This week on the podcast…
This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss are in the mailbag to tackle a question about what to do when you are hiring from within the team for a promotion. You might be thinking “this doesn't sound like a problem!?!?” Well, the challenge for this practice lies in the details. They had multiple team members who threw their name in to the ring for the job and they have chosen the one who they feel is the best fit. Which means it is time to let the one who was chosen know AND let the ones who were not chosen know what that means for them. This is a fantastic letter with great questions that we had a lot of fun discussing. Let's get into this…
You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.
Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to role-play on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag!
We want to hear about your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.
Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
Upcoming Events
April 8: Neurodiversity – Tapping Into Superpowers with Ron Sosa
May 24: Trending Technology in the Veterinary Space with Jen Quammen
Episode Transcript
Stephanie:
Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast.
This week on the podcast, Andy and I are headed back to the mail bag. We got a great question this week from a hospital who is getting ready to promote a lead CSR from within their team. You might be thinking, Stephanie, this doesn't sound like a problem, this sounds like a great solution. In fact, it is. It also creates some problems because this practice had multiple team members who are interested in the position, had some qualifications and stepped forward to say, I would like to throw my name into the ring. So this practice looked at everybody, they did their interview process, and now they have chosen their candidate who they think would be the best fit for the job, and they are wondering how do we go about setting this person up for success, and how do we go about telling the people who don't get the job that they're not getting it and keep the peace? Great set of questions. Super excited to dive into this one. Let's get into it, shall we?
Speaker 2:
And now the Uncharted podcast.
Andy:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie, you're the one that I want, ooh, ooh, ooh. Goss.
Stephanie:
Oh.
Andy:
I think I nailed that. I think I nailed that one.
Stephanie:
You did nail that. That was great. I'm still irritated with you, but that was great.
Andy:
That was so funny. I did The old, we're not…
Stephanie:
Are you ready? Yes, I'm ready.
Andy:
Are we ready?
Stephanie:
No, I'm not actually ready.
Andy:
Let's go. It was a hundred percent that. Yeah.
Stephanie:
Oh, you're killing me. How's it going?
Andy:
Oh man, it's good. It is really good. It's really, really, really good. Guess what?
Stephanie:
Are you trying to convince yourself that it's really good, because that's what that sounds like?
Andy:
No. Something wonderful is settling in my brain. I was looking at our podcast numbers.
Stephanie:
Oh yeah?
Andy:
Just a moment ago. And we have a million plays on the Cone of Shame Podcast.
Stephanie:
Stop it.
Andy:
We hit a million plays. A million people have downloaded the other podcast onto their phones, and we have about 950,000 Uncharted plays.
Stephanie:
That is amazing.
Andy:
That means we are about to hit 2 million plays between the two podcasts that Uncharted runs.
Stephanie:
All right people, listen up. Here's your job. We need 50,000 downloads. Tell your friends.
Andy:
Start sending episodes to your friends.
Stephanie:
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
Andy:
Honestly, if you stop and think about a million people listen to that podcast, and a million people, almost, have listened to this podcast, that's incredible. I don't look at the numbers a whole lot because, I don't know, at some point you do a good job and you do what you enjoy doing and you should check the numbers enough to make sure that you're on course. But living in there and looking at numbers all the time and wondering why people listen to one thing and not other things, that's not healthy. It's like posting things on Instagram and watching the likes come in. You go, this is no way to live.
Stephanie:
Well, it's still surreal to me, A, that people listen to you and I have conversations every week.
Andy:
I know.
Stephanie:
I mean, when I think about getting to a million plays with Uncharted, they're in the back of my head. I'm like, is this just Patty listening to us and downloading every episode like a hundred times? For those of you who are new, Patty's my mom, and she was our first loyal listener.
Andy:
She was the first subscriber that we had. The first dozen plays. It all came from Patty.
Stephanie:
But seriously, there is a part of me, and it's funny, I don't think it will ever go away from me. I think it's a little… like imposter syndrome is a real thing, but every time you and I go somewhere and people are like, “Oh my gosh, I listened to the podcast”, it is a very amazing and humbling experience for me every time. But also I appreciate that because it's still… I mean, I love what we do and it really just feels like you and I having a conversation in your basement, just not, it doesn't feel like work.
Andy:
We're in your closet. Yeah.
Stephanie:
Sitting in my closet having a conversation.
Andy:
It's like you and me cuddle together in your closet, is how it feels.
Stephanie:
Oh man. Okay. I am excited about this week's episode because we have a mailbag conversation. Speaking of people giving us nice compliments, we have a mailbag conversation this week and it started off with them saying, thank you so much for what you do on the podcast.
Andy:
Which is a pro-tip. If you want to get on the podcast, if you write us and tell us that we're great at the beginning, that's probably going to get on.
Stephanie:
Shut up. No, but it's funny because I get this more than any other feedback. I get this from people and I'm always amazed at the timing. The episodes just always seem to coincide with conversations. And I've had people tell me, “You know how you always say, I'm going to wonder, are they talking about my practice”? And I say that because it's a real thing.
And I also tell people, it's funny to me how many times you and I have something that is planned because of a mailbag conversation, and when we get to recording that episode, I can see parallels in our own business, about Uncharted, or I can see parallels in our community or in my personal life. And it's amazing to me how many times we talk about something and I'm like, “Oh, I really needed to actually hear that”, as we were talking about it. And so they gave us that feedback, and so thank you for saying that. And I recognize that because it happens to us too.
But this was a mailbag conversation about a situation that is occurring in a clinic where they have an opening for a floor lead position in their practice. And so they have multiple people on the team who have expressed interest in stepping up into a larger role, into a leadership role. And they have been working on developing multiple people and mentoring multiple people within the practice to try and grow them into leadership. And so up until this point, there was no clear front-runner. They all were doing a good job and they were trying to figure out who might be the best fit for this. And so they're at the point where they have to make a decision and one person has started to stand out as, I think this would be the best fit and the person that we could coach the best to be in this role.
And they are like, okay, now that we've identified who that person is, I don't want to upset or hurt the other people who have expressed interest because they're all a part of the team. And so their ask was, how do I approach this diplomatically, both in terms of telling the person who we're going to offer the position to, but also telling the others that they are not getting the position, because it feels very different than when you hire from the outside. You can just tell anybody like, “Hey, we went with another candidate and here's why”. And they were like, it feels different when it's internal, and so how do we manage this?
Andy:
It is different when it's internal. It's very, very different.
Stephanie:
It is.
Andy:
This is really hard. And I always try to take mailbag questions where they are and go from there and not be like, if we could go back in time, how would it? I'm just going to say here, if you're thinking about something like this and you're considering having multiple people inside go towards a role, you should be really intentional, really intentional about how you communicate and what you communicate. Because it can be very, very challenging to get multiple people inside your clinic excited about a role and then give it to one of them and not the others, and have those people who didn't get it continue to feel appreciated and engaged. There's a high risk that those people are going to be angry or be embarrassed because they feel like they competed and were less than.
And again, we don't want those emotions, but I think we can all imagine how we might feel those emotions. You know what I mean? It's not hard to empathize. And so whenever we start this process, the best thing is to have a lot of thoughts about what are we going to say and how are we going to say it and how we set clear expectations before we get started. Because once you're in it can be really hard to get out.
Stephanie:
That's so funny because that was at the very top of my action item list was, if you could go back in time and do this over, here's some things to think about, just in case maybe they already thought about them and maybe they don't apply in this situation. But definitely, I have something like that at the top of my list. And also I was thinking about headspace and how do we get into headspace about this? And you just said the three things that I thought of which are like, I think it would be impossible to look at this situation and not expect that there would be emotions, because it is personal. It is personal and professional development for each person, and so there will be some sort of emotion from each person.
And the reality is that there could be hurt emotions that come up because of disappointment, anger, frustration, or just feeling unappreciated, the things that you were talking about. And so recognizing the fact that there will probably be emotions. And so from a leader perspective, I think is really important to get into the headspace of… and you said empathy is critical here, and it's important to approach the conversations when you have them with empathy because the reality is we're all human and it sucks to hear that you… I hate to use the word win, but you didn't get the thing that you wanted and that sucks. And everybody's going to process that differently.
Andy:
Well, at some point it really does feel like you wanted a thing and you went for it and someone else got it. And so it shouldn't feel like they won and you lost. But it's really hard not to feel that way.
Stephanie:
Yeah.
Andy:
So headspace, I'm with you. This is a delicate situation. I think why people take it so hard is really important to think about because that is the path to trying to manage this.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
And so the reasons that people really take it hard, I think, is they get their self-worth tied up in this idea of my value is not as high as this other person's value and that's why I did not get picked for this thing. And their self-identity, they see themselves as either the person who didn't win or they believe that they are a leader and they don't have a leadership role and that bothers them, or they see themselves as being the boss and that's now not true. And there's incongruence there between how they see themselves or how they've come to see themselves or the ideal version of themselves and what's true. So that self-identity is a problem.
There's a thing about titles, and this definitely ties into self-worth, where some people take titles really seriously. And Stephanie's laughing really hard because I rant about this a lot.
Stephanie:
That sounds familiar.
Andy:
Sounds familiar. So here's my thing, I don't care about titles. I don't. I care about the work that people do and how they treat other people. That said, I have come to understand very clearly…
Stephanie:
Painfully.
Andy:
Other people do care about titles, and it means a lot to them. So again, I think that titles, I think they interface with people's self-confidence in a big way where people are like, if I had this title, I would be confident. I think they interface with self-worth of like, I've risen to this place or I have performed at this level, or I have this internal value. But titles really matter to people and people can get tied up in them.
And the last thing is a piece of advice that my old mentor used to give me. He would always say to me, Andy, don't fall in love with the idea. And that was a bad habit that I have. I've gotten a lot better. I've gotten a lot, lot better. This is an area I think I've really grown. But I used to get an idea and just fall passionately in love with the idea. The idea that I'm going to get this job or I'm going to do this thing or I'm going to go and work at this place. And I would love that idea. And then as more facts about the opportunity came to light, I was unable to see them clearly because I had romanticized this and decided this is what I must do. And if I had not done that, I could have looked more clear-eyed and said, “Wait a second, this deal's getting worse by the minute”. You know what I mean? And I'm going to play.
And I would say I got a lot better at it. I'd like to think I got a lot better at it because I got wiser. The truth is I got beaten up a lot, I've had a lot of scars and bruises from falling in love with an idea and taking a beating that I could have avoided had I been less emotionally attached and more clear-eyed about what I was walking into. And that's just a life lesson. But I do think a lot of times when you have things like this, people can fall in love with the idea.
It's funny, you can take people who didn't give a crap about being the team lead and talk to them about their potential and the opportunity that's there and you can get them to fall in love with it and be devastated about a thing that they never thought about before and didn't even really want when you first told them about it.
Stephanie:
Yes, yes.
Andy:
But people can come to love this, and then it really is this sort of emotional letdown, breakup sort of thing. So those are all the big things for me when we talk about this really is delicate. We need to empathize.
The second part of headspace for me that I really want to get into, is this idea that I just want to call out. I don't know if this is true here, but a lot of us crystallize roles and jobs in our mind, which means we had a head front desk person, her name was Stephanie, and she was amazing and these were all the things that she did. And now Stephanie has left, she's gone onto other places, she took a job with the CIA, she's undercover in Russia. She's doing things that I'm not allowed to talk about anymore. But just trust me when I say, wow, okay.
So Stephanie has gone on, she's no longer the lead of the front desk, she's doing these other things. Well, there is this innate bias, it's just this bias that we have that I need to find a replacement for Stephanie. That's what I need, is a replacement for Stephanie.
Stephanie:
Yes, yes.
Andy:
And it comes from this desire that we have to keep control and to keep consistency. And so we're like, “I need a clone of Stephanie to step into Stephanie's role”. And I see so many practices do that. They're like, “This is the role, we made it for this person, that person is no longer here. And so we're going to take someone who's not that person and we're going to shoehorn them into the role that we created for someone else”. And we're going to wonder why they're never as good as Stephanie was. And I just want to call that out up front and say, just because you have had one team lead in the past, or just because this was the job description of the team lead in the past, that does not necessarily mean that you need to have one team lead or that the team lead job description that you had for the last person needs to be what you applied to the new person.
It is a hundred percent, in bounds, legal and possible for you to look at the people that you were grooming and think about what a new system might look like that leverages the talent that you have. Because I guarantee you the three people you're looking at, they're not all the same. They have different strengths and they probably have different interests, and it may be possible to put all of them into positions to really shine. And this is just something that I have done again and again and again in my career. And you can see how this links up with my not caring that much about titles. Because I don't really care about titles. I really care about people kicking butt and taking names.
And so I'm much more open to say, you know what? We don't have a team lead in this case, we have co-leads and they have different responsibilities based on their strengths and interests, and this is how our co-leads function. And it's not as clean as saying this is the job description and a job description is always going to be, however, if you are able to manage it and willing to manage it, I do think this is a path to really grow people. And it's also going to let people really shine with their own strengths.
The downside is it means that your team is going to change because the team lead doesn't mean what it meant a year ago, it's a different position now and you're going to have to get people along and on board. So it takes more finesse and team leadership to have this. But the upsides to it is you can really engage more people and you can engage people specifically in the ways that they shine. And if you set people up so they're doing things that they like to do and that they do well at, they tend to stick around and they tend to continue to grow.
So anyway, I'm not saying that's what should happen, but I'm saying don't get caught in the crystallized idea that there's a glass slipper that the last person wore and I need someone else who can fit this exact glass slipper.
Stephanie:
I agree with you. And my thoughts on that piece have to do with the action plan, for sure.
Andy:
Okay. And the last thing I'm just going to say is, if you can, as much as you can, and this is hard, but as much as you can, start with the end in mind. What does this successful job applicant look like? What do they look like when they are installed into the role and they are comfortable and onboarded and when they are thriving in the role, what does that look like?
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
Because if you know what that looks like, one, it will help you making your selection of candidates. But two… so it'll help you making your selection candidates, it will help you with your interview process because you know a lot more clearly what you're looking for and what's going to be important.
And then the last part is it's going to help you with your onboarding and training because you're going to say, I see who this person is and I also see the idealized version of the role. And now I can take the delta between those two things, break it up into steps and make a training program that makes sense, where I can intentionally get this person from where he is to where I want him to be. And I can put it on the calendar so I don't feel overwhelmed, but I can march this person from point A to point B, which is up and fully functioning, I can do that in a very intentional way. But in order to do that, you have to know what done looks like, what the outcome you want looks like. And I'll be honest and say, it's often really hard to do that. Do your best.
Stephanie:
How about we take a break because you're speaking my nerd language here and I want to talk about if we could rewind history, where do we start? Because what you were just talking about ties to my first action step thought, which has to do with job descriptions. Do you want to take a quick break and then come back and talk about action steps?
Andy:
Yeah, yeah. Let's take a break and then we'll do action steps. We'll do action steps, if we could go back in time, we'll do action steps for…
Stephanie:
How do we actually do the thing, how do we have the conversation?
Andy:
How do we do the thing, and then what I'd like, I got a little bit on how do we take the person who we chose and get them plugged in the best way possible as well. So we got three different sort of clumps of action steps. So let's take a break and let's get back and get into it.
Stephanie:
Sounds good.
Hey friends, when's the last time you headed over to unchartedvet.com/events to see what we've got coming? If it's been a hot minute, you might want to head over there because there is a lot happening. We've got a great workshop coming up in April, April 8th to be precise, from my friend and colleague, Ron Sosa, CVPM. Ron is a certified veterinary practice manager, he's also a former practice owner. He is a neurodivergent and he is bringing his story to the stage to talk about neurodiversity in our teams and how do we tap into those superpowers.
That is happening. We also are just a few short weeks away from our April live event conference in Greenville, South Carolina. If you have been thinking about coming to join us for an event, this one would be the one to come and join us for. I am super, super excited to see everybody. It is happening April 20th through the 22nd in Greenville, and there's still time for you to sign up. Plus more. We've got tons of workshops coming this spring and you can find all of it at unchartedvet.com/events. And now, back to the podcast.
So I'm biting my tongue, sitting on my hands to not jump into the action steps the last 10 minutes because I was like, there's not a lot of head space here for me beyond the emotions. So if we could rewind and go back in time and say, this is our imaginary practice, how do we set ourselves up for success, action stepwise?
The first thing for me has to do with some of you were just talking about, about the clarity. And for me it is about the end in mind. What is the actual job description? And sometimes, like you were talking about in the earlier part of the episode, when you have a shift, when you have a change and Stephanie, the lead CSR, goes to work for the CIA and is now doing top secret things in Russia, when that happens, what is the role? What is the job? Is the job Stephanie was doing, the job that Stephanie was doing because it played to her strengths, or is it the job that we actually needed being done?
And so for me, the first step is what is the actual job description? What do we need to have happen? And this can be an opportunity to redefine and shake things up. And we experienced that as a team where we had someone who was doing a job and they did their job really, really well. And when they left the team, it gave us a good opportunity to say, do we need to keep doing the job the excellent way that this person was doing their job, or do we have a growth opportunity here and are there things that we also need done that would be better suited to a different candidate? And let's look at the candidates and evaluate the job that we think that we need now compared to the candidates, versus trying to find someone to fill that person's shoes.
Andy:
Thank you for saying that, because I think that's exactly true. That hire was really, really hard. And it was really, really hard, and it was because… and this steps back to before the break when I was talking about trying to see the end in mind. I really, really tried hard to see the end in mind, and so what I really looked at then is we had this really high-performing awesome rockstar who had another opportunity and they needed to take it, and they did need to take it. And so they went on, and so we had this hole, and I will tell you my immediate knee-jerk reaction was, we need to fill that hole.
But as I sat with it, I really pushed myself and said, okay, stop. Let's look at what all this person was doing and then let's look at what else we want to do as a company and other opportunities that we have and let's lay them all on the table. And so I would say, before you make the job description, you should come up with all the things you want to accomplish. And then those things are what make up the job description. Because I think if you just say, we're starting with a job description of what the last person had, you've already boxed yourself into the past in some way. And it may be a hundred percent that you say, nope, we don't have anything else that we want to do and this is what we need to do and this is just the job. But you should at least have that check.
So for us, we were growing rapidly and it became apparent that I could either try to find someone who had the same skillsets as this other person, who honestly was a unicorn. It was a unicorn to find another person who had this exact skillsets. Or I could say, let's step back and look at what we're trying to accomplish and how our company is growing. And it might be that we're going to add these new things into the mix and shift them around and we're going to have two new jobs.
Stephanie:
Right.
Andy:
You know what I mean? And they're each going to be part of what the other person did plus new things. And that's ultimately what we end up doing, and it really opened up our ability to hire other people, to bring people in, stuff like that. But that was very challenging to try to get my head around and lay out. But ultimately, it was so worth the effort of getting out of my head about what it meant to have that job and say, let's stop about what the job is, let's talk about what we need and then figure out how to take those needs and turn them into jobs. And we ended up making two jobs, but it worked really, really well. And I have been so happy with the people that we brought on and they have really flourished, and I feel like we got people into places where their strengths are really on display. But yeah, I completely agree with you going back in time and laying these things out.
Stephanie:
And I think in our experience as a company, the person who was on our team, they had strengths in editing and journalism, and at the time that they joined the team, that was the strength and the skillset that we needed. And then they grew and took on other stretch roles and started doing other things because they could do it and because we needed those holes filled, that doesn't mean that that was what the job meant to be. And so in that process of evaluating it, we also had the opportunity to look at their feedback of, hey, these are the things that are problematic and that maybe we could, when we look at it in depth, say, oh, hey, we want to go in this place, in this direction as a company, and here's an opportunity to use this feedback and say, “Oh, well, we were filling this role in this way because this person had a skillset”.
Andy:
Sure.
Stephanie:
But we could open our minds, and to your point, maybe we have two jobs. Maybe we still need somebody who has editorial talent, maybe we also need somebody who can do business pieces, because that was part of the stretch role. They went together because somebody stepped up and said, “I'll do the thing”. I've been in that role and I'll talk about myself as head CSR, Stephanie. I love teaching. It was a huge passion for me. And so when I was at the front desk, I did a lot of educational stuff for our clients, and I was in charge of, not really the marketing piece, but I created our bulletin board displays in the lobby for all of our marketing months and wrote client education pieces for our newsletter. Does my lead CSR need to do all of that? No.
We made that a portion of my job because I loved it and I was passionate about it, but at the end of the day, do I need the person in that specific role to fill that hole? I don't. Somebody else from the team might step up, or maybe we decide that we don't need to keep doing it because it's not as important of a part of our business as it once was. But it is an opportunity to look at all of those things through a clear lens, versus through the lens in the moment of this is the path, these are the decisions we made and why we made them, and look at it from a fresh perspective.
And so I think if I could have a magic wand and rewind time for this clinic, I would say, what is it that you actually need? What is the job? And the reason that I start with the job description, what is it that this role is actually going to be, has to do with all of the things we just talked about. But it also, for me, has to do with helping make the decision because the details of what we're looking for and why we're looking for it really matter.
Andy:
Yes.
Stephanie:
And that can help you with avoiding discrimination and biases in the selection process. And so if you don't already have a job description, if you're just like, well, we know we need somebody to lead, but you don't have a clear idea of what that actually means and the job that they're going to be asked to do, you have to start there.
Andy:
Yeah, I do agree with that. I think that that's really important as far as giving people opportunities and getting candidates that aren't the candidates you immediately think of a chance to shine. I think that's really important. We definitely have to get there.
I think you kind of reminded me of it. Think about all the jobs that you've had that started out as a clear job, and then they just metastasized as people were like, “Hey, we need somebody to run the snack room”, and “Hey, does anybody know how to do this thing with the graphic design software”? And you're like, “I mean, I can do it”. And so now you've got this strange accounting/HR/public relations job. Let's be honest about how people's jobs happen.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
It wasn't that strategic when you built it.
Stephanie:
No.
Andy:
And to now act like, this is what it has to be. I'm like, you have the weirdest hodgepodge of jobs stuffed together. And it's because that's what Stephanie who went to Russia could do. Those were her skills. And so again, chop that stuff up and reorganize it, but then to your point, it needs to go into a clear job description. I completely agree with that, and I hope it was clear when I was saying first start with what do we need to happen? And then take that into that description. But you're right, you need to get in that job description. Yes.
Stephanie:
Okay. Is there anything else, if we could rewind time, the job description piece of it was the big piece of it for me. There's one other piece. I think the other piece besides the job… if I could rewind time and maybe this clinic already did this, but when you're going to do an internal, I have made this mistake very painfully, which is why I'm going to talk about it. When you're going to do an internal promote potential situation, it is very important to have a process and guidelines for what you're going to do and how you're going to do it, and make that known to everyone involved. The candidates should have expectations for what the process is, how are they going to be evaluated, how are they going to be measured, what you're looking for. And that's why that job description is so important.
But I have made that mistake very painfully and emotionally of we know we need somebody to step into this leadership role, but we're not really clear what we're looking for. We know we want them to be able to have this skillset and this skillset, but beyond that, it could be really flexible. Going in the direction of creating the role for the person versus what is the actual role that we want, creates challenges in particular when you're internally promoting.
And so I think if I could rewind time, I would say make sure that you have a plan and that you're communicating that plan to the candidate so that they know we're going to have initial interviews and this is what we're going to talk about and this is what we're going to look at. And then we're going to do whatever comes next. Are they going to shadow you for a day because they're looking at management versus not having… whatever that looks like. What is your process, so that they know. And then what is the expectation about how you're going to make your decisions and what they can expect in terms of a timeline and a process and all of those things.
Andy:
Yeah, I have that in my, where do we go from here steps. But your point about laying those expectations down before you get started, I think you're absolutely right. I think you're absolutely right. And so when we shift into, where do we go from here, I'm going to go back across that area in a very similar way, but it all works much better if you set the expectations up front. I really like that.
Stephanie:
Anything else for you, if you could rewind time?
Andy:
No, I mean, if I could turn back time… I'm a Cher fan, as Stephanie Goss knows. I may not be as big a Cher fan as Stephanie Goss likes to believe that I am. Or I might be a bigger one.
Stephanie:
Or you might be a bigger one. I might get videos of Andy dancing to Cher in the supermarket.
Andy:
Oh, they play…
Stephanie:
He's got some hype music happening and there are videos that happen.
Andy:
I think of you, when I'm at the grocery store and I'm in Publix and Cher is on, first of all, the music of Publix is banging. I could go just drive around the Publix shopping center and listen to their soundtrack all day. But If I Could Turn Back Time was on the radio, and sent Stephanie a little video of me singing and then using a sausage as a microphone, and I sent it to her. Anyway. All right.
Stephanie:
Straight track.
Andy:
Okay. If I could turn back time, I would… I think I'd be good. I think we got it. All right. Cool. So let's talk about where we go from here. So we've got this thing, and now we come to the actual question that we were asked.
Stephanie:
We've just talked for a half hour about…
Andy:
At the 30-minute mark, we're in this, and now we come to the question, which is, what do we do here? The big thing is clear is kind. Clear is kind. Say it, be empathetic, be kind. Yes. Be empathetic, be kind, be supportive, go slow. But most of all, be clear and honest and just let them know what is happening. And let them know why it's happening. But the first thing you need to say is when the decision is made, you need to talk to the other candidates first because you don't want them to find it out from somewhere else.
Stephanie:
Thank you. Yes.
Andy:
You need to bring them in and you need to tell them this is the decision that has been made, and start with that.
Stephanie:
Yep, I agree. So step one for me was make a plan, because everybody has to hear about it at the same time, or you're going to open yourself up for gossip and drama in your practice. So you can't tell the person who is getting the job and then wait a week to talk to the other people. That kind of gap creates drama that you want to avoid at all costs. So there has to be a plan and everybody has to hear it, to your point, clear is kind. But hear it in the same timing.
Andy:
Yep. I would say…
Stephanie:
Oh, go ahead.
Andy:
No, I was going to say, so in that conversation, clear is kind. You always say give people space to be human, and I always like that phrase a lot. There's probably going to be tears and there's probably going to be people who are very upset, and I want to be supported. Of course there is, because it's funny, even people who didn't really want it that much when they hear that they didn't get it hits like a hammer.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
It hits you in the chest and it's hard. It's really hard. And so just recognize and expect that that's probably what's going to happen. I would not expect to have a huge conversation with people because if they just got bad news, they probably don't want to sit and talk to you a whole lot. So give them space to be human. Let them know, tell them what was great that they did and what they do. Tell them that you want to keep them at the practice and you think there's going to be other opportunities for them, and only say it if it's true. But there's other opportunities and there's ways that we want to continue to work and grow with you. And tell them that if and when they're ready, if they would like to review the application and talk about what they did well and where they could grow for a leadership role, that you are open to doing that.
And I would not try to have that feedback conversation at the same time I broke the news to them. I would be ready to have it, but I would try not to have it. I would try to tell them that… clear is kind, tell them what happened, give them some time to process it. Tell them that they had plenty of strengths. Let them know that you want them to continue to stay and that you think that they can continue to develop in your practice and you want to try to make that happen. And then tell them that when they're ready, you can go through the evaluation of the interview process and you'd be happy to give them feedback on their interview. And then I would be done.
Stephanie:
Okay. I agree with that. It's funny, it's like you and I have worked together for six years at this point, because my next step was, do it face-to-face and let them be human. Because here's the thing, you're not wrong, there are going to be emotions. And there have been times where, to your point, I fell in love with an idea, and when I stepped back, I wasn't actually in love with the idea. But I still was massively disappointed when the thing didn't come to fruition. And with hindsight, was able to see, oh, okay, I didn't actually want this anyways, I just fell in love with the idea. But in the moment, there was frustration and tears and disappointment, and give them the space to be human.
And I think as a manager, the other piece that I will tack onto that is, when people are being human, you need to be able to control your emotions because it is very easy in this conversation as a leader, to over empathize. And I am one of those people where I am a reactionary puker, but I'm also a reactionary crier. And so if someone starts crying, I have to actively work to not… it is a physical response, and I have to actively work to overcome that. And so if you are someone who tends to get sucked into emotions, and/or, if you are a leader and you're in the position of telling somebody that you have a friendship with or a closer relationship with that they didn't get the job, you were going to have to work extra hard to be human, but not too human. Because it can be really easy to fall into the commiseration trap and over empathize and say things or do things that you might not want to say.
Andy:
Sure. Yeah. And I think related that too, I think you should be upfront about the decision. There's the people who try to soften the blow, and so they dance all around. It's like, no, just…
Stephanie:
Nope, just say it. Rip the bandaid.
Andy:
Just tell them. Yeah, just rip the bandaid off and just kindly tell them.
Stephanie:
Kindly, and clear is kind.
Andy:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Empathetic and kindly too. I mean, you can do both of those things. You can be upfront and clear and kind about what the decision was.
Stephanie:
Yeah.
Andy:
No, I think that's true. It is funny, to your point, I have literally told people, “You did not want this job. This was not… I know you applied for this, you would not have…”
Stephanie:
I believe you've actually told me that.
Andy:
Yeah. I think I've told you. I've done it more than once. And again, you have to be careful with that too, because I'm not trying to be condescending and say, I know better than you. But in another way, sometimes there are people and you say, “You are a beautiful dolphin. You don't want this job that involves climbing trees. You don't want it. You're not going to like it. You're not going to be good at it. But you have such a beautiful, wonderful set of skills”. It's not a personal thing. It's not a self-worth thing. It's a, this is not a good fit for you, I don't think.
Stephanie:
So I love your point about keeping it short. There are some people who are self-aware and could have the step two of that conversation in the context of the same conversation. There are some people who would be like, “Okay, I'm bummed”, but you might have somebody on your team who then would say, “Can you tell me what I could have done differently”? Or ask for the feedback. There are people who are self-aware. So being prepared to have that conversation is really important. And I would prep for that ahead of the conversation so that if it does go there, great. But also recognizing people need to be human, and sometimes people need to process.
And so for me, I love this piece of it, and I think it's so important because developmentally we want to talk to them about why we considered them in the first place. And that's your point about the dolphin. What are those things that made them stand out? Why did you consider them? What is the positive? What are the things that they're great at? What are their skillsets? And then what are the areas of opportunity for them for growth? It has nothing to do with you're not doing this well or you're not doing it right. Sometimes it's, you haven't had any experience with supervisory positions before, and one of the other candidates on the team did, and so we need somebody who has some supervisory capacity. And so while I think you could do great in this role, right now, that was the edge. And so then it becomes a developmental conversation about here's a piece that was needed, here are things you could do to gain experience in that area without stepping into this role. And then it becomes about what they can do to grow and develop themselves.
And I think your part about asking a dolphin to… They didn't really want a job that involved climbing trees because don't ask a dolphin to climb a tree. I want to ask them what they want and why they wanted it. Tell me why you thought you wanted that job. Because ultimately, they may not be disappointed. The reason for their disappointment or sadness or frustration or anger at not getting the job might have nothing to do with the job itself. It may be they wanted the job because it came with a pay increase and that they're in a situation where they need to increase their pay or they might have to leave the practice.
That's a completely different conversation, developmentally, than you didn't get this job. If I know that as a manager, I might still be able to help in that situation. And so part two for me is, what do they want and why did they want it? Because the developmental plan is going to be most successful when it's coming from them. And so if they tell me they want to be a leader, or they tell me they want to be in a position that has different hours because their current schedule is a big conflict for picking their kid up at daycare. That's a completely different conversation than the conversation about they're disappointed because they desperately wanted this specific job for these specific reasons.
And I think being prepared to have that conversation and evolve it into who are they as a person, what do they do really well, where are the opportunities for them to continue to grow, and what does a plan for them to move forward look like for you. And I love that you said, let them know what the future potential is. You want to make sure you're not setting a developmental plan that has false hope or false promises. So it's like, hey, look, there are opportunities for you and let's work on these things. But be very careful to… I've watched managers make this mistake where it's, “Oh, the next time we have a promotion, you're next in line”. Don't say that.
Andy:
Yeah, don't say that. Yeah.
Stephanie:
Because things could change. And so finding out what they want and why they want it.
Andy:
Well, I know why people say that, right? They're trying to cushion the blow.
Stephanie:
Yes.
Andy:
And they're like, “Oh, but you're next”.
Stephanie:
Absolutely.
Andy:
And then the world changes, and then you are going to regret having said that, so yeah, that's exactly the stuff that I have learned. The other reason I think that these conversations can be so hard, and this is kind of a little bit of a paradigm shift, but I think a lot of people really want these jobs, even though when you actually get into what is the job, they're like, “I don't want to do any of that”.
But it's because there's such limited upward mobility in so many parts of the practice where there's a lot of people who believe. And in a lot of practices, it's true that the only step upward, as far as development, responsibility, compensation for the CSR is the lead CSR job. And you say, “But you would hate it”. And they would say, “But it's the only developmental opportunity, pay bump, chance to do something different that I am going to have here. And if I don't get it and someone else gets it, then the clock on me being able to do something different to make any sort of an upward move just resets”.
And I think that that's really sad, it goes all the way back around to my beginning statement when I just said, just because this is the way we've always done it in the past, doesn't mean it's the way we have to do it now. I really am a big fan of trying to figure out lots of different developmental opportunities. Maybe they're smaller, but they're more spread out so more people can get them. I think as a profession, we need to continue to work to not put such a hard ceiling on the opportunities for development for people, so when there's one job that's a bad fit for them opens up, they feel like they desperately need to get it. And I go, that's not good. So anyway.
Stephanie:
Absolutely. I love that you said that. That is a huge passion soapbox for me. The ability to create outward opportunity and not just upward opportunity is so important, and I think that it's a trick we miss. And to your point, if you really step back and think about it, there are probably at least a dozen, if not a hundred, different things in your practice that could be areas of opportunity of ownership for someone. It doesn't have to be about a title, doesn't have to be about positional power. For most people, development is about ownership and about growth, and there are endless opportunities for that. And it is something that we over overlook. And so I love that you brought that up.
Andy:
Yeah. So let's talk real quick about, we've made this selection, let's talk about setting the person we selected up for success. Can we do that?
Stephanie:
Okay. Yep.
Andy:
So got just got three quick ones, because I do think this is important. I have seen a number of times people make a promotion like this or make a hire like this, and they're like, great, you're the one, good luck. By the way, there's a couple really angry people you're going to be working with.
Stephanie:
Right. Now you have to supervise.
Andy:
I wouldn't leave my lunch unsupervised. They say something like that, and then they let them go. And I go, that's terrible. So you picked your person, obviously you should do the things that we recommended as far as breaking the news to the other people. After that, make sure you have a good onboarding program to get this person up to being the person that you imagined them being. Remember, when we imagined what a fully functional person in this role, well-supported, well-trained looks like? What was that? And then what are the steps we need to take to get them to that place? And that's your training program. That's your onboarding program.
So make sure that you've got an intentional way of getting this person up and going, because one thing that you don't want is to have a couple people in your organization all go for a job and one person gets it, and then they struggle in that role because that opens the door up to criticism, I told you so. Why did that person get it and I didn't get it? You want them to hit the ground running and start to make some strides, and you want them to get wins under their belt very quickly. Because often that will put this issue behind you, and so make sure that you have a plan to onboard them and to get them some wins under their belt.
So that's the first part for me, show full support of this person. So it sounds like with our mailbag writer, there were a number of different stakeholders in the decision who all sort of came together about who they were going to choose. There is no mixed decisions anymore. Once that decision is made, all the stakeholders need to get on board and get united and get behind this person and support this person in that role.
Stephanie:
Yes. We can't be behind the scenes, well, I didn't agree with it, but we made a decision anyways.
Andy:
I've seen that. I know you've seen that.
Stephanie:
Yep. You're just separating them.
Andy:
Yeah, exactly right. You're making this worse and it will fester, and nope, everybody needs to come together behind this person as they pick up some wins. And then the last thing is you need to own your role in any tension. And so if there's some resentment, if there's tension, do not put it on the new person that you elevated to figure it out. You were there, you ran the interviews, you did these things. You need to own the fact that you may have had a role in creating any sort of tension or competitiveness, and you need to take a lot of responsibility in resolving that and getting things back to normal. It's just amazing how many times I've seen people be like, well, that was messy. Well, we've made the decision. Let's see how he does. And then they wash their hands. And I'm like, that's not okay.
And again, at this point, this is all about stabilizing the ship now and making everybody just accept what has happened and understand that there's no going back and this is not a wishy-washy decision that might change. Nope, we're in this, this is where we're going. And the people who were involved in running the process need to own any tension that comes from it and try to protect the new person from having to deal with that tension. Because again, the thing that will make this most in the rearview mirror is that person having success and starting to move forward and move the practice forward.
Stephanie:
Yeah, I love it. Oh man, this was fun.
Andy:
This was a good one. This was super fun.
Stephanie:
I think that's it. You got anything else?
Andy:
No, that that's all I brought.
Stephanie:
Oh, man. I hope this was helpful, maybe, to our mailbag writer, or to some of you facing this kind of decision. Have a great week, everybody.
Andy:
Have a great week, everybody.
Stephanie:
I was like, is there anything else? Nope, that's it. Have a great week. Take care of yourself, gang.
Andy:
All right. See you everybody.
Stephanie:
Bye.