This week on the podcast…
This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice management geek, Stephanie Goss, are back and taking a fantastic email from our mailbag. A young associate is writing in to ask some questions about pro-sal. They started at their practice out of vet school on salary, which suited them fine. The practice was everything they were hoping for in a first job – good culture, good mentorship, good people. Now that they are a few years in to practicing, they find themselves hearing a lot about what colleagues are making. It seems like everyone else is on pro-sal and making the financial rewards that come from jam packed summer schedules. Our associate has a schedule that comes and goes in terms of busy-ness and they are wondering if they should be asking for a different setup than they have now. This episode is full of shoulds, which means Andy and Stephanie approach the word with caution because it can be dangerous. Let's get into this…
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Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to role play on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.
Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, we're taking an email from the mailbag. We've got an associate doctor who fell in love with their practice as a new grad coming out and they found mentorship, support, and a lot of the things that they were looking for in a job. Now they've been out of practice a few years and they are wondering: “Should my circumstances here change? Should I be getting paid more? Should I be getting paid differently? Should I get things that are different now than I needed them to be when I'd just got out of school?” There's lot of shoulds in this episode. It was really fun to dive into all the questions. Let's get into this.
Speaker 2:
And now: the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only Stephanie where-the-ocean-meets-the-sky-I'll-be-sailing Goss. How are you doing?
Stephanie Goss:
I want to hear you sing that one.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I've been working on my… Anyway, it's not gravely enough. I'm working on it.
Stephanie Goss:
I'm good. How are you?
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm good. I was in the car with Allison and that song had been on. It had been on and it was long over, and I was thinking about it. And I turned to Allison, my wife, and I said, “You know who I have become a fan of, who I really didn't appreciate until recently?” And she said, “Who?” and I said, “Rod Stewart.” And she did not look at me. She just said, “God, you're old.”
And I wonder if there's a phase in every man's life when Rod Stewart just takes on a different level of meaning. You know how old I am? I'm “Rod Stewart fan” years old. That's how old I am. I'm just like, “Oh man. Wake up, Maggie. I think I've got something to say to you.” It's like, Rod, you're speaking to me in a way that you didn't when I was in my thirties.
Stephanie Goss:
That is fantastic. You just completely dated yourself as middle-aged.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, totally!
Stephanie Goss:
… and I love it so much.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. You're like, “How old is Andy?” It's like, “I think he's getting into Rod Stewart.”
Stephanie Goss:
Oh God, that's fantastic. It's so funny, because I was listening to the nineties channel on my Sirius XM in my car, and Bryan Adams came on. And I had that same kind of moment where I was like, “Oh, I remember this.” And I remember my parents listening to this and thinking, “God, this is so old,” and I'm jamming along, and I was like, “Maybe I've hit that stage.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh man. Yeah, I think there's phases. I am not “Tony Bennett fan” old. I like Frank Sinatra just fine, but I could see another level that I will go to in the… You know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Uh-huh. Yes, yes, yes! Absolutely!
Dr. Andy Roark:
I get Frank Sinatra. I do enjoy some Frank Sinatra, but there's a level of fandom that I could absolutely move to. I'm just not there yet. I'm just not there yet.
Stephanie Goss:
You're not that old.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm not that old. You're exactly right. But 10 years from now, ask me again. I'll turn to Allison in 10 years and be like, “You know, I never really appreciated…”
Stephanie Goss:
Tony Bennett.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“Tony Bennett.”
Stephanie Goss:
And you know what your kids are going to say to you? Your kids are going to say, “Isn't that guy that was like 100 that sang with Lady Gaga?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
That's going to be how your kids know who you're talking about.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And then, when they come to me on my deathbed, I'll be laying there and I'll be like, “You know who they play in the hospital? Barry Manilow. And I like it. I just realized that I really like Barry Manilow.” And they'll cry and cry and cry. “He's leaving us.”
Stephanie Goss:
This is off to a fantastic start. We're off the rails. We're off the rails already and we're three minutes in.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
It's fantastic.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, we can reign this back in and get started. Hey. Just like people that know where I am in my life-
Stephanie Goss:
All right, so-
Dr. Andy Roark:
… and how things are going.
Stephanie Goss:
… we are at the Rod Stewart level. Just so y'all know, that is where we're starting this episode today. And I guarantee you that there are people listening right now who are going, “Who the hell is Rod Stewart?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Goss:
Because-
Dr. Andy Roark:
Young people.
Stephanie Goss:
… you and I are old.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, young people.
Stephanie Goss:
Exactly.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Worth a Google. He's worth a Google.
Stephanie Goss:
There's young whipper-snapper team members who are listening to this going, “Who the hell are these two talking about?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
I know. A lot of name-dropping people. People that are not remembered. All right.
Stephanie Goss:
That's where we're at today. Okay. I am excited about today because we have got a ProSal conversation that I think is going to be a fun one. We got a mailbag letter from a young associate who has been in practice for a few years now since getting out of vet school, and they joined their practice. And it had all the things that they wanted in a first practice out of vet school. They had good culture. Good people. They really liked the team. They liked the practice owner. They had good mentorship, which was really important to them and still is. And they took a salary and they felt good about that coming out of vet school, right? Because a good security blanket so you don't have to stress that about anything. “I'm just going to make a good salary and I feel good about this.”
And now a few years out, they are thinking about the advice that they got in vet school about financial compensation and looking at their setup and wondering, “Is it time that I should make the switch to ProSal? Because it seems like I could be making more money than I am if I looked at switching to that model.” And so, they're kind of looking at: What are they doing? Which I thought was a great first step. They looked at: What are they producing? What are they doing now? And they're in a practice where it seems kind of cyclical with their appointments. Sometimes it's up; sometimes it's down. Sometimes they're super busy and sometimes they're not. And they're just wondering: “When it is super busy, if I'm on ProSal, I get compensated for that, right?” So, lots of questions and just wondering: Where do they go?
So, they went to their boss and said, “I would like to make some more money,” and they asked for a raise; and good for them for advocating for themselves. But they apparently were turned down and the conversation was about taking more time off, which they were initially excited about, but also wondering: “How much time should I take off? How much time is too much time to ask for?” And so, lots of questions about compensation and how to be maximizing what they are making. They're happy where they are. They love the clients. They love the team and they recognize that they have benefits at this practice that they might not get other places that are non-monetary benefits. And at the same time, they are feeling like they are getting the short end of the stick when it comes to salary. And so, they asked: “Should I be advocating for more money at this point in my career given all of the things that I've shared with you guys?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I like this question a lot, because I think that the asker is in a headspace that I see a whole lot. And so, I have advice. I have thoughts.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So, let's start with this. There's two things that I want to put out at the very beginning in headspace right here. Right. So, the two things: Nothing matters except that this is a healthy relationship and both sides are getting what they need. There is no right contract. There is no right way to work.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There is no: “This is how it has to be.” All that matters is that you as an employee are in a healthy relationship and you're getting what you need, and that your employers are in a healthy relationship and they're getting what they need. There's not, “I should be on this,” or, “I should be on that,” or, “This is how it should be,” or, “This is how much paid time off I should have,” and, “That's too much time off,” and, “This is not enough time off.” None of that matters. There is no judge or jury who's going to look at your contract and say, “This is not right.” If it works for you and it works for them, then you guys should just go on.
And again, I just think, philosophically, that is really important, because I see so many people who just chew their fingernails about the agreement that they have. And I say, “Does this agreement suck? Does this agreement work for you?” And they're like, “Well, yeah.” And I was like, “Does it work for the other side?” They're like, “Well, yeah.” And I'm like, “Okay, good. Then I don't think that you should sit and ruminate over what it should be or what other people are going to think about the agreement. If it works for you and it works for them, the mission accomplished. Go on.” And so, that's the first place I just want to put down, because a lot of people are like, “Is this right?” And I'm like, “There is no right. No one's going to grade your agreement and say, ‘Ooh, you got a good agreement,' or, ‘You didn't get a good agreement.'” There's no such thing. And so, the other thing I want to call out, and this is a big part of headspace for me, is: Boy, this email is packed full of “should.”
Stephanie Goss:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“Should I be paid on ProSal? Other people are paid on ProSal. How much time should I take off? Should I get this perk? Should I have that perk? Should I get paid for when the place is busy? Should I be held accountable for when the clinic is not busy?” Should, should, should, should, should. Should is a dead end every time. There is no should. “Should I be on ProSal? How much vacation should a vet take? How should my salary stack up to my classmates'? Shouldn't I make as much as them, or more than them?”
Again, should doesn't matter and we make ourselves so miserable talking about what “should be” and how we “should have” this or we “should have” that; and there's no right there. And so, anyway, I don't mean to be critical of the person writing the email. I hope it doesn't sound that way. But just in headspace, at the very beginning, the answer to my question is going to be a hundred percent predicated on the idea that: There is no right relationship. All that matters is having a good relationship that gives you what you need and gives them what they need, and then going on. And then, the other part is: Beware of the word “should.” And we can start to dig into those things.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And I think that there's two pieces that go along with that, right? The first one that you lay down, and you say this a lot, which is: Comparison is the thief of joy.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think that culturally, especially here in the States, we are conditioned to look at others and compare. Our whole lives, it's like… I will give an example from my own life. As a young… I'm not young. I'm old. We just talked about how old we are. But as a middle-aged mom-
Dr. Andy Roark:
Are you into Rod Stewart yet-
Stephanie Goss:
No.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… or are you still not there?
Stephanie Goss:
I'm still not there. I'm “Bryan Adams” level.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, okay, you're “Bryan Adams” old. Oh, I remember that phase. Yeah, that was good. Back in the day. I remember that. Okay.
Stephanie Goss:
I remember vividly being a mom with toddlers and working a more-than-full-time job in the clinic, and I would come home and I would look at Instagram. And all I could think was that all of my friends, who I loved dearly and who also had kids my same age that I had known from playgroup and stuff, all I saw was: Their houses were clean. There wasn't kids' toys everywhere. There wasn't dishes piled in the sink. And all I could ever do was compare myself to them.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And I wasn't looking at it and thinking, “God, they suck.” I was looking at it thinking, “God, I suck.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Goss:
“Why can't I keep it together? Why can't I have the time and energy?” And so, I think that is just a thing, especially with social media, it makes it really, really easy to compare ourselves to others. So, number one, just recognizing that that is something that we are subconsciously, and sometimes consciously, conditioned to do to ourselves is compare. So, that's-
Dr. Andy Roark:
What-
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, go ahead.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I just want to jump in on this, because I completely agree on the social media part; but I just want to jump in real quick, because I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Now, I think there are good things about social media and people being connected and our industry being much more connected. It's kind of like knowing what's going on with the neighbors, where if there's something you're struggling with and you understand that the neighbors are also struggling, it's validating. You go, “Oh. Yeah.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so, I think there's a lot of stuff with burnout and mental health that has been really good so that people don't feel like they're so alone.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I also think that at some point you can know too much about the neighbors-
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… and you can get wrapped up in what the neighbors are doing and: “How do we compare to the neighbors”? And I think that those are two sides of the same coin.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I don't know how you could ever have social media in a way where you got all the good parts of being connected, but not the comparison parts of being connected.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So, anyway, I've just been thinking about this recently, the whole “comparison's the thief of joy.” I think social media ratcheted that up for people in a way that it didn't use to.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
We just didn't have access to people constantly to compare ourselves to them. The neighbors went to work and we went to work, and then you might see them watering their lawn later in the day.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But it's not now. It's like you're with them at work and you're seeing inside their house and all of these things and it's just… I don't know. I use “neighbors” as a metaphor for other professionals, but I think you get it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So, anyway, I'm right there with you.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. So, that's the first piece. And then, the second piece that you talked about is the shoulds.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think it's worth talking about a point that I have discussed a lot with my colleagues in practice, but also with vet students and with newer grads. And I think that there is a movement in the vet schools which is very positive in that they are teaching the students to advocate for themselves and really talking about the different options for salary, and when it comes to contract negotiations, and they're getting a lot of education, which is wonderful. And the way that the information is being received… I'm not currently in vet school so I can't judge it firsthand.
The way that the information seems to be received, and therefore the perception of professionals engaging with young students who are coming out of school and trying to hire them, is that they are being told what they should do. Not that it's being presented in, “Here's all the options,” but that there's a lot of advocacy for a gold standard, if you will, of: “This is what a contract should look like when you get out of school.” And I think that that is adding to this comparison anxiety for a lot of these young grads coming out, which is: “Oh, this is what they told me in school that I should ask for or that I should get.” And I've had conversations with some of them and have asked point-blank, “Tell me what you learned about in school. Tell me what they taught you about contract negotiations, about salary, and how this works in the real world.”
And the perception as a professional interviewing these new grads is very much that they are getting, from some of their professors, a very specific view that seems to be slanted towards “should,” which has very strong pros and cons, right? I'm really glad that they are advocating for themselves and I'm glad that they are having conversations that a lot of people didn't feel empowered to do even just a 5-year or 10-year generation ago of vets, right? I think about vets who went to vet school around the time that you did and they were just like, “I came out and was like, ‘I just need this amount of money to pay my loans,' and I am not really going to have in-depth conversations about what I want or what I think I should get.” It was like, “This is the going salary rate. As long as you're offering me that, it's great.” Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And now it is a very much a: “Well, in school they told me that I should get this and I should get this and I should get this,” and so I think that some of that should-ing is coming from a place that has very good intentions but has ill-advised consequences when it comes to the new grads comparing themselves to each other or comparing themselves to a standard that a professor has shared with them that they should be setting.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. So, I'm going to pause here and talk about “should,” and then we'll talk about ProSal specifically. We'll get into that. But I just want to pause here. I have seen people wreck so many wonderful opportunities because they get hung up on what “should” be and how this “should” go.
Stephanie Goss:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So, for example, I cannot tell you, because the weird job I have, how many people I've interacted with in the last, say, 15 years who have had opportunities that they were genuinely very excited about, and they went and they researched these opportunities and said, “What should I get paid for this and how should this go?” And they have grabbed onto these numbers, or these conditions, that they went and they found and they made them deal-breakers.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Like, “I need to get this or else I'm not doing it.” And for whatever reason, the other side is like, “We can't do that,” and then the whole thing falls apart. And I'm like, “Man, you ended up not getting to do this thing you were excited about because you found some sort of arbitrary number that you thought you should get paid, or title that you should have, or perk that you didn't really care about but you thought you should get this, and because the other side was not able to give you this thing that you found, you were like, ‘Well, I should get that, and I'm not getting that, so I'm not going to do this.'” And ultimately, you go, “Great. You gained nothing. You went right back to where you were because you didn't get your employee parking spot that you were told you should have.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right, right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I was like, “Was that really worth it?” I'll give you another example. So, I remember distinctly I was working with somebody and there was a marketing position in their own practice that was being created. And so, they worked on the floor. They were a technician. Something like that. And the practice was going to have a marketing position. It was going to be a couple hours a week or whatever, and they were just going to do marketing and things like that. And this person went, and they really wanted to do it. They liked marketing. They wanted to do social media. It was a skillset they wanted to grow and expand. They looked up salaries for marketing managers, and if you find salaries for marketing managers in other industries, those numbers don't line up with what you can expect to get paid in that medicine, in my experience.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But this person was like, “No, this is what I should get paid.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And ultimately, of course the vet clinic was like, “Look, we can't pay that.” And she said, “Well, that's what I should get paid, and so I just can't do it if I don't get this. Because this is what I should make.” And she didn't get the position and somebody else got it, and somebody else happily got a little pay bump and then got to go and do these things and learn these skills and shake up their job a little bit and try new things.
I look at that and I was like, “You could have gotten a little pay bump and done work that you were excited about doing and grown yourself. And maybe after you had gotten these skills, if you wanted to leave the industry and go to a different industry where that is the pay scale, then you could have had the opportunity. But now you don't have that experience and so you can't even do that in the future because of what you decided you should get paid.” And again, there's always a line here, right? Everything's on a spectrum. Stephanie and I are not saying, “Oh, you should take whatever people offer you.” You know what I mean? “And you should be naive about what your time and your energy is worth.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But I've just seen so many people who grab onto something in their mind and they don't do something that could make them really happy purely because they “should” get something else or they “should” be able to achieve something they're not achieving or they “should” be treated in a way they don't feel like they're being treated. And so, I've just seen that tank so many opportunities that people could have been happy about if they had just said, “All right, how much do I want to do this?”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“Am I happy? What would this allow me to do… Not monetarily, but just as far as my enjoyment and my skills and my development. Okay, great. What do I need to make here so that I don't feel taken advantage of and so my needs are met?” And I have found that that is such a healthy way to approach it, where everybody feels good. And then, if you get into it and you're like, “Oh man, this is way more work than I thought. I'm not being compensated where I should be. I'm going to go back and say, ‘Hey, this is way more than I thought it was. I want to talk about the compensation here based on the amount of hours and the time and…'” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you should be able to go back and have those discussions. But, again, people… Oftentimes, they just kind of freak themselves out about what should be. And I think it's driven a lot by… There's a lot of perfectionism around it of: “I need to get this right.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And what is “right” is so arbitrary. Anyway, that's the “should.” Let me talk about ProSal for a second, because that's another big part of this that people have sort of put forward.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And, again, I don't know exactly what people… I think everyone probably has a slightly different approach to this. I don't know how common it's for vet schools to say, “You need to make ProSal.” I don't know. So, for people who don't know, ProSal is this way of paying, generally, doctors, where you guarantee the doctor a base salary. And this should be a low base salary, but the idea is, “Hey, no matter what happens, you can expect to make this amount of money.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so, the basic thing is they give you a floor in what you will earn, and then they track your production numbers. And they pay you either the base salary or 20%, 22%, 24% of what you produce, whichever one is greater. And the idea is if things are slim and there's not a lot of people coming in the practice, you're still going to get paid. You're going to get paid at your base salary. So you know that you can count on that.
But if you were absolutely slam bonkers, you're not going to work yourself like crazy and make the salary. You are going to benefit from the extra work that you do, because you're going to get paid for that extra work. And so, that's how ProSal works. And you can see that there are benefits of it, because if you think that you are going to do X amount of work and when you get there, you're actually doing 2X amount of work, that's still probably very stressful.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But you're going to get compensated for that higher amount of work that you're doing. And so, in that way, you don't feel taken advantage of; and that's good. However, there are drawbacks to ProSal that I would put forward here. And there's really two big ones for me. The first drawback to paying doctors on ProSal, for me, is the ethical concern. And, again, I'm not saying that ProSal is bad; however, I do think that you can make a strong argument… And I heard this argument made this week. And I've had this argument in my head for a long time, but I had heard it out loud from someone else just this week. And it is: “How do you feel about doctors that are paid on commission?”
Because that's what it is. Do you feel okay if you were a pet owner and a doctor was like, “Hey, I think what we're going to need to do is we're going to need to do these extra tests,” or, “We're going to do these tests and here's the estimate for a dental cleaning, and I really think you should get this dental cleaning done”? If you knew the doctor was taken home 22% of whatever you spent, would you feel differently about those recommendations than if you knew that the doctor was paid on salary and she doesn't really care? Whether you do it or not do it, it doesn't mean anything to her. She's making this recommendation because she think it's the right thing to do. Does that matter to you?
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And, to me, that's always bothered me a little bit, just in the back of my mind. And when pet owners get mad and they say, “Well, you're just doing this for the money,” the fact that there is a direct relation between this person following my recommendation and me getting paid: I don't like that. It makes their criticism feel a little bit more defendable than it would if I got a salary and I'm like, “I don't care what you do, lady. I'm just telling you what I think is best for your pet.” And so, this was said back to me this week. I was talking to an emergency vet, and he talked about being paid on salary. And he said he had a pet owner that flipped out and was screaming at him that he was just doing this for his own-
Stephanie Goss:
For the money.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, for the money and his own salary.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And he got to look at her and say, “Ma'am, I'm paid on a salary. I get paid exactly the same if you say yes and I do this, or if you leave and I go to bed. I get paid the exact same.” And that kind of diffused that situation for her, and I thought, “Man, there's power in that position.”
Stephanie Goss:
Well, I think we have framed the discussion around it… Because people in veterinary medicine are compassionate, caring people and they are doing it for the patients, and the money conversation has never sat well for the majority of people in veterinary medicine… Although, there are people in veterinary medicine who are money-motivated and that is a motivator for them.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Stephanie Goss:
But the vast majority of them have looked at it in the sense of how hard they work and the volume of cases that they're seeing versus the individual “I'm going to make recommendations that I don't believe in,” that has always been the line, I think, with anybody that I have worked with. It has been like, “I don't want to be the used car salesman.” Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Totally. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I don't ever want to make a client feel like I am upselling them for my recommendations. I want them to trust me. And I can see your point that, regardless of how we frame it, the end result is their pay is still impacted by what the owner decides and you can't back away from that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
That is the reality. And I think most people don't look at it that way because it has been framed, we have consciously or unconsciously framed it for ourselves as an industry, about: “If I work this hard or if I work this much harder or I see this many patients…” And honestly, for most of the veterinarians that I've worked with, the conversation in their head has been, “If I skip lunch, if I take this hour away from my kids, if I stay late and give up something for my patients, then I should benefit.”
And I think, when you think about it, like talking this out loud, that argument is just as dangerous as the financial argument of: “Are we upselling them to get more money in our paychecks?” Because I can see the truth of it there, and I can see a lot of truth in the way that we have chosen to frame that conversation for ourselves as an industry in the direct impact to mental health and the way that the burnout and the stress factor that veterinarians have. Because veterinarians who are on ProSal, that is absolutely the way that it is framed in a lot of their minds and the way that they're looking at it is, “If I just give up being home in time for dinner with my kids, I'll see these patients and…”
They're not thinking about it, “I'll see these patients and therefore I'll get paid more in the moment.” Right? To be clear, I am not judging anybody. I have never worked with a veterinarian who in the moment is like, “Well, I'm going to see this case because when I get my paycheck, it's going to be bigger.” It has always been about, “I'm going to take care of this patient,” and the reason in the very back of their mind that they say yes is because the trade-off is there financially. That's the security net at the end of the month, right? And so, I think that there is something to that about how it impacts the mental health and the burnout rates in veterinary medicine, because we've conditioned ourselves to look at it that way.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. So, I'm going to jump in here and I want to agree strongly with something you said at the beginning. Let me be clear about my position on ProSal. I am not anti-ProSal. I am explaining why I don't think ProSal is a perfect solution, and they are valid criticisms against it that I see. And so, I agree with you completely, Stephanie. I'd like to say I don't know any, but I don't know many at all who I feel like are financially motivated and using production pay in an unethical way.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I do think that if you do ProSal in your practice, it's your responsibility as management to watch that and manage that. Which means if people are doing sleazy stuff to run up-
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You need to manage that.
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Absolutely.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That is not okay. And that's what ProSal going off the rails looks like. Now, every system needs management, so that's not a deal-breaker. I completely agree that, for most vets, they look at it as, “Hey, when I work really hard, at least I feel like I benefit from that.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's not, “I'm getting paid on commission and I'm going to act like a sleazy salesman.” I'm saying that, one way or another, and I know that it's not how most vets act or behave, we are getting paid on commission, basically, with that.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I think we need to talk about what that looks like. And it's always bothered me that I wouldn't want the pet owners to know that. And if there's ever something that I look around and I'm like, “I'm dealing with this person, I don't want them to know something,” I always stop and check myself, because I go, “Ooh, I don't”-
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I like to be completely transparent. And anytime I'm embarrassed about how I get compensated, that bothers me. And so, anyway, I think it's true. I think you're totally right, too. And, again, I'm not trying to push on this too, too hard because I'm not anti-ProSal. I'm really not. But if you get into ProSal and you're making your bonus pay, you're just disincentivized to take vacation.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You are disincentivized to take your lunch break. You are disincentivized to use your time off just in general. You just are. It's how you look at it. So, you look at this and you're like: Man, when you're in the clinic, you're earning your bonus. Well, what that means is when you're not in the clinic, you're not earning your bonus. And so, it can flip around, and so by that compensation strategy, there is this certain pressure for you as the vet to be there and be seeing patients and cases.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so, I think that that's just true and it kind of puts an extra sort of level of stress onto what we're doing. And the last thing I'm going to say about ProSal is this, and I've just seen this just in people in general: The grass is always greener on the other side. And so, what happens is when I see doctors who are on salary and they're busy, they're like, “Ugh, why am I not on ProSal? Why am I not getting paid production?” But then, when the clinic slows way down, if they're on ProSal, they're like, “Ugh, why am I on salary?”
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yes. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“It's not my fault this isn't coming in.” I think some people paint this picture that ProSal is basically salary, and if you do any more work than you think is warranted, then you get paid extra for that. And I'm like, “Hmm, that's not really how it is.” The difference in ProSal and salary is… One of the benefits of ProSal is, for the owners: If they put you on it and things slow down, you're not earning bonuses. So your salary is not as big as it would otherwise be, and that gives them some peace of mind if they're not sure that they're going to stay busy.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's just how it works. It's not, “Let me figure out what to pay you in salary and then I'll just bonus you on top of that.” Generally, the way to really look at salary too, and then I'll move off of this: I think salary done well is basically ProSal on a very long cycle; which means, for the most part, if I was going to put a doctor on salary, especially a doctor who'd been there, I would look at what the doctor produced last year, and that would be a pretty strong guide in what their salary for this year was going to be.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And you say, “But, Andy, that's the same thing.” I would say: Yeah, it is, but it's over a whole year. And so, those day-to-day pressures of, “I should skip my lunch break and see this patient,” that's just not there, because over the course of the year, it's not the same driver as: Boy, every three months you're going to get this bonus check if you do this. It takes a lot of the pressure off and the spreads everything out. But, again, I'm sure coming out of this, people are going to be like, “Andy Roark says we should all get paid on salary.” Didn't say that. Just saying, I'm laying all of this down, because I need to make the point here that I think there are some very good reasons that a clinic would not pay a doctor on ProSal. And it's not about taking advantage of them. It's just saying, “Hey, we have beliefs about work-life balance. We have beliefs about what we're going to tell pet owners about how our people are compensated, about whatever. This is just our business model. We are getting started as practice owners and we know that we can pay this salary. We can put it into our budget. It makes sense for us. We're going to do it.” I think that there's just a lot of reasons to not pay ProSal. Again, not wrong to want to be paid that way, but there are some good arguments against it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I agree with you. We talked about ProSal, but from the headspace perspective, is there anything else headspace-wise that you can think of before we jump into action steps?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah. Last things I'm going to throw in for headspace is: Empathy for the bosses that are starting out. So, and this request is like, “Hey, we've got these doctors and they're getting this new practice up and going,” and I would try to have some empathy for the other side and say: Boy, when you're starting a new practice, you don't know what you're getting into. You don't know if pet owners are going to show up or not. You've got these hopes.
I'll tell you as a business owner, boy, I've had plenty of times where I thought, “Boy, this is really going to grow,” and it did not grow. Or it grew, but it took five times longer than I thought it was going to take; and you just don't know. And so, I think having some empathy for the other side when they're like, “We don't exactly know where things are going to be a year from now, and so we're trying to couch this.” When this person says, “They say I can have unlimited vacation,” to me, that's often a strategy where someone says, “I don't know how much cash I'm going to have. I just don't know much cash I'm going to have, but vacation is valuable and we will figure out how to let you be off because we know we can do that.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
You know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so, having some empathy for them I think is important. This all goes back to: How much time off should a veterinarian take? There's not a right answer about what you should be. If they say, “Take this time off,” and you take a month off and, yeah, your salary is lower than your peers, but you got a month off.
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yes. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
If you're happy about that, then go and rock out. And it's not wrong if you say, “No, I really need to make more money than these people can pay us.” It doesn't make you bad.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It doesn't make you bad. It's just, they can't pay you that, and it's not good or bad. I think it'd be important to not get caught up in “should,” what I “should” make, and say, “Is this working for me and is it working for them?”
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Enjoy your time off. When I graduated from vet school, I had a classmate who went on to be wildly successful as a doctor. Wildly successful. She took the lowest salary of any of my friends, and she got six weeks off a year because she liked to travel. And so, she was like, “Yeah.” She'd had the lowest salary of any of the vets that I knew, and she was off two to three times more than the rest of us. And she turned out just fine. But that's what she wanted.
And so, anyway, the last thing is: Remember that first job concerns are common. Right? You don't know yourself starting your first job. You don't know what you're going to need. You don't know how you're going to want to work. Don't beat yourself up and say, “Oh, this doesn't look right,” or I don't know. Just know that it's much easier to have these conversations after you practice for a while and you know what you care about and you know what your priorities are. You just don't have the experience usually starting your first job as a doctor to do that. So, anyway, that's my headspace.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it. Okay. You started to steer into some of my thoughts for action steps, so let's take a break here and then we'll come back and dive into: Okay, how do we answer the “should” questions that were asked?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Let's do it.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, friends. Are you a veterinary practice owner? No? Well, are you a veterinary practice manager? If the answer to either of these questions is yes, I want you to keep listening. If it's not yes, you can take a quick pee break or get some water before we head back into the podcast, because I've got something for my practice owners and my practice managers. We are hosting our first ever practice leader summit. And if you're not an owner or manager and you're still listening and you're thinking, “But I'm a practice leader,” don't worry. We've got you. We've got more events coming. But this first one is happening in December in Greenville, South Carolina. It will be decorated for the holidays. We are going to come together.
Now, we're going to come together, but we're going to be separate. What are you talking about, Stephanie? Well, Andy and I have planned a whole bunch of new content with our team, and we are excited to bring managers together to talk to other managers, and owners together to talk to other practice owners, and then we're going to put everybody together and we are going to get to work. That's right. We are going to work on our practices. Our ideal hope would be that manager and owner combos can come together, but we recognize that won't work for some practices, so we have plans to hook you up with other owners and managers if you're coming solo on either side. So don't worry, but don't delay.
Head over to the website unchartedvet.com/events because we want to see you there, and that means you have to sign up because this will sell out. Don't miss your chance to come work on your practice with your practice owner, with your practice manager. You can find out more information, including a letter that you can use to convince your boss if you are a practice manager. Or maybe practice owners: some reverse psychology to use on your manager to get them to come to Greenville with you. Again, it's all up at the website at unchartedvet.com/events. And now, back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, so what do you want to do for action steps?
Stephanie Goss:
Well, I think one of the action steps you already started to call out, which for me is a little bit of a headspace, but it's action in the sense that I think that this veterinarian, and anyone who finds similarities between their situation and this veterinarian's situation, is that you have to sit down and look at yourself. Stop thinking about “should.” Stop comparing yourself to other people. Think about yourself. Are you happy or are you not happy? And if you're not happy, why? Have your circumstances changed? Do you need to make more money than you're actually making? What is that floor that you need to feel good about your job? And asking all of those questions on a personal level is very, very important, because I don't think you can have a conversation with your bosses about what you need and advocate for yourself in any way until you have actually answered the questions of: What is it that you want? Are you truly looking at this because you feel like you should?
And as you pointed out, Andy, earlier: Stop looking at the “shoulds.” Look at yourself, and if you don't have a problem with it, then let it go and move on with your life. Right? Or if you're looking at it and you're like, “Well, I asked for more money and they gave me more time off,” are you okay with that? Does that suit you? Does that suit your lifestyle? Stop looking at yourself compared to other people and sit down and do the mental gymnastics of: “What do I actually want?” And then, there's also a step in between “where I am now” and “what I want,” which is: “What do I need?” And figuring out for yourself where those three lines are. Where am I now? What do I need? And what do I want? And then, I think only when you have done that work are you actually ready to think about: “How do I actually have this conversation with them?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yep. Yeah. I'm right there with you. Remember, it's not about good or bad. They're not trying to rip you off. It does not sound at all like anyone's trying to take advantage of anyone. They're trying to do what they can do and they're trying to offer you what they can offer you. And you've got to figure out what you need and go back, and know that for everything you asked for, you're probably going to have to give something else up, and it's about making it work for everybody.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's what it is.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right. And so then, yeah, we're ready to have the conversation. But first, you have to know yourself, and you have to put aside what you should have and figure out: What do you really need? What do you really want? And then, go in and have a SAFE conversation; and we talk about this a lot. We talk about SAFE. SAFE is… “S” is: Can you sit next to this person? Can you smile at them? Do not go in there when you're angry. Just do not.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You should just get into a healthy headspace.
Stephanie Goss:
Or when you've had a long day or you're angry.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
Like you've been seeing patients and you skip lunch, that's not the day to have this conversation.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Exactly.
Stephanie Goss:
Even if you have it scheduled, that's not the day to have the conversation.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“A” is: Assume good intent, which means it's in your best interest to believe these people are doing their best. They're trying to run a practice. They're trying to make you happy and also not overcommit and put themselves out of business in their mind. Things like that.
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Assume that they're doing their best and they're trying. “F:” have they been set up to fail? What here is your fault? And what I mean is: It helps me to go in and say, “What have I not told them?” If I'm upset about my salary, but I haven't told them that I'm upset about my salary, then that's on me.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
If I have something that's changing in my life that's going to require more money, and so that's weighing on me, but I haven't communicated to them that I'm feeling this financial pressure, I can't be mad at them for something I didn't tell them or that they don't know.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So, “Have they been set up to fail?” meaning: Is there information they haven't had? Things I haven't communicated? What's my fault? Same thing. And the last thing is “E,” which is: End result, which is, “What do you want the end result to be?” And I think that that's part of knowing what your needs are going in. And I would say the other part for end result is, remember, a lot of times the end result is not to get what we want. A lot of times, the end result is to inform them of where our head's at, ask some good questions, acquire some more information, and continue the conversation forward. A lot of times, it's not, “I'm going in there, I'm going to tell them what they need, and they're going to give it to me or there's going to be consequences.” That's a terrible way to go to this meeting. It's to go in. It's to communicate. It's to try to understand where they're coming from, to communicate what I need, and then see if we can move this conversation forward.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think the step for me that comes there along with SAFE that has to do with the prep work is that: If the end result is to have both sides be seen and understand where they're coming from and acknowledge the fact that they're not out to get you, they're not out to rip you off, they're taking care of you, from the business side, I think part of that prep work is you should know what your total compensation looks like. Because as this associate mentioned in their email, they understand that the money, the salary is only a piece of it.
There are also the benefits, both financial fringe benefits, things like paid time off, things like healthcare benefits or that kind of thing, that actually has a hard cost for the business, and there are the soft costs benefits; being able to truly have mentorship that you feel supported and believed in by. Being able to have a high staff to doctor ratio. There's a lot of those things that often don't get factored in when someone is… My experience as a manager is that I have had countless conversations with team members, from paraprofessional staff to my doctors, where we have sat down and nothing but the salary has been factored into the conversation.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Mm-hmm.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, from a prep perspective, part of getting SAFE is to understand that as a business owner, I am absolutely going to look at the conversation from the big picture. And so, as an employee, in terms of how have you been set up to fail, but also maybe how have they been set up to fail, if you haven't done your homework and you haven't looked at what is your actual total compensation, my suggestion would be don't have the conversation yet. Don't skip that step. Sit down and do it, because the first thing that I'm going to do as a business owner, whether I do it with you or whether I do it when we're done with that first conversation, is look at: What is your total compensation and where does that percentage fall? Because that is an absolutely important critical piece of the mathematical equation for whether I am breaking even with an employee or not.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree. I think you start this conversation with appreciation and stating your desire to maintain the relationship. And that seems like a small thing.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's a huge thing, and people miss it, is: Open up the conversation talking about your appreciation for them and the clinic that they're running and the culture that they've built. And I would go ahead and start by laying out all the things I love about being at this hospital.
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Being supported, having the mentorship, all of those things.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Absolutely.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Exactly. I would lay all those things down so that they feel seen and appreciated. There's nothing worse, as a business owner or a boss, when you are doing all that you can for somebody and they walk in and they look at you and they say, “My friends make more money than I do.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it just discounts all of the things that you have tried to do for them because, in that moment, it sounds like all they care about is the dollars.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's so demoralizing and it makes you feel so unseen and so unappreciated. And so, anyway, start with appreciation. And state up front: “I want to be here. I like this place. I want to be here.” And that will just lower the stakes a bit for everybody. Because as a manager, again, when somebody comes in and goes, “I need to make more money,” for whatever reason, we catastrophize right away as, “Oh, she's saying she needs to make more money or she's going to leave.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Absolutely.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right.
Stephanie Goss:
I was going to say, even if you don't phrase it in any way, shape, or form like an ultimatum, when you start with the money and there is not the appreciation tie, it absolutely already, in my head, feels like an ultimatum, even before more words have come out of your mouth. That's our little caveman brains. That's where it jumps to every time.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And so, then after that, the next step for me is ask questions. I wouldn't even go in and say, “I need to make more money.” I would go in and say, “Are you open to talking about salaries and how the doctors here are compensated?”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“And why you chose to pay salary to the doctors.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“Would you be open to talking about that?”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And ask questions. “Why do they pay salary? Why don't they do ProSal?”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“Would you be open to talking about production-based compensation or a ProSal model?”
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yeah, I love that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“Do you have concerns about that?” And I'm sure that the thought has crossed their mind, but again, it's seek first to understand and just asking those questions of: “Why is this set up the way that it is?” And they might say, “Look, I'm going to be honest with you. We have startup costs and we try to avoid taking loans early on and we are really strapped for cash. And so, this allows us to be safe. And we try to give you guys a bunch of vacation to make up, because we know that we can't pay what other people pay, and this is why we're doing it.” And then, at least you know what they're up against and what you're dealing with. You're just so much better off having this conversation that way.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Because I think on the flip side, too: I have absolutely worked with practice owners where the conversation has been: “I guess I just never considered it because I figured you would feel safer getting a salary and not having to worry about whether you're going to make your check or not.” Right? It is not always in our heads. We frame ourselves for the negative argument, and I think that you absolutely have to look at it that there is not always a negative argument. Sometimes it is that they made that choice because they thought it was what you wanted or because they thought that it was what was going to be most supportive. And so, just by asking the question, it opens the door for them to be like, “Yeah, let's talk about it, because I never thought that that'd be something you'd be interested in.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, totally. What if… And I'm just spitballing. What if they were like, “Man, when I was a vet, I wanted time off. I wanted to be able to walk away from the practice. We really care about burnout, so we're going to let you be away. And if we give you a bunch of time off but we pay you on production, you're not going to use the time off and it totally undermines the whole central thing we're trying to do that we think you'll love”? And, again, I can see that being the rationale, but you just got to ask the question. You already mentioned it. Beware ultimatums. People do not like the “old tomato,” as we used to say at my house. Do not give them the old tomato.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No one wants to feel stuck of, “We're having a negotiation and you're going to make me happy, or else.” That's just bad juju. And, again, I hope that that's not the plan. Some people actually make plans to do that, which is terrible. More often than not, we don't think about how we're presenting ourself and we end up giving the impression that, “You make me happy or I'm going to walk,” and that just makes everybody's cortisol shoot up. They get really tense. People do not like to feel threatened and ultimatums could feel like threats. Just don't frame as ultimatum. Ask questions. Ask them what's possible.
Remember that clear is kind, and I think between talking about looking at your total package, your total compensation, thinking about what you actually need, what you actually want, what's going to make you happy, and then communicating to them what you think you need, ideally why you think you need that, that's just good business. As an employer, I would much rather someone come to me and say, “Hey, I'm really struggling. I'm not getting what I need to get. These are my financial realities.” And I would love them to say that to me as opposed to not saying that to me and just take another job and be like, “Hey, I took another job because I'm not getting what I need here.” I would feel stabbed in the back. I'd feel like you didn't give me an opportunity to try to figure out how to meet your needs. I would much rather know where your head's at, in a non-accusatory way, than to be surprised.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Yeah, because you can't help if you don't have the information. And I'm not talking about you need to spill your whole life story and the details of your bank account to your boss, but if there is a place that you are at where you're like, “I can't help you if I don't know what you need,” and so you have to be able to communicate that. Is it you need $1,000 more a month or is it $10,000 more a month? I need that kind of information to know what is feasible for me as a business, right? And I can just guess, really, because without that information, that's what I'm doing. It's just taking a shot in the dark and hoping that it works.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And the last thing for me is: Get creative. I think a lot of times, especially when we talk about money, we're like, “All right, we're talking about money.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And the problem with money is money is a zero-sum game every time, which is: “The more you get, the less I have.” One of us is getting money and the other one is giving up money-
Stephanie Goss:
Is not. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… and there's no way around that. That's what money is. However, if you look at this conversation as a mutually beneficial problem-solving exercise, suddenly everything gets so much easier. Do you need money or are there schedule flexibilities that you would like to have? Do we need to get over this guilt about taking time off and feel good? I don't know. Are there ways that the practice could help you out that's not bumping your sound up? Maybe not. But the more ways that we can approach this, the more tools that we can use to meet my needs and meet your needs, the more likely we are to succeed.
If there's only one tool and that's dollars, well, if I don't have the dollars to give to you, I don't know how we make this work; and that's sad. Oftentimes, it's not really just about straight dollars. A lot of times, there's other things that we can do. We can get creative in how to get our needs met. But I've seen a lot of people shut all the doors except the money door, and then no resolution is met and everyone's unhappy and whole thing falls apart. And so, that's it.
The last, last thing I would say is: You signed a one-year commitment, and that's it. That's all. You should not feel guilty about leaving if this doesn't work for you. And, again, that's how I look at a lot of these things is: When I do an agreement as a doctor, or as an employer, we look at this and we say, “All right, look, you're going to come here and this is what we're going to pay you and we're going to see how it goes.” And honestly, your contract should have termination clauses in it which says, “If either side is unhappy, this is how we end this agreement.”
That stuff is all laid out that you can end that agreement. And my advice is just be professional and be kind, and try not to take this personally. Sometimes relationships don't work out, and that's okay; as long as you've done the other things and you've communicated and you've tried to make it work. I see some people who were like, “Man, I took this job. I did it for a year and then when my contract came up, I didn't renew and I feel terrible about it.” And honestly, one of our most popular episodes ever, it may be the single most popular Uncharted Podcast episode ever, is how to put in our notice without the guilt.
Stephanie Goss:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I think we had an episode on that.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But anyway, that's my last thing is to say: Sometimes these things don't work out. It's not a moral failing. It is what it is. It doesn't mean that they're villains because they couldn't keep you there. It doesn't mean that you're a jerk because your needs were not getting met after a year and you wanted to go try another type of practice. It is what it is.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, this was a fun one.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There's a lot here. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I think we had unpacked quite a bit into that. There was lots of gems, including how old you are and that you have hit middle-aged dad status.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Rod Stewart.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Rod Stewart.
Stephanie Goss:
I can't wait to see the magic that Dustin does with that gem when he edits it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
With Rod Stewart? Oh, man.
Stephanie Goss:
I'm going to be highly disappointed if I don't hear some Rod Stewart in the background.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I don't know that we can sample Rod Stewart. I have no idea what's involved in that.
Stephanie Goss:
Take care, everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right.
Stephanie Goss:
Have a fantastic week.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Thanks, guys. Bye.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
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