What's This Episode About?
This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are tackling a mailbag letter from a soon-to-be veterinary technician. Our soon-to-be tech is about to begin their program externship experiences and is looking for a little guidance on how to choose a practice that feels like the right fit for them. They are asking themselves (and us) “How do I know if it’s a place I should stay away from?”. They shared that they have procedures/processes that feel ethically right and wrong to them to help guide the medicine they are looking for. And they want to know what kind of signposts they can use to help guide the “soft” stuff – whether people in the clinic actually like each other. Or whether they love or hate their jobs. How to tell a toxic environment from a good one and most importantly – how do I decide what feels like a good fit for me? Whether you are facing an externship or just looking for your next position, Dr. Roark and Stephanie share some of their favorite bits of perspective on interviewing as well as choosing a position. Let’s get into this…
You can listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Stephanie:
Hey, everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are diving into a great question from the mailbag. We got a letter from a vet tech student who's about to begin their externships, and they are wondering, “How do I pick the right clinic for me?” And they don't mean from a medicine perspective, they have some idea of things that they want, or maybe don't want in a practice when it comes to the medicine. But what they're talking about is, “How do I tell if the people at a hospital actually get along and enjoy working at that location and/or together?”
Stephanie:
All of this tough stuff about avoiding toxic work environments, because they hear that talked about a lot in vet tech groups, and they are wondering, how do they avoid it for themselves? Andy and I have some ideas about how to approach the interviewing process that we think would be great, whether you're a vet student who's about to be looking for their first job or just someone in general who's interviewing and is wondering, “What do I need to do as the person who's interviewing to try and figure this stuff out?” Let's get into it, shall we?
Speaker 2:
And now the Uncharted Podcast.
Andy:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and Stephanie “Keep On Hoping Cake By The Ocean” Goss.
Stephanie:
That is one of the most nonsensical songs, and yet it's like an ear worm. I cannot help but sing it-
Andy:
Oh, I love it.
Stephanie:
… and get happy when I hear it.
Andy:
Yeah. I like the, “Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah” part. That's the thing.
Stephanie:
So great.
Andy:
That's it. When people look good at 2020s and like, “What was music?” There was a lot of yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah's, stuff like that. My daughters are into those songs, and so I listen to a lot of Levitating by Dua Lipa. There's also yeah-yeah's in Levitating. Anyway, that's a music update from the Roark house.
Stephanie:
How's it going, Andy Roark?
Andy:
Oh man. It's good. It's pretty darn good. How are things with you?
Stephanie:
Good, good. We're recording this in the middle of December, so it's craziness and the kids are getting antsy to wind down school and get a little bit of a break, and we're getting ready to start gymnastic season, which is very exciting in the Goss household.
Andy:
Yeah. Starting a new season during the holiday seems like a great idea. Those are some serious high level planners coming together to make that happen.
Stephanie:
Yes, we did.
Andy:
That's me throwing shade on the local gymnastics program. Sorry about that. That just slipped out. You could tell I'm not handling-
Stephanie:
He's throwing shade at me because I'm the one who coordinated that.
Andy:
You coordinated it. You're like, “Let's kick this off December 22nd. Everybody good? Good. Let's send that out.” My wife is traveling, and so it's just me and the kids, which again, shout out to single parents everywhere, I don't know how you do it. But it's me plus kids plus holiday season. I'll take down the person who puts the kickoff date on the 22nd, which is you.
Stephanie:
Yeah. Things are really good. Getting ready, the kids are excited we're going to go… I've been gone. I've been in Greenville with you for the last week and half. So I am back and the kids are chomping at the bit to go get a tree and make garland start decorating and turning it… As always, they're hoping for a white Christmas. So the energy level is high over here. How are things with you guys?
Andy:
They're pretty good. My kids' drama class goes today, and so they're doing their stuff, and it was very encouraging for them. But I also had the thought this morning, I was like, “I'm taking time off of work for this.” And so no pressure, but-
Stephanie:
No pressure but make this an Oscar-worthy performance, please.
Andy:
… if I don't cry, I'm going to be disappointed. Dad's a very busy man, and I made time on my schedule for you, and so I want you to bring the drama. That's not true. That's terrible. I would never think that. That's not what I thought this morning.
Stephanie:
Speaking of drama, we have a question from the mailbag about how to avoid drama, kind of. We got a great submission from a vet tech student who sent us an email because they are about halfway through their program and they are about to start their first externship. The program that they're in has two… They have to do two separate externships at two different locations, which I think is wonderful because we all know that every vet clinic is run differently, and so getting some perspective is great.
Stephanie:
This veterinary technician student is wondering, “When I start applying for my externships, how do I know if it is a hospital or a clinic that I should stay away from? And conversely, how do I know if it really is a good fit for me?” And they said, “I know that there are certain things that I don't agree with. Like I wouldn't want to work in a practice that did declaws or ear crops because those are old deal breakers for me from an ethical level.” And they also said the another big red flag for them would be like convenience euthanasia.
Stephanie:
So, they feel like they have an ethical foundation from the level of care. But beyond that, they are wondering, “How do I make decisions about whether it would be a good fit in terms of the general work environment, how the team gets along with each other?” I would probably say the level of medicine. There might be strong things from an ethical standpoint perspective that seem like deal breakers, but what about the other things as somebody is trying to figure out what is important to them?
Stephanie:
And they were saying, “I've heard a lot of discussion in different veterinary groups about toxic work environments, and I definitely want to avoid that if all possible.” So they were asking, are there ways to tell whether this feels like it would be a good fit for me and whether the team actually gets along?
Andy:
All right. I like this question.
Stephanie:
Me too.
Andy:
So let's go ahead and start with some head space. So this is just for anyone who's looking for a job. And so we'll talk about this technician, but I just want to talk about anyone who's looking for a job. I think we can speak in that broad sweeping sense, and I think it would be really useful. So let's do that. Headspace for me, the first thing to do is get into an abundance mentality. I see a lot of people who are like, “I don't want to screw this up. I don't want to work in a terrible place. I don't want to get taken advantage of.”
Andy:
And I go, “Obviously, those things are true. At the same time, I think you are going to be happier and going to do a better job of interviewing if you go in with an open heart and an open mind, and you say, ‘Is this going to be a great opportunity for me? Am I going to get to grow here? Is this going to be challenging? Is it going to be interesting?' I want to find a great place. I want to find a place that's going to really let me discover myself and discover my skills and spread my wings.”
Andy:
And that may sound, I don't know, it may sound sort of flighty, but I really do think that you can either go into a job search thinking, “I don't want to get taken advantage of, I don't want to get screwed over,” or you can go in and think, “Hey, this is an opportunity for me to do new things and to be challenged and, I don't know, to find something exciting for me to do with my time.” And I think if you take that second view, you'll enjoy the search more. And also, I find that it really helps me picture myself there and, I don't know, just end up with the job that's going to let me grow.
Andy:
As opposed to like, “This job seemed the least like to rip me off”-
Stephanie:
To be painful.
Andy:
“…to take advantage of me.” Yeah. And again, I don't know if that makes a lot of sense to a lot of people, but it's just something that I see a lot as far as people going in.
Stephanie:
No, I think it's really true. I think that when we're looking at finding a position, it's very easy to get on the far ends of the spectrum either way, whether you're looking at it from a time-bound perspective of like, “I have to find the perfect place because how great would it be if my externship became my forever job?” The chances of that happening are like lightning striking. So stop thinking about it like that and then start thinking about it from the perspective of dating.
Stephanie:
There are some people who meet someone when they first start dating in high school and they stay together for the rest of their lives. Those stories are few and far between. The reality is, for most of us, we've got to kiss a lot of frogs to find the prince or princess. So it's about figuring out experience and perspective. And I think that those two things are really, really important when we look at, “How am I going to find a job? Or how am I going to find an externship?” Don't think about it and limit yourself to, this has to be the be-all, end-all.
Stephanie:
The point, the whole point of an extern program is so that you get experience, and so that you can see the very, very concrete true, which is that every vet hospital in the world operates just slightly differently. They're not alike, they're all different, and there's all different shades of the rainbow, and it's worth spending your time to see what those different shades are to be able to give yourself that perspective of what might be the right fit for me long term.
Andy:
My wife and I get together every year. We get together more than that, but specifically for this purpose, we come together for a meeting once a year and we talk about the kids' school. And like many parents, we are stressed out and being like, “Did we put our kids in the right place? Are they in the right school?” Blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, “What if the teacher that they get next year is not a good teacher or the best?” And you can go down these rabbit holes. What was the most comforting thing for me in this phase of my life is getting together with my wife and saying, “How did last year go? Are we going to do another year where we are or are we going to do something different?”
Andy:
And the reason that was super useful is because it takes so much stress off of you of like, “Did we do the perfect right thing for our kids seven years ago when we enrolled them into the first year of elementary school?” And you go, “This is lunacy. You don't have this type of crystal ball insight.” And I'm bringing this up because that freedom should also come to you when you look at your job. And I think one of the reasons that people get this scarcity mentality of, “I can't get taken advantage of,” is because for whatever reason, they're like, “I can't leave. If I'm there, then I'm tied to this place.”
Andy:
And it's like, no, you're not. And if you just go ahead and embrace that, everything else gets so much easier. You are not signing a lifetime contract. You're not in the NBA where you're doing an eight-year deal, that's not happening. All that you are deciding is what you're going to do next. We all know people who took terrible jobs and they survived them, and they left them and they went somewhere else. And honestly, they probably were wiser for the experience and better able to spot those things. Some of the best practice owners that I know were people who had a horrible job and was like, “I learned exactly what it means working at a horrible place and I built a place that was meant to not be that, and it turned out pretty great.”
Andy:
I go, “Yes.” And so I know that's a bit of a philosophical view, but I think it's really important. You are not interviewing for the rest of your life. Our friend who's writing to us is interviewing for the next thing that she or he is going to do. And then they're going to get there and they're going to see what they think, and in a year or so, they're going to look around and say, “Do I want to keep doing this or do I want to go do something else?” And if you just take that mentality, it lowers the stakes to the point that it's not so scary.
Andy:
And I think that allows you to have that abundance mentality of, “What if this is really great?” I like your analogy of a relationship, dating. And I talk a lot about that when I start talking to people about taking a job. Because work relationships are just relationships. And so you're going to go and you're going to do this thing. It's easy to tell yourself stories about what dating is going to be like or what prince charming is going to be like. It's not healthy to go into a relationship being like, “I do not want to get taken advantage of.”
Andy:
That's not a good head space to start a relationship with. It's also not a good head space to go in with rose colored classes like, “Oh, this person, I am determined that they are amazing.” It's also not good to go into a relationship with these ridiculous expectations of what this other person is going to be. It's funny because you look at people, whether they're techs or vets and they come out and they're like, “Well, they're going to practice this kind of medicine and they're going to do this kind of thing. And they're going to offer these kinds of services. And this is what's going to be in the exam rooms.”
Andy:
And it's being like, “I'm going to meet somebody and she's going to be beautiful, but not too beautiful because then I'll be nervous, but she is going to be smart, but not so smart that she's intimidating, but smart enough that we can have really good conversations. She's probably going to volunteer. I don't know, Meals on Wheels, Soup Kitchen, something like that.” And we lay down all these things that this person is going to do. You're laughing.
Stephanie:
It's true.
Andy:
But the analogy is true with vet medicine. And people are like, “Okay, so they're going to do these things and they're going to have… It's going to have at least four vets, so at least four vets. I'd like them to be AHA certified. I'd like for them to have CE opportunities, but not things that I'm required to do, but things that I can do.” That may sound absurd, 100%, I hear people talking and thinking to that level. I like that our person wrote and says, “These are some lines in the sand for me.”
Andy:
And you should have lines in the sand, just like you should have lines in the sand for your dating, where you're like, “These are people that I just fundamentally know it's not going to work for me. This is a moral thing for me, and I'm not going to be with someone who's on the other side of that.” Totally fine. But you want to know what those lines are and then not race to draw a million new lines, just in case. You want to say, “What is truly important?”
Stephanie:
I love what you were saying about the things that you want, because I do think that that's important. I think that all of us probably have some of those lines in the sand things that we can think about. I know I do when it comes to the level of medicine and the way that the team works. Those things for most of us are a very small handful of the things, and I could probably count it on one hand, like my deal breakers. Beyond that, there is a big old list of things that I could sort into would be nice to have, really want to have, kind of a deal breaker, but not 100% a deal breaker, maybe I could figure out how to work a little differently.
Stephanie:
And I think that for me, the most important head space thing, when I think about interviewing whether it's for an externship or for a job, is that this is a relationship, to your point, and this is a two way street. Just like I expect them to interview me and ask question to get to know me and how I might fit in their practice, this is absolutely my chance to interview them. And I feel like so many of us look that gift to us in the mouth and do ourselves a disservice in an interview and not ask enough questions about what you're looking for and what feels right for you.
Stephanie:
And so from a head space perspective, that's my big thing, is, this is a two way street. You should be interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you.
Andy:
This is a real relationship, not an episode of The Bachelor where you're like, “I hope he picks me. The other girls, they're all so pretty, but really, if he gives me the rose, I'm going to… ” No, this is this nonsense. It is a real relationship. Hey, I have things that I'm interested in and things that I would be excited about doing, and I have needs that I need to have met, and I know that you are going to have needs and interest that may line up with mine and they may not, and there'll be some overlap in some areas and not in other areas. But I'm going to clearly communicate to you what's important to me and we're going to have an ongoing dialogue, and we're going to keep this relationship going as long as it works for both of us.
Andy:
And I think that that is the healthiest mindset to go into your job with, is, “Hey, I want to have a good relationship and I be reliable. Also, I have needs that need to be met and I know you do as well, and we're going to work through them together. I'm not going to disappear at the first sign of trouble, but I am going to communicate to you what I need and where I am, and I hope that you'll do the same for me.”
Stephanie:
I would say if you were listening to this and you are in a position where you interview people, whether it's for an externship or jobs in your clinic, that is one of my must-ask questions as an interviewer, is, “When you think about your next work environment, tell me what your deal breakers are.” I want to know what those things are. If I have someone who's interviewing for a job and convenience euthanasia is a deal breaker for them, and my clinic, for the most part, doesn't do convenience euthanasia, except for when something falls into this framework…
Stephanie:
Like a lot of clinics are like, “Look, we don't do convenience euthanasia, but if a pet attacks a child in the home, for example, we might be willing to make an exception to that rule.” All of us have whatever those things are. If I'm interviewing someone and they tell me that that is a deal breaker for them, I want to have the opportunity to explore that further with them during the course of the interview, because the last thing I want is them showing up for their first day and that situation coming up where the exception is going to be made to the rule, and they lose their mind in front of the team or in front of a client, or both because I didn't tell them that at the interview process.
Stephanie:
So that is actually on my list of questions, one of my favorites, is I want to know, “What are some of the deal breakers for you?”
Andy:
I think there's an odd thing that happens in the training in vet medicine, and here's why. Well, I think we have very good training institutions, whether it's vet school or tech school, and they do teach the gold standard of care. I think when you get into actual practice, not all of us get the chance to just live in the gold standard of care. I'm not talking about convenience euthanasia, I'm talking about things like pain control or things like that. And I think that a lot of times when you're educating people, it's nice to live in absolutes. And you say, “This is the best medicine. This is the protocol, and this is the thing.”
Andy:
And so I do think it's a shock for some people sometimes when they come out and go, “Oh, this is not the way we learned in school.” There's a spectrum of that. And we're talking more and more about a spectrum of care, which I think is good. I like that term, I like that we're talking more about that. I always challenge young people and say, “I want you to really think about what the lines in the sand are. What would you be open to learning more about and exploring?” And also, here's the other thing too, just like in relationships, we all grow and we change and we evolve.
Andy:
And there are things like, she mentions ear crops and declaws. When I started in practice 10 years ago, 12 years ago, they were a lot more common than they are today. And a lot of it was just how we were educated and things like that. I got in, I saw some of these procedures done and that's when I realized, “I don't like this.” I had to see it before, I was like, “Oh.” And then the more research comes out and my position solidifies and changes, and I think that's true for a lot of us. So just because you don't say something is a deal breaker at the beginning doesn't mean that your thoughts on it won't evolve.
Andy:
I just say that because I think a lot of people, for whatever reason, they seem to come in and they're like, “I need to decide now that all of these things are what's acceptable to me. And If I don't decide them now, then I can't pick them up later on. I've told them I'm okay with this.” And I go, “That's just not how a relationship works.” At some point you go, “It wasn't a big deal for me when I was 23 years old, but it is a big deal for me now that I'm 30. I'm not with this anymore.”
Andy:
It's not wrong. That's fine. It's all about lowering stakes. The last thing I want to put in people's minds for perspective is to say balance rules the day. And I think that's just good to know, is, the exception to a relationship rule is this, I guess in some ways, when I go into a relationship, it's you and me and we work out these things. I think it's important coming in and interviewing a practice to realize that it's the manager's job or the practice owner's job to balance the needs of the people that they're dealing with, to balance their relationships. So maybe that way is still the same.
Andy:
I know that my needs have to be balanced against the needs of all the other associate doctors, and also against needs of the pet owners, and also against the needs of the practice, and possibly the needs of the corporation. All those things have to come into play. It's just better for me to go in and say, “How do these things get balanced? And what does that look like?” And I'm not going to take it personally if I say, “Hey, this is the type of schedule that I would like to have.” And you go, “Well, I don't know that we can do that for you because we have these other protocols or we've come up with this system to try to be fair to everyone.” I think we should accept that.
Andy:
And just remember that we go in, it's not about what I want and what you want, it really is about, “How do I interface with the balance that this practice has going on?”
Stephanie:
And I think the last thing for me from a headspace perspective is, don't go into an interview thinking that this has to be a marriage proposal. The whole point of an interview is to find out more information. And so this is the opportunity to be in that creative, flexible headspace of asking the questions that are going to give you the information to help you make your decisions. And so to that end, I would say to this student, especially, when you're interviewing, take notes. Make note whether you do it mentally or you actually write the things down. The whole point is, you're trying to gather more information to decide, “Do I want to go on a second date?”
Stephanie:
And if the answer is no, that's okay. I have gone on interviews where before the interview is even over, thought, “This is not the place for me.” And that's okay, there's nothing wrong with that and there's nothing wrong with saying, “Thank you for the opportunity, I don't feel like this is the best fit for me at this time.” Same for the practice. I've interviewed people who I thought you would make an exceptional team member or employee, not at my practice, not at this stage of the game. And so, don't go into it thinking like, “I have to go all in on this one experience.” The whole point is that you're asking the questions to help get you the information to help you make a better decision.
Andy:
Yeah, I agree. Let's take a break and let's get into the action steps to make it happen.
Stephanie:
Sounds good.
Stephanie:
Hey, everybody, it's Stephanie. I just have to break in here for one second and make sure that about an awesome opportunity that is coming up, that we do not want you to miss. We are back. We are back in-person in April in Greenville. That's right, our flagship conference in Greenville, South Carolina is happening in person for the first time in three years, and we are so, so excited to be back with you guys. It is happening April 21st to the 23rd. So put that on your calendar now. And if you head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/april, you can find all of the details as we sort them out.
Stephanie:
You will get to see the schedule as soon as we have it, you will get to see information on the speakers. We've got an event FAQ. You can shop our Uncharted gear. We've got safety information if you're wondering about being back in-person. So if this sounds like something, you would be interested in head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/april and reserve your spot. This event will sell out, we cannot wait to see you. So don't wait to put this on your calendar. You do have to be an Uncharted member to attend. You can find out all the details at the website. We'll see you soon. Now, back to the podcast.
Andy:
All right. Let's start to unpack action steps here for our job seeker. We talked about knowing your deal breakers. That was our first step is, are there things that you are not on board with? Clear is kind, it is better to be up front. I think you made a great point about some people are like, “Pick me, pick me.” They're applying to try to get the job instead of going and interviewing to see if this job is a good fit for them, is this a job that I want to have? The power dynamics are fairly even, actually they may be tipped in the favor of the person of the job seeker, because hey, skilled labor is hard to find.
Andy:
You should go and you should think about what's important to you and you are going to have those ideas in your mind of, what are you up for and what are you not up for?
Stephanie:
Yeah. I think the next thing for me from an action step perspective is that there's so much in veterinary medicine that you can't know until you experience it. And you don't know what you don't know. So you can do the best job possible prepping for what might be the case when you interview someone. And when you come to work and you show up and start working with that team, it may not be what you thought it was or thought it was going to be. And that's okay. And so I think that that's important to me is, you won't know until you actually experience it.
Stephanie:
And sometimes you experience it and you're like, “Yes, and this is even better and now I'm learning about all of these things.” And also sometimes it may not be what you thought it was at all, or those things might come up that you're like, “I didn't know that this was a thing that I needed to think about and now I have this information.” I think that's where a lot of us struggle is feeling like we've committed to something and we've committed to it for the rest of our lives. And to your point, this is just the next step and it is okay to change your mind, whether it's because you don't feel like it's a good fit or maybe the type of now that you're into it, the way that they're doing something medicine wise is a struggle for you.
Stephanie:
And I would say, it doesn't mean you have to, again, it's not all or nothing. If there's something that you didn't know and now you found out, get curious about it and ask them questions and say, “Well, why do you guys do it this way? Why is this your process? Why are you running anesthesia this way? I'd just love to know more.” Because the nice part is for our writer, they're a student, the whole point is that they're supposed to be learning. So take this as an opportunity to get curious and ask the better questions so that either you can continue to make it the best possible experience for yourself where you're at or in your next experience, now you know something that you didn't know before, and you can add it to your list of things to ask about ahead of time.
Andy:
Yep. I agree. Every practices got quirks. There always going to be oddities, there's always these weird things that every team or practice does. You don't know what you don't know and that's okay, you're just trying to make the best choice about what you're going to do next. I think, again, let's go back to our relationship metaphor. If you were dating somebody and they were like, “Hey, we've been on a couple days, this is really not working for me,” wouldn't you rather just say that after two or three dates than to go on and just and just go farther down this road? It's like, “Look, if this is not going to work, I would rather go ahead and know it, or at least know where we stand early on rather than later.”
Andy:
So again, clear is kind, it's not failure to take a job and go, “This is not what I thought it was going to be.” I think you and I did an episode a while back something like, “Why do I feel guilty when I leave?” And it was people who really struggled with the guilt of leaving a practice. And if you're wrestling with that of like, “Hey, I took this job and now it's not what I want anymore. Or it was when I started and now it's not,” check that episode out there. You shouldn't feel guilty. You should just be honest about what you want and what you need and communicate that. And then go on.
Andy:
One of the action steps for me that I put forward, especially given this is someone in tech school, or if we were talking people coming out of vet school, don't buy into the shiny hype. And best medicine is not always the best practice, and it's not always the best practice for you. That is very true. And I think that there's a bias, again, towards we go to vet school, and that's my own experience, you go to vet school and you're in a university setting and you're surrounded by specialists and all of these shiny things. And there's CT scanners and there's an MRI and there's all sorts of different things.
Andy:
And then you go to a practice and the practice that looks most like the vet school that you went to, you think that's the best practice. They have the shiniest widgets and gadgets. And I just want to tell people very clearly that widgets and gadgets do not translate to happiness for you. They don't. There are lots of places I know that are very upscale, they have the best things and they're toxic and you don't want to be there. And they have a huge turnover. It is not a fun, nice place to be. And you look at it and you go, “But surely, they're successful because they have all of these things. They wouldn't be able to have these things if they weren't a great practice.”
Andy:
And I'll say, “I can tell you that is not true in the modern day and age.” And things change, but just don't buy hype of, “If I go here and they have the bells and the whistles and the toys, this is the “best” practice.” And I will tell you, I have been so lucky to work at great practices, and one of my favorite jobs that I really loved was in a dump. It was a dumpy building and it was not nicest bells and whistles, but God, I had fun and I love those people. And it was just, “Oh, it was such a great job.” And again, I've been lucky to have a lot of great jobs, but it does not correlate to the best equipment makes the best place. And I think a lot of people fall for that.
Andy:
So just put that into your mind, you're looking for the thing that makes you feel good and you feel special.
Stephanie:
Well, and I will tell you, I think when you said that about your practice, it made me laugh because I think that's true and I think that when I think about all the different practices that I've worked in and add, even in the shiniest, prettiest, newest facility, there's always something held together with duct tape. And the reality is there is always a building improvement that needs to be done, or literally a piece of equipment that is held together with duct tape. The question for you as someone checking out a practice is, what is that thing or things that are held together with duct tape? And is it okay because it's just cosmetic or is the team literally the thing that is held together with duct tape? And that is because it's toxic AF and that's not where you want to be.
Stephanie:
And so for me, that's what the interview process is really about is recognizing that there's no perfect shining Cinderella, it doesn't happen. Every practice, even the pretty ones have something that's held together with duct tape. And that's for me, why I love that interview process, because it's the opportunity for you to get real and figure out what that is. And I will tell you, if you were a manager or a practice owner and you are interviewing people and you are not being honest about what your duct tape thing is, you're really missing an opportunity to be real because I want people…
Stephanie:
I had a professor when I was taking business classes who taught a class about interviewing. And one of the most important lessons that I learned from him is he said, “I want people to go through a two or three round interview process. And I would far rather have them walk away and say, ‘This is not the right fit for me,' than take a job and have it be under false pretenses.” And that really stuck with me and it changed the way on a fundamental level that I interview because I really truly believe that. I want the interview process to be a chance for me to yes, impress people and talk about the things that we do really well, and also be honest about where our duct date places are.
Stephanie:
It's letting them see with a little bit of vulnerability who we are, and I don't want a student coming in to my hospital for an externship if I don't have a mentorship program that meets their needs. I would rather have a conversation and do the interview and find out what's important to them and say, “I can't offer you that,” than to your point, get more than a in and realize that this is not a fit.
Andy:
Well, yeah. There are two stories off of that. Zappos was famous for offering employees thousands of dollars to leave.
Stephanie:
To not take the job.
Andy:
Yeah. To not take the job. They're like, “You don't have the job? Well, I'll give you X number.” I think it was like four or $5,000. It was a chunk change. And they're like, “We'll give $5,000, if you don't take this job.” And I'm like, “Wow, that's a classic business story,” but that's about being serious about people who want to be there in the fit. The other part of it is, you talk about status symbols and signs of success, the practice owner, who looks at you as a new person coming into interview and says, “You can go anywhere. You can ask anybody anything, make yourself at home. This is what it is.”
Andy:
That's a flex. That's a real flex of being like, “This is what we are, and I'm not going to hide anything from you. I'm proud of the practice that we have.” And it's also enlightenment to say, “I know that there are going to be things that are not going to be the way that you think that they should be done or whatever. I'd rather you just know those now.” And I've totally been on those job interviews where they say, “Look around, make yourself at home, asking questions you want. Talk to me, anybody you want.” And I really think people who don't allow you to do that, I think that should be a flag of like, “Hey, I'm having a real hard time getting away from this manager. He seems to be attached to me wherever I go.”
Andy:
Those are things that I look for. How do you know what the things are, where the duct tape is? There's a couple things for me. One of them is, and I can't believe we haven't really brought this up before now, but reputation. Reputation is important and it is a small profession. And one of the things that I always recommend for people is you should do your homework before you go in. It's like going on a date, if you're going to go on a date with somebody, you know people who know that person. And so maybe asking them what they think before you go on the date, that might be a smart idea. Just say, “What's your impression?”
Andy:
You say, “Well, I'm going to a place and I don't know anybody.” Well, I'd say to you, you know farmer reps, you know food reps, you know suppliers, Jim Patterson, MWI, those guys. Those people are in the practices and they know people and you can go to your own, say he's a [inaudible 00:37:28] rep or Hill's rep or whatever and say, “Hey, I'm moving to this area. I'm looking to this. Do you have a rep in that area who knows the practices?” And they'll generally say yes and you say, “Can I talk to that person?” And they'll generally say, “Yes.” And then you can just say, “Hey, I'm looking at some practices, what do you think?”
Andy:
And they'll obviously be cagey because these are customers, but you may be able to get some insight there, or you can say to them, “Hey, I'm going to this area, are there practices you would really recommend?” And again, just gathering that information is really useful. It is a small profession, you know someone who knows what a reputation is. Again, just like a relationship, it's worth looking into, even if you don't put more weight on it than that. The big things I like to ask when I get there, we'll talk about when you go in, again, I'm looking for duct tape and some things that I use to look for duct tape is I talk to people in the practice and I say, whether they're text or doctors or whatever, I try to talk to everybody and I'll ask them again, “How long have you worked here?”
Andy:
And I say that because I'm looking for staff retention. And if I go to some places and they say three years, two years, one year, six months, three months, I go, “Oh, it's interesting. It's a young staff.” And again, sometimes these things just happen, but it registers with me when I go to a place and I hear seven years, six years, 12 years, nine years, I go, “Oh, you guys hang around here.” And so again, it's not be-all-end-all, but that's the question I like to ask. And again, I ask across the practice because I'm just generally looking for trends, I'm looking for patterns.
Stephanie:
And that's a great example. For me in my practice, most recent practice, that was a great example of a duct tape for us. We live in a military town and I have frequent turnover in my team. Not because there was anything culturally wrong with the team, they loved working and we had frequent turnover. And that was part of the discussion with candidates when they were coming in is, “We have change amongst our team on a regular basis because we are employing military partner, spouses, whatever. And are you someone who is okay with a consistently changing team?” Because that is a piece of duct tape for us, and if someone if they wanted consistency, if they wanted to go to the team where the faces and the people don't change very often, we probably would not be a good fit for them.
Stephanie:
And so that is part of my process is talking about that and talking about how do they adapt to change? How do they like to get to know people on the team? Because the reality is, they're probably going to have to get to know new people because someone's always going to be getting relocated or shipped out. So that's a great example for me of one of those things as a manager, I could have let that be something that I didn't speak to, but it made it better in the long run for me to be honest about that, say this is a real thing.
Andy:
It's like in the movie, 8 Mile when Eminem rapped about himself and all the problems that he had, and then Papa Doc didn't have anything to rap about Eminem with, that's what you did. That's exactly what you did. You're Eminem from 8 Mile. I love it. It all makes sense now. Stephanie's fallen backwards away from the microphone, so I get to talk more.
Stephanie:
Oh God, how do we recover from that?
Andy:
Yeah. We just move on. We just put this down.
Stephanie:
Reel it back in.
Andy:
We just put this down and move on.
Stephanie:
Yeah. Reel it back it.
Andy:
Reel it back it. All right. Another thing we should ask, I like to ask people, what is the best part of working here? What do you like the most about working here? And the reason I ask them that is because then they are much more likely to answer my second question, which is, what is the worst part about working here? What do you like the least? I have found that if I don't let people say what they really love, then they are very hesitant to say what they don't love. Honestly, that's a tainted view anyway. So give me the best part and give me the worst part. And I'll ask people feel like they're treating their employer fairly if they say, “I told you what was great and now I'm telling you my least favorite part.”
Stephanie:
And I would say that question splits into even more so for me with an extern or a student, which is that I also want you to ask, what is the best part of your job? What is the least, what is the thing that you like the least about your job? Because as being an extern and going into the field, trying to become a veterinary technician, you should not only be wanting to know about the company, but here's a great opportunity to pick people's brains and find out the nitty-gritty realities of the actual job itself. And I think that for a lot of us, when we got into the field, we romanticized a little bit what it might be.
Stephanie:
And to your point earlier, Andy, about you go to vet school and you're in this ivory tower medicine, and then you get out into real practice and then you find out, “Oh, maybe this job is a lot different than I actually thought that it was.” And I have experienced that a lot with vet's students is like the reality of day to day in veterinary practice is not necessarily the picture that they had in their head. And so I think that those are two great questions and I would sub-divide it as well, especially if a manager offers you the opportunity to talk to the team, ask them what do they love about their job and also what is the biggest challenge about their job.
Andy:
Yeah. I think that's really good. They're also just a good question to have in your back pocket, and then also I'll be done with the interview questions, but a nice question to have in your back pocket is, “If you were me, what questions would you be asking?” That's just a good one. That's just a good one, just a float to people and just see what they say. I found that people in vet medicine are generally painfully honest to a fault. And that's great. So if you say, “If you're me, what questions do they ask?” And they will say something like, “I might ask about what pain protocols we follow,” if that's a thing for them. Then sure I can ask that question and just see what I think and make my own decision.
Andy:
Anyway, those are some simple questions to help me find duct tape, is just I'm looking for like, what is the downside? And again, there's always duct tape. There just always is.
Stephanie:
There are three other questions that I would ask, two that are culture related and then one specific to being an external or a new student, in particular coming into a practice. So one is, what's the biggest reward of this job, because that's that says a lot, I think, both about the people that you're talking to, like what do they value and where do they get their job satisfaction from? But also in terms of learning about the job itself and also what is the biggest reward working for this company? Why do people feel appreciated? I feel like is the answer that comes out a lot in asking that question.
Stephanie:
And I think that those are two that are really good, in particular, this student who wrote in was asking, how do I spot the toxic environment? Ask them what reward they get working for the company. If they can't think of any really good examples for you, it's probably a sign. If they're working in a really rewarding environment, they should be able to tell you why they feel that way. And then the last thing from a student perspective that I'll say is super, super helpful, if you are new to a position or a role or you're interviewing for something that would be a new position or role for you, is asking, tell me about your onboarding process for this position.
Stephanie:
You want to know what is their training and onboarding process like, are you to get one day with somebody and then you are going to get let loose? What is their expectation for timing and for training? Because as a student extern, that is a huge part of the process. And I will tell you, I don't want to throw some of my fellow a manager's under the bus, but I'm going to, a lot of them will work with schools to have an external program because they are trying to find new employees, which in and of itself is not bad. And a lot of them do not have an actual plan in place to support those team members when they get there.
Stephanie:
And so knowing if you are someone who's like, “I want to try and learn all of the skills and I want to have a buddy and I'm envisioning sitting down at the end of the day and debriefing and getting to ask questions to somebody,” if that's the picture you have in your head, you need to be able to figure out if that is something that this practice is going to be able to offer you or not. And so asking them that wide open question of, “Tell me what your training and onboarding process looks like,” and then drilling down on that, “Well, tell me more, tell me more about that,” to get more information, invaluable question to ask.
Andy:
Yeah. I really like that a lot. I guess the only thing I was going to say was spend time if you can, “Can I shadow? Can I stop back in? Can I come for a visit and just hang around and get to see how things work here?” I always say that to young vets, in this case we got an externship, you've got some good time to be there, but there's nothing as good as just watching a team work and hanging her out and trying to be a wallflower and just watch what happens. But you're looking for culture, you're looking for, how do these people communicate? What's the stress level like here? Are people relaxed? Are they happy? Do they laugh or do they not? Are they uptight? Do people raise their voices to each other? Are they snapping at each other? Things like that.
Andy:
If you can, and generally manager will try to push you away from it, but if you can come on Mondays or Fridays, that's when I like to go, because that's when things are generally pretty stressful. I like seeing at their worst, and if they're worst is not very bad, then I'm pretty happy me about that. That means a lot to me.
Stephanie:
Yes. And I will tell you on the flip side of that, manager friends, I learned to really lean into that towards the end of my career. And I absolutely schedule working interviews for Mondays and Fridays, because if people can see us at the absolute disaster best, then they're going to get a real pick. I don't want them there on the day that is half booked and super slow because yes, they might get to talk to the team more, but they're not going to get a real picture of what the clinic is like. And a lot of times I feel like that's where we do ourselves a disservice as we get people in and we pick a quiet afternoon and then there's nothing really happening and they think, “Oh yeah, this is great.”
Stephanie:
And then they show up to your practice on a double booked Monday morning and they're like, “Oh my God, I can't do this.” Again, this is where you want to convince them not to work there before you actually get invested.
Andy:
Yeah. That makes a ton of sense. It's like an 8 Mile when Eminem has people come to the trailer park to see where he lives and it's like, “Hey, if you can't handle this, then don't come and see me on stage.” And a full circle.
Stephanie:
We've gone full circle. I think that's where we need to leave it.
Andy:
I think we're done. I think the wheels have officially come off.
Stephanie:
Unless you're going to rap a little. All right. I like it. Have a great week everybody.
Andy:
I'm going to lose myself in the music. I'll see you guys next week.
Stephanie:
Well, everybody, that's wrap on another episode of the podcast. Thanks so much for spending your time with us. We truly enjoy spending part of our week with you as always. Andy and I enjoyed getting into this topic. I have a tiny little favor to ask, actually two of them. One is if you can go to wherever you source your podcast from and hit the Review button and leave us a review, we love hearing your feedback and knowing what you think of the podcast. And number two, if you haven't already, hit the Subscribe button. Thanks so much for listening guys. We'll see you soon.
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