Podcast

What's This Episode About?

This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are tackling a mailbag letter from a technician who is looking around at our field and wondering – How do we compete with other industries? In a time where more and more employees are looking for flexibility in their schedules, in their work environments, in their benefits, and in their roles within companies, how does veterinary medicine redefine ourselves and shake up the status quo in a way that allows us to remain competitive and adaptable to change? Andy and Stephanie both agree that the possibilities seem endless and that the conversation must start with an open mind and a flexible headspace. Let’s get into this…

You can listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

Upcoming Events

April 21-23: The Uncharted Veterinary Conference, LIVE in Greenville, SC

The Uncharted Conference in April is our flagship event. In celebration of 5 years serving the veterinary profession, we have shifted the focus of this conference inward. You’re not looking to grow your business outwardly – you’re looking for ways to build resiliency and reignite your love for your career. During this 3-day adventure in beautiful Greenville, South Carolina, you’ll be discussing topics like hiring for culture, creating the story that becomes your path, and building smoother, more simple ways to practice. This event is open to members only. Registration for this conference closes on April 1, 2022. DO NOT MISS OUT – Snag your spot today.

---

Episode Transcript

This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.

Stephanie Goss:

Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are tackling a topic that we got through the mailbag, and we had a technician writing to us asking a very good question that Andy and I would love to talk about as we head into 2022. And that is, is there a way for veterinary medicine to have flexibility that other industries seem to enjoy? And this technician was asking the question in the context of how do we create opportunities for flexibility, whether it's with the schedule, whether it's work location, whether it's hours worked in a week, whether it's tasks being done? How do we create flexibility in all of the jobs that happen in a traditional veterinary practice, so that we can compete with other industries?

Stephanie Goss:

And I think this is a great question and Andy does too. I'm really looking forward to diving into this one with him and hearing you guys' thoughts on this episode, because we can think of a bunch of different ways that we can be creative and flexible, but it all starts with getting in the right headspace, so let's get into this.

Speaker 3:

And now the Uncharted podcast.

Andy Roark:

And we are back it's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie it's five o'clock somewhere Goss.

Stephanie Goss:

I do like that. How's it going, Andy?

Andy Roark:

It's good. It is good. It is good. I can see 2022 from where we're recording-

Stephanie Goss:

Secretly.

Andy Roark:

And yeah, it's exciting times.

Stephanie Goss:

It's so crazy. This year has just in so many ways has seemed like it's 10 million years long, but also it's flown by. And it's crazy to think that we're almost to January and the new year, and you and I are going to be doing some traveling next month and it's crazy.

Andy Roark:

Yeah.

Stephanie Goss:

It's crazy.

Andy Roark:

We're going to Orlando for the VMX program. Hey, yeah, if you're there and you see us come say hi.

Stephanie Goss:

Yeah, heck yeah.

Andy Roark:

Steph and I love to meet people who like the podcast so come up and say hi. If you say you like the podcast, we'll be friends immediately. I'll immediately go, “Oh, thank you.” And like-

Stephanie Goss:

I will giggle awkwardly.

Andy Roark:

I'll melt in your hands. Stephanie will giggle, and my head will expand pushing people off the escalator.

Stephanie Goss:

I will giggle awkwardly and turn tomato red.

Andy Roark:

Yeah, not to be missed. All right. So, yeah, that's the plan. You and me going to Orlando next year or next year. Yeah, next year.

Stephanie Goss:

Right? True.

Andy Roark:

This is also next week.

Stephanie Goss:

I know. It's crazy. We have a good one that I think is a good topic to kick off the new year with actually, because it's a question that I know a lot of my peers as managers are wrestling with. And we got a question in the mail bag and it was from someone who was asking about schedule flexibility, and they said, “I think we know that schedule flexibility has been a hot topic as a result of our post-COVID world, and although it is easier to use work from home or work whenever you want, just get your job done schedules in other industries, as a service-based industry like veterinary medicine, this seems impossible to me.” And so this person was saying, “I think that I could see a front office maybe being able to work from home if they had a VPN set up, and a cloud-based practice management software. I could see where a doctor could take telemed appointments from home, but the core work of our patient care team, technicians, veterinary assistants, they can't really do their job from home. Can they?” Is what this person was asking.

Andy Roark:

Right.

Stephanie Goss:

They were saying, “We can't do patient care from our homes, we can't trim nails, we can't talk to clients in the exam room, we can't do bandaging wounds, we can't do the patient care fundamentals from home.” And so they were saying in their practice, the best thing that they have come up with so far is to overstaff so that the team can take days off whenever they need to, including those days when they have to call in the morning of because they're sick or they just need a day off. And so they were saying this doesn't though feel like a long term solution, “And so as a leader in my practice, I am wondering what do you and Andy think? Is there a way for veterinary medicine to have the flexibility that other industries seem to enjoy in terms of working from outside of our clinics?”

Andy Roark:

Yeah. So this is a super good question. Yeah, so let's go ahead and start at a high level. So let's start with some headspace. It's very easy when we start talking about schedules to get myopic really fast. And there's a lot of really important caveats in this question, I really loved the way they laid it. They're not like, “In a dream world…” They're like, “No, when patients come into building, how do we… We don't work from home when they're coming into the building.” But I still think it's important to start with a open mind and a very broad perspective, because if not doing that, it's very limiting. So, let me give you an example, I was reading recently about Blockbuster Video, which I remember as a kid, right? I get nostalgic for… You know what I mean? The blue building with the yellow signs.

Stephanie Goss:

Yes.

Andy Roark:

And every Friday, the place was just packed, right? And so it's absolutely packed. And the biggest frustration that customers at Blockbuster Video in the year 1995 had was that they would go on Friday afternoon to get a movie and rent it for the weekend, and the new releases are sold out, they're gone. And you've got… that was the most frustrating thing, right? They still had the box, but you didn't need the box, you needed the white paper copy of the box that went behind the box, because that's what showed they actually had the thing. So anyway, so Blockbuster Video is looking at their business model and the biggest pushback they get is their target customer, who is the soccer mom who's doing a bunch of things and grabbing a movie for the family on the way home. That's not for me, that's for blockbuster, how they describe it, but the soccer mom was their target-

Stephanie Goss:

Sure.

Andy Roark:

… demographic. The biggest frustration they had is that their kids have looked forward all week to the new release that they have been told is coming out, and they have signs up saying, “On May 30th, this movie will be here.” And then they get there and Finding Nemo is not there and there's tears and they don't want to watch something else and so that was the biggest problem they had. And so the adjustment that Blockbuster made was that they steadily decreased the number of older videos they had in their store so that they could increase shelf space for new releases. And so they shifted from being a store that said, “We have all the things,” to more and more, “We have new releases and we have 80 copies of finding Nemo.”

Andy Roark:

And they even did the guarantee of, “We guarantee we'll have a copy of this when you come in.” I don't know if you remember that, but it was guaranteed or it's free. It's something, “If you come in and we don't have it, we'll give you coupon, you'll have it for free.” That's what's called an incremental adaptation. They took their business model and they looked at it and they said, “Man, these people come in and they want these new releases, and so we're going to shift what we're doing within the framework of what we do to try to address this need.” Now at the same time Netflix is getting started and they have every video out there, and there's no late fees and they'll send them to your house, and this was game breaking. Not only do we not only do we have all the old stuff, we also have the new stuff and no late fees.

Andy Roark:

And they just completely changed the way that people get movies in their house, and now they pioneered streaming and just completely changed the way they did it again. That's transformational adaptation, it is. We're just radically, wildly differently. I bring those things up because one, I get nostalgic for Blockbuster and Netflix, but two, there's nothing wrong with incremental adaptation, right? It's good business. Most of the time and we're talking about technology… Most of the time incremental adaptation is how we move forward. We look at what works and we try to do it better. We look at what our clients like, and we try to serve them better, that's fine. Sometimes it is really good to look, not adaptation or at incremental adaptation, but at transformational and be like, “Let's just put us side are preconceived notions and reimagine the problem.”

Andy Roark:

And I go through all of that stuff to say that when we're talking about scheduling and what will be possible in the future, transformational adaptation is a good place to start and think. I think it's dangerous to say, “Here's our appointment scheduler. How would you do this differently?” I'm like, “Man, by the time you're looking at your appointment schedule, you're already too far down the rabbit hole to really visualize what is truly possible.” I think the letter writer is right on, we're looking at a lot of things right now and people want to work for home. I was talking to one of my friends that works at one of the large corporate vet groups and they were at the main corporate office, and I said, “What's it like now?” The pandemic, it was winding down at the time. I was like, “What is it? What is it like there?” And they're like, “Oh, it's a ghost town here.” And I said, “Are you guys going to have people come back to the office?” And she laughed, and she was like, “Oh no. No one wants to come back.”

Andy Roark:

And so, as a result, they're still largely working from home, and then they have optional days that people could come in. I said, “Well, that seems good.” And they were like, “It's not good because you come in and no one else is here, so you might as well have stayed home because the people you came to see, they're not here, and so it's not working.” The idea that people would just not come to work and that they would work from home, and that there might be some optional days that people could like… That's so revolutionary and we just didn't even think that that was possible.

Andy Roark:

But now the problem for the corporation, they've got this massive building in an urban area and they're like, “What the heck are we paying for this thing for?” And so, there's opportunity for radical change. We look at pet hospice, like Lap of Love, and those guys, love those guys, I'm such a big fan. Their business model is amazing, which is, “Hey vets, you will do hospice care and you'll set your own schedule, and you let us know when people can book you, and then they're going to book you then, and then you're going to go and you're going to do these things.” Dr. Sarah Boston, up in Canada was talking to me recently about a teleconsult business. She's an oncosurgeon and you can use a vet and talk to Dr. Boston and she'll look at your case, and try to help walk you through how to approach it. And that type of access and availability, and she sets that schedule, that's amazing.

Andy Roark:

Anyway, I've got another friend who just went back for a nontraditional radiology residency, and she's going to be reading radiographs from home, and all of these things are real. You and I are big fans of Guardian Vets that have after hours call service, where clients call into your clinic and a registered vet tech at Guardian Vets picks up the phone, and asks them, “What's going on?” And tells them if they need to go to the emergency clinic or book someone an appointment at your clinic for the next day. There's virtual CSRs, “Hey, your front desk is overwhelmed.” You can flip a switch and now someone offsite will start picking up the phones and helping out the front desk. All of these things are… they're real, they're not pie in the sky, they might happen one day.

Andy Roark:

Clinics that we work with in Uncharted, they're doing these things. And so why wouldn't we start to think about what might be possible from schedules, right? Why wouldn't we start to think about what is the sacred cow, that we have had forever that you go, “Oh, you can't do it differently. It has to be this way.” I don't know it has to be that way anymore. And so I think that just starting with this with a very open mindset and saying, “What is possible?” I think that, that's an exciting way to look at schedule.

Andy Roark:

And I do think that as we look at burnout and we look at what employees want. The reason this question is coming up is because in other industries, people are loving working from home and they don't want to go back to the clinic. And we're seeing research on burnout that says, “If somebody gets to work from home for a day, it can have a massively positive impact on their mental health if one day, a week, they just work from home. And they're in their own place and they get this downtime and then they come back in and they're happier in the office.” It's like all those things are real and we should be looking at them, and so I'm glad that people are starting to do so.

Stephanie Goss:

I think part of the headspace piece too, besides the fact that I think this question comes from a place of discomfort for a lot of us, because veterinary medicine is very slow to adapt to change. We are creatures of habit, and if COVID hadn't forced us to make so much radical transformational change over the last two years, I don't think either one of us could have looked at a crystal ball and predicted that we would have practices who would be doing digital credit card transactions, for example, that's a small thing, but it's something that we wouldn't have. So the vast majority would not have even considered pre-COVID because… Or texting with our clients as the primary communication source, we wouldn't have considered that pre-COVID, that truly has been transformational.

Stephanie Goss:

And at the same time, we don't like change, it's scary, and so I think for a vast majority of our profession, this question comes from a place of discomfort because it is scary. It's scary to think about that much transformational change continuing to happen. And I think that a lot of us have spent the last two years looking down the road, thinking at some point, “This has to level out. At some point, this has to go back to normal.” And I think there still are a lot of people in the veterinary industry and industries, this is not unique to veterinary medicine, who are still sitting and wondering, “When does this go back to normal?”

Stephanie Goss:

And so I think that part of it for me from a headspace perspective is we have to accept the fact that it's uncomfortable, and I think your point about starting from a place of transformational vision is really important. And I had this, I had the same thoughts when I was thinking about answering this question. We are a service industry and our job exists in the clinic, however, I will tell you that over the last five years of getting to know people across veterinary medicine, my eyes have been opened to possibilities for the definition of service industry and for the definition of clinic or practice in ways that I never thought I would have comprehended. And so I would challenge everybody, yes, we are a service industry and yes, our fundamental patient care role does exist in practice. But when you're sitting at the beginning of thinking about this question, I would challenge you to think about what truly is the definition of client service and what truly is the definition of practice for you, because there are a million different options.

Stephanie Goss:

You mentioned several of them. We've got mobile practices, we've got end-of-life and hospice care practices that happen in people's homes and that is where the practice happens, right? We've got mobile nursing services where licensed technicians go out and provide patient care in people's homes. There are things that alter on a fundamental level, the definition of being a service industry and our work occurring in the practice. And so I would echo you in saying that when you're thinking about this question, I think this writer very much pigeonholed themselves in a way that I totally understand, because at the beginning of the pandemic, I did it too. I saw things like, “Well, I could have a CSR answer the phones from home, and I could have a doctor do follow ups and telemedicine from home,” right?

Stephanie Goss:

But those were the only two things that I could really see as being ways for the team to work outside of the building. Because I really thought the same way this writer did, which was we are in a service industry and our patient care work takes place in the practice, and you have to have a brick and mortar of some kind or a mobile setup of some kind to be able to provide those services. And I would challenge all of us to really question that, because my belief has shifted. It started shifting before COVID and it certainly has shifted dramatically since COVID, and I think the possibilities are really endless.

Andy Roark:

Yeah. I feel like the… So I want to jump back to one of your earlier points for a second about what does it mean to be in vet practice? The question that I like to ask people right now is, “Are you in the veterinary medicine business, or are you in the pet health business?” Because they're very different. And if you say, “I am just in the vet medicine business,” it's okay, that's fine, but recognize that that is a choice and that's different from being in the pet health business. And I bring that up and I ask that question because there are so many options right now. A lot of people will ask me like, “Well, where do you think the industry is going? Or where do you think practice is going? Or what is the future of practice?”

Andy Roark:

And I think that, that's a really interesting question. And I think when people ask that the analogy in my mind is I remember being a kid, and we had three channels that the TV got, and that you watched those three channels. There were CBS, NBC, and PBS or whatever.

Stephanie Goss:

And you had to get up and flip the dial.

Andy Roark:

Yeah. You had to get up to flip the dial, that's it [inaudible 00:18:57] myself, that's what it was. I was like, “Man, what is this?” And then, cable TV came along and it was more, but it was still the same. It was still like, oh, you watched these things, there's advertisements on them, and that's how it's provided and that's what the thing is. And that's just how it was done, that's what entertainment was. Was TV, possibly movie theater.

Andy Roark:

And I feel like that's the history of vet medicine is like, this is what vet medicine is. Well, now all of a sudden we've had this explosion and I don't have cable and I haven't had cable for you years. I have Netflix and Disney Plus, which are totally different than the… And they don't have advertisements on them. And I watch YouTube, which is just a complete hodgepodge of all kinds of things, and then there's TikTok and there's Instagram stories and all of these are videos, but they are not NBC, CBS and PBS. They are so radically different, and also, there's an endless amount of them. Just entertainment has shattered and fractured, and now you can grab onto weird YouTube channels and just watch thousands of hours of this niche, weird content.

Andy Roark:

The options for entertainment today are endless. I think that, that's what happens in vet medicine, right? I think the pandemic shatters the ball in a lot of ways, and now I don't think that there is a future of vet medicine. I think the future of vet medicine is this fractured wildly divergent series of paths that everybody is able to go on. I look at our profession and where it's going, and I promise it's coming back to the schedule, but you have got the rise of house call vets.

Andy Roark:

There's a lot of people who want to control their own schedule and it's just them or them and they have one technician who is their only employee, and together Batman and Robin, ride out to the house and they do the thing. And then I already mentioned pet hospice, like Lap of Love is a great example, but, “Hey, I'm going to set this time. I'm going to go to people's houses. I'm going to provide this high cost, high value service, and I'm going to give it a lot of time when I go and that's going to be my business model, and I'm going to control this schedule.”

Andy Roark:

And then you've got a VEG Veterinary Emergency Group is one of the examples. Adobe Animal Hospital in California is another one that are open practices where pet owners can go wherever they want inside of the building. And you go, “What?” And like, yes, they can… they are not separated from their pet, they get to go wherever they want. And that's how these very successful practices are running. And people go, “That's so different from what we've done.” There's telemedicine, there's going to be a lot of vets, they already are but there's going to be a lot more vets that are just doing consults to pet owners from their house.

Andy Roark:

And they're going to do… And pet owners want it, and entrepreneurs are figuring out how to pay for it and how to make it an attractive, viable financial model for vets. And so all of these things, I can just keep going and going, going, and there's not a right answer. We looked at practices, working in Uncharted as the pandemic came on and people were having out outages, labor shortages, people getting sick, people were just getting burned out, and we had practices that just decided they were going to be closed on Wednesday. And you're like, “You can't just close on Wednesday.” Yeah, they did. They just said, “In order to have flexible schedule, we're just going to close on Wednesdays.” We had other practices that decided, “I've always hated to work on Saturdays and I've got more business than I can do, and we're a profitable practice. I'm not going to be open on Saturday.” And what happened to them? Do you know what happened to those poor, poor, sad, sad souls? Nothing. Yeah, they do the financial hit-

Stephanie Goss:

You know what happened to them?

Andy Roark:

… but that was fine.

Stephanie Goss:

Their team got really excited because they didn't have to work Saturdays anymore, and their clients adjusted and their clients still come in Monday through Friday.

Andy Roark:

Yeah, exactly. And don't get me wrong. Let's not rosy coat this, right? There's a financial trade off like Saturday is convenient, I'm sure there's people who go to other practices because they're not there on Saturdays. All that stuff is true, but it was not the catastrophic thing of, “You have to be open as much as everybody else is open or else you are going to have this horrible backlash.” That's not true. And so in all of these things, when we're talking about the scheduling was possible, it's fractured, everybody's going different ways and there's not going to be one way that vet clinics work. And it's a beautiful thing, it's a scary thing though, right?

Stephanie Goss:

Yes.

Andy Roark:

Please tell me how to run my practice, please just tell me and then I'll just do it, and then that will be that, but we want that there's a security in that. But at the same time, the freedom to do what you want to do is, it's wonderful, but it's scary, but it's wonderful. And so we are in this wonderful wild west time. And so can you have people work from home? Yeah. You and I talk about that a lot. We're at the practice managers summit that we did last year, we talked a lot about, “I think that there is a very good case and it depends on the practice. It depends on how you work, and where you work, and where you are, what stage of life your business is in, and how developed it is, and how trained people are, and all those things that said practice manager working from home one day a week, doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.” I think that you can make a very good case for a lot of good things.

Andy Roark:

And one of the things that I would say too is practice managers, if they are not in the vet clinic, they would work on the vet clinic a heck of a lot more than they do. How many practice managers do you know go into the vet clinic and spend 85% of their time putting out fires and chasing laser pointers, because people know that they're there and it's [inaudible 00:24:42] thing versus if they went home and were shut off for the day, they could actually do things that mattered. And boy, that business would benefit.

Andy Roark:

And so I think there's a good case for your regular practice manager working from home for a day. And granted, again, every practice is different, it's not a do-it-this-way or no way. As I said, it's all fractured, but I think that stuff is true and real. I think virtual CSRs, I think they make a ton of sense, and I think that, that's a feasible thing that you can do is cycle the front desk, so that all the front desk people get to work from home one day a week. And they're answering phones, but they're working from home and then you cycle through. There's so many op opportunities and so many options. I just think that that stuff is super important to put down and get in that headspace before we start talking about, “What are your options, right? Knowing it's a service business, what do you got to do?”

Stephanie Goss:

Yeah. I think that that dreaming piece is really important and I think it's also the most scary, because I think for a lot of us, we don't know what we don't know. And so for most of us, those of us who have been in veterinary medicine for a while, or who have been in our particular mode of veterinary medicine for a while, whether it's GP or specialty or whatever, you know what you know. And so it is scary to think about how do I take this model that I know and think about it from a transformational way? And so I think acknowledging that fear and anxiety that could surround that is step number one in the headspace perspective. And to your point, Andy, I think we have to look at it in a very transformational and visionary way. We have to break it open and think about, “How do we redefine these ideas that we have had as an industry, and how do we find our own place within the fractures as you called it?” Because, I think that's the very true point.

Stephanie Goss:

And it's interesting, because I went to lunch recently with some friends who are our practice owners and it's a husband and wife team, and he's a manager and she's a veterinarian. And we were talking about finding veterinarians for their practice. And we were talking about the fact that more and more associate veterinarians are leaving traditional practice and becoming locum or relief vets because to your point, they want to be able to control their schedule. They want to be able to run their life without the commitment that being a practice owner has, because that comes with different chains and shackles along the way, when you're a practice owner. And so I think it was interesting because we were having the conversation, one of them asked me, they said, “Well, surely we can't… It's unsustainable as an industry to think about all of our veterinarians becoming relief vets. That isn't something that we can continue to support.”

Stephanie Goss:

And when we were having the original conversation, my brain agreed with that because I was like, “Yeah, logically, that makes sense. If every veterinarian becomes a relief veterinarian, then who is going to staff our practices? And I found myself agreeing and the conversation went on, but that stuck with me, and I have been thinking about it ever since we had lunch. And what I realized is that I actually didn't agree with it at all, because I truly believe for that…

Stephanie Goss:

And this brings me to my second point about headspace, that we can be whatever we want and we can do whatever we want. There are consequences to every choice that we make as individuals and as practice, and when we use the word consequence, most often people think about it in a negative context, right? But the true definition of consequence is just the outcome of our choices. It can be good and it can be bad, and so as a practice, I can choose to redefine what my practice looks like, the same way a veterinarian can say, “I want to be a relief vet because these are the things that it offers me.”

Stephanie Goss:

And sometimes those relief vets find those things that they're looking for within the context of one or two regular practices. And maybe they went out with the intention to truly be a relief vet, but then they find a practice or two that suits them, and they essentially become a part-time associate at both practices because that gives them… their needs are being met. And so, the more and more I thought about this, the more I was thinking about the fact that you say this all the time, this is truly a case I think for this writer and for anybody else, who's considering this question of where we have to pick our poison.

Stephanie Goss:

And so I would say, when my friend asked me that question, my mind went to, “Well, of course, if all the vets leave our practice, then we can't serve our clients, and who would we staff six days a week at the hospital with?” Well, who says we have to be open six days a week? Who says we have to be open 07:00 to 06:00? Who says we have to be open evenings, two days a week? All of those questions, the more I thought about it, the more I realized we were taking things that had maybe been normal for a lot of us in our positions of leadership within the industry, and are taking that for granted that it has to stay that way forever.

Stephanie Goss:

And so for me, the second piece of headspace really is, “Look, we can be and do whatever we want.” Really truly, the possibilities are endless for us as a individual practice, within the scope of our field, and for our field as a whole, there are consequences to all of those choices. Some are going to be good and some are possibly going to be not so good. And so this is where we really have to think about picking our poison, and when I thought about it in the context of this writer's question, I initially was like, “No.” I initially thought, “Yes, technicians can do other jobs, but they can't truly be a technician if they're not in the practice.”

Stephanie Goss:

But the more I thought about it, I don't think that's true. That is my brain falling into the trap of, I know what I know, right? And when I think about a general day practice, which is what I have run my whole career, I couldn't run a practice from 08:00 to 06:00 without technicians in the building. But that doesn't mean that there don't exist opportunities for technicians to provide patient care in hospitals in endless ways that are not an 08:00 to 06:00, Monday through Saturday general practice, right?

Stephanie Goss:

So, I think this is really a headspace thing for me in terms of really sitting back and thinking globally, to your point about, “We can do anything we want, we can be whoever we want to be.” And we should let ourselves dream a little bit because if we don't, we only know what we know. And to your point, it's really hard to look at the schedule and think, “Well, how do I change this, right?”

Andy Roark:

Yes. That's a mental-

Stephanie Goss:

This is my existing world.

Andy Roark:

That's a mental challenge most of us are not up to. Once you go that far down the path, you're locking in assumptions, right? Because on the schedule you're looking at, those assumptions are rock solid. We need get back out of it. Hey, let's take a break here, and we'll come back and let's start talking about what levers we can actually pull, and what techniques and possibilities are actually out there.

Stephanie Goss:

That sounds good.

Stephanie Goss:

Hey, everybody, it's Stephanie, I just have to break in here for one second and make sure that you know about an awesome opportunity that is coming up that we do not want you to miss. We are back. We are back in person in April in Greenville. That's right. Our flagship conference in Greenville, South Carolina is happening in person for the first time in three years. And we are so, so excited to be back with you guys. It is happening April 21st to the 23rd, so put that on your calendar now. And if you head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/april, you can find all of the details as we sort them out. You will get to see the schedule as soon as we have it, you will get to see information on the speakers, we've got an event FAQ, you can shop our Uncharted gear. We've got safety information if you're wondering being back in person.

Stephanie Goss:

So if this sounds like something you would be interested in, head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/april and reserve your spots. This event will sell out. We cannot wait to see you, so don't wait to put this on your calendar. You do have to be an Uncharted member to attend. You can find out all the details at the website. We'll see you soon. Now, back to the podcast.

Andy Roark:

All right, let's go ahead. Let's just go ahead and start to put some of the options on the table. So, getting back to our original question of, “Hey, we are a brick and mortar practice.” And so let's put the things down that are not assumptions, they're real. “We are a brick and mortar practice and clients are coming to our building and bringing their pets with them. How do we provide schedule flexibility for our staff?” And so let's just go ahead right now and start to talk about some of the options that we've seen or that we see out there. And some of the things that we could at least start to consider.

Stephanie Goss:

Yes. And I would say for me, it starts one step further back, which is the question that was getting asked here is, is there a way for vet med to have the flexibility that other industries enjoy? And for me, I think part of it is looking at why other industries are doing what they're doing. I think the problems that other industries are having are very much similar to the problems we're having in veterinary medicine, in the sense that, to use your story about the veterinary medicine example, where they stopped going into their office, right? And now they're like, “We don't want to go back to being in the office.” I think that's happening in other industries. And so the why, the flexibility is being created in those other industries isn't because they're not service industries, and because work doesn't have to get done in certain places. But because I think, a lot of businesses are looking at it from a place of, “I want to retain people.” For a lot of them, it's about, “I want to retain good people. So how can I be flexible?”

Stephanie Goss:

And I think that's part of the mental challenge for us is that we think so inflexibly in veterinary medicine. And so when I think about that question, how do we create flexibility? Is there a way for us to create flexibility? I would say yes, because I would say, if you look back to the beginning of the pandemic, and you asked law offices, “Could your people work solely from home and never come into our big corporate fancy office downtown?” Their answer probably would've been no, right? They need to have meetings, they need to have phone calls, they need to do the lawyerly stuff that costs a lot of money and it happens in their building. And I think it's the same for us in veterinary medicine.

Stephanie Goss:

And so for me, the root of answering this question goes to, how do we figure out that way of doing it and how do we think outside the box? And because for me, the answer to the question is, “I would way rather retain good quality people, because I know how hard it is to find new people.” And so to your question, yes, I have a business model where clients bring their pets to me in my building currently. Could I continue to have that business model and also change my hours to meet more of the needs of my team so I can retain the existing team I have? To your point, can we close on Wednesdays if that's the slowest day of the week to give the team a break in the middle of the week where we can do other things outside of the building, right? For me, the answer very much lies in the people, and I have to think about that from a global perspective of my team and also the client's needs too.

Andy Roark:

Yeah. I think to the point of, will we ever be as flexible as other industries? I think the answer is no, as far as any other industry, right? We are a service industry that requires touch. We're in the same category as food service, right? Is there a virtual chef? No. There's virtual cooking coaches and there's quality control, and there's managers, but ultimately the patrons come to the restaurant and they need to get the food, which needs to be prepared. Is there a virtual auto mechanic? No. Someone needs to actually go under the hood and fix the thing. And at the same time, I think your point is spot on that we look at other industries like food service, and they are desperately struggling to retain employees, because other industries do allow people to work from home and things like that.

Andy Roark:

And so I think that the short answer is, “No, we'll never be as flexible as the web designers who have always worked from home. We'll never be as flexible as a marketing firm, but we also very much need to be looking at what we can do,” because throwing up our hands and being like, “That's not who we are, we can't do that,” I think that is going to be very problematic. And that is going to make it hard for us to continue to bring good people into our practices and to retain them. But those things can both be true. You can say, “Well, we're never just going to have everyone work from home.” That said, let's go ahead and figure out the best way that we can do our thing to give that flexibility while still meeting the needs of our pet owners and that's the battle that we face.

Stephanie Goss:

Yeah. And this is where I think, thinking outside the box is really beneficial. And honestly this is probably an exercise that I would do for myself individually when I think about what you and I have said so far about headspace, okay. I would want to be in this dreaming space and think, “Okay, if I set aside all of those little voices inside my brain that tells me, ‘I might be thinking crazy if I think like this,'” Let's start by looking at what are other industries doing? What are other companies that are not veterinary medicine are doing first? That's where I start, and then I narrow my vision and my scope down from there, because I don't think that the answer… To my friend's point, who was asking the question about relief vets, I don't think the answer can be everybody leaves and goes to work for companies in the pet health space to your point, right?

Stephanie Goss:

Because veterinary medicine at its core is providing patient care, and so in order to do that, there are some things that we have to put our hands on the patients to do, a lot of things that we have to put our hands on the patients to do. And I think it's also not wrong, and is important from a headspace perspective to not not narrow our vision, to a place of fear of like, “Well, all my vets are going to leave me and become relief vets.” Or, “All my technicians are going to leave me and go work for Guardian Vet.” Because when, when we start thinking about those things in the pet health space that are… When we start looking at them solely as competition and not as mutually beneficial relationships is a very dangerous mind space to be in.

Stephanie Goss:

So I would think more globally and look at other industries, having flexible schedules, having parents who are trying to still in so many places, homeschool their kids and have their kids home during the day. As a mom, the ability to be able to work from 5:00 PM to 11:00 PM when my kids… when I have help with them or somebody else can take the evening shift, and I could work so that I could be with them during the day to homeschool them. Having a schedule flexibility like that at the beginning of the pandemic, I would've dropped a lot to take on an option like that.

Stephanie Goss:

So it's about thinking in little ways, outside the box of what can we do to support our team. And so maybe that is taking one of your technicians who's really struggling to keep up with the schedule and say to your point, “Hey, do you want to work from home one day a week?” Or, “Do you want to work in the evenings two days a week, and we're going to create a new job description of things that you are still going to do that are beneficial to the practice, that you wouldn't necessarily be doing if you were here in the building, but that still benefit the team as a whole. And then in turn, benefit you on a personal level.”

Stephanie Goss:

And so for me, during the pandemic, I went through this with some of my team, and that was very much where I started, was like, what are the needs of my immediate team? And what are the needs of our clients? And where are the discrepancies and where are the easy wins? Where can I create some space? Because starting with those little steps makes the big steps feel so much easier, right? And sometimes we just have to get a win or two under our belt to be able to think bigger and more global.

Andy Roark:

I worked a practice, and they ran basically a split schedule, which I thought was great. They worked in the mornings, and then they geared down for about two hours in the middle of the day, and then they geared back up and went into the evening. And that gave a nice… Basically, they dealt in half days, and so you could work half days and you could trade around, and they let people trade their schedules, which was, “Hey, we just need to have coverage. And if you want to trade a half day to this person and you guys do that,” they let employees work that stuff out, and swap around. I will tell just that by itself increases a lot of flexibility, for people to be able to get off, if they can trade with other people, it makes life really easy. So just a split schedule that worked really well.

Andy Roark:

And then what they would do is in order to cover that two hour period, they'd go down to a skeleton crew, but they had one of the vets, and she had kids at kids in school. And so she would come in and start at 06:30 or 07:00 in the morning. And so as soon as the front desk arrived, she would be there. And man, they'd start rocking out appointments at 7:00 AM, and if you think nobody will come for a 07:00 AM appointment, you're wrong. They will a hundred percent come.

Stephanie Goss:

Absolutely.

Andy Roark:

And they will do it and drop that pet back off at home, and they'll get to work at 9:00 AM and feel great about their day. And so she would come in, she's seen appointments at 7:30 in the morning, and fill it up. And so she would work through, and then late morning she would take a lunch break, and then she would work with a technician and assistant, and she would work through that split shift, so she would cover those hours. So if someone burst in the door during the lunch break, we had a doctor that was there, and then as soon as lunch ended, she was off. Her day ended at 02:30 in the afternoon, and she was out, and she went and picked her kid up at 03:00, and it worked for her.

Andy Roark:

That's not rocket science, you know what I mean? But it is just having good conversations about, “What does your schedule look like? And what do you need?” Your point people go, “You can't have someone work from 5:00 PM to 11:00 PM.” Yeah, you can. If you really ran an audit of the things in your practices that needed done-

Stephanie Goss:

So many things.

Andy Roark:

Yeah, exactly. There are so many things that do not need to have other people. You don't need to have other colleagues around for inventory, basic inventory. For ordering, for bill pay, for payroll, for all of these administrative things. If someone can work that time and you can set that up and facilitate it, that stuff is all fair game. We're seeing a lot of practices that are going to four 10s. We see that a lot in Uncharted and a lot of employees really want that. They want to come in, and they want to work four 10 hour days and be done. We have a lot of practices that do it and do it well, and it's really a personal preference. What do you want? But those things can make a big difference.

Stephanie Goss:

Yeah. And I think a lot of the time… And I sense this from this writer, and I feel it because I've been there. Again, it's easy to think about what we might be able to do for the front desk or for our doctors who can see telemedicine. It's a lot harder for a lot of us to think about the technicians, because we think about their gifts solely from a patient care perspective. And I think it's really important to think about to… And it's very easy. I know this was my challenge as a manager. If I look at Sarah and I think Sarah's an exceptionally skilled LVT and she runs our surgery. And if I don't have her there, surgery doesn't run as smoothly. And I need somebody else to fill in that gap, it's very easy to pigeonhole,

Stephanie Goss:

But there are things that Sarah could do that might not be maximizing her patient care skills, the way running surgery in the practice Monday through Friday can. However, if I can make what might be short term changes, they may also wind up being long term changes. But if I can flex to meet Sarah's needs and retain Sarah as an employee, isn't that far better for me in the practice, in the long run than if I say, “I only see value in Sarah's tech skills, and so I can't think outside of the box beyond having her run surgery during the day, right?”

Stephanie Goss:

We often think about our skilled employees as we have to maximize their skills, and that is true. They worked really hard to put themselves through school, to get credentialed, and we should want to maximize their skills. And it is also not smart for us to not ask them what they want, because we may be making assumptions about what they want and what they need without asking them. And so I was so surprised during the pandemic when I asked some of my Sarahs, “Hey, I don't want to make assumptions about your skills, and I see the value, and I want you to be able to leverage your skillset when you're here. Is this what works best for you?”

Stephanie Goss:

I was surprised at some of their answers, and I was surprised at how, for some of them, the answer was, “I'm really struggling with child care right now. And it would mean the world to me if I could flex my schedule one day a week to make this, this, and this happen in my personal life.” Or, “I'm content with where I am, and I don't want to change.” Or, “Can I be a CSR because I really need to work from home, and if I can't change my position within the company that drastically, I can't continue to be an employee here.” And you bet your ass as a manager, I would rather keep Sarah employed in the short term, doing CSR duties from home and have her be a part of the team, than lose her all together, because as I can't flex to meet her needs.

Stephanie Goss:

And so for me, the thinking outside of the box, I started with looking at other industries, and then I started looking at what were my peers doing in veterinary medicine. And this is where groups like Uncharted in our community is invaluable to me during this time to be able to see what are other are people doing, because I'm one of those people where it's really easy to get pigeonholed into my frame of mind. But if you show me a template or an example, all of a sudden the ideas become unlocked, and I have all of the creative possibility in the world, but getting started is my hurdle. And there are a lot of people that are like that.

Stephanie Goss:

So reaching out and talking to our peers and seeing what are other people doing. And the last piece of that for me very much is asking the team. And obviously you want to do it in a way that doesn't open the flood gates, right? I can't commit to anything without knowing what their ideas are, but I also can't work with them to solve this problem without asking them for their input. And so I started with my hospital leadership team and said, “What do you guys think?” And then we expanded it from there. And I asked the team and I was really surprised at the creativity that came from the technician team about things that they could do that directly impacted patient care, but that weren't laying hands on patients in the practice.

Stephanie Goss:

So we had a technician in my team who switched to doing a lot of the case follow up and client contact, and so they took on making… We had always had technicians do callbacks in our practice, but we were able to take that to a whole other level, and they became the triage point of contact for the doctors. And so all of that patient care contact was run through that person from home, and it freed up the doctor's time to put hands on patients, and it freed up another technician to put hands on patients. And it was something that was so simple that I never would've thought that they would've wanted to do, because I wouldn't have thought that, that would've been maximizing their skills, but I didn't ask them. And it was only until I asked them their perspective and their opinion that my perspective was able to be shifted and changed. Yeah,

Andy Roark:

No, I think that, that's great. I think what I want people to leave this podcast with is a belief that every practice can be different.

Stephanie Goss:

Yes.

Andy Roark:

And there's not going to be a set standard of how we do our schedule, but the scheduling is very important, and we need to be thinking of about what is possible in your practice. And not being bound by the assumptions we made in the past or conventions. It does not do us any good to make a schedule that no one's going to show up and work, and so I think that's really it. So I hope this is just giving people ideas, and I wish I could say, “Here's how you do your schedule.” It's not possible. All the practices are too different. We're all looking at different things. But looking at your own at your own practice, and also looking around and seeing what other people are doing for schedules in other industries, I think that, that's the smart play.

Andy Roark:

Get serious about looking at all the things that happen in your hospital. Break them out, I think Stephanie's point about the technician being virtual is a great one. You go, “But they need to put hands on the pet.” It's like, “Your technicians can be your best communicators, they can be planners, they can be patient advocates, they can be educators, they can be all of these things.” It as possible to have leveraged technicians that are not there in the building, but you have to be creative and you have to be smart about how you build that job description out. So a lot of it is thinking about, what do we really do with our time and can we rearrange these things to maximize flexibility for people? But guys, I think that this is an area that we're going to keep getting better and better at. And I think, the days of, “We all do it the same way and we all scheduled the same way,” I think those days are over.

Stephanie Goss:

I would agree.

Andy Roark:

Awesome. Thanks for doing this with me, Steph, I really appreciate it.

Stephanie Goss:

Yeah. Have a great week, everybody.

Andy Roark:

See you everybody.

Stephanie Goss:

Well, everybody that's wrap on another episode of the podcast. Thanks so much for spending your time with us. We truly enjoy spending part of our week with you. As always, Andy and I enjoyed getting into this topic. I have a tiny little favor to ask, actually, two of them. One is if you can go to wherever you source your podcast from and hit the review button and leave us a review, we love hearing your feedback and knowing what you think of the podcast. And number two, if you haven't already, hit the subscribe button. Thanks so much for listening guys. We'll see you soon.

What's This Episode About?

This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are weighing in on a recent conversation that Stephanie had with a fellow manager. This manager has a technician on their team who is excellent at their job, has high skills, and is overall well-liked by the team. However, it seems like they have a teeny, weensy little flaw in that they are one of the most pessimistic people that this manager has ever encountered. Most of the team shrugs it off as “This is just Kelly, being Kelly” and yet there are a few members of the team who really struggle with taking the pessimism personally. This manager feels stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of conflict managing this situation, knows that they do not want to lose good people on either side of this apparent battle, and was reaching out saying “Please help me!” Let’s get into this…

You can listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

Upcoming Events

April 21-23: The Uncharted Veterinary Conference, LIVE in Greenville, SC

The Uncharted Conference in April is our flagship event. In celebration of 5 years serving the veterinary profession, we have shifted the focus of this conference inward. You’re not looking to grow your business outwardly – you’re looking for ways to build resiliency and reignite your love for your career. During this 3-day adventure in beautiful Greenville, South Carolina, you’ll be discussing topics like hiring for culture, creating the story that becomes your path, and building smoother, more simple ways to practice. This event is open to members only. Registration for this conference closes on April 1, 2022. DO NOT MISS OUT – Snag your spot today.

A UVC MEMBERSHIP IS YOUR KEY TO FINALLY GETTING THINGS DONE AND GROWING YOUR VETERINARY PRACTICE.

---

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Stephanie:

Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are tackling a topic that I was recently discussing with another practice manager, who is struggling with a team member who is very pessimistic. And this manager was looking for some advice and some support on how to conflict manage the situation. Because this pessimistic technician has most of the team just looking at it, rolling their eyes and saying, “This is just her being her,” and there are a few people on the team who don't feel the same way. And this manager is struggling with how to figure out, which way to address this from and the best way to approach it without making everybody upset. Let's get into this one.

Speaker 2:

And now the Uncharted Podcast.

Andy:

And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie, stuck between a rock and a hard place, Goss. That's a rolling stone song I think. I'm pretty sure. It's like new Rolling Stone, newish Rolling Stones.

Stephanie:

How's it going, Andy?

Andy:

Oh boy. It's bonkers. As we're recording this, it's the week before Christmas and it's crazy. The kids are out of school and just there's holiday things, which are great, not complaining, it's just a lot.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Andy:

Yeah.

Stephanie:

Yes. Well, this is that time of the year too, towards the end of the year all of the stuff has to get it done. And I just like, there's personal stuff that has to get done and lots of work stuff that's happening, and trying to think about holidays and all of the things. It is definitely, definitely crazy.

Andy:

What's funny like is and it's a conflict too, right? Like there's all the personal things. Everyone has their stuff they're trying to get it done, but they need other people and those other people, they have their own things that they're trying to get done. And so when you ask other people for stuff it's a long slow process, but at the same time we all feel great stress to get things done.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Andy:

I think that's the weird paradox of the end of the year is at the time it's most wonderful to be present, it is also ridiculously hard because the world around you is swirling and everyone is trying to do their own being present thing.

Stephanie:

Yes. Yes. It's crazy.

Andy:

All right. Let's get into this episode because we got a good one here. I'm actually really excited.

Stephanie:

Me too. So there was a recent conversation that I was a part of and it was a manager who was asking for some help with conflict management within their team. And they are struggling because they have a team member who they said is incredibly pessimistic.

Andy:

Yes.

Stephanie:

They said, “They're potentially the most pessimistic person I've ever met and they are also an incredible technician. Maybe one of the most incredible technicians I've ever worked with.” And so they said 99% of the team just ignores the pessimism and just thinks of it as Kelly being Kelly, when they're having a moment. However, there are a couple of team members who are much gentler, more sensitive souls and they take Kelly's pessimism totally personally. And that when she goes on a rant or is just in a pessimistic state, they take it super personally.

Stephanie:

And so they are coming to the manager and are upset and frustrated because they feel like Kelly is directing negativity towards them as individuals rather than the situation itself. And so they are with being able to see past taking it personally. And so it is causing drama within the team because everybody's upset. This manager was like, “I've talked to everybody individually and I've tried to get them to work it out. But I feel like I'm not getting anywhere because Kelly is who she is. And her love of pessimism and her outlook is just who she is. And that it, I don't feel like I can change that.

Stephanie:

And I'm also really struggling to get the other team members who are more sensitive and gentle, that's part of their personality. And so I can't really ask them to change that either. And so I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place, and I just don't want to lose anybody because I'm not solving the problem.” Because everybody on the team looks to the manager to be the voice of reason and just solve the problem. And so this manager was just like, “I don't know what to do. How do I mediate this conflict because I don't even know where to start?”

Andy:

I like this question a lot. I like it a lot because the simple answer is that this manager has made a number of assumptions that have made her or him incapable of getting to a good solution.

Stephanie:

Sure.

Andy:

As I read this, I go, “That's an assumption, that's not true. Nope. That's not true either.” And there are so many things here that I would push back against and question and tinker with. And I was like, oh boy, I would say this manager has told herself a story that does not have an escape hatch, but I don't think that story is accurate. And so I'm really excited to pick this story apart and try to make this situation look entirely different. So I'm not there, I don't know these people. I can't say exactly what to do, but I can tell you an entirely different story that is much more hopeful than what is here.

Stephanie:

I am glad about that because I will admit this is one of those episodes where I will say, it's me. This was me. This was me, this was my clinic. I've had this person, I've been this manager and trying to see past… I think you hit it spot on, and I'm super excited to get into this, but trying to see past the absolute of the situation and feeling like I have one of two solutions. That was me in the moment I got very narrowed down into like, “This is the only way out.” And so I'm super excited to talk about it from a place of perspective now and to talk about it with you, because I think it's so easy in the moment to see through a very new narrowed lens because you're too close to it.

Andy:

I love these conversations in person because I'll be in an event, I'll be at a conference and someone will come, “Tell me this.” And they see two options and I love it because I can make their head explode. Just standing there, give me 90 seconds. And I will. And I can often, it depends on the individual, I can often just shock them because I know this trap, I've seen this. We've all seen this trap. When you get to the place where you think you have two options and neither of them are acceptable, you are probably mistaken.

Stephanie:

Sure.

Andy:

So you could be in a nightmare scenario, you're living in a Saw movie and there are horrible options and that's all there is. Probably not, probably not. So, okay, the first thing that you have to do in this case is stop thinking in absolutes. The writer is like, “Well, I got two options. I can put up with this forever until everyone-

Stephanie:

Quits.

Andy:

… quits. Or I can fire this really great person who has one bad habit immediately and lose them forever. And I just don't know what to do.” And I'm like that those are not your two options. Stop thinking in absolutes, it's not put up with this or fire this person. It's time to set realistic expectations. So let me just go ahead and start to lay down some realistic expectations about culture. I wrote an article about this it's going to be coming out in… I think it's going to be February, probably around February 1st, it's going to be in Today's Vet Business is my column. So it's already gone in to be edited, but I really like the piece and it's because I've seen so much of this.

Andy:

People think that that culture and having a good practice fit is a binary condition. You have it or you don't have it. And if you can build it then you built it and it's built, and now you've built it and now you have it and you're going to continue to have it, and that box has been checked. And now you get to just live and enjoy living with the goodness of the culture that you have built, that's not how this works. Doesn't work that way.

Andy:

That's a ridiculous expectation and people… And the thing is I get calls and you get calls, we get calls all the time, from people who are like, “I have failed. My team used to be happy and now it's not. And people aren't getting along and someone has quit their job and left. And the only reason can be because I have failed them in building a good workplace for them to be in. Just slap me across the face please because I deserve it.” And those are the types of self flagellating emails that I get. That's just lunacy. This is not how this works. Look, culture is a process, team fit is a process. It never ends if you are having a wonderful time and everyone is getting along hold that trophy, suck that joy up, suck it in through your pores because it's not going to last forever, something is going to happen.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Andy:

It's going to happen. The only constant is impermanence.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Andy:

That is it. That is the only constant. And you got a good thing now and that's great. And your chances of having a good thing and getting back to a good thing are higher, much higher when you're a good leader and you manage for culture and you prioritize for culture. But it doesn't matter how good a leader you are or how much you prioritize for culture, you are going to hit rough spots. And people are going to leave and they're not going to get along, and they're going to go through things in their personal life, and they're going to bring that stress into the workplace. And it's not about you, but you're going to deal with it and you're going to say, “Oh, I have failed.”

Andy:

You've got to put that aside and recognize culture is a process and it is cyclical. And we are all going to go through, hopefully, we're going to go through good periods and we're all going to go through bad periods. And if we're lucky, we're going to through a lot more good periods than bad periods. But the truth is guys, most of us are going to spend the majority of our practice life, somewhere in between a not good workplace and an amazing workplace. And we're on the treadmill and we're trying to get in cultural shape and that's the way we live our life.

Andy:

And so when this person says, “Fire this individual or I can not fire them and everyone continues to suffer forever, and those are the only two options.” I'm going, “No, the option's the treadmill in the middle.” The option is managing this and every now and then other people are less happy. And every now and then this person is going to go back to their old ways and you're going to have to deal with it and you're going to deal with it and it's going to be okay, but it's going to be a process. It's not going to be a problem that you probably fix and have it fixed.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Andy:

I think people feel like if it's not a problem that I can fix and have fixed and check the box on, then I must not be doing it right. And that's not true, some burdens can't be solve they have to be carried and that's culture a lot of the time. Is you go, “I can't fix people. I especially can't fix people who don't want to be fixed or who don't want to help themselves, so I have to carry the load.” And by carry the load, that doesn't mean suffer in silence. It means I have to, “God forbid, I have to manage these people.” And you're like, “Don't say that, no.” Yes. We have to manage these people.

Stephanie:

Well, so I have a question for you. So you are one of the most like a positive and hopeful outlook people that I know. And it's funny because I probably, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago in my career in VetMed shifted to the mindset that you're talking about. That I really got to a place where I was like I am exhausted by constantly looking at things from a place of absolutes and feeling like, “Yes, I finally got this amazing team and oh, someone quit.” And it would devastate me because it was like, I had worked so hard and I felt so good and then it all fell apart. And that I know you were partially joking when you were teasing about people's self flagellating, but that is a really real place, especially for someone who is a high achiever-

Andy:

Sure.

Stephanie:

… of feeling like this all fell apart and this is all my fault.So I through a lot of therapy, got to a place in my own personal management journey where I was like, “This is life.” And I got to that place that you're talking about, where I was like, “It's all cyclical.” And eventually someone is going to move, someone's going to have a baby, something's going to change within the team and we're going to have to start all over again. We're not starting from square one, we're starting from the middle and so we'll march back up. And I started having this conversation with friends and I got accused more than once of that being a very negative outlook, that something was always going to… like it's always going to fall at some point. And in our team we say the cup is already broken.

Andy:

The cup is already broken.

Stephanie:

But people were just like, “That's such a negative outlook.” And I really struggled with that because I was like, “I feel like this is the most positive, healthy outlook that I could possibly have.” Knowing that we're going to have ups and downs and it's going to be good, and it's going to be bad and it's going to be in between, and I can't control that. But I'm curious to hear your take on that because I can imagine that there's people listening to this who are just like, “Well, if you think about the fact that it's always going to break, isn't that a really negative outlook?”

Andy:

Yeah. No, the answer is no, yes and no. So here's the thing. So here's the weird positivity that I deeply believe in. You've heard me talk about life is suffering and life is struggling. And I believe that, honestly guys, I believe. So here's the short version. I believe that we are creatures formed in the fires of natural selection, I believe that that is our hard wiring. The stuff that drives us is the stuff that we have picked up evolutionarily from natural selection.

Stephanie:

Sure.

Andy:

Natural selection does not want us to be content.

Stephanie:

Sure.

Andy:

Contentment is dead species. Species that are content, they don't explore, they don't innovate, they don't seek out new environments, they don't take risks, they don't do anything that a species would need to grow and thrive, they sit.

Stephanie:

Sure.

Andy:

And evolutionarily speaking the temperature changes, the new predator arrives, that species is dead, they are extinct, they are wiped out, that is the history of the world again and again and again. And so we have been the most successful species on the planet. You know why? Because we are not wired to be content. We are wired to want. We are wired to struggle, it's called the hedonic treadmill. If you got the biggest raise that you could ever want, the one you are thinking about, the one you're like, “Andy doesn't mean this much money.” Yes I do. That's how much money I mean. You were like, “I would be happy.” And I would say to you, “No you won't. No you won't.” People who win the lottery, there's research on this. Lottery winners are generally happy for about three months.

Stephanie:

Yep.

Andy:

And then they're just the same person than they were before but now they have money. And they're like, “None of these other problems went away. My kids still won't talk to me. I still have headaches and my bunions and all the things that I have, and I don't look good in a swimsuit.” And all the things that they are you sure they don't come back and it's just like, “Well, money's one less thing.” So anyway, we're not wired to be happy, there's no point where we're like, “Yes, we made it.” Okay. So we are not wired to be happy, which means we are always going to be struggling. And so if you look around and you're like, “God, my life is hard and I'm tired.” That's normal. You're doing it right. That's unfortunately, that's what we signed up for, that is the experience.

Andy:

And so a couple of things come from that, number one, you better hold onto the good stuff and enjoy it and I really think that people don't do that. And that is one of the biggest things. So when I say, hold the trophy, like I said, five minutes ago, that's what I mean. And you should hold onto the trophy, so that's number one is hold onto the good stuff. Number two, realize that the greatest empowerment you can have is choosing how you struggle. It's like there's no perfect job. Every job is a job. As soon as it becomes a job, it's a job. You know that hobby that you love doing, the thing you're like, “This is great.” If people started paying you for it and you relied on it for your income, it would stop being a hobby, it would be a job.

Andy:

And there would be parts about it, you'd be like, “I hate this.” And this is just how it is. And so at least in that way you would choose, “This maybe a job, but it's still my job and it's still what I choose to do.” And so we choose how we struggle related to that. The cup is already broken. And what I mean when I say that and again, it's the same mentality. So the cup is already broken comes from a story of a Buddhist monk and he is sitting with his students and he's got this teacup. And so he's got this teacup in his hand and the students are asking him about impermanence. About how nothing in life stays, “Isn't that depressing? Isn't that sad?” Isn't that exactly what we're talking about here.

Stephanie:

Right.

Andy:

When you say, “I know that none of this is going to last. I know that people are going to leave. I know I'm going to be back on the struggle bus dealing with this again,” isn't that sad. And so they say that to the Buddhist monk, “Isn't that sad?” And he looks at them and he holds up his teacup and he says, “This is my teacup. This was given to me as a gift from one of my friends and it makes me happy when I see it. And I love the way the sunlight hits it and it sparkles on the design. And it's so beautiful and it holds my tea quite admirably, but I know that this cup will break. It will break. All things break, it will break.

Andy:

In my mind this cup is already broken. And so every day that I wake up and it is not broken is a gift to me. And when it does break, I will be okay because I knew long ago that it was already broken.” And so on our team when we say the cup is already broken, that's what I mean. Nothing is permanent. And so every day that we have it is a gift and every day that we don't have it, it's okay because we knew we weren't going to have it. And guys I believe that that is the definition of true practical, sustainable happiness and positivity. And so thank you for saying that I'm an optimist. I am an optimist. And thanks for saying that I'm positive. And that's how I stay positive is not in some panacea world where I think everything is great, it's going to be great. But I can look at the broken world around us and the cup is already broken and that makes me happy.

Andy:

And so the same thing is true here when we look at our team and we look at these people who are not getting along, the cup is already broken. And if we can get it to not be broken and then every day's a gift. And so that's why I see that and that's kind of how I have that kind of… That's kind of how I have positivity in these scenarios and also to be honest about what are we up against?

Stephanie:

So I have a question for you so I was not kidding when I said this, we're talking about one of my practices-

Andy:

Yeah. Sure.

Stephanie:

… and I've been there, been this manager. And on my team the conversation from Kelly herself was, “This is just who I am. I'm a bitch get over it.” That was the conversation. And I really struggled with that on a personal level, but also from a trying to manage this and manage the people perspective. Because when I looked outward in at the situation, it wasn't about Kelly and who she was, it was about what she was doing-

Andy:

Yes.

Stephanie:

… the things she was saying, how she was saying it, the behaviors. And I really struggled with it because the team members who were the ones who got offended were just like, “Okay. So, I guess, I just brush it off because that's who she is.” And I was like, “No, no.” Because we have team rules that we don't yell at each other. And we don't we don't throw each other under the bus or whatever the behaviors were that were being exhibited. And so I was like, “You don't just give up on this conversation because it's not about the person, it's about what they're doing.”

Andy:

Yep. Totally. Okay. So this is assumption number two, that has locked our manager into a trap, she's entrapped herself with assumption number two. And the assumption number two is and she says this, “This is who she is. This is who our pessimistic person is. And then the front desk, this is who they are, they are these soft people who get their feelings hurt and that's who they are. And I can't change who they are, so I'm defeated.” And I'm like, “If that's what you believe you are to defeated.” This is your conversation because you're right I can't help you, but that's not true.

Andy:

It's not true. This is not about who she is, this is about a behavior that she is exhibiting. And so the classic mistake here with manager is to confuse the behavior and the individual. And once you say that something is an individual, you are screwed, you're screwed because you can't change people. And there is no changing who someone is, and also it's hard to give people feedback and have them hear it. Because if you criticize who I am as a person, “Boy, I have got some evolutionary, tribal status defense systems here that are going to rise to the battle, and make me argue against you and reject what you're saying, because you're talking about who I am and my identity.”

Andy:

It's all trap don't even go there, that's a swamp that you should not lay into, it's not who she is. She if she is a good technician, as you say, then she is a compassionate kindhearted person who is very smart and competent, who is choosing to communicate pessimistic thoughts continuously to the staff. And that is the behavior of this person and do not let them say to you, “This is who I am.” I reject that. And I think we talk a lot about your job being a relationship, and that's just a metaphor that helps me a lot and I like to think about it. And so our job is a relationship, which means if you're my technician, we have a relationship.

Andy:

I'm not interested in being in a relationship when someone who comes in treats me like crap, makes me feel bad and then says, “Well, that's just who I am, you couldn't deal with it.” I can deal with it by deleting your phone number from my phone and not having you around.

Stephanie:

Walking away.

Andy:

And walking away and that is how to deal with it because I'm not going to deal with someone who can't take any feedback like that or who treats other people that way. This is a relationship and so I can say, “Hey, this is a behavior and this is how it makes me feel or these are the problems that it causes. And I like you and I see the goodness in you, I see the benefits in you, this behavior needs to change.” And by twisting it back to this behavior, she's not a pessimist. And if you say she's a pessimist, you are tying your own hands. She's not, she is a competent professional who communicates in a pessimistic way or communicates pessimistic negative thoughts to other team members. Who reacts negatively to new ideas.

Stephanie:

Right.

Andy:

Those are behaviors that can a hundred percent be put down or coached or changed. But you have got to reject assumption number two, which is this is who they are. No, can't change that. I'm here to tell you, it's not who they are, they are who they are, but this is a behavior and we are going to address the behavior. And so they certainly have the power to change their behavior.

Stephanie:

Well, and I think part of it, part of why it's such a swamp and a trap, I call these the big gopher traps. Like that is a big giant gopher trap, don't step in it. Because when you make it personal and look at it as that's just who they are, “This is Kelly's personality.” Then you're disciplining or having conversations that are disciplinary in nature on a personal level, which is unacceptable from an HR perspective, it feels punitive, it can feel retaliatory on both sides. And that's the point is on both sides, so you are labeling them as a person and they can absorb that information from a personal perspective, “She doesn't like me. She's against me. She's out to get me.” But I will tell you as the manager, it is also so easy it into your own head that you are labeling this person and that is your view of them.

Stephanie:

And that is a very quick and fast slippery slope, because I will tell you having walked through this, it was very easy for me to look at Kelly and be like, “God, she's a great technician, but oh my God, I just want to ring her neck.” And that's not healthy for me or for Kelly because the truth was I really liked Kelly. And I all of a sudden all of the other behaviors and all of the other things about my interactions with her were colored, because I was making it personal versus looking at it for to your point Andy as, if I just look at it and I step back and take that 30,000 mile view, I can look at it objectively and look at the behaviors and it doesn't feel personal.

Stephanie:

And so I think that that goes both ways and I think that's, for me, that's why number two, trap number two is so important because it can affect them and their perception of you and how you deal with the situation. But it also very much affects you and your outlook on that person and the situation as a whole.

Andy:

I agree with that. Assumption number three is this is a great technician. We got that piece of information and they're like, “Oh, she's super great.” And I'm like, “Wait a second let me get this right. You have a fantastic employee that you think might potentially drive away a number of other staff members who are also very good. I just want to make sure I'm processing this.” Like, “Oh, she's the best, except that she's toxic. She's fantastic. Like that's what I'm hearing from you, just want to make sure that I got this.”

Stephanie:

Yes. That's what you got.

Andy:

All right. Okay. So let's get in [crosstalk 00:27:55].

Stephanie:

Oh gosh.

Andy:

But that's what I hear and I go, “This does not make sense.” All right. So here we go. Let's talk about evaluating employees for a second. There's a number of different skills that I like to use that you have talked about a number of times. And the one that I'm going to reach for into my tool bag right here is the old fit skill tool. So what I would do is I would turn to this manager and say, “Let's talk about Kelly the pessimistic technician. You say she's great. On a scale of one to 10, I want you to rate for me how skilled is Kelly. And when I say skill I mean technical skill, blood draws, catheter placement, general radiograph however you gauge skill. Is she a 10? Which means she's the best I've ever seen. Or is she one where she's God awful, you would not let her touch your own pet.”

Andy:

Where is she? And I would get a number on fit and scale. Now, usually when people come to me with things like this, what they're saying to me is she has high levels of skill. She is highly skilled and they'll say, “She's a nine.” And I go, “Okay, cool. She's a nine. So she's really technically very good.” Okay. The other part of this, which is equally weighted, at least equally weighted is fit. Is she a good fit? Does she fit in with the team? Do they like to be around her? Does she make the workplace better? Does she communicate well? Does she fit in with who we are, with our values and with the people that she has to work with?

Andy:

And I want you to rate her on that on a scale of one to 10 and here's where the rubber meets the road. This is where I'm going to really make my decision about how we're going to go here. If you come back to me and you say, “Ooh, she's like a three, she causes fights all the time.” Then I would say, “Okay, cool. You have a high skill, low fit employee.” Alternatively, you might come back and go, “She's like an eight. Once you know her she's really great. She has this bad habit, but she's really great.” And I go, “Okay. These are very different positions.” The toxic technician just so you know is a high skill, low fit employee and that is how this works. So let me run through the quadrants real quick. Let's say that we have someone who's high fit and high skill.

Andy:

They're great technically at their job and everybody likes them. We retain this person. We invest in this person. We chain this person to… We don't let them go home at night because they might not come back. We carry them on our shoulders from their car to the buildings and their feet don't have to touch the ground, that's how we celebrate them. So that's high fit, high skill. Now you've got high skill, low fit, which is where we are right now, we'll come back to that. We've got high fit, poor skill. This is the person everybody likes, but they make a lot of mistakes.

Stephanie:

Yep.

Andy:

And the last is the low fit, low skill. They're not good at their job and nobody likes them. We don't tend to see a lot of those people because they have been liberated. They don't stick around because nobody likes them and they're not good at their job, those people are employed somewhere, which is sad. But if they were liberated, they would go find somewhere else where they had skills that better fit the job and they would fit in better. And so keeping them is probably not serving them any better than serving you. So anyway, that's a brief overview of the four quadrants. Now, toxic techs are high skill, low fit. Why is that? It's because if they weren't good at their technical work, they would be in the quadrant as low skill and low fit-

Stephanie:

You wouldn't keep them.

Andy:

… you would fire them. They only get to be toxic because they're really good at the technical part of the job, so we can put up with the awful communication relationship part and that's a mistake. It's possible that Kelly is toxic. It is possible that she is technically good and she is sucking the soul out of the team and dumping toxicity into the waters. It is possible. If that is true, she needs to be let go. And people are like, “Wait, wait, wait, we can talk to her. Yes. You can talk to her and we can try to coach her. And I'm happy to talk to you about how to try to coach her. Just go ahead and start the cup is already broken and go ahead and start making plans.” Because 80 plus percent of the time, you're not going to coach back a toxic person.

Andy:

Once they're toxic, they need to be liberated to get a fresh start somewhere else. And again, I'm speaking broad generalities, but it ain't my first rodeo, so just file that away. I suspect based on the fact that I hear that she is the best technician, and some of the other words that I'm hearing, I don't believe that this is necessarily a-

Stephanie:

Toxic.

Andy:

… good skill, low fit, toxic person. I think this is a good skill, good fit person who has a bad habit or has a behavioral pattern, that is career limiting for them. And that's how I would talk about it, “This is career limiting. You are not going to get opportunities. You are not going to move on and move up and get to do more things, when I have to keep cleaning up after the mess that you make.” And so, anyway I run through that exercise just because if you go, “Oh no, she's a three in fit.” She's probably toxic and I'm going to be looking a lot more towards liberating her to go find somewhere else. Everyone would probably be happier if she goes away, including her.

Andy:

If she's not, if she a high fit, high skill employee with a bad habit, now this is worth coaching. And we can 100% coach this person, if she wants to be coached. But often if they're a good fit, they do want to be coached. And so, anyway, those are two different scenarios. That's the third assumption is this is a great employee who's driving the staff away, and I can't change her because that's who she is. I'm like that doesn't stack up to me, something is wrong here in this assessment. Cool. And so I put all those things down. Stop thinking in absolutes, it's not keep this person and suffer the consequences of this behavior, keep going on and on and on or let this person go. The answer is often in the middle and we manage this person and they'll probably have… Hopefully, we can get them back on the straight and narrow and they'll probably fall off, and then we'll probably pick them back up and this will be something that we'll continue to work on and coach.

Andy:

Because a lot of times we have personality types and we have to work through them and change takes time. So have realistic expectations about the amount of improvement that we can expect. The second assumption is assuming that this is how the person is. It's like, nope, separate the behavior from the individual, coach the behavior, not the individual. And the last thing is really evaluate this person. What are you dealing with? And if their evaluation is negative, that may decide what we do. And ultimately, based on how we feel about those things, we are going to come to the big head space question for me. And that is what is kind, what is kind? Because I am not a hard ass. Sometimes I wish I was, I'm not, I'm a softie. I'm a softie, I get my feelings hurt [crosstalk 00:35:08].

Stephanie:

It's a true story.

Andy:

I'm not. And so I'm not, but I am a 100% unwilling to let my business suffer and I will absolutely make the hard call. And here's how I make the hard call and here's how I feel good about it. I ask myself what is kind, what is kind to me, what is kind to my family, what is kind to my staff, what is kind to the other doctors, what is kind to the people who have to work with this person, what is kind to the person who's causing the problem. And if the kindest thing for the person who is not happy here and is pessimistic and just thinks everything is awful, and the people who are feeling bummed out and criticized by her, and me and my clients is for this person to leave then I should do the kindest thing, which is liberate this person. Honestly, that is the mental trick I play on myself, some self kung-fu that I do.

Andy:

And ultimately I go, “Yeah, that is the kindest thing. And so I'm a softie I'm going to go do the kind thing. But I have to believe in what the kind thing is and then I can do it, but I have to believe what it is. The other alternative is that the kindest thing possible is to have a candid conversation with this person, this technician and say, “This is what I'm seeing and this is what I'm feeling. And this is these behaviors are being received and we need to make changes to go forward. And you need to know that this is not sustainable and I really like you and I really want you to be here.” It's not kind for me to not tell you if we have come to that point. I always say people should not be surprised when they get let go and if they are surprised then someone did not communicate to them, how their behaviors were being perceived and again that's broad generalities, but you get the point. It's not kind for me to not say anything to this person as relationships burn around her.

Stephanie:

Well, and I think the reason that so many managers, myself included because I've been here, sit in this place of indecision and don't do anything is because we're looking at it from a personal perspective. And so most of the time it's feeling like you don't have the tools and you're not equipped to do the kind thing and have that conversation, because there's some part of our brains that is still looking at it as, “Kelly is being a pain in my butt and this about her as a person. And I don't know how to tell her that I'm going to let her go because her pessimistic attitude is the problem.” It is still personal and so we do nothing because we know we shouldn't just fire people because we have a personal problem with them.

Stephanie:

And we don't feel like we have the tools to be able to address it from an appropriate place. And so I think this is a good place to take a quick break and then talk about how do we actually have that conversation, because that is definitely a learned skill to be able to address behavioral challenges like this.

Andy:

Let's do it.

Stephanie:

Hey, everybody it's Stephanie, I just have to break in here for one second and make sure that you know about an awesome opportunity that is coming up, that we do not want you to miss. We are back. We are back in person in April in Greenville. That's right, our flagship conference in Greenville, South Carolina is happening in person for the first time in three years and we are so, so excited to be back with you guys. It is happening April 21st to the 23rd. So put that on your calendar now and if you head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/april, you can find all of the details as we sort them out.

Stephanie:

You will get to see the schedule as soon as we have it, you will get to see information on the speakers. We've got an event FAQ. You can shop our Uncharted gear. We've got safety information, if you're wondering about being back in person. So if this sounds like something you would be interested in, head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/april and reserve your spot. This event will sell out. We cannot wait to see you. So don't wait to put this on your calendar. You do have to be an Uncharted member to attend. You can find out all the details at the website. We'll see you soon, now back to the podcast.

Stephanie:

Okay. So part of the challenge goes back to what we talked in the beginning, which is that you have to get out of the personal head space because you can't discipline Kelly for being a pessimist.

Andy:

Right.

Stephanie:

From an HR perspective that's the wrong thing to do, right?

Andy:

Yep. Totally. “Hey, I'm going to punish you for being who you are.” That's not who she is, that's not who she is.

Stephanie:

That's the point.

Andy:

That's the point. Yes.

Stephanie:

So the question is if we're asking ourselves what is kind, then we have to flip back to what you mentioned in the very beginning, which is that this has to be about the behavior-

Andy:

Yes.

Stephanie:

… that she is exhibiting because the action steps we have to take here are all about having conversation, documenting those conversations, doing some coaching and to your point, it's going to be ongoing. This is a behavior that has been exhibited more than once. If you have somebody who makes a mistake the first time, it's really easy to have a conversation with them and say, “Hey, I noticed this thing didn't go so well, let's talk about this.” And that conversation is not the problem. The problem is for so many of us as managers, the behavior has repeated itself two, thee, 200 times.

Stephanie:

And now we're like crap. Now we have to have the conversation. We don't know where to start because we haven't had any of the conversations along the way, or the conversations have been too few and far between. And so again, to your point that you made at the very beginning of the episode, we're very much locked into this head space of it has to be all or nothing. And now they've exhibited this behavior 200 times and so now I have to discipline them for this. No, that's not the first conversation. If you've not had any of those conversations, or if they've been too few and far between, then you start fresh and you got to start over and you got to say, “Hey, this is something I noticed and we have to talk about this.”

Andy:

Yep. I agree. A 100%. So here's how not knowing a lot of the specifics. Here's how this generally sets up when it goes well. So the first thing is the cup is already broken, we're not aiming for perfection, we're aiming for improvement and continued improvement.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Andy:

Rome wasn't built in a day, but we've gotten to this point, we can get back out of it, so that's it. Second thing is to your point and you're spot on, you're starting at the beginning. If you have not managed this condition, this behavior up to this point and it's not bad, just take a deep breath, shake it out and start from the beginning. Like, “Okay. We're starting the process. Here we go.” So get in that head space.

Andy:

I'm going to bring this person in and when I do, I want to speak in specifics. Now I'm starting fresh, which means I'm not going to go back and say, “I need to talk to you about 137 things, they start back in May 2016. Jenna said, ‘I think we're going to get a new printer.' And you said, ‘This place is never getting a new printer, these guys don't do anything they say.' That's what I want to start with 2017 May remember that, that was not okay and you shouldn't have said that.” No, no, let it all go. Let it all go. Start fresh. But that said, we need to speak about the behavior and we need to speak in specifics. I cannot bring them in and I come in and say, “Kelly, you are a pessimist.” And you know what Kelly's going to say?

Stephanie:

“No, I'm not.”

Andy:

“No, I'm not. You're always saying negative things about me.” That's what Kelly's going to say. It doesn't fly. So you got to speak in specifics.

Stephanie:

Not going to end well.

Andy:

It's not going to end well. In that small snippet, you just saw this conversation is on fire going down, it's not going anywhere productive. All right. So what do you do? You got to give her some slack and let her make her own mistakes again and then we need to talk in specifics. And so the way that I often set this up, remember when we start to have these conversations come from a place of compassion. I like Kelly. The manager likes Kelly. She says she's great. And most of us are used to us. We like her. That's great. That's good. It's a whole heck of a lot easier to work with someone who likes you and who you like.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Andy:

And so we're using relationships, coaching happens inside of relationships and relationships are built on trust. And so if I like this person, trust this person, I'm going to have a much better experience trying to coach them. And again, this is not about managing Kelly in a military style or making her miserable or making her feel like she's not wanted or liked. It's about the fact that I care about her and I'm seeing these problems, and they're going to be career limiting for her and they're causing problems for people around her. And so we're going to have that, have that conversation. So speak on specifics, “Hey, yesterday, I heard this thing happened.” Or, “I was there yesterday. And I heard when you said this to Shauna. Why did you say that? What happened?” And that's honestly how I like to start this conversation is I don't want to call her in and lecture.

Andy:

I'm going to call her in and say, “I heard this. What happened? Why did you say that?” And people say, “Well, you know she said it, just write her up.” Seek first to understand, “What is going on here?” Because here's the thing, I need Kelly to figure out why she said what she said. And if Kelly figures out why she said what she said, then she can choose to not say it again next time. But if she doesn't know why she said what she said, she's going to have a hard time not repeating that behavior because she didn't know where it comes from. And so I'm going to try to help her find that, but also I want to understand what's going on with her? Is there something I can support her in? Is there something else going on behind the scenes?

Andy:

I want to have a productive conversation. It's not a gotcha conversation. It's not one where I'm like, “Aha, I have figured you out and now you are pinned down and you can't make any more mistakes.” I said, “No, she's a human being and I like her and I want to support her.” So ask first of all, “What happened?” And then I'm going to listen and then I'm going to talk in consequences. I'm going to say, “Hey, when you say things like this, this is what the outcome is. This is what other people take away from that. This is what I have to deal with because people come in here crying.” And again, if she doesn't understand the consequences of her behavior she's not going to change them. And so, “Again, I'm not trying to be nasty, but he needs to understand when you do this, this is the outcome, this is what it causes.” And then I want to talk about what the consequences are for her. And when I do that, I'm not talking about punishments, “And that's why you're getting written up.”

Stephanie:

Right.

Andy:

I'm talking about where she's go and what the long term consequences are. One of the keys in coaching and the difference in coaching, the coaching difference from feedback is intense, these are future facing conversations, “When we have conversations like this, it affects how the team works with you. And I'm worried in the future you're not going to get opportunities or you're not going to be able to get to do the things that you want, or there's going to be doors that would open that you're not going to be able to go through. Hey, I would like to see you in more of a leadership role in the coming years, but that's not going to be a door that's going to be open, if we continue to have this exact behaviors, if people tend to feel this way about you and I want to be you and I want you to be successful here.”

Andy:

You hear me leaning into coming in this from a point of compassion and trying to help this person and so talk in the future tense, “This is how you can develop. This is where you can go. This is my concern for you going forward.” I'm not talking about the past and the 137 times she's done this before.

Stephanie:

Right.

Andy:

I'm talking about what happened here recently and what it means going forward. And then what I'm going to do after we've talked about this is we're going to talk about what she can do next time, because she can't change last time. It'd be nice if she apologized, but she didn't have to. The big thing for me is don't do it again and I can only change the future. And so I'm going to talk to her and say, “What are we going to do differently next time? Can you promise me that you'll do that differently next time?”

Andy:

And hopefully she's going to agree and say yes or she's going to say, “This is what I'm going to do.” I'm not going to tell her what to do differently, I need her to decide what she's going to do differently. I need her to own this behavior. And say, “Hey, what can you do differently when you have these communications.” And let her propose the solution, so it'll be her solution. And then the last part is I'm going to have to start holding her accountable, which means when she goes out and the next day, the same thing happens again, I'm going to have to say something to her.

Andy:

And I'm going to have to say, “Hey, we just talked about this yesterday and I heard that this is what went down. What happened?” I'm going to repeat the process. But ultimately what happens is not, “Hey, you're pessimistic and we're going to have to let you go.” Or, “You're pessimistic and you're getting written up.” What's going to have to happen is, “We have had many the meetings about this behavior and you say you're going to make changes to it and you're not making changes to it. And now I'm concerned about your truthfulness, about your willingness to change. The fact that you keep saying you're going to do these things and then you don't do them. And that's why we get written up. And those are the reasons that we're not going to be able to stay on, because you can't continue to say you're going to do things and then not do them.”

Andy:

And it's a different conversation, but that difference is important. And hopefully we don't get to that, but it does set us up for a better coaching position. The last thing I'm going to say, I think a lot of people get this wrong. It's really hard to police culture. Meaning it's hard to jump on this person, Kelly, every time she makes a mistake and pull her into the office. And guys that's not how any of us really want to be trained. We want to be trained with positive reinforcement. And so just as much as you look for Kelly to be pessimistic, look for Kelly to be optimistic and positive and just like training a new puppy, as soon as they do the behavior you want, jump in with praise and celebration and treats and rewards.

Andy:

Anyone who's heard me talk about feedback knows that I say this, people are simple animals. I don't care how many degrees you are, I'm not saying this because this is a technician. I would do it to the doctors, this is how you train doctors, is you set the expectation, you look for the positive behavior and you reward the heck out of it.

Stephanie:

Yeah, no, I think that that is so true. And I think one of the things about rewarding that's really important, is it doesn't have to be in front of everybody. It doesn't have to be a giant over the top thing, but it's those small little things, “Hey, I noticed when it was really crazy today that you really kept you're cool and you didn't make any negative comments. And I just want you to know that I really appreciate that.”

Andy:

Yeah.

Stephanie:

Like it doesn't have to be a big thing, but that little bit of reward because change is hard. And when you hear, “Yes, you're doing this well,” that is so important and it makes such a difference. And I think it's really easy as a manager when you are having to have hard conversations with somebody and you're looking at something from a disciplinary perspective, it's so easy to get sucked into the cycle of only looking for the negative.

Stephanie:

And so part of this goes back onto the manager, that it is your job to look at it not in, “When is the next time am I going to catch Kelly in one of these behaviors, so I have to write her up again. But how much work is Kelly putting into this? When can I celebrate her successes?” And you might have to look really hard for some of them in the beginning. But the return on investment when you look at it from the perspective of positive reinforcement, versus the negative, “Now, I have to discipline you,” is so huge on both sides.

Andy:

Yeah. I agree. I think that's just, I don't know, that's just training in positive reinforcement. And I guess here's the other thing think of about how you would feel, when was the last time that your boss came up or someone in your clinic came up and said, “Hey, I saw that you did this specific thing and it was great. And I just really want to thank you for doing that, it was really well done.” It's probably embarrassingly rare that it happens, it's hard to do as a manager, you have to prioritize it.

Stephanie:

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this was a good one.

Andy:

I think so. Like I said, I like these a lot. I hope for our manager friend, I hope it gave some perspective. It doesn't sound like this is a straightforward black or white fire this person or deal with this bad behavior forever. There's definitely a middle path and we're going to try that first. And if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out, but at least we've tried a coaching solution. And if this person really is the great tech that you say that she is, you may have some real success with coaching her. People have to want it, they have to want to get better. But honestly, most of us want to learn and we want to improve and we want to be more popular with the people we work with and we want to be better at our job. We want to feel like we're developing and we're going to get more opportunities. Those aren't rare traits, most people have those so just lean into them.

Stephanie:

I love it. This is a good one. Have a great week everybody.

Andy:

Yeah everybody, take care of yourselves.

Stephanie:

Well, gang that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast, and as always this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website, the address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag. Or you can email us at podcasts@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.

What's This Episode About?

This week on the podcast, Dr. Roark and Stephanie tackle an email from the mailbag. We received a note from a multi-site Medical Director who is feeling very frustrated with the way that their practice managers are running staff meetings. Meetings happen once a month and seem to have become a two-hour laundry list of things to lecture the team about, sometimes the same topics over and over. Our medical director is wishing that the staff meetings would become something that the team not only wants to have but look forward to leading! Let’s get into this.

You can listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

Upcoming Events

April 21-23: The Uncharted Veterinary Conference, LIVE in Greenville, SC

The Uncharted Conference in April is our flagship event. In celebration of 5 years serving the veterinary profession, we have shifted the focus of this conference inward. You’re not looking to grow your business outwardly – you’re looking for ways to build resiliency and reignite your love for your career. During this 3-day adventure in beautiful Greenville, South Carolina, you’ll be discussing topics like hiring for culture, creating the story that becomes your path, and building smoother, more simple ways to practice. This event is open to members only. Registration for this conference closes on April 1, 2022. DO NOT MISS OUT – Snag your spot today.

A UVC MEMBERSHIP IS YOUR KEY TO FINALLY GETTING THINGS DONE AND GROWING YOUR VETERINARY PRACTICE.

---

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Andy and I got a great email in the mail bag that we are going to dive into this week and I love it, it is definitely one of those episodes where both of us are probably going to soapbox a little bit. We got an email about staff meetings, and making meetings worth it. And it comes to us from a multi-site medical director who is really struggling with the fact that all of their practice managers at each location that they're in charge of seem to have a similar problem.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Which is that the team meetings seem to be a drag, they are boring, they are two hours filled with checklists and to dos, and things, and information that needs to be disseminated to the team, but this medical director is really struggling with feeling like this could be more fun. This could be way more engaging and they want to know how do you decide what's most important to discuss because every time it gets close to a meeting, it feels like there's hours worth of things on the agenda. How do you keep everybody on track during the meetings? And most importantly, how do they turn the meetings into something that the team actually wants to participate in, and is in fact taking ownership of and making their own? Let's get into this one, shall we?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And now the Uncharted Podcast.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And we are back it's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie. Where does the time go Goss?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Where does the time go? How's it going Andy?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Good gosh, here in the middle of the holiday rush that is what I am asking myself. I can't get anything done.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

I know.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

No one is available and then I'm not available, and there's emergency elementary school drama practices being called that I'm like, “I'm sorry, that's not a thing.” And then it is a thing and I'm like that's ridiculous. And there I am at 2:55 PM on a weekday in the parking lot of the elementary school, and I'm like if you said to me, these people have so much power over you I would've been like [inaudible 00:02:16] no they don't. Elementary it's an elective program. Let me tell you Stephanie Goss, these people have me by the ear lobe and they take me where I'm supposed to be.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Oh, that's funny.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

I am a captain of industry, I publish podcasts that thousands and thousands of people listen to every week and they're, “Shut up and be at 2:55.”

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Shut up and be here on time.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And I'm like, “Okay, I'll be there.”

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Oh, that's funny. It is a very, very busy time of year, and the time is flying. We just got back, I just got back from being in Greenville with you for Practice Owner Summit, and I sat down at my computer this morning and looked at the calendar and went, holy crap. I haven't finished Christmas shopping. And it's funny because I started Christmas shopping like in August thinking, oh, all of this stuff is going to take forever to get here this year, and I did start ordering stuff early, but I left the bulk of the big things that I hadn't done yet. And I sat down this morning, I went, oh my God, is Amazon going to get things here in time?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Yeah.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And had that moment of panic. So yeah, the time is flying, I can't believe the new year is almost here. And when we were in Greenville and we were saying goodbye to everybody, and normally when we leave it is very sad because it's like, oh, it's going to be like six months until we see each other again. And it was very exciting and also scary that I was having conversations with people and I was like, “Oh, I'll see you next month in Orlando.” And it tripped my brain out because I'm like, wait, are we actually going? Are we traveling again next month? It's crazy how fast the time is flying.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Oh yeah, I agree. I heard reports from the Fetch Conference in San Diego, and I like that conference.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah, me too.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

I really like San Diego and they got a great venue and the people are really good. Adam Christman is-

STEPHANIE GOSS:

That's where we met for the first time.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Say what?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

I said that's where we met for the first time.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

It is, it is where we met first. See, I knew I had a warm nostalgia feeling there. Yeah, Adam Christmas, Adam Christmas, Adam Christman over at Fetch he's doing a real good job and he should be really proud. So they're doing good work, but I heard great stuff from that conference and it's like, oh yeah, it's good to have people that I know saying, “Hey, we got back together and it was really good.” And then we were at the Practice Owner Summit and people were like yeah, this is great to be back together. And I'm going, oh, it's happening?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

It's actually happening.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah. I'm excited, I'm very excited for everything that to 2020 has in store for us, 2022, I mean, has in store for us. Let's not repeat 2020.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

It's still 2019 for a lot of us.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

That's kind of how I feel. Time has ceased to exist. Anyways-

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Pick up where we left off.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Speaking of being very, very busy, we had a great question from the mail bag about making time for something, and I thought this one would be a great one for you and I to get into. So we had a message from a medical director who is overseeing a couple of location practices, and they are really struggling to plan team meetings with their practice manager. Because they said there's always so much to go over during meetings, and they are having them currently two hours once a month, and they are struggling with fitting all of the things in during those meetings. And so what it winds up being is discussing the same things over and over again; communication, training, client problems, time and attendance issues, scheduling tips, et cetera.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Like the list that people sometimes have in their clinic of we need to talk about this at the next team meeting, and then it winds up being a whole laundry list of stuff that could have potentially been an email. I know we're going to talk about that, but it's like the to do-ey kind of stuff and not actually working on the business. And this medical director is really struggling because they're like, how do we make this more or impactful first of all? And how do I get the managers to lead the meetings in a way that makes it feel like it's the team is leading the meeting, and not so much a we're the leaders and we're going to tell you what we want and how we want it. Which is how that checklist of things that need to be talked about comes across, and so they were asking for help with how do I do this?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Yeah. No this is a great question, there is a lot of stuff here. I think we're going to have to pick and choose how we navigate this because there's so much stuff here, but I think we can do a good job of helping this person. I think that's how I'm going to set it up is let's help this person as much as we can in the amount of time that we have.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Love it.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And then this is always fertile ground, and you and I talk a lot about this in a lot of other places, in a lot other ways so we will ultimately make our way across all of it, but today let's do the most good in the time that we have

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Love it. So-

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Which is the takeaway from the question overall, is how do you do the most good in the amount of time that you have? There's a comment that I reference a lot when we talk about staff training, we talk about staff retention and people leaving, and it's got two veterinarians and one of them says to the other one, “What if we train these people and they leave?” And the other one says, “What if we don't train them and they stay?” That feels very much like this problem with meetings.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Sure.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Where it's we take so much time meeting with people and we don't have time for it, and the other vet would say something like, we don't have time not to meet with these people because we're so busy.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

That is going to need some editing, that's not exactly the flow, but hopefully that makes this like I can feel that way, right?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

The initial thing is what if we train these people and they leave? And it's sort of like we just don't have time to have a meeting, and I'm like, that's the same, that's the same thinking it's the same mentality where on first blush you go, “I totally understand why someone would feel this way.”

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Sure.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

It really is one of those things. Meetings have a terrible reputation, right?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Everyone's like death by meeting, and we always have meetings, and I can tell you that Os our little team has grown to a half dozen of us and is growing beyond that. I am looking at our calendars and going, man, we have a lot of meetings. We have a lot of meetings. At the same time I go, this is what it means to run a team of this many people. And I look at our metrics and I say, oh, we're crushing it.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

We are doing so much work. Our work output is going way up, even though I feel like we're doing lots and lots of meetings. The reason is because we know what the point of meetings is, and we don't do crappy stupid meetings. And so we can come back to what that means and how it means.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

So anyway, all of that to say death by meeting is a thing, I think meetings have a bad reputation, and the idea that we are going to run teams that busy beyond their capacity without meetings or with few meetings, I think that's false thinking.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Team meetings like this fall very much into that category that you and I get into when we're wrestling with practice leaders and medical directors and stuff, and they're like, “I don't have time to have one-on-one conversations.” And we're like, “You don't have time to not have one-on-one conversations.” It's same thing and that's where I see this conversation going is I got news for you, less meetings, more efficient meetings probably not the answer in this case.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

I would 100% agree, and I probably would start off by saying that this is a subject that I'm passionate about, and I will probably soapbox a few times during this podcast episode, but I will tell you guys as listeners I have been in this doctor's shoes in terms of feeling why are we even doing this? Because it feels so wildly inefficient and ineffective. And I hated meetings, and I was like let's just not have any. And I will tell you that there is a book that I read at that point in my career that changed my perspective and ultimately the outcome of it, and learning how to have better meetings changed my life from a career perspective.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And that sounds crazy dramatic, but totally true, and I am a 100% in the camp of you don't have time not to not work on your business and am really passionate. I mean, we just talked for a week with practice owners about how do we make the time to work on the business? And meetings is a big piece of that, but I think that it's a struggle for people to get their heads there because to your point, meetings have such a bad reputation. And so I think the head space piece of it when tackling this is really, really important.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Are you not going to mention the name of it? You're like, “I read a book that changed my life. I'm not going to tell you what it is.”

STEPHANIE GOSS:

I'm going to get there, but we got to talk about the head space first.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Oh, okay good because there's people losing their minds right now with pen and paper, they've already got audible open on their phone, and you're like, “No, I'm not going to tell you that no.” The reality is meetings have a purpose.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And you cannot fit 10 pounds of content into a three pound bag, and that's what this sounds like because we're meeting once every four of six to eight weeks and surprisingly, we don't have enough time. And because we don't have enough time, everyone is frustrating and so you know what we do, we do less frequent meetings because they're so frustrating. And I'm like oh, that's a bad spiral to get into.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Oh yeah.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

That's like saying I fight with my spouse, so I'm talking to my spouse less frequently, you know? I get it and it makes sense at a very base level, but we all can see this is not how we get where we want to be.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

I agree. And this is a really common space to get to especially right now, right? We are overwhelmed, there is so much happening in everyone's practice, and the idea of how do I take time off of the calendar because you can't squeeze it around other things. I mean, when I talk to people who are like, “Oh, we meet quarterly or we meet twice a year as a whole team.” The reason that that is the case is usually because they're like I don't know where else to make this fit, and this is the only time in the schedule. It's such a hassle to get everybody here, this is how we approach it.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And then it becomes really easy to get overwhelmed because you're trying to cram three months worth of stuff that has happened to your point, you're cramming your 10 pounds into a three pound bag and it is so overwhelming. And so I think I totally see why you get to this place, because when you think, okay, these meetings you're sitting through it and you're suffering, you're suffering through it, and at the end of the meeting you're like, “That was so damn ineffective, we did nothing. That was a waste of my time.” Why would you want to do it more frequently?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

I can totally understand where that mind frame comes from now, is my mind frame is like screw this, we're spending so much time and so much energy and from the practice owner perspective, so much money to get everybody here to close the doors or to have relief come in to cover the phones, or however you're managing it at your practice. That is an investment financially in the team, and when it feels very wildly ineffective, it is very easy to push back and be like no, let's cut this off of the list, but I think that that is very much the wrong way to approach it.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Oh yeah. I agree. I think there's two different things there, right? There's meeting failure because of not having enough time to do what you need to do. There's meeting failure because you have a poor plan or you have failed to plan. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail. And then there's the part of a lack of engagement, meaning we don't pull the agenda off, we have the agenda and it's a great agenda, but people don't engage. And I can tell you buddy, you and me as professional lecturers and speakers when you're talking to an audience that's not engaged, it's Sisyphus pushing the boulder up the mountain only to have it roll back down. Sisyphus is a guy, he pushes a boulder up a mountain and that's it, that's what I was trying to get at. Holiday brain. So anyway it's brutal, and all three of those things are different reasons that meetings fail and most of us dabble in all three of those frustrations.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah, totally.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

So let's get into the head space here.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Okay.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

So how do we fix this? So we're looking at it, we've got these challenges, where we're infrequent staff meetings how do we get everything done? Where do we go from here? And so for me with head space the first thing we have to do is unlock this problem. Because when I'm looking at what our writers sent to us, this person is locked into the idea of okay, I have one meeting every four weeks and I have X amount of content and it's too much content for that meeting and so people are getting frustrated. How do I say the content in a different way so that it gets into this format that we have? Or how do I add another meeting, and then how do I break this stuff apart?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

But it's very, very easy to say my meetings aren't working, and so the solution must be centered on meetings and meetings themselves. And the first thing of head space I want to do is unlock that thinking, right? I want to open this up and give us a lot of options, because there are so many options for how we handle this and it's easy to get myopic and that's a trap, right? That's inside the box thinking, so how do we unlock it so we can think outside the box? The way that I have had success in unlocking it is to say, what's the point? The point is not to have a staff meeting.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Right.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And there's so many people who are like yes, the point is to have a staff meeting.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Right, you're just checking that box.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

I read in a book that we should have staff meetings, I went to a lecture and some management guru said every other week we need to have a staff meeting, and once a month at minimum. And that's what they said, and now I am required to do this once a month because that is what I've been told I have to do. And I'm like, that's nonsense. What is the point?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And so this is where I start to people a little bit, and I'll say, “Is the point of a staff meeting to share information?” And they will say. “Yes.” And I will say, “No, there are so many ways to share information and a staff meeting is one of them, but if you are just passively giving information to other people, there are more efficient, more effective ways to do that.”

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Like an email or Slack, or Workplace from Facebook, whatever the thing is that you're on, or Post-its in the break room, or printed off letters that go into their mail. I mean, there's a million things if you think outside the box, right?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

It's videos of you talking to a camera and saying the things and then sending it out. If there's no back and forth, if this is not a collaborative thing, it shouldn't be a meeting it should be an email, and we've all been to meetings where we're like, “That should have been an email.”

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And so if it's just to give the staff information, that's a poor use of meeting time which is super valuable. Is it just to ask questions? Probably not. Again, same thing as if I just need to know, “Hey, straight up I have a question, I need a response from you.” Again, there's other ways to do that, I can use our team communications, I can pull my key opinion leaders in, I can do a survey of three or four people instead of the whole staff and just say, “Hey, I'm trying to get a feel for where people's heads are.” I mean, there's a lot of things that I can do that don't take meeting time where I can get my questions answered, right?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Is it to get consensus? Yeah, now we're getting somewhere. Is it to show transparency and say that we're open to feedback, to make people feel heard, to make them feel like they have autonomy and agency and that management cares what the workers think.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Right.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

That they're not just cogs in the machine, and that's a big part of this. Getting emails with directives makes you feel like a cog in the machine, so the big things for me is okay, what is required or what requires a meeting? And if you do that, 80% of the thing that I see in staff come off meetings come off the list.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah, for sure. I agree with that a 100%, and I think the way that I now approach it is I would say your number one rule for yourself is to ask yourself that question can I share this for information with my team any other way besides the meeting? And if the answer is yes, then it probably is not worth having it as a meeting. Now, I would say that sometimes you need to share information and most people are well, but I'm sharing important information and it needs to be personal. You guys, we live in the current millennia, there are so many other ways that you can make it personal without it just being a faceless email.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

You can record a video for your team, you can have them have a short meeting with their department and have a leader deliver that information, you can break it up into a bunch of different ways. And I think this is where to your earlier point Andy, it's very easy for us to get stuck in the box and think that this is the only way we can use this tool. And so I would say tool number one is to ask yourself the question that you did Andy, which is what is the point? And then when you know what the point is, ask yourself can I deliver this information any other way? And if the answer is yes, probably a meeting is not the best way to deliver it.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Yeah. I mean, think about the alternatives, right? So here's the next part of the head space, right? So we've sat down and we're like, okay, why a meeting? And what requires a meeting? So here's a list of things I have to do, what of these things requires a meeting? And then the next question is what are the alternatives to the meetings? And you and I have already mentioned a number of them, right? There's email, there's the communication platforms like Slack and Workplace and things like that, there's one-on-ones with your team leads.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Do you need to get everybody to gather, or can you get your head techs together and have a talk with them and then say, “Hey, pass this down in your rounds.” And people are like, oh, no rounds. Yes, rounds or whatever ways that the team leads, that your head tech communicate with your other techs. Is that effective? And if this is like yes, this is a technician thing, and we need to advance this idea, this program, we need to get feedback, whatever can I have one-on-ones? Or can I gather my head technicians together and have a meeting of just the four of us?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And we all talk about it and hammer everything out, and then they go forth and carry the message and make sure that the other techs know what's going on. That's a huge deal, and most of the default is, oh, I'm going to just tell all the techs at once and I'm going to do it at our staff meeting. This is just one example of how you get the word out. Can I have a doctor meeting? Can I talk to the medical directors and have them communicate this to the other doctors in a doctor meeting? It's a lot easier to have smaller meetings than it is to everybody together, it just is.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

One-on-ones to your champions if you will, it's a really effective alternative. Video messages as you said, that's a great way for me saying, “Hey guys, here's a thing, and I'm going to send it to you. And in this video, I'm going to ask you a question and I want everybody to respond to the question and send me an email with the answer to the question, whatever.” But just things like that to try to get people to engage and make sure that people have signed off on the video or whatever. But they can watch it on their own time on demand, they can come in at the start of their shift everybody watches the video, just let people know, but then it's not gathering everybody together.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And it's asymmetric, they can do it again, they should get paid for it, they should be on the clock, it should be a work thing, but I can let them know. And the last thing is you said are the mini meetings, which are like hey, can we just pull the CSRs together and do this? Can we just pull the techs together? Can we just pull the doctors together? And a lot of times that's an efficiency that makes a lot of sense, and again, it minimizes what we have to do when we get the whole team together because that should be really very valuable time.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah I agree with that, and I think that those are great ways to approach it. And again, you guys it doesn't have to be this huge orchestrated thing, and I know that we have some people listening who are like but then I have to record a video and I have to edit it and… No, no, it doesn't have to be big and fancy, and it also doesn't have to be awkward. Think about like when you're Face Timing or video chatting with somebody, you're seeing their face, you're capturing the emotion and you're not face to face. And it's thinking in that perspective and our friend, Stacy Santi is the one who got me turned onto using a product called Loom in my practice a few years ago.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And she started using it with her team, and she was just like when I used to have to send an email, but I wanted them to see my face I started doing this with my team and it was a game changer. It's a free app and you literally just use your webcam to record your face, and I just sit there and would tell them, okay, hey guys, here's this thing and present the message with the same emotion and the same them being able to see my face and my body language that I would in a team meeting, but now we're not having a meeting. And now I took that thing that would've taken 10 minutes or five minutes out of the meeting, and I sent it to them to watch.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And it doesn't have to be like big important stuff either, it can be a hey guys I wanted to tell you all that I was thinking about you this weekend. I'm so excited about our holiday party coming up, don't forget that it's on this day and time, make sure it's on your calendar. Can't wait to see you, right? It's about making things personal, and I think that that's what a lot of us by default use our team meetings for, for a really long, it's all of that stuff that I want to say because I want to say it to their faces. And I think we can limit ourselves in terms of how we think outside the box because we think it has to be this big production, and that's not what we're talking about. They're really, really simple ways to capture that energy and excitement and pass it on to the team.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

I would push that even harder, and so this goes right back to my thing of what is the point of this? Why exactly are we doing this? I'm sorry, if you are like I'm going to make a video because I want to impress my staff with the level of polish of my video editing skills to make them think that I am much more handsome than I am in real life. Like got to look good, I'm going to need some foundation, all right? Get the glare off my nose, gotta make them think that they work for a top shelf organization, that's all lunacy.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Right.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

None of that stuff is the reason that you're doing this, and honestly it's counterproductive.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

If I was an employee and my boss was like here's a highly polished video of me asking you to please remember to clock out at the end of the day, I would be like what is this nonsense? I'd be like this is why I make the wage that I make because you have a video editing thing to do. The point of the video is not to impress them, honestly, it's to humanize yourself to them. That is the benefit of the video over the email, and so filming it on your phone is not just equally good, it's probably better because it's you saying, “Hey guys, I wanted you to hear this from me. This is the unpolished truth, I'm not editing this because this is not a script, it's just me telling you the truth and just trying to be open.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

So you understand, you hear it from me, and you hear why I'm doing what I'm doing or hear why this decision was made.” That's it, and so honestly it's amazing how much people think that the point is to make something that's polished and professional. And it's like no, the point is to humanize yourself and have them see you as a real person talking to them, and that's what we're going for with the video. And so if you take that mentality, doing the types of videos that we're talking about it'll get a whole lot easier and less stressful.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Totally. So from a head space perspective, I think the three things that we covered are super important, right? So get out of the head space of meetings have a bad reputation, they can be very effective and very useful, and you have to plan smartly for them. Looking at it from the perspective of what is the point of this? Why are we doing this meeting? And to that end limiting things that really only need to be delivered in a meeting format, the things where we're getting the team feeling excited, where we're getting them feeling seen and heard, and really it's a collaborative process.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

That stuff stays on the meeting schedule, and we look at leaning into alternatives for all of the stuff that can come off the meeting schedule now. So reminding everybody, “Hey guys, you have been doing a really bad job of clocking out, I've been fixing lots of time card mistakes. I need you to start to do this thing.” It's amazing to me how often that kind of stuff is on meeting agendas, and that is the first kind of thing that should come off the list because there's about 16 other ways that you could deliver that message to a team in your practice. So is there anything else that you can think of from a head space perspective, or should we dive into how do we actually attack this?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

The last thing I'll say about a head space perspective, right? Is when we go the meetings and we're trying to figure out what to do, it's in line with thinking outside the box, but it's more about thinking what is possible. It's easy to go in and say, “This is too much and we have these meeting and we don't have enough time.” And that's a very closed mindset. Really, it was funny I heard some of the Uncharted practice owners talking months ago and we were talking about rising wages of support staff and these people were going, “How do I pay for this? I want to keep my staff and I want to be competitive and I'm just trying to make these numbers work.”

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And one of our practice owners said, “We have to shift our mindset not from what's going to happen, but to how do we do this? And really just think about how do we make this happen because it's required.” And I thought that was really powerful, the idea and shift in mindset to all right how do we make this happen? As opposed to, oh my gosh, I can't believe this is happening and this is the pinch that we're in. I think it's the same thing with the meetings, I think shifting it to, how do we make this happen? I think that's really the mindset we need to get into.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Is not a scarcity, not a limited mentality of, there's not enough time, there's enough time, but okay let's look at the things we need to accomplish and how do we make this happen? Let's get creative and I think that is a fun head space, I think it's a rewarding head space, but I think that that is a requirement if we're going to be able to move things around and make this really go.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

I agree. I love it. Okay. Let's take a quick break and then come back and talk about how do we actually do this thing and make them more productive?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Hey everybody, it's Stephanie. I just have to break in here for one second and make sure that you know about an awesome opportunity that is coming up that we do not want you to miss. We are back, we are back in person in April in Greenville. That's right, our flagship conference in Greenville, South Carolina is happening in person for the first time in three years, and we are so, so excited to be back with you guys. It is happening April 21st to the 23rd, so put that on your calendar now. And if you head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/April, you can find all of the details as we sort them out.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

You will get to see the schedule as soon as we have it, you will get to see information on the speakers, we've got an event FAQ, you can shop our uncharted gear, we've got safety information if you're wondering about being back in person. So if this sounds like something you would be interested in, head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/April and reserve your spot. This event will sell out, we cannot wait to see you so don't wait to put this on your calendar. You do have to be an Uncharted member to attend. You can find out all the details at the website. We'll see you soon. Now, back to the podcast.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

All right. Let's get into what we're actually going to do with this.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Okay.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

You ready?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

We've beat around the bush a bit here, but let's get into some action steps.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Okay. So before we start action steps I'll say that if you are struggling with getting into a good mindset about meetings, I'm going to tell you guys the book now. So if you are really struggling with that and you're I don't know how to like meetings, there's a book that I read, it's called Death by Meeting it's by Patrick Lencioni and I'll put it in the show notes for you guys. But it changed my mindset so radically about I was in that space of hating meeting like why are we doing them? And I really struggled with how do I make that switch to where you and I are going next, which is the action steps.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And reading it changed my perspective entirely, and made it so much easier for me to flip my head space perspective and think about how do I actually do this thing? So if that's you and you're struggling check it out, it's a quick and easy read. You can find it in the business section at your local bookstore, but it's totally worth reading because getting into the action steps and the starting, especially if you're living in that place of I just want to cancel all of the meetings because I just hate this, we're not getting anything done, it really helped me make that mindset shift.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Yup. Let me go ahead with action steps. I'm going to put a simple little thing on the table that sometimes doesn't occur to people, virtual attendance is a thing.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And so is recording the meeting for people who can't make it. And I'll just say it up front because the amount of headaches I have seen with people going, “But people are on different shifts and they don't want to come in on their day off.” And I go, “I wouldn't want to come in on my day off either.”

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

I totally get it. It's a vortex for me, I go in there and then four hours go by.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

I get it and so hey, it's not that hard to set up a laptop in the back of the room and put Zoom on it and send people a link. That's not a problem, get the nice Zoom that lets you be on for more than 40 minutes and just do it.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes. Absolutely.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Whatever your jam is, there's Google Hangouts, whatever works for you, but it should be easy for people to jump on from home and at least see what's going on and participate as needed. So think about virtual meetings just as far as people jumping in. Honestly, even just getting things done in some cases just a good old virtual meeting where people don't have to drive in, that means a lot so I like that. And then also recordings, because I see people who are like, “We've got three people that can't make it.”

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Record it and those three people can see it. It's not ideal obviously, I want everybody to be there bright eyed, bushy tailed, ready to engage. This is the real world and it's real practicalities, and sometimes we have to get done the best that we can. Sometimes good enough is good enough.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah. So I think that's two steps in one. So step number one is stop thinking inside the box of everyone has to be at this meeting, and if everyone isn't here we can't hold this meeting. That's step number one, and step number two that can help you with that, but also can just be for other is to record the meetings. You have a record, you can go back to it, it makes it easier to take notes and make sure you didn't miss anything, and also it helps you eliminate that thinking of everyone has to be there. And then the step 1(c) I guess for me is look, if people are spending their time dealing with your meetings, whether it's in person or recorded, you have to pay them.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

So quit thinking that we can have people just remote in from home and we're not going to pay them for their time, or we're not going to make it worth their while. You need to be very aware of what your state rules are as well, because if you ask them to participate and work, you may have to pay them for a certain period of time. So this is time that is so well worth it to me, and it's an investment and there's no going around it. Investing in your team by having them participate in the meetings is one of the best investments that you could make as a practice leader I think, and just make sure that you're paying them for their time.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Let me tell you, and we should look at it that way which again, goes back to my point of what do we need to accomplish here? What is the point? Because these are not cheap, I think a lot of the staff doesn't think about the fact it's like oh, everyone is here and they're all getting paid and no clients are coming in the building. And I think I can tell you as a business owner that exact thought has driven me up the wall before, I'm like, “This is so expensive and there is no revenue coming out of this.” It is the cost of doing business, it is an absolute requirement to have these meetings and get everyone on the same page.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And if you who don't believe it, you are in for a long time of frustration before you figure out that this was worth the investment. What's funny with staff meetings is, and this is why they're so much of a problem with this, this exact question is because staff meetings are that thing that when you don't have them and you don't have them things just to break, and there just starts to be friction and tension.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Sure.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

But there's no one who bursts into your office and says, “I'm quitting because we haven't had a staff meeting in forever.” No one says that, there's never this direct pain where you're like a lack of staff meetings or a lack of good staff meetings are the reason we're having these problems. That never happens, all that happens is when you start doing staff meetings and you do them well, like when you start doing one-on-ones and you do them well. Over time and it's not the first time you do it and everything is fixed, it is over time your life gets better.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And your business runs more smoothly, and your practice runs more smoothly, and you are more profitable, but it never comes back to your staff meetings are the reason for it. I've talked to so many people who have gotten on the train and they have done it and their practices have done well, and they've fallen off the wagon and they've seen those tensions creep back in. And they will say to you, I know it's because we're not doing a good job with staff meetings. And that brings me to the next head space point that I want to make, and I say this just because of our conversation at the very beginning about this is holiday season when we're recording this and things are bonkers, be kind to yourself.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

There's always going to be times when it's easier to do these sorts of things, and at times when it's harder to do these sorts of things. And if you're hearing this in the holiday season and you're like, “We need to have a staff meeting immediately.” I would say, oh, whoa, whoa, this might not be the time right here right now to pull everyone together. It might be the time that we start to make a plan and we figure out how we're going to start moving in this direction, and getting people back on board and starting to work a program that works for us.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah. I love it. So to your point, I think where we have to start action steps wise is begin with the end in mind, and ask ourselves what is the point? Why are we having this meeting? And then prioritizing what are we going to do within the context of the meeting, right?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Yeah. So first thing is remove the things that can be done in other ways, things that can be emails or multiple emails or whatever. Just remove the things that can be done in other ways, remove the things that are information that are passive, that are non-emotional, right? So take this off and then let's prioritize the things that are left. And the way that we prioritize, it will be different depending on where you are in your business and what's going on. If you're up to your neck and you're like we're drowning then you should still have a staff meeting, and your staff meeting should be all about how do we not drown?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

That should be it, anything that is focused on us handling our caseload without just being swallowed up that should all make the list. And what are we going to do about birthday parties now that the cake store we like is not in business, you know what? We can just talk about it, that's one of our key opinions we'll find another way to sort that out. That might not make the list. And right now there's people slamming their hands on their desk going, “You don't understand the cake store's importance in this. Everybody's going to quit if we don't find a comparable cake store.”

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Anyway enough silliness, it sounds simple, people get it wrong all the time, they're like, “We need to do announcements.” I'm like, “No, you don't you're buried, cut to the chase.” I know everyone is tired, I know everyone's working hard, I am so proud of you, I want to help you. Let's go ahead and start to brainstorm ways that we can make our workload lighter. What can we do to make our job easier so that we are not so exhausted all the time? Everyone take a couple minutes, write down on a piece of paper ideas that you have just think about your job and how you might make things easier or what could be made easier for you, and take a few minutes to write that down.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And we come back, we're going to discuss in small groups what we think might be a good idea, or what are some small things that we can do, and what's some big things that we can do and boom, and go. And now we're off and running in a meeting, cut to the chase, talk about the things that matter. So what do you need? What is mission critical for the team to move forward? What empowers others to move forward independently? It's amazing how often as a leader or a manager, I will carry these things around on my to do list and I'm like, I don't know and this is not all that important and blah, blah, blah. And it's something where if I just met with Stephanie and talked to her, then I could delegate this her and she would go and do it and it would move forward and it would be off my list.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

But until I talk to her she's unaware and this thing just sits there, and so anything where you say, “Aha! I'll have a team meeting and I will hand these things off, and then they will disappear from my plate and other people will be able to implement them, and our team is a whole will move forward.” That is a good thing. Anything where I am holding up the process that should get prioritized so that I can push this thing off my two do to list and get it rolling forward through the efforts of others, right?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Things that are likely to spark emotions should get prioritized. People misuse email all the time, and I see people who are having these heated exchanges and they're writing paragraphs and paragraphs long emails explaining themselves because they're clearly fired up. And I go forget it, if you're writing more than three paragraphs this is not an email. If this is something where you are feeling emotions or the other person is feeling emotions get off of email, that's not an email conversation. It's too easy to misinterpret tone and things like that, which is why we end up explaining ourselves and it's becomes this massive stupid thing that's multiple pages that no one's going to read, and the whole thing is just a nightmare.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

If it's something that people are going to be emotional about at all, it needs to be done face to face. It may not need to be in a whole team meeting, but at least needs to be face to face and so that stuff gets prioritized. And then the last thing is what's the best return on investment? When you're looking at this, and our writer says, “We've got so much to do.” And I'd say, “All right, what's your 80/20?” Meaning what is the 20% of things that will give you 80% of your rewards? Let's do the things that are either urgent and important, or that are important, let's not do the things that are just urgent or that aren't even urgent, they're neither urgent nor important. So where do you get the biggest return on investment?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And I think that's the hard part is because for people who don't like meetings or people who don't understand why you're having meetings. And a lot of times unfortunately, leaders in our practice fall into one of those two categories and from the email that we got, I suspect that our medical director here is struggling because there are some practice managers within their team that fall into one of those two categories. They either don't understand why you're having it, or they are not excited about having the meeting, and so the hard part is that they tend to drive it not from the place of investment and return on investment, but from that place of I'm checking the box. And these are just things that I feel like we have to do, and so I'm going to talk about it at the meeting. And so I think that is a really important thing is why doing this?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Yeah.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Why are we doing this?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And be ruthless.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Be ruthless.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Be cold and calculating not to your people, to your agenda. But when you are looking at the meeting, you need to be ruthless, is this what we are here for yes or no? If the answer is no, no. If we start to go down side paths and tangents, we say, “Hey guys, it's a great point. We really do not have time to explore this very much today. I'm going to put it on our parking lot, I'm going to add it to the agenda for the future. I will meet with the people who brought this up and we can talk through it a little bit after the meeting is over in the coming days so I can process it.” Just do not let this meeting go away, pull it back, be nice, but be firm and just say guys, we have very limited time and I really want to make sure we hit the things that are maximumly important for all of us. And so this is very important it's very good, but we need to put a pin in this.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah. And I think that there's two things there that I would like to unpack a little bit when we get there, because I think it's important to talk about how set up the meetings and I think that's where we're going next. But when it comes to the agenda and also to the team and during the meeting, I agree with you, you have to be ruthless and I have some suggestions for how do we get whoever's leading the meeting, whether it's the practice manager or the medical director or just a team lead, whoever is running your meetings how to get them thinking about how do I be a little ruthless?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

How do I take things off the list? Because the reality is you made the point earlier about the work always expands to fill the time, and it's the same with a meeting. You could go into a meeting with a plan to talk about three things, and if you let it 95 different things could come up from your team. And half of them, more than half of them probably were not worth discussing at a meeting, and it's so easy to get sidetracked.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

It's so easy. The best meetings are ones where you go in and you think there's no way I have enough content to fill this time, we're going to be done in 20 minutes. That's a great meeting because you're not going to be done in 20 minutes, it's going to be a jampacked thing. So not only do you have to go in with the idea of, oh, there's no way I have enough content to fill this time, you also have to be ruthless on top of. Because a lot of people are like, “We've got plenty of time.” I assure you that you do not, and if you are slack about it then you will have no time, and you won't even get to number three on your list of three things.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

It's ridiculous, you got to be ruthless.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

So how do we prep?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Yeah, I was going to say the next thing is not putting together the agenda, the next thing is prep, right? So pre-wiring is a huge thing, I don't to go into meetings if I do not know what is going to happen. I do not like to put forward ideas if I have no idea how people are going to feel about them. Ideally, I want to go into a meeting and know exactly how everybody feels, and I want to know what people like and what people don't like. And I want to know who is going to be for it, and who's going to be against it, and who doesn't care, and what it would take to get the people who are against it to just not care?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And what it would take to the people who don't care to think this is a good thing? I want to know all those things as best I can, and that's pre-wiring so start the meeting before the start of the meeting. Start to talk to the people who are going to be involved, encourage your team to prepare so that you have greater efficiency at the meeting, right? If things they can be thinking about, if there's things that they can be working on, if there's things they can bring with them to the meeting so that they're looking on it, let them know that, right? Going from zero to 60 at the start of the meeting is really hard, if you say to people, “Meeting tomorrow, here are three questions you need to have thought about when you come.”

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Bang, bang and bang, you're going to get better meetings. And yes, some people are not going to read them, and yes, some people are going to totally ignore them, but some people are going to read them and those people are going to get the ball rolling, and they're going to be more prepared and we can move forward. So encourage prep before the meetings, have the conversations with your people ahead of time so you know what's coming and this is not, I'm going to ask a question and I have no idea what's going to happen. That's how we end up getting derailed because someone will say, “I hate this thing with a burning passion.” And no one will want to respond to that and you're blindsided by it, and you don't have a good response to the thing that they said because this is news to you, that stuff just derails meeting so fast.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah. Part of-

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Get your-

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Oh, go ahead.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

I was just going to say get your key opinion leaders on board, right? So this is the last thing I would say in the prep is every practice has got key opinion leaders, they are non-positional leaders, meaning they may not have a title. Some of them do have a title, of course, but they may not have a title, they're just the technician that everybody looks up to, or they are just the CSR who's got the big personality that guides others along or sets the tone. Don't be surprised by those people, if you can recruit those people in one-on-one conversations before you have the meeting and ask them for their help in getting conversation going at the staff meeting, again, these are all shortcuts that gets you to engaged meetings faster.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah. I love it. Part of the prep for me and because it relates to the agenda, it for me is what are we going to talk about? And what I would say to this medical director is if your practice managers are leading this meeting, have them write their agenda and then review it. Okay, if there's something on the list about the team holiday party, I want to know what are we talking about relating to the team holiday party? Are we getting a poll to talk about where we're going? Are we talking about budget? What is it? And I think a lot of times too many of us make the mistake of letting the agenda be way too broad, and so part of the planning and the prep for me is writing an agenda and then refining the agenda.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Because part of it is looking at the time constraint that we have for this meeting, and getting a sense of how long are these things going to take us? Because when it comes to running effective meetings, part of it has to be sticking to the agenda and staying on time, and so one of the things that I would ask myself as a manger and if I was the medical director and my manager was running the meeting is what is going on this agenda? And how much time do you think that we need to accomplish and feel like this is resolved and we can cross it off of the agenda? And get them thinking about that ahead of time, and have some back and forth. So me that's part of the pre-wiring is some conversation from a leadership level perspective of what are we doing?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Why are we doing it? And how much time do we think that this is going to take? Because I think you have to look at the whole agenda very holistically and say, “Okay, we now have six things on this list. It's probably going to take us an hour to get through are the first three, so we might need to take three things off the list or restructure what we're talking about in this first meeting, because there's no way that we're going to get through all six things.” Stop setting yourself up to fail before you start. That is one of the biggest flaws for all of us with meetings is that we shoot ourselves in the foot before we even get started by putting way too much stuff on the list, and not having a plan for dealing with how do we get through that list? And also what do we do when things come up that don't pertain to that list?

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Yeah, I completely agree. One of the simple tricks that is super helpful, I like to have some clock times picked out, meaning let's say I have three things that we're going to do in this meeting. So let's say, I know it's going to take a few minutes this to get people in and get them sat down, I want to be on item number two by 25 after, and I want to be on item three by 40 minutes after. And those will be the numbers that I'll have in my head, is we are off of this at this time. The reason that I say that is because a lot of people will say, “Item number one is going to be 15 minutes, item number two is going to be 15 minutes, item number three is going to be 15 minutes and then we'll have 50 minutes for questions.”

DR. ANDY ROARK:

No, you won't. No you won't because it will take time for people to come in, and people will want to talk more about this and that. And the other thing is you will forget what time you started and you will say to yourself, we're on item number one and it's 25 minutes after, and you're but I don't think we started, we definitely did not start at the top of the hour. And you lie to yourself and then you look around and your 15 minutes have gone out the window. You've got to have some clock times where you look up and say, at this time I need to be moving to the next thing.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

I like it. And then I think the other that is super helpful tool wise is that as you get started and as you're focusing on making your meetings more effective, the person who is trying to run the meeting should not be the person who is also keeping track of time. That should be a separate person whose sole job is to focus on to your point Andy, if by 11:25 we want to be on agenda item number two, someone who's not trying to herd the cats and direct the flow and the conversation needs to be the one to keep tabs on the clock. Or if you're running a timer or a stopwatch that has to be a separate person to help make that most effective, because it's way too easy to get lost in the chaos when you're trying to do all of the things.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And that's how so many of us set up our meetings is okay, the practice leader, that was my job for a long time as practice manager you're going to lead the meetings, and I thought I had to do all the things. Keep track of the clock, take the notes, lead the meeting, and my meetings were an absolute disaster for years because I was trying to do all of the things. And so there are some very specific jobs that you can set up and get the whole team to help support and make it go much more efficiently and effectively.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Yeah so love it. Delegating jobs like that I love it, super important. I'll give you another trick is to give those jobs to the employees that tend to check out, or that are distracted, or the ones who can't stay off of their phone. And you can be like, “Hey person on your phone, you're going to be the note taker.” And now they are taking notes.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), they're engaged.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And say, I'm going to collect these notes and I really appreciate you having good notes. “Hey, person on your phone you're going to be the timekeeper, and you're going to let us know at these times.” And put some stress on them, put some pressure on them where they're like oh man, I better pay attention because this is a thing. And if they don't do it, then we're going to talk to them after the meeting and be like, “Hey, what happened? I asked you to do this thing and you left me hanging there.” Again, it's just a nice way honestly to draw some of those people back in or people that you want to engage with bring them into the meeting and give them a role, and that is a way to just pull those people into what you're doing.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah. I think the last like big chunk is, as we mentioned, I think you have to be ruthless when it comes to staying on track and on time. And so from an agenda perspective, I would say that you probably could get through a fraction of what you actually think you can get through. And so being ruthless with what stays on the agenda and what are you actually going to try and talk about, I think is really important. And one of the things that was most helpful to me, because you and I talked in the beginning about if we're eliminating all of the at busy work stuff from our meetings, and we're having meetings to talk about things that make the team feel seen and heard.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

One of the most important pieces of that is creating a parking lot or a dumping ground where you put the things that are said, or that are brought up that need to be circled back to. Because if you let things come up and you don't follow up and come back to those things, that is the quickest way to make the team feel like well, I spoke up in a meeting and then nothing happened with it so nobody listens to me, nobody cares, right? So in order to stay on time, there is going to have to be moments where you say, “I think that we need to talk about this and we don't have time to talk about that today.”

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And I will tell you that the Yoda level trick for me has become to ask my team, is this new thing more important than this old thing that you guys said you wanted to talk about? And I only use that when I don't have my own agenda. Sometimes as the practice leader there are things that you have to get done and have to talk to the team about, and sometimes there is no choice and things have to stay on the parking lot list whether I like it or whether the team likes it or not. Because I have to have some hard conversations with the team.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

However, if it's the kind of team meeting where we're talking about something that the team brought up and it's a problem, we're having a client service problem repeatedly and we're trying to brainstorm how do we fix this problem? If something new comes up and the team feels really into it, and the timekeeper has called, “Hey, we're at time,” one of the Yoda level tricks that I have started to use with my team is to ask them, okay, we're at time, do you want to table the next piece of the meeting that you guys said we needed to talk about to talk about this new thing? Or are we okay as a group with putting this new thing on the parking lot list and we'll put it at the top of next meeting's agenda, right?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

This is where getting their buy-in and having them actively engage in making the thing their own is so, so important. And so a parking lot list for those of you guys who are what is she talking about? Is really just a list where you are writing down all of the things that come up that are not a part of your agenda that you need to talk about, that need further small group discussion, that need input from your practice owner or somebody who's not there that day. It's anything that can't get addressed in that moment in time during your meeting, and you're just making a list.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And then the most important part about the parking lot is you figure out how are we going to come back to this? So at the end of every meeting you need to take some time to say, this is when and how we're going to address every item on this parking lot. And then put an action plan so that the things get dealt with before everybody breaks up and everybody knows what the plan is moving forward.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

I like it. I think that's good. The last thing I would say is, and we bring this up every now and then when we get into leadership meetings, I think a lot of people feel the stress or the pressure to have an answer, or to have a response, or to have a plan, or to commit to something when the team gives it to you.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

It is always fine to say something like this is really good stuff, I need time to process it. I'm going to follow up outside this meeting with some more questions and that's it. And put that pin in it and just step away. So I think that's a good, and it's a good way to stay on time too. This is a great discussion, I want to get through the things on our agenda. I have heard a lot from you guys, this has giving a lot of ideas, a lot of processing. I'm going to be following up with some of you guys and asking some more questions. Thanks for having the conversation, let's move on to the next thing.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And remember, if your why is to make people feel heard, and to see how the team is doing, and to get their buy-in, you can accomplish those things and still step away and say, this is always great. I heard what you said, I took that away, we're out of time we need to move on. And yup, you may not have come to a a 100% uniform consensus today, but you moved the ball forward, you got the discussion going, you communicated the information, you got the feedback, you made it feel collaborative, and you made people feel heard. Just take the win, take the win and go on.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And now the big win is can you stay on schedule and get through as many things as you can on your list as possible? And if you came in with an agenda and you get through your agenda, you should take some time, you should have a bath and some champagne. That's a big win, people don't give that enough credit for the win that it is.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And I think that that is applicable on the flip side as well, sometimes stuff comes up that is your team might need some time to process, or during your pre-wiring you discovered information that has yet to have been brought up in the meeting. That has happened to me a lot, where I know something is coming, but nobody has had the guts to say it yet and so I will say, “You know what? Okay, we're going to pause this here, I would love everybody to think about this over the next week or whatever.” And then if there are any remaining opinions before the leadership team discusses this further or whatever your next move is, invite them to give you that feedback privately or in a follow up meeting.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Because sometimes we all just need to process and think, or especially if you have people on your team who are working on their emotions, or they're the ones who tend to have big opinions, like if I've been told, “Hey, you have a lot of strong opinions and we need the opportunity for other people to talk in the meetings.” I'm not saying that I've ever been that team member before, then I might be really trying to sit on my hands and bite my tongue and let other people talk. And so having the opportunity to follow up and say, “Everybody think about this, and then we're going to circle back to it,” can be just as an effective tool for your team as it is for you.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

It's also quite possible that you had things on your agenda that you said, does this need to be involved in the meeting? And the answer was, yes, this is a meeting. And then you had the conversation, you didn't get to resolution, but it may no longer need to be in the meeting. It may have been you did the meeting part, and now this can be an email, or now this can be a small group meeting, or now this can just go to the front desk and we can talk up to them and get consensus, because that's where this is going to happen.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

And so just because you didn't reach ultimate resolution, one of the things I've seen people do is they just keep things on their meeting, on their meeting agenda for the next time and you go, did you do the meeting part? If you did the meeting part, we may be able to do this another way and keep the ball rolling and not take up time in the next meeting.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yes.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Stephanie that's all I got. You got anything else?

STEPHANIE GOSS:

You just sparked me, the very last thing we talked at the beginning about what is the point of this? And if we could disseminate this information in another way, we need to look at alternatives. The other question that I would ask myself when I'm asking does this need to be a meeting? Does everyone need to be involved in this discussion? And we didn't really talk about that, but that is such an important question because if you have stuff on your whole team meetings that's really only pertains to part of your team, it doesn't need to be a part of the whole staff meeting. Especially if you're struggling to get everybody together, that is another question to ask ourselves on a regular basis.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

And to your point that you were just making Andy, if you've had the discussion now it might be able to be a CSR team meeting to come up with a resolution. Like we've talked out the client service problem, everyone's weighed in and given their opinions, and now I'm going to let the CSR team and their team leader figure this out and come up with a solution to present back to the whole team at the next team meeting. But that subwork can happen in smaller groups, and I think that that's a trick that a lot of times we miss because we think, well, we have everybody all together so we'll just talk about these things that really only pertain to one group.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

Yeah. Great points Stephanie and thanks for talking this through with me.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Yeah. This is a good one. Have a great week guys.

DR. ANDY ROARK:

See you guys.

STEPHANIE GOSS:

Well, again that's wrap on another episode of the podcast, and as always this was so fun to dive into the mail bag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mail bag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast, or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mail bag at the website, the address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.