This week on the podcast…
This week on the Uncharted Podcast, practice management geek Stephanie Goss invited Dr. Phil Richmond back to the podcast to tackle a personal perspective on burnout together. Dr. Richmond is the Founder of Flourishing Phoenix Veterinary Consultants and a practicing veterinarian. He is an advocate for positive culture and individual, team and organizational psychological health, safety, and wellbeing in veterinary workplaces. Dr. Richmond both leads and is involved in state, national and international projects for the advancement of wellbeing and culture in veterinary medicine. This episode was inspired by a mailbag email but led Stephanie and Phil on a journey through some of the tricks and tips they each have learned while on the winding journey of aiming to become better leaders than the day before. Let's get into this…
You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.
Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to role play on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.
Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
Upcoming Events
Calling all Team Leads – if you are a lead CSR, a lead Technician, a lead Kennel tech – we want you to come connect with your peers and our Uncharted Community! We have a brand new event we want to see your faces at.
Uncharted’s Team Leads Summit is an immersive 1-day virtual event designed to connect team leads and help you tackle the challenges unique to your role in veterinary practice. Kick off the day with an inspiring general session, learn from some of the brightest minds in vet med, and then dive in to gain exactly what you need with a discussion-based format to create game-changing connections for your career. This Summit features interactive workshops and Choose Your Own Adventure sessions, a signature of Uncharted events. Start the day telling us what you need RIGHT NOW, and leave having worked on exactly that.
✨ Sessions on navigating burnout, thriving in veterinary practice, motivating your teams and team training techniques
✨ Small group discussions to cultivate connections with people who understand your role
✨ A day that will make your boss thrilled they gave you a CE budget
✨ Inspiration and a recharge to continue to make waves!
Upcoming events: unchartedvet.com/upcoming-events/
Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. I'm Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, I am joined by one of my favorite people in veterinary medicine. He is a beacon of light and positivity. He is an Uncharted member. He is a colleague. And he is truly a dear, dear personal friend, Dr. Phil Richmond, joins me as my co-host. And we are having a conversation about burnout.
But before you turn the podcast off because you're like, “Not another burnout conversation,” Phil is one of the most positive people that I know, which says a lot because I feel like I'm pretty positive and bubbly. But Phil is truly a beacon of light, and we have a mailbag question that started with addressing burnout in teams, especially in on-call settings.
And as it does, our conversation meandered and we wound up talking about our own experiences with exhaustion and some burnouts in veterinary medicine, and giving some candid stories. But also, really some leadership lessons that we wish that we had learned before we became leaders. So, I had a lot of fun recording this episode. I hope you all enjoy it. And now, let's get into it.
Speaker 2:
And now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Stephanie Goss:
And we're back. It is me, myself, and I. I am here today but I am, sans Andy, but I am instead joined by one of my most favorite human beings on planet Earth, my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Phil Richmond. Hi, Phil.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Hi, Stephanie. And as I like to call myself the Wish app, Andy Roark.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man. So many ways I could respond to that.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
It doesn't really look like or sound like him.
Stephanie Goss:
No, it isn't. It doesn't.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
But, okay.
Stephanie Goss:
This episode is not going to look or sounds like a typical Unchartered Podcast episode in the slightest. There's going to be lots of laughing, probably lots of squirreling. But we are together today because we got a mailbag topic. And we're not actually going to answer the direct question that was asked in the mailbag as I do with you, because when I read it, I was like, “Ooh, I want to have a conversation with Phil about this,” because it involves some bigger themes that relate to you, what you do in veterinary medicine. And I just thought it would be a good chance for you and I to have some good conversation.
And since Andy is on vacation when we're filming this, while the cat is away, the mice will play. So, let's begin and have some fun. So, for our listeners who don't know you, welcome to the podcast. If you have not had the opportunity to interact with or talk to or hear Dr. Phil Richmond's present, you are missing out because you are an amazing human being, and you have a lot of wonderful things that you are sharing with our profession. And we're going to get into by way of the mailbag, get into some of what you're doing.
So, the mailbag topic I got was about a hospital who is a specialty practice there, specialty surgery practice. And by the nature of their work, they have after hours on-call rotations for their team. So, they're taking care of their patients postoperatively. So, they have on-call hours, overnights, and weekends. And so, it is one of those things that is inescapable in some facets of veterinary medicine. On-call has to happen for them to support patients postoperatively. And I totally get that.
And the manager who wrote in was like, “This takes an incredible toll on the team because being on-call is hard.” And they were looking for some tips and tricks that we'll get into in another episode in terms of how do we structure that and support it from a systems perspective. But what interested me in talking with you with the burnout aspect, and because we have big pieces of veterinary medicine and specialty practices in ER practices. And even GP practices that… Particularly, the ones that are more rural and don't have overnight.
There's lots of people in veterinary medicine who can't avoid being on-call. And this manager's point was that, burnout is a real thing and it impacts the team. And so, when I was thinking about it, I was like, “Who better to talk about this with than my friend, Phil?” So, tell us a little bit, Phil, about who you are and why you and I would want to talk about this because it's right up your alley in terms of the work that you're doing in veterinary medicine.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah. Thanks, Steph. And it's just always a pleasure for us to get together and talk. And we just have so many things in common, and I just love being able to share space with you.
Stephanie Goss:
We love your face, friend.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Thank you. And it is. So, I jokingly say, those of us that are working in this field, none of us… I wasn't in vet school fourth year going, “You know what? I cannot wait to work on wellbeing and burnout in the profession.” And I say that like, “This is someone tongue in cheek, but where it is, is that most of us have lived experience or personal story, why it's so important for us.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And so, briefly, I was a new grad. It was about 2008, dating myself a little bit. But I was working, I mean, this is right up this alley. I was working 60, 70, sometimes 80 hours a week. Now, that was self-imposed. I also want to say is that, I was working on my days off at a clinic that I grew up working at. And then, I was picking up emergency shifts on the weekends.
I would come in on my days off to do surgeries that I hadn't done before, which I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't do that because there's some benefit to doing those things. However, even the owner of the practice was like, “Hey, you need to throttle it down.”
Stephanie Goss:
That's a lot.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, that's a lot.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
But some of that stuff was not… It was self-imposed for me. And so, what I found was is that, I got to this point where I had the hallmark signs of burnout are exhaustion, cynicism, and inefficacy. It's just taking us longer to do things. We just can't get through stuff, that type of thing. And I only had one tool in the toolbox, and you and I have shared our stories, but I just had alcohol and substances like, that was it.
And so, add that to all the stresses of veterinary medicine and all of this. And then, getting into burnout. And I really was in a dark place, and I'm going to mention suicidal ideation, but that was where I got. So, what I realized was, is I ended up going to treatment. I got a lot of tools, individual tools that were very helpful for me, and they helped save my life, and helped me love veterinary medicine again.
What I realized though is that, when I went back into practice is that it wasn't the whole story, is that I played a big part in some of that like, I misinterpreted things. And how I viewed situations, that was stressful for me and burned a lot of emotional energy. But even when I do that, there can be external factors, which is really what burnout is, is burnout is really a systems issue. It's not a personal failure.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And when I learned that both of those things were true, it was one of the things that pushed me to want to help our colleagues and because it's so common for all of us. And especially now, with COVID and that type of thing. So, not only leaning into the individual nature, the things that we can do with resilience training, with gratitude, with intentional induction and positive emotion, and these types of things as well as seeking mental health support from professionals.
But then, also the importance of team level, wellbeing team level, psychological safety, where our leaders and how we work as a team is vital. And then, the third thing is organizationally, or when we talk about the me, we, us. And I just love that model. So, me being the individual. We being team and leadership. And then, us, being the organization.
And then, organizationally, looking as the organization, do we have policies in place? Are we measuring burnout? Are we measuring the wellbeing? I mean, we're all clinicians listening to this. We all know, “Hey, if something's going on with our patients, we run tests.” How often are we doing that in veterinary medicine? How often are we taking the pulse? Excuse me, if our team… To find out what's going on.
So, those things are important. And then, okay, now we get this information, what do we do with it? And so, those things are just, what I found is that I want… I have a vision, like a lot of us in veterinary medicine, I want it to be here for years to come. And it's a beautiful profession. It really, there's a lot of joy and a lot of reward that can come from this profession. And we just need to… There's some things that need to be in place to make that happen.
So, the sky is not falling. But there's things that we need to address that are challenging. And then, we also need to lift up the positive aspects of the profession. So, in a nutshell, that's what I do is working on psychological health and safety, and team cohesion and individual skills of resiliency, and that type of thing. And how important that is to patient care, how important that is to longevity and sustainability as a veterinary professional.
It's things that we don't generally get taught. I mean, we're much better now, I should say. But just not taught in vet school or tech school, or I think it's more now in the CVPM that's part of, part of that as some of the leadership development and wellbeing of the teams. So, I'm glad there's much more awareness, but yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. So, as you do… I love you so much. There's so much to unpack there because you just crammed 10 pounds in a 5-pound bags there, friends. Okay. So, let's go back to a little bit about… So, what you're doing now with your work has to do with falling in love with the profession again and wanting to help yourself and help your peers, which led you to where you are? Let's go back for a second because this topic resonated with you because you found yourself in a place of burnouts.
And you and I have similar steps along our path where we found ourselves in dark places, and feeling really overwhelmed and exhausted. And you and I, both being long-term members of the recovery community. I think both found ourselves looking inward as you do when you're in recovery, you do a lot of work on yourself, hopefully.
But also, looking outside of ourselves and recognizing that we can only do so much on a personal level. And I love… You're actually going to be talking about this topic at the Uncharted Culture Conference…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
I am.
Stephanie Goss:
… shameless plug here, because you were going to be doing a session specifically on your… You mentioned the idea of we, me and us, right? How do we as individuals exist in veterinary medicine? There is responsibility and work that we can do on an individual level. And it doesn't exist in a vacuum, right?
The burnout on us can't only be on the individual because as you mentioned, there's external factors that impact from a team level, and team dynamics, and the safety that the team has in being able to talk to each other, ask for help, support each other, all of that. And then, there's the systems piece of it in the organizational structure.
And so, I'm super pumped. You are actually going to be doing a session for everybody who is attending the Culture Conference in October, and I'm super excited about that. So, if you're listening to this and you're already like, “I want to hear more about what Phil has to say,” you should head over to the website and sign up for that. Because it's virtual, so anybody can come, you don't have to be an Uncharted member, and you're going to be doing a general session.
And so, I don't want to spoiler too much of the details of what you're going to talk about there, but I do want to dig a little bit about where you started and empathizing with that on the personal me level. And then, talk a little bit about the organizational stuff.
So, when you found yourself out of school and getting into practice and you found yourself at the place where you recognized that you were burned out, was that a place where you could see what you were doing to your… So, you said that you were doing it to yourself regularly or you were working extra hours and you were taking on more and more and more in that space though, was that something that you recognized in yourself? Or was that something that others pointed out to you? Because like you said, your practice owner even said to you like, “Hey, you need to throttle this down.” What did that look like for you?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
No. So, I had an incorrect assumption on what I was supposed to do and what I was supposed to be capable of my first years out. And I thought, I just had this idea that I was going to go in, that I came out of vet school, I should have all the answers. If something went wrong, it was this weird thing is, for me, one of my thinking traps was, is that if something went wrong, I would blame everything else. But I also would then question like, “How responsible am I?” But it was almost like a defense mechanism.
And so, a lot of us in recovery have that. But when I'm going with this is that, the biggest thing was, is that I had… Now, I can see the signs of burnout in myself. And those signs were so clear back then, but I looked at them as they were failure. And instead of saying, “Hey, I need a break,” it was like, that horrible negative self-talk was, “You're just weak. You should be able to do this.”
Stephanie Goss:
You can't get it all done.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
You can't hang.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah. The reason why is, you're just not working hard enough. You need to be up later. You need to…
Stephanie Goss:
Just work harder, yeah.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Just work harder, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And as we know, I mean, it's like the battery analogy and the phone, you're just not even magically going to put all that in there. The spoon's theory is that, we've got a certain number of spoons we can use during the day. And it's like, when they're gone, they're gone. And that whole concept was just… I didn't have that, and I didn't know. I just thought the answer to everything was work harder.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, going back, you said the three of the classic hallmarks of burnout are the inability to focus and stay focused. Tell me what the three that you said again.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Right. Yeah, absolutely. So, and there are different definitions certainly, but this is what the World Health Organization describes it as. So, there's exhaustion. So, that's really a feeling. I think we can obviously all relate to just that physical, mental, emotional drain that we feel.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And what happens is, when we go through that just chronically, we begin to isolate. And as we know in recovery like isolation is that's when we start spiraling, is that when I disconnect from people, that's a challenge. So, exhaustion is one.
The second is cynicism and, “Ooh, do I… Yeah, leaning in the negative?” So, and to give you an idea of what this looks like on the ground in a veterinary hospital, our clinic, I should say the practice that I love… I'm getting to go back to the great group of practices. We worked really hard on psychological safety on all of these things and teamwork. And we just, generally speaking, I mean, we just didn't talk stuff about clients or one another. I mean, we were very intentional about that over the years.
And it was a red flag for me, is that I noticed when our team started, and this was during COVID. When they started talking stuff about clients. It wasn't normal for us. It was out of the norm.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And for myself, because I've been in some burnout lately, and I just become… The negativity bias kicks in. And instead of looking at the positive, I start going into the negativity bias. And so, that cynicism of the everything is bad, everything is this. And then, what happens is that, that creates a spiral as well. And then, the last thing is the inefficacy. So, go ahead. Yeah, I think the cynicism is…
Stephanie Goss:
No, no, I was just… You're getting there. It's funny because listening to you describe those things and you were saying like, “What does it look like in veterinary medicine?” I can totally recognize that exhaustion. And we talk about it jokingly in a lot of the manager groups that I'm in. But when you think about painting that picture and you think about how many… Everybody wakes up and is like, everybody has bad days, right?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Everybody has stuff going on in their lives. And there are absolutely times where you wake up and you're just like, “I don't want to go to work today.” You feel tired. You wake up and you're just like, “I can't… I'm dragging.” I mean, I knew I was getting up and getting to talk to you today, and I still was like, “I'm so tired. I just want to go back to bed,” where everybody has those days.
And when you were talking and thinking about it from the burnout perspective, and then leading to the place of cynicism, I think about when I was really struggling in the practice. It's that every day you wake up and you're like, “I just am so freaking exhausted. I don't want to get up. I don't like, I can't.” I got it. I'm getting up, and I'm pounding multiple energy drinks in the morning. And then, I walk in the door of the clinic and that cynicism immediately kicks in, and it's that that.
When I'm going in the door with that frame of mind of what such hell is awaiting me or everything is just like, “Can't you guys just leave me?” Somebody asked me, “Hey, when you're ready and you're settled in, can we talk about something for a second?” And I'm like, “For the love of God, why can't you just leave me alone?” I found myself in that place where it was like everything was reactive, everything was negative. And so, hearing you talk about that immediately, I can empathize with that because I can see it in myself.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah. And so, what's interesting about these concepts is that, I mean, it's a blurry line. It's not all overload necessarily. And that's where the recovery stuff came in is that, I found that I learned ways to challenge my negativity bias like, “Oh, this person did that.” And it's like, “Really? Did that like, am I filling in the blanks with stuff?” And that was something that I learned over time.
What was interesting to me is almost like an experiment is like, here, I have the tools and I still can't overcome it. I'm going… And that's what's been not just personally, but that's what's fascinating, if I can even say that about burnout, is that again, it's an external issue. And man, that's cynicism. I mean, we have our great friend Josh Weissman, amazing human being. And I shared that with him a few weeks ago. I was like, “I can just tell, because it's not my norm to be looking at the bad side of things. Or, oh, this is crap, or this is that.” It's like, “Damn, what's going on with me?” It's a sign. It's a clinical, almost like a clinical sign.
Stephanie Goss:
It's a sign, yeah.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah. But it's also, sometimes, when you're inside the pickle jar, it's hard to read the label. And so, if you have people that can… When you're in it, sometimes you don't know that you're in it, you're just… But I had friends, and then my wife is very kind of, to let me know, “Hey, you've mentioned this.”
Stephanie Goss:
You're not yourself.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, that you're bitching about for the fifth time. Maybe you need to…
Stephanie Goss:
Nineteenth time.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, right, right, right, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, friends, you have heard Andy and I talking about some of the big things that are coming in the back half of 2023 for Uncharted, but we are not done. In fact, we are not even close to done with releasing all of the new fun and exciting stuff that our team has been working on.
So, I want to make sure you don't miss out on it. Now, if you listen to the podcast, you're going to hear about it. But if you want to guarantee that you are the first to hear about the big giant announcement that we have coming soon. So, so, so soon, but not soon enough.
You want to head over to the website, unchartedvet.com/insight, that's I-N-S-I-G-H-T, unchartedvet.com/insight, and sign up for the newsletter. That will get you on the list and guarantee that you have first dibs access to the big, big news that is coming soon. Don't miss it. I promise. You're not going to want to miss out. And now, back to the podcast.
Okay. So, the exhaustion and the cynicism, and then I was emphasizing and cut you off with the last one, yeah.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Which here comes the shame spiral like Brené Brown. Inefficacy. is that the harder we try to push, the less efficient we can be, which is ironically, which is why, we well, burn out, is that when we do that, the cure for it is rest and changing the system. But what we do?
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, we just try and work harder.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
We do the opposite. And that's what all the evidence shows us is that, we can't do those things. And that, maybe we can go 110% on the reactor for a few weeks maybe, but it can't be a chronic state. Our bodies then physiologically, the release, excuse me, the chronic release of the stress hormones and all of these things, our bodies are not meant to function at that level. We can only do it for so long before body's just kind like, “Hey, I'm out.” And then, we start to see physical manifestations. And we get into that.
Stephanie Goss:
That feeds right back into the loop, right?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
100%.
Stephanie Goss:
Then, you're exhausted.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yup, yeah, right.
Stephanie Goss:
And it feeds the exhaustion model because you're physically feeling the toll of that. And then, it spirals and you feel like, you can't get out of it.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And then, you're not doing… You can't do as much work as you did even though you're trying. And then, what happened?
Stephanie Goss:
Inefficient?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And then, inefficient. And then, oh… And then, as I said in the Uncharted Conference, my inner critic's name is Carl. And then, Carl's up here going, “Oh, Phil, you are POS like, you really, you shouldn't even be doing this job. You can't do this. You can't do this. You're not getting this done. You are… Man, you are worthless.” And all that negative self-talk.
So, and we'll get into a little bit of what are some of the ways that we can combat that. I think as we go in the future. And just really, I have to do a shout-out to Dr. Michelle McQuaid and Dr. Danielle Jacobs from the Wellbeing Lab in Australia because they've done a lot of the work on this that I really lean into. And so, anyway, I just wanted to say like, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, okay. So, let's talk about that. So, you like career wise and path wise, you got out in vet school…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Right.
Stephanie Goss:
… and you were a new grad, and you almost crashed and burned, right? Because you were…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Definitely, yeah. I mean, I would say by… I mean, I was out of practice. So, I reached the bottom, I guess we can say to where I was pulled out of practice. I was in a treatment facility for 90 days, which by the way, is way more common than we just don't hear about it. But that saved my life. Not only did it give me the rest because of that. Remember we were talking about the physiologic stuff, chronic stuff, and then filling my cup back with tools that I then had to go back into that environment that I didn't have before. So, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, that kicked off the passion for you because when you meet Phil, one of the words that immediately comes to mind, if you have had the pleasure of spending time in your company, Phil is passionate. And I think that you are passionate about just life in general, which is one of the things that I love about you.
You just have great energy and being around you is wonderful, but you're so passionate about looking at veterinary medicine, and it would have been very easy for you to come out of treatment and stepping back into practice. It would've been very easy for you to look at it in a very cynical way because there is a lot that is challenging. And so many people will say, veterinary medicine is broken, and we're a hot mess. And there are a lot of people that look at it from a negative perspective, and feel like it's so systemically, we have so many problems, it's not fixable.
And you chose to look at it from the perspective that resonates with me, which is there is so much that is wonderful about veterinary medicine, and we need some help. And so, I feel like that kickstarted getting those tools and starting to fill your toolbox, kickstarted for you very much the same way my own experiences and my own… I mean, I was in recovery before veterinary medicine. But very much, we have similar paths in that way of like, it became a passion project for you.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, you started doing education and work around wellbeing and burnout, which led you down a path of positive psychology and the wellbeing work that you're doing now with Dr. McQuaid and the team in Australia. So, tell us a little bit about where your winding path took you next.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, so quickly. So, there was a 10-year area where I was in practice. I was going to meetings. I was trying to help medical professionals in recovery. But I was really quiet about it because of the stigma. And then, just as we know, the anonymous nature of 12-step recovery.
And then, there was just a point where I got to where I had the opportunity to be of service for the FVMA. And where I'm going with this is that it was like, now I knew these things worked. I knew these concepts and these principles and these things worked. But how was I going to go into talking to veterinary professionals and say, “Hey, I'm in AA, and this works.” And it's like… And then, so what happened was, is that I got put in a position of… And this is where Carl comes in, by the way. Carl, it was like, “Hey, you're just some drunk that learned some stuff and it just makes your life.” But…
Stephanie Goss:
What qualifies you to talk?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
… what qualifies you to… And then, I was like, “Shit. Shoot, sorry.” I was like, “Maybe I should go do…” So, I looked into potentially getting a master's. But then, so now, I'm a certification nut.
Stephanie Goss:
Junkie?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, anyhow. But yes, I do. So, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I know, I know. Trying to change our language.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Trying to change our language because it does matter. It does matter, by the way, everybody that's listening. However…
Stephanie Goss:
It does matter. It does matter.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
So, the first certification I took was… But I ended up taking the compassion fatigue professional certification. At the end of that, it talks about the cure for compassion fatigue or the treatment for compassion fatigue is skills of resiliency. I look at these and I say, “Steph,” if we knew each other back then.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
I'm like, “Oh, my gosh. This is exactly the same stuff that I learned in 12-step recovery.” It's just there's… I jokingly said, “There's $20 words associated with it.” And I'm like, “That's it. And truths are truths.” So, I just got down. I was like it, “This is it. This is it.”
So, I got into positive psychology and cognitive behavioral coaching. And all these things that basically take the same, they take very similar principles and put that together. But then, I remembered also is that there is an importance to the self-portion of this or the me portion of this. But it is multifactorial, is that we do need, our leaders have an outsized influence on that. And how we work as a team is vitally important, and is the organization there. So, I ended up getting a bunch of certifications because Carl told me that I needed to.
Stephanie Goss:
Qualified.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah. And so, now, I don't know. It's like, 22… I think, yeah, I have 22.
Stephanie Goss:
I was going to say, you have an alphabet. You have an alphabet after your name.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
So, but I mean, I also, one of my strengths is love of learning. So, my wife's like, “Well, whatever. At least he's not doing what he was doing 15 years ago.” So, she was with me, by the way, through all that. God bless her. She's a veterinarian as well. She's amazing that she is.
Stephanie Goss:
She's a wonderful, wonderful human being.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Carl… So, where were we?
Stephanie Goss:
You were heading towards what you're doing now…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yes, that's right.
Stephanie Goss:
… and looking at other countries that are doing way more about it, less than we are in the United States. Because you recognized, as did I, that while you… Especially as a person who is in recovery, you're hyperfocused on the me part, right?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Right.
Stephanie Goss:
Because you're working on yourself, you're working on what can I control? What can I do to make amends? Like fix your own backyard first before you go fix in anybody else's, right?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Right. Which is as the phrase that we use in recovery stuff, as you know, is what is my part? What's my part in this situation? And so, while that is vitally important for us in veterinary medicine, if the organization has a part or if the team or the leader has a part, we do need to work on both. So…
Stephanie Goss:
Right. They don't exist in a vacuum.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, right.
Stephanie Goss:
You can't just solve your way out of burnout or fatigue by looking onto me.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Right. And then, what happens, as we know, and this gets into what we were talking about is that, if I am at as close to 100% spiritual… I'm doing all the things right. If the environment I'm in, if I'm having to see 50, 60 patients a day, I'm short staff, and my boss doesn't care about me, it doesn't like…
Stephanie Goss:
It doesn't matter how hard you work.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
It doesn't overcome those things.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
So, we need to help those things. Now, the flip side is, if I have a great leader and they're doing all these things and I'm like, “Oh, this is just… Everything's crap and this is crap, and this is…”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
That part is on, I need…
Stephanie Goss:
If you're not taking the ownership.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Right. But usually, again, it's not a black and white line. There's parts of all of this.
Stephanie Goss:
They've study you make sure of all three.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Right. And so, intuitively, it's like you start looking at, “What are these things in the workplace?” And so, come to find… So, when I did my positive psychology certification, I also did a certification and positive psychology consulting. So, actually, taking positive psychology into workplaces like, how does this actually…
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
These concepts sound all good, but what's the evidence that this actually works in a workplace? Obviously, there's ton. There's a whole field of study. We know Adam Grant from University of Pennsylvania is one person that we really hear a lot about. But this field of positive organizational scholarship, which means, how does this stuff work in business? How does this stuff work in the workplace?
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Right.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And so, that led to finding out about the ISO 45003. And ISO is like international OSHA. And 45003 are the psychological health and safety standards, international psychological health and safety standards. So, things that need to be in place in workplaces. So, the way that I like to describe it to veterinary professionals is, we go in and take x-rays on a patient. What do we do, Steph? Do I go into my scrubs?
Stephanie Goss:
No.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
No, I don't because I know that that x-ray is dangerous. So, I take precautions. I put on my lead down.
Stephanie Goss:
Put on your lead down.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Put on my thyroid shield. I put on my gloves. Yes, wear your gloves.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, yes, yup. Put on your gloves and dosimetry badge.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Because I know that's a hazard.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Well, guess what is that? Those things… There are psychological hazards in our workplaces that we can take the same precautions of. Or if we can't remove them, at least we can mitigate them, is that we can do that.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And that's one. And then, the other aspect is that we have to actively promote flourishing and thriving. We have to do the positive things as well. And it's not enough to… We're not coming in and just saying, “Oh, everything's… Good vibes only.” I'm not saying that.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
There are evidence-based ways of inducing positive emotion, engagement using our strengths, building positive relationships at work. All of those things are vital. And saying, for instance, conflict management. Saying, we know that if I want to implement a change at work, and I just go in and I say, “Okay, we're getting a new PiMS system. It's starting Monday. I'm changing the prices on everything, and you guys are now all responsible for…” We're also doing 12 new initiatives around all these things. “And we're going to do them all at once and we're going to do them now, and that starts Monday. Cool, everybody good? Bye.” That's poor change management. And however, we're not…
Stephanie Goss:
I'm laughing because I guarantee that there are people who are listening to this episode who are like, “Oh, my God, he just described what the hospital…”
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Describe the what? How? How? The part of it…
Stephanie Goss:
I'm laughing. I'm laughing not because I empathize with that because I have been there in the organization…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
You know what? 100%.
Stephanie Goss:
… that has changes…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And by the way, everyone that's listening, that's in recovery. Somebody shares something to the outside would seem horrible, and then the whole room laughs because we all know like, we've all been there. It's all the same thing, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Get it, yeah.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
So, but in all seriousness, poor change management, and they found this out in Australia through McQuaid's research. Is that poor change management was one of the highest psycho… So, these things that we see are called psychosocial risks or psychosocial hazards. That was one of the biggest areas that caused psychological harm, and workplaces was poor change management.
So, knowing when I do that, I'm going to instantly drop the level of like, if I just say, “Hey, we're switching PiMS, and go in. If I don't know the level of stress or the things that are going to happen to my team in doing that, and not throttle the schedule, and not do this, and not do things to mitigate that, knowing that I've just… I don't want to say throw a grenade. But I've put something into my team that is going to negatively affect their mental health because it takes time to learn. It's like onboarding.
Stephanie Goss:
Right, right.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
We can't just throw somebody into a clinic and just expect them to know everything day one. Same thing with the PiMS like, it's going to take us… No matter what it is, no matter how great the system is, it's going to take us… We're human beings probably, take us three months to catch our groove.
Stephanie Goss:
Right, right.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
If we haven't scheduled that in, we're setting our teams up for psychological harm. We're setting them up for burnout. The other thing…
Stephanie Goss:
And so, there are places where… There are actually, places in the world shocking because as Americans, having had the privilege of living in multiple countries, it's funny how I can see the American viewpoint. And this feels like very one of them because shocking to know that there are countries outside of the United States. We are not the center of the world. And there are places in the rest of the world where like, you were telling us that there's the ISO standards…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
There are actually places that say, “Hey, not only can you not do this…” And here's what the… But they set the bar in terms of expectation for employers, just like OSHA would hear with setting the safety standards, you have to take care of your team and protect them safety wise.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
There are standards that are applicable in other countries that say, “Hey, when it comes to your team and their wellbeing and their mental health and their emotional, you're responsible for that emotional safety. And here's what the expectation is.” And that's fascinating to me like, fascinating to me because I'm like, it makes perfect sense. And also, it makes me sad that we are once again, so behind other countries.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yes, but there's more. There's chapter two, which is exciting. So, one, just knock on your roof. I know you're in Washington. Just knock on your roof and wave to our neighbors, to the North.
Stephanie Goss:
Canadian neighbors, yup.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, one of those certifications I have is I'm a certified psychological health and safety advisor, and I had to get that from Canada because we don't have…
Stephanie Goss:
You can't get it here, yeah.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
No. So, shout out to the Surgeon General of the United States. Surgeon General's Office, just put out recommendations for US workplaces. So, they're great. So, there's a five spoke area on that that's all centered around worker voice and equity. So, that's the central cog, if you will, in the wheel. And so, it's protection from harm.
So, we want to mitigate these things, connection to community, creating belonging, work-life harmony, creating opportunities for us, knowing that leaving our stuff at the door is BS like, that doesn't work, mattering at work. And then, having opportunities to grow. And mattering means, as a leader, as a team, you let me know through reward and recognition. You let me know I'm doing a good job. You give me constructive feedback. You do these things. And then, obviously, opportunities to learn and grow and that sort of thing.
So, in general, the ISO 45003 standards encompass a lot of those things. So, now, each country, most countries or many countries have their own psychological health and safety standards. And again, the US has come out with that and kind of cool things. It's not super-secret, but I'm on this awesome team. Josh is on it, Makenzie Peterson from used to be with AVMC, working with veterinary visionaries to help create psychological health and safety standards for US veterinary organizations.
So, but what is that again? How do we protect our brains? How do we protect our brains and souls from the stuff that we see in veterinary medicine? Because there are things that are specific to veterinary medicine. But the interesting thing is that most of the things like conflict management, we're not the only ones that have conflict management. Oh, yeah, poor change management? We're not the only ones that…
But yet, those are the things that cause it and role clarity. That was, by the way, in Australia in the study that McQuaid's group just put out, low like, not understanding, not being very clear on what my job is and who do I go to for what? And when this happens, when low role clarity was the most encountered psychosocial risks that caused harm. So, that's amazing. Yeah, go ahead.
Stephanie Goss:
It would shock no one to think about veterinary medicine, and think about how many of us have worked in jobs in veterinary medicine where we have no idea what our actual role is…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
I didn't know… Yeah, and then what happened? And then, throwing out all these terms, low psychological safety. Doctor comes in or owner, “Why didn't you do, whatever?” I didn't know…
Stephanie Goss:
I didn't know…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And then, that person gets mad, then they're blaming you for something that you didn't even know that you were responsible for. And that is not… And everybody listening has been in a situation similar to that where it's like, we're almost held… Why didn't you know? Like, I don't know. How am I supposed to know that? I can't intuitively know it.
And so, again, it becomes how important it is. And this starts to even go into onboarding, why it's so important to connect people to onboarding and what role clarity and where you go to for what. Because when that stuff hits the fan, we want to know what the plan is.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And also, that increases efficiency, which efficiency is, it's not sexy, so to speak. But that is a huge area of importance for wellbeing in the workplace is practice efficiency, is if I'm doing…
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yeah, well… And, I mean…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, go ahead.
Stephanie Goss:
That makes perfect sense because it's the third, the inefficiency is the third wheel of the burnout. So, it makes total sense that those two things are tied super closely together.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, yup.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. Don't give away the…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
No, this just the sprinkles. This isn't even the cake.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. Friend, I can talk to you all day long. But…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah. Oh, my gosh.
Stephanie Goss:
Andy will kill me if we do a five-hour podcast. But I have a question for you before we wrap up.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, that's right.
Stephanie Goss:
So, one of the…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Can I say just some of the things to try to look into combat, and this won't give stuff away?
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, yes, of course, of course.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
If we've got these, because I don't want to go, “Oh, here's all the crap.” The things that is going on is making sure… So, four things, and this was actually from McQuaid research as well, is that Carl…
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. And we'll put links to…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, we'll put links to the article.
Stephanie Goss:
… what the thing that Carl is talking about the article and the research in the show notes. So, don't worry about that. Okay. So, Carl…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
So, Carl's talking crap about me. There's a concept that's called self-compassion, and we've talked about it. Our friend Jamie at Uncharted, really leans into this. I found coaching wise, that is the tool that I lean into more than anything else with people is self-compassion, replacing self-criticism with self-compassion.
Kristin Neff, N-E-F-F, we'll put a link to her stuff in the notes as well. She's the Founder of the Concept of Self-Compassion. Great, great stuff. It really helps change our thinking. What are we crappy at setting for ourselves as veterinary professionals?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, boundaries.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Boundaries, that's what…
Stephanie Goss:
Boundaries.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, we got to learn how to do that. That's another… I'll just leave that. I'll leave in that, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
All right. So, I was going to say, you just gave us two giant boulders because…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Boulders. So, lean and self… Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Self-compassion is hard, AF. And boundaries…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, but get curious, get curious.
Stephanie Goss:
… are real hard.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. All right. So, we got some mountains to climb. Keep going.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
So, then rest… When people take vacation, make that reward and recognition like honor people for taking vacation. Like, “Hey, make this a good thing.” Not, “Oh, I can't believe you're leaving us in the lurch.” It's like, because again, remember, if we get beat up chronically, our bodies can't… They can't recover. We have to prioritize rest and recovery. We have to prioritize rest and recovery. We have to prioritize rest and recovery.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, rest and recovery. That is what we are doing right now because we are reporting this. You and I are not resting and recovering, but we are doing this because Andy is resting and recovering…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Fearless leader.
Stephanie Goss:
… and taking… The fearless leader is taking a break. And I will tell you that that, I mean, some of you heard the podcast that I did with our dear friend Eric Garcia, and my colleague and amazing partner in crime, Tyler Grogan from our team last year…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Oh, my God. Such great people.
Stephanie Goss:
… on unplugging, they are both amazing. But we talked about unplugging and rest and recovery. And we are actually, about to record a follow-up to that episode for everybody because we've been getting a lot of questions about how it's going now. And all of us took some unplugged time off this summer, and we're talking about that.
But I love that because your point is a really valid one because that's another boulder for veterinary medicine. Because what do we do? What do you think about it in the burnout spiral? And you think about Carl sitting on your shoulder and being the negative self-talker in your ear, we just tell ourselves, “Oh, just keep working. Work harder, work harder, work harder.” And you'll dig yourself out of this hole. And we do not think about it in terms of rest and recovery. And we just try and work harder as the answer. And that is exactly what leads us to the place of burnout.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah. And the last…
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Prioritizing opportunities to experience positive emotion, gratitude.
Stephanie Goss:
What?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
What? That's the evidence. I'm not just making that up because the sun shine. That is literally prioritizing positive emotion is that… And as I said in Unchartered, celebrate the wins, hold the trophy, hunt the good stuff. I love saying that, is that be intentional because good stuff is like, Teflon and bad stuff is like Velcro, is that we have to be very intentional about experiencing positive emotions in veterinary hospitals.
And what does that mean is that, as leaders, we need to do that, is that we have to stop and celebrate the wins. We have to sit down and let the puppy kiss us in the face that we saved, sit with those things. And so, what's wonderful is I, now because we've been so intentional about it, I can remember those things in the workplace. Yes, Stephanie.
Stephanie Goss:
That does not mean you sit down and let the puppy give you kisses in the face, and then bring that puppy home. Just throwing it out there, friends. Because…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
One puppy, maybe. I can't…
Stephanie Goss:
No. No more puppies. So…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
I'm wrong. So…
Stephanie Goss:
You're the problem.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
So, this awesome like, super quick. So, I got to go back and help a mentor, a new grad vet that used or works where I used to work. And they sent me a text message like 9:00 at night and were like, “Hey, sent me pictures of this fracture.” And I was like, “Y'all want me to come up and give you a hand?” And they're like, “Would you?” And I'm like, “Yeah.”
So, I came up. We're doing the fracture repair and Dr. Ortiz does it. I look at, and he's just trying to help this kitten. It's a 10-week-old kitten that got hit by a car. It's got a fractured femur. So, we fixed it. And I look up at him and I said, “You know, this is your cat, right?” And he's like, I mean, he's like, “I thought about it.” I was like, “No, no, no, no.” I said, “This is your cat.” I said, “That's the rule.” I said, “Because that's what I did.”
Stephanie Goss:
It's not a rule!
Dr. Phil Richmond:
It is a rule. Hold on, let me qualify that. Let me qualify that. Your first fracture repair on a kitten that got dumped and like, it can be your cat. It's not a rule. It's not a rule. But it can be. It doesn't have to be a rule. But it happened to me, is what I was saying.
So, 15 years ago or whatever, that's what happened. I had a kitty that got… She got shot 18 times with a BB gun, and had a fractured femur. And they brought her in. She was on the news, and everything. And we fixed it. And she was on national news. And our receptionist was like, she's like, “You're going to keep this kitten, aren't you?” I was like… I mean… She's like, “Will you just please?” Because she's like, “I'm getting calls from all over the country to adopt this kitten. Will you please just tell me that you're taking the kitten?”
Stephanie Goss:
That you're keeping it?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah. And so, I did. And her name was BB. And she was great.
Stephanie Goss:
So, that's fantastic. So, did Dr. Ortiz adopt the little kitten?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
He did. He did. The kitten is great.
Stephanie Goss:
Shut up.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Of course, he did!
Stephanie Goss:
You're such an enabler.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
But I will say… I will say, is that that's part… So, you don't have to have 20 cats. But you could have one, if you're not allergic. You could have one kitten that you saved. You could. Everybody's got… I mean…most
Stephanie Goss:
I want to do a whole podcast series on the stories of the animals…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
How did people got…
Stephanie Goss:
… from, yeah.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Because you are the shining representation of having no boundaries in veterinary medicine when it comes to animals. And saying…
Dr. Phil Richmond:
That's my wife. My wonderful wife that we described like, how many animals are in this house that I'm directly responsible of for? None. Like zero now. None. None of them. She brought everyone in the house. She brought every one of them all. Every one of them. But…
Stephanie Goss:
But wouldn't that make a fun podcast series?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
It would. I mean, yeah, we'd have to be a video podcast and that we… We probably should have like a Nat Geo show. I don't even know. I told you we got finches now too.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, my Gosh.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
So, everyone, we had zero birds in January of 2022, and we have 17 birds now.
Stephanie Goss:
Because Carl can't say no.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Because I was at VLC with Tasha, and we were speaking and I get a message and she's like, “This happened.” And there's a giant cage in the back of her sister's huge pickup truck because she bought a Macaw, and we had no birds January 2022, we had no birds. And now, we have a Macaw, two Caiques, and a Conure and 13… We have 11 finches and two canaries. But it brings us joy. It brings us joy.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, my gosh. I can't.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
I know.
Stephanie Goss:
But it brings you joy.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Send help. And help us, please. Please, anyone.
Stephanie Goss:
We are going to drop… We've done it now. It's done completely.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
We squirrel, we squirrel.
Stephanie Goss:
Normally, Andy and I go off the rails in the beginning of an episode. But we, you and I, I think mostly saved it until the end of it.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
We did good. We did good.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, we did good. We did good.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. So, if people want to find you, we're going to drop in the show notes links to some of the resources and research that you were talking about. But if people want to find you, they can find you at Uncharted in October, as I already said. But besides that, where can people find you on social media?
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah. So, I am at Flourishing Phoenix Vet on Facebook and Instagram and www.flourishingphoenix.com. And then, on LinkedIn it's preferred. Pretty positive like, I like LinkedIn. So, LinkedIn, I think it's Dr. Phil Richmond is my account, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay, I love it. I love it so much. Thanks for having this conversation with me today, friend.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, thank you.
Stephanie Goss:
This has been fun. Thank you all for listening. We'll see how many people got to the end of this one because as always, we did some squirreling. But we stayed… High-five friends because we stayed decently for two people that have as much in common as we do, whose brains work very similarly.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, we feel good.
Stephanie Goss:
I feel like, we did justice.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
We did good.
Stephanie Goss:
So, we're staying a little bit on target with this. We're knocking Carl, I'm flicking him off my shoulder. We're patting ourselves on the back with this one.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
And by the way, if not… So, I worked with an amazing human being named Carl Ashman. Carl, if you happen like, it's not you at all. This was long before I knew you. So, I just want you to know it's 100% not you.
Stephanie Goss:
Disclaimer.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Yeah, disclaimer. Carl is not that Carl at all. Carl is a wonderful human being.
Stephanie Goss:
Thanks so much for joining me today, Phil. And thank you all for listening and have a fantastic rest of the week, everybody. We'll see you next time.
Dr. Phil Richmond:
Bye. Thank you.
Stephanie Goss:
And that's a wrap on another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Thanks for joining us and spending your week with us. If you enjoyed this week's episode, head over to wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review. It's the best way to let us know that you love listening. We'll see you next time.
Facebook Comments