I Hate That The Team Bashes Clients

In this episode, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss tackle a mailbag question from a technician struggling with negativity in their clinic, where team members have started complaining about clients after a recent workflow change. The hosts discuss how small behaviors like eye-rolling and client bashing can create a toxic work environment if left unchecked, especially when clients might overhear. They explore the importance of setting personal boundaries, leading by example, and addressing frustrations constructively to maintain a positive workplace culture. Tune in for practical strategies on how to approach tough conversations, support your team, and foster a respectful clinic atmosphere, all while protecting your own peace of mind. Let's get into this episode…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Episode Transcript

Stephanie Goss: Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted podcast. This week on the podcast, we've got a letter in the mailbag from a technician at a practice who is struggling with some of the recent changes that their new practice made because they feel like it's impacting clients.

It's not the way that you think this time, the team is venting and talking negatively about some of the clients that are really struggling with the changes in the new workflow. And this technician is really frustrated with listening to this kind of client bashing. Let's get into this. 

Dr. Andy. Roark: And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only Stephanie Now We Got Bad Blood Goss. We used to have mad love, but baby now we got bad blood.

Stephanie Goss: I think you just made Maria Prita's dreams come true by singing a T Swizzle song on the podcast.

Dr. Andy. Roark: I was at the CrossFit gym and there was a Taylor Swift song on and the coach said, all right guys, we got two options. We can listen to Taylor Swift or, and all the women in the room stopped and looked at him in a way and he was like, or, we could listen to a different Taylor Swift song.

And it was just, I just, I saw it like, they shut that mess down. This was just like yesterday. I was like, oh, we're still in this place where you better tread lightly if you're trying to turn the Taylor Swift off. Anyway.

Stephanie Goss: I love it.

Dr. Andy. Roark: It was pretty intense. How are you doing today?

Stephanie Goss: I am doing okay. It is busy. Things are busy. This episode is coming out where we're in the end of September and schools just started back. Things are crazy busy. I, your kids went back way early this year.

Dr. Andy. Roark: Oh, yeah, we're like in week three. We're already homesick. That's where we are. We're so far into the school year that a kid is missing the back half of the week with covid.

Stephanie Goss: Oh, no.

Dr. Andy. Roark: We are just amped this school year is getting absolutely squished down in another month. We'll have had our first boyfriend and breakup and then it'll be time to graduate. That's how things are going to go. It is absolutely flying by.

Stephanie Goss: It's crazy. I have, I have my first experience. Both the kids are now in high school, which is frightening because I feel like they were both just babies. But speaking of bad blood, we had our first, rough experience of the school year. Besides the fact that on day two, I had to have the conversation with my kid about why are you already missing schoolwork?

Like it's only day two 

Dr. Andy. Roark: Day two. 

Stephanie Goss: what's happening here?

Dr. Andy. Roark: Like, look, I don't want to freak you out, but so far this is not going well.

Stephanie Goss: But, but we've hit, we've hit that stage where my youngest he is his father in miniature, except for he's my kid when it comes to school because he is really, really smart.

And he is lazy AF. He knows, he knows exactly how much effort he has to put in to score the lowest A possible. And that is the, that is all the effort he puts in. And he's so he's, he skipped he skipped two grades already because he's. He's just, he's that kid. So he's a couple of years younger than the rest of his class.

And we've hit that stage where his friends who the age difference hasn't mattered until now are really in the throes of being teenagers. They're 15 now and he's, you know, he's 13. And so 

Dr. Andy. Roark: That's a big difference, right? 

Stephanie Goss: it is, especially in

Dr. Andy. Roark: and a 13 year old that's a big difference. Like the difference in a nine year old and a six year old is not, it's not as big as

Stephanie Goss: Yes. Yep. And so we're feeling that age difference really for the first time.

And so there was some drama earlier this week because the boys were teasing him and they were just being. teenage boys. And I tried to rationalize that with him. But of course, in the moment he's feeling all the bad blood and it's emotion. And he's like, F these guys, they're such jerks.

You know, I'm just like, listen, you're giving them exactly what they want, which is to get a rise out of you. And you've just, it's the territory that comes along with being the youngest kid. And I remember that being, cause I was almost three years younger than the kids in my class,

Dr. Andy. Roark: That's why we pick on you at Uncharted, because you're the youngest employee.

Stephanie Goss: I know, I know.

Dr. Andy. Roark: And so we all just

Stephanie Goss: It's not, that's the funny part. That's what I, that's what I love about Uncharted is that I'm one of the oldest and it's one of the first places in my entire life where I've been the oldest kid in the class.

Dr. Andy. Roark: Just buckle up, Goss. It's all going to be good from here. So get ready for the good times to roll because it ain't going back.

Stephanie Goss: How’s things in the household besides the COVID?

Dr. Andy. Roark: besides the COVID, it's fine, it's good. You know what's funny I just want to, speak for a second on the teenage boy thing is like I think back about my life and when I was 15 16 years old I I remember that and the place that I have come to realize is I think a lot about interpersonal relationships that I had at that time in my life and They weren't always great And there were kids I did not get along with who hurt my feelings, and there were kids that I probably hurt their feelings.

And I think about some of the ways that I talk to people or treated people, and it's not my proudest moment looking back, and so I've really thought deeply about it and kinda say, you know, what does this make me as a person, as I look back and say, whoa, there's a lot of, I wasn't the nicest kid to other kids, and there were kids who weren't nice to me, and I was probably just passing it on down the line. I was wildly insecure. At ages 14, 15, 16, probably up to about 18, things started to level out a bit in that regard. I started to have some, started to have some friends, you know, that I I don't know, that I trusted their perspective. And then I got to a place where I was I realized, most people, I just, I don't like that guy, and I don't care what he thinks.

But boy, up until that part, it really was insecurity that drove a lot of the decisions that I made and things, and I, the question I've asked myself again and again throughout my life is, could your time in those ages have been better. And the answer is, I don't know that you can be 15 years old and not have that insecurity.

I think it's baked into the program, but it's so easy to look back and go, Oh, well now I would make a different decision. And I was like, well, you wouldn't feel that way now.

Stephanie Goss: Mm

Dr. Andy. Roark: It's almost unfair to criticize the decisions that you made early in your life because you just, you weren't the person that you are now, and you can't have been the person you are now.

That's part of just being a teenager and going through that period. I look at my kids and I hear the story that you tell about your son and it breaks your heart because you see it and you see that insecurity just writ large But there's nothing that you can do to make that insecurity go away.

And you know, you have to try to talk to your kid and say, this is, it's going to be okay. This is going to pass. Why do you think they feel that way? And you can do all of those things, but it just, it doesn't help very much because they just can't see it because they're in it. 

I think that probably the hardest part as a parent is just being there and being supportive and trying to help them get perspective in the limited way that you're able to get perspective when you don't have that much experience. When your hormones are raging, when you're insecure, when you don't know who you are as a person. It's just not a fun experience. And, I don't know, I've thought a lot about that, obviously, as the father of two teenage girls.

It's just, boy, it's tough. It's not a part of my life I would want to go back to.

Stephanie Goss: Well, it's funny too, because, you know, I apply the things that we teach in Uncharted and, and really like the communication tools that I have learned and are in my toolbox and I apply them at home as well. And so we had this whole conversation about how you express to someone and how you have the hard conversation, right?

I don't like the way you're treating me. I, if we're going to be friends, I don't want to be treated this way. And talking about boundaries and everything like that. And he's he's just gonna, he's just gonna laugh at me if I say that to him. The sad part is he's not wrong because they're teenage boys, right?

So I was just like, I know buddy. And I said, I, you just got to hang in there. Like it will get better. I promise. And so then he's, we were sitting on the couch together having this conversation and he got quiet for a second looks at me and he's like, it's okay, mom. He's like, I know that they have no frontal lobe development yet.

He's like, he's like, it'll, it'll be fine when they actually grow up. He's like, but I'm never going to grow up because I don't want to be an asshole.

Dr. Andy. Roark: That's, that's what it means to grow up.

Stephanie Goss: Yes! I just, oh god, I just died. I was like, this kid, man, he was just but speaking of jerks, we've..

Dr. Andy. Roark: Oh man. 

Stephanie Goss: We've got a good, we've got a good mailbag this week and I'm excited to talk about the bad blood here. It's interesting. So as I said, speaking of jerks, but we got an email from a technician who works in a practice and they're really struggling because they are in an environment where the team is doing some bashing of clients and in, in reading through it and reading it.

You know, obviously we only get one side of the story when we get a mailbag. But from what we read I don't think that this is actually jerky people in their practice. I think this technician is just really struggling because they've had some changes in their practice. And in particular, they have made some significant changes to their workflow.

And a lot of the feedback from clients about the changes have been wonderful. The clients are super happy with it. And there are some clients who were used to the old workflow and don't really like change. And probably some moments where the workflow has fallen apart because it's new. And so there have been clients who have complained about it.

And the team is using the defense mechanism, not unlike a teenager of, it's not our fault. So they should just deal with it. And doing that kind of client bashing and talking smack about like, why are they having such an attitude? I can, in my head, I can imagine.

Dr. Andy. Roark: why don't, why can't they text like a normal person?

Stephanie Goss: Right, exactly. Like, I can imagine.

Dr. Andy. Roark: You know, like totally.

Stephanie Goss: Right? I think we all can imagine that kind of client bashing because we've all, I think we've all heard it. And certainly, you know, I think if we're really honest with ourselves, we've probably all done it at some point.

Dr. Andy. Roark: I was gonna say, we've all done it. Yeah,

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, you know, I think about it. Like, I've done it. But so this technician is struggling because they're like, I feel like we have a great team.

I feel like our practice owners take care of us. Like I really enjoy working at this practice and it weighs on me how I hear the team talk about our clients because I don't like it just in general. But then also there's a physical environment in this practice where it's a small building and they're like, I think sometimes the clients hear us say things and that really bothers me.

And they're like, I don't know what to do. I feel like I need to talk to the practice owners about it, but can you help me figure out how to have this conversation? It's a hard conversation. And this one peaked my interest for a variety of reasons. And I'm super curious to hear what you, uh, what you think about it.

Dr. Andy. Roark: Yeah, I like this one. This is super, super common. A couple things we just laid out up front. You touched on this, but context is important. Small building,

Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm.

Dr. Andy. Roark: exam room right up on the front desk. Small team. So, we're not talking about 35 people. We're talking about less than 10 in the practice. I think this is a really well thought out letter.

I really like this person's idea and perspective. I think they're really trying hard. I thought it was really cool that they said, I'm coming into this practice and they questioned themselves, which I think is really good. I think introspection is good in limited amounts. I think introspection is good.

Naval gazing can go way off the rails, but just thinking like, is this possibly me? She said basically. Maybe it's just me and I'm just sensitive because I'm coming in from a new place and I'm seeing it. I thought that was, I thought that question of, am I taking this too seriously? I thought it was a great question.

I also like that she mentioned, you know, this is an independent practice and she's like, I feel like I should talk to the practice owners. But also, I'm not sure if I'm overblowing this or if it's worth, or if it's worth going through. going to them. So that's sort of the context that was also laid down in this letter.

This is a great letter. She gave us a lot of meat on the bone, really gave us some good context to understand what's going on and then asked the really nice question of kind of what do I do with this?

And so I want to pick up on something that you said as you sort of laid this down, Stephanie. You said the team is saying sort of negative things about the clients who are making mistakes as they get registered online or do whatever, and as they check in and blah, blah, blah. And you said, well, you know, the team is using this defense mechanism. And I think that's spot on.

And I think that's a really great place for us to start headspace is assuming good intent on all points. Parts so of course assuming good intent on the part of the clients is always good and like that should be a well taught skill that everybody just has and say just when in doubt assume good intent on the part of the client and repeat We have to assume good intent on everybody's part.

So assume good intent on the part of the people that you're now working with, because it is not going to be good for you to assume that you work with a bunch of jerks or bullies or toxic people or insecure people or whatever, I think the healthiest way to look at this is a self defense. mechanism or a coping strategy and a writer even said that like I think this is a coping strategy. Or they say that it's a coping strategy if it gets come up just for them to deal with frustration.

Stephanie Goss: hmm. Mm hmm. 

Dr. Andy. Roark: I think assuming good intent all around seeing it as the defense mechanism that it is I think that's important.

I think you can see it as a coping strategy. I think that's fair to say. I would say that bashing clients is a coping mechanism like drinking alcohol is a coping mechanism. It is. It does help you cope. It has long term consequences, especially if it gets out of hand. You know what I mean? And so it can be a coping mechanism and still not be

Stephanie Goss: Doesn't mean it's healthy. Yeah.

Dr. Andy. Roark: a healthy mechanism, especially at volume or over time. So anyway that's it. So that's sort of the first, the first thing that I started. And so that's a headspace for me. The other thing I really love, I'm just giving a love fest for this letter, but the other thing I really love is how transparent this person was when they write in and she says, she didn't use the term, I need to protect my peace, but that's what I took from it, was she was like, I just can't, I don't want to do this. I don't like bashing clients, its not fun, she, it was, it's funny, she did not say, it's bad for patient care, it's bad for workplace culture, she said, I just, I'm tired, it makes me tired, I don't like being around it, and I was like, bless you, child like, bless your heart.

Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Dr. Andy. Roark: I really do that level of I'm not trying to say what's best for other people. 

Stephanie Goss: I know what I 

Dr. Andy. Roark: I know what I want. Yes. That is such a position of power. And I think a lot of times we fall into this. It's bad for culture. And I read somewhere that client bashing causes all of these things.

I think there is something so beautiful and pure and true in saying to yourself, I don't enjoy this. I don't like being around it. It changes the way that I feel in my day. I'm like good. I love it. I love that sort of insight into yourself and being honest about how you feel because when we get into action steps. I'm going to use that to really unlock this little path that I think is valuable. So anyway, that was part of my headspace in getting started.

Do you have anything in getting started in headspace? I want to get into some strategy sort of headspace philosophy but just as far as when you read this letter were there other things that you want to pull out?

Stephanie Goss: Yeah. No, I think you covered them. I think this was a wonderful letter. There's love for the clients, which is great because so often, especially right now in our industry the last five years have been exhausting and people are tired. And we've talked about it on the podcast, like letting yourself use that as an excuse to slide down a slippery slope isn't okay, but it is also part of reality.

And so that's why I said, I think that it is a defense mechanism because it's hard. It's hard when you feel like you're adapting. We know, listen, we know we don't like change in veterinary medicine. And even when you've got a team that has a super positive can do kind of attitude, change is hard.

And you get in there day to day and you're busy with the clients. And then a client doesn't do the thing that you want. It's really easy to slide down that slope. Like I said, I, I've done it where you, you're just smack talking like, why can't they just do, what we want, or, that client, even the situation it may not even be about that client, but you're irritated because your last appointment was late because they didn't follow the new protocol. And then you go in and you get stuck with a client who's being difficult. It's really easy to blame the whole thing on something that has nothing to do with the actual situation, right?

Like all of those things make sense in my brain as to why this team may be acting some of the way that they are. And I really love that this writer skip to where we usually have to work to get on the podcast, which is okay, let's consider all of this. But then also you have to set all of this aside and think about yourself.

This writer was already there, which I love. And it was certainly makes our jobs a little bit easier, but I love that you said it, you know, assuming good intent on the part of the team, because I think that's, I think that's important. I think that we've, I think we've covered those big ones.

I've got two, two things from a headspace perspective for the writer to consider that help bridge the gap to figuring out what their action steps are going to be. But the basic stuff, I think you covered.

Dr. Andy. Roark: All right, cool. Still in headspace I think that it's smart for this writer to worry a little bit about what's called shifting baseline. And that's the idea of behaviors, negative behaviors, especially towards clients, can become entrenched. They become just common. It becomes what we talk about.

And then once that happens, it's much harder to get it out of the culture. It's at first we start off and we don't say anything negative about clients. And then we roll our eyes at the clients. And nobody says anything. And it becomes a thing where we communicate with each other by rolling our eyes.

And now, we're all okay with rolling our eyes. And then it becomes muttering under our breath and nobody says anything and now we have still agreed that rolling our eyes and muttering under breath does not constitute bashing clients in our mind. That’s shifting baseline. 

Stephanie Goss: Right. Cause the clients can't hear it. Right?

Dr. Andy. Roark: However you justify it, no one rolls into practice the first day, throws the doors open, says grand opening and immediately starts gossiping and bashing clients.

Those are insidious behaviors that creep in a little bit and a little bit and a little bit and they get normalized and then the next level appears and that doesn't get knocked down and so then that gets normalized and the next level and it builds like that. It's like a, I don't know, it's like a spreading infection, right?

It doesn't. You don't suddenly have staph all over your body. It starts in a little spot, and if it doesn’t get killed.

Stephanie Goss: mm hm. 

Dr. Andy. Roark: So anyway I, shifting baseline is real, and you can also catastrophize these things, right? Just because somebody has a bad day and rolls their eye, that can doesn't mean you're headed towards a workplace culture meltdown, necessarily. 

Stephanie Goss: Right, toxic cesspool.

Dr. Andy. Roark: You know what I mean? Exactly, toxic cesspool. And again, we see people who are like, I heard so funny. There's an old far side comic about the cowboys sitting around a campfire and one of them says, whoa, Cletus just said a discouraging word. And it's. And I think of that as whoa, did you just say a discouraging word?

It's not catastrophic. It happens to the best of us. We don't have to have a panic attack. But also I think this person is right to have their eyes on this and go Ooh, is this gonna be a problem? Is this gonna get worse? So anyway shifting baseline is real but we don't have to catastrophize.

And the last thing I would say in Headspace, and this is sort of for our writer, this is a person who's not the boss, but they're seeing these behaviors and they want to engage. At some point, you get to pick your poison. And what picking your poison looks like here is making the decision of do you want the comfort of not saying anything or of going along with the behavior?

And then there's not going to be tension between you and the other employees. You know? but they're going to continue to talk to you about how stupid the clients are. Like that's the downside. Or, are you going to figure out a way to indicate that you're not on board with this conversation? Maybe not be the most popular person for a day, or maybe not be included in all of the conversations that are happening in the practice. There's no way out. You're either going to be in.

Stephanie Goss: There's some impact.

Dr. Andy. Roark: Exactly, you're going to be in, or you're going to be the nerd who is out, and being in has its own set of problems, because you're going to keep hearing about this, and you may hear about it more. So anyway, that's,

Stephanie Goss: It's it's 

Dr. Andy. Roark: I wish that wasn't true. 

Stephanie Goss: Just like in high school, right? It's like if you're, you're, you're in the in crowd and that has, you know, its consequences. I think about them, you know, I think about, again, dating ourselves, like I think about mean girls, like you're in the middle of it and that's got its own set of problems and consequences or you can be on the outside of it.

Dr. Andy. Roark: It’s funny that we brought up about highschool in the beginning. It was not planned as far as tying to this. We hadn't discussed it at all other than we were just sitting down and talking. But it really does line up of like, Do you want to hang out with the mean girls? And if you do, you're going to be kind of expected to be one of the mean girls.

And you're going to deal with the problems of being around the mean girls. Or, are you going to indicate to them that you don't want to be involved with what they're doing. And there's fallout to that. Now hopefully, the people, and again I think it's important to come back to this. The writer, I think, was very clear.

These are not mean girls. These are not mean people. They're just, this is a little thing that people are doing. Generally, it seems to be a nice place to be. And so, again, I don't think it's get on board with the bullies and beat people up. Or, be beaten up by the bullies. That's not where we are. And so, the stakes are much lower than that.

But, I think we'd be kidding ourselves if we said at some point, if we didn't say at some point, you're going to have to kind of pick your poison and choose the less of two, not completely ideal options. That's okay. That's just life. But we're going to have to do it.

Stephanie Goss: Yeah. It's funny that's where you ended because I ended up in a similar space, but in a different way. I think in order to decide the way that you tackle this and what action steps you take, I think from a Headspace perspective, I think the work that our writer has to do is really sit back and think to your point, how do they really feel about this? 

Is this something that bothers them enough to want to pick the poison of saying something about it? Or are they gonna, are they gonna live with it? And I think the fact that they wrote in and the way that they wrote in tells us that their poison is that like, they want to deal with this because they like the practice and they want to be there.

And so they want to do something to make a change. And so from that, that's where for me, the headspace in this specific instance is in order to figure out how you're going to drink that poison. I think the writer needs to think about what do they actually control in this situation. I think you brought up one of them already.

Like they can say something to the team. And there's positive potentially consequences and negative potential consequences to that. Their solution that they indicated in a letter was that, well, I feel like I need to talk to my practice owners about it and get their, get their help. And that is, that is also, a valid option.

And I think there's two questions that they have to ask themselves. What do they control? And I think they, a lot of us haven't done the mental work when we get in a situation like this, that the writer has already recognized. They can't control what other people are doing, but they can control their response to it, and they're ready to control that response to it.

But if they hadn't done that work to figure out what do they control in this situation? That's the first step. And then the second step is, who actually can change this situation? And I think that's the bridge between the action steps and the headspace, because who can make a change in this situation?

You have to decide, can your practice owners actually make a change, and what change can they impart here, or does the power in this situation lie with the people who you're working with, with your coworkers? And I think doing some headspace work in figuring out how you want to approach this is really important because I think you, as you pointed out, Andy, there's, there's no way around this.

At some point you do have to pick your poison. And if you're going to approach it, there's going to potentially be consequences positive and negative on, on both sides. And so thinking about who can make the change here and approaching it from the position of the person who has the most power to make changes, probably a really smart step in terms of action steps.

Do you want to take a little break and then we can dive into action steps and how we approach this.

Dr. Andy. Roark: I do. 

Stephanie Goss: All right, let's do it.

Dr. Andy. Roark: Let’s do it.

​Stephanie Goss: Are you a veterinary practice owner who's ready to take control of your business and your life? If so, you should join us for the Veterinary Practice Owners Summit in Atlanta, Georgia, December 5th through the 7th. Our Uncharted POS, Practice Owners Summit, that is, a get together of, um,  around the industry who want to get together and figure out how to make their businesses work for them, not the other way around.

It's designed to help practice owners like you master the art of business ownership. And this year we have got a great lineup of leaders who are coming to the table ready to present workshops and also help us facilitate three days of awesomeness. We've got four badass female practice owners who are all bringing their own take and perspective on practice ownership to the table.

We have got a veterinary practice broker who is coming to talk about exit strategy and money. We have got some of our team, myself, my partner in crime here on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only Tyler Grogan, CVT. The three of us are going to be your ringleaders for this weekend of fun. It's all happening in Atlanta, Georgia, and I want to see you there.

So head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/events to check out not only the practice owner summit, but all of the events that we have coming up between now and the end of the year and into 2025.  

Dr. Andy. Roark:  So for action steps, for me I think I know where this person's kind of going. I think they've done a good job of sort of laying out their thoughts and things like that. One of the big things that I would say, and I liked how they set or set up their headspace. This person is a paraprofessional.

All right, so for action steps, for me I think I know where this person's kind of going. I think they've done a good job of sort of laying out their thoughts and things like that. One of the big things that I would say, and I liked how they set or set up their headspace. This person is a paraprofessional.

They're a staff member, they're not in charge, they're not the manager, they're not the lead CSR. They're just, they're one of the team.

Speak for yourself is something that we can always do like this is the maturity that I wish I had in high school that I didn't have, but I would have now. And so when I say speak for yourself, the way that we communicate is important, right? 

If I say to you, Stephanie Goss, you stop client bashing. It's bad for this practice and it undermines what we're trying to do here and it damages the culture. That's going to sound very different to you than to me say, hey, I'm sorry, I can't talk negative about clients.

It just, it gets me down and then I just don't enjoy, I don't enjoy my day if I get into that headspace. I'm sorry. Isn't that different?

Stephanie Goss: Those two things feel very different.

Dr. Andy. Roark: They feel very different. And one of my things here is, and I just found this to be, it's putting your own oxygen mask on. I'm not, especially because this person is new in the practice, they're not an established leader.

But even if you are an established leader and you use language like that, it will carry weight because people look to you as a role model, you know, to some degree. And so, there's great power in not saying, this is bad, this is not how we behave, this is not in our values, just saying I can't. I can't get into, I can't get into client negativity, it just takes a toll on me and it, puts me in a bad mood and it tanks my day and so I, I can't go down that road.

Stephanie Goss: Well, I think it's really important to pick apart the difference there because in the first version, anyone is immediately going to be put on the defense when they feel like they're being chastised. 

Even if it's a gentle, you know, even if you're gently chastising them, they're going to immediately feel defensive and our human lizard brain mechanism for defense is to immediately deny or defend or lay blame elsewhere to protect ourselves, or, you know, we're trying to protect our little brain. And so that's not going to be very effective. But when you, you choose this, the latter, you're making it about you. It's not about them.

It's about how you feel and how it impacts you. And so they can choose to brush it off or, play it down or be like, Oh, you're so, you know, you're being so ridiculous. You're being so dramatic. It doesn't, it's not a good look for them because here it is. You're being honest and open and like, Hey, I like working with you. And I don't, this makes me sad. And I don't want to be around that. Like 

Dr. Andy. Roark: This makes me sad. Oh, that's a good one.

Stephanie Goss: Someone someone can choose to be rude back, but it's, it, that it's never going to look good. And so when we talk about it in that high school kid context it's Oh, yeah. Okay. Maybe I want to choose my words more wisely.

Maybe I want to choose my battles more wisely. So it's really important to pick that apart because using that language that makes it about you and about how you feel is so much more powerful. 

Dr. Andy. Roark: Sure, it's the old, it's not you, it's me breakup which I also learned about in my teenage years. Yeah, , but it's, it's exactly that is. I love it. I think it's a great way. I think what I would say to our listeners, figure out what the one sentence response is that feels right coming out of your mouth.

And whether it is I can't I have, try to think about exactly how to say it. I can't get negative about the clients. It just makes me sad. that's it. Say that. And then slightly sort of turn your chair and, and move on. Don't shame the person. Don't get mad at the person.

Immediately re-engage them on a different subject. Ask them a question about something totally different. Don't make it a thing. But that one line I can't, dude, I, I love our clients. It's, I have to love our clients. In order to enjoy my day. And then go on, and that, that's it. But really, you can do it.

You can say it with a smile on your face. It's not a condemnation of them. It's not them, it's me. And I just say, hey, I'm I am new. I gotta have a good outlook on our clients, or else my days just are not fun. 

Stephanie Goss: It still puts, it still does the appropriate and kind work that the writer did for themselves in their letter, which is, it's just setting a boundary. It's just saying to somebody else, hey, this is how I feel about this. And I don't like it. It doesn't have to be you don't have to go from where you're feeling today to having a sit down conversation with the practice owners, right?

Like this can be a multi-step process. And it comes off in the end if you have to go there, right? If you put up boundaries for yourself and if you say to the team, Hey guys, this really bothers me. It makes me really sad when we talk about clients. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna work on my records over here because I don't want to be a part of this.

However, it feels comfortable for you to say what you're going to say. You've now taken a step and if they continue to do the thing, if you've put up a very clear boundary and you can say and demonstrate, Hey, this is what I did to take action. This is how I approached it. You're starting the process so that if you have to have the sit down conversation with your practice owners, it looks very different when you go to your boss, whether it's a whatever.

And you say, Hey this person is doing this thing that bothers me. Well, as a manager, my first question to you is going to be, what have you done to try and change that? And if you tell me, well, I'm talking to you, I'm going to say, turn right back around and walk out of my office and go have the conversation with them first, because I can't do anything about it at this point.

If you haven't even talked to them, there's nothing I can do. That's going to actually solve this problem. But if you can go to your leader and you're like, here's the challenge that I'm facing. Here are the steps that I've taken to try and solve this problem already. I need your help to figure out how to move forward from here.

Those are also two vastly different conversations. And so from an action step perspective, I think that it's really, really important to set that boundary for yourself. And it's a simple thing that you can do.

Dr. Andy. Roark: I want to say more about setting the personal boundary, and then I think that there's a step in between the two that you laid down, that we can use, that I actually like. Alright, so, setting the boundary, I agree, just communicating to people like, like in a very soft way, I I'm out, this is not, I don't, I can't go here mentally, it's just not good for me.

I think that's great, and I think, honestly, Most everybody will respect that especially if you just say it makes me sad. For my own mental health I have to I love our clients. I have to love our clients. That's just what I need and then be done. That is actually a really powerful thing. 

Now, will they go and talk to each other probably so But you shouldn't have to you shouldn't have to be around it a full stop And so you shouldn't have to be around it and that's that's okay. If they're talking right next to you, you can say the same thing of like guys the, it makes me sad when we dunk on our, when we dunk on the clients, even if they deserve it.

It just erodes my desire to help them, and I just, I, I don't want that. And you can be done. So you can say those types of things. Again, these are not things I would have said to the guys acting like jerks when I was 15, but if I was magically back there, I would say these things, and they would say, Oh, that guy's not as cool as I thought, and I would say, 

Stephanie Goss: hmm. I don't care. 

Dr. Andy. Roark: about how cool you think I am. Like, I don't care. Um, that's, but again, that comes with perspective and time but that's where, that's where the happiest place to be is in that same vein. This person says, you know, the clients are in the building and they do this and the exam room is right there up at the front.

Uh, my very similar boundary is if somebody says something and there's a and there's a client in that room, I'm going to put my finger up to my lip. In the universal, we need to hush. 

Stephanie Goss: There’s a client right there.

Dr. Andy. Roark: Yeah, shh. Exactly right. I put my finger up to my lips and then I'm going to point at the exam room and, and when someone's not around there, I would just say, guys, the clients can hear everything we say up at the front desk. And that's it. It's again, it's not saying. You're undermining our values. This is a toxic behavior. The clients in the room can hear everything. As soon as there starts to be anything, I will point at the room and raise my eyebrows and just,

Stephanie Goss: And that's really smart because what it's going to do is make people reconsider not only the behavior that you're hoping to curb. But also think about all the stuff we talk about in the day in a, like, especially in a female dominated field where we tend to get close with our coworkers. If you said that to me, I would immediately turn tomato red because I would be thinking about the conversation that we had about, the weekend out at the, at the bar or, you know, like whatever other things had been discussed.

And I would be thinking, Oh, a client might have heard that. And there are some of us that might not care. And there are others that would immediately be like, Oh, I better reconsider what I'm saying. You know? So we need that reminder, especially for those of us that have a tendency to get excited and be a little loud,

Dr. Andy. Roark: yeah. I'm not, I might also overplay or overstate maybe the transparency of the walls a little bit. I would err on the side of caution as far as hey, you know, they can hear things in there. Just for that reason. So those are fairly simple passive sort of things that I can do to protect my own peace and to just kind of send the signal to those guys like I guess I'm not really on board.

A lot of times a single person or two that kind of takes that perspective can sort of keep things in check. Now if you have someone who is determined to be negative, to be angry, to gossip, they're just going to go around you.

Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm

Dr. Andy. Roark: This goes back to what Stephanie said at the very beginning of, what do you control?

And like, you're not the boss of these people, you're not their manager you can't control. If they want to go back to the back and say negative things about the clients, you're not in a place to police that. And, if that does happen, you're going to have to decide how you feel about that.

Continuing to be here and what you're at what your steps are. Okay, so that's that the other action step I would put on the table and I say this in all honesty as a business owner if you are seeing these kinds of things I would appreciate not a formal report not a demand for action, but a proportional heads up Meaning, I would love for one of my front desk people to pop their head in and say, Hey, I don't really know if this is a big deal or not, but I'm starting to hear some grumbling about the clients being dumb when they're engaging with our, you know, new check in system. And I'm not participating or anything and it's not a lot and the things that they're saying are not terrible. But I just it's given me some prickles about being worried that it's a behavior that might catch on. And so I don't know if you want to do anything about it or anything but I at least wanted you to kinda know.

And there is, it may be something that's starting to get started, and we almost never get that as business owners. And I can't tell you how often people show up and go, Everything's on fire! And I'm like, Why didn't you say this six weeks ago? I was like, well, it wasn't on fire then, it was just gently smoldering. And I'm like, I wish you had told me it was gently smoldering. I could have easily dealt with it before the building was engulfed. But often it's, I don't want to say anything, I don't want to say anything, now it's too bad. Now it's the sorcerer's apprentice, right? When Mickey Mouse has got the magic, he gets the magic wand and he's trying to clean up and he doesn't want to say anything.

And before any, the wizard shows up and fixes everything. It's complete pandemonium and the whole wizard's laboratory is flooded. And there's bucket wielding mop people everywhere. And just like, if you had had immediately said, Hey, I'm just noticing this living bucket is making a mess. I could have fixed that very easily.

And so anyway, that's maybe a bit of an odd metaphor but you get where I'm going.

Stephanie Goss: I do, I love it and it's so funny that you said that because I'm gonna, I'm gonna maybe Jedi mind trick that one, one level up, because I think you and I, you're in my head.

Cause we have the same action set, but from very different perspectives. I think the way that I might suggest approaching it, As a team member and also as the manager is if you came to me and you said, Hey, I'm seeing this thing. I don't know if it's really anything to worry about. I'm not necessarily participating in it, but I just want you to know about it.

I'd be like, are they trying to start drama? Like I'll be honest. That's the first thought that would go through, would go through my head. And maybe that's just 

Dr. Andy. Roark: I would not have that thought. Okay.

Stephanie Goss: That's just the difference in our perspective, because I think probably first with the manager hat and second with the owner hat.

But if you came to me and you said, Hey, we were getting, we've had great client feedback on the changes in our workflow. We've had some clients that have struggled with it and it seems like the team, it bothers the team. There's, there's some days where we've been in kind of a funk and there's some gossiping and there's some conversation happening.

I wonder if we can review. the new protocols as a team and talk about what is going well and what we might be able to help the clients with because I just feel like that would make all of our lives even better. I am going to action the mess out of that as a leader and an owner because you're coming to me not only with a problem that impacts our clients, but you're coming to me with an easy solution.

It's hey, can we just talk about, can we just, as a group, can we talk about this workflow? I am like, that's going to light me up and I'm going to be like, why yes. And also would you like employee of the month for bringing something like this to my attention before it's a giant, one star review flaming us on Yelp. So very, very similar, but in very different very different ways of going about it.

Dr. Andy. Roark: yeah, if you, if I was the business owner and you came to me and you said that, just hey, this is a thing that's, that's going on, and just wanted to put on your radar and blah blah blah, I would probably nod my head, and then I would add it to the agenda for the next huddle or whatever.

And granted, context matters. This is a small group, it'd be really easy to pull everybody together. And so I like to think that we're having little huddles, whether they're in the morning, of like, hey guys, let's just run through our day real fast. I think that's so great, especially with a small team. Oh, chef's kiss.

But, I'd wait, I'd put on my agenda. I might not do anything about it today. Might not even be tomorrow. But, next time we get together, I'm gonna pull everybody together, I'm gonna say, guys, I want to do a quick run through on our new check in system. How's it going? How's everybody feeling about it?

I feel like it's going well. I feel like we're working well together. How are you guys doing? Great. How do you think the clients are doing? Are they getting it? Are there ways that we can support them? Things like that. And then, I would see where the conversation goes. And then at the end, I would say, Hey, I know that there's clients who probably struggle with this.

And I know we've introduced something new. Guys. Do me a favor, be patient with these people. They're trying, new technology is always gonna be hard. There's always gonna be people who are struggling. Remember that we're dealing with people, they're stressed out, they haven't done this before.

Remember, like, let's just all agree to give grace to clients and make sure that we're being positive and supportive. It doesn't do us any good to get frustrated at them because then we're just frustrated and they don't even know that we're frustrated and it just, it brings us down and It doesn't make anything any better.

And so anyway, if you're getting to the place, if clients are really struggling, I want you guys to let me know and we will figure out other ways to support them. So it's important not to say don't complain. Also, we're not going to do anything to help you. If it really, if it really is to a point where people are struggling, let us know.

We'll make adjustments. Otherwise, remember to give grace. Remember to assume that everyone's doing their best. Know that some people are not. going to be good with technology. Imagine that your parents were trying to get in and they were struggling and treat them, treat the clients like you treat them. and so that's, I, I would say something like that.

And then let's see how it goes. But it is, I would start with that level of very soft touch, but we would talk about it as a group. And I would try to open up the floor to get agreement for those guys that, yeah, it doesn't help us to get frustrated. Yes, it is. I would try to validate them. It's easy to get frustrated, especially when people are struggling with technology.

Know that's never going to go away. It's all, we're always going to have to deal with it.

Stephanie Goss: I was going to say the same and I might even say, you know, we've we've all had those moments where we want to, roll our eyes or make comments about the clients, myself included, like you get that difficult client. And the first thing that you want to have slip off your tongue is, why do they have to be so difficult?

I get it. I do. You're validating the scenery for them. And also. I also know that we care about the clients. And so I, I have to, in that moment, what I have to do is just try and take a deep breath and set it aside. And what I would like you all to do is if you find yourself again, not saying you're doing the behavior already, but I'm thinking future facing.

If you find yourself in a position where you feel like you just want to complain about a client or you can't stop rolling your eyes hard enough and you can't set it aside let's figure out a mechanism to let me know, right? 

Dr. Andy. Roark: Yeah. Come, come and tell me and like,

Stephanie Goss: that's because that's probably when we need to look at it and see what is actually going on here, right?

So you're giving them permission to feel that way. You're just asking them to do something healthier behaviorally with that emotion and that feeling and that's a better long term outcome for them as a person, but also the team as a whole.

Dr. Andy. Roark: Yeah, I spot on. I completely agree. That's what I would do. Again, as a member of the team and not the manager, not the team lead, things like that you've got a limited number of tools in your toolbox. I hope that we sort of showed you a couple ways to kind of use them, but I really think Sort of summarizing all of this, remember to assume good intent on the part of your colleagues, think of this as a self defense mechanism, speak for yourself, protect your peace, let people know like, ah, this is no good.

The old like point, pointing over at the exam room and, just indicating, hey guys, there's somebody in there.

Stephanie Goss: Hmm. Right. Mm

Dr. Andy. Roark: Or saying to them, hey guys the clients are going to hear what we talk about in that, in that room. In that room, so everybody, everybody just beware. Mention it to the practice owner. That's, and in proportion, I really like when the writer says, I'm not sure if this is a big problem or not.

I'm like, as a business owner, I'd appreciate if you came to me and said, I'm not sure if this is a big problem or not. It's funny that you would think of that as drama. Maybe it's the high school girl versus high school guy experience. I'm like, no. But again, I don't really care if it's stirring drama because I'm, I'm not going to fly off the handle and have an all hands emergency meeting and, and put up a PowerPoint about, about the importance of workplace.

I'm just going to say to everybody, how's it going? You know, and that's it.

Stephanie Goss: That makes sense. 

Dr. Andy. Roark: I wouldn't make a big presentation of it. I would just talk to everybody and tell them they're doing great and ask them how they feel and ask them, you know, how they feel about the clients and remind them that our clients are great and that we, benefit from assuming good intent on their part and we should feel good about helping them not frustrated.

Stephanie Goss: Let's see what happens. 

Dr. Andy. Roark: Yeah, that's it. So I, anyway, I, we, we rarely get questions from this early. In the downward spiral. I'm like, oh, this is this is easy. We can just apply a little pressure to the steering wheel here. I think we can get out of this little rut. This is this seems very doable. So anyway, great letter really appreciate our our listener putting it to us. Really good. 

Stephanie Goss: Me too. This was great. Have a, I think that's all we've got, right?

Dr. Andy. Roark: I know I'm good with that. That's great. Yeah. 

Stephanie Goss: Have a great rest of your week, everybody. Take care.

Dr. Andy. Roark: Yeah. Take care everybody. See you later

Stephanie Goss: Hey, everybody. Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode. We really enjoyed it and we hope you did as well. I just wanted to take a quick second and say, if you aren't currently on our untreaded newsletter, you should head over to uncharted vet.com forward slash assemble. Yes, that's right. 

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