appropriate. However, in the clinic, a lot of the time there is conflict and there is…
That it is very often that people will come and sit in my office and tell me about conflict where they have not actually had a conversation with the other person. That they're mad about something or the other person did something to them, or whatever it is, perceived real, what have you. And so for me as the manager, going back to the bosses here, normally I would say to my team, “What is your plan to do something about it?” And so I like your part about you have to at least have the conversation with them as long as it's safe to do so. And then if you're not getting help, then it's perfectly, to me, it's perfectly acceptable to say, “Okay. This is what I tried.” Now, like you said, “I'm at a standstill. I don't know what to do with this. I tried, here was my try, here's what I did, here's how I did it, and then I need your help.”
But I think that's a step that gets skipped a lot in the clinic. And it is a trick as a manager that we need to stop trying to be the hero and the conflict mediator before we ask our team to learn the communication skills. And if Undefined and Rudderless can go to their teammate and say, “Hey, look, I want to be a better team member, and I am sorry that I did something that clearly upset you because you were to the point where you were shouting at me, and I don't want you to feel like that. Can you please tell me what I did? Or tell me more about the situation so I can understand because I truly don't want to put you in that position again. I don't want you to feel like that.” Even if I was crazy hacked off, if somebody came to me and had that conversation with me, I would engage with them. I would have a rational conversation with them. And so I think definitely having that conversation with the colleague is the other piece of it for me.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. So yeah, I think that's how I would take this. The worst case scenario is you come all the way back around after this and you're right back where you started. And you say, “I still don't know what I'm doing here. I feel like people don't like me or they're talking about behind my back.” I think if you've gone all the way through this exercise and you still don't know what is going on and you don't feel comfortable here, I think we've got a couple of options, right? We've got a couple of options.
The first option would be to try to say, “All right. This is not bad enough for me to leave. I'm going to stick it out for now and see what happens. I think what I would try to do possibly is find a mentor in the practice, someone who I could say, ‘Hey, I'm having these feelings. I don't feel like I'm getting along with people. Would you be willing to give me some feedback as I could go along, or look out for me, or give me any insight about where people's heads are so that I don't continue to deal with these problems?'”
Stephanie Goss:
Well, that goes back to your point that you made earlier about sometimes we get feedback and it is dumb. We shouldn't believe it all. And sometimes there's truth to it. And so I think everybody needs to find what I call their inner circle and find someone or some ones that you can truly ask and trust to tell you the truth. And candidly, you and I just had one of those conversations where you were like, “Hey, you were in this situation with me.” This is what I did and said, “Did I do anything wrong? Could I have done it differently? What do you think?” I think finding those people who you trust to give you that feedback are really, really important because we can all improve.
And if your bosses aren't going to tell you the truth and if you can't get it out of this other person, to your point, finding someone in the practice and just say, “Hey, look, I want to get better at doing my job, and in particular, I want to get better at being a better teammate. So can you help me work on it? What are some things that you think that I could work on?” And asking them to help you facilitate that is great.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And the last part is you look around and you say, “I don't feel comfortable here. Management is not helping me. I don't see this problem getting better. I'm not getting any coaching or guidance on what I need to do to try to address this problem for myself. I don't want to keep being here. This is not where I want to be.” Especially if you've worked to other places in the past and not had any problems like this, I would say. Well, this may be a place where they've got a bully, or a toxic person, or a cultural problem, or something like that, and management does not seem willing or able to bring this under control. So it's a positive work experience for you, then you have options.
As I said at the beginning, which is to say, “I'm going to go on and go somewhere else and give it a shot, and hopefully get some feedback or have a culture where this is not a problem.” I don't think that's wrong. I don't think it's a failure. I think it sucks if you're asking for feedback or asking how to address this issue, and nobody will tell you until you have to leave because you're unhappy. That seems awful, but fair is where pigs win ribbons.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, it goes back to what you were saying earlier too about self-awareness, right? If there really are things that you could work on and you have that self-awareness, then you can see the feedback, right? You can hear the things that are true in the mixture of things that might not be true or noise, right? And I can also sleep just fine at night with the self-awareness of knowing, “Look, I asked for the feedback. I worked on things that I thought that I could work on. I didn't get any more information out of anybody. I have no problem changing jobs. I have no problem sleeping at night,” right? That's where the self-awareness comes in and works in your favor sometimes.
Dr. Andy Roark :
Yeah. No, I agree.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. So we weren't as far apart as I thought when you said, “I don't really think there's two things.”
Dr. Andy Roark :
But I do think it's one problem and that one problem is we are not getting feedback. We're not getting feedback from management. We're not getting feedback from our peers. This is a feedback and feedback solicitation problem. I do lay this at the feet of management based on what the information that we've got, because not all employees are equipped to give good feedback, and that is when management has to step in and say, “This person is asking for feedback. They're feeling uncomfortable. This person has feedback they want to give. I'm going to step in and facilitate this feedback.” Or if this is something where other people are having this feedback and only one of them has blown up so far, again, those things should have gone through management. They should have been made part of the personal development plan for the person who wrote to us and said, “I'm unhappy and I'm feeling like people are talking behind my back.”
Those are the things that management should have intervened and have given that person more clarity. If this is something that they're handling elsewhere, like say a toxic team member or something that needs to get snuffed out, then they need to be abs- They don't have to tell our writer what's happening.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. But they need to be clear.
Dr. Andy Roark :
But they need to be absolutely clear that, “You are doing just fine. Your performance is excellent. This is not a problem about you.” You can't be vague and say, “Try to be more of a team player.” What does that mean?
Stephanie Goss:
No. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark :
You've got to either have to come with more details about what this person could do, or you need to tell them, “No, your performance is exemplary. You don't need to change anything, and this is an issue that we are addressing that is external to you. So if you can ignore it, that is the best thing while we work through it.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Well, I love that language. Oh, man. Okay. I think that's it for me. Anything else for you?
Dr. Andy Roark :
I think that's it from me too. Thanks for talking through it with me.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Hopefully, Undefined and Rudderless, they still love the podcast after this.
Dr. Andy Roark :
I hope so. I hope so. I hope it's helpful.
Stephanie Goss:
I know. Take care everybody. Have a great week.
Dr. Andy Roark :
See you guys.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast, and as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website, the address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
