This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…
Have you ever asked yourself the question “Am I toxic?” This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are tackling a letter from the mailbag that asks some amazingly self-aware questions. Our listener said that they have seen/heard a lot of information about toxic work environments and toxic employees (as a group). They haven't seen a whole lot of discussion about how to tell if you might be toxic. Or heading in that direction. They are asking great questions about how to frame their headspace to think about this and also how the heck to handle it if you do think you might be a bit toxic. Let’s get into this…
You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
Upcoming Events
Navigating Neurodiversity – Your Clients, Coworkers, and Self with Dr. Amanda Doran
Learn to navigate interactions with different individuals and create a culture that is supportive of neurodiversity in the workplace.
Date: July 27
Time: 7pm ET/4pm PT – 9pm ET/6pm PT
Price: $99/FREE for Uncharted Members
All Uncharted Veterinary Community Workshops are LIVE! You will be able to ask the instructor questions that help you address your practice’s unique problems. This will not be 2 hours of silent screen time. Gear up for interactive, fun learning!
Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast Andy and I are diving into yet another topic from the Mailbag. You all have been on fire lately and I am here for it. This one was amazing. No exception. It was so great. It came to us from a listener who said, “Hey look, I've heard you and Andy talk here. And I've seen in lots of other places about toxic work environments and toxic employees, but I haven't seen a whole lot of information about how to tell if you might be a toxic person and also how do we prevent toxicity from forming? What might trigger it, et cetera. And I definitely haven't heard anything about what to do if you think that you might be the one who is becoming toxic.”
Stephanie Goss:
I absolutely loved this email and all of the questions that this listener asked us. And I cannot wait to dive into this conversation. Andy and I had so much fun recording this one. I hope that it is fun and helpful and engaging for all of you to listen to. So let's get into this one shall we?
Stephanie Goss:
And now the Uncharted Podcast.
Andy:
And we are back, it's me Dr. Andy Roark, and Stephanie don't you know that you're toxic, Goss.
Stephanie Goss:
I was really hoping that you were going to sing Britney Spears for us.
Andy:
Oh man.
Stephanie Goss:
That's really what I was hoping for.
Andy:
So I'm hanging out with my 11 year old because I'm driving her around to camp and everything. And the day I have listened to Dua Lipa Levitating three times today and it's lunch time and she sings all the words.
Stephanie Goss:
How fun for you?
Andy:
Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
You know what? I have a Christmas present suggestion for you.
Andy:
Oh yeah. What is that?
Stephanie Goss:
AirPods.
Andy:
AirPods for my kids? Oh yeah. Oh, here you go. Just plug yourself in.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, I really have been trying to focus this year on more intentional time with the kids as a family and really have been trying to ratchet back the screen time. We had the conversation with our pediatrician who was asking about screen time. And he was just, “Yeah, now's the age where we really need to ratchet it back.” And I was like, “Okay.” So I've been trying, but summer has hit and we had some camp stuff and now we have a week where we've got stuff happening, but they're not going anywhere during the day. And so during the pandemic, when they were home and I'm trying to work and we were just kidding, we were just getting ready to start. And I had just hit, set everything up and hit record. Then the door to my closet office open. And the kid walks in and it was like, “Here, I brought you this, you left it on the counter.” I'm like, “Okay, that's not important. And I told you not to interrupt already.” But it's that time in the summer.
Andy:
You left it on the counter and I thought you might want it. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And bless his heart. I appreciate it so much.
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
But I will admit, I unlocked the time limits on their devices and gave them headphones and was, “Here, go with God, have fun.” I need a couple hours of peace to work, please.
Andy:
That is the modern parent thing right there. It's sort of holding out against the onslaught for screen time, especially when you're working from home. It's like, “Oh, it's just brutal. It's just brutal.” I have a Christmas gift for you.
Stephanie Goss:
A lock for my door?
Andy:
Yeah. It's a lock for your closet. It's an exterior lock for your closet. Totally wig out any service provider who comes to your house, “Why do you have a lock on outside of your closet?” Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
We're just not going to talk about that.
Andy:
Yeah, no, exactly.
Stephanie Goss:
It's uncharted after dark answer.
Andy:
Exactly.
Stephanie Goss:
What's your actual Christmas present though?
Andy:
We got a message through social media from one of our Australian listeners. And he says that in Australia, the word doodle is slang for the male anatomy. And so every time we talk about playing with my doodle and taking my doodle for a walk and how I have a bad doodle, he just has to collect himself for a half an hour, and it made me so happy and so mortified at the same time.
Stephanie Goss:
I wish you guys could see Andy's space right now, because he's blushing quite nicely. This makes me delighted.
Andy:
Oh yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And I will also say that is fantastic. And we thought we were a work appropriate show, but maybe apparently not.
Andy:
I guess not.
Stephanie Goss:
Not in Australia anyways.
Andy:
I know it's not in Australia but in the rest of the world we get an explicit label in Australia, but we couldn't explain before now, but now I get it.
Stephanie Goss:
Thanks. I am now not going to be able to refer to skipper Rourk.
Andy:
I know as Andy's doodle.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh God.
Andy:
Yeah. All right.
Stephanie Goss:
This is going to be a fun one to edit. Okay. Moving on.
Andy:
Yeah. Let's move on from this. But I knew how happy that would make you. And I was like, “I just have to share this with Stephanie.”
Stephanie Goss:
I think there might be some good uncharted after dark edits that come out of this one. Speaking of listeners though, we have a good Mailbag topic that I've been waiting for us to be able to get to this one I think is fun and I'm excited to dive into it. So we had somebody who said just recently, you guys had done a podcast and talked about being toxic actually, which is where this came from. And they said, “I hear a lot of discussion here on the podcast, but also other places about toxic work environments and toxic employees. And I'm struggling to find out how to tell if you are the toxic person in that situation, and also how to prevent toxicity from forming in the workplace, what might trigger it, et cetera.” And they said, “And I really haven't heard a whole lot on what to do if you think you are the one who's toxic, right?”
Stephanie Goss:
And it was funny to me because when I read it, I started thinking about it and looking through stuff and there's tons of reference material out there and research information about what is a toxic workplace. How to tell if people you work with are toxic?
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
So there's not a lot of stuff geared towards how do you decide if you're the toxic one? And they said, “Recently you guys were talking about a person becoming toxic and one of you said that there's no going back which found it sounded really final and kind of terminal to me.” And they said, “I'm really hoping that's not the case for me.” They recognize that they feel a little toxic right now. They don't want to continue to be that way. They also don't want to leave and go be toxic somewhere else. They just are feeling really stuck because they want things to improve at the practice that they're at and for themselves.
Stephanie Goss:
And so they said, “I fear, I think that some of what I think are toxic feelings and behaviors are coming from a place of, I started out really optimistic and I was really positive about change that was happening in the practice. I had a lot of ideas. We were working together. Things like improving patient care, efficiency workflow but I feel like at this point it's starting to be kind of lip service. They're saying that things are going to change and then the changes aren't happening the way that they're promised. And when I combine that with my own, they said my own stubborn streak, that means I don't want to take no for an answer.”
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
“And that I hate being ignored. I feel like I am asking repeatedly for change and it's not going anywhere. And so they were just like you know, I know that there are other options. I know that I could leave, but I am an associate doctor. I see so much potential in this practice. I want to help change. And I'm wondering what I can do so that I don't become the toxic one here because they said, I feel like I'm just stuck in a big giant rut.”
Andy:
Yeah. I like this. I have this question. I've heard a couple different versions of it over the years. So I think it's good. I think it's good when people have that question of, “Am I becoming toxic?” I think most of us go through periods like this in our life at some point.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
I have asked myself that question. In fact, I think I called you and said, “Okay, I'm going to tell you something and then I need you to tell me, am I the toxic asshole here? Thank you.” And I've had that conversation.
Andy:
Well, originally I liked this so much is that you can see exactly where it comes from. So okay, let's put ourselves in the position of this associate and you're in this practice and say, it's a corporate practice or leadership's not there or the leadership there has fairly limited power in what they can do in their short term, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy:
It's not a small ship now. They are one member of a huge fleet that is all trying to get their stuff organized together so they can move in one massive formation and you see massive potential. You are making suggestions. You are asking for changes. You are seeing obvious things that you think would work on the ground to make life better for everyone, and you're getting some lip service, but nothing is happening and so you're getting frustrated with the fact that these things are not changing and you're seeing obvious places where things could be improved, and they're not being improved.
Andy:
Just imagine for a second that you're working in an inefficient system that causes you to do extra work every day, just because you don't have the tools that you need to make your life better. I think that would bother all of us.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy:
And what happens is, and we see this in our lives, it's the death spiral, meaning I'm unhappy and so I show that I'm unhappy. And I cross my arms and I disengage, or I cross my arms and I get frustrated, and I speak to you in a more curt manner, which decreases the chances of you doing the thing that I want to do.
Andy:
And maybe it makes you feel more defensive, which then makes me feel like, “Well, I'm not getting anywhere else.” And then you start to ignore me because I'm negative every time you see me. You start to avoid me. People stop taking me seriously because I'm complaining all the time, which then makes me more angry because I'm being ignored and not taken seriously. And so I act out more and you see this, we've all seen this with a person who had a good relationship with the practice or with a sports team or a volunteer organization and they start to butt heads or they get frustrated and they show their frustration, which causes people to back away from them, which gives them more frustrated.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy:
Until ultimately the whole thing crashes and burns. And this is not uncommon. And I think the fact that this person sees opportunity for improvement and so much potential and is making these recommendations, oftentimes that plays a critical role in being this sort of toxic. I'm using the word toxic not really in a literal sense but it sets them up pre-toxic, which is really ironic because if they didn't care enough to make suggestions, if they just were punching the clock, then they wouldn't be bothered so much so they wouldn't get so frustrated and angry, which wouldn't make the whole thing worse.
Stephanie Goss:
It's funny, because I had this literal conversation with someone yesterday and coming to that place of the reason that you're so upset and the way that you're acting is because you care which is a good thing, inherently is a good thing. The outcome still has to change, right?
Andy:
I agree. The other point that I want to make is I have said many times, if you have a toxic person in your practice, generally, the only way that toxicity is going to end is if that person is removed from the practice or if you leave the practice and I said that a number of times. There's a big caveat to that I want to make right here because it's really important.
Andy:
If you have a toxic person who is not interested in not being a toxic person and who is not willing to put in the work to become a non-toxic person, then everything I said was true.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy:
If you think that you are the toxic person that's different because you do have the power to change your behavior.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy:
We all have the power to change our behavior. You may not be able to change what's happening to you, but you do have the power to change how you respond to it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
And so it is a hundred percent in your control if you think that you are being in a toxic mind space, whether or not you continue down that path.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Andy:
And so I want to put that forward as a point of light at the beginning. So let's talk about some headspace you want to?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, let's do it.
Andy:
All right. Cool. All right. Am I the toxic person? So I just said, we all go through periods of this, right? Your reputation is based on your pattern of behavior. I have been toxic for a day. I've probably been toxic for a week or a month or maybe even a quarter at times in my life when I was frustrated or as down or I was burned out or I was whatever. I think we've all probably gone through those things. If you are dealing with someone who's going through a divorce, they're probably feeling a bit toxic, and that's understandable. We're all human beings. Most of us can't compartmentalize everything and be perfect every day. We're not built that way. And so there is a natural variance around the mean where everybody has bad days.
Andy:
I don't care how good you are. We all have bad days. When we talk about someone who's really becoming toxic. What we see is a consistent pattern or a progression in that negative direction that says, “Yes, I'm becoming toxic.” So how do we know if we're there? And for me, there's two tests-
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy:
… that we do. The first one is and parental advisory here. There's some language coming. It's the a-hole test. I'm going to say the word. I'm just building up to it. We got a letter one time saying, “Hey, I love [inaudible 00:14:12] to show with my kids.” And I've never forgotten it. I'm always like-
Stephanie Goss:
I know. I already made a note to have our editor bleep my comment earlier because I was like, “You need a comment.”
Andy:
There is a famous quote. And I can't remember who says it. I'm paraphrasing a little bit. Basically it says, “If you wake up in the morning and you meet an asshole, then you met asshole. If you wake up in the morning and everyone you meet all day is an asshole then you are the asshole.” And I have found that to be a good measure for me.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy:
If I'm mad at everybody or if I'm mad at three different people, I'm probably the one who is causing the problem. If I get up and I get into a spat with my wife and my kids frustrate me, and my technician is irritating me in my first appointment. It's not about my wife or my kids or my technician. It's about me. I have no doubt that I am. I am the one.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy:
And so if you are beefing with multiple people, and it's the pet owners, and it's the staff, and it's the other doctors, and it's the management, you are the common denominator in all of these beefs and you need to consider that you are the negative force here.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think you're spot on. And I think that I was going to interject earlier when you were talking about being the toxic one. And I think how we use the word is really important because I think a lot of times the word can be used very loosely when it shouldn't be. Like you said, everybody has a bad day. Everybody sometimes has a bad week or something is happening in their life and they grow through a period of time that's even bad. And I think that's why the analogy you just gave is such a great one, because the question is, are you having a bad day? But there are still things that are good and interactions that are good. There are people you can work with just fine like is it everybody or is it you? And I think that's really important. And I think too often, I'm glad we're talking about it more in our industry.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think that too often, we use the word toxic to describe people and situations that are maybe not actually toxic and/or are very transient versus a sustained period of behavior that really needs some further examination. And so I'm really glad you said that because I think it is important to look at are you the common denominator?
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Is it you or really are there things, is this temporary? Are you having a bad week? Are you having a bad day? But at some point when you wake up and you're having a bad year, that's a period of time where maybe you should start to take a look at that, right?
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
So I think that's really important. It's a piece of judging how are we using the word and are we using it correctly?
Andy:
Yeah. I agree with that. Let's sort of define the term here. So for me, there's the term, there's how we use it. So the term toxic to me, the reason I like that term is because to me something that's toxic leeches into the environment. It corrupts the area around it. And so if someone comes in and they're just having a bad day, if they're not coercing other people to have bad days, if they're not making other people unhappy or ill at work, then they're not toxic. But to me, toxic has this leeching effect of being contagious affecting the area the people around them.
Andy:
A toxic is something that kills, meaning nothing moves forward because this person just undermines it and causes it to die. And so when this person is the cause of a death of progress, and this person is affecting those around them in a negative sort of sickening sort of way, that is a toxic person. That is toxic. The way that we use it is we say that people are toxic and that's lazy language and I'm very guilty of it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Me too.
Andy:
Their toxic behavior is different from say, the person is toxic because when I say Stephanie Gosk is toxic, I'm not talking about Stephanie's behavior anymore. I'm talking about her as a person. That's the pretty significant step. And I do think that we throw that around and we say, “That person is toxic.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy:
What we mean is that person is exhibiting toxic behaviors.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy:
At some point, if you exhibit toxic behaviors for a long enough and consistent enough period of time, then it is highly understandable that someone would say that person is toxic, but I think we jumped to that much faster than we probably should.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, no, I agree with all that. And I think it's interesting because when I was getting ready for this and I was looking at it, I read an article from the Harvard Business School and they had done a big research study about toxicity at work. And one of the things that they did was kind of define it. And I really liked the way that they looked at it from a truly stark perspective. It was when the behaviors are harmful to the other employees or the organization. And it was nice because when I was reading it, I started thinking about it, I was like, “Okay, you can have somebody who is acting in a way that is negative and even borderline toxic.” But for me it was a stark separation of when you have somebody who is intentionally or even unintentionally doing things that are harmful to other people or to the group or to the company, that's a really clear indication to me.
Stephanie Goss:
And for me, it was like, “Oh, okay. That becomes easier to separate out from the behavior in the moment.” This is a thing or things that are being done versus somebody's having a really bad day or really bad week because I think that there are cases where you can have somebody who hasn't doesn't have a behavioral pattern, but does instantly have harmful toxic behavior. They can make a choice to do something behaviorally that is toxic to the business or the group. They could steal. They could harass other people. They could do things and that in and of itself is a very stark and separate definition, right?
Stephanie Goss:
And so for me, when I started thinking about it and we were getting ready for this episode, I was like, “I really think we need to look at how are we using that word.” And so I really like what you said about leeching out into all of the other things, because I do think that there's… You have to look at the impact to others. To the team, to other people in the company that your company touches and also to the organization itself.
Andy:
Yeah. Well having negative thoughts and feelings or being frustrated, that's being human.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy:
That's not an awful thing. We all have those times.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy:
Being frustrated and conducting yourself professionally is a feat of strength. That is something to be respected because everybody does it. And so getting angry or upset or frustrated, that's not failure. That's not a bad thing. It really is what do you do with that? Do you hold onto it? Do you express it in a positive, productive, or just healthy way? Or do you take it and spread it around and sort of undermine what's going on around you? So back to sort of our assessment, the first part is the a-hole rule. Am I beefing with multiple people then it's probably me.
Andy:
The other one is a straight up self behavior analysis and this is just at the end of the day, stopping for a second and saying, “Okay, what are behaviors that make people toxic?” It's cynicism, it's negativity, right? It's saying hurtful things to people, or just saying negative things to people. It's making fun of things. It's gossiping, it's refusing to participate. It's those types of behaviors. So we all know where they were honestly, and this is why it's hard for the individual to change, do a self-assessment. At the end of the day, what toxic behaviors did you do today? And we all probably do something during a day. You know what I mean? If you were like, “Oh, I did gossip this morning.” Note that, and try to do better. It doesn't mean you're a toxic person, but if you come up with five toxic things you did today, and tomorrow, you're going to come up with three or four more.
Andy:
You need to take note of that. And a lot of it is just having the wherewithal to say, “I sat in the staff meeting and I crossed my arms and I did not participate. And when it was over, I told Stephanie that I thought the meeting was stupid. And I said that.” Do you have enough self-awareness to look at yourself that way and realize that you made that decision. Did I act in a passive-aggressive way? Someone asked me my opinion, I told them, “It was fine.” Was I being passive-aggressive? And it's just straight up asking yourself honestly. What did I do here? Here's the balance, right? “What did I do to make the lives of the people around me better and happier to make the practice more positive? And then what did I do that would shine a negative light on people around me or the practice or the things going on there.” And if you're way out of balance, you need to recognize that and start to make a change.
Andy:
I don't think she minds me telling the story. I've said it a number of times, it happened a long time ago, but I do. I remember my wife who is a very positive, very, very strong person. She was hanging around with someone from a place that she was working early on, who just had a very cynical sense of humor and was just sarcastic. And I remember it affected her. And at one point I said to her, I was, “Hey, you seem really unhappy because every time you bring up work, you mention these things that are not nice or not fun, or that bother you or make you angry.”
Andy:
And she started, she thought about it and she looked at it and she said, “You know what? You are right. I'm saying all these negative things and I actually like my job.” And she noticed that in the end, the answer for her was to distance herself from this person who kind of lived in that headspace. But it was something amazing that I saw in my life with someone being self-aware enough to recognize their behaviors when they were sort of pointed out and go, “Oh my gosh, I'm doing this and I'm don't want to do it. And so I'm going to make a change.” And she did. But I just think when I talk about what is your behavioral self assessment, that's what I'm referring to is looking around and going, “Man, I make a lot of cutting jokes about our practice and they're not uplifting their they're kind of down pushing.”
Stephanie Goss:
And I think the other piece of that that's important because the whole point is that you're self reflecting. So nobody's going to judge you for it. It's your own thoughts. I think it's also really important to look at not just your behaviors but your thoughts, because to your point earlier, you maybe in a situation where you are containing yourself outwardly, but I know I have been in this space where I go to work and I'm keeping it together. And if you asked my team, they would've said my usual self, maybe a little quiet or the normal, but I wasn't outwardly doing anything. But if you asked me to self reflect on the inside, like the negativity and the negative talk, the conversation I was having with myself in my head.
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I would've told you, “Oh yeah, this is not so great.” Because I hit all of your points on the self-assessment. I just wasn't doing any of it out loud. I was sitting in a staff meeting going, “This is a freaking joke. Why are we having this meeting?” So I think it's really important when you are self-reflecting to look at it from both sides of the coin, because I think you can absolutely be having that conversation in your head and that negativity is renting space in there, but it's just not spilled out in an outward way where people can see it yet.
Andy:
I think that head conversation, I think that's a stepping stone to toxic behaviors.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
There's that quote from Lao Tzu that I love. And I may not get exactly right, but basically it's, “Beware your thoughts they become your words. Beware your words because they become your actions. Beware your actions because they become your habits. Beware your habits because it becomes your character. Beware your character, it becomes your destiny.” but that first part of your thoughts, they go first.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy:
And then the next part is the manifestation of those thoughts and I think it's probably only a matter of time. So when you catch yourself having those thoughts, I call it the headspace hand break is when I catch myself arguing with an imaginary person in the shower. That's a flag for me.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
I'm like, “Why am I in this combative headspace?”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
And if you find yourself in that space again, and again, and again-
Stephanie Goss:
That's when I know it's time for therapy.
Andy:
… I was going to say something needs to change.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
There is something going on that needs to be addressed because even if I'm not undermining the team, which is good. I don't want to live in a negative headspace.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
And if this is a place that I'm saying whether it's because of something that's going on in my practice or because of something that's going on internally with me, I need to take steps to deal with those things. And the last part of headspace that I would say for this is when you have these revelations, right? When you look at this and you go, “Oh my God, I think it's me. I think I am. At least living in this negative headspace, if not yet manifesting it.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy:
This is not a, “I'm going to wake up tomorrow and this problem is going to be over. I'm going to stop.” This is going to be a path back. So resolve yourself to working back to a positive place and just know, “Oh, you know what, I'm going to put one foot in front of the other and I'm going to start getting better and getting more positive. And it's going to take some time.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think that's part of it because I think it becomes much easier for other people to give you grace when you start with yourself because we're all our own worst critics. And if you're beating yourself up, your behavior is not going to change as much outwardly for other people to be able to see it and acknowledge it as well. So it's got to start with you and it won't happen overnight.
Andy:
No, I agree. You got anything to add to headspace?
Stephanie Goss:
No. You want to take a break and then… Okay. Well for writer, they feel like this might be where they're sitting. What do we do with it?
Andy:
Yeah. We can work on that. Let's take a break.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. Hey everybody, this is Stephanie and I'm going to jump in here for one quick second and make sure that you know about a few things that are coming up that I'm pretty sure you're not going to want to miss, but before I do that, I have to say thank you. Thanks to a generous gift from our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital, we are now able to provide transcripts for all of our podcast episodes. And we have to just say, thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Andy and I have wanted to make the podcast more accessible, and when we were pondering the idea of how do we make transcripts a thing our friends at Bandfield stepped up in a big way and said, “Hey, we are striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the profession. This fits with that mission for us. And we would love to sponsor it.”
Stephanie Goss:
So the 2022 podcast episodes are all now being transcribed and brought to you by our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital, to check out the transcript and find out more about what Banfield is doing to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the vet profession. Head over to unchartedvet.com/blog and you can find each one of the podcast episodes and a link to find out more about equity, inclusion and diversity at Bandfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Now, Hey, party people. I am going to jump in here for one quick second and make sure that you know about a workshop that is coming up. It is called Navigating Neurodiversity, Your Clients, Coworkers, and Self. And it is with the amazing Dr. Amanda Doran. Amanda is an Uncharted member. She is a wonderfully kind and funny person, and she is going to be leading us through a conversation about learning how to navigate interactions with different individuals and creating a culture within our practices that is both supportive of and inclusive of neurodiversity.
Stephanie Goss:
It is a really, really important topic. It is one that I think needs to have a lot more discussion in veterinary medicine. And we are really excited to be bringing this one to you. It is happening on July 27th. It is a 7:00 PM Eastern session so it is two hours. It will be over at 9:00 PM Eastern, which means 4:00 to 6:00 PM Pacific time. And it is $99 for members of the public. And it is free as always for our Uncharted members. And this workshop is awesome. We also have more coming up throughout the summer and the calendar at unchartedvet.com/events is constantly being updated. I encourage you if you are not currently an Uncharted member to head on over to the website, check out what's coming up and remember that all of our workshops like this are free for our Uncharted members. And now back to the podcast.
Andy:
All right, well, let's talk about some action steps. So we've talked a bit about, am I the toxic person, if I am, does happen mean I'm doomed and I hope we've come to a good healthy place on that. We need now to do a little root cause analysis.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy:
And so if I'm, I can control how I react to it, to the situation, and if I'm reacting in a toxic way, I'm going to fix that. But I also owe it to myself to get into a healthy place where I'm not just suppressing negative emotions that I'm having because I don't want to keep working in a place where I'm going to have these negative emotions again and again and again.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy:
Part of it just comes from deciding how you're going to respond and deciding that you want to, there's the phrase, “Choose happy.” And it gets crapped on a lot.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
But it really does work and a lot of times we choose kind of how we respond to our situation. One of the things I want to point out just from this letter, and this is something that I have wrestled with in my life, okay? Is the idea of should.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy:
Should is a dangerous word that sets a lot of us up for frustration. And when we start thinking about what people should do and what the practice should do and how things should be done and how clients should behave.
Stephanie Goss:
There's a lot of potential disappointment in there.
Andy:
There is so much potential disappointment and no control. No control. I can't make the practice do anything, I mean, the clients do anything. One of the things that I learned in my life that was super helpful is to try to take the word should out of my vocabulary because it doesn't matter what the practice should do. All that matters is what they are doing or what they're going to do or what say they going to do-
Stephanie Goss:
Or can do. Yeah.
Andy:
… and what they can do.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Andy:
So thinking about what they should do is not helpful.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
And I think that we should set that aside because that makes people frustrated. And so I think that we can go to the practice and say, “Hey, there's a problem that I see. I have some ideas on how we might move forward in a different way. Can I present those to you? Or would you be open talking about them? No. Okay. All right.”
Andy:
And then I go away and it doesn't help me to say, “Well, they should listened to me.” That doesn't help, but I go away and say, “You know what, I presented them with a problem and with solutions and they didn't want to talk to me.” And that's where we are and I am going to make decisions not based on what they should do, but based on the reality of the situation. So I always try to want to point that out and just say, “Hey, there's lots of things the practice should do, but you should not sit and think about what they should do. You should make peace with the fact that they didn't do it, or they did do it and they will continue to do it and what is possible doesn't matter.” And I think that causes a lot of pain in a lot of different areas. We've all worked with someone and you say, “Man, she should just be more positive and this will-
Stephanie Goss:
Everything will be fine.
Andy:
… all be better.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
Exactly. “She should just get along with the other person. And if she did, then this would all be great.” You know what she's not getting along with the other person and we have discussed it and she's not going to get along with the other person. And so dwelling on what they should do and how things should be it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't help.
Stephanie Goss:
And I just want to point out, you're starting with the frog here, because this is probably the hardest of all of the things we're going to talk about to do.
Andy:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
Because it's a radical mind frame shift, and it is something that has to be a repeated conscious behavioral choice to change from thinking and shoulds to thinkings in cans or mights, or maybes when you're trying to eliminate that is, again it's not one of those things that happens overnight. And it's something you have to tell yourself and because you will slip up and you will… And even when you've been practicing that for a long period of time, you will still have times where you're just like, “Ugh.” And it just comes out and it takes practice and conscious effort on your part to reign it, to rein it in and make the change.
Stephanie Goss:
I'll tell you guys on a personal level, on a really similar way since I first started in veterinary medicine, I took a class and I learned about the concept of transformational vocabulary. And it's what you're talking about, Andy. It's about taking a word that generally has a negative connotation and flipping it around so that you're using things that come from a positive perspective and a really big one and also a very difficult one for me was the word but.
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Not in the anatomical sense, right. So think about how many times in a day I say, but this, but that, and what I realized is that when you say the word but it does have a very negative connotation and most of the time people stop listening because they feel like you're just no one and when you hear it, when you're receiving it in the sentence, if somebody says to me, “But Stephanie.” I disconnect from that because I feel like they're going to dismiss whatever I said, because they've put the but in there. And there's a whole backstory behind it, but our team at the time was having a significant challenge with some negativity and so one of the things that we chose to tackle was the word but.
Stephanie Goss:
It wasn't just me. We were all in. The whole team was working on this and I'll tell you guys, every single day I caught myself but-ing all over the place and it… Should tell you, it takes time and it takes practice. And so I've been in veterinarian medicine almost 20 years now and I still catch myself saying, “But.” And the change for us was instead of saying but we're going to say and. So it's, “Andy, I can do that and here's more information that I need you to have.” It changes the sentence from, “Okay but.” And it has a very different feel to it. And I've been doing this for that long and I still catch myself regularly. And I'm like, “But I mean and. Yes and.”
Andy:
Yes and [crosstalk 00:39:06].
Stephanie Goss:
It is hard and so don't… The reason that I'm started this part of the conversation was don't beat yourself up because you will fail and you will fail again and again and again. And the thing that makes all the difference in the world is the intention that you put behind it on a personal level. And so if you're trying to make that change to should, I think when we're talking about toxicity, it's really, really important, and it's a very hard thing to do. If you get started and you're in a role, and then you slide back into thinking in the context of shoulds like, “Oh, if she would only do this.” “If only the client… I wish they should do this. Why aren't they doing it?”
Stephanie Goss:
If you find yourself thinking that it's going to happen and give yourself the grace to say, “oh, okay.”
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
But also know that you were in… See, I just did it, and know that you were in control of it and you can change that.
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
You can make the conscious choice to say, “Okay, I did it and I'm going to reframe that thought for myself.”
Andy:
Yeah. We can all work on our buts.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. We can all work on our buts.
Andy:
We can all work on our buts.
Stephanie Goss:
Life lessons from Stephanie Gosk for the week.
Andy:
That's right.
Stephanie Goss:
We can all work on our buts.
Andy:
Yep. And playing with your doodles, good things so. That's Andrew works lesson. Oh God.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh. This episode definitely needs a disclaimer at the front of it. All right.
Andy:
I'm sorry. I couldn't, I was like, “You should just let that go.” And I just look at you.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Okay.
Andy:
That nine year old living me was like, “Nope.”
Stephanie Goss:
That's fantastic. So we ate the frog, right? [crosstalk 00:40:38] The should is the big, big piece of it. Okay. So then if we let go of the should and we recognize we have no control and people are not going to do what we want them to necessarily, and we can't influence that and we can't change that.
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
We can control ourselves if we tackle that piece from an action perspective, and we start looking at things from what do I have direct control over what can I change then what else do we need to think of from the plan attack?
Andy:
Yeah. I want to make a bigger deal out of what you just said. So yeah, I do think there's the mindset. And then there really is the, “What do I have direct control over what can I change?” And that's it. Just say, “What do I not need approval to do here? What ownership do I have?” And that's the way that I work up the cases. The way I go into the exam room. The way I treat the technicians. You know what I mean, the way that I work with the clients. I have great control over a lot of things. Can I be happy with just the things I have control over? And really thinking about what do we actually control and leading into that a lot of times that can give us the outlet that we need to feel like we have some control, like we have some autonomy.
Andy:
And so think about the autonomy that you do have, and a lot of times that can be sort of a salve for the irritation of working inside of a system that's not perfect. I want to talk about the three sort of pieces of advice I tend to give people when they're trying to get an organization to change with them, right? And so you've got some ideas and you see some ways to move forward. Three pieces of advice, number one is start small in your asks. I think a lot of times people go, “I never ask for anything and this is the one thing that I want and it's a huge thing.” And they get frustrated.
Stephanie Goss:
I never asked for anything, but I just asked for a $60,000 ultrasound machine. And they said no.
Andy:
And they said, no, how could they do that? And I go, “Okay.” It's like buying something on credit when you've never used your credit card before.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
You have no credit.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
Start small in your asks. Are there little things that would be fairly easy for them to do that would make your life better or the life of the staff better?
Stephanie Goss:
Can you buy them a printer?
Andy:
Exactly right. Well, I love your story about that of coming into the new job and saying, “What can I do in the front desk? We need a printer.” And you went at lunchtime and bought it. And they were like, “This is amazing.” Those are the things that you go, “This is a $75 ask. Can we just do this.” But are there small wins that we can get, right?
Andy:
Number two is lean into pilot programs. If you go and you make an ask and it requires the whole hospital changing, that's scary. It's a much easier ask to say, “Can I do this just from me and my tax for six weeks and try it out and see how it goes. Is that possible?”
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Andy:
And to make the stakes slow, make the ask small. Then the last thing is align your programs with the company motivators. And if they are trying to increase senior wellness visits, how does the thing that you want fit into senior wellness? If you want to update your anesthesia protocols, how does that translate into dental health as the company says, “We're prioritizing dental in the next quarter.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy:
Right? Just take a moment to think about what the management leadership is going to care about and think about how your ideas could support and improve their ideas. Ideally, what I really want is I want to not worry about the credit. I just want the change to happy so my life is better. And so I would like to take an idea to my manager and give it to him or to her and say, “What do you think about this?”
Andy:
And I would like for them to take that idea, get excited about it because it matches up with the initiative that they're being asked to carry, and then let them turn around and hand it up the chain of their boss and go, “Look at this idea.” And let them have the credit. That's fine. I get to do the thing that I want to do, but that's only going to happen if I can go. And they may not have the vision to see what I want intersects with what they want, but if I can help them see how this is going to help them meet the requirements that are being put upon them. A lot of times I can get them much more excited than I would otherwise be able to.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think those are great. And then I think the last thing for a plan of attack from our writer was really they were like, “I feel stuck because I know that I could of course go somewhere else and there's all these things that impact that and it's a choice.” And I appreciated that they clearly had been listening and had recognized that we said, “Look, you were in control of this and there's one way that you can choose to go.” And I think being an associate, whether you're associate veterinarian, whether you're a member of the paraprofessional staff, when you are not the business owner, you have to recognize that you are not in full control but to your point, there are still a lot of things that you can control, and I think too often we overlook those. And at the end of the day, ultimately the last thing in terms of deciding, “Am I going to… Is this the right environment for me? Or am I toxic because of the environment.”
Stephanie Goss:
There's two pieces that I have to look at which is if you're not in control and someone else is when the same things happen over and over and over again, at some point it's not a surprise anymore. It's your business model. And so if you're an associate vet or you're paraprofessional staff member, and you have been asking for change, or you have been, there are things that the owners have been blatantly brought, had awareness brought to them about. Doesn't matter what it is when it's repeated over and over and over again, it doesn't change that. At some point you need to recognize, “Okay, I recognize these trees. I think we've been in this forest. This is not going to necessarily change.”
Stephanie Goss:
And so then you have to start looking internally about what control do I have here? Can I live with this? And this goes to something you and I talked about quite regularly, which is you got to pick your poison. So can I live with this? How much does this really bother me? Can I live with it? Can I deal with it? Can we compromise? Can I have a small change that will make me feel immensely better? And I'm just going to let the rest of it go or ultimately, is this a thing or are these a series of things that if they don't change I can't live with because if that's the case, the control is solely in your hands.
Stephanie Goss:
You can stay where you are and you can be miserable. Go somewhere else and maybe you have it different but only you can control that. And so I think from the plan of attack, I think it feels very optimistic to me, even when someone is recognizing that they may be feeling kind of toxic where they're at, because realistically there is a lot of this that is within their control. And I think it takes the self-reflection, like you said to look at it and figure out how do I feel about this? What do I need here? What am I going to do about it? And it may still ultimately mean a change which is scary. And it's why most of us are just like, “Well, I don't want to have to leave my job.” Well, I get that and what if you leaving your job is the best thing for you or for your family.
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
You still have choice there and I think that's really important. And really for me, let me look at it through a positive lens, right?
Andy:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I could change it around. Doesn't have to be final. You were talking earlier about the self-assessment if I'm recognizing as our writer is I am feeling this way, it is not terminal. It does not mean that you need to be sent off the island. You can still make the choice to change things.
Andy:
Our job is a relationship. I say that all the time.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
But I really do. That's how I look at it. Our job is a relationship. And if you're in a relationship and you go through the process of acceptance of the other person and the reality of the relationship, and you look at yourself and you say, “What am I doing to contribute to the problems in this relationship and how can I change them?” And you do both of those things and you look at the relationship and say, “I have tried acceptance and I have looked at my own role in this and tried to make amends for it and tried to correct the behaviors that I was doing that were contributing to the toxicity relationship.” You then after that say, “I've done these things, is this relationship worth being in.” And then you've ultimately, you don't have control of the other side of the person in a relationship.
Andy:
And if you have told that person what you need or told them, meaning your job, what you need and what you need to be happy, and you have tried to do the things on your side that you can, and they're not willing to meet you where you need to be, and they're not going to meet your needs that you need to do what's what's right for you, and that's probably leaving the relationship and hey, leaving relationships is not fun. I'm not just like, “Hey, I want to get out of this.” And anyone who's been in a great long term relationship can tell you that they take work.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Right.
Andy:
And they take sacrifice. I mean, I can give you a bunch of Ruth Bader Ginsburg quotes. I'm doing a lot of quotes today. Ruth Bader Ginsburg quotes I love. One of hers was, “Marriage is 60/40 both ways.” And I love that. The idea that everyone feels like they're giving more in a relationship, that's just what it means to be in a relationship.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
And the other thing that Ruth said was, “In marriage, it's good to be a little bit deaf.” And I think that goes to the acceptance as sometimes you're just like, “Yep. I'm going to pretend that I didn't hear this. And I'm just going to go on and just be happy in what I'm doing.” And I think all that's true, but at some point you look at the relationship and if it's not what you need then you have the choice of staying in this relationship or leaving the relationship and if you're going to be angry every day that you're in a relationship, God, a good divorce beats a bad marriage.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy:
That's kind of it. And man, there's a lot of metaphors today from that. But anyway, you get the idea that is really how I see it. But start with yourself and the things you can control, which is what is your headspace? What changes can you make in your behaviors to make this all better? How can you communicate your needs in a more productive way? And ultimately if you do all those things and your needs are still not being met and you are frustrated every day, I'm sorry, but I think you're going to need to make a change because you only get to go through this life one time and you don't want to be miserable five days a week.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Not at all.
Andy:
Awesome. Well, thanks for talking to this with me.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. This was a good one. I hope you guys enjoyed it. Have a fantastic week everybody.
Andy:
Yeah. Everybody take care of yourselves.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, that's wrap on another episode of the podcast and as always this was so fun to dive into the Mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the Mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have a stock about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the Mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag or you can email us at podcast at unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
Facebook Comments