This week on the podcast…
This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss are answering a question you asked in the mailbag! We received an email from an associate veterinarian who joined their practice after working in at as a regular relief vet. They thought they found their home clinic but now that they have settled in, they are finding almost the entire team has turned over since they started. Some left on their own and recently, even though the team was down to a skeleton crew, the practice owner made the decision to fire 2 more team members. This associate is struggling hard with the decision and wondering how they go about addressing their concerns with the practice owner that if they don't figure out how to make some changes, there won't be any team left. They are also wondering how to tell when it might be time to give up and find a new home clinic, if this really isn't the right place for them. Andy and Stephanie really enjoyed talking through this one from a variety of angles. Let's get into this…
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The Practice Manager Summit – March 23, 2023
We know you are unique. Managing the business. Fielding never-ending questions from the team. Fixing broken printers, again. You wear more hats than anyone else in the practice. All of these look great on you, of course. But do you ever wonder “Am I actually in charge if I don’t own the practice? How do I manage the endless responsibilities of this job with limited power and resources? How can I keep growing professionally?”
If you’re itching to talk to people who really get what it means to be a manager, this is the event for you!
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss:
Hey friends, this is Stephanie Goss and I'm bringing you another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are diving deep in the mailbag. We had so much fun doing this one. It was a question that has come to us from an associate doctor who is really struggling with some of the decisions that their practice owners is making in the recent past about terminating some of the members of their team. They've had a lot of turnover and this doctor is really struggling with why this turnover is happening. They understand that it is the owner's private practice and they can, at the end of the day, do exactly what they want with it. They're really wondering when and how do I speak up about this because it's really bothering me. We've got some great stuff to unpack here. Let's get into it.
Meg:
And now the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only Stephanie should I stay or should I go now Goss?
Stephanie Goss:
That is very, very good one. How is it going Andy Roark?
Dr. Andy Roark:
If I stay there will be trouble. And if I go it might be trouble maybe it's switched around anyway-
Stephanie Goss:
Maybe it's always trouble when I'm involved.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's definitely, that's a song about picking the better of two bad options it's what I think it is.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, how's it going?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh boy, it's crazy talk. It's wild.
Stephanie Goss:
I feel like I've seen your face a lot lately.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes. You and I just spent five days together from sunup until well past sundown-
Stephanie Goss:
Well past sundown.
Dr. Andy Roark:
At the VMX conference, yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
It was so fun. It was so good to see everybody back in person and to feel that pre-pandemic energy and excitement about veterinary medicine, about change and growth in our community. And I had a great time.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I had a mixed time. There were things that were great and there were things that were hard for me. And one of the things that was hard for me was that Stephanie Goss was packing lecture rooms until people could not get in. I'm talking, it's like, rooms that seat 800 and they're turning people away. I'm not kidding. I went up to the door and they were like, “You can't go in there.” And I said, “Do you know who I am?” And they were like, “We do not know or care at all.” And so I saw Eric Garcia, who's the program chair, and I was like, “Eric, they won't let me get in there.” And Eric Garcia goes, “Official NAVC business, we're just going to check a room count, oh, and he's with me.”
So that's how I got in to see, the only way I could get into Stephanie Goss was to phone a friend and get him to essentially lie to the security people so that I could watch you do your thing. And then no less than two dozen people stopped me in the hall to say, “I didn't see you in the program. Are you not in the program?” And I wasn't. I did not do any speaking as the first time in forever. I'm not exactly sure how it happened, but it just shaped up that way. And then I'm watching, basically what it was, you know when your friends are like, “Hey buddy, you want to come and do this awesome thing?” And you're like, “No, I'm going to be responsible because I have a lot of things going on in my life and my plate is really full and I'm going to stay in tonight and get my work done.” And then they send you drunken selfies from the greatest party in the history of the world. That's basically my experience with this conference watching Goss just crush-
Stephanie Goss:
Poor Andy.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I know. I literally asked someone at one point is like, “Are popup lectures a thing?” They're like, “Like flash lectures?”
Stephanie Goss:
Flash mob in the hallway. Andy Roark lecture in the middle of the hallway. There were plenty of opportunities because there were some lines and you could have just done a flash mob in the hallway.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I could have lectured to people in line for other things. I said that to somebody and they looked at me and they were like, “Yes, that's a thing, it's called street Street preaching.” And it's like, “That's not what I'm going for.”
Stephanie Goss:
That's not the level that you've reached.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, but once they said it, I was like, that is exactly a picture in my mind. I was just imagining street preaching that went really well which is probably what every street preacher imagines and how they get started.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man. Yeah, we had a good time. It was good to see everybody and meet some new people. And the future of veterinary medicine is bright and I'm here for it. I'm excited, it's going to be a good year. It's going to be a real good year.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I am super optimistic for this year. I really am. Last year was a tough year in a couple ways, but man, things are looking pretty darn good. Life goes on, one foot in front of the other. I see a lot of opportunity ahead for vet medicine. I think my wife and I have gone through some health stuff and man, we're on the other side. All that stuff is done. It's all behind us. It's looking good, buddy.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, I know. And April is just a few short months away and we're going to get to see our whole Uncharted crew in Greenville and it's just creeping closer and closer. Florida was just a little taste of sunshine. And then we're going to be in Vegas in a few weeks and it's like there's all these little milestones creeping towards being all back together with our Uncharted crew in April. And I'm so excited for that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Boy, it's almost, it's half sold out already.
Stephanie Goss:
I know.I know. That is crazy to me. We have sold out every year, but this is the fastest that it has moved.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, and we pushed the capacity up this year. We're like, if we open the door to this closet and then we let people sit in there, we can get more like that's what we did.
Stephanie Goss:
Andy's going to put me in the closet.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It still hurts, Goss can get over here.
Stephanie Goss:
You do it when I'm working from home, you put me back in the closet. So how is that different when we're at the Westin?
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's not my fault the best acoustics in your house are in a closet.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh man, we're off the rails already.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, okay, now let's start to get into this. This is a fun one. This is a good one.
Stephanie Goss:
But if you want to come hang out with us in April and meet the Uncharted community, you should sign up because we are already halfway sold out and it's only January 20th when we're recording this. So if you've been thinking about coming and you haven't already bought a ticket, you definitely should.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, you don't even have to do that because you and I are doing our development path where people work with us every other week. If you're an Uncharted member, you can jump in with me and Stephanie and Maria Pirita. Every other week we get together and we work on a topic and we work on part of the practice and it's us. So I'm super excited about, again, talk about 2023 being a great year, we've never done this before, but if you're an Uncharted member, you can jump on a Zoom call with me and Stephanie and just we're getting to work and it'll be every two weeks. And yeah, we're going to be with you through the summertime at least trying it out, seeing how it goes. But my plan is to hopefully keep doing it for a long time.
Stephanie Goss:
All right. So today we've got a good one I think in that we had somebody write into the mailbag and when I read this one I was like, oh, this is one of those you can lead horse-to-water conversations. So we had a vet who was super excited, they had been doing some relief work and found a practice that they really thought that they gelled with. And so they decided, okay, I've done the relief vet thing maybe I want to go back to being an associate vet. And so they agreed to work with one of the practices they had been working with and that started last year and since that start, middle of last year, not like the end of December last year. And so they've been there a while. And in that time almost the entire team has either been let go or has chosen to leave and new team members hired.
So they've had a turn almost completely in the team since this doctor came on board. They went from multi-doctors, multiple licensed technicians, down to only two licensed technicians. And so recently one of the techs quit and one of the CSRs was let go. And the conversation with the team was about personality conflicts with these people from the practice leadership. And this is a private practice, it was a practice owner, but you and I were talking about this before we started and it's totally applicable to any leadership in the hospital really. It doesn't have to just be a private practice because we've both seen this happen in situations where you've got a medical director or non-practice owner leading the helm. But basically this practice owner is having personality conflicts left and right with people and has been choosing to part ways with people. And in this case, the technician and the CSR were putting in effort to take feedback, get better at their jobs, try and meet the expectations that were being set with them.
And so this associate doctor is like, “Look, I am really struggling here.” Because these are two people who both brought great skills to the table. They were outgoing, they wanted to help, they wanted to bring more clients in the door, they wanted to take care of their patients. The tech in particular was great with aggressive patients. And so this associate's like, “Look, I understand that it's a practice owner's practice and they can basically do whatever they want, but firing somebody for what feels like perspective-wise to the associate doctor, mild personality disagreements feels like a really poor choice, especially when we're in a place where good team members are hard to find right now.”
And so they were like, “Why aren't we training? Why aren't we counseling? Why aren't we doing some management?” And so this associate was like, “Look, I've had a lot of leadership training and I've done a lot of CE in this area because it's something I'm interested in and everything about this does not sit well with me.” And so they were like, okay, would you address the practice owner about these things as an associate vet? And if so, how do you go about basically questioning their management decisions and if the staffing of the hospital seems to be based on how well you get along with the practice owner, whether you can become buddy-buddy or not, versus their skills and what they bring to the table. If this was you, would you guys be looking for another practice?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. All right. This is a great question. There's a lot to unpack here. So let's start with headspace as we do. So the first thing that I would say here is assume good intent. And this is a good healthy way to think about it. The truth is why does this happen? We don't know. I don't know why these people got let go. I don't. Is it possible that there was that they-
Stephanie Goss:
More to the story?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, that there's more to the story? Of course there is. Is it possible that they mildly irritated this practice owner and he or she let them go? It's possible. It's hard for me to really get my head around in today's labor shortage and stuff, but that doesn't mean it's not true. I've seen people do some things I can't figure out. I can't get my brain around. I think the kind thing is to say, I don't know what happened and for HR reasons, this person, I don't expect that they're going to tell me exactly what happened. So I don't know. And I think the reason for that and I say I don't know, is it just stops me from making assumptions and jumping to conclusions that might not be correct. And that's just a safe place for me to pragmatically look at the situation. And at the same time, there's a saying, once an accident, twice a coincidence, three times a pattern. And so if there was an employee that I was like, “Man, that person's great, I have no idea why they got let go.” It's a whole lot easier for me to say, “There's more to this story.” Then that would be my first thought is there's more to the story.
But if it seems to be happening again and again and again, it gets harder and harder for me to be like, “There's more to this story and there's more to that story and there's more to the other story.” At some point there's a common denominator when I go, “Interactions with the practice owner are not going well.” But I think you can balance both of those things of assuming good intent and then also starting to say, “I'm not concerned about this because of it happening once, I'm concerned about a pattern that I'm seeing there.” I think those are both healthy things to hold in your mind at the same time.
Stephanie Goss:
I think that's super fair. And I think the reality is most practices at some point or another go through a complete turn of their team. There are absolutely practices out there that have a longtime team, the whole team has been the same for 10, 20, even 30 years or the vast majority of the team. And for the average multi-doctor practice, the reality is turnover happens. It happens for a whole lot of reasons that have nothing to do with performance. People move, people have babies, people leave the field, all of those things. So it's not atypical even for your average practice of size to go through a turn. And for this associate vet, they're sitting in the position where the turn happened, and they're wondering was this a one-time thing? Like you said, was this once an accident? This is a thing, it happened, we're moving on.
And now they're continuing to see things that make them think that it's a pattern. And so I can totally understand being in this headspace of like, this doesn't look so good. And I think this associate is in a good headspace because they're asking great questions and they are like, “I don't want this to be the case. I want it to be different. I don't know if I can make it different, but I want it to be different. And so I'm asking the questions.” Which I think even if you can't completely assume good intent because you are noticing some patterns, I think it's a good healthy head space to be.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree. And I think the other part of perspective is a little bit different, but kind of the same. You do and I'm just I'm so happy with this letter, just the perspective of the person's writing I think is just so good. But they're very measured and they're looking at it in a very smart non-emotional way, which I think is exactly how you want to approach big questions like this. But it is possible to hold in your mind and recognize this is not my circus and that's going to happen whether you're in private practice or corporate practice as well. It's like there's going to be decisions that are made that you are not invited to the table to make. And you have to be okay with that. And you have to say, “That decision was made above my pay grade.”
Exactly. And so you need to make peace with that. And at the same time you can also be honest and own the fact that the decisions made above your pay grade will affect you and therefore you do have a reason to care about this. And so just saying, “It's not my business. I am out.” You might be out of the decision and that's true and you have to be comfortable being out of this decision. However, to your practice owner, I would say, yeah, you don't need to include your associate in this decision, however, you do need to be painfully aware that the decision you make will affect your associate veterinarian. And I expect he or she to make decisions based on what their circumstances are. So I don't know if I'm explaining that very well, but basically I'm saying from a perspective standpoint, I would not be resentful that I was not included in these decisions. I think that that's to be expected and I can also have a strong opinion on this based on how I am affected by the decisions that are happening.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure, sure. Yeah, it impacts your ability to do your job and so it makes sense that you would potentially have feelings about the impact that it has to you for sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Exactly. Yeah. And so going on from there in the head space, I get to ask myself, how do I feel about this and what do I want to do from here? And I think that's exactly where the associate should be. It's not resentful that I was included, not assuming bad intent, but still saying, “I am looking at reality around me and I have concerns, and so I am going to strategically plan for myself.” And I think that that's a healthy headspace is kind of where we need to get to.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, totally, totally. That makes sense. And to look at it from the perspective of, okay, this does impact me. I am interested in leadership because I've done some self-development here. I like what I'm doing, I came here for a reason and all of those things adding up to, okay, this impacts me. Is there a place where I can have some influence? And that I think is a good healthy headspace to be because that is a place of hope. It's a place of maybe I could influence or change this situation, which is better, is a place I like to live more than feeling like not my circus, not my monkeys, and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it except sit here and be miserable which is certainly a place from a headspace perspective that you could be sitting at this point in time.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Sure. I've seen a lot of people there and so have you. There's a lot of people who feel helpless in these situations and that may sound simplistic, but I promise you it's easy, especially when it happens over time. At some point people started leaving and you got in your head, I have to carry the load and people continue to leave, and you just doubled down on that thinking without ever stepping back and going, “Wait a second, have my situations changed to a place where just carrying the load might not be a good strategy anymore?” I think that that's really important. I also think that there's not a right answer here just on the information that we have, and I want people to know that, and it's going to be different for everybody in that how exactly are you being affected? Is it people in my practice are leaving, but the main technicians that I work with are the same and my actual work day-to-day is largely unaffected or is it people are leaving and they're the people that I rely on and my work is radically changing?
Those are different scenarios. The other thing is how do you feel about those changes? I know some doctors who want to work highly leveraged across multiple technicians and if their techs start leaving, they're going to be really unhappy. And I know other doctors that don't leverage their technicians, wrongfully so in my mind, but, and going from two technicians down to one technician or going from a technician assistant down to just an assistant, it might not really bother them that much. And we're not here to adjudicate how you use your support staff. My point is just some people are going to feel very differently about that than other people. It's not right or wrong, it's how do you feel? The last part of this really is, so much of it is about the relationship with the decision maker and perceptions of what the future looks like.
And say I'm the associate vet and the practice owner is having these interactions that people are leaving, and I don't really know why, the truth is on the scales do I think this practice owner, this leader is doing their best? Do I think that they're probably making decisions for the right reasons? And if I think that they're, sometimes things are hard, but I'm following a leader who's doing her best and who I believe is truly making these hard decisions. She's making them for the right reasons. I'm more likely to stick with that person than someone who's doing it because they want to bump profitability for the third quarter. You know what I mean? And that's what their driving decision is in my mind. Dude, does the person appreciate me? It's one thing if people are leaving and nobody says anything to me other than, “I guess you got more appointments to see.” Versus them saying, “Hey, I know this is challenging time and I appreciate you and I appreciate the work you're putting in.”
Man, that stuff matters when we're doing the math of what am I going to do? Do they value my input? You don't have to follow my decisions, but I do like to be heard. And I'll just tell you, we teach leaders all the time that making people feel heard and making them feel like they have input that's truly listened to, even if you go a different way, that's a huge part about people being okay with the hard decisions that were made. And you don't have to do what I say, but I pay attention to, did you communicate with me? Did you ask me what I thought or did you check in on me? That stuff matters. Is this somebody who's just had shit luck? And we all know people who have hit a real streak of bad luck. And I go, man, if we're in a tough place just because of bad luck, which happens, that makes me feel different, then we're here because of negligence.
We're here because this person is apathetic, because they checked out, because they're purely focused on personal gain. That stuff matters. And the last thing in all of this is, and I'll just tell you, when you go through periods of really hard work, especially in this case, you're shorthanded and everybody's working hard, I will tell you that one of the biggest difference makers is, do the people in the trenches with you, do they see a light ahead? And if they're like, “Nope, we're shorthanded and I have no reason to believe that that's going to change and this is my new reality.”
Stephanie Goss:
We're going to be shorthanded until the end of time, there's no change.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That is a different emotional experience than we are shorthanded and I believe that we will not be for long and the future will be better and we are going through this period of offloading people who needed to come off of our bus for some reason, and we are actively going to load back on some good people and the days ahead will be brighter. All of those things factor into the equation of how do I behave and what decision do I make going forward? And so I know that's a lot to unpack, but I really just want to say there's not one where I say, “In this situation, the answer is you leave.” I would say, “Boy, there's a lot of nuance here.” But just try to get those things in your head. It can be someone else's decision and you can be affected by it. You can-
Stephanie Goss:
Because I think what you were saying about how it's easier to stick with somebody through the hard stuff when you feel some of those things, when you feel that somebody's appreciating you, when you feel like they're hearing you. And even sometimes I remember vividly a point where I literally had four people quit at the same time within two weeks of each other, all different reasons, I could not control it. And I was devastated. And my team looked at me and they were like, “It's okay. We'll figure it out.” Because they could look at it through that filter you said of sometimes you just have shit luck. Sometimes the person who's been trying to have a baby for two years finally gets pregnant and is like, “I'm not going to work anymore.” Those things happen. And so I think from a head space perspective for me that this is head space and action because when it comes to your point, what are you going to do next?
Are you going to quit? Are you going to leave? Are you going to stay? Are you going to do something about all of those things we're going to talk about when we get to action steps? Looking at it through that lens and figuring out, how do I feel about my relationship with this person and the rest of the team I think is really, really important because you're going to need to, no matter what happens next, no matter what choice this associate vet makes, it's going to be hard. And so being able to look at, I'm doing this and I believe in this, and being able to hold that as your little flame of hope is so so important.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I completely agree. Let's take a break here and then we'll come back and we'll get into the actual action steps of what do we say and how do we say it.
Stephanie Goss:
That sounds great.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, so I love that this person made this job really easy for us by giving us two specific questions numbered one and two. I'm like, I like the way you work. You have clearly put some thought into this. So the first question was, would you address the owner about these decisions as the associate veterinarian and how would you go about questioning their decision? So to me the answer is absolutely yes. If we have so little trust in our relationship that I can't ask you go, “Hey, I couldn't help but notice that no one else works here anymore.” Then you don't have a relationship anyway. And what are you doing there? I'm sorry, at some point this is the elephant in the room and it would be weird for me to not ask you about it. And so I always say, I treat jobs like a relationship and I expect to be treated in a certain way and I plan to treat other people in a certain way. And I expect to be able to ask some questions about where we go.
And I don't take it personally if other people ask me questions about, “Hey, where are we going?” It's just a basic common understanding of what it means to work together with other people. And so no, just me. The big thing is, there's a couple big parts here. There's a difference in challenging the decision that was made and trying to understand what happened.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, I would totally agree with that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's funny how often people screw themselves right there. I'm not going to walk in and make demands. I really don't want to walk in and make assumptions. The two most powerful words in management, and this goes to managing up as well, are what happened? And I just seek first to understand, what happened? And so that I would say absolutely you have the conversation. Absolutely. Because how can you make a decision to go forward without asking some basic questions?
You're totally flying blind. And so I think that's a no-brainer. And so then the question becomes how exactly do you talk to them without them feeling that as they put, you're questioning their decision. The big thing for me is I use phrases like, help me understand, like “Hey, I noticed that we've had another one of our paraprofessionals go out. It feels like there's been a trend of people leaving and I'm wondering if you could help me understand what's going on.” And that's it. And then I would stop talking and that's it. And I would say it exactly like that, “Hey, I just want to want to know what's up and first of all, what's going on and then what the plan is. Can you help me understand and then stop talking?” And let them go.
After I try to get this open up and they say, this is what happened or this is where we are or whatever, the next part for me is going to explain how I am being affected or how I've been affected and what my concerns are about not being able to keep the staff. And I'm not going to say you firing people has done this or that. I'm going to say, “Hey, I know you know this, but it's not easy seeing appointments with half the support staff that we usually have.” And this is me communicating where I'm at because remember, I truly believe this is a relationship and if you and I are in a relationship together, I want you to tell me where you're at and how you're feeling. And I also am going to tell you where I'm at and how I'm feeling.
I'm not going to play the guess what I'm thinking game. And so, “Hey, I'm concerned that this work is getting harder to do and that we might lose more people just because without support around them, their job is harder. I'm worried about us being able to keep people that we have now that we're so shorthanded.” And the last part, the way I frame it is, I'm going to ask for advice or I'm going to ask for guidance on how I should go forward to best support the practice. And so that I know what to expect. So I'm going to say things like, “Hey, can you give me some guidance on what I should be trying to do to keep the staff that we have or to support the practice or help me have a clear expectation of what the plan is from here.” And that's it.
And I just tried to use as much of the actual wording as I would use, but that's exactly how I would say it. It's very soft. It's not argumentative. I'm not trying to put this person on the defensive. I want to know what happened. I want you to know how I'm feeling so that I can just say, “Hey, just giving you the information so you can make future decisions. This is where I'm at, what's the plan? What should I expect? How can I support you in going forward?” And then see what they say and actually really listen to them. And for me, that's the end of the conversation. A lot of people will say, “But then we needed to talk about what if I leave?”
I said, “No, no, no, no, no. You got the information, you got what you need. Go home. Just go home and sit with it and just process. There's no need to have this one conversation this one time. Just sit with it.” And there's nothing wrong with coming back in three days or 10 days and saying, “Hey, I've been thinking a lot about what you said and I just want to be transparent in what my thoughts are.” That's how I would do it. If you decide going in that you would like to be more involved in these decisions, you can even say, “Hey, I think it's important to me going forward, just that I feel like I know what's going on because I felt like the rug was pulled out from under me in some ways. And I'm not saying that what happened didn't need to happen, but it would really help me if I had a little bit more, I don't know, lead time before changes were made, if that's possible.” And just ask for what you need. I guess that's me telling you where I am, but I don't know, what do you think about that? How does that sound when I say it?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, no, I love that. I think for me that my framework is super, super similar. So it's really hard for someone to be immediately on their defense when you start the conversation by asking for help. So whether it's help me understand or “Hey, I need your help, I am struggling, I feel like the team is struggling and I'm sure you must be struggling because we've had a lot of change and we've had a lot of turnover and this seems to be affecting all of us and I want to help you. And so I thought the best way to do that would be for us to start with a conversation, which is why I'm here. I want to understand what is going on and how I can help you and in turn help myself and the rest of the team.” And then to your point, you have to shut up and listen because especially if we have nerves about having conversations like this, our natural tendency is to just keep talking.
But if you don't sit back and let them actually answer, you are missing your opportunity. Because this first, I agree with you, this is not one lengthy conversation. This is a multi-part conversation in that part one is about info gathering because one of the things that you taught me is that there are defining moments in our relationship building with people and people always eventually show us who they are. And so if you have a situation where somebody is under a lot of stress and this practice owner might be in a place where they're just like, I've got a lot. There's a million reasons why this could be happening. And they could take the opportunity to so they could apologize. This is one direction it could go. They could say, “I'm really sorry, I know that this is a lot. This is not where I was intending for it to go, here's what's going on.” And they could fill you in.
They also could be like, “Hey, it is what it is. We're moving on. Thanks for your ask, but I've got a plan and we're working on it. And they could totally shut you out like that.” And it could go a million different shades of gray between those two points. The whole point of this conversation is for you to info gather because I gather from the questions that the associate vet was asking, and this is why I said I love the headspace that they were in. At the start of this, they haven't already quit. They haven't already made up their mind. And so this first conversation is about info gathering. And I think that while we all have moments where we are not our best selves, when you start a conversation with somebody and you ask them how you can help, it tends to be a situation that is going to put someone into a better possible light than others might.
And so take this as a info gathering opportunity and just hear what they have to say and then offer what help you might be able to give like, “Hey, I would love to help with trying to find new team members.” Again, info gathering. And to your point, you might have to marinate and say, “You know what? I would love to really think on this because I'm up for helping. I want to fix this. I like what we're doing. I think that we have some great people and I would like to see us keep the great people that we have and continue to add great people to this team.” There are lots of ways that you can easily walk out of this conversation no matter what is said, but I agree with you, spot on, just hear what they have to say and then close the door to conversation number one.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, exactly. It's amazing how often people say, “All right, what do I do? Option A, I stay option B, I leave.” And I'm like, “How about option C? I get more information about what's going to happen in the near future.” I vote option C. And then ask me again. And that's exactly what we're doing. And then the second question that they ask is, if staffing based on being buddy-buddy with the owner versus skills and merit continues, would you look for another practice? I'd say, all right, first we have made the assumption here that the reason people are leaving is because they're not buddy-buddy with the owner. Which I would say you might be right.
Stephanie Goss:
You have to info gather first.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I would assume good intent and I would info gather to stress test that assumption. But it may be that that's what happens. And so the first thing is I would check that assumption and see if it's really true. The answer to the question is at some point I would do some math. I would look at the pros of staying and subtract the cons of staying. And if I got a negative number, meaning the cons are bigger than the pros, I would leave or if the pros and the cons were about a wash, but there was a pattern towards steady decline, a trend downward, I would say, I know I'm worried about this. And so I would do some math and then, so we talk about this all the time, so much of management, and this is about personal management, this is career management, it's picking your poison.
It's summing up, okay, if I stay here, these are the bad things and if I leave, these are the bad things. And it's looking at, it's not just the bad things today, but it's the bad things going forward. I don't know if that really helps, but really, I guess my basic thing is just at some point you have to sit around and say, “How much do I like being here? And how hard is this?” And then subtract how hard is it to go find another job? And that's why another thing, I can't tell you what the answer is. You are the only one who could say, “There's 10 other practices in a five mile radius that I could absolutely go to. In fact, one of them is trying to hire me and they seem amazing.” That's very different from, “I live in a middle of nowhere and if I leave, I have to move my family to a different place.” There's just different things. And so you have to do that math for yourself, but what are the pros of staying versus what are the cons of staying? What are the pros of leaving and the cons of leaving and see how all that stuff sorts out. The last part I want to say on the math part is, what? What are you smiling at?
Stephanie Goss:
Keep going, keep going. I'll hop in when you're done. Keep going.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay. The last part of it, and this goes back to what we said before of don't get confused and think that your options are, I leave now or I stay forever and the options are really, I stay for a while and I don't say anything. I stay for a while and I work to improve the situation I'm in. I stay with a commitment of reassessing my decision in three months and that helps me sometimes to say, “I'm going to say something and then I'm going to wait until June 1st.” And on June 1st, if my situation is not better than it is now, I am going to leave, I'm going to plan to leave. Sometimes just putting that pinned in the calendar where you're like, “I'm not trapped. I am going to make a decision in the future. Right now I'm going to say something and then I'm going to give it some time to see what happens. That's not a bad strategy and I'm going to make a plan to leave, which is I'm not giving my notice right now, but I'm going to go ahead and start investigating my options.”
And then your last option is leave, “Yeah, I'm out.” You have a lot of options and that's my point in this. And so I think where people screw themselves up is they make assumptions about what's happening and they say, I'm in or I'm out and I go, oh buddy, there's so much more nuance to this. But anyway, that's how I would look at it and lay it down. And generally I tend to come somewhere down around, I do my math, but I'm going to say something and we're going to talk about it and I'm going to ask what the plan is and then I'm going to give them enough time to see if the plan works or if it's actually getting implemented. And then I'm going to circle back around. And when I do my math again, one of the cons of staying is, based on previous performance, I do not believe that things are going to get better and that may be a big knock in the cons side. Anyway, but that's how I would do it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, no, I love it. I love that you were looking on the bright side and I think you're, I agree 100% about doing the math and I think being able to sit back and work those steps depends entirely upon how your info gathering goes. Because again, those are steps that require you to be able to be in a place of positive head space and assuming good intent. Because if you are not, it's really hard to look at it and say, “How am I going to stay?” To working your way through even staying and thinking about the three, I love your idea of three months or giving yourself a timeframe and when you feel like you have a super negative outlook on a situation is really hard to do that. So I love that you looked at it from that perspective of you got to do the math and make the pro list and make the con list. I think it's funny because when I read the question, my answer was radically different from yours in that-
Dr. Andy Roark:
You're like, “Get out of there.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, so yes, so the question was if staffing is based on being buddy-buddy with the owner versus someone's skills and merit, and if that trend continues, would you look for another practice? And my answer is absolutely hell yes. Because what I would say is hell yes with a caveat. So if the staffing being, is if you have done your info gathering and there is actually a trend and you have assumed good intent and you have seen a pattern that is undeniable, and there are hospitals out there where this is 100% the case. We've had episodes where we've talked about when one of the techs is really good friends with the practice leader and so they get good opportunities or they're the bias of being friends or being buddy-buddy is undeniable.
So there are situations where that is totally the case. If that was the case on a personal level, I would absolutely look for another practice because to me there are so many great practices out there that need great people and it is, maybe it's just the place that I'm at in my career, but I have come to this place where it is important to me to work with good people who want to do good work and who believe good things. And if I felt like I was in an environment where the staffing was solely based on whether somebody could get along with a practice owner or not, hell yes, I would be gone. And I love what you said because it's a significantly better answer in the sense of you should still do that math. And I guess I say hell yes, because I agree with you.
I would have done the mental math and I am that person. I believe the best in people. And I have had, can think of two instances in my own career where I was really struggling with things that were happening with our practice leaders. And I felt like I had some significant skin in the game, obviously as a practice manager. And it was not my practice in either situation. And so I was in the place exactly where you talked about where I sat down and I literally made pros and cons lists and I looked at the math and then I looked at all of those options and thought through them similar to what you just said, which is, okay, I could stay and not say anything and be miserable and I see people on my team and that's the choice they're making and I don't want to be that person, so what's the next thing?
And I moved my way down and ultimately I am a big fan of the camp in the middle, giving, staying, and here's the commitment, I'm going to reassess this. And so in both of those situations, I gave myself a timeframe and I was like, this is the timeframe. And I did exactly what you said, at home, I wrote it on my calendar and I circled the date in red and I was like, I'm going to give it until this day and I'm going to give 110% as I have been until this day, and then I'm going to reassess and I'm going to look at it with fresh perspective. And if I still feel the same way that I do now or I don't feel significant change, then it'll be easier for me to make my decision one way or the other.
So I think you look at it from a very pragmatic perspective, and I think that that's important. And I'm going to advocate, I feel like almost always on the side of there are so many great practices out there and I see so many people and this letter reminded me of that, of people who are good people who want to do good in the world and are in these practices that, and again, we only hear one perspective. And the truth is funny, man. There are always at least two sides to every story and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. And so we only have one tiny filtered-down view from the email that we get in the mailbag. And when we zoom out and we talk through all the things we talk through on this episode, it's really easy to imagine a place where this is reality and maybe this practice owner is toxic and this is what's happening. And then I'm a big advocate for being the cheerleader for my fellow colleagues to say, “Heck yes, man, don't stay in a toxic place. Don't let yourself feel trapped like that.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I'll put a little bit of spin on this as well, just so you look at, because I think you'll appreciate it, what if it's not that the practice owner wants people they're buddy-buddy with? What if they're a weak manager and they're not able to manage people that are not very similar to them? Does that change the way you look at the situation? It doesn't change the outcome if people are getting chased away but again, it just goes back to assuming good intent.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. And so the info gathering, because if we were info gathering and that practice owner said what you just said, I'm struggling, this last person who left was radically different from me. If I got that out of the conversation, hell yes, I would be willing to help and look at it completely differently.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's just interesting. It's just a thing I've done for years and years and years. People will say, “I have a bad boss.” And I'll listen to them and I'll say, “It sounds to me like you have a struggling boss.” And they're like, “Yeah.” And now that does not mean that you have to sacrifice yourself. It does not mean that you should be miserable or that you need to stick with this because the boss is struggling to lead people. You didn't marry this person, you just took a job. But it does help me to feel better about my decisions and put things into some context that I don't know. It just for me, when my heart is open like that, it can help me pick my way through it.
I think your point is also really good is when we do some math, ease of leaving right now with so many hospitals that are desperately looking for people, especially really good, that does swing the math equation. If you're like, I'm pretty confident I could go to a place that is really good. Ultimately I go back to the very beginning, which is they're not obligated to include you in their decisions, but you are affected by the outcome of those decisions and you are therefore empowered and you should not feel bad about making the decisions that are best for you because that's what they did as well.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, and I think to your point there, I think some of it is self-reflection on what do you want in your role? And I have worked with associate veterinarians who are like, “I want nothing to do with being a leader, whether it's from within the team or in a position of power. I want to come to work, I want to take care of my patients, I want to do a good job, and then I want to go home.” If you are an associate veterinarian who likes management, who is interested in leadership, who is interested in growth and development, which is the sense that I got from the mailbag letter that we got, then this is also a good opportunity for you to look at what you want. So it was so easy for me to say, hell yes, I would look for another practice because I did that reflection on what do I want in my own career path?
What is important to me? What are the values that are important to me in a practice? What's the environment? And if you told me you were going to go work in a practice every day and you wouldn't be able to have a conversation or have any impact from even within the team, that would not be a fit for me and it would be easier for me to do that math. And so I think that's that for this associate that I think some of it is thinking about what do they want in the bigger scheme of things and then maybe what they want and what the practice owner is struggling with, talk about it feels maybe like lightning in a bottle, but what if you have a practice owner who is struggling to manage people and you have an associate who is interested in managing? What if you guys can work together, could you turn this around? Hell yeah, you could. So I think coming at it from that inquisitive state and info gathering is the most important part because I don't think you can make your decision without that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I completely agree. Well, then that's what I got. I think that's all I got with this one.
Stephanie Goss:
This was a fun one. Take care everybody. Have a fantastic week.
Dr. Andy Roark:
See you everybody.
Stephanie Goss:
Well gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
