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Jun 07 2023

Are We Still Doing Non-Competes?

This week on the podcast…

This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice management geek Stephanie Goss are in the mailbag with a question that might just light this episode on fire. An associate vet who is thinking ahead to owning their own practice is asking if they are nuts for considering throwing away the non-compete option someday as a practice owner. Especially when they view it in light of their own personal experience trying to separate from a toxic practice they found themselves in! Andy and Stephanie have some fairly strong opinions on this one so hang on folks, let's get into this…

Uncharted Veterinary Podcast · UVP – 235 – Are We Still Doing Non – Competes?

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag


Upcoming Events

June 21, 2023: Teaching Strategies That Foster Team Learning and Development with Josh Lucas

This event is for Uncharted Members. Learn more about teaching strategies for your team from former teacher-turned-practice-manager Josh Lucas. This is a members-only event. Join the Community for more content like this coming soon!

July 1, 2023: Effective & Efficient Team Meetings with Maria Pirita

Have you ever felt like your team would benefit from meeting more often, or maybe a little less often? Do you struggle to find techniques that truly make your team meetings effective? Find the right balance in this workshop.


Episode Transcript

Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody, I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week we're diving into the mail bag, but we're picking out a letter. This one was kind of handpicked because I had a wonderful time talking about this exact topic with some of my peers last week at our Uncharted April Veterinary conference. So we're recording this, this isn't coming out until the end of May, but I was having this conversation about non-competes and feeling pretty fiery about it and lo and behold, there was something in the queue from the mail bag from an associate vet who is asking the question, “Am I kind of on planet crazy to consider one day, when I own my own practice, not having non-compete be a thing in that practice?” Andy and I have some strong thoughts on this topic, so let's get into this one, shall we?

Speaker 2:
And now the Uncharted Podcast.

Andrew Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie, a kiss is not a contract, Goss.

Stephanie Goss:
That time you weren't ready.

Andrew Roark:
No, I… Okay. I was like, “Yeah, no, we're going.” And then I didn't. I double took. Yeah, A Kiss is Not a Contract actually is a song by Flight of the Conchords who I love.

Stephanie Goss:
I've not heard from those guys in a hot minute.

Andrew Roark:
Oh no. I still listen to the classics. Business time, still makes me just laugh.

Stephanie Goss:
Oh man.

Andrew Roark:
Oh man, I celebrate their collection. Oh boy.

Stephanie Goss:
How's it going?

Andrew Roark:
Oh man, it's good. It's good. It's raining here and so I've got a rowdy doodle that-

Stephanie Goss:
Wants to go out.

Andrew Roark:
That's determined to just make havoc because he can't go out.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andrew Roark:
So yeah, he woke up-

Stephanie Goss:
Shockingly it is also raining in Washington.

Andrew Roark:
Oh wow. Yeah. Oh, well, works out sometimes.

Stephanie Goss:
Because it's always raining here.

Andrew Roark:
Yeah, no. It's been beautiful.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.

Andrew Roark:
We're getting into the summertime in South Carolina at this point when it's coming out and boy, it's beautiful here, but it's nice to get a little bit of rain.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Well, I am excited. I picked this one out of the mail bag. You guys have been doing a great job of sending in questions because there's quite the little queue built up in there, but I was having some conversation… Our Uncharted April event, when we're recording this, you and I just finished that last week and we're having some conversation about this topic and when I saw this mailbag question, I was like, “Ooh, let's do that one,” because I'm still super, super excited about it. So we got an email from someone who is currently an associate vet, but who is wanting to become a practice owner. And so they had quite a toxic environment that they were working in and quit their practice and the resulting interactions between themselves and the practice owner as they were exiting that practice left them thinking ahead to what they don't want to do one day when they're a practice owner.
And so their specific questions have to do with employment contracts and non-competes. So they were saying, “I find non-competes to be a little bit outdated, especially since I live in a pretty dense urban area. The non-solicitation piece I totally get, but who am I to begrudge an employee if they can find a better opportunity elsewhere? And with clients, there are so many of them that I really feel like, in an urban setting, “Does this really matter?”” And they were asking, “When I'm thinking ahead as a practice owner, am I crazy for thinking about disregarding non-competes from my contracts? What are your guys' takes on non-competes?” And I just was like, “Oh yeah, let's talk about this one.”

Andrew Roark:
Yeah, I think this is good. I think non-competes are an area where there are some significant changes that are taking place.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andrew Roark:
It is a big deal. I was talking to my friend, Dr. Lance Roasa, who's a veterinarian and also a lawyer, and he helps veterinarians with contracts. He's an awesome guy. I've interviewed him a couple times on the Cone of Shame podcast and this was something that he really teed off on as far as a hot area where change is really happening. So I think that that's really cool. So I'm happy to talk about this and where I think it's going and where it seems to be going. And then also I think we could talk in a little bit broader context about contracts in general. I think that that's a fun conversation.

Stephanie Goss:
Sure. Okay. I'm up for it. Like I said, we were having some soapboxy kind of conversation about this last week, so I'm excited. I'm here for it.

Andrew Roark:
Yeah. So before we start talking about non-competes, we need to talk about what the importance of the contract is. And I think a lot of people hand wave over this and they say, “Well, you get a contract. That's just what you do.” And I think there's a couple things about contracts that people maybe don't really think about or don't really understand. And so I will share with you through a school of hard knocks a couple things I have learned about contracts. I am a big believer in the idea that a contract is probably only worth the reputation of the two people who sign it. I really am. I think a lot of people, because they want to believe they have control in this world, believe that they're going to get a contract and that is what will be, and what is written in that contract is chiseled in stone.
And I can tell you, having navigated more of the legal system than I ever wanted to, that's not true. And I wish that it was, but it's not. You say, “Well, this is written down. How could that not be held accountable?” The two things that I would say to people is some people just flat out lie. You could say, “Well, they didn't do this.” And they'd say, “Yes, I did.” And you're like, “No, you didn't.” And unless you can prove that they did not do something, they can say that they did. And it is wildly frustrating, but there's nothing you can do about it. And I think that happens a lot. And they can also make up things and say that you did them. Unless you can prove that you didn't do the made up things that they said, they can muddy the waters.
Oh boy, that's a story for another day. But anyway, it is just a truth about our legal system is I always naively just kind of assume that people would be honest and what was written down would be enforced. And I can tell you, having played the game for a little bit, it ain't that way. The other thing is that enforcing contracts is really expensive. I mean, it is really expensive. Because you're hiring a lawyer at hundreds of dollars an hour to wade into trying to enforce this contract. And if you are going up against, especially a big company, one of my friends, as he put it, was, “Andy, you're fighting a grizzly bear with a pocket knife and it's not going to end well.”

Stephanie Goss:
That's a good analogy.

Andrew Roark:
It's a good analogy. You go, “Oh, I'm going to go up against the legal department of this massive corporation with my buddy Earl, the local attorney. This is going to go well.” Nope, nope. So anyway, those are hard lessons about contracts that I have learned, and I should have given a trigger warning before I laid that down because some people just really don't want to hear that, I'll just tell you that. That's the American legal system in a lot of ways. And I can't speak to the Canadian legal system, but that's it. I will also say, just as we talk about contracts, that suing people is a terrible, horrible experience that you really, really, really want to avoid. You want to avoid suing people as much as you want to avoid being sued. The whole thing is awful. And so when you start thinking about contracts, start thinking about, “What does this really mean and what is really going to be enforceable? And what am I actually going to do if this person violates these things? What are we going to actually do?”
And I'll save you a lot of turmoil that I went through over the years but the ultimate outcome is it's all relationships. It's all relationships and clear expectations. And so I'm not saying I don't use contracts, of course I do, but I think have a pretty healthy view of them, which is, I really don't want to use this. I think the big things that I want here are clear expectations about what I expect and what you can expect from me, and that is the most valuable part of the contract. And then just a focus on a relationship, which means I want to be a good, trustworthy, honest person and I want you to be a good, trustworthy, honest person. And we're going to communicate as we go along as if we didn't have a contract and we just had to work it out on good faith. And that's my best advice on contracts. And so as I start to lay that out and say, “This is what I've learned about contracts,” you can already probably see where I'm starting to go as far as non-competes and things like that.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes. And the other thing that I would add is I think it's funny, I remember really fairly early on in my career as a manager, I remember being asked to sign a contract. And I remember talking about it with my colleagues. And at the time, managers didn't have contracts, it was just doctors and everybody thought I was crazy. But I'll tell you the secret from a headspace perspective, because I think you're spot on, Andy. And for me, maybe I was just young enough and dumb enough and naive enough to not be worried about the legal perspective of it. And what I mean by that is I understood the gravity and I understood, “This is a legally binding document and I'm signing the thing.” I got all of that. And to your point, for me it was about spelling out the plan, spelling out the expectations on both sides.
And I was looking at it from a headspace perspective of, “Am I going to feel good going to sleep at night if I live up to the terms that I'm agreeing to? And on the flip side of that, if the other person in this relationship or persons in this relationship don't live up to their side of the bargain…?” I had a mentor explain it to me, and this was the light bulb moment, they were like, “You should have no qualms about walking away if you've lived up to your side of the bargain and they don't.” That's how I sleep easy at night. And that was really from a headspace perspective was the light bulb for me because it shifted my mindset when it came to the contract into the space that I think you're talking about, Andy, which is, “What's the point? What's the why behind it?”
Well, for me, on a personal level, I'm a big advocate for it, even for our team members, which a lot of managers look at me like I've completely lost my mind when I bring that up. But it's about clear expectations. It's about knowing what I want, what I can expect on both sides, and what my employer, in this case, generally can expect from me as an employee and what I can expect to receive from them.

Andrew Roark:
It should be a two-way document like that. That is the why of the contract for me. Now, additional point I want to add, as you say that, it is amazing to me how many people sign contracts without reading them.

Stephanie Goss:
Oh my gosh, yes.

Andrew Roark:
That's bonkers.

Stephanie Goss:
That's frightening.

Andrew Roark:
And I have seen it so many times and in big companies, I've been like, “You guys signed this thing, you signed this?” And don't be that person. Do not be that person. When you ask Andy Roark for advice and I look at it and go, “You signed this?” It's important, it's important if you're going to sign it… Especially if you're going to sign something that someone else wrote, you better really just read it and know what's in it.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andrew Roark:
And so that's the other part. The last thing I'll say about contracts, and this is sort of where I came to in my career a while back with contracts. And so this is what I aspire to, and I think that our writer will probably like this. I've talked on the podcast a number of times about Rawls' Veil of Ignorance and Rawls' Veil of Ignorance is this sort of mental exercise where you look at a system and you say, “If I was dropped into a different chair at the table than the one I'm at now, would I be okay with that? Would I feel like the arrangement was fair?” I'm not saying, “Would I be happy necessarily but would I feel like it was fair?” And that's Rawls' Veil of Ignorance. So I run Uncharted and we hire presenters and speakers and I have worked as a presenter and speaker for years and years, like 15 years now I've done this.
And it's interesting to be on the other side of the table because I'm looking at the event part and saying, “Boy, we got to pay the hotel and we got catering, all these things and blah, blah, blah.” And it has always been important to me to put forward a contract that I would think was fair if I was a speaker. That doesn't mean I would take it. I might say, “This is not enough money for me,” or blah blah, blah, blah, but I would feel that it was fair and I would not feel that it was a manipulative contract or it was trying to take more than what I thought was a fair agreement. And so I really tried to work it backwards and forwards to say, “Do I feel good about this as a person writing the contract? Would I feel that this was fair if I was signing the contract?”
And again, this is sort of a philosophical point, but I really think that that's what we should aspire to. I think that's part of being a good, honest, ethical person and a good employer is to say, “I want an agreement that works for me and I believe it's going to work for them and we can talk back and forth about it, but for the most part, I want this to be something that if I was on the other side, I would say, “Okay, I understand why you're asking for what you're asking for.” And we can decide whether it's 14 days of vacation or 10 or 20, but the basic idea being, “Okay, there's a limited amount of vacation and it's clearly stated and I'm on board with that.”

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up the point about the fairness and looking at it from through Rawls' Veil of Ignorance, but also the perspective of, “Did you read this because I really can't believe you signed this?” From a headspace perspective, that's really important to me because if you read it and it seems incredulous, you should probably ask. You know what I mean? You should listen to the Spidey senses. And I speak not so much from personal experience, but I've had multiple conversations with young veterinarians and I know, Lance, having worked with as many vets as he has over the years, has heard this time and time again. To your point, people can ask for whatever they want. So as a practice owner, there's nothing to stop me from throwing out a contract that says you have to give me 12 months notice as a veterinarian because maybe in a perfect world, that's what I would want.
On the flip side of that, that's where I would be like from a headspace perspective, “Oh buddy, if you don't read that and you don't look at that and go, “I'm not signing this,” I'm giving you permission, look at that and say, “I'm not signing this,” because that's nuts.” That's where from a headspace perspective, we have to think about it from the perspective of a relationship. And sometimes relationships work great and everything works out really well and sometimes they don't. And so not to assume bad intent because we want to assume good intent, and so when we're framing it on both sides, we should think about it through the lens of good intent. And we should also think about it from the lens of, “This is a relationship and what happens if it doesn't work out? What does that look like?”
And it amazes me how often… And unfortunately this veterinarian who wrote into us found themselves in that predicament where they were trying to get out of their contract and they then went back and read their contract and sure enough, there was a clause in there that bit them in the butt in a big way. And they were like, “Well, never going to do that again,” which is where this came from. And it never ceases to amaze me how often I see that being the case for veterinarians and it makes me really sad.

Andrew Roark:
Well, the notice of leave part is one of the three big bugaboos that I see in contracts with veterinarians, and it's a really wonderful example of that Rawls' Veil Of Ignorance. And I say this because I talk to friends who are practice owners and they say, “Well, if you tell me you're leaving, Associate Vet Andy, it's going to take me four months to get another doctor given the hiring climate right now. And so I need you to give me four to six months notice so that I can find another veterinarian and my business is not damaged and I don't have to worry about having to lay off support staff because we don't have enough doctors,” and blah blah. And they have a very reasonable case from their side of the table on why they would like six months of notice.
And that's why the Rawls' Veil is really good because I said, “All right, clear your mind for a second. Now you come sit on my side of the table and you're an associate vet who's unhappy here or whose spouse is trying to leave. Are you going to stick around for six months after realizing that you need to go? Would you be willing to live apart from your spouse because they got a new job and you have to live alone for six months and pay two rents or a rent and a mortgage? Come on.” That's ridiculous if you put yourself on the other side of the table. And again, I'm not trying to vilify the owners, I understand exactly why they feel the way they do, but part of a good contract is to say, “I see this. Surely the associate vet recognizes, hopefully they recognize, why I need some runway. I need to know a bit ahead of time.”
And I don't know if people understand or not, I mean I hope that they do. So there is a reasonable amount of time to say, “Hey, go find yourself another vet and I want to give you some time and support you while you do that. And at the same time, I need to be free to go on and live my life after I decide that I need to go somewhere else.” And that seems very reasonable as well. So that's a big one. And again, I've seen so many doctors that when they recognize how much notice they're supposed to give is when they decided to leave and they're like, “Oh, 90 days? I'm supposed to do 90 days?” I'm like, “Yeah, that's what you agreed to.” So there's that. The other two areas I always throw out when I say to people, “You didn't read your contract?” The non-competes are a big one.
And I feel like the vet schools have done a good job where there's been a lot of business education in vet schools in a way there did not used to be. So I feel like this is less common, but boy, I remember 10, 12, 15 years ago, there were a lot of doctors who looked around and they were like, “I'm not happy here. I'm going to go work across the street.” And they looked down and it was like, “Oh no, I signed a 30 mile. I am not able to work in this town. My 30 miles runs out in the farmland outside of town, which means basically I have to leave town because it didn't work at this practice.” And I go, “Oh boy, that's a big one.”
The last one is negative accrual, which is again, it was phrased in a way that people didn't really recognize what it meant. And so what happened was the doctors would say, “Oh, I get paid on production, that's great. Let's go.” And what they didn't realize is that if they didn't hit their production numbers, they had to give back the amount… Oh, not really. But the amount that they came up short would be held against them as opposed to resetting and letting them try again next month. And so they would come in as a new graduate into a new system and they wouldn't have cases lined up and they wouldn't come anywhere close to hitting their assigned number.
And then they're so deep in the hole that when they are a good productive veterinarian, they're still buried underneath the deficit they had when they weren't fast and they weren't seeing cases. And again, I also understand from the practice owner's standpoint, when they say, “Well, I'm supposed to pay this person and if they're not generating revenue, then I shouldn't have to pay.” I'm like, “I get it kind of,” but also put yourself in the position of the doctor and you go, “This is not going to fly.”

Stephanie Goss:
It's funny because I can absolutely see both sides on all three of those points. The non-compete, the negative accrual, the leave, I can see arguments on both sides like you laid out. And so for me now where I'm at in my career, I look at it and I think for a lot of practices, particularly I would say that the reasoning behind it is different I think in corporate practice structure often from private practice structure, but ultimately I feel like there's a root of commonality between the two. And that is, “We don't like conflict.” And really for a lot of people, the contract serves to avoid communicating about those hard things. And so the negative accrual often is one of those things. And it's funny because I worked in a practice that paid their doctors solely on production, private practice, and we had negative accrual and I didn't think twice about it for a really, really long time.
And then I had an associate who was on the other side of the table and was asking some really great questions that really made me think about it. And what I realized is that that is a perfect illustration for we choose to have the contracts because we're afraid of the communication that has to come once someone isn't doing the thing that they're supposed to be doing, right? They're not upholding their end of the bargain. And from a headspace perspective, I think it helps get us into the place where we can assume good intent on both sides because if we look at it through the lens of, “Oh, we might be trying to have this document that will help us avoid some of this conflict,” it becomes easier to I think assume that good intent. And what I would say is, as leaders, whether you're a manager, practice owner or director, it's bullshit. You have to communicate.
So now my point of view has changed radically. I don't want to have to have a contract that has a non-compete or has a negative accrual because realistically, I really truly believe I'm not doing my job as a manager if I can't have the hard conversation with an associate, whether they're a new grad or a tenured doctor like yourself who's been practicing for years. If there's a change in your production level over time and you're not producing to pay yourself, that's a conversation that I should be able to have. I shouldn't have to say, “Your contract says this is what you're going to do, so this is the lever that I'm going to pull to get you to do what I want.” I should be able to take accountability for that and I should be able to have that hard conversation.

Andrew Roark:
Well, I love that you say that. It is amazing how many policies and contractual pieces are put into place to avoid having to actually manage people. And there's this fairytale of, “If you set it up the right way, you don't have to manage people.” That's the whole pro-sol mentality for doctors is, “We pay them, they have a base salary and then we pay them on production, and then that way they're going to work hard and they're going to work up cases and I don't have to talk to them about their medical skills and what they're recommending in the rooms because it all takes care of itself. And I guess-“

Stephanie Goss:
“Because if they want to get paid, they're going to do the things that I want them to do.”

Andrew Roark:
Exactly. And you go, “That is not true. You still have to manage those people,” but it's amazing how much that's set up to be that way. One of the things I want to say about contracts, and you propped this into my mind, one of the absolute critical things to remember with contracts is there is no right or wrong here. A lot of people are like, “Okay, Andy, tell me what to ask for my contract and I'll go and get it. So negative accrual, out. Six months of notice, out, blah, blah.” The truth is none of those things are chiseled in stone. My thing is not to say to you, “Don't take a negative accrual contract.” It's not. It's to say, “You need to understand what the deal is and then you need to decide what is right for you and your family.”
I don't think my employer would mind me saying this at the vet clinic, but I work on a straight production at the vet clinic where I work and I love it and I do not expect any sort of a base salary or anything like that because I have great schedule flexibility and I travel and I do lots of other things. And the deal with them was, “Hey, let me come and work and I'll have sort of a flexible schedule, but I want to be here. I want to see cases and then we'll do a production deal and that's all you have to pay me. And that way if I travel, you're not losing any money,” whatever. It works great for us and for where I am in my career. So I would not knock anybody that. If a vet understands what negative accrual is and says, “I understand why you want this, and so I'm going to agree to it,” I'm fine with that. I really am, as long as everybody's eyes' wide open about what the deal is and why it is.
And I'm trying to think of a reason an employer would want that. Maybe the vet is pushing for a really high base salary and the employer's like, “I don't know that you can make this.” And so they say, “Well, we'll do a negative accrual then.” Maybe that's a compromise that works. And so if so, I don't want people to say, “Oh, she said the words negative accrual and Andy says that's horrible.” It's not. That's not how life works. It really is about your specific relationship and what you get. And so the last part I want to put forward sort of in headspace on contracts is this. And so I want you to hear this because this is really important. If you go into a contract trying to get ahead, you are limiting probably the outcome that you can achieve.
It's like the prisoner's dilemma. So the prisoner's dilemma is this psychology game where we set it up and the game can be a little bit complex, but basically the idea with the prisoner's dilemma is you have two players in this game and the best outcome for you in the short term is to try to screw over the other person. And if you screw over the other person, then you will get the better outcome. However, if both people try to screw each other over, you get the worst outcome. And so in the short term, the best thing is for you to screw the other person over and then not to screw you over. If you play the game multiple times in an ongoing way, you very quickly realize that the best possible outcome is collaboration. Don't screw them over and they don't screw you over and we get the second-best outcome again and again and again and again and again and again. Otherwise, you'll screw them one time and then they'll try to screw you and then you both end up screwing each other and you get the worst outcome again and again and again.
And I see contracts like that. So I hope that's not too far of a stretch, but basically the idea is if you go into it going, “Aha, I'm going to stick this associate vet I'm hiring,” or you're the associate vet and you're like, “I'm going to ask for this ridiculous thing and force it…” Like, “I'm going to ask for a salary that's way beyond what I can actually earn or justify and I'm going to use hardball tactics, I'm going to get it,” you might get it, but you're going to have a short tenure at that practice and it's not going to be fun and you're going to feel less than and you're going to have to sit to a lot of conversations about how you're not producing what your salary warrants and then ultimately you're going to leave and that's going to be how it's going to go.
And you're probably not going to be super popular when you go. And I say that to both sides. I really believe going into contracts, the best thing is to treat this like a relationship. It really is. “These are my needs, these are your needs. I want you to understand where I'm coming from and why I'm coming from here. I want to understand where you're coming from, what's important to you. Let's make this thing in a way that we both get what we need and then let's continue to communicate on an ongoing basis to make those adjustments.” And that is the strategy I think for having a healthy, happy employment.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, I love it. How do you feel about taking a break here?

Andrew Roark:
Yeah, let's take a break.

Stephanie Goss:
Hey, friends, I just wanted to talk for a quick second about the maths with you all because I've been thinking a lot about the workshops and normally here's where we tell you what's coming up and we've got some great stuff happening so you're going to want to head to unchartedvet.com/events and check out the upcoming calendar but I want to talk about maths because if you are not already an Uncharted member, you can attend any one of our workshops and pay $99 a piece. Most of them are just $99. You can do it as a one-off, great and fine. However, that adds up really quick. And if you do the monthly workshop with us, and I've seen some of you there as repeat customers, which is amazing, but you could spend almost $1,200 over the course of the year doing workshops with us, or you could pay $699 and get a 12-month membership, which means you get all of the workshops that we do at no extra charge.
You also get access to our amazing conversation in the community, our community members, and all of our community resources. And it is hopping over there. We've got conversation 24/7, we have got activities, we've got book club. We're writing our handbooks together in Handbook Helper Group. This year we are talking about development and leadership growth, doing our development pathway this year. We are doing hallway conversations where we're talking about topics. These are sessions that are community led, community driven. It is topics about things that are going on in your practice that you want to talk about with your peers. All of that is happening and it's all included for your $699 membership. So simple m, do you pay almost $1200 for the year or do you pay $699?
If you're not currently a member, you should head over to the website and use this argument to convince your boss. “Hey, boss, I need to be a part of this amazing community because Stephanie told me and because she's telling you that you will save money.” Hopefully that works, but I couldn't resist. I hope to see you at our upcoming workshops. Again unchartedvet.com/events for everything that's coming. And now back to the podcast.

Andrew Roark:
All right, so let's get into the actual question that we were asked.

Stephanie Goss:
Okay.

Andrew Roark:
Which is basically, “I'm thinking about not having a non-compete. I am sensing that there may be a falling out of favor. Am I about to make a really terrible decision decision?”

Stephanie Goss:
Sure.

Andrew Roark:
Exactly. All right, cool. The way I like to look at this is let's look at the non-compete real fast and let's just look at the pros and the cons. So we'll start with that. I think that people in the last… Before we took a break, I said, “We need to be really honest about what do we want and need.” And if you're like, “Hey, negative accrual works for me and I understand why you want it,” then you can do that. I think non-competes can be that way too. The question for me has to be, “Why do you, practice, want me to sign this non-compete? What do you care about?”
And if they say, “Well, I don't want you to work for anybody else in town,” I would say, “Hey, you're going to need to go jump in the lake.” That's ridiculous because I would say, “I'm not interested in signing a contract that's going to make it so that I have to move away if this doesn't work out.” I'm not interested in signing that. If you're thinking about adding a non-compete, what do you care about? And I think most people when they stop and, again Rawls' Veil Of Ignorance, and they put themselves in the position of their doctor, they go, “Okay, my real fear is that they're going to go literally set up a practice across the street,” or, “They're going to get this clientele and they're going to go to our main competitor who we have a Hatfield-McCoy's feud with, and they're going to take our clients and go work there.”
And so that's why people put it forward. The other reason that a lot of businesses put it forward, just to be clear and candid about what's out there, if you're running a practice like you might sell your practice, a lot of the big buyers of practices really like non-competes. They want to have the doctors locked in there in a way that makes it hard for the doctors to leave if the sale goes through. And so what their worry is that the practice gets bought and the doctors all just flee, and now they've bought this practice, they don't have any doctors in it, and so they really like non-competes. And so there is some stability that comes from that, and there's a lot of places that want that. And so just talking about why it happens, I think there are the big reasons. Are there other reasons that you have, Stephanie?

Stephanie Goss:
I could see both of those for sure. The other way I guess that I've seen the non-compete use that makes some valid sense to me is the opening your own practice within a certain radius of the existing practice, because that feels radically different from the seat of the business owner. My associate not being a fit for my practice or being unhappy and going to work at another practice across town feels very different than my associate being mentored by me and my team and then going and opening their own practice right across the street. Those two things feel very different. And so I could totally see something in there from that perspective. But again, when you use Rawls' Veil, is it enough to justify having it in the contract? I don't know.

Andrew Roark:
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, exactly. A lot of it was-

Stephanie Goss:
But I get wanting to ask for that.

Andrew Roark:
Of course.

Stephanie Goss:
For sure.

Andrew Roark:
And a lot of it is following suit forever. If you were an employer, you put a non-compete in, that's what you did. And so there was great pressure of, “This is how it's done and this is how it works.” So anyway, those are the reasons that I could come up with. “I don't want you to go work for a mega competitor,” “I don't want you to go and start up your own place and take half of our clients away from us. And again, can you accomplish some of that, “Don't take half of our clients away,” with non-solicitation agreements? I think you can to some degree. I really do. And then if you plan to sell the business, a buyer likes to know that doctors are locked in there. It gives them some security. So I get why that happens. What's funny is I start talking about training up a doctor and introducing them to your clients and they grow this clientele and then they leave and they work somewhere else.
You and I did a podcast back in April. It was the April 26th Uncharted. And it was about the technician that got trained and licensed and then left the practice after the practice had paid for licensing. And boy, this feels really similar. It really is that. “I'm investing into this person and putting all of this time and energy into them. And then what if they leave?” And you go, “Okay, I get it.” I think it hits very much on that same scarcity mentality of investing and then having someone go away and we don't like that. So anyway, I'll put this forward as reasons you would have a non-compete. I think the reasons that not have a non-compete, some of it would be, if you do the Rawls' Veil Of Ignorance and say, “I think most of us, we recognize that sometimes things don't work out.”
Someone comes and they work and then it doesn't work and they leave. And I would not feel good with saying to someone, “You have to leave town. You can't work in this town, so sit on your hands for two years.” I think morally I would sort of struggle with that. It doesn't feel like an equitable thing to do. So that's a big part of it. The other thing is that the winds are changing. The law is changing. In human medicine and in the legal profession, non-competes are now done. They're not allowed. And the rationale that was put forward to break that and make those things illegal is we should not have a system where doctors have a relationship with patients and then that patient-doctor relationship gets broken because the doctor has to leave because of a non-compete. We should keep that patient doctor relationship intact. The legal counsel-client relationship, same thing. That should not get broken if that person goes to work on their own or something else.
And so in order to protect those relationships, the non-competes have been struck down. I fully expect that veterinary medicine will probably fall into that same category for those same reasons. And we're already seeing that in a number of different states. There's a lot of pushback on this, right?

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, it's been interesting to see the transition here in Washington, because they're not enforceable. And so it's been interesting to see the transition, especially working in corporate medicine. And there's often the perception of, “Well, every corporate contract has a non-compete,” and it's not true.

Andrew Roark:
Yes, I think that's important.

Stephanie Goss:
Like you said, we're already seeing it and I would expect that we continue to see it more and more and more. And from this, looking at the pros of why would you not have a non-compete, I think it's a lot healthier in so many ways. And I love the point about human medicine and legal profession because I think there's legitimacy to that. If you have a client or a patient that's particularly bonded to one of your veterinarians and that veterinarian is deeply unhappy or there's circumstances that make them want to leave their practice or they want to open their own practice or whatever it is, mentally, ethically, I guess my personal take is, “Do I really want to get in the way of that?” Leaning into your point about human medicine, if they have a relationship, go with them and I think it goes back to what you said about the scarcity mentality.
I think so many of us are afraid of losing clients, and we think about the one client, but we don't just think about the one client. We can't stop ourselves at the one client. We go from the one client to living in the forest in a cardboard box. We can't. It's just human nature. We can't stop ourselves from catastrophizing that. And so on the practice owner, the practice leader side of it, we go from that, “Well, maybe a few clients or their really loyal clients will follow them.” Well, that should be good. It should be good that they worked in my practice and they built a loyal client base who wants to stay with them because I should look at it from the perspective of, “I shouldn't be in a place where that change should make or break my business.” And I think that scarcity mentality is something that is really hard for a lot of us, myself included. It took me a really long time to get to this place. It's really hard for us to wrap our brains around because it's scary.

Andrew Roark:
Yeah, I agree with that. There's just a couple things that are just sort of absurd in non-competes that I see that people haven't really questioned for a while. Some of it was the distance in the non-competes. Like, look, if somebody's willing to drive 10 miles to see a veterinarian, for God's sakes, let them drive that far. I mean, at that point, you're getting into a relationship that that person really cares a lot about, right? And I have seen that. I've seen people put these huge non-competes out there and you go, “This is ridiculous. No one's going to take your clients at scale at anything beyond a couple of miles.” And then the other part is, and this has always kind of baffled my mind, so here's the thing, you're a veterinarian and you're going in to take a job and you're like, “I've never worked here before and I don't know anybody.”
And they're like, “Here's a one-year contract, sign this non-compete.” And you're like, “How fast do you think I'm going to meet people?” And I get that the idea is introducing it early on but here's the thing too, there's a very good chance that I'm going to come here for one year, it's not going to be a great fit, and that I'm going to leave. We don't like to believe it… I think a huge percentage of relationship, especially with brand new veterinarians, that first year in practice, they're going to leave after a year. Why in the world are you making it so they can't stay in town? It doesn't make any sense. Now, I understand when people are like, “Oh, this person's been here 10 years and they have this huge clientele,” and blah, blah, blah. That feels different. I think there's different reasons there to say, “Well, this person at this point has kind of earned these relationships,” and so on and so forth.
But anyway, that was a thing as a… I remember being a brand new graduate or even not a brand new graduate, but as someone who would move to an area and they're like, “Here's the contract. Also if this doesn't work out, you can't work anywhere near here for two years.” And I'm like, “That's ridiculous. If we get six months into this and it's not working, I shouldn't be blown up for two years. That's not right.” So anyway, I've seen a lot of that stuff.

Stephanie Goss:
And I think on the flip side for a second, you just brought up a really, really good point. So I think there's validity for not having a non-compete. From the perspective of the associate, to your point, if it doesn't work out for me, I should not be restricted for two years from moving on. That is total BS. And this is where it's about, “We don't want to communicate,” coming into play. On the flip side, as a practice owner or practice manager, why, for the love of all that is holy, why would I want to trap an employee into a contract with me where if they are miserable, they might stay just to live out their crappy contract that I gave them in the first place because they're afraid of getting sued? I don't want them to be in my practice making my life and everybody else in the practice's lives miserable for two years because they're afraid of that.
Why would I do that to myself? And yet I see it time in time again from practice owners because they're thinking about leveraging it in the positive to protect themselves. But realistically, it, also to your point, opens you up just as often to that from the negative side because it is a relationship and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And we have to think about that because we are also trapping ourselves when we use the non-compete in that regard, especially when it comes to those leave notices or the, “Don't go to another practice within a such and such certain distance.”

Andrew Roark:
It can feel punitive rather than strategic meaning, “Oh, you want to leave? I am going to shut you down. I am going to punish you. I'm going to give you a two-year headache because you left.” And that's not a good place to build a reputation. The last part, when you factor this in, is there are more and more practice groups that are advertising no non-competes. They are like, “We don't believe in non-competes and we are not doing it.” And you can take them at their word and go, “Wow, some people are really great.” Or you can be more cynical and say, “Ooh, that's a hiring advantage. They've figured out that they're probably not going to be able to keep using these anyway. And so they're casting them down and trying to use that as a strategic advantage in hiring.”
But that said, I think more and more doctors are going to hear about places that don't need non-competes or require non-competes. And so I don't know how widespread that's going to be, but I do think it's probably going to happen. And so anyway, all that around, so takeaways from me and then you can decide if you want to jump in on this, these working relationships are relationships. Everybody should be open about what they're offering and what they need. And the plan should be that the contract is part of the ongoing conversation of us working together, and they should put that down. I think non-competes are falling out of favor across the country. I don't know if that will be a complete sweeping change in the next 10 years or if that will be spotty, but they are starting to fall out of favor.
I think your options as an employer are either to say, “We are not going to use them and we're going to focus instead on just trying to maintain good relationships. And we understand that there's some risk, just like we understand there's a risk of us training our staff and then having them leave to go work somewhere else. It's just a risk that we incur.” I think that's probably the healthiest way to go. The other alternative would be to say, “Hey, I have these very specific concerns and this is kind of what I need to feel safe.” And I would say you should dig into what those specific concerns are and communicate upfront.
I mean, there is a way to say, “We're going to have non-compete. It does not kick in until you've worked here for three years. And at that point, if you're here for three years, then it's going to be a fairly limited range, and it's for these really important reasons.” I think you can talk about that just like we talked about the other parts of the contract and say, “If you have a good why and you're willing to make concessions to get the other person to agree to that, and you can articulate what your needs are, if you're okay with it and the vet's okay with it and everybody feels good, then go with it.”

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And the only other thing that I would add to your point about it's a relationship and the contract helps define that relationship is on both sides. Especially knowing that this ask came to us from a potential practice owner, I'm going to throw out there, “Don't forget that needs change and they change on both sides.” And so the other piece of this that often doesn't get talked about, but I think that goes along with the ideas of non-competes and negative accrual and stuff like that, that is the winds of favor are shifting, is the perpetual contracts where it's like, “I don't review your contract again until you bring it up.” And as a manager, oh man, so much anxiety, especially early on in my career when one of my associate doctors would be like, “I would like to discuss my contract,” because it felt very negative.
It felt like, “Oh gosh, they're going to ask for some big change and it's going to be the end of the world.” The reality is we're humans in a relationship on both sides, and my needs change as an associate in the practice and my needs as a practice owner change, and we should have a system and a structure. Again, it goes back to the contract can't be the thing that you hide behind because you're afraid of the hard conversations. It has to be set up so that both people in the relationship have the ability to communicate their needs and make it work for them together. And to your point, Andy, sometimes we are in different corners. How do we bridge that gap to come together?
And so I think that's the other piece as a practice owner is if you're doing that to your team, if you're just like, “We're going to do your contract and then we're not going to review it again until you bring it up,” that would definitely be something that I would suggest. Take the stress and anxiety out of it and make a system for it so everybody knows, that it's communicated upfront like, “This is what we're going to do, this is how we're going to do it, this is when we're going to do it.” Put it on the calendar and then actually follow through.

Andrew Roark:
No, I agree.

Stephanie Goss:
Cool, cool.

Andrew Roark:
Well, I mean that's what I got. It's not the firm, “This is how you do it,” answer, but hopefully it's a good way of thinking about contracts in general. Start with the end in mind. What do we want to accomplish? Then going into the relationship, talking about needs that I have, needs the other side has, and then trying to come up with something that works for everybody. Know that non-competes seem to be losing favor. Know that there's other companies that are going without them and using that as a recruiting tool. Just adjust and react appropriately.

Stephanie Goss:
This is so fun. Take care, everybody. Have a fantastic week.

Andrew Roark:
Thanks, everybody. Take care.

Stephanie Goss:
Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast, and as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question, and I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care, everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.

Written by Dustin Bays · Categorized: Blog, Podcast · Tagged: culture, doctor, hiring, management, Practice ownership

Apr 05 2023

When You Hire Within, They Can’t ALL Get the Job

This week on the podcast…

This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss are in the mailbag to tackle a question about what to do when you are hiring from within the team for a promotion. You might be thinking “this doesn't sound like a problem!?!?” Well, the challenge for this practice lies in the details. They had multiple team members who threw their name in to the ring for the job and they have chosen the one who they feel is the best fit. Which means it is time to let the one who was chosen know AND let the ones who were not chosen know what that means for them. This is a fantastic letter with great questions that we had a lot of fun discussing. Let's get into this…

Uncharted Veterinary Podcast · UVP – 224 – When You Hire Within, They Can't ALL Get The Job

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.


Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to role-play on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag!

We want to hear about your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag


Upcoming Events

April 8: Neurodiversity – Tapping Into Superpowers with Ron Sosa

May 24: Trending Technology in the Veterinary Space with Jen Quammen

All Upcoming Events


Episode Transcript

Stephanie:
Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast.
This week on the podcast, Andy and I are headed back to the mail bag. We got a great question this week from a hospital who is getting ready to promote a lead CSR from within their team. You might be thinking, Stephanie, this doesn't sound like a problem, this sounds like a great solution. In fact, it is. It also creates some problems because this practice had multiple team members who are interested in the position, had some qualifications and stepped forward to say, I would like to throw my name into the ring. So this practice looked at everybody, they did their interview process, and now they have chosen their candidate who they think would be the best fit for the job, and they are wondering how do we go about setting this person up for success, and how do we go about telling the people who don't get the job that they're not getting it and keep the peace? Great set of questions. Super excited to dive into this one. Let's get into it, shall we?

Speaker 2:
And now the Uncharted podcast.

Andy:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie, you're the one that I want, ooh, ooh, ooh. Goss.

Stephanie:
Oh.

Andy:
I think I nailed that. I think I nailed that one.

Stephanie:
You did nail that. That was great. I'm still irritated with you, but that was great.

Andy:
That was so funny. I did The old, we're not…

Stephanie:
Are you ready? Yes, I'm ready.

Andy:
Are we ready?

Stephanie:
No, I'm not actually ready.

Andy:
Let's go. It was a hundred percent that. Yeah.

Stephanie:
Oh, you're killing me. How's it going?

Andy:
Oh man, it's good. It is really good. It's really, really, really good. Guess what?

Stephanie:
Are you trying to convince yourself that it's really good, because that's what that sounds like?

Andy:
No. Something wonderful is settling in my brain. I was looking at our podcast numbers.

Stephanie:
Oh yeah?

Andy:
Just a moment ago. And we have a million plays on the Cone of Shame Podcast.

Stephanie:
Stop it.

Andy:
We hit a million plays. A million people have downloaded the other podcast onto their phones, and we have about 950,000 Uncharted plays.

Stephanie:
That is amazing.

Andy:
That means we are about to hit 2 million plays between the two podcasts that Uncharted runs.

Stephanie:
All right people, listen up. Here's your job. We need 50,000 downloads. Tell your friends.

Andy:
Start sending episodes to your friends.

Stephanie:
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.

Andy:
Honestly, if you stop and think about a million people listen to that podcast, and a million people, almost, have listened to this podcast, that's incredible. I don't look at the numbers a whole lot because, I don't know, at some point you do a good job and you do what you enjoy doing and you should check the numbers enough to make sure that you're on course. But living in there and looking at numbers all the time and wondering why people listen to one thing and not other things, that's not healthy. It's like posting things on Instagram and watching the likes come in. You go, this is no way to live.

Stephanie:
Well, it's still surreal to me, A, that people listen to you and I have conversations every week.

Andy:
I know.

Stephanie:
I mean, when I think about getting to a million plays with Uncharted, they're in the back of my head. I'm like, is this just Patty listening to us and downloading every episode like a hundred times? For those of you who are new, Patty's my mom, and she was our first loyal listener.

Andy:
She was the first subscriber that we had. The first dozen plays. It all came from Patty.

Stephanie:
But seriously, there is a part of me, and it's funny, I don't think it will ever go away from me. I think it's a little… like imposter syndrome is a real thing, but every time you and I go somewhere and people are like, “Oh my gosh, I listened to the podcast”, it is a very amazing and humbling experience for me every time. But also I appreciate that because it's still… I mean, I love what we do and it really just feels like you and I having a conversation in your basement, just not, it doesn't feel like work.

Andy:
We're in your closet. Yeah.

Stephanie:
Sitting in my closet having a conversation.

Andy:
It's like you and me cuddle together in your closet, is how it feels.

Stephanie:
Oh man. Okay. I am excited about this week's episode because we have a mailbag conversation. Speaking of people giving us nice compliments, we have a mailbag conversation this week and it started off with them saying, thank you so much for what you do on the podcast.

Andy:
Which is a pro-tip. If you want to get on the podcast, if you write us and tell us that we're great at the beginning, that's probably going to get on.

Stephanie:
Shut up. No, but it's funny because I get this more than any other feedback. I get this from people and I'm always amazed at the timing. The episodes just always seem to coincide with conversations. And I've had people tell me, “You know how you always say, I'm going to wonder, are they talking about my practice”? And I say that because it's a real thing.
And I also tell people, it's funny to me how many times you and I have something that is planned because of a mailbag conversation, and when we get to recording that episode, I can see parallels in our own business, about Uncharted, or I can see parallels in our community or in my personal life. And it's amazing to me how many times we talk about something and I'm like, “Oh, I really needed to actually hear that”, as we were talking about it. And so they gave us that feedback, and so thank you for saying that. And I recognize that because it happens to us too.
But this was a mailbag conversation about a situation that is occurring in a clinic where they have an opening for a floor lead position in their practice. And so they have multiple people on the team who have expressed interest in stepping up into a larger role, into a leadership role. And they have been working on developing multiple people and mentoring multiple people within the practice to try and grow them into leadership. And so up until this point, there was no clear front-runner. They all were doing a good job and they were trying to figure out who might be the best fit for this. And so they're at the point where they have to make a decision and one person has started to stand out as, I think this would be the best fit and the person that we could coach the best to be in this role.
And they are like, okay, now that we've identified who that person is, I don't want to upset or hurt the other people who have expressed interest because they're all a part of the team. And so their ask was, how do I approach this diplomatically, both in terms of telling the person who we're going to offer the position to, but also telling the others that they are not getting the position, because it feels very different than when you hire from the outside. You can just tell anybody like, “Hey, we went with another candidate and here's why”. And they were like, it feels different when it's internal, and so how do we manage this?

Andy:
It is different when it's internal. It's very, very different.

Stephanie:
It is.

Andy:
This is really hard. And I always try to take mailbag questions where they are and go from there and not be like, if we could go back in time, how would it? I'm just going to say here, if you're thinking about something like this and you're considering having multiple people inside go towards a role, you should be really intentional, really intentional about how you communicate and what you communicate. Because it can be very, very challenging to get multiple people inside your clinic excited about a role and then give it to one of them and not the others, and have those people who didn't get it continue to feel appreciated and engaged. There's a high risk that those people are going to be angry or be embarrassed because they feel like they competed and were less than.
And again, we don't want those emotions, but I think we can all imagine how we might feel those emotions. You know what I mean? It's not hard to empathize. And so whenever we start this process, the best thing is to have a lot of thoughts about what are we going to say and how are we going to say it and how we set clear expectations before we get started. Because once you're in it can be really hard to get out.

Stephanie:
That's so funny because that was at the very top of my action item list was, if you could go back in time and do this over, here's some things to think about, just in case maybe they already thought about them and maybe they don't apply in this situation. But definitely, I have something like that at the top of my list. And also I was thinking about headspace and how do we get into headspace about this? And you just said the three things that I thought of which are like, I think it would be impossible to look at this situation and not expect that there would be emotions, because it is personal. It is personal and professional development for each person, and so there will be some sort of emotion from each person.
And the reality is that there could be hurt emotions that come up because of disappointment, anger, frustration, or just feeling unappreciated, the things that you were talking about. And so recognizing the fact that there will probably be emotions. And so from a leader perspective, I think is really important to get into the headspace of… and you said empathy is critical here, and it's important to approach the conversations when you have them with empathy because the reality is we're all human and it sucks to hear that you… I hate to use the word win, but you didn't get the thing that you wanted and that sucks. And everybody's going to process that differently.

Andy:
Well, at some point it really does feel like you wanted a thing and you went for it and someone else got it. And so it shouldn't feel like they won and you lost. But it's really hard not to feel that way.

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Andy:
So headspace, I'm with you. This is a delicate situation. I think why people take it so hard is really important to think about because that is the path to trying to manage this.

Stephanie:
Yes.

Andy:
And so the reasons that people really take it hard, I think, is they get their self-worth tied up in this idea of my value is not as high as this other person's value and that's why I did not get picked for this thing. And their self-identity, they see themselves as either the person who didn't win or they believe that they are a leader and they don't have a leadership role and that bothers them, or they see themselves as being the boss and that's now not true. And there's incongruence there between how they see themselves or how they've come to see themselves or the ideal version of themselves and what's true. So that self-identity is a problem.
There's a thing about titles, and this definitely ties into self-worth, where some people take titles really seriously. And Stephanie's laughing really hard because I rant about this a lot.

Stephanie:
That sounds familiar.

Andy:
Sounds familiar. So here's my thing, I don't care about titles. I don't. I care about the work that people do and how they treat other people. That said, I have come to understand very clearly…

Stephanie:
Painfully.

Andy:
Other people do care about titles, and it means a lot to them. So again, I think that titles, I think they interface with people's self-confidence in a big way where people are like, if I had this title, I would be confident. I think they interface with self-worth of like, I've risen to this place or I have performed at this level, or I have this internal value. But titles really matter to people and people can get tied up in them.
And the last thing is a piece of advice that my old mentor used to give me. He would always say to me, Andy, don't fall in love with the idea. And that was a bad habit that I have. I've gotten a lot better. I've gotten a lot, lot better. This is an area I think I've really grown. But I used to get an idea and just fall passionately in love with the idea. The idea that I'm going to get this job or I'm going to do this thing or I'm going to go and work at this place. And I would love that idea. And then as more facts about the opportunity came to light, I was unable to see them clearly because I had romanticized this and decided this is what I must do. And if I had not done that, I could have looked more clear-eyed and said, “Wait a second, this deal's getting worse by the minute”. You know what I mean? And I'm going to play.
And I would say I got a lot better at it. I'd like to think I got a lot better at it because I got wiser. The truth is I got beaten up a lot, I've had a lot of scars and bruises from falling in love with an idea and taking a beating that I could have avoided had I been less emotionally attached and more clear-eyed about what I was walking into. And that's just a life lesson. But I do think a lot of times when you have things like this, people can fall in love with the idea.
It's funny, you can take people who didn't give a crap about being the team lead and talk to them about their potential and the opportunity that's there and you can get them to fall in love with it and be devastated about a thing that they never thought about before and didn't even really want when you first told them about it.

Stephanie:
Yes, yes.

Andy:
But people can come to love this, and then it really is this sort of emotional letdown, breakup sort of thing. So those are all the big things for me when we talk about this really is delicate. We need to empathize.
The second part of headspace for me that I really want to get into, is this idea that I just want to call out. I don't know if this is true here, but a lot of us crystallize roles and jobs in our mind, which means we had a head front desk person, her name was Stephanie, and she was amazing and these were all the things that she did. And now Stephanie has left, she's gone onto other places, she took a job with the CIA, she's undercover in Russia. She's doing things that I'm not allowed to talk about anymore. But just trust me when I say, wow, okay.
So Stephanie has gone on, she's no longer the lead of the front desk, she's doing these other things. Well, there is this innate bias, it's just this bias that we have that I need to find a replacement for Stephanie. That's what I need, is a replacement for Stephanie.

Stephanie:
Yes, yes.

Andy:
And it comes from this desire that we have to keep control and to keep consistency. And so we're like, “I need a clone of Stephanie to step into Stephanie's role”. And I see so many practices do that. They're like, “This is the role, we made it for this person, that person is no longer here. And so we're going to take someone who's not that person and we're going to shoehorn them into the role that we created for someone else”. And we're going to wonder why they're never as good as Stephanie was. And I just want to call that out up front and say, just because you have had one team lead in the past, or just because this was the job description of the team lead in the past, that does not necessarily mean that you need to have one team lead or that the team lead job description that you had for the last person needs to be what you applied to the new person.
It is a hundred percent, in bounds, legal and possible for you to look at the people that you were grooming and think about what a new system might look like that leverages the talent that you have. Because I guarantee you the three people you're looking at, they're not all the same. They have different strengths and they probably have different interests, and it may be possible to put all of them into positions to really shine. And this is just something that I have done again and again and again in my career. And you can see how this links up with my not caring that much about titles. Because I don't really care about titles. I really care about people kicking butt and taking names.
And so I'm much more open to say, you know what? We don't have a team lead in this case, we have co-leads and they have different responsibilities based on their strengths and interests, and this is how our co-leads function. And it's not as clean as saying this is the job description and a job description is always going to be, however, if you are able to manage it and willing to manage it, I do think this is a path to really grow people. And it's also going to let people really shine with their own strengths.
The downside is it means that your team is going to change because the team lead doesn't mean what it meant a year ago, it's a different position now and you're going to have to get people along and on board. So it takes more finesse and team leadership to have this. But the upsides to it is you can really engage more people and you can engage people specifically in the ways that they shine. And if you set people up so they're doing things that they like to do and that they do well at, they tend to stick around and they tend to continue to grow.
So anyway, I'm not saying that's what should happen, but I'm saying don't get caught in the crystallized idea that there's a glass slipper that the last person wore and I need someone else who can fit this exact glass slipper.

Stephanie:
I agree with you. And my thoughts on that piece have to do with the action plan, for sure.

Andy:
Okay. And the last thing I'm just going to say is, if you can, as much as you can, and this is hard, but as much as you can, start with the end in mind. What does this successful job applicant look like? What do they look like when they are installed into the role and they are comfortable and onboarded and when they are thriving in the role, what does that look like?

Stephanie:
Yes.

Andy:
Because if you know what that looks like, one, it will help you making your selection of candidates. But two… so it'll help you making your selection candidates, it will help you with your interview process because you know a lot more clearly what you're looking for and what's going to be important.
And then the last part is it's going to help you with your onboarding and training because you're going to say, I see who this person is and I also see the idealized version of the role. And now I can take the delta between those two things, break it up into steps and make a training program that makes sense, where I can intentionally get this person from where he is to where I want him to be. And I can put it on the calendar so I don't feel overwhelmed, but I can march this person from point A to point B, which is up and fully functioning, I can do that in a very intentional way. But in order to do that, you have to know what done looks like, what the outcome you want looks like. And I'll be honest and say, it's often really hard to do that. Do your best.

Stephanie:
How about we take a break because you're speaking my nerd language here and I want to talk about if we could rewind history, where do we start? Because what you were just talking about ties to my first action step thought, which has to do with job descriptions. Do you want to take a quick break and then come back and talk about action steps?

Andy:
Yeah, yeah. Let's take a break and then we'll do action steps. We'll do action steps, if we could go back in time, we'll do action steps for…

Stephanie:
How do we actually do the thing, how do we have the conversation?

Andy:
How do we do the thing, and then what I'd like, I got a little bit on how do we take the person who we chose and get them plugged in the best way possible as well. So we got three different sort of clumps of action steps. So let's take a break and let's get back and get into it.

Stephanie:
Sounds good.
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That is happening. We also are just a few short weeks away from our April live event conference in Greenville, South Carolina. If you have been thinking about coming to join us for an event, this one would be the one to come and join us for. I am super, super excited to see everybody. It is happening April 20th through the 22nd in Greenville, and there's still time for you to sign up. Plus more. We've got tons of workshops coming this spring and you can find all of it at unchartedvet.com/events. And now, back to the podcast.
So I'm biting my tongue, sitting on my hands to not jump into the action steps the last 10 minutes because I was like, there's not a lot of head space here for me beyond the emotions. So if we could rewind and go back in time and say, this is our imaginary practice, how do we set ourselves up for success, action stepwise?
The first thing for me has to do with some of you were just talking about, about the clarity. And for me it is about the end in mind. What is the actual job description? And sometimes, like you were talking about in the earlier part of the episode, when you have a shift, when you have a change and Stephanie, the lead CSR, goes to work for the CIA and is now doing top secret things in Russia, when that happens, what is the role? What is the job? Is the job Stephanie was doing, the job that Stephanie was doing because it played to her strengths, or is it the job that we actually needed being done?
And so for me, the first step is what is the actual job description? What do we need to have happen? And this can be an opportunity to redefine and shake things up. And we experienced that as a team where we had someone who was doing a job and they did their job really, really well. And when they left the team, it gave us a good opportunity to say, do we need to keep doing the job the excellent way that this person was doing their job, or do we have a growth opportunity here and are there things that we also need done that would be better suited to a different candidate? And let's look at the candidates and evaluate the job that we think that we need now compared to the candidates, versus trying to find someone to fill that person's shoes.

Andy:
Thank you for saying that, because I think that's exactly true. That hire was really, really hard. And it was really, really hard, and it was because… and this steps back to before the break when I was talking about trying to see the end in mind. I really, really tried hard to see the end in mind, and so what I really looked at then is we had this really high-performing awesome rockstar who had another opportunity and they needed to take it, and they did need to take it. And so they went on, and so we had this hole, and I will tell you my immediate knee-jerk reaction was, we need to fill that hole.
But as I sat with it, I really pushed myself and said, okay, stop. Let's look at what all this person was doing and then let's look at what else we want to do as a company and other opportunities that we have and let's lay them all on the table. And so I would say, before you make the job description, you should come up with all the things you want to accomplish. And then those things are what make up the job description. Because I think if you just say, we're starting with a job description of what the last person had, you've already boxed yourself into the past in some way. And it may be a hundred percent that you say, nope, we don't have anything else that we want to do and this is what we need to do and this is just the job. But you should at least have that check.
So for us, we were growing rapidly and it became apparent that I could either try to find someone who had the same skillsets as this other person, who honestly was a unicorn. It was a unicorn to find another person who had this exact skillsets. Or I could say, let's step back and look at what we're trying to accomplish and how our company is growing. And it might be that we're going to add these new things into the mix and shift them around and we're going to have two new jobs.

Stephanie:
Right.

Andy:
You know what I mean? And they're each going to be part of what the other person did plus new things. And that's ultimately what we end up doing, and it really opened up our ability to hire other people, to bring people in, stuff like that. But that was very challenging to try to get my head around and lay out. But ultimately, it was so worth the effort of getting out of my head about what it meant to have that job and say, let's stop about what the job is, let's talk about what we need and then figure out how to take those needs and turn them into jobs. And we ended up making two jobs, but it worked really, really well. And I have been so happy with the people that we brought on and they have really flourished, and I feel like we got people into places where their strengths are really on display. But yeah, I completely agree with you going back in time and laying these things out.

Stephanie:
And I think in our experience as a company, the person who was on our team, they had strengths in editing and journalism, and at the time that they joined the team, that was the strength and the skillset that we needed. And then they grew and took on other stretch roles and started doing other things because they could do it and because we needed those holes filled, that doesn't mean that that was what the job meant to be. And so in that process of evaluating it, we also had the opportunity to look at their feedback of, hey, these are the things that are problematic and that maybe we could, when we look at it in depth, say, oh, hey, we want to go in this place, in this direction as a company, and here's an opportunity to use this feedback and say, “Oh, well, we were filling this role in this way because this person had a skillset”.

Andy:
Sure.

Stephanie:
But we could open our minds, and to your point, maybe we have two jobs. Maybe we still need somebody who has editorial talent, maybe we also need somebody who can do business pieces, because that was part of the stretch role. They went together because somebody stepped up and said, “I'll do the thing”. I've been in that role and I'll talk about myself as head CSR, Stephanie. I love teaching. It was a huge passion for me. And so when I was at the front desk, I did a lot of educational stuff for our clients, and I was in charge of, not really the marketing piece, but I created our bulletin board displays in the lobby for all of our marketing months and wrote client education pieces for our newsletter. Does my lead CSR need to do all of that? No.
We made that a portion of my job because I loved it and I was passionate about it, but at the end of the day, do I need the person in that specific role to fill that hole? I don't. Somebody else from the team might step up, or maybe we decide that we don't need to keep doing it because it's not as important of a part of our business as it once was. But it is an opportunity to look at all of those things through a clear lens, versus through the lens in the moment of this is the path, these are the decisions we made and why we made them, and look at it from a fresh perspective.
And so I think if I could have a magic wand and rewind time for this clinic, I would say, what is it that you actually need? What is the job? And the reason that I start with the job description, what is it that this role is actually going to be, has to do with all of the things we just talked about. But it also, for me, has to do with helping make the decision because the details of what we're looking for and why we're looking for it really matter.

Andy:
Yes.

Stephanie:
And that can help you with avoiding discrimination and biases in the selection process. And so if you don't already have a job description, if you're just like, well, we know we need somebody to lead, but you don't have a clear idea of what that actually means and the job that they're going to be asked to do, you have to start there.

Andy:
Yeah, I do agree with that. I think that that's really important as far as giving people opportunities and getting candidates that aren't the candidates you immediately think of a chance to shine. I think that's really important. We definitely have to get there.
I think you kind of reminded me of it. Think about all the jobs that you've had that started out as a clear job, and then they just metastasized as people were like, “Hey, we need somebody to run the snack room”, and “Hey, does anybody know how to do this thing with the graphic design software”? And you're like, “I mean, I can do it”. And so now you've got this strange accounting/HR/public relations job. Let's be honest about how people's jobs happen.

Stephanie:
Yes.

Andy:
It wasn't that strategic when you built it.

Stephanie:
No.

Andy:
And to now act like, this is what it has to be. I'm like, you have the weirdest hodgepodge of jobs stuffed together. And it's because that's what Stephanie who went to Russia could do. Those were her skills. And so again, chop that stuff up and reorganize it, but then to your point, it needs to go into a clear job description. I completely agree with that, and I hope it was clear when I was saying first start with what do we need to happen? And then take that into that description. But you're right, you need to get in that job description. Yes.

Stephanie:
Okay. Is there anything else, if we could rewind time, the job description piece of it was the big piece of it for me. There's one other piece. I think the other piece besides the job… if I could rewind time and maybe this clinic already did this, but when you're going to do an internal, I have made this mistake very painfully, which is why I'm going to talk about it. When you're going to do an internal promote potential situation, it is very important to have a process and guidelines for what you're going to do and how you're going to do it, and make that known to everyone involved. The candidates should have expectations for what the process is, how are they going to be evaluated, how are they going to be measured, what you're looking for. And that's why that job description is so important.
But I have made that mistake very painfully and emotionally of we know we need somebody to step into this leadership role, but we're not really clear what we're looking for. We know we want them to be able to have this skillset and this skillset, but beyond that, it could be really flexible. Going in the direction of creating the role for the person versus what is the actual role that we want, creates challenges in particular when you're internally promoting.
And so I think if I could rewind time, I would say make sure that you have a plan and that you're communicating that plan to the candidate so that they know we're going to have initial interviews and this is what we're going to talk about and this is what we're going to look at. And then we're going to do whatever comes next. Are they going to shadow you for a day because they're looking at management versus not having… whatever that looks like. What is your process, so that they know. And then what is the expectation about how you're going to make your decisions and what they can expect in terms of a timeline and a process and all of those things.

Andy:
Yeah, I have that in my, where do we go from here steps. But your point about laying those expectations down before you get started, I think you're absolutely right. I think you're absolutely right. And so when we shift into, where do we go from here, I'm going to go back across that area in a very similar way, but it all works much better if you set the expectations up front. I really like that.

Stephanie:
Anything else for you, if you could rewind time?

Andy:
No, I mean, if I could turn back time… I'm a Cher fan, as Stephanie Goss knows. I may not be as big a Cher fan as Stephanie Goss likes to believe that I am. Or I might be a bigger one.

Stephanie:
Or you might be a bigger one. I might get videos of Andy dancing to Cher in the supermarket.

Andy:
Oh, they play…

Stephanie:
He's got some hype music happening and there are videos that happen.

Andy:
I think of you, when I'm at the grocery store and I'm in Publix and Cher is on, first of all, the music of Publix is banging. I could go just drive around the Publix shopping center and listen to their soundtrack all day. But If I Could Turn Back Time was on the radio, and sent Stephanie a little video of me singing and then using a sausage as a microphone, and I sent it to her. Anyway. All right.

Stephanie:
Straight track.

Andy:
Okay. If I could turn back time, I would… I think I'd be good. I think we got it. All right. Cool. So let's talk about where we go from here. So we've got this thing, and now we come to the actual question that we were asked.

Stephanie:
We've just talked for a half hour about…

Andy:
At the 30-minute mark, we're in this, and now we come to the question, which is, what do we do here? The big thing is clear is kind. Clear is kind. Say it, be empathetic, be kind. Yes. Be empathetic, be kind, be supportive, go slow. But most of all, be clear and honest and just let them know what is happening. And let them know why it's happening. But the first thing you need to say is when the decision is made, you need to talk to the other candidates first because you don't want them to find it out from somewhere else.

Stephanie:
Thank you. Yes.

Andy:
You need to bring them in and you need to tell them this is the decision that has been made, and start with that.

Stephanie:
Yep, I agree. So step one for me was make a plan, because everybody has to hear about it at the same time, or you're going to open yourself up for gossip and drama in your practice. So you can't tell the person who is getting the job and then wait a week to talk to the other people. That kind of gap creates drama that you want to avoid at all costs. So there has to be a plan and everybody has to hear it, to your point, clear is kind. But hear it in the same timing.

Andy:
Yep. I would say…

Stephanie:
Oh, go ahead.

Andy:
No, I was going to say, so in that conversation, clear is kind. You always say give people space to be human, and I always like that phrase a lot. There's probably going to be tears and there's probably going to be people who are very upset, and I want to be supported. Of course there is, because it's funny, even people who didn't really want it that much when they hear that they didn't get it hits like a hammer.

Stephanie:
Yes.

Andy:
It hits you in the chest and it's hard. It's really hard. And so just recognize and expect that that's probably what's going to happen. I would not expect to have a huge conversation with people because if they just got bad news, they probably don't want to sit and talk to you a whole lot. So give them space to be human. Let them know, tell them what was great that they did and what they do. Tell them that you want to keep them at the practice and you think there's going to be other opportunities for them, and only say it if it's true. But there's other opportunities and there's ways that we want to continue to work and grow with you. And tell them that if and when they're ready, if they would like to review the application and talk about what they did well and where they could grow for a leadership role, that you are open to doing that.
And I would not try to have that feedback conversation at the same time I broke the news to them. I would be ready to have it, but I would try not to have it. I would try to tell them that… clear is kind, tell them what happened, give them some time to process it. Tell them that they had plenty of strengths. Let them know that you want them to continue to stay and that you think that they can continue to develop in your practice and you want to try to make that happen. And then tell them that when they're ready, you can go through the evaluation of the interview process and you'd be happy to give them feedback on their interview. And then I would be done.

Stephanie:
Okay. I agree with that. It's funny, it's like you and I have worked together for six years at this point, because my next step was, do it face-to-face and let them be human. Because here's the thing, you're not wrong, there are going to be emotions. And there have been times where, to your point, I fell in love with an idea, and when I stepped back, I wasn't actually in love with the idea. But I still was massively disappointed when the thing didn't come to fruition. And with hindsight, was able to see, oh, okay, I didn't actually want this anyways, I just fell in love with the idea. But in the moment, there was frustration and tears and disappointment, and give them the space to be human.
And I think as a manager, the other piece that I will tack onto that is, when people are being human, you need to be able to control your emotions because it is very easy in this conversation as a leader, to over empathize. And I am one of those people where I am a reactionary puker, but I'm also a reactionary crier. And so if someone starts crying, I have to actively work to not… it is a physical response, and I have to actively work to overcome that. And so if you are someone who tends to get sucked into emotions, and/or, if you are a leader and you're in the position of telling somebody that you have a friendship with or a closer relationship with that they didn't get the job, you were going to have to work extra hard to be human, but not too human. Because it can be really easy to fall into the commiseration trap and over empathize and say things or do things that you might not want to say.

Andy:
Sure. Yeah. And I think related that too, I think you should be upfront about the decision. There's the people who try to soften the blow, and so they dance all around. It's like, no, just…

Stephanie:
Nope, just say it. Rip the bandaid.

Andy:
Just tell them. Yeah, just rip the bandaid off and just kindly tell them.

Stephanie:
Kindly, and clear is kind.

Andy:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Empathetic and kindly too. I mean, you can do both of those things. You can be upfront and clear and kind about what the decision was.

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Andy:
No, I think that's true. It is funny, to your point, I have literally told people, “You did not want this job. This was not… I know you applied for this, you would not have…”

Stephanie:
I believe you've actually told me that.

Andy:
Yeah. I think I've told you. I've done it more than once. And again, you have to be careful with that too, because I'm not trying to be condescending and say, I know better than you. But in another way, sometimes there are people and you say, “You are a beautiful dolphin. You don't want this job that involves climbing trees. You don't want it. You're not going to like it. You're not going to be good at it. But you have such a beautiful, wonderful set of skills”. It's not a personal thing. It's not a self-worth thing. It's a, this is not a good fit for you, I don't think.

Stephanie:
So I love your point about keeping it short. There are some people who are self-aware and could have the step two of that conversation in the context of the same conversation. There are some people who would be like, “Okay, I'm bummed”, but you might have somebody on your team who then would say, “Can you tell me what I could have done differently”? Or ask for the feedback. There are people who are self-aware. So being prepared to have that conversation is really important. And I would prep for that ahead of the conversation so that if it does go there, great. But also recognizing people need to be human, and sometimes people need to process.
And so for me, I love this piece of it, and I think it's so important because developmentally we want to talk to them about why we considered them in the first place. And that's your point about the dolphin. What are those things that made them stand out? Why did you consider them? What is the positive? What are the things that they're great at? What are their skillsets? And then what are the areas of opportunity for them for growth? It has nothing to do with you're not doing this well or you're not doing it right. Sometimes it's, you haven't had any experience with supervisory positions before, and one of the other candidates on the team did, and so we need somebody who has some supervisory capacity. And so while I think you could do great in this role, right now, that was the edge. And so then it becomes a developmental conversation about here's a piece that was needed, here are things you could do to gain experience in that area without stepping into this role. And then it becomes about what they can do to grow and develop themselves.
And I think your part about asking a dolphin to… They didn't really want a job that involved climbing trees because don't ask a dolphin to climb a tree. I want to ask them what they want and why they wanted it. Tell me why you thought you wanted that job. Because ultimately, they may not be disappointed. The reason for their disappointment or sadness or frustration or anger at not getting the job might have nothing to do with the job itself. It may be they wanted the job because it came with a pay increase and that they're in a situation where they need to increase their pay or they might have to leave the practice.
That's a completely different conversation, developmentally, than you didn't get this job. If I know that as a manager, I might still be able to help in that situation. And so part two for me is, what do they want and why did they want it? Because the developmental plan is going to be most successful when it's coming from them. And so if they tell me they want to be a leader, or they tell me they want to be in a position that has different hours because their current schedule is a big conflict for picking their kid up at daycare. That's a completely different conversation than the conversation about they're disappointed because they desperately wanted this specific job for these specific reasons.
And I think being prepared to have that conversation and evolve it into who are they as a person, what do they do really well, where are the opportunities for them to continue to grow, and what does a plan for them to move forward look like for you. And I love that you said, let them know what the future potential is. You want to make sure you're not setting a developmental plan that has false hope or false promises. So it's like, hey, look, there are opportunities for you and let's work on these things. But be very careful to… I've watched managers make this mistake where it's, “Oh, the next time we have a promotion, you're next in line”. Don't say that.

Andy:
Yeah, don't say that. Yeah.

Stephanie:
Because things could change. And so finding out what they want and why they want it.

Andy:
Well, I know why people say that, right? They're trying to cushion the blow.

Stephanie:
Yes.

Andy:
And they're like, “Oh, but you're next”.

Stephanie:
Absolutely.

Andy:
And then the world changes, and then you are going to regret having said that, so yeah, that's exactly the stuff that I have learned. The other reason I think that these conversations can be so hard, and this is kind of a little bit of a paradigm shift, but I think a lot of people really want these jobs, even though when you actually get into what is the job, they're like, “I don't want to do any of that”.
But it's because there's such limited upward mobility in so many parts of the practice where there's a lot of people who believe. And in a lot of practices, it's true that the only step upward, as far as development, responsibility, compensation for the CSR is the lead CSR job. And you say, “But you would hate it”. And they would say, “But it's the only developmental opportunity, pay bump, chance to do something different that I am going to have here. And if I don't get it and someone else gets it, then the clock on me being able to do something different to make any sort of an upward move just resets”.
And I think that that's really sad, it goes all the way back around to my beginning statement when I just said, just because this is the way we've always done it in the past, doesn't mean it's the way we have to do it now. I really am a big fan of trying to figure out lots of different developmental opportunities. Maybe they're smaller, but they're more spread out so more people can get them. I think as a profession, we need to continue to work to not put such a hard ceiling on the opportunities for development for people, so when there's one job that's a bad fit for them opens up, they feel like they desperately need to get it. And I go, that's not good. So anyway.

Stephanie:
Absolutely. I love that you said that. That is a huge passion soapbox for me. The ability to create outward opportunity and not just upward opportunity is so important, and I think that it's a trick we miss. And to your point, if you really step back and think about it, there are probably at least a dozen, if not a hundred, different things in your practice that could be areas of opportunity of ownership for someone. It doesn't have to be about a title, doesn't have to be about positional power. For most people, development is about ownership and about growth, and there are endless opportunities for that. And it is something that we over overlook. And so I love that you brought that up.

Andy:
Yeah. So let's talk real quick about, we've made this selection, let's talk about setting the person we selected up for success. Can we do that?

Stephanie:
Okay. Yep.

Andy:
So got just got three quick ones, because I do think this is important. I have seen a number of times people make a promotion like this or make a hire like this, and they're like, great, you're the one, good luck. By the way, there's a couple really angry people you're going to be working with.

Stephanie:
Right. Now you have to supervise.

Andy:
I wouldn't leave my lunch unsupervised. They say something like that, and then they let them go. And I go, that's terrible. So you picked your person, obviously you should do the things that we recommended as far as breaking the news to the other people. After that, make sure you have a good onboarding program to get this person up to being the person that you imagined them being. Remember, when we imagined what a fully functional person in this role, well-supported, well-trained looks like? What was that? And then what are the steps we need to take to get them to that place? And that's your training program. That's your onboarding program.
So make sure that you've got an intentional way of getting this person up and going, because one thing that you don't want is to have a couple people in your organization all go for a job and one person gets it, and then they struggle in that role because that opens the door up to criticism, I told you so. Why did that person get it and I didn't get it? You want them to hit the ground running and start to make some strides, and you want them to get wins under their belt very quickly. Because often that will put this issue behind you, and so make sure that you have a plan to onboard them and to get them some wins under their belt.
So that's the first part for me, show full support of this person. So it sounds like with our mailbag writer, there were a number of different stakeholders in the decision who all sort of came together about who they were going to choose. There is no mixed decisions anymore. Once that decision is made, all the stakeholders need to get on board and get united and get behind this person and support this person in that role.

Stephanie:
Yes. We can't be behind the scenes, well, I didn't agree with it, but we made a decision anyways.

Andy:
I've seen that. I know you've seen that.

Stephanie:
Yep. You're just separating them.

Andy:
Yeah, exactly right. You're making this worse and it will fester, and nope, everybody needs to come together behind this person as they pick up some wins. And then the last thing is you need to own your role in any tension. And so if there's some resentment, if there's tension, do not put it on the new person that you elevated to figure it out. You were there, you ran the interviews, you did these things. You need to own the fact that you may have had a role in creating any sort of tension or competitiveness, and you need to take a lot of responsibility in resolving that and getting things back to normal. It's just amazing how many times I've seen people be like, well, that was messy. Well, we've made the decision. Let's see how he does. And then they wash their hands. And I'm like, that's not okay.
And again, at this point, this is all about stabilizing the ship now and making everybody just accept what has happened and understand that there's no going back and this is not a wishy-washy decision that might change. Nope, we're in this, this is where we're going. And the people who were involved in running the process need to own any tension that comes from it and try to protect the new person from having to deal with that tension. Because again, the thing that will make this most in the rearview mirror is that person having success and starting to move forward and move the practice forward.

Stephanie:
Yeah, I love it. Oh man, this was fun.

Andy:
This was a good one. This was super fun.

Stephanie:
I think that's it. You got anything else?

Andy:
No, that that's all I brought.

Stephanie:
Oh, man. I hope this was helpful, maybe, to our mailbag writer, or to some of you facing this kind of decision. Have a great week, everybody.

Andy:
Have a great week, everybody.

Stephanie:
I was like, is there anything else? Nope, that's it. Have a great week. Take care of yourself, gang.

Andy:
All right. See you everybody.

Stephanie:
Bye.

Written by Dustin Bays · Categorized: Blog, Podcast · Tagged: hiring, management

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