This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…
Have you ever worked somewhere that the team felt frustrated at the lack of accountability for repeated mistakes and the drastic differences in work ethic between staff members? When frustration like this extends over time, the result can be cultivating an office environment with a huge increase in tension, gossip, and bickering. Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss tackle a mailbag question from a veterinary technician who is grappling with a hospital environment like this. They feel like their practice owner and manager haven't really addressed things from the perspective of the team but this tech feels they might be open to suggestions on what to do and how to approach the situation. Our vet tech says they are “not really sure where to even start with coming up with an overhaul in training/rewards/consequences..” and asked for input from Andy and Stephanie. These are great questions and common challenges we are excited to talk about so let’s get into this…
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss. You got second to talk about GuardianVets?
Stephaine Goss:
Yeah, what do you want to talk about?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed because the phones never stop ringing.
Stephaine Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I'm sure you hear from these people, as well. Like, “Our caseload is blowing up and the doctors are busy and the phones just don't stop.”
Stephaine Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip the switch and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk, and they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments and give them support, and it really is a godsend.
Stephaine Goss:
Pre-pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after-hours call help, but at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that they are offering help during the daytime as well, which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices because everybody is shorthanded. Everybody is drowning in phone calls, and so we talk about it. We've talked about GuardianVets a lot on the podcast, and every time we do, we always get somebody who says, “What is that?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use some help on the phones or up the front desk, check them out. It's guardianvets.com and if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So check it out, guardianvets.com.
Stephaine Goss:
Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are diving into another letter from the mailbag. It came to us from a technician who is a senior technician in their practice and they are struggling with feeling like they're in a practice where they have a manager entitled, but they maybe are not actually doing what should be done as a manager and this goes to talking about addressing behavior, bad behavior on the team, accountability, consequences, policies, procedures, protocols, culture as well. This one is a big giant can of worms and Andy and I had so much fun opening it and diving in. Let's get into this one.
Meg:
And now, the Uncharted podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back it's me, Dr. Andy Rourke and Stephanie gossiping folk Goss. Some Missy Elliot gossip. I'm not going to rap like Missy Elliot does not because it can't just because no one will listen to the rest of the podcast. So I'll just be like, “Play that again. Rewind that.” So we can hear Andy rap like Missy Elliot. Hello there Stephanie Goss, how are you?
Stephaine Goss:
I'm good. How are you?
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm good. My pitiful dog is stuffing his face between the arm of the chair and my leg. You know what I mean? His golden retriever part is coming out. He's a love sponge. He's not good, but he is a love sponge. Don't stop petting me, dad. Well yeah, and let's just be honest. He has reason to be concerned because he's feeling insecure and he should be because his position was definitely threatened recently. So I took Allison, we went hiking and we drove up to this trail.
Stephaine Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's up, it's up near Bristol, Tennessee and it's called the Devil's Bathtub and it was this awesome trip. It was like eight or nine miles long, but you have to cross the Creek like 10 times, so you have to take your boots off and everything.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So anyway, so I am not taking this fluffy, goofy dog, but he's being boarded as Allison and I take full advantage of our kids being at camp for the last time of the summer. So we go up there and we get to the trail hit and I get out of the car and this dog, he was some sort of a rat terrier mutt. He comes tearing up to me like, “Oh man, I've been waiting for you.” I mean you know that experience where they… He came running straight to me like, “I am so glad you're here.”
Stephaine Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And he had a tag that said Bandit on it, and so Bandit was all about hanging out with me and Allison, and so as soon as he comes and he celebrates, he's like, “Let's go.” And Bandit leads the way to the trailhead.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I'm like, “This is kind of weird.”
Stephaine Goss:
Where are your people?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, was like, “Where are your people?” Yeah and he's an intact boy too. So I'm like, “It's not unusable I bet for Bandit to be out.” And so anyway, so bandit decided he was like, “Yep, I'm with you guys. Let's go hiking.” And that dog, Stephanie, he stayed with us for like five hours. He navigated the entire trail all the times we had to cross the stream. He would go down. He knew exactly where he was going. He would run down and then cross over a log that's like 25 yards off the trail, or he would just hop from stone to stone. And it's funny, we'd watch him and would see what stones were loose because he'd jump on some of them they would shake.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I'm like, “Oh, I'm not stepping on that one.” But I told Allison, I was like, “We're like six miles in and I was like we might have a new dog.” And then whenever we stopped to take a snack, he was right there. He was insistent that he also have a snack, and I was like, “This is not your first rodeo.” This dog has 100%, I bet he hikes that trail every day and suckers every day, give him granola bars and all sorts of things and so we got back to the house or to coming back down the trail.
Stephaine Goss:
Didn't his people ever turn up?
Dr. Andy Roark:
No. Oh no. So we're we're we are a half a mile from the end of the trail, and I was like, “Seriously, what are we going to do with this dog?” Do we just drive away and leave this dog?
Stephaine Goss:
Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
He definitely seems to know what he's doing and so anyway, in the last half mile he just started getting farther and farther ahead of us and he didn't even say goodbye, which kind of hurt. It kind of hurt when he didn't look back over his shoulder. He just kind of ultimately left and Allison and I were leaving and we went to the trailhead, we got in a car and as we drove away, he was there laying on a front porch of this little shotgun shack.
Stephaine Goss:
Oh my gosh. How funny.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I was like I bet Bandit's life is greeting people with the trailhead, hiking with them, eating their granola bars and snacks, and then coming home and crashing out at his house. Like I bet that's 100% his life. So anyway.
Stephaine Goss:
Oh my gosh, that's funny.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, so Skips a little bit insecure and he should be because anyway, I am confident Bandit is also not a good guy. Like Bandit is probably aptly named. I think he's a con man the whole way. He was super fun. He's like that friend in college you had. Super fun, cannot be trusted. That's Bandit.
Stephaine Goss:
You already have a dog that cannot be trusted. So adding another one into the mix.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah, totally. Yeah, exactly.
Stephaine Goss:
I can only imagine.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Like a rugged outdoor bad dog. Yeah, I don't need two bad dogs together. They would run cons as a team on me and my wife.
Stephaine Goss:
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So anyway, that's what's going on. So Skipper is still insecure ever since I came home and smelled like Bandit, and oh well. Sometimes you got to get the pressure on. You just be like, “Hey buddy, I could have you replaced in a heartbeat if you eat my sandwich off the countertop again.” 100%, you know how many dogs would love to live in this house with me? You better get your stuff in line.
Stephaine Goss:
Get it together Skipper.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, that's right.
Stephaine Goss:
Oh man. Well, I'm excited we have a great mailbag question today or series of questions. So we got a letter from someone who is a technician and they have been at their practice for six years and they have kind of grown in their role after having joined the practice as a technician, and now are one of the senior techs on the team and they love surgery and they love their team. They love the overall experience at their practice. There's a lot of good. They're really struggling because there seems to be a big problem and it has to do with what they say is a lack of structure, and that's one of the questions I want us to dive into. I think they do have a manager, but it sounds like maybe this manager, the actual job for this manager is maybe not practice manager.
Stephaine Goss:
So we're not super confident on what their responsibilities or the level of duties being assigned to this person, but they do have a manager and they are not actually managing because there is a lot of lack of accountability with the team when it comes to the jobs. So when mistakes get made, things happen over and over again. Doesn't seem like anybody's really held accountable and then sometimes there's consequences, sometimes there's not. They said sometimes someone has been talked to about issues and nothing seems to be getting done, and then other times people are randomly let go and nobody sure is this an accountability thing, is it not? So there's that challenge and then in addition to that, that has been helping cultivate in an environment where there is tension and gossiping and backstabbing, bickering kind of behavior amongst the team, right?
Stephaine Goss:
Because people are not being treated the same and everybody is seeing that, and so they said, “Well, the practice owner and our manager, haven't really dealt with it and I do feel like I have a good relationship with them, and I feel like they might be open to trying to put some policies and protocols in place.” They're not doing that on their own and so could I suggest things to them that might be helpful? And they said, “I'm not a manager, I haven't been trained and so I don't even know where to start.” And in particular where to start when it comes to overhauling training, rewards, consequences, those kind of things because that's where they see the challenge in this, and so they were asking if we had any input or advice because they would take it all.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Let me tell you what I love about this format is when things come to the mail bag, they generally, by the time I see them, they get to my desk, the identifying information has already been stripped out of them, which means I have no idea who writes to us and I really kind of like it because then I can always just say, “Look, I don't know what's going on your practice.” I don't have any idea who this is. I just read what you send me and take that as the full context that I have and then I tell you what I think. And I have the feeling if someone came up to me and spoke to me and said to me directly, this is what's going on. I would really have to balance their feelings a lot more. You know what I mean?
Dr. Andy Roark:
And things like that, but when I'm like, “Look, I just read what was there and I told you what I thought.” And I don't know what else is going. I don't know what the story is.,I'm not there. I haven't seen your practice. If I have seen your practice, I don't know your practice you're talking about, and it liberates me to be much more honest and candid than I would ever be. If someone raised their hand at a lecture in front of 300 other people and were like, “What do you think about this?” And I'd be like, “Oh boy.” I have to make sure I take care of this person who's been brave enough to ask me a question, and so with all that said, let me just say at the very beginning, everything in this letter could be 100% accurate and starting in about three minutes, I'm going to act like it is and go based on that belief. Between now and then I'm going to point out.
Stephaine Goss:
I can't wait to see where this is going.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah and again, this might mean absolutely nothing and I don't want to even get upset or anything. Whenever I see a letter that comes and it says, “This is my first practice that I've been at.” There's immediately some flags for me about questions, right? And again, and so the writer here is like, “Hey, this is my first practice and I've been there for a number of years and this is what I see.” And I always point this out because when people ask about management stuff is if you've only worked it one practice and you've only seen things one way, there's always the possibility that the grass is greener on the other side and again, I'll come back to this, or what you think, you go, “That can't be normal.” And the truth is that's 100% normal. All practices are are in the same weird boat and do these annoying things.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so I have to just put that out of like, “No one's held accountable and people disappear, and blah.” And I go, “Okay, if this is the first practice that you've been in, it is quite possible that what we're seeing is the normal level of people not being held accountable and just trying to make a business go.” And so I don't have enough information to know whether what we're perceiving is really truly over the top or if this is a normal level of dysfunction of an American business. American or Canadian business. Does that make sense why I say that?
Stephaine Goss:
It totally does and I think you're not wrong. That's one of those things where one of the biggest pieces of advice that I give to people is work at more than one practice. Even if you love your practice, spread your wings, girlfriend or guy because whoever you are, you got to get out there and you got to experience things because every practice is different and there are so many different ways to do it, and only with that experience and seeing you… Three things can happen. You can go somewhere else and the grass can be greener and you can recognize, “Oh, that was a mess and there really is a better way to do this.” You can also go somewhere else and realize, “Oh my God, this other place is so much more of a dumpster fire. We actually had our shit kind of more together than we thought we did.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephaine Goss:
Sometimes that's a surprise and I think your point is a solid one, which is a lot of the times you go other places and you recognize this is a variation on a theme, and everybody really struggles with some of these issues.” And it is actually yeah normal and it falls… If you imagine normal like a shade of gray, there's lots of different shades to it, right? And there could be things that are more normal and less normal and so I think this is one of those things where you're not wrong. It is worth recognizing that every practice goes through this at some point or another.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Totally. Well and so I just wanted say that and that's why I said we're going to take about three minutes here just to call out and go whenever I see somebody who works in one practice and they say this is abnormal and these are not meeting standards, I always go. Hm, I don't know. I try to kind of gauge this and say okay, is this the grass is greener. I haven't worked other places and so I think that we're doing bad, but maybe we're not doing bad. I always like to put that up front and say, “I don't know this practice. I don't know this person.” From now on, I'm going to assume that the level of transgressions that we're talking about exceed, well, what is normal? And we're going to spend the rest of the episode going on about that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But I always just like to call that at the beginning and go sometimes people don't get held accountable or it doesn't feel like they get held accountable, and sometimes there's not a plan, and sometimes there's chaos and sometimes we're not privy to the conversations that happen behind the scenes. And there's a certain level of that, that's just normal. I'm just going to go forward and making the assumption that we are beyond that, but it's just important to call it out just so that when people start to talk about these things, they don't immediately jump to this is awful, or Andy says that no one should ever be uninformed about what is happening. I go, “Okay, that's not what I'm trying to say.”
Stephaine Goss:
Okay and I would agree with you, and I think for me, there's a big split here in both of us say should is a very dangerous word, right? And there are two things here. One is HR related and disciplinary and what does accountability look like, right? And the other is cultural, is teamwork, is gossiping, is bickering, is talking behind each other's backs, right? And those two things can be tied together and at the end of the day, the hospital leadership should be responsible for both of those things, and as a team member who is a leader within the practice, but not necessarily the manager, you have a responsibility when it comes to the cultural piece as much as your leaders do when it comes to the HR piece, and the rules and protocols and policies and all the accountability piece. That is something that you can help and support and be a part of, but I'm glad you brought up the point Andy, that it's HR related, right?
Stephaine Goss:
So it will always live in a world of gray because you cannot know everything. You are not in a position where legally, you should know all of the things, and so that's one of those things where there's a split here for me and there's two separate issues to be talked about, but I think from a head space perspective, the important part for me is what you said, which is that when it comes to the HR stuff, you just have to remember that you are never going to know all of the things nor should you know all of the things, and so you have to start from a place of assuming good intent because you don't know the whole story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yep. Totally. All right, I love that and that's the opening head space place I think is let's just put it on the table and say a lot of this stuff sounds like HR issues because we're looking at management and we're questioning HR policies and procedures. No, I'm sure this varies by the state. You and I speak nationally and internationally to people so we tend to speak in the most rigorous of terms. You are not supposed to know what is going on from a disciplinary standpoint with other people in the practice. You're not supposed to know that. It may look like people are just getting verbal warnings, and then one day they're being fired. There may be a robust process going on behind the scenes of writing people up of corrective plans. It is illegal for the people doing that to let the practice know that's what they're doing.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so you might say, “No, I am very aware that these things are not happening.” I just always put that forward and say just know that you are not going to be privy to all the things that are happening and that's a frustrating thing and we talk to employees all the time who go, “I make these reports and I tell people what is happening and this is going on and they say, okay, and then nothing seems to happen.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I always have to try to talk those people down and go, “Hey, I don't know what's happening. You can assume good intent and believe that a lot more is happening than what you know about, and the company, the business, the practice is not allowed to give you updates or tell you what they're doing.” They simply cannot do that, and so there is some of that. So I think know that's the thing. Come with a positive outlook and believe that, “Hey, maybe there's a lot of things going on that I don't know about and that may be going on.” And so that's just a good positive head space to start from.
Stephaine Goss:
Yeah, I love it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So start with empathy is the other thing, and I say this, and I hate you say start with empathy because I am the boss who tries to run the show and you try to make a great place for people to work that's not a military installation where there are rules and drill sergeants yelling at people, do this, don't do that, and there are punishments being meted out. And at the same time, people still need to treat each other in the ways that mash up with the core values, and they need to treat each other in ways that are professional and in ways that get work done. And so it's always that balance and I just have to say that as a business owner, I don't think people generally realize how hard that balance is to strike of this is not a police state.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And at the same time, we still need people to do what they say they're going to do and treat each other with respect, and so man, that balance is really hard to strike and it's easy to stand in a place and say, “Boy, we should have more structure. We have more accountability.” And then it's also easy to have too much and go, “Oh, this is awful. We can't do anything. We're being in trouble all the time. My boss just rides me. I'm getting written up for everything.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
I've seen both of those scenarios and everybody who's managing a practice is trying to balance those things and so there is some giving grace. That doesn't mean that we don't need to fix things because we all, we always need to work on them, but again, this is just about giving grace, starting from a place of empathy and saying, “I bet these people who are managing the practice are doing their best and they're doing their best.” And they push in one way and then there's push back and they sort of wrestle back and forth with that, but anyway, that helps me get into a positive healthy space where then I can start thinking about what am I going to do in this situation? But I don't know. That's about it for me for Headspace.
Stephaine Goss:
I think the other piece of empathy, I'm glad you said that and the piece that I would tie to that is as a team member, in veterinary medicine, one of the best pieces of advice that I could give is something that I learned the hard way, which is that I don't know, I wish there was an actual percent, but I'm just going to give you Stephanie's gut sense.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Sure, shoot it.
Stephaine Goss:
90%. I would say 90% of the people in veterinary medicine who are running practices as either a manager, owner, medical director, combination of all of the above have no formal training in business and leadership. It's really high, say 90, maybe it's less than that. Vets went to school to be vets. They didn't go to school, the vast majority of them to be MBAs. We have some doctors who are vets and who have their lodge degree or whatever, and have supplementary education that supports it, but there are way more managers and practice owners in veterinary medicine that don't have that kind of education and support than there are managers who do, and so one of the things that I always tell the team is when it comes to getting into that head space, just taking a step back and remembering that it makes it so much easier for me to assume good intent, because we don't know what we don't know as human beings.
Stephaine Goss:
And if I can look at somebody and be like, “Oh, Andy went to vet school, he didn't spend all that time learning the ins and outs of HR and management, that's its own separate degree.” Right? And so if I think about it in that context, it becomes a lot easier to ratchet down my frustration or anger or whatever to a level that feels manageable sometimes, and so I agree with you, I think the big part of the head space for me is that you have to start with empathy and that makes it easier for me I think to start with that empathy, because I can look at them as a person and be like, “Yeah, it's easy to give you the benefit of the doubt. You didn't go to school for this.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I think that's super important. I really like that a lot. The last thing about head space that I want to put honestly, I'm done with head space, but there's one more thing I want to put on just as I'm thinking about our action steps that's what thinking ahead is there's a bunch of things going on here, right? There is accountability, they said there's not a lot of structure, there's gossip, there's these people not only getting verbal warnings and then being let go, and there's a lot of different things here and so know that there's a lot of different things going on in this question about what's happening, and again, Rome wasn't built in a day and this is not one question of how do I get my practice organized so all these things goes away.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It sounds like there's a lot of different things going on and we need to make some structural modifications and changes, and that's going to take time because it's not a one tweak, one light switch flipped problem. This is a lot of different things. So again, settle in a little bit with some patients and then let's take a break and then we'll start to work through this, shall we?
Stephaine Goss:
Yeah, sounds good.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey guys, I just want to jump in here real fast and give a shout out to Banfield Pet Hospital for making our transcripts of available. That's right, we have transcripts for the Cone of Shame Vet Podcast and the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast. You can find them at drandyroark.com and at unchartedvet.com. This is a part of their effort to increase inclusivity and accessibility in vet medicine. We couldn't do it without them. I got to say thanks. Thanks for making the content that we put out more available to our colleagues. Guys, that's all I got this time. Let's get back into this.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, let's go ahead and talk about where we are, and let's talk about trying to work this into a reasonable place. My goal coming out of this is to have an action plan for the team I guess is what it would be. What I'd be working for is not to have all the problem solved because there's a bunch of different things going on and I don't have clarity on exactly what that is and it's just too much. So I think when we talk about action steps, my idea is not to build an action plan that solves the problems. My action steps are to build a collection of action steps that will walk us down the path of solving the problems in an organized, ongoing way. That how I'm looking at this. How do you feel about that, Stephanie?
Stephaine Goss:
Yeah, I think I'm heading the same direction you are with where to start because for me, I think some of it, a big piece of it is what are you trying to get out of this? Because there's so there's a lot to unpack. To your point and it is a multi-pronged challenge and so before we can say where do you start? The best question I could give you is what do you want to get out of this?
Dr. Andy Roark:
What does success look like?
Stephaine Goss:
Yeah because if you can't define that for yourself, I don't think you can figure out where to start because where you're going to start is going to depend on that question, and there's a couple different ways they could go, right? But think you got to ask the question.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I like it because it's a big multi tentacle beast problem. This is mixed metaphors. We need to get a North star. Sorry, I'm going to step back and go this a long journey we're talking about. We need a North star. We need to know where ultimately trying to go and that's the first thing is what does this look like when it's done? What do you want the practice to be like? How does that actually look in your mind as far as finding the balance of accountability and autonomy for people to kind of do what they want and to be themselves and express themselves and interact independently, things like that. So where are we trying to go? What does that look like?
Dr. Andy Roark:
So set that North star and so I would start with that. The other thing that I would say is remember the spiral staircase, right? And business is a spiral staircase, which means you're always looking and you're like if I could just get to that next level, everything would be great, and so you work hard and you get to the next level of staircase and it turns and you know what's there? Another staircase and guys, that's life and that's business and there's always going to be next staircase and so just put that in your mind. The big thing for me is North star, what does this look like? What do we want our practice to be like? If you haven't done your core values exercise, I would do your core values exercise. If you don't know what that is, consider getting your leadership to join Uncharted and check out our core values workshop that we do where we figure out what do these people care about?
Dr. Andy Roark:
What does the team care about? What do you want the practice to be from a meaning and purpose standpoint? And when you have those things, it makes your priorities a lot more clear. It makes your action steps a lot more clear. You understand kind of what needs to happen first that's going to make the biggest changes to the things that you care about. As a start, we start with the core values exercise. What is our practice, meaning and purpose? And I guess that's kind of North star as far as where you want to go, but I really would do that exercise because it's going to get everybody speaking the same language. It's going to get everybody talking about where they want to go and what they care about, and once I have my core values, how do you eat an elephant?
Dr. Andy Roark:
The answer is one bite at a time. I would start to pick my priorities of what are we going to tackle first? And then I would just start to chip away at the problem, and I love it's a truthful reality, it's backed up by research, but I love the truth that we as human beings tend to overestimate what we can accomplish in a year and underestimate what we can accomplish in 10 years. It's just know that this is going to feel frustrating as you start to work because it's going to take a lot longer than you think it will, but if you stay at it, in five years, you are not going to believe where you are and how far you've come.
Stephaine Goss:
Yeah, I like that and I agree with you about the North star piece of it and so to help get to that point and to get to the point where you could start to look at core values in some of the things there that are cultural and that require some experience to help set up and facilitate and figure out where do you even start with that? For me, I would start with a brainstorm and kind of a brain dump, and whether you do it on paper or you do it in your head, I would ask our listener or our writer and anybody else who's in this situation to think about what actually is bothering you? What is frustrating about your practice and make a list and write it all down and be as specific as you can.
Stephaine Goss:
Is it how the team is treating each other? Is it that people are getting let go, and you don't know why? Until you pinpoint what is actually bothering you and what's bothering the rest of the team, I think it will be very hard to figure out what that North star is. So that step number one for me is doing that brain dump and trying to actually get it all out and figure that piece out of it because the first piece for me I think falls between that brain dump, which is a personal thing and you can do on your own, right? And the North star, which is going to have to involve the rest of your team. If you're talking about core values in figuring out who you are as a group, there's a step in between there for me for this person, which is something that anybody on the team could do.
Stephaine Goss:
And so our writer said, “Look, we have some challenges with the team, gossiping, feeling like there's tension amongst ourselves, and bickering.” And this is where you don't have to be the manager. You don't have to be a senior technician. Any member of the team could have the daring and the bravery to say, even if it's to one other person, “Hey, I feel like we have been really stressed out. We've been picking at each other lately, validate the scenery and find out do they see it the same way? Are you seeing this in your head one way and everybody else is seeing it differently?” And so for me, it would start with what can I do as a team member in this position and where I'm going with that is trying to figure out why it's happening.
Stephaine Goss:
Because one of the most powerful tools that any member of the team can put in their toolbox is having a set of rules that you guys as a team agree to play by, and that I don't mean rules like what are your policies and procedures and how do people get disciplined for things? What I mean is we're all human beings, we're going to show up at this place and we're going to work together. How do we show up for each other? Do we tolerate talking about each other behind each other's backs? Is that a cultural standard that we have set, and if it is and you want to change it, take someone being brave and speaking up and saying, “Hey, I think that this is a problem.” Right? And that's a really scary place to be because you run the risk that you stand up and you be brave and you say it and no one else backs you up.
Stephaine Goss:
But I pretty much could guarantee you that if you're feeling the way that our writer is feeling, there's probably somebody else on your team who's feeling the same way too, and so it's about taking that step for me, it's about starting with doing some sort of brain work and self work to figure out what is actually bothering you so that you can kind of figure out your plan of attack, and then as far as the cultural stuff goes, I think you're spot on Andy and I would say to this team, they need some work figuring out where to set up their culture and a good in between step for me that doesn't require it coming from a leader is the ability to say, “Hey, I feel like maybe we've been having some gossiping and it doesn't make me feel good. I don't like getting talked about and I don't like talking about other people. Would you guys all be willing to agree that we're not going to talk about each other behind each other's backs?”
Stephaine Goss:
And then say, “Okay, we're going to agree to this.” And I love writing it down and capturing it and putting it up on the wall. It could be as simple as writing it on your board in the treatment board. Maybe it starts with one rule. Maybe it starts with 10, it's different for every team, but being able to say like, “How are we going to show up? How are we going to treat each other at work?” That for me is a place to start with the cultural issues if this team has never done any cultural work before.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I agree. I like that a lot. I think you're right on it. So I think it's funny. I like your approach better than mine. My thought was…
Stephaine Goss:
Wait, let me revel in that for a second.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I like yours better than mine. I would abandon my plan to do your plan. So I was about to start talking about priorities and how we set priorities of the things that we change first, okay? And so we talk about the North star, we talk about the team core values and then I was like, “All right, then we're going to set priorities.” But I really like where you were is if you set the North star and you set the team values and you include the team in those values, then the next smartest thing is not for me as a leader or a leadership team to start hacking away on things. It's to go to the team and say, “What about this really bothers you guys? What changes would you like to make? How do you guys feel? What would you like to do?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And you are always better off to do what the team wants to do as far as making cultural changes because that is where their energy is. The hardest part of making changes as a leader is getting the team energized and bought in and motivated to make those changes, and so the smartest thing, especially when you've got a list of 50 things that you could do, the smartest thing is to say to the team, “What do you guys want to do?” Because that is going to require less management, less motivation, less coaxing, less following up, less holding people accountable than anything else. And so that's why I say I like your idea better than mine. I missed that trick there in the setup. I'm really glad you said that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So the first thing I do is take that list and go to the team and say, “How do you guys feel about this? We're going to focus on one or two things, what would you guys like those things to be?” And then let them do it. At some point, you're going to have to start driving the bus and making decisions yourself about what you want to fix, and when you do that, my sort of shortened, dirty, priority sitting exercise is to say, “Okay, you're looking at these things that you don't like or things you want to fix and you don't know where to start.” The worst thing you can do is not pick something, it's to try to hack away at everything, you'll always feel overwhelmed, you'll always feel like you're failing. It's just too big. You have got to pick a small thing and do it and then pick the next thing and do it, and that's why I said the thing about we overestimate what we can do in a year, underestimate 10 years. You've got to start walking.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You can't stand in the parking lot with Bandit, looking at 15 different trail heads and not deciding where you're going to go. Pick one and walk, and so that quick dirty way is what causes you the most pain, which means what is the thing that is triggering you, that's making you angry, that is causing the most fallout with the pet owners. What is the biggest pain point that you have? Number two, what is the greatest frequency that you have? What is the one that is bothering you every other day, every other day we have a client complaining that they can't get on the schedule. I'd say, “Well, that sounds like a frequency driven issue that we should prioritize.” And the last thing is what can be one and done meaning what is a thing that we can do, and then it's done and everything else benefits from knocking that thing off the list.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So for example, let's say that you have this big list of things that are causing problems, and one of them is the printer is broken and I'm like, “Oh, that's a thing that we can fix today and then the ability to print will help us get everything else done.” And so go fix the printer today. It's low hanging fruit, it's visible, get it done and then print to your heart's content and that will help you get other things done. So those are my things, and again, there's not one that's like, “Oh, take pain over frequency or one and done over the other things.” I think for me, my mindset is if this is a Tetris game, what is the annoying piece that is blocking up all the other pieces?
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm going after those first and then I'm either going to go after what is causing me the most pain or what is happening again and again, and if I could just get it fixed, then that pain would go away and right now, it seems like every time I turn around, I'm dealing with this issue, and so I don't think there's a right answer. I think it very much depends on the circumstances, but I would start using those criteria to pick things off of your list, work on one thing at a time. If you fix one problem a month, you're like, “That takes forever.” It's like, “No, it doesn't.” In 10 months, if you fix 10 cultural problems, you have done an amazing turnaround.
Stephaine Goss:
Yes and I think too, the writer asked, look, I recognize I'm not the boss, I'm not the owner, I'm not the manager, but I feel like they would be open to feedback or suggestions. Lean into that. Have the conversation with them and just saying, “Hey, I've been thinking about this and this is what this is what's really bothering me and I just really would like to know how you guys feel about it because I'm not the leader and this is bothering me. So I can't imagine how you must be feeling about it.” And see if they bite. See if they see if they give you anything. See if they're willing to help you because even if, look, this could turn into a full-time job for you if you let it. Sometimes this is how people become. This is sometimes how people become managers because they can't keep their mouth shut, and that is the story of how Stephanie Goss became a manager because I asked the questions, right?
Stephaine Goss:
And yeah, there's a longer story to it, but this could become a full-time job for you writer if you want to and it also could just be you've been at this practice for five plus years. Lean into the relationship you have with these people and just say, “Hey, this is stressing me out. I've been thinking about this a lot and I wanted to know how you guys feel about it and help them figure it out.” Because maybe it's just that they need a push. Maybe they need to just hear. I can't tell you how many times in my career as a manager, I had a team member who I had a relationship with who I valued their opinion, and I respected them, asked me a question that turned on the light bulb or was eye opening of like I knew that it was bothering me, but I didn't realize it was bothering everybody else.
Stephaine Goss:
And that was all of the motivation I needed as the leader to jump into the deep end and say, “I'm going to work on this, I'm going to tackle it. I'm going to fix it.” And so it doesn't have to be you learning the skills to do all of the things that you just talked about, Andy because I think that could be really daunting too, right? Like if you don't have any of that experience, how could I learn about priorities setting? How could I learn about how to talk about vision and mission and core values with people? That can be really intimidating. It could be as simple as giving somebody the push to figure that out on their own. If you are the writer and you're like, that this is something I'd be interested in learning more about, there's also nothing wrong with educating yourself.
Stephaine Goss:
And this is the last piece of advice I was going to say or suggestion would be this sounds like great potential where if you are a floor leader or you are a middle level leader in your practice and you have an interest in continuing your own development, this is a great time to find a mentor. Find somebody who is an experienced practice manager or a hospital administrator who has a different job than your practices, office manager, or homegrown manager who doesn't have any training and learn about their experience, learn about their skill sets and figure out how to bridge that gap and that education and that learning process is not a quick one. So it's not the first place where I would start, but it certainly would be an opportunity for you to learn more and connect with your peers and just soak it all up and because you can learn so much, and really quickly I think.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I completely agree. All right, I think there's been a wildly big beastly question to get our arms around, but we did it and so yep. So there we go. Guys, that's what I got for you. I think that's sort of where I am. I hope that we gave people good things to think about and didn't muddy the waters too much as this was a big unwieldy, tentacle beast that's in between us and our North star. How hard is that to follow?
Stephaine Goss:
I think it comes back to it takes a little bit of positivity. Just to start with some good thoughts and say, “I don't like this. This feels negative and feels not good to me and this is how I can be more positive about it.” And if that's you dealing with it, if it's that asking somebody else to deal with it, but figuring out what exactly is really bothering you and what feels the most important because you're not wrong, Andy. It is beastly and there's multiple things happening, and so I think figuring out where do you start is the heart of it. So this was fun.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Awesome. Cool. Thanks guys, everybody take care of yourselves.
Stephaine Goss:
Have a great week everybody.
Stephaine Goss:
Hey friends, have you been over to the website lately to check out all the fun and exciting things that are coming from the Uncharted Veterinary team? If not, you should stop right now and head over there because we have got some awesome stuff coming late summer and into the fall and winter and I want you to be there with us. We have our Get Shit Done Conference coming in the fall that is happening in October before that, we've got a workshop coming in September from my dear friend, Dr. Phil Richmond. He's going to be talking about avoiding toxic teams, how to create psychological safety in our practices. We've got the amazing and wonderful technician, Melissa Entrekin, who is leading a workshop in October about leveraging technicians, making practice less stressful for you, them, and your patients, and all kinds of other fantastic things you are not going to them to miss out on.
Stephaine Goss:
So if you haven't been over there lately, head on over to unchartedvet.com. You can hit forward slash events if you want to go straight to the events page, but that will show you everything that is coming and remember, if you are an Uncharted member, your membership gets you access to all of these workshops that we do on a regular basis for free, and if you are not currently a member, you can check out the membership information because it will save you big bucks throughout the year on accessing all of the workshops, and it scores you access to the conferences when we have them, like Get Shit Done for less money. That's right, get a discount and who doesn't love a good discount.
Stephanie Goss:
Thanks so much for listening guys, we'll see you soon.
