This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…
This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss dive into the mail bag and come out with a wonderful question from a lead LVT who is struggling with a new hire that they are hearing some not so nice things about through the local vetmed grapevine. The world of veterinary medicine is a very small one – does that mean it is unfair to judge someone before you even get to work with them? Let's get into this.
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Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, we have another great e-mail through the mail back from a technician at a small GP who has a new hire coming on that they feel like might have a bit of a bad reputation. Andy and I get into talking about the fact that vet med is a very small world, and answer some of the questions that this tech asked about. Are they catastrophizing? And if they are, how do they actually deal with this? This one is so fun and I'm super excited to share it with you all, so let's get into it, shall we? Oh, and real quick, if you're listening to this episode and you have kids around, there is some language in this one. Andy and I try, but we don't always succeed at censoring ourselves here. So, you might want to hit pause if the kids are in the car with you and now let's get into this.
Speaker 2:
And now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only, Stephanie “I'm the bad guy” Goss. Oh, not my best.
Stephanie Goss:
That's okay. I don't mind being the bad guy once in a while. How good is Andy Roark?
Andy Roark:
It could be worse. That's where I am. It could be worse. I feel like there's a lot of people who are struggling with things these days and I've had some of my close friends reach out really recently and say things like, “Boy, I worked so hard on the culture of my practice and now, everyone has quit. No money.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And I've had other people who'd say, “I'm going through a really hard time and I've had a lot of pets that I care deeply about passing away and I'm not strong enough to not let that affect me. And so, if I act different when we're together, I just want you to kind of know that's going on.” And I think about those things a lot. I hear advice to other people say…. So for example, with the turnover thing, when I say, “I have a friend who's struggling and he's had a huge staff turnover.” I know there's people out there who say, “Well, maybe he's not setting the culture the right way,” or “Maybe he's not leading the right way,” or “Maybe he's not hiring the right people.”
Andy Roark:
And I hear those things, but I've been really thinking a lot about this, Stephanie. I just kind of want to put it here at the beginning because it's something I'm really rolling around with. I've got this idea that there are sages, and hustlers, and backpackers.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy Roark:
Okay. So, sages, and hustlers, and backpackers. And the sages are the people who try to convince you that if you are smart enough, you will get this right.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
The key is there's knowledge that you don't have, but if you had the knowledge, if the person told you the right things, then you would be one of the smart people and you would-
Stephanie Goss:
And you could change it.
Andy Roark:
… You could change it. You'd avoid it. You would avoid the pain because you are smart and you know the thing. And the hustlers are the people who are on Facebook and Instagram talking about how they're grinding, and they're working hard, and they're up early and they're seizing the day, and they're making it happen because they're working so hard. And I think both of those people are largely full of shit. I'm sorry, I do.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
I think we're all backpackers.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy Roark:
And what I mean is, we are all out there just walking in the woods, and we're making our way. And some of us are carrying heavy packs and some of us are carrying light packs and generally, we have cycles, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
That's just backpacking, as we have a full pack and you go in the woods, it's real heavy, and at the end of the trip it didn't weigh as much because you've gotten a lot off your back and you've eaten a lot of food and stuff. And so, some of us have heavy packs, and some of us have light packs, and sometimes your pack is heavy, and sometimes it's light, and sometimes you're getting eaten by mosquitoes.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Sometimes you're not, and sometimes there's beautiful views, and sometimes there not. And sometimes, it just rolls up and it rains on you for days and days, and you just walk in the rain, and you didn't do anything wrong and you're not failing, you're just walking in the rain, and I think that that's really important. And yeah, if you're smart, you can do better packing job and you can pick a better trail sometimes. And there are some people who just hike in circles and they come back to the same roadblocks, the same landmarks, and they don't realize that they're going at circles. They're like, “There's that same pain in my butt again.” [inaudible 00:04:38]-
Stephanie Goss:
Guess I'll keep going.
Andy Roark:
… right around and they just do it again. If you're seeing the same landmark, you should change what you're doing. And we all need to rest on our backpacking trip, everybody needs to rest. If your ideas, I'm going to walk, and walk, and walk, and never rest, never take care of myself, you're in trouble. At the same time, there's a lot of people who take a lot of rests and they don't get very far. And so anyway, that's where my head is these days and I hope that that's helpful for other people because it's been really helpful to me recently. I'm like, “You know what? We're all just backpacking. And sometimes, you backpack in the rain and there's nothing you can do about it other than, except that it's just going to rain and you're going to walk in the rain for a while and you didn't do anything wrong. You don't outsmart the rain, you don't outhustle the rain, sometimes you walk in the rain.”
Stephanie Goss:
Glad that you talked about this and I think the metaphors is very appropriate, and it's one of the things that makes me love what we do here on the podcast and what we do in the Uncharted community because I think it's so true. And I think even the most experienced backpackers get hit with rain. And the only way to get through it is you just keep picking your foot up and put one foot in front of the other. And it's one of the things that I love here because this is kind of a safe little space because the reality is like you can be really good at your job and you can have done it forever and you're still going to get hit with rain once in a while. And so, I think about our friend too and it's like, you can do all the right things, you can have all the right systems, and protocols, and processes, and it still falls apart.
Andy Roark:
Sure.
Stephanie Goss:
And that's one of the things that I love about our community, is the willingness to recognize that. ‘Cause I think, especially on social media, there's this pressure to feel like you have to make it look like everything is perfect. And we get caught up in like, “Oh my God, their clinic has it all together.” Nobody's clinic has it all together all the time. It's just total BS, you guys.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. Honestly, that's what I love the most. That's what I probably would've loved the most about Uncharted is, one of our core values is vulnerability. And so, there's nothing that makes you feel better when you're walking in the rain, and you've had this problem, and you've gone through this thing. And then, someone that you respect, someone who you knew is just objectively successful, comes up and says, “Oh, man. I did that. I remember walking through that. God it sucks.” And you go, “Oh, you've been here? You've got something like this?” And they're like, “Oh, yeah buddy.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
And when you go, one, it's someone showing you that you're going to come out the other side, which is valuable. And another thing is it convinces you that it's not a foolish mistake, it's just sometimes, you get rained on, and everybody gets rained on. So anyway, I've been thinking a lot about that recently. But if you're out there and you're struggling and you're feeling like, “Man, things are not going well. This must mean that I'm failing, or I'm not strong enough, or I'm not smart enough.” I don't think that that's true. I think we're all making our way. And hey, if you want to walk with some people, come and join Uncharted, and we walk together, that's what we do. But we're all still walking, and you still got to carry your own back, and you're still going to get rained on, but at least you won't be alone. And other people can tell you what they've seen on their journey as well.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
So anyway, that's that. Anyway, I don't know who needs to hear that, but I suspect someone does.
Stephanie Goss:
I think there's more people that probably need to hear it than don't, because it's hard right now. And honestly, I'm stoked about, we've got GSDA Conference coming up in a few short weeks. I can't believe it's already September. The clock is just moving on by.
Andy Roark:
[Inaudible 00:08:28].
Stephanie Goss:
And I think that's where a lot of us are at. Life is crazy. Everybody's shorthanded. Everything is nuts for everybody. And so. I'm really excited about spending that time in that space together as a group to just say, “Look, sometimes it's great, and let's lean into the positivity because when it sucks, it's really hard to find that positive motivation.” And there's nothing better than being on that trail and having another group of backpackers to just sit and wait out the rain with.
Andy Roark:
Yeah,
Stephanie Goss:
It feels good.
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
But we have a great mail bag question for this week. Speaking of waiting out the rain, we got a question from a technician in practice who is a leader and they're asking for some friends or some advice for waiting out the rain. So, they are the lead in RVT in their practice or lead tech, and they have someone who's been hired, they have a practice manager. And so, the practice manager has hired somebody, and they said the vet world's very small in our area. And fun fact, the vet world in general, is very small. Doesn't matter where you live, you can live in New York City or you can live in the middle of nowhere Kansas, it is small no matter where you live. And so this tech is like, “Look, I'm hearing some pretty negative things from mutual acquaintances in our area about this new hire. They have super [inaudible 00:09:57] words, like they have super strong or super dominant personality. And one person said, ‘Look, this person is a straight up, capital B word.'”
Stephanie Goss:
And so, their practice managers was like, “Look, we're shorthanded. I think that we need someone, particularly someone who has a level of experience as this hire, badly enough to give them the benefit of the doubt and just see what happens.” And so, this technician is torn because they're like, “Look, I get it. We do need help. And we've worked really, really hard to get to a place as a team where we have, a great team, not toxic, works together, and they're afraid. They don't want that to change.” And so, they were asking, “Hey, how do you approach onboarding someone where you might know some things about their history? Do you view it differently than you would a new hire that nothing about?” They were asking themselves, “Am I being unfair to judge before this person even starts? And they're just worried about, “Am I catastrophizing this or is there actually potential that this could be a train wreck?”
Andy Roark:
Yeah. Both. Guess, it's both.
Stephanie Goss:
Right?
Andy Roark:
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Wait. Here we go. We actually get a fair number of questions like this about like, “Someone new is joining and this is what I've heard. What can I do?”
Stephanie Goss:
This is 100% going to be another one of those episodes where people are like, “Are they talking about my practice?”
Andy Roark:
Yeah. I'll tell you the other part of this, this is not the question that we got, but this is a version of this question that I've gotten before, it's the owner or the medical director writes to us and they're like, “I just hired this person and now the team has come to me to tell me they have a horrible reputation. This is information I would've liked to have had yesterday.”
Stephanie Goss:
Again, true story.
Andy Roark:
We've gotten those gotten letters too.
Stephanie Goss:
True story.
Andy Roark:
All right. Well, let's already unpack this. So, let's start with headspace as we do.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy Roark:
Do you want to start with sunny headspace or not sunny headspace? What do you like to start with?
Stephanie Goss:
Let's start with the sunshine.
Andy Roark:
Great. Let's start with the sunshine. How about the golden rule? Like, Okay, if I was going into a new job and someone there had heard that I was a jerk, I would want the people who didn't know me to at least give me a chance.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
I would want that.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
I'll tell you a story. I don't think I've ever told this story before, but I'll tell you a story. I remember at a Facebook group, it's been years ago, and it was a group and there was a bunch of technicians in this group, and I had posted something that had been shared from the Doctor Anywhere page into this group, something like that. And I was looking around, as you do when you see something show up in a group, you're like, share that and wander. And people were like, “Oh, this is really good, and blah, blah, blah.” And then, there was this one person who said, “If you want to know what it's really like to work with him, let me know. I have the dirt,” in the comments.
Stephanie Goss:
Seriously?
Andy Roark:
And I look at this person. I never met this person in my life. I'm like, “I have no idea who you're.” But I was bothered.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
It was very conspiratorial. And so, I commented back to this person and I said, “What's the dirt? I would really like to know.” And I thought that they would kind of back down or maybe delete their comment. But no, they wrote, they grabbed their flaming, raging sword of justice and said, “Ah. The fact that you would comment shows how defensive you are and then you clearly have-“
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, gosh.
Andy Roark:
At that point, I was done.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
But they went on the attack that I had said, “What is the dirt? Because I've never met you and I'm curious as to what you think you know,” and it just escalated. And I thought about that and it really bothered me because I was like, “I don't know who this person is and they're telling other people they have the dirt on working with me.” And so, I went back to my text and I was like, “Hey, what's the dirt on working with me? What could possibly be there?” And they looked and they were like, “Oh, this person works with someone who left our clinic a while back.” And so yeah, there's probably some gossipy stuff going on over there.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
I wouldn't worry about it. And I ultimately said, “Dude, what else are you going to do?” So, you let it go.
Stephanie Goss:
Let it go.
Andy Roark:
But man, it always bothered me because I really bend over backwards to be good to work with. And if I'm not good to work with, I want you to tell me I'm not good to work with. Because I, honest to God, take the feedback and change or at least change what I can do, because it's real important to me that the support staff and the other doctors enjoy being around me, and that I treat people well. And so, to see that or have that reputation put out, man, that hurt me and that bothered me, enough that the fact that I still remember the interaction today. And so, I can empathize with the person coming in and being like, sometimes, people say stuff or put stuff out that hopefully, is not remotely true, but man I would hate to have people judging me and making decisions about how they're going to treat me based on some rumor about how I'm supposed to act.
Stephanie Goss:
And the other piece of this that I will say that has been one of the most powerful lessons that I have learned as a manager but also as a human being is, sometimes, things are a result of environment. And so, I have worked with technicians, and support staff, and doctors in my career where I have worked with them in one environment, and it was an awful experience, and then, they go on to a completely different clinical environment and it's like night and day. And so, I think for me, give people a chance is really important. And I think, again, I'm looking for repeated instances of problems but you got to give somebody a chance. And so, I think that's how I try and approach people when I do reference checks or background checks as a manager and I'm talking to people who have worked with somebody before and I'm asking them questions, one of the things that I'm trying to figure out is situational.
Stephanie Goss:
What is their environment? Yes, I want to hear the information that they're sharing, and if someone shares something to me, that's deal breakers, obviously, that's important. But if somebody's like, “Well there was some drama, there was problems with gossiping or whatever.” I'm going to ask more questions because I want to know what were the circumstances? There's a million different reasons but I want to know and because what I'm trying to figure out is, is there a higher potential for this to be replicated in my practice environment? Because we all have different teams, we all have different makeups within our practice. And so, I agree with you, I think everybody deserves a chance. And also, I want to know what is potentially different about my circumstance and situation then than theirs.
Andy Roark:
Well, totally. I have a good friend and her mother passed away, and man, she was a different person for six months.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
No shade. But boy, it was a hard time, and I'm confident she's not alone and having an experience like that-
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, yeah.
Andy Roark:
… that really rocked her to the court. And it wasn't like, “Oh, she's having a bad week.” It was like, no, it was six months. Again, I know this person as a friend. Was it depression? I don't know. But they definitely changed, their behavior changed for an extended amount of a period of time, and then, ultimately it changed back. But all that to say, sometimes, we meet people at a hard time, and it's something they're going through. I really like your point about environment matters. I remember friends growing up that they were together, and boy, they were both kind of mean. And then, their friendship broke up, and suddenly, one of them was the coolest, nicest person I ever met.
Andy Roark:
I'm like, “How are you cool?” And they were like, “I didn't realize being around this other person was really affecting me in a negative way.” It was incredible to see this turnaround in this individual. So, I think you're really right in that. There's a lot of things like that. They change over time. I don't know. I think giving people a benefit of the doubt sometimes, it makes a lot of sense. And we all kind of cycle through things now. That's the sunny side. Now, there's not sunny side as well. There's a difference in behaviors and patterns-
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
… and I put a lot of weight on this.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
I hear people misspeak all the time, or say something that's hurtful, or snap at other people, and that's a thing that happens to the best of us. We all get angry. We all have hard days. We're all carrying heavy backpacks.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And just we wake up and we don't have enough spoons to get through the day. If you know spoon theory, it happens to all of us, and we act out. And that's not a pattern, that's an action. There are other things that are patterns.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Where this person snaps a lot and this person routinely gets frustrated and raises their voice as opposed to the person who has raised their voice literally one time in 10 years.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
We've all seen practice owners at the end of their rope raised their voice, and it was like, “Boy, was that wildly out of character for her,” or “Boy, that's just another Tuesday for her.” But that pattern matters. It matters.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And so, the only reason I bring that up, is if you have multiple people come to you, pointing out a type of behavior that they have experienced, or seeing, or heard about in different times and places, then I start to say, “Maybe this person didn't have a bad day. Maybe there's a pattern of behavior here.” And I definitely would be foolish to not, at least file that away. I don't want to judge that person, but I would also be foolish to dismiss that out of hand and not consider the possibility that there is truth to what is being put forward.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And I think that's truly true. And when I thought about this, I thought about this letter and thought about what they were saying. To me, things like strong or dominant personality, or acting like a straight up B, my question is, what does that actually mean? Is it behaviors that they're seeing? What do those behaviors look like? Is it things like tone of voice? Is it the way that they talk? What does that actually mean? Because that could mean a million different things, and that could be something that is in my control to influence or affect change, or it could be completely out of my control if it's truly personality. And those are two very, very different things for me. And so, I agree with you. I think it's worth looking at, “Is this something I can impact or influence or is it not?”
Andy Roark:
Yeah. Well, one last example I want to give, because you were there, you were with me when I was talking to Ron Souza, our executive director for Uncharted. And he talked about when he lived in New York City and became a New Yorker, and he left New York, and he had to change the way he communicates because the way that he would be like, “No. Do this, I need this, get this.” And apparently it was culturally acceptable in New York City and that's how people communicated very directly. That's not how they communicate during in other parts of the country. And I realized that I was like, I would tell people it's to do things and they would cry and I was like, “Oh my God.” And it's like we all have these different ways and styles where we behave in one way and it changes later on anyway. Yeah, I guess just my point is we all have behaviors. We are all making our way. Pay attention to behaviors and patterns especially, but again, everybody should get a chance. I think that that's my thought on giving people a chance
Stephanie Goss:
And I really believe strongly in that. Because on the flip side of that question, I know you were going to turn us to a little bit of the reign, but I would also say from a sunny side perspective, what if it's great? And I say that from my own personal experience. When I was a manager and I left my first clinic and I went to work as a practice manager for the first time and I went to work in a practice, and it was very appropriate here. I had heard some things about the practice but I was like, I have evaluated things for myself and I feel like there's potential here and I am excited about having a chance. And so, I was like, “I'm going to set those things aside and I'm going to think about it. What if it could be great? What if those things aren't the experience that I have? If I say no just because of someone else's experience, am I going to be passing up on an awesome opportunity for myself?”
Stephanie Goss:
And so I was trying to go into it with a great head space and a dear friend of mine who I've known since I started in the industry and they're in industry, she's a works for one of the manufacturers, came by and I was so excited and I was just like, “Hey, guess what? Guess where I'm going to work?” And I told her I got a job as practice manager and I'm super, super excited, she literally burst into tears.
Andy Roark:
Oh no.
Stephanie Goss:
And she was just like, “Please, tell me that you're kidding.” She's like, “Take it back. Don't go there.” She's like, “Please don't go there.” And I was so taken aback and I was just like, “Oh, no. Okay, this is not a good sign.” But I was just like, “I'm going to be cut.” This is me sunny, hopefully optimistic. And I was just like, “But I'm really excited about the opportunity and so I'm still trying to frame it in a good way.” And for me, it was interesting because ultimately I learned so much in that practice, and there was a lot of negative, and a lot of bad. And looking back with hindsight, as only you can with hindsight, it's like high school, would I choose to repeat that? Not a chance in hell. But I learned so many lessons that I would not have learned, I don't think if I hadn't taken that route.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, for me, part of it is, from a head space perspective, is when you choose to give people the benefit of the doubt, sometimes for yourself. And sometimes, the question that I ask myself is, “What if it's great?” And I think that there can be a lot of good in that, not in a toxic positive kind of way, but I do think it's worth the mental exercise to ask yourself, “What if your team needs a strong personality? What if your team needs somebody who's a straightforward, shoot from the hip kind of communicator? What could be great if someone like that came into your team? Maybe there's possibility there.
Andy Roark:
Oh yeah. I'll tell you, I definitely have some good friends who rubbed other people the wrong way.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
I have some prickly friends. But as I say that, I have some prickly friends who are, you don't want to cuddle them and they don't want to be cuddled. They're like the cat. If you hug them, they're just going to freak out. It's not going to go well. But they're still a good companion to have around. And so, the fact that someone doesn't get along with other people, you could only put so much talk in that you have to go and make that decision for yourself. The other thing that I've really been focusing on a lot recently, which has worked really well for me, I am very much about protecting my peace these days, as the world is tumultuous and there's plenty of things to get upset about. Very few of more things that I can actually control.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
I've really settled in a lot into, I'm going to protect my peace and focus on the things that I can control. And part of protecting my peace is, for me, is trying not to fix problems that don't exist. That seems like a no brainer, but a lot of us spend a lot of time trying to fix problems that do not actually exist yet. We're like, “But it's going to exist but it doesn't exist yet.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
And so, don't spend too much time on it. I think it's a mental game we play. We're like, “Well, I'm going to go ahead and think about what would happen because I'm prepared.” And what I would say is you are fighting over a problem that has yet to occur.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
And I have found that that's generally a waste of my time and a limited emotional energy. And so, in this case, that's exactly what I would say to this person too, it's give grace, golden rule, recognize patterns and go ahead and think about what that means, and don't expose yourself foolishly if you have reason to be cautious. Other than that-
Stephanie Goss:
You'll reach when you get to it.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, exactly right. Well, especially since you are not the one who decides whether or not this person gets hired.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
They're hired, they're coming. As of now, they have created exactly zero problems for you. They have done zero things that are worthy of concern or response. And so, protecting your piece to some degree is the ability to put this down and say, “Well, we'll see what happens, and when it happens we'll deal with it at one way or another.” And so I know that that seems simple, but I got to tell you, a lot of people really miss that trick of like, “Oh, you are fixing a problem that does not actually exist. You think it's going to exist but you have no idea if it actually will.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
The other part is say, fix problems that are in your control. And so you say, “You didn't get to choose whether or not this person was hired.” That was not your decision and this out of your control. They are coming and you can't control that either. And so, in this space, I would say, put your feet up in a lot of ways you should. The best advice from a headspace standpoint is I don't know what any of this is going to be. I'm going to wait and see and then I'm going to react to it based on what actually happens. Not just what I'm worried is going to happen.
Stephanie Goss:
Any other headspace thoughts?
Andy Roark:
Yeah. That's the big one. I guess the last thing I would say in headspace is, you got to have faith in the culture to some degree. Cultures are not made of glass. Now, they can be broken, they can be toxified, sure. But a good culture is not fragile. And honestly, high performing teams tend to self-regulate.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
It's a piece of advice that one of my mentors gave me is if you have people who get along and they work well together and they get things done, toxic people who come in, they often just get excluded or pushed back out. They generally, they have a bad time in a team that works well together and stays positive. And that's not always the case, but a lot of times it is.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think that that's super true as a leader in the practice, when you have a good culture and this person was like, “We've worked so hard to get here.” When you have that culture, you'll know. And I will tell you, having been in a place that had not so great culture and growing to a place that had great culture, when I read this letter I was like, “Oh, this could have been me writing this letter at one point in my career.” And I'll tell you, that person came into our practice and when things started, I was the first one to know. The rest of the team was like, “Look, we already tried talking to this person and this is what happened. We need your help.” And you'll know. And it won't be a long process if you do have a good culture, to your point, the team will self-regulate either, they'll stand up and take care of it themselves because you've taught them really well, and they are going to protect and communicate well as a team, or they will try their best and then they will let the practice leadership know.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, that's exactly my point too, is a lot of times, these people will come in and they won't make it through the first time. If they're really a problem, they're not going to make it the first 90 days or into the first 90 days. If you're a leadership team is honest and committed to having a good culture, they'll catch this.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Andy Roark:
And again, I think sometimes, here's the thing, I think a lot of times we think in very absolute terms where the practice owner is like, “Hey, we need some help. We need some help, we need some skilled labor, we really need it. And so, I'm going to hire this person and give them a chance.” And it's easy to say, the only options were don't hire this person or hire this person and commit-
Stephanie Goss:
And everything's-
Andy Roark:
… having them forever.
Stephanie Goss:
Yup.
Andy Roark:
It's like, “Nope.” The owner said, “We're going to try this out.” And he brought this person in and I will tell you that's the position that I take a lot of time to say we really need someone and I feel good enough to give this a try, but also I'm going to cut mate, if this doesn't work, we're going to pilot and try it out.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And this sort of goes back to the stages that I was talking about at the very beginning. I think a lot of times people are like, “Oh if you hire the right person there will be no question and the person will appear.”
Stephanie Goss:
And everything will be magic.
Andy Roark:
And they will match your core values and achieve immediate spiritual alignment with the rest of the staff. And you all go in harmony and never would there be a way of a wave of discord. That's not-
Stephanie Goss:
Total bullshit.
Andy Roark:
… a lot… Exactly. It's total BS. If you find a perfect person, hire them. I am a huge believer in hire talent when you find it, make it work. Get them on, and if they're great, get them on and figure out how to make it work. And that has always worked out for me. I am also a realist who says sometimes you need help and the help that is available is not the help about which legends are written, the help that's there, and you say, “I am going to try to make this work and if it doesn't work then we're going to cease and desist.” And that's okay too. That's a very likely and possible in survival law.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. And ultimately, and seriously the last thing now, this is really the last thing, but I see people wrestle with all the time, and it came into my mind too, is we don't change. People don't like change. How many times have we had a friend group… You have a friend group and you're like, “This is my group of friends.” And then somebody, what a jerk, brings a new friend into the friend group, and you're like, “Oh, the dynamic changes, we're doing different things, we're talking about different things.” At first, that's weird. And a lot of people like myself, I'm like, “I don't like this friend group anymore.” And-
Stephanie Goss:
And it's painful, sometimes.
Andy Roark:
… It is painful. And then, the friend group adjusts and it's a different experience hanging out with the friend group. That is life.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Your team is going to change.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
There will be people who will come in and there'll be people who will leave, and it will never end. There's the old Buddhist saying that you can never step into the same stream twice. That's true. You put your foot down, you pick it up, the water moves on and you put it down again and everything is different. The molecules are different, the part of the stream is moved on it. It's the same thing with teams is, there is no permanence, there is no stasis. And it's always scary to add new people or shake things up. Not shaking things up is impossible. The Buddhist definition of pain is trying to hold on to time and keep it where it is and that's yeah, that's fine.
Stephanie Goss:
And again, on the flip side of that, what if it's great, things are great now, but what about if you add somebody and it could be even more great. Just because things are good doesn't mean that you should stop moving forward. And for better or for worse, it could go not so great, but what if it gets even better?
Andy Roark:
Absolutely. So anyway, that's the head space. Okay. I think should probably just sort of leave it there. I think we've sufficiently muddied the waters to say a lot of things are out of your control. Don't try to fix problems that don't actually exist,
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… yet. And then, do unto others while still being smart.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
They pay attention to reputations and at the same time give people a chance. I messed up. I'm going to figure how to make this head space thing into an action, Steph, and then we'll do the next section.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy Roark:
Let's take a break. And after that, I'll figure out how to put in the action step to make it sound good.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. Sounds good.
Andy Roark:
Hey Stephanie Goss, you got a second and talk about GuardianVets.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. What do you want to talk about?
Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed because the phone never stopped ringing.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And I'm sure you hear from these people as well. Our caseload is blowing up, and the doctors are busy, and the phones just don't stop.
Stephanie Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.
Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip the switch and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk and they can handle your clients and get them book for your appointments and give them support, and it really is a godsend.
Stephanie Goss:
Pre pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after hours call help. But at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that they are offering help during the daytime as well, which I would think right now, is a huge benefit to practices because everybody is shorthanded. Everybody is drowning in phone calls. And so, we talk about it, we've talked about GuardianVets a lot on the podcast, and every time we do, we always get somebody who says, What is “that?”
Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use some help on the phones or up the front desk, check them out, it's guardianvets.com. And if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So, check it out guardianvets.com. All right. You want to get some action steps?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, let's do it.
Andy Roark:
All right. So, you are the writer here. This person is coming in, this person does not have a good reputation. Among people that you trust and you are worried about the culture and the impact this person's going to have. Well, let's make some action steps. What are you doing here?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Okay. So for me, the first thing that I have to do is answer one of the questions that was asked, which is, how do you approach onboarding with someone that you've heard things about differently than any other hire? And my answer to that is, “No.” You treat them in the exact same. And so, for me it's a head space thing, but it's also an actionable thing. I just pretend when I'm interacting with that person, I don't know any of the things because you got to give everybody a chance. And the only way you can do that is if you try and forget. Now, we all know that that's easier said than done and that we're going to have bias and judgment. So, actionably, it's about two twofold. One is a little bit of pretend, a little bit of fake it till you make it. And the other is what we talked about in headspace, which is being aware.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, if things do happen, make note of them, but don't treat them any differently. Don't approach it any differently. In fact, I think you actually have to work harder at onboarding a person that you might know some things like this about, because I want to try. I don't want it to be at the end of the day, the worst thing for me would be to feel like I was in control of this piece of the experience and I screwed this up. At the end of the day, as a leader, I wouldn't want to look backwards and say, “Oh, I could have done better.” Maybe that's the overachiever in me, but I'm going to probably work harder to get to know them, to try and set a good stage. So I wouldn't approach it differently in a negative perspective, but I might approach it a little bit differently from a positive perspective, if that makes any sense.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, yeah. No, I agree with that. I would tie on to that and say, assuming good intent. Again, we talk about this. Every week, is just, “Hey, I'm going to assume that this person is trying hard and I want to be a good person.” And then again, that's just me getting into a good head space where I can work with them and feel good. So, I would say assume good intent. The next part of this, which may or may not have been the part I won't really want to talk about in the last [inaudible 00:39:38]. The next part of this is, be kind first. Okay? So, be kind first. Now, there's this book called Give and Take by the psychologist Adam Grant.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy Roark:
And you can read the book if you want. You don't have to. I'm gonna tell you the whole book right here. This is the whole takeaway. In this book, Adam Grant says, “There's three kinds of peoples. There's givers, there's takers, and there's matchers.”
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy Roark:
And givers are people who give off themselves. They give their time and energy and to other people. And there's takers, who are people who do not give. They only take from other people. And there's matchers, who are people who basically keep score. If you give to me, then I will give back to you. And if you take from me, then I will take from you. And I did something for you, now I expect you to do something for me. And those are the three types. Now he looks at givers, takers, and matchers, and says, “When you look at success, however he defined it, where do these people fall out? Who is at the top of the success ladder and who's at the bottom? And what he found was it's givers, at both the top and the bottom. They're very bimodal.
Andy Roark:
And the difference between them is that givers who never stop giving, they get parasitized, they get taken advantage of, and held down, and they end up unhappy.
Stephanie Goss:
At the bottom.
Andy Roark:
… and at the bottom. And other people have just taken their credit for them, taken their heart and soul. But givers at the top, also give. The difference is the givers at the top start by giving. They are the first ones that jump in and help to give their time and their energy. But then after they jump in and give, then they switch to a matching strategy, which means I'm going to give first.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
And if you jump in and give as well, and we have a mutually beneficial giving relationship to each other, I'm going to keep giving. But if I jump in and give and give, I suspect that you're a taker and you are not giving back.
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Then I'm going to switch to a matching strategy and be like, “Well, I'm not giving you anymore.” And if you change strategy and decide to be a giver, then I'll jump back in, I'll switch back to being a giver. And that sounds really simplistic and it probably is, but gosh, how powerful that is. And I really believe that there's a lot of truth in that is you should be a giver. We should all be a giver. But also, we should be realistic about the truth of the world and say, “I'm going to give first without expecting compensation. I'm not matching, I'm giving, but I am also going to pay attention and I'm not going to get taken advantage of and held down and things like that. I would say the same thing with this person as they're coming in, I'm going to be kind to this person.
Andy Roark:
Yup.
Stephanie Goss:
I'm going to put myself out there and try to support them and try to make their onboarding easy. And if they jump in, and they're appreciative, and they accept this help and show that they want to be here, I'm going to keep supporting them. And if I jump in and try to help them and they blow me off or act like I'm inconvenience them or things like that, then I'm not going to be there to support them. I'm going to step back away and I will support as needed as desired, but I'm not going to throw myself into this in a way that's going to allow me to get taken advantage of.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think that this person who wrote to us has the unique opportunity to set the tone for the rest of the team-
Andy Roark:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
… because the reality is it's small world. And if you're hearing things, some other members of your team might be hearing things too. And so, you have the opportunity to set the tone and be the leader here. And on the flip side, you have an opportunity because you were there first. You are a senior member of the team, and I would hallucinate that your practice owner and your practice manager trusts you. And so, as an owner, as a manager, if my lead tech came to me, if there was challenges and told me what those challenges were, because we have built the trust bank, which you talk about a lot, I'm going to look at that and say, “Your word is not the be all, end all, but I'm going to have a whole lot of faith in what you're sharing with me and your perspective.” And so, you are going to have the ability to influence on that end as well.
Stephanie Goss:
And so this person was like, I don't have a lot of decision-making power. The practice owner was like, “I think we're going to do this.” And they've already hired the person. And so, it feels crappy to feel like you don't get to make that decision. And at the same time, that does not mean that your hands are tied. And so I think from an action perspective, I think you're so spot on, Andy, about let's be kind here. And you have the potential to set the tone for the rest of the team, and you're going to assume good intent, you're going to give this person a good opportunity and a good chance, and you're going to be observant, right?
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And you're going to say, is this a one off? Are these repeated behaviors? And It's hard because it's easy to think, Well, I'm just going to watch them and I'm going to keep score. It's not what you're doing either, right?
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
It's really truly about giving someone a good opportunity but also being open and honest and saying, “Is this working? Is this not?”
Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree with that completely. The other part of that was really dovetails on all of it says, “If you want to be able to influence this new person coming in, then creating a relationship with that person as quickly as possible-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
…. is your best option because you're not going to be their boss.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
We talk a lot about trust and relationships, and that was really important. And so, this person coming in, you giving first, you assuming good intent, you trying to support this person as they come in. They might not be a nice person, but if you have a relationship with them, at least you're going to probably, hopefully, be more comfortable in that. And then, also, you're going to be in a place where you can maybe affect those behaviors, maybe be able to sort peer mentor this person because they are looking to you, or they know you, or they feel like over the first couple of weeks that they were there, they built up some trust, and you might very well be able to help guide this relationship.
Andy Roark:
The worst case is that you try to build that relationship and it just does not work. And we're back to our matching strategy and you say, “Hey, I tried to get in there and tried to build this relationship, and tried to help this person, and give to this person, but it's not working.” At some point you have to say, “I did the thing. I gave it my honest try. I really wanted to make this work, I set myself up there.” And that brings me to the last action step, which is, never forget that you are not trapped. And a lot of times, you don't get to decide what happens in this life, but you always get to decide how you respond to it. And so, if you are losing sleep at night and you're like, “This person is coming, and what if this is terrible? What if it's awful?” Then I would say, this is the best job market in a hundred years. Just pile that away, for what it's worth.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
You've always got options. You're never going to be trapped.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
So anyway, the last thing I would say is,” I'm going to give it my best and maybe it'll be amazing.” And the worst case is it won't be amazing and it will be this person will toxify the place and leadership will not intervene, and I'm going to communicate to them, and they're still not going to intervene. And ultimately, I'm going to decide that this is not how I want to spend my days and I'm going to go somewhere else. And I would say to you, “Is that really the worst scenario that you can imagine? Is that really a horrible, horrible, horrible thing?” Probably not.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And it's hard because in the moment it feels crappy. You think, “Oh, I've worked so hard and we're in this great place, and what if it's all ruined?”
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, I think the thing to remember is, it's not permanent. This person getting hired doesn't have to be permanent. But also, to your point, Andy, like you being where you are, also doesn't have to be permanent. And I think our human nature brains are like, we're going to… Then a writer asked, “Am I catastrophizing and is this going to be a train wreck?” Well yeah, you are catastrophizing.
Andy Roark:
Definitely, catastrophizing. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
It is it going to be a train wreck? Maybe. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's a great thing for you. Maybe it's a great thing for your team. And there have been plenty of times where I've looked back in hindsight and in the moment, and I can tell you I felt that way, really honestly, leaving my last three practices, in the moment, it felt like the end of the world, for differing reasons every time. But it felt like the worst possible thing that could happen, to walk away from that. And yet, I will tell you, that with hindsight in perspective, it was the right thing for so many other reasons.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, I think we tend to feel that, we just see that, feeling trapped, and we get so afraid, and for me, that's where, “Oh, man.” Living in that emotional place and it is not fun. It's not ugly. I mean it is ugly and it feels crappy. And so, I think, just don't forget that, what you said, Andy, is so true, that you can only control how you respond to it. And so, don't feel like you're trapped because you're not. And to your point, it is the best possible job market that it's been in forever.
Andy Roark:
Oh, yeah. Exactly. Right.
Stephanie Goss:
Just [inaudible 00:49:14] that away.
Andy Roark:
And I stand here and say this like, “Oh, and you can do this and give grace and blah, blah, blah.” It's like, “I am a master catastrophizer.” Let me say, “How many times have we talked about me up living in a box next to the river?” For a long time, that was 100% a staple in the podcast.
Stephanie Goss:
Pretty much.
Andy Roark:
That was me talking about how this decision was going to have me living in a box alone.
Stephanie Goss:
Probably the first two years that you and I worked together, that was a regularly occurring conversation. I was talking Andy off the ledge because tomorrow him and his girls were going to be living in a cardboard box in the forest 'cause everything was going to fall apart.
Andy Roark:
Most of the staff meetings were people saying, “You're not going to live in a box, Andy.” I was like, “That's it. That's it. We're all out jobs.” And they're like, “We're not out of jobs.” At the time, everybody was super part-time, they're like, “This is not even our real job, Andy. We're all fine.”
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man. I love it.
Andy Roark:
That's all I got. I hope that's helpful.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
Remember that we're all backpackers. And sometimes, you see big thunder clouds ahead, and sometimes they blow on by, and sometimes you get rained on and you're going to have to walk at the rain a little while, but it's nothing you can't handle. It's really not.
Stephanie Goss:
Super great analogy, I love it. Have a fantastic week everybody.
Andy Roark:
See you guys. Take care.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mail bag. If there is something that you would love to have a stock about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mail bag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
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