This practice owner aims to develop a plan for both a new, eager graduate and an established associate who is less enthusiastic about development. Dr. Addie Reinhard, CEO of MentorVet, joins Dr. Andy Roark on this week's podcast to tackle this unique challenge.
Dr. Reinhard brings a wealth of expertise to the conversation, as the founder of MentorVet—an organization known for its evidence-based approaches to promoting well-being within veterinary medicine. Her extensive research, including her role in the Merck Animal Health Veterinary Wellbeing Study, focuses on developing interventions to support mental health and well-being in the veterinary field. All of this making her the perfect person to help us with this week's mailbag.
Together, Dr. Addie Reinhard and Dr. Andy Roark discuss the importance of tailored development plans, employee ownership, and provide actionable steps for any practice leader looking to enhance their mentorship programs. Let's get into this…
You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.
Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.
Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
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Episode Transcript
Dr. Andy Roark: Hey, everybody, it's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and this is the Uncharted Podcast. Guys, I got a good one for you today. Dr. Addie Reinhard is on the show, and we go to the mailbag to answer a question about how to develop a new graduate and also an associate vet who maybe doesn't want to be developed.
So anyway, if you are a medical director, if you are a practice owner, practice manager, somebody who's trying to develop doctors, this is a great episode for you. If you love it, remember that Dr. Addie Reinhard is going to be presenting at the Uncharted Medical Director Summit. That's right. It is a summit that we do for medical directors. It is on May the 29th. It is virtual. It is one day, but if you're a medical director it's gonna be a great one and Addie will be there running a general session for us on developing doctors. Anyway, let's get into this episode.
Announcer: And now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark: And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only Dr. Addie, gonna-make-a supersonic-fad-out-of-you, Reinhard, sitting in for Stephanie Goss today. Addie, how are you?
Dr. Addie Reinhard: I'm doing pretty well. Busy, busy, but yeah, in a good space. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: In a good space? You this is off topic, but you, you just, you bought a homestead. And for those who don't know, a homestead is basically a small farm, from what I can tell. Is that true?
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah, it's a 50 acre farm. We're closing on Friday, so by the time this episode airs, we will have purchased the homestead. And yeah, so 50 acres, there's an old 1800s farmhouse on it that needs a lot of renovation and repair. There's a barn that's kind of fallen down that we just got a quote on how much it would be to fix the roof, and it was a lot. And there's a garage and a tiny house, and so essentially it's just like a big money pit.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's a big–congratulations on your purchase of a financial vacuum.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: It's gonna be fun, though. It's gonna be fun.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's going to be super fun. And when you, when you come up with some cockamamie scheme to put your barn up, let me know. Cause I haven't done a barn raising before, but it seems like things that we should come together and do.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah, and I mean, that's gonna be the goal, is the community, and we have a lot of friends who are really excited about working out there, and yeah, it should be, should be a good time. We've been working out there for a couple years now, and we're purchasing it from a friend, but that is an aside, anyway.
Dr. Andy Roark: That is an aside, but so when you're not homesteading, which I recently learned it's a verb when you're not homesteading, you are also a veterinarian. You are the CEO and founder of MentorVet, and who does, MentorVet, do you want to speak quickly on, on MentorVet and kind of what, what your work is there?
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yes, yeah, so, I guess, I think four or five years ago kind of recognized that there was a gap in resources and support specifically for vets transitioning into practice, because I was one of those vets transitioning into practice and really had good medical mentorship, but I felt like there was still resources that could be beneficial.
And so, did my master's program at UK in community and leadership development, did a lot of research on. Well being and mentorship and more importantly, what can we do about it? So developed a mentorship program for young vets that we piloted in the summer of 2020 and then that research project became MentorVet the entity that creates evidence based programming to support veterinary professionals at all stages of their career to give people, the kind of resources and tools and community that they need to, to really thrive.
And so we have mentorship programming now for early career veterinarians. We've had about a thousand young vets go through our program, our flagship program, MentorVet Leap. We now collaborate with the AVMA and run the paired mentorship program for the AVMA. We have a mid career vet program that we're piloting this year specifically with new diplomates and we have a mentor certificate program as well and a technician program.
So lots of programs, five in operation now and, and growing. So, I am I have a team now and, and my full time job is pretty much supporting them to help them do the best job that they can and help us, I think, stay on the tracks mostly because it's like a freight train and just growing fast and helping a lot of people. So I love, I love my job.
Dr. Andy Roark: Well, you are going to be speaking at the Uncharted Medical Director Summit, which is a virtual summit we are having on May 29th. And so, you're going to be there and you are going to be lecturing on growing, or workshopping is what we do. You're going to be workshopping general sessioning on growing and developing the and in a way that's targeted at medical directors.
And that is why I wanted to reach out to you to help me with the mailbag question that I have for today. Alright, you ready? I'm gonna lay it on ya.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Let's hear it.
Dr. Andy Roark: Alright, here we go. I have a two vet practice transitioning to a three vet practice. The new graduate that's coming in says that he wants mentorship. And this person put mentorship in quotations– says he wants mentorship. The associate vet we have isn't asking for coaching or mentorship, but I think she needs it. We, we, we aren't practicing the same level of care, but every time I bring this up to her, she bristles and complains about, quote, cookbook medicine, end quote. Do you have any advice? And so what I'm getting from this is we have a practice owner who's a vet, and this person has we're just gonna call her we're gonna say she, I don't know if it's a she or he we're gonna say she has an associate that they don't exactly practice the same way, and it seems like maybe she would like to help elevate this vet's standard of care.
And then she's got a new graduate coming in, and he says he wants mentorship. Let's go ahead and start out how we usually start here at Uncharted, in sort of headspace. if you're this practice owner and you're looking at this, it's a challenge, right? We've got, basically it’s two different challenges.
I think they both go under the heading of Growing and developing doctors, but they're in fairly different places. Do you agree with that, Addie?
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah. And I would say, you know, a big thing that kind of just comes up for me here is something I think about a lot is the individualized nature of, of mentorship and how it's really hard to create just even using the same terminology here of cook, cookbook medicine, but even like a, a cookie cutter mentorship program that kind of fits everyone's needs.
So that's kind of the first thing that came up is that you have two different veterinarians at different stages of their career that are likely going to have very different, needs for what they need for their development the other thing that kind of popped into my head was just the, the conflict that probably needs to be addressed even before kind of implementing mentorship with this associate veterinarian and sounds like there's some underlying disagreements on that.
Maybe values in medicine that, that might need to be addressed first. So those are kind of two of the things that just like jumped out at me initially.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I like that a lot. So, I do I think you're probably right. I think probably jumping straight to “how do I mentor this associate vet” is probably a recipe for disaster. I completely agree. I think we need to have, we need to have kind of a meeting of the minds about what success in the practice kind of looks like and some, you know, I think, I think we've got to get on the same page a little bit more about the importance of, of, of at least practicing a similar standard of care and things like that.
I've seen a lot of people lay down development plans for associates that are not interested in development plans. And then it's just basically it's a mechanism for writing the person up and managing them out of the practice, right? Like you're like, Hey, here's what you're going to do.
And the person's like, I never said I was going to do that. Well, you're behind schedule already and that, that never ends well. So, I think, I think you're right about sort of the honest conversation about what we're trying to do. I think to your point, I think that the new graduate coming in gives you a really good reason to have that career conversation about coming into alignment. You know what I mean? It doesn't have to be. Hey, you're not doing as good a job as I am. It can 100 percent be we've got someone new coming in and we want to develop this person. And I'm concerned that us practicing very different types of medicine is going to be confusing.
And also we're going to end up with a person who's practicing a third type of medicine and that's really not the direction that we want to go and so I think as this person is coming in, I would really like to work with you about the two of us figuring out where we can come together and how we can come together so that we can help mentor this new person together and then also as the practice owner, it's, it's interesting.
I see a lot of practice owners and I've, I'm notorious for this, is if there's a need, I throw myself on to the, that need, but as a result, you end up having people standing around who would love to help you, but you didn't give them the opportunity. You just assumed that as the practice owner, you have to mentor this new person coming in.
And so I, I end up throwing myself on to work that other people would be happy to help me with if I had just coordinated with them, sort of have a conversation with them, you know what I mean? And, and, and, and ask for their help.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah, and I would add, you know, I think even coming into alignment on how each vet is practicing medicine, and maybe it doesn't have to be the same, like I think that there's also value in, in diversity and, and how we approach things, and if we can get on the same page with this associate vet of kind of agreeing that maybe we are practicing in different ways and this is how we want to mentor this individual coming in and getting on the same page.
You do bring up a good point about who's going to be this person's mentor potentially, or what kind of mentor network are you going to create? And I don't, I don't think that it has to be the, the practice owner mentoring this individual and maybe the associate veterinarian is interested in doing some mentorship and might, might be interested in that role as well.
But I think, I mean, a big thing, another thing that kind of comes into my head as I, I look at this is how important it is to for development plans to come from the mentee or the individual being developed and letting them set their own goals for, for development and not imposing your own, and I think you were hitting on this, like, not imposing your own development plans on these individuals.
And I mean, the, the only way to do that is, is to ask, but that's jumping into actions, but,
Dr. Andy Roark: Well, I mean, it is. But I think, I think from a headspace standpoint, I think you make really good points. I think, I think the, the sort of the headspace part of this for me is a lot of, a lot of our, a lot of our veterinarians, a lot of our medical directors, a lot of our practice owners, a lot of our practice managers are very much high achieving people, and they like to have a plan, and they like to have control, and they like to be ready.
And so. I have found that it's really hard and can feel very frustrating when people are like, I want to write the plan down and make this program and give it to them. And you go, yeah, but you really need to talk to them and, and honestly, and honestly kind of hold this plan a little bit loosely because if they're coming out of vet school, they don't know what they're going to struggle with.
They don't know what they don't know. I have, there's just, there's certain things in life that you can get so much further ahead if you can have a loose plan and continue to check in and continue to sort of be present and to kind of come back around and make adjustments, but I think a lot of people really struggle.
They feel like they're not doing it, doing what they're supposed to be doing, or they're unprepared because how this mentorship is going to go, it's really a bit nebulous. Like I'll say stuff like all the time, like, well, we're going to, we're going to go in and we're going to work with this person. We're going to see how it goes.
And they're like, yeah, but what are we going to actually do? And I'm like, we're going to talk to them and kind of see what happens. And then we'll take that information and we'll, we'll. Make some decisions based on that. Great. But what do we put on this piece of paper that I'm holding so that I can feel like we have a clear plan when we get started?
And I think, I think giving people permission to not have a bullet pointed 32 page mentorship plan. I think that that's an important piece of headspace. And it sounds like you're, you're on board with that. Would you agree? Or am I being too cavalier?
Dr. Addie Reinhard: I, I think that, so I think what you're referring to is kind of structured flexibility. At least that's what I, how I like to think about it. Like having some plans in place, but being willing to adapt those plans to fit the needs of the individual. So I do think that before this new grad even starts that there should be some intentionality behind what is going to happen in the first three to six months, and some sort of plan put together, but that doesn't have to be done all by you and it shouldn't be done all by you. It should be done collaboratively with that new grad. Now, a lot of new grads don't really know what they need when they're in vet school, but some of them do.
I remember when I was in fourth year, I knew, I'm not confident at surgery. I'm going to need a lot of support here. And so we need to come up with some really structured plans around okay, am I going to shadow in surgery for the first few months? Am I going to do this then and and I think that would give me more confidence coming into an environment knowing okay, the plan is this and also if I, you know, exceed my own and others expectations.
We're willing to shift the plan if needed and revisit the plan. So, I think I think having some structure is important and then revisiting that structure because I will say, you know ,more and more if we're looking at what new new vet students want and need and what they're looking for. They are looking for that plan And so if we don't have some kind of plan, especially as if you're an independently owned hospital trying to compete and recruit new grad veterinarians you kind of have to have that plan in place.
Because so many of the large corporate groups have structured mentorship programming, and a lot of our vet students are looking for that and seeking that out.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Do you think it's important at this point, right, when you're, when you're thinking about what this relationship might look like and you're sort of getting ready for this person come to, to sort of come into the practice? Addie, like, I'm, I'm looking around my profession and I got this, I got this idea.
Yeah. And so I, I am starting to wonder a little bit if there's not this weird phase of people's careers that has emerged recently, which is like the baby vet phase. And so I started hearing the term baby vet, like, I don't know, it's
Dr. Addie Reinhard: I don't like that term.
Dr. Andy Roark: I don't either. I'm glad you said that. I don't like that either.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: No, because they're not babies.
Dr. Andy Roark: They're not, they are trained professionals. They've had four years of advanced school.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Well and they call themselves that sometimes, too. And,
Dr. Andy Roark: They're told that.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: I know, yeah, they're, they're, they're doctors. Aww.
Dr. Andy Roark: I had someone say, Oh, well, you know, that was our baby vet. And I said, how long has your baby vet been there? And they said, three years. And I was like, look, if I had someone, if one of my friends was like, yeah, I have a baby. And I said, how old's your baby? And they said, three years. I'd be very much a toddler.
That is very much not a, not a baby. But so the reason I say this,
Dr. Addie Reinhard: I see it as a microaggression for sure like that can be a hurtful comment to a lot of young veterinarians,
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, it definitely, it definitely does not help them build credibility with the staff and it definitely does not help them build credibility with the clients. When and I'm certain there's I think I think a lot of people think it's an adorable term. Again, i'm trying to bash on people that use it. It is kind of adorable. I get it. But it doesn't help build confidence
Dr. Addie Reinhard: I do, I think people are using it as like a term of endearment with good intentions that aren't meant to hurt or harm, and I do recognize that. And also, I think anything that does have the potential to hurt or harm someone, like, I think some people might look at it as, Oh, like, but then there are other people who could be hurt by that. So, I've tried to eliminate that from my vocabulary, so.
Dr. Andy Roark: I, I agree with that. I think, I think there's two pieces to this one is, you know, I always try to tell doctors, trust is the currency that you deal in. It's trust that your staff has in you. It's trust that the clients have in you. Like there's nothing more valuable than trust. This is a relationship business, whether you're dealing with staff or dealing with clients.
And the idea that you're a baby vet. Nobody's gonna trust a baby. It's just kind of a, babies are not known for being trustworthy. It's just, and so I think that, I think that the term, again, I agree with you. I think everyone's using it in good intention. I don't think it's meant to put people down usually.
But, but, I think it undermines that. The other, the other, part of this is, I've got a little bit of concern that when we talk to vet students and say, oh, you're going to be a baby vet, or we bring people in and say, well, now you're, you're a baby vet, or even we talk to them about being mentored. And if we don't talk about the right way, I feel like there can be this weird period of almost arrested development where the person has graduated from vet school, but they don't actually see themself as a competent, fully functional veterinarian. It's almost like, like they haven't been pushed out of the nest yet. And again, I don't want to throw people out. You know what I mean? I'm definitely not a suck it up, throw them to the wolves. That's not how I, how I roll. And at the same time, there is some concern sometimes about giving people a nice, comfortable place to stay where they haven't been fully put into a place of being a decision maker. The expectation has not been set that, you know, you're you're a doctor now and you make these decisions and things like that. And so anyway, it's just when we're talking about the mentorship program and you talked a little bit about a formal mentorship program.
To me, it feels important to set general guidelines of how this program ends and kind of how we're going to move the vet out of a mentorship program. Do you agree with that? Or do you, do you think that I'm kind of overstating the case against having a formal end to a program or for having a formal end?
Dr. Addie Reinhard: I think it's important to have things that are time bound to revisit the relationship and at the same time, I think that people need mentorship throughout their entire career. And so I think development plans should always be in place. So, so, you know, I mean, and I think picking a time of how long you want this development plan to be is again around whatever the mentee kind of thinks and wants and needs, I've seen anywhere from six months, a year, two years.
And I, I think having spots where you can check in, reevaluate, see where you've been and, you know, make shifts and alter your course and your direction, I think is important. Yeah, all of our programming is, is time bound and, and I think that's just, you know, solid to do. In
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Now that you're saying this, I think for me, there's a specific onboarding period. I guess that's what I'm talking about because you're right. Like mentorship and growth should continue throughout your career. There's a certain amount of time when you're sort of onboarded until you are seen as a fully autonomous person, veterinarian and member of the staff, but I don't think mentorship should end at that point But I do think that sort of passive autonomy is important. I I think that you're totally right I think I think I would not pick an arbitrary time and say it's three months and then over the side of the boat you go like that's it shouldn't be it shouldn't be that.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Well, and I think the individual matters in this situation, so some of my classmates and I see a lot of early career vets are just ready to go, ready to take the reins, ready to have that autonomy on day one, and they know their limits, and yeah, go for it. And also we're going to have some structured development in place and some mentorship.
And then other veterinarians are so scared of making a mistake and don't want to screw up and need a little bit more hand holding that eventually turns into a little bit of needing some pushing out of the nest as well. That's kind of my personal experience. I had great mentorship and also my mentors had to keep pushing me to build my own confidence.
And so I think so much of this is so individually dependent, and I will keep hitting on that because you really do have to know who you're helping and, and what their needs are.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I think, I think that that makes a ton of sense. Would you, I guess now that we're sort of talking about this and getting to it from just again, what we're looking at as far as development, I think you put your finger right on it with the associate that I, I think we've gotta, we've gotta kind of sort out kind of how we're feeling and what expectations are about how similarly we're similarly we're gonna practice and, and things like that.
And, and, and make sure we can try to get this person to buy into coming together. You know, as a, as a team, I guess, in, in sort of our approach. But the nuts and bolts of the mentorship program for the established doctor feel fairly similar to me. Do you agree with that as far as, it's going to be very individual, it's going to have sort of ongoing feedback?
We need to sort of tailor it to the person that we're working with. It should ideally be something that they're really excited about and they see value in. Is there anything, it's saying that I can, if I can get the associate vet sort of deciding to go into this development with the idea that they might grow in sort of how they're practicing.
Is there anything that you're going to look at differently when you're starting to think about developing your associate over your new graduate?
Dr. Addie Reinhard: You know, I think with the associate vet we have to recognize a lot of their own knowledge and experience and expertise. And the stage that they're in is inherently different than the new graduate. And so I, I think. I do, I see underlying this there, there is this conflict in the way this person is practicing medicine and it's not matching the way that I'm practicing medicine.
And I think the question that I have is, is that a bad thing? Like where can, can we check it? Are there some underlying biases here that are affecting how I'm viewing the way that this associate is practicing medicine? And, is this, because everybody does things a little differently and if, if we can kind of come to terms with like giving this person some autonomy and maybe then they will also be more bought into development and growth of themselves if they feel more ownership in what they're doing and where they're going with their career but, but again, the same things I think that we talked about before do apply of understanding their needs you know, You know, after we get through the initial trust building and getting back on the same page.
But I think coming to them and understanding their needs, where do they want to grow? What do they want to learn? And maybe that's different than what you want them to learn. And that's okay. And being able to let them kind of decide the path of their own mentorship and development and whatever that looks like.
And that could be, maybe they want to pursue some kind of medical development. maybe they want to pursue some type of leadership development. And I think giving them some, I think a concept that I kind of come back to a lot with mentorship, especially for adults and adult learners, is self directed learning and how powerful that can be.
Right? And so, If I am really excited about a hobby, let's say homesteading, I'm going to be doing a lot more work to understand, you know, and, and I'm reading building codes to understand how to build this structure. And I'm just getting really deep into it because I'm excited about it. It's something that I want to learn and I'm interested in it versus something else that I'm not very interested in learning about. I'm, and then I feel like it's just another job added on to my day. And so finding things that people are interested in and finding those sparks of interest and encouraging those sparks of interest and providing resources and support and funding to further develop those skills and the sparks, I think, I, I think is a good, good way to go.
Dr. Andy Roark: No, I, I completely agree. Yeah, there's feeding people's innate interest always, always takes us further than, than pushing them through a program, I think.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah, and, and one more thing I will say, like, we have probably two very different stages. I don't know, did they mention where this associate was at in their career? Like mid career, early
Dr. Andy Roark: No, it didn't say.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah, so I, I think oftentimes too, like, early career is very different than, like, mid career. I'd say, like, three years out, up to, like, 20 years. Oftentimes, what we see is, like, this boredom and just this mundanity and and I don't know if that's where this associate is at but finding things to break that cycle of job boredom and giving them something to be excited about again I think could be really important here. So when I'm looking at the inherently different two different people.
One is like eager to enter the career, excited to learn. One maybe potentially like, Hey, I've been doing this for a while, kind of bored. Like I'm just here to do my job, get my paycheck and go home. So I think you're, you're going to have like two different motivations here that you're going to have to look at and, and look at some maybe job crafting things for the, the mid career potentially,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. I love that. I think, I think you may have just cracked, I think you may have cracked that open in my mind. Like that totally makes sense. There's a lot about this that feels like we've all been there. I mean, you know, if you've, if you practice 5, 10 years a lot of the days start to kind of feel the same.
And I think there's sort of a malaise that sets in. And if you can talk to somebody about what would be exciting to you, I think sometimes people struggle to think figure that out, but I think it's worth continuing to explore. And then if you can, if you can let people grow in that area, I think, I think you should always be growing.
I think it should always be something you're getting better at, something you're always being coached at. I just, it's just general sort of perspective that again, it's, it robs you of the feeling that you are a comfortable expert, but I think in the long term, it keeps you much more engaged and, and interested in the work that you're doing.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: And for a lot of mid-career vets, that's teaching and learning and mentoring the new generation. So that could lead very nicely into what we're going to talk about next, I guess. Are we going to actions yet?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, let's, all right. Let's take it. Let's take a quick break and then we're going to come back and we're going to jump into action steps.
Hey guys, I just have to jump in with incredible news. I will be traveling with the Uncharted Veterinary Conference team. That includes Stephanie Goss and Maria Pirita. We are going to Minneapolis for the NAVC HiVE. Conference that is there. This is on June 15th and 16th guys. We are doing a one day Uncharted conflict management training program.
That's right. And it is included with the cost of HiVE. All you have to do is register for the HiVE conference that's $99 for two days, one day, you can spend it with us, bring your team, send multiple people from your practice, put them together. We'll put them at round tables. We will have them working together, talking about conflict management.
We're going to take them through a whole day. This is not a series of lectures. It's not, they're going to go to one and they're going to do something else. Nope. Check the box register for the Uncharted event at HiVE. And you will spend the day with us. And I guess you're never going to see an Uncharted event that is a day long.
That is $99. Again, like this is the best price you will ever see on conflict management. So anyway, if you are anywhere near Minneapolis, June 15th and 16th, Come to the HiVE event it's $99 and you get a day with Uncharted. If you register for it and the other day, you can use it HiVE and get their amazing CE for technicians and managers. Anyway I'll put links in the show notes.
You should learn more. I'm serious. If you were within hours of HiVE, there was never going to be a chance for you to sign up multiple team members to come together and do conflict management training as a group. This is a phenomenal opportunity, please don't miss it. If you're able to make it, it's going to be great.
Let's get back into this episode.
Dr. Andy Roark: All right, Addie, let's get into some action steps here. So we've got we've got, it seems to me like with going through headspace, there's a natural sort of order and progression that kind of makes sense, given that we've got this associate vet uh, we've kind of, kind of picked this person as, you know, she's kind of maybe mid career it's kind of, kind of what we're sort of thinking, sort of hypothesizing here and then we've got this new graduate kind of coming in and we've kind of gotten into the headspace of, you know, we're going to.
try to meet people where they are. We're going to, we're going to see how things go. We're going to have a flexible plan that we're, that we'll sort of start to, to, to put into place. We're going to talk a little bit about what people are excited about. Maybe their motivators, things like that. And sort of to bring this out.
So Addie, where, where do you start if you're this practice owner? You're looking at this situation and start kind of coming together. Just, you know, we're going to have to talk to people and kind of see how things go, but, but lay down sort of your, your chronological approach for me here, if you don't mind.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yep. So I think first let's go the wing of the associate vet. So the current vet. I think for that individual I would schedule some time for a one on one with that individual to have a heart to heart and I think really get to the heart, because this is a conflict you know, I'm starting to think about some of my conflict management strategies, but really defining the problem and getting to the heart of, you know, what is, what is the core of Issue here and then trying to to find a path forward together.
I think that is probably going to this is probably going to be multiple meetings with this individual. So one to to get on the same page, hopefully to find the problem next, maybe revisit it, see how we're doing. And then next say, Okay, where are we going to go with your developments? And I think at that point anytime I'm developing any type of programming, the first thing I do is a needs assessment.
And so a needs assessment is essentially just identifying and recognizing the needs of another person. So it's asking them, what, what challenges are you facing right now in your work? What do you see as areas for growth? What resources might be potentially helpful to you? What are you interested in learning more about?
And a lot of times from that conversation and asking really good open ended questions, we can start to get at the heart of, of maybe where this individual wants to grow and where to focus. And I think from there, After your needs assessment is done, collaboratively with that individual, creating some type of structure and plan for what you want that development plan to look like.
So, getting really detailed on the who, what, when, where, why, how of what we're doing. And I think that's a really easy way to think about any type of development plan. programming, including mentorship programming, that's just really easy to remember who, what, when, where, why, how. And if we can really get granular on each of those and then lay out some structure and some preliminary structure for what this development plan is going to look like based on what that individual shares.
And then not forgetting to also create some type of valuation as well, so that we can kind of track our progress and know Are we hitting the goals that we're setting together? When will we know that we've achieved the goals? When are we going to be checking in along the way? So, so that kind of needs assessment, creating structure, and evaluation plan can be done with both the associate and then also then with the, with the vet student and the new grad that's coming in.
I think that would be a really easy place to start.
Dr. Andy Roark: All right, cool. I like this a lot. There's a couple things I want to sort of flesh out I think, that I, that's sort of the way that I look at it. I'm, I'm a big fan of asking for help when it's, so we're talking to our associate vet and we've got our new graduate coming in. I think what I have found in my career is, is a powerful motivator to say, hey, we've got this new graduate coming in.
I'd really like your help in onboarding this person and in helping them have a good experience. I want us to be a practice that we wish we had. Oh, you know, when we were coming out of school, something like that. And I think that that I've just found that people in our industry are, they're so willing to help and they so want to, especially doctors mentoring other doctors who are coming out of school.
Cause we all remember being brand new and I think you can tap into that and sort of ask for that type of help. And it can be a good motivator and and sort of get people to kind of lower their defenses. Because if the. If the ask is not, I want you to do this because I want you to do it, but rather, hey, I want to, I want to try to create this environment or hey, I want us to be able to support this other person.
I need your help supporting this person. I think that could be really good. And, and sort of, it can be a nice motivator and it's a good way to open the conversation.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah, I think as long as the person wants to teach and mentor. Not
Dr. Andy Roark: exactly right. Sure.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah, because if you ask me that no, I mean if you ask me that and and i'm not really interested in teaching And that's the expectation then that that's another conflict that we're gonna have too with this associate.
So
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah. Good call.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah, so I think making sure that they want to do it, but I do think that most And most people want to teach and mentor and enjoy teaching. And that's a lot of veterinarians are in this profession because they enjoy educating and teaching and mentoring. But I think yeah, making sure that this person has also bought into that as
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. No, I, I, I'm going to check my biases here. You're you guys, I love teaching. I'm like, yes, I will. A hundred percent. But no, I think that's a, that's a fair point. You know, the other thing I really like in talking about development and, and sort of trying to keep teaching grow doctors is I'm a big fan of future facing conversations, which are a lot about like, where do you want to be?
To be, you know, a year from now, what would you like to be doing? What would make you, what would make you happy? What would make, what would you, what would be interesting to you? What is something that you would like to do more of, you know, in the next six or 12 months. And for whatever reason, I think people have a hard time looking at last year and deciding what they want to do.
But if I can get them thinking about 2025 and what that might look like, because nothing there is written. I mean, it could be wherever you would kind of want to go. That, that. Looking into the future of what we might have or where we might go, I found that that's an easier sort of exercise for people and also, you know, I really, I totally believe there's going to be a couple of meetings, but I think kind of getting that out of like, what are you excited about?
What are areas that you would just just find interesting? Even if it's not something that you do a lot of what? Whoa, whoa. What, what might that look like and trying to get them that in that future facing mentality, I think it's really good. It's a whole lot easier to talk to people about where they're going in the future than to talk to them about where they've come from in the past.
People tend to get a little bit defensive if we start to talk about their performance in the last year or what they did in the last year as opposed to, I don't know, When you look ahead, what do you think you, you might kind of like? So I'm just a big fan of that sort of future facing sort of perspective.
Walk me through a little bit, the, the valuation plan, Addie. So I really like this, you know, if we don't measure it, we, we're not going to management. I think it's good to have some sort of some sort of check in. So we're not just saying that we're developing and then nothing's really happening. What, what would a, what, what sort of an evaluation plan for a mid career?
Associate veterinarian sort of look like.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: I think the evaluation depends on like what you're. trying to gain so, so much of evaluation is what are the goals for the program and then asking questions or using measures to track that progress and there are so many different ways to evaluate and I think this is something that I've historically seen not done very well and because most people just so any evaluation is better than none.
But you know, an evaluation could be something as simple as Seeking feedback from the individual on how the development plan is going and what they like about it and what they don't like about it and what they would want to improve for the future. It could be as intense as surveys or tracking different measures over time, tracking, financial measures or production.
So I think so much of evaluation depends on. What are you trying to accomplish here? And I think that's where with your kind of mentorship structure and
plan, you need to really get at the heart of what, what are the goals and the objectives here? Like what are the main learning objectives? What are the main goals for both the individual as well as the practice?
And then when you can take those goals and look at, okay, what is it that we're trying to accomplish? Then the evaluation should be a little bit easier because you can design like if the goal is to make this person go from seeing one hour appointments to 30 minute appointments and so much of the development is trying to get this person More efficient and that's something that they want for themselves Maybe they're paid on production and want to be more efficient then you could look at appointment times so in six months Did we do that?
hit the 30 minute appointment time slot. So I think that it really just depends on what you're trying to accomplish. I think it's a little bit harder when we kind of start looking at more professional skills type things. So leadership skills or things like that. But even then, if you're trying to improve your communication and leadership skills, then maybe you ask the team to provide feedback before and after of, you know, Well, you know, where so there's so many different things that you can do with evaluation, but I think just spending some intentional time thinking about how you're going to measure your progress, how you're going to track your progress and put into place.
Okay, at this point, we're going to do this survey, or at this point, we're going to do a check in that can help us stay on track so that we know that what we're doing is actually. Having an impact, and then it makes us all feel better because, oh, all that time and money that we put into doing all this is actually having the desired outcome.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Are there things you stay away from, as far as evaluation? Like you, like, yeah, are there, are there things you say, I, I, I think this is a bad, this is a bad way to measure a program.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah, that's tough. some new and recent grads get freaked out, too, by just, like, Tracking their financial kind of productivity especially like really really early in the career if they're like first year out and you're constantly Telling them, you know, hey, you need to make more money here You need to do more of this and like it can feel to them I think that you're more focused on the money than actually their growth and development.
So I'm not saying to not look at those things at all and not, you know, pay attention to them, but that's kind of a, an area where we just need to proceed with caution, like, and the flashing yellow light. So just be, be, be cautious. And. I mean, because at the heart of it, you know, if we put the person first, and developing the person first, then the other things should fall into place too.
But, but yeah, other things, I don't know, like, I've never been asked, what do I not ask?
Dr. Andy Roark: Well, I, I think you put, you went directly to where I was going, right? And that was just sort of my, my take is, to me, especially if you're calling it a mentorship program, there's not a lot of veterinarians, in my experience, that are, Well, there's some, but there's not an overwhelming majority of veterinarians that are motivated by money.
And as a measure of, boy, this program's been
successful because you've brought in so much more money. And instead, I much more commonly see pushback against that of, I was told I needed to do a development program, and then they really didn't. Zeroed in on how much money I was making at appointments and that, I've seen that really just poison the, the waters to the point that the vet's going to leave and, and, and I don't, having, being a business owner, I totally understand.
Sometimes you go, guys, this has got to make financial sense. Like we have got to be profitable. We have to pay our staff. I 100 percent get it. And so anyway, but you mentioned, you mentioned sort of financial, you know, metrics or whatever. I was just, I was just sort of curious if that was, if you shared sort of my concerns about going to that.
I think a lot of times I, now if there's a veterinarian who says, I have a lot of student debt and I want to be a very productive veterinarian, you'd say, Hey, Great. Well, let's start working. We'll look at this and we'll pay attention to how you're moving through your day and what revenue is. But if someone says, you know, I really, I really want to practice high standard of care.
And you say, great, your average client transaction will show us that you're doing really good medicine. I don't know that people buy that. I think that there's probably other metrics that we want to. Pick, you know, ideally what you want to do is because you're trying to give this person a scoreboard and no one wants a scoreboard that makes them feel icky, you know, and so I think you have to kind of just keep that in mind and I'm not saying you should choose this or choose that, but I do think that there are some scoreboards that have a higher potential for making people feel icky than
others.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: yeah, and I think if your mentee or the person you're developing is really business minded and wanting to learn more about business development and all those sorts of things, then yeah, talk a ton about the money and but I would say the majority, especially of our newest grads who've only been out a year, they're just trying not to kill something at the heart of
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Right? I
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: in year one, you're just trying not to kill anything accidentally, and so I think if we can maybe make sure that we're focusing on things that build confidence and make them feel like they're a good doctor, practicing, you know, The good medicine and yeah, I think getting along with clients and the team and, and some of that can be, yeah, client feedback to how's this individual doing and, and being sure to share those positive.
Reviews and feedback. I was at a clinic. I thought this was a really Good idea, but any any clients that we had that came in That I had a good appointment with they asked me to send them a personalized email to give me a google review And so by the by year one I had like 30 really great Reviews from clients and like that made me feel really good because like oh, yeah I I clearly helped these people on this animal and these animals.
So
Dr. Andy Roark: You sent the email or they said you did it. So you were like, hey, would you write a review on Google? That's great.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah. I said, hey, like, I, it was great to meet you this week. I really enjoyed our appointment. I'm trying to, you know, just build my trust in the, in the community and I would love to have your feedback on how I did. If you feel comfortable, no pressure, but you know, if you're interested in sharing a review for me, I would really appreciate that.
And a lot of people did. So yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: I would I totally especially if someone was like, hey I'm new here and I'm trying to build trust in the community I think I would a hundred percent be like, you know, what I I will support this person like that I love you do that You know the one the only last thing I would say here on metrics too is I do there's definitely value in sort of surveying You team, you know, for working on communication or things like that.
And again, this is, you know, how you get scars early in your career that like you always remember I, if you're going to do any sort of a 360 evaluation or interview, that should always go through an intermediary,
like just opening up to the staff and just being like, Hey, tell Dr. Roark how he's doing his communication.
It's anonymous. Like, Oh boy, I have seen that go so badly with such hurt feelings. And it's like, if this had gone through an intermediary who was not involved, who could just see the feedback and maybe process it and then say, Oh, well, overall this, you know, this is the positive things that we saw. And these are the areas.
To, to work on you assume that people on your team will communicate professionally and that's not always true. And so anyway, that's just a, that's a, that's a, that's a scar that I can show you from early in my career of, of a time that, that, that did not, that did not go as well as I wanted.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: I have one of those scars too from team feedback. Well, and I think the important piece is Asking the person if they're okay with getting feedback from the team, because I didn't know that I was getting the feedback. And it was like, and then
Dr. Andy Roark: oh, wow.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: oh,
Dr. Andy Roark: an intervention. You're, you're like, oh, everyone's here for, for, I'm sorry. Am I sitting down now?
Dr. Addie Reinhard: and it was all written like in a number format, but still it was like, I didn't know you all were even doing this.
And now I'm getting real defensive because like, I didn't realize and the other vet got these scores and I'm only at here. And so I think yeah, just
Dr. Andy Roark: You got to see what the other vets got?
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Just one other vet, so.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, the comparison is the thief of Joy.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: So be careful about comparison, especially if you have more than one, you know early career vet be careful about asking to let the person know what feedback you're getting and make sure they're okay with that. So they're prepared. Make sure you use lots of positives. We're fragile creatures.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes, we are. Yes, a lot of, there's some fragile egos. And again, myself included in the pile. there's, you know,
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Yeah, it's providing feedback regularly that's small is gonna help much more than here's all of this for you to process, so.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I, I'm going to write a little article about this, but I just had interaction with a young veterinarian who is crushing, like she is amazing. And she got the first client that didn't want to see her. And like, it has been devastating. I mean, I'm just like, you have all of this positive feedback, all of, you know, you're doing all these things well, like you get so much positive feedback, but the idea that there's a client that does not want to see her is absolutely cutting her and I'm just, I'm good.
I don't know who needs to hear it. Every great veterinarian that I know. Has got a client who won't see them. Like, every great veteran I know has, there's someone who just will not let that person see their pet. And like, I know some amazing vets, and they've all got that client. And so, it's just, it's part of being, it's part of being human and working with other human beings.
It doesn't matter how amazing you are. But boy, it, I think everyone is devastated the first time they get a client who's like, I don't want to see, do not schedule with Dr. Roark. I'm like, Oh, fragile creatures.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: It hurts. I've had a couple of those, and yeah, it always you try not to take it personally, but it's impossible not to. I was gonna add one more thing about kind of your structure and your plan for your mentorship program. Don't, I, I think one thing I see people do a lot is thinking they have to do it all themselves.
And there are so many resources out there now CE, development, stuff like what you're doing at Uncharted and what we're doing at MentorVet, like, you don't have to do it all alone. And having, being able to supplement your internal development with, you know, Some external programming you know, that could even look like you know, I know we have like a CE budget, but that could also look like, here's your budget for your mentorship program.
And I know you really are interested in surgical skills. So let's find you a dental CE wet lab to go alongside this. And so I think really remembering that. Especially because we're all so busy right now that you don't have to do it all yourself and leveraging some of these external resources can be really helpful and make the person feel really valued that you're giving them something outside of the clinic too.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I completely agree with that. You know, you and I are good friends. And you know, for people who don't know, but we we are, we, we, we talk on the phone about
Dr. Addie Reinhard: At least weekly, yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: At least weekly. Yeah. Yeah. You were, you were at
my house. You were at my house eating sandwiches last weekend. yeah. And so you and I, you and I are tight. And I think we see, we see the industry through very similar eyes, I think. And we're both huge believers in the power of community and connection. And so, you know, Being able to have people that you can talk to, being able to have people who are willing to be vulnerable and say, yeah, I, I did this wrong when I got started or oh boy, I, I've, I've been there as well.
You know, just, just the ability to kind of, I don't know, to not feel like you're alone and not feel like you're alone surrounded by experts. I think that that I think you and I both both really strongly believe in that. I think yeah. Yeah, I, I, I always sort of say to people, you know, I, I'm not a big believer in the sage that knows everything.
I'm a much bigger believer in that we're all backpackers and I've seen parts of the trail that maybe you haven't seen yet and you've seen parts of the trail that maybe I haven't seen yet, but we should get together and compare our maps and you know, I can give you some encouragement and maybe I can help you not get stuck in the mud hole that I got into.
And but I just, I think that's really important. I don't think our industry necessarily innately. buys into that. I think we were all trained by the sage at the front of the room who
was like, this is how you do it. This is, this is the right way. And so, it's just, I really, I just feel like, Addie, I'm, I'm really appreciate you being here.
I really love, you know, your approach right off the bat of, we need to talk to these people and see what their needs are and see what their interests are and see how confident and comfortable they are. It's that's, that's just meeting people where they are. And it's kind of the essence of what we do at Uncharted.
And it's the essence of what you guys do at MentorVet. And so I just think that's why it's, It's why you and I are such good friends. It's why I admire you so much as a professional and what you're doing at MentorVet.
Dr. Addie Reinhard: Aw, well, thanks, Andy. Yeah, it's always fun chatting with you about industry issues and I'm definitely, I don't know, I have to come to terms with what, what does expert even mean and I, I think that I don't claim to ever be usually an expert in, in most things because there's still so much that I don't know and even talking about this case, like, you know, I think so much of the, the solutions that we have to come up with have to happen locally with the people around us and Yeah, I think take all these suggestions.
Hopefully they helped and, and also know that we're, we're probably not the experts on all of this as well. And so there might be other solutions that, that are good, that, that might be really beneficial, but yeah, always, always enjoy our chats. It's, I always learn something new. So, yeah, thanks for having me on.
Dr. Andy Roark: Awesome. Well, Addie, thanks for being here. Guys, thanks for tuning in and listening. Take care of yourselves, everybody.
And that's what we got. Thanks so much to Addie Reinhard from MentorVet for being here, guys. I hope to see the medical directors out there at our medical director summit on May the 29th. Take care of yourselves, everybody. If you think this episode would help somebody, you know, make sure to send it to them, that's always so kind, or leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts.
Anyway, that's it. See you later, everybody.
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