This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…
You have a teammate who is amazing at their job. They have great skills for the work. They get the job done well, safely, and on time. There is just one, small problem. They seem to have a trainwreck of a personal life and it bleeds into their work life with regularity. How do you find the balance between caring for a coworker and asking someone to do their job? A writer to the mailbag asks us this question and a few more. Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss both have strong feelings on this. Step onboard the bus to Camp Tough Love, friends, and let’s get into this…
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Are you ready? Is your seat belt on? You better buckle up because Andy and I are taking you on a ride to Camp Tough Love. That's right. We got a letter in the mailbag from a practice owner who is asking a question. There's a backstory and we'll get into it. But the question is how do I make a person an employee who doesn't cause us to lose money while still keeping them employed? Andy and I looked at this and said, there's really one answer to this question. And it involves a trip to Camp Tough Love. Let's go. Shall we?
Meg:
And now the Uncharted Podcast.
Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie, let's make it personal, Goss.
Stephanie Goss:
It is personal this time.
Andy Roark:
Ah, it's personal.
Stephanie Goss:
How's it going? Andy?
Andy Roark:
It's good. It's good. I'm questioning whether or not I'm a good person right now.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, why?
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. So, all right, so here it is. I went to the beach with the family. Okay.
Andy Roark:
All right.
Stephanie Goss:
And I decided I was going to spend time on the beach. And so I carried a tent down to the beach and my folding chair, and I set up my tent and I set up my folding chair and I sat down in the folding chair on the sand, above the tide line, looking directly out of the beach. I didn't go swimming. I just sat in the chair, meditating, staring straightforward into the ocean. Right.
Andy Roark:
Okay.
Stephanie Goss:
And it was like nine o'clock in the morning. And there was no one else on the beach
Stephanie Goss:
At the beach. Okay.
Andy Roark:
Yes. And then this old person came walking down, and she was carrying a book and a folded chair.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy Roark:
And she sat down right in front of me.
Stephanie Goss:
Stop it.
Andy Roark:
The whole beach is open, and I am there sitting, and she sat down right in front of me. And then her husband came and he looked at me and then he sat his chair down next to her.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my gosh. No way.
Andy Roark:
And it was like, imagine going to the beach and sitting down to look directly into the ocean. And two people come and sit down in front of you. It's like if you went to the movie theater and you sat down and one other person who's seven feet tall came in, and they took the chair directly in front of yours. And you're like…
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my gosh.
Andy Roark:
And so I sat there, staring at these people in front of the ocean and I thought, “What do I do? Like do I?” I was upset. I was like, this cannot stand. I had a tent and everything. And so I went to them and I said, “Hey, you guys might not have noticed, but I'm sitting right there with this tent, and I'm looking at the ocean and you guys kind of set up directly in front of me. And I know you just have some folding chairs. And so if it would be okay, if you guys wouldn't mind moving a bit.” And they looked at me like I had asked them to leave the beach. And the woman says, ‘Well, wherever we go, we're going to be in front of somebody.” And I said, “There's no one else here.”
Andy Roark:
Look around, it's an empty beach.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
And they didn't really respond. And I said, “Oh, look, okay. I just thought I'd ask.” And they got up and they moved literally 10 feet and sat back down. And then I sat there and I'm like…
Stephanie Goss:
Awkward.
Andy Roark:
I know. And I'm like, am I a jerk? Because they looked at me like what idiot asks people to move on the beach. And felt like maybe I'm terrible. But if I hadn't a tent that I'd set up, then I would just move myself, but anyway. I have wrestled with this for days, and I need to know… My wife comes down and she sits down and I said, “You see those people sitting 10 feet off to the side from directly in front of us.” And I told her the story and she was like, “You should have ignored them.” And I wanted her to say, “Good for you advocating for yourself.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
“Good for you standing up.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
“And just saying what you felt.”
Stephanie Goss:
Please move.
Andy Roark:
Please move. Exactly. She said, “You should have just ignored it.”
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my gosh.
Andy Roark:
She's like, “You could have turned your chair slightly to the side and it would've been fine.” And anyway.
Stephanie Goss:
This reminds me of the, am I the a-hole-
Andy Roark:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
On Reddit.
Andy Roark:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
I really want you to post there.
Andy Roark:
I asked these old people to move, because they sat directly in between me and the water. And again, if I'd been swimming that would've been one thing, but I was literally sitting and looking at the beach and they walked up.
Stephanie Goss:
Some people have no social awareness.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. And usually that person is me, which is why I'm so concerned that I am wrong.
Stephanie Goss:
I don't think you're wrong. I would have done the same thing. And if they hadn't moved, then I would've gotten my stuff. And I would've said, “Okay, you have a really nice day.” And then I would've pointedly moved myself down and reset up my stuff very noisily.
Andy Roark:
To to side?
Stephanie Goss:
To the side.
Andy Roark:
I should have taken my tent and moved around them.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. And made a big production.
Andy Roark:
And set up between them and the ocean. Just a progressive arms race towards the water. And I should have popped a tent in front of the two of them sitting there on the beach, looking at the water.
Stephanie Goss:
That's so funny.
Andy Roark:
I didn't okay. And then I saw them every day for the rest of the time I was at the beach and I was like, “Ah.”
Stephanie Goss:
So yeah, you and I are on the same page. We're a lot alike.
Andy Roark:
Thank you. Because my wife is like, “You should just ignore them. Why didn't you ignore them?” And I'm like, “Because I'm a warrior. That's why.” I'm not a warrior. Because you know conflict and me. I love it. I'll fight with people.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh gosh. So funny. Okay. I'm excited about this one. Today's episode comes from the mail bag.
Andy Roark:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
We had a message from a doctor who is a practice owner and has a veterinary assistant who went to school to become a licensed technician, but never passed their boards. They have some education, they have a strong skillset. They've been with the practice for a long time. And the doctor was like, look, this is a really thorough, smart person. I value them as a member of the team. They have technical skills. They're wonderful at their job. However, they are a train wreck personally. And it bleeds into work almost every day. Everything from tardiness to just being preoccupied and being slow, struggling to get through mental fog. And the doctor said, “Look, we've met numerous times and talked about this because it's progressively gotten worse.” There's improvements that happen after we talk. And then there's the backwards slide after a few weeks.
Stephanie Goss:
And so they said, “I've already done things to make it more equitable for the rest of the team, because it impacts them.” And so-
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
-they've done things like cutting hours, changing them to the later shift, because they can't get there on time in the morning, making them ineligible for bonuses, stuff like that. So they have done some things to try and make it seem more fair to the rest of the team. And this person is still significantly impacting their peers. So they are always running behind. They are slow, especially on days when they're super foggy. Their peers are having to pick up and pick up their cases and step in so that we make sure that the client experience isn't impacted.
Andy Roark:
Yep.
Stephanie Goss:
And so this doctor was like, look, I feel for them. I feel for their personal life and their home life situation, clearly this is something that is impacting them. And I do feel like this person, both technically and personal-wise, has a lot to offer us and our team. And I'm really, really struggling with what to do, because I feel like this person is also a liability, and they're losing us money because they're slow.
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And I'm paying two people to do the work that it should take one person to do. And they're like, I'm in an area where, like everybody else, we need more people. We don't have people beating down our door. And so I feel like I'm kind of stuck in this situation. And so they were just like, look, what do I do with this train wreck?
Andy Roark:
Okay.
Stephanie Goss:
And I was like, Ooh, can't wait to talk about this one with Andy.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. This is a problem that veterinarians would have. I love broken creatures, and my heart tells my entire chest, yeah, I get it.
Stephanie Goss:
I'm so glad. I'm so glad you said that. Because also when I read this, I was thinking, “Oh God, this might be the episode that we do that more people go, are they talking about my practice?”
Andy Roark:
It's like, ah, it's broken. I can save it.
Stephanie Goss:
All right. This is going to be a fun one.
Andy Roark:
I love my people. I love veterinarians. I do.
Stephanie Goss:
Bless their hearts.
Andy Roark:
Bless our hearts. Again, I say this from a place of compassion.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Sometimes compassion, it gets you in trouble in case you haven't noticed. Yeah. Okay. I'm not trying to make fun of this, but this is such a veterinarian problem to have. It's ridiculous. I love it. All right. That's fine. We can fix this. We can fix this. All right.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay so.
Andy Roark:
Here we go.
Stephanie Goss:
Where do we start?
Andy Roark:
From the tough love camp. That's where we start. Camp Tough Love.
Stephanie Goss:
Camp Tough Love. Let's get on the bus.
Andy Roark:
Everybody on the bus. Field trip at a Camp Tough Love. I think this is a summertime bit that we should keep going for good. Camp Tough Love.
Stephanie Goss:
Camp Tough Love.
Andy Roark:
With Andy and Stephanie.
Stephanie Goss:
With Andy and Stephanie. Let's do it.
Andy Roark:
Camp Tough Love. Here we go.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it so much.
Andy Roark:
All right. Camp Tough Love. We start with head space and then we sing our camp song. Let's do head space while I think of the camp song. All right, head space. Okay. All right. Deep breath. All right.
Andy Roark:
You cannot make this personal. You are their boss. You are their boss, and their personal life is not your… Don't take this wrong way. It's not your problem. Right. And I don't mean that, you guys know me, I'm not a jerk. I care about people. I really care about people. And the people who work for me, I care about greatly.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
But I'm not their therapist, and I'm not their parent. And they don't want me to be those things. They are grown ass people. You know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Most of them.
Andy Roark:
Most of them.
Andy Roark:
Yes. This is a personal boundary thing for me. I'm not your parent, and I can't fix your personal life. I can't. It's beyond my reach. It's beyond my power.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Okay. I can give you a good place to work. I can do everything in my power to make a positive work culture. I can do everything I can to try to make this an enjoyable place to be. I can stop the clients from being abusive to you. I can do everything I can to compensate you well, to make sure that you are treated fairly, to make sure you're considered for opportunities and advancements and bonuses. I can try to make this a fun, rewarding place to be. I can try to make sure that you get recognition for the work that you do in our clinic and that you feel appreciated.
Andy Roark:
I can do all of those things, right? I cannot fix your personal life period. Full stop. And so getting into that head space of these are the things that I can do. And I know what I can do. And I know no other things that I can't do. This cannot be personal. I cannot save this person as an individual. Their personal life has to be their business. All I can do is take care of the person when they're in the building. And when I talk to this person, it has to be about their life in the building. And it has to be about the work, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes.
Andy Roark:
Everybody has a personal life.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
We all have personal lives. There are quiet people in your practice that are carrying burdens you would not believe.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And they just don't talk about it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And they don't let it affect their lives. Now, another thing to be important about here is I am not being critical of this person who's struggling in their personal life.
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yes.
Andy Roark:
I went through a period of depression a number of years ago. And let me tell you, it sucks. One star, would not recommend. It's been years, but I've never forgotten, it really freaking sucked.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes.
Andy Roark:
And so there are times that people have heavy burdens and they carry them and they're awful. And so this is not a moral judgment. This is not me saying this person's worthless. They're terrible. It's just me saying, this is a burden they have to carry. And I can only support them inside the confines of this job.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And the work that they do here and support that we're allowed and able to offer to our employees. And so don't think that I'm being negative on the person. I'm really not. I'm being very empathetic to that person. I can be very empathetic and still say, this relationship doesn't work. Many of us have probably dated people who we empathized with them and we cared about them, but it was not meant to be. And I didn't want to be in this relationship. Stephanie's laughing real hard. Do you want to tell us about. Nope. Head shaking. Nope. Okay. That's a bit that will not be on-
Stephanie Goss:
That's an uncharted after dark.
Andy Roark:
Gotcha.
Stephanie Goss:
No. We are on the same camp bus together here. And the other thing I think about not making it personal, is that not taking it personally and not making it personal is that I can't control anything that happens in their personal life. I can't control them as a person. I can't control their home life. I can't control any of the circumstances. I can have all the empathy in the world. I have zero control over that.
Andy Roark:
Correct.
Stephanie Goss:
So from a head space perspective, thus the only place that you should go as a leader is to think about what do I have control over. And the answer to that is, it is about work. If you make it about the work, and you do not make it personal, and you look at what is in your control, you can control. Like you said, the work environment. You can control the rules, the boundaries, the consequences, all of those things are within your control as the leader of a practice. But I cannot control anything outside of work. And so you have got to figure out how to separate those two things. And like you said, spot on, you can do it empathetically.
Andy Roark:
Yep.
Stephanie Goss:
You can do it with compassion. You can do it with kindness. And it doesn't mean that you can skip this step. This is where we're taking the bus straight to Camp Tough Love. You cannot skip this step.
Andy Roark:
Right. Totally. And I want to add to what you said too about control. Because I think this is important, but on the way to Camp Tough Love, we need to talk about the fact that not only do you not have any control over this person's personal life, but you do take liability on just knowing things.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes.
Andy Roark:
I mean, who knows what's going to happen? You could end up being tied up in divorce hearings.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
For what this piece person told to you.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Who knows where this goes.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And it's like, oh, this person talked about it with work. I don't want any part of any of this. That's beyond my responsibilities. It's not fair to ask me to participate in these things. I don't have any control of what the people do in their home lives.
Andy Roark:
And I don't want the responsibility of knowing what's going on.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Andy Roark:
And it's the reason a lot of us have stopped being on social media or friending our employees on social media. I don't want to know.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
It's just better if I don't know. And I am okay with that in that I do want to know what you do at work.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
And I care about what you do at work, and what your performance is like at work. And so, it's really a very clean relationship for me to say, “I care about you. I want to take care of you inside the confines of work. I'm going to do all the things I can to support you as I said before. I don't know what you do after hours and that doesn't affect our relationship and that's not what our relationship is built on”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
I don't say that because I'm a jerk. I don't say that because I don't care, because I would tell you, I very much do care about the person. But it's just, it's the safest thing for me. It is wildly frustrating to me to not have any control and to continue to be negatively impacted by these things. And at some point, again, all of this is on a spectrum, too. If I had someone who I worked with and I've worked with them for years and they're wonderful and they have never had any sort of problems or personal things and they come to me with a personal issue, I'm going to sit down and listen to them and support them.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
Because we have a long history together. And this is the only time this has ever happened that I want to be. I care about this person. I want to be a good friend. It's different when you go, this is again and again and again and again. And it's not a one time thing. This is the way this person is behaving and operating. I cannot be involved in it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
That's a big part of head space for me is all about that stuff.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I was going to say, I think the other big piece for me is you and I talk about assuming good intent, and that is really important here. I think you said something that was really, really important, which is, I don't remember how you said it just now, but you said basically like everybody handles their life differently.
Andy Roark:
Sure.
Stephanie Goss:
And so we have to assume that they are doing the best that they can with what they have within their reach. And so our job is to acknowledge that, to make that assumption and carry out that assumption through our interactions with them, because our job is to help them navigate at work. And so if we are assuming that they are doing the best that they possibly can, and we are doing our job, then it becomes significantly easier to actually handle this. And this is where a lot of us, myself included, struggle as leaders because I will tell you, I can't tell how often the mentality is not one of assuming good intent. And it's just, God, if they could only get their shit together. If they cared about their job. Why wouldn't they fix this? That is not assuming good intent or thinking positively.
Andy Roark:
It's not, but it's a hundred percent understandable.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, totally.
Andy Roark:
Just because
Stephanie Goss:
Absolutely.
Andy Roark:
Think about what this writer has said. They're like, we changed the schedule because they couldn't get her on time.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
We have done these things. They still make mistakes, have to be looked after and they've been removed from calculating bonuses, and it's like the amount of lift that has been made just to make this person, I don't know, in some way able to stay involved in this.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And then person continues to have issues. How do you not get angry? I'm sorry. I would be. And again, that's why I said Camp Tough Love is like, you, dear writer have the patience of Job.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
I never would've made it this far.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
I've always been like [inaudible 00:20:27].
Stephanie Goss:
Five years. That is impressive.
Andy Roark:
Exactly right. And so to Stephanie's point, you shouldn't assume good intent. I also understand how hard that would be because at some point it gets hard. People ask all the time. It's funny. We'll talk about assuming good intent. And people always come in and say, “Andy, how do you assume good intent over and over and over again in the same person.” And I go, “That my friend is a fair question and that is much more challenging.” And so I, a hundred percent, I do want to give grace to people who would struggle to assume good intent. That is what we need to do. But also feel seen if you go, “Oh my God, that's really hard.”
Andy Roark:
I want to clarify what the job is as well. And you and I have talked about this before and here's the Uncharted philosophy on management and leadership. Your job is not to make this person happy. Your job is not to keep this person on the team. Your job is not to do whatever the clients want.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
Your job, my friend, is to balance the needs of the clients, and the staff, and the doctors, and the management, and the owner corporate team or whatever.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Andy Roark:
And you are a juggler, you are a balancer. And you need to maintain that balance. And so head space is, do you think that everything is in balance based on what we've been told? Are we balancing the needs of the individual assistant/ technician? Are we balancing the needs of the rest of the paraprofessionals? Are we balancing the needs of the doctors who are working with this person? Are we balancing the needs of the pet owners who are waiting extended periods of time and who are suffering from mistakes being made?
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
And I would say, I'm not convinced those things are in balance.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Again, I think a lot of managers think they need to fix all the problems. And I would say that is impossible.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
There are mutually exclusive problems where if you fix them for one person, you make them worse for another person. And that's just life. That's compromise. That's not being all things to all people.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And you can't be all things to all people.
Stephanie Goss:
No.
Andy Roark:
And so balance is the key. Are you achieving balance? And the last thing I always say when we get to the gates to Camp Tough Love, they have an inscription across the top of the gates. And as the doors swing in, and our fun bus rolls into Camp Tough Love, the inscription across the top says, “abandon all hope.”
Andy Roark:
It does not. It says, “what is kind,” is what it says. The inscription over the gates to Camp Tough Love says, “what is kind.” What I mean by that is, what is kind to the staff, to the doctors, to management and to the individual. And I'm not sure that we've been kind to the staff, the doctors, the clients. I think we've been very kind to the person who's struggling with personal problems. I'm not convinced that we have been kind to the people who need to put up with this. And at some point we need to go back to balance and saying, “Where is the greatest total net kindness?” And it may very well be going on without this person. In fact, I think that's probably where we're going.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. The tough love bus has arrived. I would agree with that. Do you think that we should make a stop here on the bus and then [inaudible 00:23:59].
Andy Roark:
Let's gas up.
Andy Roark:
Let's gas up.
Stephanie Goss:
Because this is going to be action packed ride here to the end.
Andy Roark:
I can feel it coming. There's going to be a cookout. We're going to make crafts.
Stephanie Goss:
Andy's going to sing the camp song for us.
Andy Roark:
We are. We're all going.
Stephanie Goss:
We're rolling on to Camp Tough Love.
Andy Roark:
That's exactly it. I'm going to frantically write the tough love camp song.
Stephanie Goss:
Let's take a break so you can do that.
Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss, you got a second to talk about Guardian Vets.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. What do you want to talk about?
Andy Roark:
I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed, because the phones never stop ringing. And I'm sure you hear from these people as well. Our caseload is blowing up and the doctors are busy and the phones just don't stop.
Stephanie Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.
Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about Guardian Vets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip the switch and Guardian Vets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk, and they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments and give them support. And it really is a God send.
Stephanie Goss:
Pre-pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after hours call help. But at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that they are offering help during the daytime as well. Which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices, because everybody is shorthanded. Everybody is drowning in phone calls. And so we talk about it. We've talked about Guardian Vets, a lot on the podcast and every time we do, we always get somebody who says, “What is that?”
Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with Guardian Vets, if you think that you could use some help on the phones or up at the front desk, check them out, it's GuardianVets.com. And if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So go check it out. GuardianVets.com.
Andy Roark:
All right, we are back. We are back. We've taken a break, and I have frantically written the Camp Tough Love camp song.
Stephanie Goss:
Can't wait.
Andy Roark:
Which we can sing now at the end of the episode. I think we'll sing it at the end of the episode.
Stephanie Goss:
The end of the episode. Okay. Okay. I like it.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. All right.
Stephanie Goss:
So we've gassed up and we're ready to go. We've got to stop being the wonderful, kind-hearted veterinary community that we are, and stop looking at people like, “Oh, a pretty broken thing I can fix.”
Andy Roark:
I know. And I say that in all jest, but the truth is that we are a kind-hearted community.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And we're going to be a kind-hearted community. So I took my daughter. I think I told you, I said, I think on the last episode I talked about-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
-taking my daughter to the clinic and everything died when she was there.
Stephanie Goss:
Poor kid.
Andy Roark:
I spoke to my father who's a retired surgeon, because he asked me about it, and I said, “I took Jacqueline, and everything died. And I worry that she's going to be a bit too kind-hearted for this job.” And my dad said, “I've seen a lot of physicians trained over the years.” And he said, “It's always been my impression that you can teach people to be professional, but you can't teach them to be kind.” And so-
Stephanie Goss:
True story.
Andy Roark:
-hire a kind person and teach them to be professional because you can't train a professional person to be kind necessarily.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Andy Roark:
And I thought a lot about that, and I think there's truth to it. I think that veterinarians are a big-hearted people and our culture is big-hearted.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
I think that we can still be big-hearted and we can learn some professional boundaries to take care of ourselves. For me, it helps to believe not that I'm not being kind. It helps me to recognize that I am being more kind to the whole group by taking care of the rest of the staff and the clients-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
-and our team as a whole. And so I don't believe in withholding kindness. I believe in looking at what course takes the greatest kindness. And sometimes the most kind thing you can do for the group, feels unkind to an individual. But ultimately those are the choices we have to make as leaders.
Stephanie Goss:
Because the job's about balance.
Andy Roark:
Right.
Stephanie Goss:
I agree with you. So for me, our action plan starts with kindness actually, which is, look, we care about these people. So the first thing that we have to do when we have someone who is having challenges on a personal level that are impacting their work, is that we have to, we have to provide kindness and distance. So the first step of this is we have to connect them with resources. So I feel like sometimes you and I feel like broken records, but there has to be an employee assistance program in place. There has to be some sort of resources, whether you employ a local therapist to provide services to your team, whether you use an actual employee assistance program, there has to be the ability for your team to have access to resources.
Stephanie Goss:
Because your job, as the practice leader, if you don't work at a big corporation that has an actual HR department, your job as HR is to remove as many of the stressors and barriers as possible for your team when they're at work. And this is not about flaking out, is not about not holding them accountable. This is about building trust and following through with them and asking them things like, “Is there anything that you need? Is there anything that I can do as your boss to help you feel your best and do your best at work? What can I do for you on a personal level that is going to help support you here at work?”
Stephanie Goss:
Because the second piece of that is do not be a therapist. It is not your job. Remove yourself from that situation. You want to be aware. You want to be kind, you want to be brief. And most of us forget that third part. Most of us lean too much into the kindness and too much into the awareness. And we know far more, detail-wise about our team's personal lives than we should. And this is where I want to ask them that question. I want to ask, “I there anything that I can do?” I want to ask, “What's going on? How are you doing? I'm concerned about you. I've noticed some changes, and I'm worried. What's happening?” And then you want to keep that period where they share with you brief. And so that's where a lot of us struggle, because a lot of the times we spend more time with our team at work than often we do at home with our families.
Stephanie Goss:
And so when somebody on my team that I've worked with for an extended period of time, that I care about starts pouring out their heart. It is really hard for me to pump the brakes and hit the brakes at the stop sign and say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, okay. I want to hear all this. I want to support you. But I can't.” That is a really hard move for most of us to make. And so too often, we lean away from the brevity here, and we lean into letting them spill out on us. And the best thing that we can do is say, “This sounds like a lot, and I want to support you. And the best way for me to support you is to get you some professional resources. So let's talk about what I can do. Can I provide you with therapy services? Can I refer you to an EAP? Can I refer you to an attorney?” If they're having challenges on their personal life and they need legal. What are those resources? Because it's not your job to be their therapist. And that's where the kind-hearted, loving, amazingly wonderful community that we are. That's where bites us in the every time.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Well here's the truth about boundaries. Often, maybe even most of the time, setting boundaries is not about saying no. It's about clearly describing what you're willing to say yes to.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And those are different things.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
When a client needs handholding, which some clients really do. I want that client to feel like they have access to me within the boundaries that we have set out. Meaning you can leave messages and I'll respond to you. I've introduced you to my technician who is a wonderful point of contact and who will be in touch with me and can answer your questions. And she's here on the days that I'm not here. And I will call you first thing when I get back in. Things like that. I don't say no, I'm sorry. I'm not available after 6:00 PM. And you can't call me on the weekends. I tell you when I can talk to you.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
The same thing is true here. I don't want to say, “Look, stop. I don't want to be involved in your personal life.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
Or I'm not able to help you in your personal life. I want you to get help in your personal life. And I want to be supportive of you, and here is how I can do that.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
And I put them into our better help program, into our EAP, into whatever. Here are the resources that we have. And then I can give them those resources, but I'm not trying to be those resources. That's just boundary setting. And I think a lot of us need to do that and set those boundaries when it comes to our employees personal lives.
Andy Roark:
And again, for the Uncharted team, we have Better Help as part of our employment package. And it's just something that we do. And it's because I want people to use it when they need it. It's something that's there that I believe in. And it's because I care. And also, because I'm not a therapist and I want to be supportive, but at the same time, I don't want to be involved in these types of personal issues as our team continues to grow, it's just not feasible and possible.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
And so a lot of this is in order to have boundaries, you have to have alternate routes to support people.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And I really think that's the trick that people miss. You need to be able to say, “Here's what I can do for you.” And then you need to give it to them. And then you need to be ready to move on, because you said, “This is the outlet for support for your stuff. And now let's talk about getting back on track with the caseload that we have.” And not that abruptly, but you get my point. As far as, at some point, I'm going to provide you with the resources to do with as you will, and I want you to use them and I'll encourage you to use them, but beyond that, again, this is not my job when it comes to balancing someone's personal life. And I don't want it to be my job.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think this is where the wheels fall off for a lot of people, because we get sucked into the empathy and the compassion that our field possesses in spades. And we see people on our team hurting, and we hear pieces, whether we're hearing it directly from the person or from the team. We have empathy, and we have kindness, and we care, and we want to help support them.
Stephanie Goss:
And the second piece of this. Can't just be, here's some resources get some help, right? This is where too many of us, myself, I've made this mistake repeatedly. I'm right there with you. And we have to learn how to overcome this, and it is very hard. I'm going to be totally honest with you guys, is one of the hardest lessons that I had to learn as a manager, but one of the most important, which is you have to continue driving the bus forward.
Stephanie Goss:
You have to connect them with the resources. There has to be the conversation about how you can support them. And then you have to continue rolling forward because you have to make it clear to them that what is going on at work is the work. And so you can talk about it in the lens of behaviors and specifics that are attached to their personal life that are impacting their work, but you could not make it about their personal life. So for what I mean by that, for example, is if I have someone who this person is struggling and they're consistently late, and they cannot get there on time, it is absolutely okay for me to tell them, “I cannot have someone on the team who is consistently late this frequently. I understand that there are circumstances that may totally be outside of your control on your personal life side that is impacting that. This is a boundary for the team as a whole.” This is where you lean into that balance part. And you have to have the accountability and the follow-up conversation.
Stephanie Goss:
And that's where a lot of us shy away, because we don't like conflict. We lean in too much to the compassion and the empathy and the kindness. And we forget that we have to keep the wheels rolling, and we have to address. This is where Camp Tough Love. We have to have the conversation.
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And we have to talk about how do we hold them accountable? And look, the reality is, from an HR perspective, sometimes this was the case for me on a personal level. Since you and I have worked together, went through a period of time where had some things happening in my personal life that were hugely impactful to me. And it impacted my ability to show up at work with a clear head, dramatically. But one of the kindest things that you did as a boss was to say to me, “I need you to focus on these things that have to do with work, and I'm going to support you. And I am here for you.” You did all of the things to make me feel good on a personal level.
Stephanie Goss:
And sometimes the kindest thing that we can do for that person is asking them, “Hey, this is what I need from you when you're here.” Be really, really clear about what you need and how you need it and asking them to focus. For me, that was a lifeline that work was the only place at that point in time in my life where I felt like I had any measure of control. And so being asked to focus and be intentional about what I was doing was very much a positive thing and a lifeline for me to be able to say, “Here is an outlet. Here is a place where I know what is expected of me. I know what the rules are. I know what the guardrails are.” And it was a very, very positive thing.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think too often as leaders, a lot of us don't go there and don't lean into that, because we're afraid that we're going to add more stress and more pressure to them by saying, “I need you to focus. This is what I need when you're at work. This is the job, and I need you to do it.” And the reality is that a lot of times when people are going through high stress situations, they as humans, it is in our nature to lean into what are the things that we can control.
Stephanie Goss:
And for a lot of people, especially as unpredictable as veterinary medicine is, and as much as we don't know what is going to walk in the door every day, there is great predictability in the work that we do. And just focusing on the next patient that is in front of us and those tasks over and over again. And so that is where I think we have to lean into that, and we have to do our jobs, and make it clear to them that what is happening here at work is about work. It's not about your personal life, can impact, the personal life can certainly have an impact. And you can talk specifically about that if you give them specific, clear, concrete examples, like the last two weeks you've been 15 minutes late every single day. And I've had to start my rooms by myself. And then this impacts the rest of the team and the rest of the schedule in this way. That's a perfectly acceptable way to lay it out for them, because it may be something in their personal life that is impacting that. But it's not about them as a person. It's not about the situation with their life. It's about what is happening here in this building at work.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. Well, thanks for saying that. I really think that, and we use the metaphor a lot where your job is a relationship, in my mind.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
And so the manager, employee relationship, I think having clear expectations in a relationship is really important. And I think both people should be able to say to each other, “This is what I need.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
“This is what I need in this relationship.” And that goes both ways. The employees should be to say, “This is what I need. I need a known job schedule, like a known work schedule. And I need reliable compensation. And I need to be able to see myself advancing in the future.” Whatever their needs are.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Andy Roark:
They should be able to say that and the employers should be able to hear what their needs are. And so it's the same thing here. When we have this employee, our writer, “What are your needs?” And you need to be able to communicate them. And what bothers me a little bit about this and why I say were going to Camp Tough Love is what is required to be on this team.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
To me it doesn't sound like anything. It's like, you can't show up. That's okay, we'll change the schedule. You make mistakes. It's okay, we'll have somebody check your work. Bad attitude. It's all right. We'll just take you off the phones. There is no requirement to be on the team from what I can tell from this brief writing.
Stephanie Goss:
[inaudible 00:41:15] it hurts.
Andy Roark:
It is exactly right. And it's because of they are so kind and wonderful and their caring. You have got to decide what it means to be on your team.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And then you have to look at the person in the eyes and say, “I understand you're struggling. I want to support you. And here are some options that we have to support you through work.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
When you're here at work, these are the things that I need.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
This is what I need.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And it's non-negotiable.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And the big thing that I kind of come back to on this is the writer says, “It's really hard to find people.” And that's a real challenge. And they say, “That would be a hardship, letting this person go.” But let me ask you, “What is the hardship of keeping this person? How are other people being impacted by this person continuing to be on your team?” I promise you, there is an impact that is actively happening right now, in that regard. I'm not convinced that what's happening now is better than if that person was not there.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Because think about it. You're so spot on. What is the impact of letting this one person go? That's what we focus on. I would challenge all of you to think about what would be the impact if two more of your team left, because they couldn't deal with it anymore.
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Now you're not short one person. Now you're short two people, and you still have all of the problems that come along with this person. And so this is where, what is kind, is so important. And what we talked about before that, which is your job is balance. It is your job as the leader to think about, how do I balance these things out? And sometimes the kindest thing and the most balanced thing is to take care of the team as the whole.
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And look at the expectations for the team as a whole and say, “Hey, it's time to call a spade, a spade. The other five members of this team, or 10 members of this team, or whatever are working together. And we're not having these problems. There is a common denominator here.” And the kindness is to say, “These are the standards. These are the things that you are not doing. These are the expectations I have. These are the ones that are not being met.” Here's how, here's why, giving concrete examples, and then having the conversation with them about like, “Look, you're not measured at work by your personal life. I don't care about your personal life. There is no judgment from me. There is no impact from our perspective of your personal life, except for you have got to be able to do the work. And if there are things that are impacting you, that are keeping you from doing the work, that is what I need to know, because I need to help you make a decision. And the decision may be that this is not the right time and the right place for you.”
Stephanie Goss:
And so often that's the giant elephant in the room-
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
-that nobody wants to say. And I get asked that question a lot because one of the things that I am not a kind of person who brags. Andy will attest to this.
Andy Roark:
That's true. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I hate the attention. I blush profusely. If you ask me to tell you things that I do well, and I'm tomato red, as I'm about to say this, but one of the things that I have always done really well in my personal life and in my professional life is be kind. And I have had the ability to navigate those hard conversations and have repeatedly had conversations with team members where I have looked at them and said, “Because I care about you, I think, and we could discuss this, but I think the best thing for you is not here.”
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
This place, this job, the role, the environment, whatever it is, is not a fit for you right now. And I want to help you be in a better place.
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Because right here, right now, that is not happening. And I have had that conversation and have had the tears and even sometimes the unexpected anger or other emotional response that comes from recognizing that, and working through that. And I also will say that the reason that I feel good about it and know that it is something that I do really well is because I have managed to retain relationships with the majority of those people that I have had conversations with. And in fact have had some of them come back to me and say to me afterwards, “At that time, I was pissed. I hated you. I was so angry. And looking back now, with the perspective that I have, it was the right decision. And I appreciated you being honest enough to say look, this is something we should talk about because you're really struggling here. And I don't want to see you struggle, because I care about you as a person.”
Stephanie Goss:
That is the hardest thing to do. And I get asked a lot, “How do you do that?” And I will tell you guys, “There's no magic bullet. There's no recipe. I'm not more innately good at it than anyone else. It just comes from practice and leaning into the…” It is uncomfortable. It is so uncomfortable. My palms still sweat every time I have to have one of those conversations.
Stephanie Goss:
And this is where we're sitting in front of the campfire at Camp Tough Love, because the reality is it's never going to get easier. It's never going to be easy. It doesn't mean that you can avoid it. Because you can't. And I will tell you that if you do bury your head in the sand and you avoid it and you keep… And bless their hearts, for this practice owner who has tried all of these things and I'm just like, man, you have hung in there for so long. And for a lot of people, they're like, I feel like I'm giving up on this person. And it is not about giving up.
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
It is about being kind and being supportive of them, even if that means that the best place for them is not on your team.
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Because the kindest thing is to take care of the rest of your team.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. It's the sunk cost fallacy. It's like, we've worked so hard to keep this person here for so long. If we go now, it'll all be lost. And we go, look, if this person walked in the door right now and asked you to hire him, would you do it? The answer is, “Hell no.” The other question… Yeah. It's trivia night at Camp Tough Love.
Stephanie Goss:
Hell no.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. It's trivia night at Camp Tough Love. Would you rehire this person right now, today? No. How would you feel if you were on a team where there was a person who no matter what drama they brought was never let go. They were just moved around and schedule changed and protected again and again, and again. Would you want to be on a team where that was how things worked? The answer is no. High performing teams want to have high performing people.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And at some point they want to believe that people get cut if they don't perform. Because I don't want to be on a team where you cannot be a big enough distraction that you get removed from our team. No matter what, we'll keep you here. I go, “Ugh. That sounds like a lifetime of headaches for me.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
As the person who is really conscious about getting their work done. And so anyway, I get back to balance for the last time. That's all I got. Have you got anything else?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. No. For me, where we end is our practice owner asks how do I make this person an employee that doesn't lose us money and keep them employed. And I would say that this whole episode has been soap boxed by you and I saying that 99% of the time, the answer is you can't.
Andy Roark:
You don't have the power.
Stephanie Goss:
You don't have power [inaudible 00:48:50]. It's not in your control. And I will also tell you that as a manager, I have had the tough love conversation, and people can change. And sometimes it is being kind and being open and honest about the impact that someone's behaviors are having on work and focusing truly on what is in their control and what is in your control about the work environment. Sometimes having that conversation is enough and the person can actually change. And so I won't say that this person can't become that employee, but what I will say is you can't make that happen.
Andy Roark:
Correct.
Stephanie Goss:
Your job is to make the conversation happen and then have an actual action plan and a timeline for what that change has to look like. And it cannot be another five years, another 10 years. We're talking about have the conversation-
Andy Roark:
30 days.
Stephanie Goss:
30 days. And if you make the 30 day mark, what does the next 30 days look like? I've been in recovery for a long time. You take it one day at a time. And when you get through that day, it's the next day. And it's the same kind of thing with someone who has long-term challenges like this, you have got to set clear expectations and a short time period and then make a plan for what does the next follow up look like. And so I think it's not all without hope. I think you can change. You can help the environment change for this person. And so I would say to our writer, if you have not had that very clear, very kind, what can I do to support you because here are the expectations. And if you cannot start meeting those expectations, we are going to have to talk about change. If you have not had that conversation, I would 100% have that conversation.
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
But you cannot control whether you can keep them employed. That is within their control.
Andy Roark:
100 percent. You cannot fix their personal life. Nope. Nope. Can't. Nope. Don't. Let it go. All you can do. If you really want to keep this person and you want to fight to the end, you can go to this person as Stephanie said, and you can tell them what you need for them to continue to be part of the team. And you can mean it, and you can give them 30 days to get on board, and there has to be a radical change. And then that will have to continue.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And if we start slipping back into this, we are going to have to end this relationship. It can't be a quick correction and then back. There needs to be a 30 day, a 60 day, and a 90 day check in to see where we are, and you're going to have to be serious about, “Hey, look, I like you. I want you to be here. This is what I need from you. You either going to have to step up and get focused and deliver when you're here at work, or you're going to need to go somewhere else because we can't continue to carry you here.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
And that doesn't mean I don't like you. I do like you, and I want you to be here, but you are going to have to want to change and you're going to have to make that change.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
And so we got to do that. And with that friends, it's time to sing our Camp Tough Love song. Our camp song. Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
Let's do it.
Andy Roark:
Well, it's Camp Tough Love, like drinking dish suds. See the creation of a termination. Get ready for a safe talk. You might need a stress walk. That's what we do at Camp Tough Love.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Yeah. That was amazing.
Andy Roark:
Thank you.
Stephanie Goss:
You're getting a standing ovation from all of the listeners. That was-
Andy Roark:
That's right.
Stephanie Goss:
-amazing.
Andy Roark:
Thank you. It was. We had literally 45 seconds during our break and that's what I got.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it so much. Kelsey Beth Carpenter needs to make our musical dreams come true with that one.
Andy Roark:
I honestly had that thought as well. I was like what if we got Kelsey to do this, and then we would just drop it into episodes.
Stephanie Goss:
That would be amazing.
Andy Roark:
And now it's time to go to Camp Tough Love. And then the song comes on. Oh my God.
Stephanie Goss:
This is the beginning of something magical on the Uncharted podcast.
Andy Roark:
If only we had access to Kelsey Beth Carpenter and a recording budget that would allow for such ridiculousness.
Stephanie Goss:
If only.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. If only.
Stephanie Goss:
If only.
Andy Roark:
All right.
Stephanie Goss:
Have a wonderful week, friend.
Andy Roark:
See you guys.
Stephanie Goss:
We'll see you again at Camp Tough Love. I am sure.
Andy Roark:
That's right. Al, you old people, get out of the way. Move down the beach. You can't sit in front of Camp Tough Love.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this. Come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mail bag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag. Or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care of everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
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