When Layoffs Hit Hard

This Practice Manager, like many, is not looking forward to letting someone at their practice go but what makes this particularly challenging is that this person has already expressed financial concerns. This week, Stephanie Goss is joined by Rebecca Rose, an RVT, CCC (Certified Career Coach), and CPEP (Certified Peaceful Euthanasia Professional), as they discuss how to navigate this conversation. With over 40 years of experience, Rebecca shares her insights on dealing with layoffs, the importance of employee handbooks, and maintaining a compassionate yet professional demeanor during challenging discussions. They also explore the emotional aspects of leadership and provide practical tips for handling tough conversations with empathy and clarity.

Rebecca Rose's impressive career spans nearly four decades, during which she has managed veterinary clinics, collaborated with industry partners, authored articles and books, and facilitated engaging team workshops. Recently appointed to the Colorado State Board of Veterinary Medicine as one of the first RVT Members, Rebecca's enthusiasm for professional development is contagious. She is dedicated to supporting veterinary teams in reaching their highest potential and believes in building a healthy, sustainable career in veterinary medicine through memorable storytelling and interactive courses.

Rebecca's extensive experience and dedication make her the perfect guest for this episode, offering valuable advice on handling difficult conversations and supporting veterinary teams with empathy and professionalism. Let's get into this episode…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Episode Transcript

Andy Roark: Hey everybody. I am Dr. Andy Roark, and this is the Uncharted veterinary Podcast guys. I'm not on this podcast episode today. It is my friend, Stephanie Goss and Rebecca Rose. They are doing a communication, uh, podcasts. I was gonna say a communication breakdown, but like they're breaking down communication, not they're having a communication breakdown. So the question the mailbag today is about, unfortunately, laying someone off, we have a practice that is overstaffed and they have to let someone go the person they are going to lay off has some financial problems is not going to be super easy for them. 

And so there are, there's some difficulties and then obviously there's emotions about having to let someone go, especially because, you know, we're, we're not the practice isn't profitable as opposed to there's some sort of a performance problem or things like that. And so anyway, there's a lot of emotions mixed up in this. 

We Rebecca and Stephanie get down nicely into how to have these conversations and how to set them up and how to execute them really well. And so, anyway, that's what this episode is all about. Let's get into it.

Stephanie Goss:  And we are back. It's me, Stephanie Goss, and this week I am joined by a very special guest. I have the pleasure of being joined today by Rebecca Rose, who is an RVT. Let me see if I get all your initials right. You are an RVT. You are a CCC, which is a Certified Career Coach, a CPEP, which is a certified professional euthanasia professional.

No, certified peaceful euthanasia professional. It's too, too many letters. Is that all the letters, Rebecca, or do you have more

Rebecca Rose: That, that's enough. You know, after being in the community for over 37 years, we can just say that I've graduated from the College of Hard Knocks, and I have a certificate in probably Hard Knocks.

Stephanie Goss: So I am super excited to have you on the podcast today. So you and I have known each other. We were just talking about this because you were a founding member of Uncharted. You came to our very first conference back in 2017 when Uncharted was just an Andy Roark and team dream brought to life.

And I had heard you speak prior to that, but I think that was the first time that we actually met. And I'm super excited because you have had quite the career and I'll let you introduce yourself so I don't screw up any of your bio details, but you are back doing Some speaking work and you are actually gonna be with us for our Get Shit Done conference in October virtually which I'm super excited about because I think it is coming full circle to have you back. So tell us tell everybody who's listening a little bit about yourself

Rebecca Rose: Stephanie, well, thanks for having me and the entire Uncharted team having me back, even in that capacity of speaking. Oh, it's where I find my greatest joy is connecting with team members, all team members and helping them that see that light go on, especially in the hard soft skills.

So that's where I kind of really thrive. But back to my career, yeah, it's been pretty long and diverse in that. I've been a registered or a credentialed veterinary technician for 37 years. I graduated from Colorado Mountain College in 1987. Y'all can do the math. That's a long time. But very few technicians can say that almost four decades. 

Stephanie Goss: Yeah. That's really, really impressive.

Rebecca Rose: Yeah. And considering our field of veterinary technology is very young, I've been a part of it for a long part of that. So, but in that time I truly have done most everything there is to do. 

Stephanie Goss: That's amazing.

Rebecca Rose: Thank you, Stephanie. 

Stephanie Goss: like, think, just think about the changes that we've had technology wise and medicine wise. I think even just in the last five years since COVID, we've made leaps and bounds as a profession, but, when you step back and think about your career spanning almost four decades, like that has got to be such a really a beautiful thing to look at the changes to medicine that we've had in the last, in the last 37 years.

Rebecca Rose: Oh yeah. It's mind boggling. It's mind blowing. So if I think about me as that younger veterinary technician, that younger professional, I In the mid 1980s and the end of the 1980s. Yeah, so much different. And I have a difficult time saying, you know, I don't want to put on that, that, well, I remember when all the time, but I do, I do. 

Stephanie Goss: I love it.

Rebecca Rose: I worked 13 years in mixed animal practice after graduating, so that, that takes us up to the two thousands, the millennium. And then at that point in time, I started working for the technician association and the medical association in Colorado. And that's when I learned, wow, there were like so many things we can do with our careers and was truly the catalyst for my career choices for veterinary technicians. And this was published by AAHA and then it was updated in 2013. So now it needs to have another one, but who's got the time? I need help with that. 

Stephanie Goss: An update. Yeah.

Rebecca Rose: yeah. So as a veterinary technician, we can work in industry. I have, I've done that. I've worked with. nonprofits. I've worked with low incomes. I've worked, I've coached and consulted with veterinary teams all over the United States. And I have yet to see a ceiling in my career after forty years, I'm going to be staying in it until I'm walking around with a cane and you guys got to push me off of the stage cause I'm no longer relevant for one, but I just love what I do. If you can't tell Stephanie.

Stephanie Goss: I love it so, so much. And I think one of the things that I love about you, the very first time I met you, you just have this infectious, positive energy about you and you're, and I don't mean in the like, hyper golden retriever. I'm just gonna like excite all over you way because I feel like that's not you either. You just have this great calm energy and I think the positivity that you bring to the profession is so so important for technicians, but also paraprofessionals in general to recognize like our careers in practice can be can be very multifaceted.

And just because we decide to make a change or because something doesn't work out or because we decide we're ready to go in a new direction, it doesn't mean that it's the end of your career in vet med. Like you, there is life after private practice. There is life after practice in general. And also sometimes that looks like being in practice again, and sometimes it looks different.

And I just love that there's so many different options and that you have been willing to explore that and work with teams and really all the members of the team in terms of growing those soft skills and know, helping prepare them for the things that we have to do in our job. And that's a little bit about you're going to be joining us in October and you're going to be talking about hard conversations.

And Maria and I were talking about some podcast stuff, and we had a question that came up, in the mailbag that made me think of you because it is truly about having a hard conversation. And so I thought, let's have Rebecca come and let's talk through you know, as people who work in the space of soft skills, communication, hard conversations, the emotions of veterinary medicine, like, let's talk about how to have this conversation.

So we had a practice manager who was like, Hey, you know, we're really busy practice, but I've come to the point budgetarily where I'm overstaffed and I'm going to have to lay someone off. And so it's this person's first time actually having to lay someone off. So they're struggling with the emotions of that in general.

And when they step back and looked at the team, there is one person on the team who is the least fitting person in terms of skill and culture. And so they made the decision that is the person that makes the most sense to be laid off. However it's the right reasons for the practice, but it's also the person on a personal level that this is going to hit the hardest.

This is someone who has a lot of challenges in their personal life and who is has money challenges that they have been honest about and open about with their team. And so this leader is facing having this hard conversation to not only lay someone off for the first time, but do it for someone on their team who is really struggling in their personal life.

And they know that. And so they are really struggling to know, how do I have the conversation? Do I do something to try and help them get through it? Like, do I give them you know, extra notice and let them work for a few more weeks to try and find a job since I'm not, firing them? I'm just having to lay them off because we're overstaffed.

Do I give them some sort of severance pay? Like, what do I do? And I love the question because they were asking it from such a great perspective of, Hey, I've never done this before. And I want to make sure that I cover my bases legally, that I don't do anything that's gonna, you know, put my butt on the line in terms of setting a precedent that maybe I can't walk back from or doing something inappropriate from an HR perspective, but really the crux of where they were coming from is, hey, I know that this is going to be hard for this person and It's probably going to hit them out of the blue because I'm not firing them.

This is a layoff and what do I do? Especially when I know these things about them on a personal level and I know that they're struggling mental health wise. And so I don't like, I feel torn between what I know is the right thing to do for a business and what I know might not be the right thing on a personal level.

Rebecca Rose: Yes.

Stephanie Goss: And I just thought that this was such a great question because talk about a hard conversation, right? 

Rebecca Rose: Yeah. 

Stephanie Goss: This is probably the ultimate hard conversation. 

Rebecca Rose: Yeah. So you're going to, you're going to have to help me, Stephanie. All right. So help me remember that I've got like three parts to this, right? So there's first let's talk about veterinary practice managers. They don't want to lay people off. It's one of the most difficult things. It just pulls on my heartstrings when we, when you tossed out that question, cause I've got stories about that.

And then how is this laid out in the employee handbook, the legal aspect of it. And then you know, how can we. Move forward and come up with, helping for when the next time this happens and heaven, I mean, holy cow, how many times do we hear right now that there's a team overstaffed?

Stephanie Goss: Right? Well, and that's, that's, I think that's probably part of the emotional, like, from a headspace perspective, that's probably part of the emotional piece for this practice leader because it is, You know, it's certainly something that I think I know I faced in my career, but it's been a long time.

Like most people are really struggling. And we've also seen a slowdown in the industry. There are parts of the country where we have started to see significant recession and significant slowdown. And then we also have parts of the country where it is still absolutely bedlam and they are completely understaffed and underprepared for the volume of work that's coming in the clinic doors.

And so I think there are a lot of leaders out there looking around going, am I the only one who is feeling this? And so to your point, like that's, that's validating the scenery for you that yes, your peers are also going through the same thing that there are, you know, there are definitely challenges and I think, too, just from an emotional perspective, like, recognizing that it's never, it's never easy.

Like, even if we do all the right things, and we work really, really, really hard, sometimes we can't control that. 

Rebecca Rose: So let's, let's talk about that idea too, that it's never the right time. And it's always going to create hardship, even when you've taken the time that someone on your team you've been working with and coaching through, and you've seen some of these challenges that they have, and they're not hidden to that peak performance.

And yet things still aren't, they're not meeting those expectations of work, right? Totally different expectations of work. Very strong, valid, defined versus expectations of another relationship as an example. So we're here in a work relationship, which is very different. And yes, we understand that I mean, there's so many different instances.

I'm thinking back when I've had to hire people and it's like, well, it's Thanksgiving. I can't hire now. We're going into Thanksgiving or fire them rather, or I can't fire them now. They've just had a loss of their family or whatever the reason is. So that's always going to be there. Unfortunately, right? As practice managers, we don't wake up in the morning and go, woo-hoo who do I get to fire today?

That is like the hardest thing we have to do and we lament and we stress and we put it off for as long as we can to the usually the detriment of the rest of the team. Oftentimes I'll walk into a veterinary hospital when I was doing more coaching and consulting and that was a big deal, right? Saying I have one or two members on my team.

They have great skills, but their people skills suck and they just create all of this turmoil and I've been coaching and all of them. I'm like, okay, let's sit down here. Let's get really real. This has not to do with laying off. That's another conversation, which remind me we have to go to those team members, the two in this example, because whatever reason those expectations are not being met and you have coached them through it and yes, it is time to leave and it's time to sever those ties.

I think some of the quotes that I often hear is like. Fire quickly, hire slowly. Good. Those are good things. Good. That's a good quote to live by because what you're doing is when you have those two of maybe a team of 20 or however many big, right? You're disrespecting all the others. And you have to keep that in mind.

Me keeping these other two that are not at meeting these expectations. And I have all these other people that are meeting these expectations. I'm disrespecting them. And when I showed that and put that into perspective for practice managers, they're like, not that I have to always be right. That is a way of looking at it.

So this idea of a layoff is so much different. Still very difficult. So when I, if I were to be sitting with that practice manager right now or that team leader who's going through this, I'd have to ask, alright, I have to lean on, what does your employee handbook say?

Right. Because in your employee handbook,

Stephanie Goss: You're stealing, you're stealing my line, Rebecca.

Rebecca Rose: What does it say? Right. We have to go there first. This helps, helps us to separate a little bit. And she explains those expectations of the work environment that we've created, the culture that we've created. I used to go in and create handbooks for veterinary hospitals all over the United States.

Magnificent tool underutilized. underutilized during onboarding or whatever. But again, we're talking about a layoff.

In your employee handbook, does it discuss a layoff? And at time of onboarding and hiring, does your team, is your team required to read it? Not that they, not that you go through with page by page, they're required to read it generally.

If I'm working with a team and I'm onboarding them, I'm like, okay guys, the two of you just got hired and guess what we're doing this afternoon. We're going through the employee handbook. Woohoo. I'm not going to go through all 10, 26, 34 pages. It doesn't matter. But I, as the practice manager, I am a, as a team lead, I really want you to know and understand these six things.

highly important, crucial parts of our relationship together to include the idea of 

Stephanie Goss: is that, because I, I love, I love this point. Like, everybody who listens to the podcast, I think, knows how much I love, a good handbook and it's so, so critical. And one of the things that we just did this last year in our Uncharted Community was take members, we did a small challenge group and we challenged ourselves to, over the course of the year, work through the handbook from start to finish.

And so we got together regularly, we worked on different sections. When you say, how does it address layoffs, I think that that's one of those sections that, you know, we don't really think about most of us because, you know, it's, it's like, okay, we think about the big things, like, what is our code of conduct?

You know, we have a drug free work policy. We think about things like that that are really the obvious. 

Rebecca Rose: coming back to this idea, what's in the employee handbook? And if it's not in the employee handbook, okay, well, there's an actionable item for next time. When we are updating this employee handbook now, it's going to include that layoff piece.

Stephanie Goss: you know, the, one of the questions that's being asked here is like, okay, This leader selected a team member for layoff based on looking at the whole team, looking at fit, looking at skill, looking at culture, right?

So they really were looking at it from a very well balanced holistic way and made the decision that this is the person that has to go. And when I think about a handbook, I think about it being the thing that helps guide us as leaders and managers so that it helps make the, the unknown for team members less arbitrary, right?

And so where I, where I was thinking you were going to go with it was like, okay, it's, you never know when layoffs are going to happen. And so it's really hard to have, how do you write a policy about that? But the things I would think about are like, how do we decide who gets laid off and who doesn't, like, what does that look like?

So that it isn't just. Well, I woke up today and I decided you're the person who's going to get laid off, right? That it has a sense of, is it, is it longevity of employment? Is it fit and skill assessments? Is it a, you know what, it could look a bunch of different ways. And as always, like we should, I think you and I would both agree.

When you're doing your handbook, have an employment attorney review it, because you need to make sure that it's valid for your state and your local municipalities. And at the same time, it should be that litmus test to let your team know, hey, this is what I can expect from you as my employer.

Rebecca Rose: Absolutely. It is the litmus test. It is that guide for both employees and leadership. It is such a wonderful tool. And that's where I was going to is that is, is in these circumstances for this practice manager, she had to lean on past experiences of here's my team, here's my rock stars. Here's my people that aren't so much rock stars of that.

Who, whom can I choose to let go? God, that's the hardest part? But there was probably something in her background. There could have been documentation comes back that idea of I'm having a conversation with you and I'm documenting it regardless of if there was disciplinary actions or not. But because of these reasons and with a layoff there technically really doesn't have to be because we are at will states.

So, um, it's a tough one at will state. Let's talk about that. Stephanie. So an at will state says that there's no contract here and I can let anybody go without cause

Stephanie Goss: Right,

Rebecca Rose: I'm gonna you know as a

Stephanie Goss: right, at any time,

Rebecca Rose: As a practice manager, if I let somebody go and then they come back to me and want unemployment, well, then I have to prove that right.

But under these instances, I would definitely have to lean on me at will. The only state that's not at will is Montana to my best of knowledge. And I think they were trying to change that, but I don't, I don't know where that's good. 

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, I think, so I think your, I think your point about what does the handbook say is a great a great point, and it's a, it should be where we start, right? Like, what, what expectation, Because I love that you tied it, it's a completely different scenario, right, from the employee who has documented performance problems and you've coached them and you've done the whole, and you're firing them.

That is very different. And the similarities, and I love that you tied it to that because the handbook really allows you to, It allows the employees in your team to know what to expect from you as an employer, and it allows them to say, Hey, even though I may not have known that layoffs were coming, even though this might be catching me completely out of the blue, I still had an expectation set for me at the time of my employment.

Now, to your point. Whether they actually read and absorb that information is a whole other story, right? Like whole other story. but the point is we set that expectation for them. 

Rebecca Rose: I think it's important to make the employee handbook kind of our casual conversation periodically in team meetings. So people are like, Oh yeah, we have that as our guide. We have that as a tool. I Do recall one state that I worked with actually had to have in their employee handbook in bold capital letters.

We are at an employee We are an at will state. And I thought, I thought that was pretty interesting. And in my employee handbooks, when I helped to create them, we did have a acknowledgement receipt that said, you know, we are an at will state and this is what this means. So I would probably under these circumstances, under this layoff have to lean on that.

And then I would go right back to my employee handbook and make sure I get something in there about layoffs.

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Stephanie Goss: I agree with you 100 percent and I think that the hard part right is that for our writer? They're in the thick of it. And so you, you always wish that you could go back sometimes and start over and try harder and do things differently than maybe your past self did. But when you're facing this as a leader, let's talk about this You had, you had two other pieces that you wanted to talk about and I think that they're both super great and, and relevant.

And let's talk about this from a headspace perspective. So for you, Rebecca, like when you're coaching leaders and team members to have hard conversations with people, which of course laying someone off is going to be a hard conversation. What are some of the things that you coach them to, from a headspace emotional, like getting, really getting ready to have this conversation because it's never easy.

Like, even if you are very experienced and a very, you know, tenured or skilled communicator, it's never easy. Like, I, I, I say, You know, I, I have unfortunately fired more than one person in my career and I'm good at hard conversations, but my palms still sweat before I, before I have a hard conversation, you know, I still get nervous.

I still get anxious. So, what are some of the, the coaching tips and tricks that you have for how to approach the hard conversation.

Rebecca Rose: And even right now just going into this, it probably sets me back into some trauma, past trauma experiences doing this because it's so tough. So coaching them. So I would have to help them see that these are the hard facts of why we're doing this and what we're doing with this. But when we are in that present moment and speaking with that team member, we're not in hard facts.

We are going to be open and honest with them. We're going to have, and if I have in my sphere of influence, someone who I've maybe even practiced with, if this is my first or second time that I've done this, because we, we want to do it with an open heart and open mind and in a loving and embracing space, but know that it has to be done. And that's how I would approach it. I would create a space that it was just the two of us, It was quiet. It's not going to be on Monday because everybody for the rest of the week is going to be talking about it. It's going to be probably on a Friday afternoon and I'm going to be totally prepared. I'm going to have gone through my employee handbook.

I would have gone through what is the law within my state that's requiring me at time of dismissal. What does that look like? I'm going to have, if I need, the check that they need. I'm going to have all of the materials that they're going to need. I'm going to have the opportunity for them to be in COBRA

not that we have to have all of that conversation right now, because that's a lot, but I'm going to be prepared for when I do have it. And again, Stephanie, you're pulling from some times that I haven't had or done this conversation in a long time. But you need to be prepared. And the more, the more you're understanding that this is needed for your team, you've detached yourself a little bit from the circumstances because you know, this is going to be difficult for them.

And you can express that. You can say, I know there's not going to be any good time for this. You had mentioned earlier about opportunities. We, Please stay on for three weeks. That's something you have to determine with you and your leadership. If that's a good thing, if that's something that you can allow for, if that's the best interest of them, would they have that opportunity to say, yes, I need to stay on for three weeks or like, Oh, no, good.

I'm over this. I'm I'm done. And you had mentioned to something out about severance pay. Is that an opportunity you have to have all of that figured out and lined out before, and that can take days. That could take days to gather all that information. What did I miss? Yes.

Stephanie Goss: I think you hit on the really, really important pieces, which is, it's never going to be easy. And part of it is creating that safe space and I think for me, the biggest emotional step in preparing for that hard conversation is sometimes just acknowledging both to myself, but to the other person that this is not going to be an easy conversation, you know, because there's, there's going to be emotions and there's going to be it. Challenges on both sides. And it's just like, I, I I'm curious. I'm curious because of your work as a compassionate euthanasia professional and educator. Like, I'm curious for me, it was always, I correlated it in my brain. as that feeling of like, if a client is, very upset in an exam room during euthanasia, even if it's a patient that I cared for too, if I let myself lean into the emotions and, and take their emotions on and amplify my own emotions, it makes it harder for me to really I'm giving them compassion because I'm letting them see the emotions.

And it makes it harder for me to be a compassionate professional in serving their pet to that very last moment. And so for me, that line always was like, try and control my emotions. I, I want to empathize. I want them to understand how much I care about their pet. And I had to, I had to learn how to lock down in the moment,

that empathetic response of taking on their emotions as well and letting my own emotions be heightened so that I could do the work that needed to be done and take care of the pet. And I think about it a lot the same way as a manager. Like I can have feelings and I can, I can care about my team and I can express those emotions.

And I have to do the work to not let my emotions raise, to where they, to, to, to a really heightened point because I don't want to amplify their emotions. And so as someone who is a sympathetic crier, like I had to learn how to, how to control that so that if a team member, if their emotional response was, were tears and there was crying that I didn't take on that and amplify it by starting to cry myself.

And so it sounds, I've had team members tell me like, that sounds really mean. And I think it's just a part of that soft skills work because I can do better work for the team when I can empathize with them. And I can feel that compassion. And I can also still be professional and level headed and provide them with the guidance that they need from a leader.

And so in this case, you know, if I'm sitting down and it is emotional for that person and they do get upset and they start crying and they start talking about the, what am I going to do about money and stuff like that. If I let myself go to the emotional place, I do them a disservice because it takes, it takes me longer to be able to present them with the information that can help support them.

And so I want to be. I want to, I guess, I guess I, the question that I'm getting to is, do you have any tips and tricks for reaching that place of compassion where you can show them that you care about them? And also to your point, give them that information. Like if they're worried about the money to be able to say to them, okay, I understand.

Like I, I know that this was unexpected. I, I understand that money is a concern and here's what I can do to support you. Whether it's the information about accessing insurance benefits through COBRA, like you mentioned, or the severance pay or whatever it is, like being able to lean into that. Do you have tips and tricks that you have gathered through your career that help prepare in that way as a leader for the hard conversation?

Rebecca Rose: I think when you do step into that leadership role, that management role, that's just part of it. But I'm hoping that as you've grown through your career, people have supported you and understanding there has to be a level of detachment. So let's talk about the vulnerability. Yes, I can be vulnerable and open hearted and I can be be here for you. And so definitely during euthanasia, right? Vulnerability and, and compassion during that euthanasia, most definitely. And allowing for that grief and allowing for the support of that grief. That's a big part of who we are and what we do in end of life care. And I want to apply some of that to this letting go of a team member during a layoff, having all of that data, all of that information, and also preparing myself for a no drama, low drama exit, right?

And saying, okay, because there is going to be tears and there's going to be misunderstanding and there's going to be the more than likely, which, Oh my God, again, your heart just breaks. And yet I can't be here for another hour and a half or longer or whatever it's going to take. That's why we're going to do this on a Friday and I'm going to prepare.

And I'm going to also at some point in time, come to the realization that this is it. I need to one, let you go. We're going to talk about this severance. You're going to stay for three weeks or you're not. And at some point in time, you're, you're actually just going to become a broken record in this is what we've chosen and this is what I can do for you now.

And there's going to be rebuttal again, that broken record. This is what we've chosen to do right now. And this is what, how I can help you going, moving forward. Boom, boom, boom, boom, because it's got to come to an end at some point, instead of keeping this dialogue and this circle going, because it's going to be tough.

Oh my gosh. It's so difficult and we can't take this burden on ourselves, right? It's part of being a manager. It's part of being a leader. You're here for the business and you're here for the team. And unfortunately this is part of that tough thing that we have to do. 

Stephanie Goss: I love that. cause it is hard and it's a learning lesson. And , like you said, it's doesn't get any easier. I mean, nobody wants to be the person to have to lay people off or, or fire people. But you know, when you think about it in that euthanasia context, you can provide loving and compassionate end of life care every single day.

And it doesn't make it any easier. You know, you still, you still have that, that emotional piece of it. You learn. You learn the skills, and you learn the coping mechanisms, hopefully that are healthy, to support you you know, mentally and emotionally, and I think it's the same here, and so, I think being able to model that behavior for the team is also one of the best things that you can, can do here, and to your point, I love, I love the idea of Okay, and this is where I tell, you know, manager friends, look, it's okay if you have to write it down, if you have to have notes in front of you.

Like, hard conversations are hard, and nobody says that we have to go into a hard conversation without a script. You don't. That's BS. Like, take a notepad in, have a, have a plan, have an out, have your bullet points written down. Even just on a napkin for yourself, whatever is going to make you feel more comfortable and confident to help support them.

Because at the end of the day, the decision had to be made. You can't change the decision. All you can do is support this person to the best of your ability. And so I think having that plan and to your point about the reiteration, at some point you have to have an off ramp. And so at some point you have to say, Okay, I feel like we're not getting anywhere in this conversation if that's the way it goes if they just keep asking But why me or I don't understand.

I can't do this I you know, I just changed my I just you know I'm going through some mental health challenges or I just changed my medications or I you know My partner just got laid off from their job or whatever it is because the reality is we're human beings and life happens You made this point so early on and I love it so much that life happens every single day.

And hopefully we never take it for granted, but the reality is it happens to us every second of every day. And we can't control that as employers. What we can do is show up and be compassionate, kind human beings and do our best to take care of the people in our, in our care and in our service. And so I think by giving the team member that support and saying, I hear you and I want to support you.

And this is how, this is how we're going to do that. And at some point, if you do that spiral, because I think that's like the little lizard human brain, the caveman brain, if you will, that's just like, but, but, but, you know, like, cause you're trying to come to terms with

it at some point, you have to have that, that exit strategy of,

i, I don't think that there's anything else that I can say that, nothing is going to change where we are. How would you like me to help you move forward? Would you like to, especially like if they're going to, if they're terminated or, you know, if you're laying them off effective immediately, leaning them towards, can I help you gather your things?

I help you, you know, Can I give you some time, do you want to take a walk? 

Rebecca Rose: yeah, wherever we chose to do this and it was time to end this, I would be walking away and escorting towards the door. Cause I, I've done whatever I can at this point in time. And I know that sounds very strange, but it's similar to having a tough conversation even with a client.

It's like, okay, well I'm going to start walking away. Right. I do have a question for you, Stephanie. You know, is this person, a candidate, the person that you're laying off going to get your exit interview and when?

Stephanie Goss: That is a great question. Oh my gosh, I love it so much. I mean, I would say, I would say yes, in that this person is probably the ultimate candidate for your, for your exit interview, right? Because even though they may not have been a cultural fit, or maybe they weren't a skill fit, or maybe they weren't both, and there were reasons why you chose this person.

To be the person that you lay off, they're not being, they're not being fired. Like, yes, their skillset may have come into question or their performance may have come into question as part of your layoff decision making, but they're not being fired. And so asking them the kind of questions that you typically ask on an exit interview, like what could we have done better as an employer?

Because the reality is when you lay someone off, the hope, the idea, the difference. in the idea between laying someone off and terminating employment is when you lay someone off, you have the hope that you might be able to bring them back. It sounds like in this case, the way that they went about making the decision about layoffs also maybe had to do with performance and fit.

And so maybe this isn't someone who would be a candidate for being able to be rehired. However, It can often frame an employee, like they don't have to know that, right? Like that's between you and your, that's between you and whatever you might believe in or not, higher power wise, right? Like that, if that is whatever you as your leadership team have decided, they don't have to know that.

So why not set up the best possible employee experience for them and say, Hey, we care about you. And we want to do the right thing by our team members and so I know that this feels the way that I would probably approach it is to say before I let them go. If I was, if I was laying them off effective immediately, I might say, hey, Today is not the day because everything is really raw and I want to give you time to process and I understand that there might be a grieving process here in the way that this had to end.

And I can't, like I want you to have the time and the space to be able to handle your own, your own feelings. And if you feel up to it, I would like to send you with this exit survey or I'd like to send you with the, you know, by email, however you, however you do it. Because I would love to get your feedback on how we can.

Do better for our team as employers and I've, you know, we respect you, we value you. Obviously, you don't want to say things that are not true, but talk about an opportunity to get feedback from a team member. What about, what about you, Rebecca? How would you approach

Rebecca Rose: Well, one of the top conversations I have when I'm doing the onboarding and I'm going through that employee handbook, one of the things I make sure I hit as we close the last pages of this is that everybody, regardless of the reason for leaving voluntary, involuntary now for this idea of a layoff or it's always been there, but just they always get an exit interview or an exit sheet.

They necessarily wouldn't get it right then and there where we're going to fill it out in front of them. But in two days period of time, you will be receiving this exit interview. You're not obligated to do it, but I would really appreciate that you did it. So I lay the groundwork with my teams that an exit interview will or an exit survey will always be done or given as an opportunity.

Stephanie Goss: I love that. And I, I think the, I think following your example of the exit interview, I think the last, the place where I would leave us is in that setting the expectation of what they can expect. And so I think about you know, Brené Brown and, and clear, clear is kind, right? And the idea that if this employee is not going to be eligible for rehire, should things change, don't tell them that you will reach out to them if things change, because otherwise you're just setting them up for failed expectations and you're getting their hopes up.

And that's not, that's not fair. That's not kind, right? So I think if you know that you're not going to rehire this employee, again, you can frame it as, you know, we are not going to be looking for a replacement for this position at any time in the immediate future. And I wish you the best of luck, the best of luck with your future, you know employment endeavors,

but if they someone who has the potential to come back.

Rebecca Rose: or let them know that you'll be, you'll be up for referencing. You know, if, if under those other circumstances, I'm happy to give a reference. That could be one of those. Ending the conversation. Bringing it down to the end. 

Stephanie Goss: I love that you said that so much because that I will say I share that with when I you know when you and I both you know speak and and lecture and one of the things that I share with colleagues is look the reality is, there is a right fit for everyone, clients and team members.

And just because someone wasn't a fit at my hospital, doesn't mean that they won't be a fit for someone else's hospital. And so I always, unless I'm terminating someone for cause, and I, you know, absolutely would not be a reference for them, because there's some sort of reason that I could find that no employer should employ them,

in the future. And those reasons are, for me, are very, very slim. And that's a whole other, that's a whole other episode. But if I'm, I would absolutely say, you know, yeah, put me, put me down as a, as a reference, because the reality is even a team member who doesn't fit for me, there could be a practice out there that would be a right fit for them.

And so part of what I choose to do is think positively as a leader. And when I get that employment reference, I ask that person, questions about, tell me about your practice, like tell me about your environment because I don't want to answer your question about their works, their skill set or their, you know, can they handle fast pace?

I want to know more about what that kind of means before I answer that question, because maybe that didn't work in my hospital, but it might work in yours, and so I think being able to set them up for success in that way is really, really important. And again, We don't want to promise, falsely promise things to the team even when they're leaving, but I love, love, love that idea of how do I give them an exit interview and have them help us, but then also what can I do to help them moving forward, and so,

I think you mentioned the idea of, or we, we talked briefly earlier about the idea of, look, just because you do things one time does not mean that you're setting a precedent. And so I think to your point earlier, if you don't have something in your handbook about a layoff policy, and a recall policy.

Now's the time, right? So moving forward, that's the box. Rebecca says, please go check that box when you're done listening to this episode, right? But also, I think it's really a good opportunity to say, hey, I don't have a policy. And so What can I do in the moment to take care of this human being who is a part of my practice? And that's going to look different for everybody. And there's no judgment. If you can't afford to give them a severance, you can't afford to give them a severance.

If they are, you know, if they are struggling to show up to, to work, and that's part of why you made the decision to lay them off, you you may not want them to stay in your employee for another three weeks. There's no judgment there. Like you do what you need to do for the, for the business. And just because you do something one time before you had a policy, doesn't mean that that becomes the policy, right?

You can say, Hey, I'm going to make the decision right now in the moment and moving forward because we didn't have a policy. This is how we're going to handle this in the future.

Thank you so much, Rebecca, for having this conversation with me today. This was this was a lot of fun. And I think we, I think we hit on some really solid high points. Tell tell the listeners, because I'm sure that they are like, Rebecca is amazing. Just like I said at the very beginning.

Now, after listening to you where can they, so first of all, where can people find you online or find out what you're, what you're up to? Are you on social media? Are you on LinkedIn? What does that look like for you?

Rebecca Rose: I'm very social, I'm social at parties, I'm social at conferences, I'm social on the internet. So yes, they can find me on Facebook, Rebecca Rose. I'm also on LinkedIn and everyone is invited to my veterinary teams living well, which is a closed Facebook group. And this is, these are the kinds of conversations that we have in there as well.

Stephanie Goss: I will drop the links. to those contact points for you and to the group into the show notes for everybody. And then you are going to be speaking at our Get Shit Done conference, which is coming up and happening. And I will put the links. to that as well in the show notes, but that is happening October 23rd.

And that one is virtual. So if you have been looking for an opportunity and I know everybody Zoom fatigue is real at this point. And we, I think do a great job of making it feel fun. And engaging and it's super interactive. It's not like you're going to get online and listen to someone lecture. And I am super excited to hear your session Rebecca, for that, which is communication skills and tough conversations.

Rebecca Rose: And, and the tools for success. Cause I'm always about the tools.

Stephanie Goss: I love it so much. So if you were like, I would love more of this, come and hang out with us in October. thank you so much for being here, Rebecca and have a great rest of your week listeners. And we will talk to you guys all again soon.

Rebecca Rose: Thanks for having me. Bye bye.

Andy Roark: And that's a wrap on another episode of the Uncharted Podcast, guys. Thanks so much to Rebecca Rose for being here with Stephanie Goss. Gang. I hope you guys enjoyed it and got a lot out of it. If you did as always, please take a moment to leave us an honest review wherever you get your podcasts. It means a world to me and Stephanie and it helps people find us and, you know, we just wanna help practices. 

And I dunno, it's just the best way to get the word out. So anyway, guys, thanks for being here. Take care of yourselves. We'll talk to you later.