A practice owner is struggling how to communicate taking responsibility even when they didn't do anything wrong. In this episode of the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss tackle a tough mailbag question from a practice owner dealing with a post-surgery complication. After a routine spay, a client reported swelling at the incision site, which quickly escalated to an emergency vet visit. The associate vet who performed the surgery believes they did nothing wrong, as confirmed by the emergency vet. However, the practice owner is considering helping with the ER bill to maintain client trust, but struggles with the associate's concerns about admitting fault. Andy and Stephanie dive into the complexities of balancing client care, maintaining team morale, and upholding the practice’s integrity. They offer insights on handling post-surgical complications, fostering open communication, and navigating the delicate balance between supporting clients and protecting the veterinary team. Let's get into this episode…
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss: Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are talking about a case where an associate veterinarian had a surgery go wrong and they ended up in the ER. The associate is really frustrated that the practice owner or medical director wants to help reimburse the client for the care that they had to undergo at the ER.
They don't understand why, and there's some tension and this this medical director or a practice owner reached out for some advice on how do I talk about this with the associate? Because I feel like this is the right thing to do for the client. This one brought up both some personal experiences for both Andy and I, and it was a lot of fun to talk about. Let's get into it.
Announcer: And now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only Stephanie Blame It On The Rain Cause the rain don't care, Goss. Cause the rain don't mind, or the rain don't, anyway, anyway. (Singing) Blame It On The Rain. Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Goss: I was hoping you would sing it. Thank you. Uh, good morning, Andy Roark. How are you doing? Good morning.
Dr. Andy Roark: I am, I'm great. I am busy. I'm busy.
Stephanie Goss: You look very tan.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, yeah, I've got, I mean it's summer here. I've been I haven't I haven't burned but I've gotten a tan which is good for me. I have gone full dad mode this summer. I'll just be honest with you. I got full dad mode. I have reached the point in my life Stephanie Goss where I wear big floppy yard hats and have those and I have zero cares.
I have a sun shirt, and a big floppy yard hat, and I wear the zinc based sunscreen, that's, it doesn't matter how much you rub it, it's still white. And like, I, it's funny, cause I look at myself in the mirror, and I was like, this is what has become of you. And I am, I am okay with it. I've had this thought, I'll just tell you this.
You know, Like, to, let me tell you, okay, let's talk about dad jokes for a second, okay? You know what dad jokes are? Dad jokes are a complete flex by a person who has reached a point in their life where they're like, I don't care. I don't need to be cool. I don't need to be cool. And I'm like, how powerful is that?
And it's like, you want to talk about secure? Picture me in my floppy hat with my sun shirt talking about, talking about “Hey, Hey there was a guy who went to a costume party and he walked in with a woman on his back and he told the host, I'm a turtle, and the host said, Okay, but who is that woman on your back? And he says, that's Michelle.”
And I'm like, that's how I'm living. That's how I'm living today. I like bam. I've got I've got white sunscreen on my face that you can see telling dad jokes because I don't need your approval.
Stephanie Goss: Oh my god, I can't.
Dr. Andy Roark: Roll up with socks and sandals and don't care. Like, what a flex that is. I just think about being in high school and how in knots I was about how I was perceived.
Versus now.
Stephanie Goss: Zero F’s given.
Andy Roark: Zero F's given. I went on this program that my wife was running for college students. And it was her. And me, and 17 college students, and I just dad joked all over them. They were, we were traveling together, so she runs this program to the Galapagos, and we were coming back from this international flight to the Galapagos, and I got these kids that are there, and there were these guys, and one of them has gotten the complimentary pillow from the plane.
You know the one with like the paper like, yeah, the little one, he's got it tucked into his bag. It's like, like he's strapped to his bag, like his backpack. Because he's taking it through security. And I just couldn't help myself. And so I looked at him and said, and we were in the line for TSA, so there's no getting out.
And I said to him, that's not the pillow from the plane, is it? And he said, yeah. And I said, you know, it's illegal to take those.
Stephanie Goss: You're so mean.
Dr. Andy Roark: And the kid next to him goes, Oh shit, I took the blanket. I'm like, you took the blanket? You guys are going down. And then the line moved and I just walked away. And they came up to, oh, they totally, I didn't, I was like, okay, I'm screwing with these guys. I didn't realize that they perceived me as an authority figure because I'm 25.
Stephanie Goss: Who would picture you as an adult?
Dr. Andy Roark: Look, look, I'm married to the authority figure. Like, let's be like, there's no doubt about who's in charge.
Look at this, I am 100 percent sponging a trip to the Galapagos here, like, I am not an authority figure by any measure. And boy, they, I didn't realize that they thought basically one of the professors told them they were going down. I'm sorry, I did not perceive myself in the role that you see me in.
But I don't care, I don't care. Ha, ha, ha.
Stephanie Goss: Oh, God, I can’t.
Dr. Andy Roark: So, yeah, it's been a good summer. It's been a good summer.
Stephanie Goss: I would agree, I would agree about the dad jokes. I have reached a point now where the kids just think it's hilarious because you know, I, I was inspired earlier this year when we. Maybe it was even last year when we came to Greenville and we started telling dad jokes and you started videoing some of them when we were all together and I was inspired.
And so now I have started a Hey Tyler Grogan series on my Instagram and I love to give Tyler the, the dad jokes because you know, we love dad jokes and Uncharted and so she shares them in our newsletter and stuff. Well, my kids have worked at first they were quite appalled. And I had a conversation with Jackson and he's like, mom, you seriously get on the internet and tell dad jokes.
And I was like, yes, yes, I do. He's like, and someone pays you for that. And I was like, yes.
Dr. Andy Roark: I do yes, it's Andy. Andy pays you for that.
Stephanie Goss: And that was exactly what Riley said. She's like, yeah. And he pays her for that because he's the coolest boss ever.
Dr. Andy Roark: I am a cool. I am a very cool boss. I'm a very cool boss. Sometimes I myself ask myself you, you, you you pay people to do this. Like, this is, like, they're,
Stephanie Goss: Like, right now, like right now when you're staring at me in the camera.
Dr. Andy Roark: Like, right now! I'm like, like, sit still and let me tell you about going through security. Yeah, that actually ties into what we're talking about today a bit.
Stephanie Goss: Oh my God, speaking of authority figures.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, speaking of authority and what we pay people for let's get in, let's get into this mailbag.
Stephanie Goss: Okay, we got, we got a good one. So, we had a veterinarian and I'm going to assume that it's the practice owner because they said one of their associates. So practice, practice owner, medical director position and one of the associate doctors spayed a pet and a couple days later the client called because there was some swelling at the incision and they sent over a photo.
And the vet took a look at it and said, I, you know, I think it might be a seroma. And a couple hours later, the client sent a text to one of their friends who happens to work at the hospital at the front desk and the intestines were hanging out of the belly. And so the CSR was like, Oh my God, the hospital's closed.
Like you need to go to the, they recognized that it was like an emergency, and they were like, you need to go to the er. So, they, the clinic got the records after the pet had been seen at the ER, everything went, went well. But clearly the suture had ruptured.
So the doctor at the ER actually told the clients that the knots were still intact and it didn't seem like there was any trauma or anything, but the suture had ruptured, so the pet did really well. At the er. The client was fine and they were contacting the clinic afterwards to talk to them about help her paying for the ER bill. And so, this medical director or practice owner was talking to their associate and trying to figure out what the right thing to do is here.
Because the associate doctor was like, I don't think I did anything wrong. The knots were intact. There wasn't any signs that the pet was licking or that there was trauma. So they were, you know, and the owner said that, I'm assuming, said that they were following the instructions. So the vet is like, the spay was uneventful.
I don't think we, I don't think we did anything wrong. And I feel like if we pay or help the client pay for it, that we're admitting wrongdoing that I don't believe is actual. And so, the medical director or practice owner is like, okay, and I feel like when they said that there was concerns. I don't think that it means that you did anything wrong.
I don't think it means that we did anything wrong in our aftercare or any of that. And this, this authority figure within the practice is feeling like, Hey, maybe we should help support this client because here's someone who reached out to us. We took care of their pet. What should we have done after the fact?
And so they are really struggling. The client has been wonderful. There hasn't been any, you know, drama on social media, but they were like, I would really like to avoid that.
And so it resulted in kind of, some, some frustration and conversation with the associate because the associate was like, look, hey, I feel like if you help them pay for the surgery, then you're admitting to them that I did something wrong in the surgery. And I don't want to, I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want to see this client. I'm not happy about that because I don't think that I did anything wrong. And so the crux of the email was actually about how do I, as a, as an owner, how do I talk this through with my associate because I need them to understand that sometimes we need to take care of the clients.
And I'm struggling with feeling like they may be a little bit overconfident here. And yes, the ER said that the knots were intact. And yes, it didn't seem like there was any trauma and it was still a surgery that went wrong. And so do we have a responsibility as a clinic to help take care of that client?
And if so, how do I talk to the associate about this? How do I get them to you know, acknowledge the fact that just because we help pay for something or take care of the client doesn't necessarily mean that we're admitting wrong, wrongdoing. That's their, that's their frame of mind as an owner or as someone in charge of the practice.
And they're really struggling with the fact that this associate does not feel the same way and feels really, really. Strongly that they didn't do anything wrong. And so I thought this was a good one. And I was like, Hey, put your Dr. Andy hat on as an, as an associate doctor. And let's kind of talk this one through.
Dr. Andy Roark: So I'm, I'm going to put it on as a business owner and an associate doctor and try to go back and forth.
Dr. Andy Roark: I'm going to say up front, I'm going to say up front, I'm going to struggle with this a little bit because I have strong feelings.
Stephanie Goss: Mhm. Mhm.
Dr. Andy Roark: and you, I'll unpack sort of what they are in a minute.
But I am, I am going to try not to reach for the flaming raging sword of justice. And again, I always say to be careful about justice and like, Anyway, I have strong feelings. But let's let's let's let's again the best thing you can do when you have strong feelings is stop and breathe and and try to understand what they are and set them down and work through this in a I don't know in an organized manner. So that's what I want to do.
All right, cool. So let's start with headspace as we do now for me. The first thing we have to do is figure out What, what the first thing, before we talk to the vet, we have to figure out what we want to say to the vet. Right? Like, we have to kind of work through the issue to be able to articulate our position here.
And so, for me, I talk about headspace, I want to start with headspace facing the client. So this is me imagining looking at the client in the eyes. And I say, you know, not, not how much to deal with them, but what I'm sorry, not what I'm going to say to them, but you know, where's my head need to be? And so there's a, there's a couple of things that I would just put forward.
And some of this is, is I'm trying to parse out what's good business and what is just my personal beliefs about life. And I don't know that I can really do them. So just, just file this away with, I know some of my own beliefs and philosophy are really baked into this. And I'm, I apologize, but it's just, I don't know, I can tease them apart.
I truly believe that at the end of the day, all you've got is your reputation. I just, I believe that. I also truly believe that there is nothing more important in this industry than building and maintaining trust. This is a relationship business, whether you're talking about managing your team or dealing with clients.
And so no, just put, and you can already see where this is going. There's nothing more important than your relationship. Or than your than your reputation, and then there's nothing more important than trust. And again, those two things are tied together tightly because if you build and maintain trust, reputation takes care of itself.
And so if you have to put one over the other, it's trust is the most important thing. And if you serve trust, your reputation will be just fine. So reputation comes from this, this deep seated belief I have about, about trust. And so that's it now. People have heard me, for 10 years at least, say things about online reviews and social media, where I say things like, I have, I have been in the camp of not responding, very often for a long time.
And people have strongly argued with me, and I have not changed my position in 10 years. And like, and I, I, and again, I tend to be someone who listens. And I think of a lot about this. I do not believe that you have to engage with people online. I think that there are, there are things that you could just let go rather than adding fuel to the fire.
I think a lot of times social media and online stuff is a bunch of hand waving and the best thing that you can do, and this is what is key, the best thing you can do is build and maintain. And maintain the trust of the people who actually come to your practice. Take care of the people who actually come to your practice.
And, and everything else will sort of take care of itself. And so, I just wanted to say that up front when people say, is Andy saying that we should bend over backwards for people online? And Andy says reputation matters so, so much. I need to wade into this Facebook group and fight with people who are saying bad things about my practice.
I don't believe that. I think you have to, I think you have to actually walk the talk. The talk and live your values on the ground and that social media garbage will take care of itself and you will bury bad reviews with good reviews from good work that you have done and those things are actually in your control.
And so I just want to say, I know a lot of people have heard me say that they're not contradictory views. In my opinion, it really comes down to what you actually do in the building and how you take care of the people who come in the door. And so when we talk about dealing with clients, it's not about what you did. It's about the experience that the client has. Trust doesn't get built because you did something and then bad things happened. The patterners gauge how good you are, how much they trust you, by the experience that they had when they dealt with you, not by what was your fault and what was outside of your control.
There's also, you know, we talk a lot about Well, I've been thinking a lot recently. I'm starting to write about it more about this idea of internal, external loci of control. And so when we look at people who are content in their life, who are happy, who are satisfied versus people who are struggling with mental health issues and things
like that, one of the key differentiators is where do you see the locus of control in your life?
An internal locus of control means that you have a good amount of control inside your own. Or of power, like your sphere of influence, meaning, you know, I have control of this and external locus of control means that things happen to me and I, I am the victim of those things or I have to, I have to deal with these things that are coming to me now.
We all know that there's things inside this world that you can't control, especially in medicine. However, the more of an internal locus of control you believe you have, the happier and more empowered you are going to feel. And so, when we're talking about the experience a pet owner has, there are a lot of things that are outside of my control.
But I tend to take a very internal locus of control approach. And again, you can look at this. A lot of times you'll hear people talk about taking ownership of as much as you possibly can. And you and I talk about that. And I say, as a leader, I try to take as much ownership as I can. Not because it's the right thing to do.
Not because I truly believe I have no, or I had all the control here. It's because it gives me a sense of empowerment. And it puts me in a position to get the best outcome I can possibly get. We have all dealt with people. Who deal in blame and I think that there's a lot of corporate cultures this way where people don't want to get in trouble I think some of it is just an individual person and how they were raised I think some people they do not they cannot fathom the idea that something was their fault And so they will not take responsibility.
They will push blame to other people. I think that is a really toxic trait It is something I never ever want to have in my company. I have always tried really hard To not ever make it so that my employees would not take ownership of mistakes. And so I try really hard not to punish people, you know, just say, Hey, mistakes happen.
We're all human. We all make mistakes. And I truly lean into that because if you don't lean into that, you will foster that mentality of this wasn't my fault. This was, this was someone else's fault. I did what I was supposed to do. Someone else made a mistake and it go to so unproductive. And it just, you can't fix problems, you can't get things done, it's, it's a horrible way to live.
And so, anyway, there's, there's sort of that internal locus of control supporting the idea that we just take ownership. And things are outside of our control, but we take as much ownership as we can, so that we can move forward. There's, there's There's a big question again, like this is just so fundamental for what we teach at Uncharted, and people who listen to the podcast have heard us talk about this a million times.
What are your, what are your core values? Like, what is your why? Why, why do you, why are you in this business? What do you care about? And then what are your core values? And so one of the core values, and I said this is hard for me not to reach for the flaming, raging sort of justice, is that one of my core values is integrity.
Meaning I, I I want to do what I say I'm going to do. I want to treat people fairly, you know, if I say I'm going to take your money and perform a service, I want that service to get performed. I'm not, I don't want to take your money and then not have that, not have that turn out the way that I said it was going to turn out.
And it's not about me. Is this my fault or something I couldn't control? I told you I would deliver an experience and I took your money. And so for me, that's, that, that hits on my integrity, core value. I know other people might feel differently. And that's why I said, it's hard for me to tease these things apart versus what is my personal philosophy on life, but that's, that's just kind of how I see the world.
Stephanie Goss: Yes. I, I would agree with that and I think looking at who you are as a practice is really important. And I think from a Headspace perspective, what I'm reading between the lines in this is that this is a practice owner who does care about the client and does care about the client experience and they're not looking at it from a place of negativity or blame or like you did something wrong, that's why I want, that's why I would consider paying for this.
They, I think they are looking at it from that Headspace that you're talking about, which is. What are their core values? What is important to them? What is that client experience? And it's, it's funny that you I mean, not funny that integrity is your core value, but, but in that, that I I had an experience as a, as a practice manager where we had this and reading this made me think about this a lot.
So we had a a patient we had a client who called, we hadn't seen them in probably a year. For five years, they had previously been a client of the prior practice owners. So this was a practice that I came in after the practice had been sold The prior practice owners were no longer in the practice. We hadn't seen them since. And they called in there like, Hey our dog is at like, I, I think that our dog is in heat. And I was like, okay. And then in my head, I'm thinking, why am I getting this call as the manager? Like, why did the front, why did the front desk send this to me?
And I'm like, oh, okay. So I opened the chart and I'm taking a look at it. And I'm like, oh, that's why this is a problem because this dog has been spayed. And I'm like okay. And she's like, I don't, I, I don't, I don't know, but like, there's definitely something weird going on. And I'm like, okay. I was like, why don't you, why don't you come in for, for an exam and we'll just take, take a look at it.
And so I went to my doctors and I was like, Hey, I've already said that you know, I've set this client up that, that I don't know what's going on. We might charge them, but also we might not charge them for this exam because this pet was already spayed and I don't, you know, I want, I want us to be able to get to the bottom of it.
So they came in, long story short the pet sure was showing signs of being in heat. And I was just like, Okay, well, so, so I was in that situation of like, what do I do? This was a surgery that, yes, the hospital did, but not even our existing staff participated in. There's very, you know, that I can't tell from the chart.
What may or may not have happened and, and I wanted to do the right thing by the client because here was someone who wasn't screaming and yelling that her dog who was spayed five years ago now is showing signs that it's in heat. She was really calm and she's like, I just want to know what's going on.
And so ultimately I, I wound up sending her to the specialty clinic. Cause I was like, I really want a surgeon to take a look at this pet. And my doctors agreed. They were like, we'll do it. But also what happens if we do it and then we find something weird and it needs to go to the surgeon anyways. And so we talked about it as a group and I said, okay, and so I offered to the client.
I said, I, I will, we will pay for you to, to go and see what happens. And if it is, if it is something relating to the surgery, like, of course we want to take care of that. Because you entrusted your pet's care to us and it doesn't matter that it's been five years. It doesn't matter that. It was not even a member of this team.
You entrusted the, the pet to us. And so for me, that was an integrity thing. And I had one of my doctors who was really struggling with that because she's like, well, why would we pay for something that may or may not be our, our quote unquote fault? And I said, because it's, it's not about. It's not about, it's, it's about doing the right thing by the client.
It's about, this is a small community and this is, yes, and they're like, but they're not even our client anymore. Like they haven't been in, in five years. And I said, yes, and. What about if this could be one of those experiences where the client is thrilled with the care that they get from us now and they become a client, and they share that experience out into the community?
Like, this is an opportunity for us to do the right thing, just because it's the right thing. If it comes back to us, that's great. But if it doesn't, it's still just the right thing to, to do. And so it was, but it was that it was a hard conversation with the team because they were like, well, I don't, I don't understand.
But to your point, Andy, for me on a personal level, I was like, it's about integrity. Like we, we, we spayed this pet. We said, yes, we have taken care of your pet and maybe, maybe we did, and maybe this has nothing to do with the surgery itself, but maybe it does. And so, you know, if it does. That's why we have, you know, liability insurance.
That's why, you know, like that's, that's, it's a cost of doing business and it for, for me in that perspective. And so as a manager, it was just like, Hey, this is the right thing for the, for the client and for the pet. And so I just think I, I agree with you on that, that regard. I think part of it is figuring out. Who you, who you are as a clinic and what your, what your core values are. And I think in this case, it, it speaks to me that this is, and I'm not saying that that doesn't mean that the associate doesn't also have those same core values. I think that from this perspective though, it definitely sounds like the practice owner is coming at it from that, Hey, what's the, what's the thing that feels good here?
And you know, how do I, how do I take care of that client and give them that, that experience?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. No, I I completely agree with that and again, like I said It's it's hard for me to to tease apart, you know, the core value part from the other part You know, I haven't I've never told this story before but I'll tell it I'll tell him though because it's been about 10 years I I have missed one speaking gig in my career
Stephanie Goss: I didn't know if you wanted to tell this story. That's why I just told the other one because I was like, Ooh, I don't know if he's going to tell this story.
Dr. Andy Roark: I have not, it's the first time I tell the story.
I'll tell it. I, I have missed one speaking gig in my entire career. So 15 plus years and I, I have missed one gig and I was signed up for it and it was a mistake on, on on our team. And so we like the scheduling on our side got bungled and I did not show up for a gig that I was supposed to speak at and I was supposed to do I was supposed to do a presentation, and it was in Canada, and I, I didn't, I didn't get there, and that was, it's happened one time, I've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of engagements, and that was one time it happened, and I felt, I was devastated, and so I, I joined virtually, and I, I, I did it, sort of did a little thing virtually, sort of at the end of the day and everything, and, and, and sort of tried to, to do it that way, but it was not what I had said that I would do, and it, it really bothered me, and so I did not, Accept payment for the, for the job, obviously.
And then, I went to Canada. I, I flew myself up there, and I drove to the hospitals that were at that event, and I talked to them at their hospital. It took me three days, and I drove to the hospitals that were there, and I talked to them in their, in their treatment rooms. And again, it, it was, you know, it's just, it
Stephanie Goss: I think, well, I think that's a true Testament of the, of the intake, you living your, your value of integrity. It's that question of like, what, what do you need to sleep soundly at night? Okay. as kind of the litmus test that I use, and I think it's the same for you. It's like, you could have done, you could have just joined virtually and said, I'm really sorry.
Like, yes, we made this mistake and this is what I can do for you. And for you, the right thing felt like, I, I feel this deeply. And
Dr. Andy Roark: I said I would go
Stephanie Goss: those clients,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I said I would go there and talk to them. And that's what I said. And again, I just, I believe that, you know, I know, again, you and I talk a lot about boundaries and setting boundaries. And so I'm not saying that I am your whipping boy and I will sacrifice myself and my relationship with my family and my staff to meet your every whim.
That's important to note here. If I say I'm going to do it, then I'm going to do it. If I say I'm going to take care of something for you, I am going to do everything in my power to take care of something for you. And so, anyway, that's, that's kind of how I am because of what I said at the beginning. At the end of the day, all you got is your reputation.
You know what I mean? That's all you got. And so, that's kind of it. And I want to jump back real quick to something you said about this is the cost of doing business in vet medicine. When you say, we're going to send this to a specialist, we're going to have them look at it, and I don't know if it's our fault or not.
It was five years ago. But we're going to do it and we're going to make this investment because that's the cost of doing business. And I so strongly believe in that, Stephanie. I think that everybody should just get their head around the idea that there are hidden costs of doing business in veterinary medicine.
There are going to be euthanasias that you do for free. And you should be okay with that. When someone comes in and they're like, I just saw this cat get hit by a car and it's suffering, clearly suffering, and it doesn't have a collar on or whatever, I'm not gonna necessarily, I'm not gonna charge that client for euthanasia because it's not their cat and just, anyway, and you can argue, we can get into details or whatever, but you get the point.
Sometimes, just put the cat to sleep. You know what I mean? Just, it's suffering and we're doing it and we're, it's, it's, it's a cost, it's a cost of Doing what we do for a living, you know, if you have boarding in your practice, you're going to have to deal with diarrhea cases at inconvenient times. That is a cost of doing business this way.
If you have grooming in your practice, you're going to have to see clipper burns and skin infections and ear infections. Like you're going to have to deal them. It is baked into the business that we do. If you're going to take payment plans, you're going to get burned in payment plans. My advice to you is to know, just know that you're going to get burned and be okay with it and see it not as an indictment of humanity and society collapsing morally, but just as part of, be smart, but just as part of, our job in this profession, sometimes there are going to be cases that come in that the staff is going to be morally just crushed if you don't help.
And the fact that the person can't necessarily afford that help, you know what I mean? We've all seen that of like, We tell them we're not about the money and then sometimes you have to put your money where your mouth is and say we said it's not all about the money this is a case where we're going to suck it up and we're going to do some good now that should not be how you live every day and again once I open this door but there is sometimes when you're going to have to just be
Stephanie Goss: Yes Well,
Dr. Andy Roark: sacrifice because that's what it means to be a moral being with the powers that we have as veterinarians, but it's not as often as people think, but every now and then you have to show your character.
You have to show your character.
Stephanie Goss: Yes, and I think it's, it's interesting because I had this, I had this same conversation in a different way when you did an episode on Cone of Shame, I think, with our friend Tanejia Crocker and uh, you guys were talking about, you know, fees and she's an ER veterinarian and you were talking about fees in the ER and, and discounting or not charging for services and.
Yeah. When she started talking about this she, she's a speaker as well, when she started talking about it, she did a, a lecture on it, I think, at Western. And I got into it with some manager colleagues who were just like, absolutely not. Like, you charge for your services and that's how we, you know, that's how we instill value in what we do for clients.
And for me, it's a yes and, right? It's a yes, yes, we should charge for our services. Yes, we should take care of the business end. And we also have a responsibility to take care of the pets and the clients. And so I think this is a case of the yes and, and for, and for me, when we get to, when we get into action steps here in just a minute.
When you're talking about the conversation with the associate veterinarian, it is very much a yes and conversation because you can, you can, like your, I love your example about the hidden cost of, of business and grooming is, is a great one. Like you can have a great conscientious team that does a wonderful job and takes care of patients.
And at some point. You're going to get clipper burn or like I had I we had a pet where it was the best cat ever you could groom It lion cut no sedation She would just chill and sit there and yet one time she got clipped and she got clipped Like it needed action like she was getting older and had diabetic skin and it got clipped and it needed wound repair, right?
Do we, do we take care of that? Do we just say to the client, you know, we're, we're, we're, this is the coolest client ever. Do we do it because they're a cool client? No, we do it because it's the right thing to do. And because that should be built into our business model to, to your point. And for me as the manager, I don't want to have to be the one who makes all of those decisions either or as the practice owner.
I want to cultivate a culture where the team knows where it's okay. Like there has to be systems and processes is my point where I'm going with this and I really want to talk about it when we get to action steps because I think that it's totally okay to have that be a hidden part of the business and it should, it should be It shouldn't be dependent upon the voice of authority in the practice saying, okay, we're going to discount this thing, or okay, we're not going to pay for this thing.
this thing. The whole team should know if you're, if you truly believe in a culture or you have a culture where integrity matters or compassionate care or kindness, like if you're, if those are part of your core values, this is where you live it out. This is where you show up for the clients and the patients.
And this is how you demonstrate that.
Dr. Andy Roark: I got switching over to the headspace for the associate that because now we gotta talk to associate One of my big things with the associate is I need to try to understand because my flaming raging sword of justice Says when you say to me, that's not my fault That makes me mad like and I don't tend to get very mad But that is that is if you ever want to make me mad really fast When we're trying to fix a problem, just say to me, this is not my fault.
Because I don't give a crap whose fault it is. I just want it fixed. And like the whole, this is not my fault, like that, ooh, that snails on chalkboard to me. I, I, hate that mentality. I
do not want
Stephanie Goss: that that's where your head goes.
Dr. Andy Roark: I know. I, as I said, that's why I said, like, I know it's a triggering thing for me. But that's, that's not really how I feel.
And that's, that's, when, you know how we tell ourselves
Stephanie Goss: that that's where, that that's where your head goes is like, oh, this is the, this, they're saying like, I, I am not my fault. Cause when, cause when I read it and I hear that from an associate, my head immediately goes to, oh, they're afraid.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes, that's, that's the right answer.
Stephanie Goss: my experience that has been, there is some underlying concern or fear about fault or blame or a board case or whatever, almost every single time that I've dug into that reaction with a team member, there is something that has nothing to do with that actual situation, but it is about, it is about fear.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, well, you're spot on. That's, that's what we have to do, is don't do what I just said, which is jump to a conclusion about why this person is saying what they're saying. The, the conversation with them is, why do you feel this way? What do you, what are your, what are your concerns in us? And say, well, it's not really our fault.
Well, yes, we didn't do anything wrong. Mm hmm. But this pet had intestine hanging out After we sent it home That's not it. That's not acceptable. Do you agree right like that's not an okay outcome Right. I would I would sort of try to try to understand that I think we've got I think we've got a little bit of a warped relationship in some instances with some of the associates today, where there's like, imagine a spectrum, right, in a practice of, on one end of the spectrum is tyranny, where the practice owner, the medical director, rules with an
Stephanie Goss: you do. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, exactly. Then the other end of the spectrum is anarchy, where no one is in charge, there is, like, everybody does what they want to do, and again, we're always in that spectrum, and there's not a right place, and I think we drift on that spectrum, and that's probably good. It's probably anarchy.
unavoidable that we're going to have a little bit of a pendulum and that's what I've seen in my career is I Lean a little bit too far into everybody just kind of do Everybody I trust you guys to do what you want to do And then things kind of get kind of Muppet showy and then we kind of tighten back down and then maybe we Maybe we go a little bit too hard on building systems and rules and then we have to and then we have to loosen back Up, but I really do think that that's probably what life is And so, you know We've talked about how we feel about the practice and the experience of the client.
To me, as the practice owner, what the associate vet wants in this scenario, I don't want to say it's not important to me because I want the associate to be, I want them to understand But I know what, I know what I'm going to do. And if it's not a discussion, this is not a democracy, I'm going to make this right.
That's what I'm going to do. And I want the associate to feel as good as possible about that. But their buy in is not required for me to do this thing that I believe is Is what needs to happen to be right. And so I don't know that this person is feeling that way, but I just want to say if you're living in the space where we don't do things unless the associates buy into them, especially in a case like this, I think we need to swing the pendulum back the other way a little bit.
And we know Again, if you're the medical director, if you're the practice owner, if you're the practice manager, remember what your job is, and I've told you this a million times, guys. Your job is to achieve, as best you can, its balance of everyone's needs. That's, that's the techs, that's the vets, that's the front desk, that's the practice owner, or that's the practice owner, that is the clients, that is the patients, like, We need to try to balance their needs.
And sometimes, one of those party goes, I don't want to do this, and everybody else needs it. And if everybody else needs it, I'm sorry. I know you don't like this, but this is what we're going to do. And so that's just I think that's a head space for the Associate Is. I want to try to understand, and again, it's not going to change what I do, but why do you feel that way?
What are you worr Have I made you feel like? You're going to be in trouble? Like, I don't want you to feel like you're going to be in trouble. Do I make you feel? If I don't make you feel that way, are you worried the client's going to think that you're incompetent? You know, like, I get it. These things happen, and I'm fine to say, sometimes suture breaks.
Sometimes, you know, sometimes things happen that are beyond our control. You know, like the the pet going into heat after being spayed is a great example. Like, I am not going to look you in the eye and be like, I would never, I would never leave ovarian remnants. Like, it could never happen to me. It could totally happen to me!
There's, there's, and when there's crazy anatomy in pets, and like, there's just, if things happen, if you do enough space at some point, there's gonna be something that happens, and it's like, I think we should all be open about that and just honest and go, you know, I set out to do it, and it's not done, and all I can do is go back in there and fix it and make it right.
That's all, that's the only power I have. But I'm not gonna let this dictate how I feel about myself. You know what I mean? I feel like I'm less than.
Stephanie Goss: Well, and I think that there can be an assumption here, at least in my experience in this particular instance with spay, I think there can be an assumption that it has to be all or nothing. And that was definitely the conversation with. Uh, With my team when it came to talking to the associate doctors and I, the doctor who was just like, well, I don't think that we should pay for that because then we're telling them that we did something wrong.
And I was like, I don't, I don't, I disagree. And to your point, Andy, it was like, this is my responsibility as a manager. I've already made this decision. This is not up for discussion. I just want you guys to understand why we're doing it. And I want there to be a you know, a really clear understanding that.
They may go and I may pay all of their visit. I may pay some of their visit, right? But I'm going to pay something because this is, this is the scenario that that came up because I've done the work from an action step perspective to make sure that the client understands that life happens, right? And, and it may have, it may have had something to do with the surgery, but it may not.
And I think that's where this practice owner is coming from is trying to, wanting to be in a space where. Would it have been different if this client came in and saw us for that follow up? Like when we saw the picture and we said, it looks a little swollen. If we had had the pet come to us, would, would they have had the same expenses?
Maybe. They may, would have, right? And so part of it is like, well, what could, to your point there at the very beginning, what can we, what can we control here? And so I think part of that with the associate is trying to understand. Seeking first to understand and being able to put down that flaming raging sort of justice and, and asking them, like, tell me, tell me what you're really concerned about and why you're concerned about it.
And to your point, Andy, I think you can, as the authority figure, you can tell them, this is what I'm doing and I still want you to feel seen and heard. And so please tell me more, you know, like that's, as a parent, that's what we do all the time. I had that conversation with my kids last night. I love you and get your butt into the bathroom and brush your damn teeth because you're not going to bed without brushing your teeth.
Because that's, that's a, that's a rule and it's there for your oral health and hygiene. And I'm taking care of you for your whole life. I'm thinking about your teeth 30 years from now. I don't care that you want to stay up, get in the bathroom, right?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: It's that same thing. Like I'm being the authority figure.
I'm making the decision and I can still have compassion and I can still make you feel seen and heard.
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, I completely agree. I think you and I are on the same, same page here is, you know, come from a place of curiosity, come from a place of compassion you can validate, hey sometimes these things happen. I mean, I've had, I've had patients that had suture reactions. And like, they just, and like, now they've got ooze and goo and things like that.
I'm like, I didn't do anything wrong. You're a freaky deaky pet is the one that's having a reaction to the most common suture used in America, you know, but, but, but here we are. And now they, they dropped this thing off for a spay and now she's got pus coming out of her, or, you know, or fluid coming incision and I go.
I, well, I'm going to fix it. You know what I mean? It's just, it's kind, it's kind of what it is. And to me, I put that under the cost of doing business. Because if you bring your patent, then, and I say we're going to do it, then we're going to, we're going to, we're going to try to get it done.
Stephanie Goss: And I think that I want us where I think we're going to take a break and talk and then come back and talk about action steps. And I want us to talk about this here because what I think is really important that everybody here right now is that neither one of us is saying. that it is always about you taking the responsibility and doing the things for free.
Because like your example just now, Andy, like when you have a pet that has the suture reaction, that was my thought here was maybe the pet reacted to the suture and that's why it burst. Like there's weird things that happen all the time. And as a manager, that would absolutely be a scenario where I might not.
Pay for the whole thing
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah,
Stephanie Goss: because I'm going to have a detailed conversation where the client also feels seen and heard and understands that there are things that we cannot control. Like we can control a lot in veterinary medicine. We do not control everything. And part of that is in how we set up those conversations both with the associate and with the client.
So let's take a, let's take a quick break and then let's come back and let's talk about those action steps.
Dr. Andy Roark: Sounds great.
Stephanie Goss: Hey friends. I know that Andy and I both talk a lot on the podcast about upcoming events that Uncharted has because A, we love what we do and we have fun talking about it and B, we want you to be a part of it. So we want to make sure that nobody misses out on announcements that we have awesome stuff coming up and C, because our team is freaking rock stars and they make sure that our website stays up to date with all of the information about the events.
So that you can find us and you can join us and you can spend some time working. On your business and not just in it with us, with the community, with our awesome outside speakers and more so if you haven't headed over to the website recently and checked out the events page, uncharted vet.com.
forward slash events. You should because it is jam packed full of all 2024. We've been talking about some of the awesome things that are dropping this year that are brand new, fresh and exciting for us. We've been talking about the oldies, but goodies, the things that we're continuing to do for our community, for you and beyond in 2024 and.
We're talking about stuff that is yet to come. So head over to unchartedvet. com forward slash events and check out everything that is on the website. We want to see you there. And now back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark: All right. So let's jump in with some action steps here. Big ones for me. You need, you need to, well, first of all, you need to figure out a loose plan of what you're going to say to the client. I think you're spot on. The, the, the two, the only two options are not, I'm going to pick up the whole tab at the emergency clinic or I'm going to pay for nothing.
I think you have to go talk to the client and see where their head's at. See what the what the emergency doctor said to them. What they saw. Maybe talk to the emergency doctor. Definitely, maybe look at the reports. I would talk to the emergency doctor. Just be like, what did you see? What happened? And then I would say, hey, this is kind of where we are.
You know, this is, this is why this happened. And again, it goes back to credibility. Credibility is telling the patent owner what to do. What happened, why it happened, and what we're going to do to reduce the risk of it happening to other people in the future. And I would, I would try to have a plan for that.
But you are going to have to talk to the pet owner and sort of see where their head's at. You know, it was funny in this, in this letter. The person said, they haven't done anything on social media, but I want to head it off. To me, kind of part of integrity is, it's kind of one of those things where it bothers me, this idea that people who bash us get treated better than people who Who silently put up with the same thing.
But because they're nice and they don't want to damage our small business, they don't go online. And so they don't get the treatment that the person who's like, I'm gonna burn you down gets. And so I'm kind of like, nah. It doesn't, to me, doesn't matter whether they put on social media or not. Does, does it, does it matter?
To feel like the right thing, you know, how do I feel about it? And so, anyway, some of that is just sort of getting an action plan, remembering your credibilities, right?
Stephanie Goss: Hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark: you know, if, if the pet owner reached out during business hours and said, Hey, I'm seeing this. And we said, Oh no, it's probably fine. I would say I would focus on that as that was our opportunity to get a man and saying, Hey, anytime you're.
Not sure things look okay after surgery, you should come in. I, I think that that was the step that was probably missed and just, That's one of those things where 99 times out of 100, they're gonna come in, You're gonna say, it's fine, you're gonna send them away. But that 1 out of 100 time, that's, that's a, that's a big deal.
Stephanie Goss: And I think that's a, I think that's the conversation with the associate is that it's a judgment call, right? And the reality of judgment calls is that sometimes we get it right and sometimes we get it wrong. Did we get it wrong in this case? I don't, I don't know, because maybe they would have come in and maybe the same thing would have happened.
Maybe they would have still sent it home because maybe it looks it, maybe it actually in person looks like a seroma, right? But we didn't afford ourselves that opportunity and that's what I would focus on as a, as a manager in terms of coaching is Maybe it still would have worked out the same exact way and we, the judgment call, didn't allow us the opportunity to even make that decision for ourselves, right?
And so, like, acknowledging the fact that judgment calls, sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. But it's, it's not about, it's not about blaming. And it's not about accepting fault. It's about apologizing for the impact that this had, right? And so from the, from the associate perspective, that's going to be my area of focus.
One is going to be figuring out what the underlying concerns are, making them feel seen and heard. So what, what is going on here? Like, what are you afraid of? What is your concern? What do you think would, is going to happen if we offer to pay for this? care. And why do you feel like the client is judging your medicine?
Where are those feelings coming from? You know, and, and figuring out how you can make them feel seen and heard, and also do some coaching with them to get them to understand that there are some things that you're going to just decide that they might not like. And that's just a part of being, being in a, in a group practice.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, right. No, I completely, I completely agree. I think you're, I think you're, I think you're spot on. You know, it's, It's very much in that line of, you know, I hear you, You know, this is, this is what we're going to do and, and not getting bogged too far down in it. I really, I don't want to compare our staff or our veterinarians to, to, to children, but I think that there's some parallels in that relationship of, it's, you're the, especially as a practice owner, like, you're, you're the, it's your, it's your reputation, it's your practice, and I want everybody to feel heard, and at some point I'm gonna have to make the call And everybody's going to have to get on board with it.
Now, I don't want them to feel steamrolled, but not everybody's going to like every choice that we make. And the big thing is, is you as a practitioner, you have a lot of power to make this a big deal or not make it a big deal. And you know at some point you just you can just say well I hear you this is what i'm going to do and this is sort of how i'm going to phrase it And so this is or or just say this is what I did This is this is what this is what was done is how we
Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark: you know, and and and go forward if you have someone who cannot Go on If their will is not followed in every decision, they're not gonna be on your team for long anyway.
And so that's that's okay. We need to normalize that if we can be nice and ultimately make the decision that needs to happen. But again, you're playing at a higher level. The doctor is looking at their own case. You're looking at All the cases, all the doctors, all the payroll, all the marketing, all the position in the community.
You look at all those things, they're trying to make the best call, and you can say that to them and say, Well, this is, this is a decision that we made. And you know, we emphasize that we didn't think there was anything wrong with the surgery, but a suture, suture failure is a thing. And let's just say, There was suture failure, possibly a reaction to the suture that was used you know, is one of those things.
It's like a side effect in medications. These things happen sometimes. We want to help try to make it, make it right and support you in the bat. Again, this is, it's a, it's an unfortunate situation, but we, we want to try to do what we can to help support you guys.
Stephanie Goss: and we talked a lot about building trust with the client, and I think the other piece of this, for me in the associate conversation, other than getting to the bottom of it, which I think that you have to do, and coming to the place where there is acceptance, and hopefully they feel seen and heard by you just starting to ask those open ended questions of, you know, like, I'm coming from a place of positive inquisition, like I want, I genuinely want to understand like what, what is going on here.
There has to be trust with the associate. And if you have a trusted relationship with them, you should be able to say to them, Hey, Do you trust me to have your back with this client and have this conversation? I am not going to say that you did anything wrong. I believe that you did the right things and it is possible for me to believe that you did everything right, that you're a competent surgeon and to be able to express that to the client and still do the thing that I feel like shows our integrity as a core value or is the right thing by the client.
And if you trust me, I should be able to have that conversation on your behalf. There may not, there may not be trust there. And that may be another conversation that you need to have with them. But we talked about that from the client perspective. I think it's equally, if not more important from the associate perspective, because the associate is feeling feelings clearly from the message that we got about not wanting to see the client and feeling like the client is judging them.
I, I need to understand where all of that is coming from because my first offer would be, do you wanna be in the room when I talk to the client? Because I, I've made that offer to my team. Like, I'm happy to have you sit here and listen to me, talk to the client, because I want you to know that I'm going to have your back.
It is possible for me to explain this sit situation to the client is possible for me to have the conversation with the client that, hey, sometimes things happen, sometimes suture fails. It may have been no mistake and. that have to been still opened. So the reality is the client still has to deal with that.
And so I want them to feel seen and heard. And you're welcome to sit in on that conversation. If it makes you uncomfortable or you don't want to be in the room or on the phone, I need, I need you to trust me. And there should be a trust bank there as a team member to dip into to have that conversation on your behalf.
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, I think you're, I think you're onto it. I don't know that I would go as far as to offer the person to be there. Again, just for me, I'm kind of like, look, this is, this is an extra. I mean, you're not wrong necessarily. To me, It's just kind of where my boundaries are, like look, you and I were talking about it.
And here's the other thing too. I would not commit to anything talking to the vet. I would say, look, I hear you. This is, this is what I'm looking at. I'm looking at our practice reputation. I am looking at, you know, this idea that they, they paid for surgery. And later that day, they were in the emergency clinic with, with Belle hanging out.
And like, I'm not saying that you did anything wrong. And I would not, and I won't stress that to, we can't act like this was the outcome that we anticipated. And the pet owner should feel fine about it. Like that's, that's, you, you don't, you don't believe that. And so, but we're gonna have to go talk to them.
Just so you know. And then, I would try to get that trust and then I would go talk to the pet owner because here's the thing, you can't promise anything until you see what they say. And so that would just sort of be it. But to me, I think trying to keep the stakes low and just sort of say, I hear you, I understand why this is important to you.
This is kind of where we are with the clinic. This is what we got to do. This is the type of, this is our clinic reputation. This is, this is how I want our pet owners to feel treated. I want them to be confident that things are going to get taken care of. And again, not your fault, but we, we have to clean up the mess because sometimes things go wrong.
That's just. Part of doing business in vet medicine, you know, and, and then I would just go do it. I would do whatever I could to not make it a big high stakes thing and just, just try to have the conversation and move past it. And what I don't want to do is have six meetings about it and, you know, include people in a bunch of conversations.
Like it's, all of that just builds it up as opposed to. Nope, it happened. I understand you didn't do anything wrong. You're concerned about them thinking you're a bad doctor. I'm not gonna let them think you're a bad doctor. I'm gonna do everything I can to frame this in a positive way for us in practice.
It doesn't make our practice look good. If they think that you made mistakes like we're gonna, I'm gonna go to bat for you. But ultimately, I'm going to do what we need to do to make this client as happy as I can and to make sure that we feel like our clients are getting the service and support that that we're going to feel good about.
Good about giving the money that we asked for that from them in exchange And so then I would go do it and then I would just be I would either not say anything after that or i'd come Back and be like, hey, just so you know, this is kind of what we worked out She was cool with it. Everything's fine You know bam and then i'd be done and I would not and like I would move past it and go on with my life
Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that, I think that follow up is really important of like, this is what, this is what happened. This was the end result. And this is how we're moving on.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yep, it's short, short and sweet and just it's not a let's have a sit down meeting. It's just a man. That's what the worry
are
Stephanie Goss: Yeah,
Dr. Andy Roark: and And the last thing it says in the communicating with a client. My only thing in the action steps of communicating the client is Start with compassion. How are you doing?
How did did you feel like you were treated well at the emergency clinic?
You know, how is, how is Scrappy doing?
And just start with that and just say, hey, obviously this is not something that we wanted. We've talked to the emergency doctors. You know, they don't know what happened either. All of the knots were intact.
There doesn't seem to be anything that was done wrong surgically. I don't know why we have suture, suture failure. It could have been, it could have been defective product. It could have been it could have been a, a reaction to the suture. And sometimes we can get allergic reactions to suture. There is a foreign.
Object and obviously it's made to produce a smaller reaction as possible But the body does strange things and sometimes we get stronger reactions and it's possible that that it that it that it broke down I I don't know. We want to try to help make this make this right. You know and and and just and go from there and sort of see, you know What can we do to support you and ask them ask them that and and then kind of roll with it from there
Stephanie Goss: and I think this is where, as a, the last thing for me is as a practice owner and as a practice manager, the number one thing that I think a lot of us forget in that moment, cause we're so focused on the vet and the client and who's going to pay and all of those things. Is Sometimes these things happen, and this is where our, our industry partners are our friends.
Like, you should absolutely call the product line and let them know, hey, this may, like, we had this case and we just wanted to report it because when those freaky things happen, A, that's how they know that there could be cost for concern, but maybe there's not, right? But it's not until they see a certain number of those cases that they're like, oh, hey, huh this batch of suture. We've had this many reports on this thing. Maybe we should do something about that. That's where like that, that for me was always the extra step. And, and I was like, you know, let me let someone know about this. And the other piece of it was I never did it with this intention. And it also really was great when those partners would say, Oh, Well, we have a process, fill out this form and we'll help take care of those costs at the ER or we'll help reimburse you for what, you know, what, whatever, we'll send you free suture.
Like that's where, that's part of taking care of the client. That's part of doing our due diligence as scientists on the medicine side is to say, Hey, this weird thing happened and someone else should know about it because maybe it's an anomaly, but maybe it's not.
Dr. Andy Roark: No, I think that's great to talk to the pet parent about, too, and it falls into that credibility thing of, hey, this is not normal, and we're not, we're not treating it as normal. The last thing I would say is just, and this is probably jumping back to Headspace, but I think it's a good place to put it here at the end action stepwise, you should do what is worthy of the reputation you want your practice to have.
That, that's, that's what you should do with the client. And, and what I'm, what I sort of say here is, I think it's, a lot of times people get really wound up about precedent. And if we do this, we'll have to do it again, and blah, none of that, none of that's true. Like that, that's, that's not true. Every case is going to be different. The other thing is I would ask the practice owner here and say, How often do things like this happen to you? Once every five years something like that Just eat it just eat it to me. You know what I mean? It's just it's not worth it If if now if it's happening once a month, we've got bigger problems Than than what we said the client in this specific instance we gotta figure out what's going on But if this is a weird lightning strike thing Yes, it sucks and it sucks to to have to help pick up the tab or even pick up the whole tab But if it happens once every couple of years Your peace of mind is worth something.
The story I just, I told about going to Canada, I would rather that be the story that gets told. And if anyone ever comes back and says, I heard it one time, Andy Roark didn't show up for one of his speaking gigs. I would say, it happened one time. And this is what I did to try to make it right. Because that's how much it bothered me.
And, was that overkill? Maybe, probably. Would I, do I expect other people to behave the same way? No. I,
Stephanie Goss: But it's what made you be able to sleep at night.
Dr. Andy Roark: But I, yeah, I sleep very soundly. And, and again, it's, but if, if it was, if I was missing gigs all over the place, uh, I would, I would have, I'd have, I'd have bigger problems. So anyway, but that was, again, a long time ago.
But that's, but that's what I needed to feel okay. And I do feel okay. I was like, yep, it happened. I did my absolute best to make it right. And then I went on with my life.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah. Whew. This is a fiery one.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh man. Thanks for doing this with me.
Stephanie Goss: Have a, this is, thank you. This is, this is fun. Have a fantastic week, everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark: Thanks, everybody.
Stephanie Goss: Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message.
You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com forward slash mailbag, or you can. Email us at podcast at unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
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