This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and veterinary practice management whiz, Stephanie Goss dive into a heartfelt letter from a listener grappling with burnout in the veterinary world. Despite swimming in a sea of perks—great pay, abundant time off, and a tight-knit support system—the listener finds themselves treading water, feeling stuck in the profession's turbulent waves. They're struggling to keep their head above water amidst rising client demands and a sinking sense of passion. Andy and Stephanie embark on a buoyant journey through the listener's challenges, sprinkling in their trademark ride to Camp Tough Love. Together, they explore different mindsets and paddle through practical strategies to reignite the listener's love for veterinary medicine. Let's get into this…
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss: Hey everyone. The Uncharted Veterinary Conference is just around the corner. And I have to take a quick second to say thank you to our amazing industry partners, because without them, the Uncharted Veterinary Conference wouldn't be possible. So from the bottom of our uncharted hearts, I just want to say thank you to this year's partners Nationwide, Nutramax, Hill's Pet Nutrition, CareCredit and InTouch Practice Communications. This group is absolutely amazing. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. From the whole crew.
Hey, everybody, I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the uncharted podcast. Today, we're back in the mailbag. We got an email from a podcast listener who is writing in response to a recent episode that Andy and I did on burnout. We got a great email, well, on that episode about how to recognize burnout.
And this episode is the follow-up, it's not from our original writer, but from another podcast listener who said, “okay, okay. I listened to you all. And I recognize the burnout in myself and my clinic is not crazy. My job is not bad. In fact, I have a great job. I have a wonderful team and yet, I think I'm seeing some of those red flags that you and Andy talked about in myself. And I'm wondering what to do.” And this, um, this email was just put out there in such a kind and vulnerable way from our writer that I really enjoyed diving into the headspace and the conversation with Andy on this topic, because I think it's such an important one. And I'm really hoping that we did it justice.
So let's get into this. Shall we?
Dr. Andy Roark: And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only Stephanie, I got the blues so bad, Goss.
Stephanie Goss: Oh, we could sing the blues right now.
Dr. Andy Roark: My brother, he's good at gift giving. He pays attention and he gives gifts. And so my youngest daughter has a record player that she's really fired up about. And yes, we do have a subscription to Amazon Music. And yes, she could listen to any song in the world. And just by saying it out loud in one of the rooms in our house, but she would like to pay 50 to have that song on a piece of vinyl.
And she would like other people to do that. So anyway, that's another story. But my brother got her a Miles Davis album. Which is super freakin great. I think it's called Some Kind of Blue. And it's Oh man, it is an all time classic jazz album, and it is just so cool, and my 12 year old listens to Miles Davis, it is, it's pretty awesome, it's pretty awesome.
So we are listening to some blues around here.
Stephanie Goss: I love it. I love it so, so much. That is–
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh man.
Stephanie Goss: That's pretty fantastic. CDs. I'm going, well, I mean, vinyl probably will infiltrate my house at some point. But CDs have made a return in my house. Yes. So, my kid, one of my kids is a Swiftie and is obsessed. And so for Christmas, her aunt got her, Every one of the CDs that she didn't already have to complete her collection, which was amazing.
I pointed out the obvious, or what I thought was the obvious, which is, We don't have a CD player.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah!
Yep,
Stephanie Goss: Cause like you, I was like—
was like she just rolled her eyes at you No, do you know what, well she did, but the, you know what the answer was,
Andy Roark: What?
There's a CD player in my lexus.
Dr. Andy Roark: oh
Stephanie Goss: which is my old almost broken down car that has been sitting in my driveway that she is hoping will become hers.
It's like a 2004 and it has like 200, 000 miles on it, but because it's a Toyota, it goes forever. And she's like, hit that stage where she can see driving happening. It's like just beyond the horizon. And so she literally. Asked for them for Christmas so that she could play them in the car. So now she goes and sits in the car and listens, turns the car on and runs it.
And so that the battery doesn't die. Of course, I'm helping you mama. Cause I'm making sure the battery doesn't die, but also I'm going to sit in here and listen to Taylor Swift, which was fine until my dad heard that sob story. And then my dad just came to visit. Leave it to him. I love him so much. He brought up a whole truckload full of audio crap, including a disc man, which still existed in my parents back in my parents garage, apparently.
And an old, I'm sure you had one of these, an old boom box with like a five disc changer and the detachable speakers. I mean, that was like the height of amazing when we were in. And so he, so now my kid has a boombox in her room and there's, but my younger son has discovered and become obsessed with the disc man.
And so he is all, he's literally walking around his house, holding this disc man with these old fashioned headphones in his ear is anyways. So you know, CDs have made a return in the Goss household.
Dr. Andy Roark: It’s amazing.
Stephanie Goss: We haven't made it to vinyl.
Dr. Andy Roark: It’s all cyclical isn’t it? Like it's all just it all circles
Stephanie Goss: It’s hilarious because they're listening to, they got into like my old CD, because I was like, well I have some CD case, and I pulled out my old, like, binder that has 900 CDs in it, and they've been going through that, and their dad gave them a whole box of CDs, and so it's been like all of the stuff from, you know, 90s, and
Dr. Andy Roark: I bet I've got my CDs somewhere. I can't, I doubt I had the fortitude to chuck them in the, maybe I got fired up and chucked them in the trash. But I would, I'd be blown away because they were so important to me when I was young.
Stephanie Goss: You want a blast from the past.
Dr. Andy Roark: What the heck am I going to do with, you know, two binders full of CDs? But I don't know. But yeah. Oh man.
Stephanie Goss: Anyways, we're off the rails already. Um,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Stephanie Goss: You started it.
Andy Roark. I did. Boy, we've– We've got big stuff going on. We are to, as we record this, we are about to unveil Uncharted Anchor Fest, which is a new shindig that we're doing just, for our members. Um, It is the first Sunday of the month. Every month is kind of where we're going to start.
Get feedback and adjust it, but basically it is a huge dose of uncharted that you can either jump into and do the whole thing for the whole day, the whole half day, or you can just drop in for the parts that you want and we'll lay out the schedule and all that sort of stuff. But it has got 100 percent the uncharted challenges, the leadership challenges, communication challenges.
Case based learning. It's got workshops where you actually make a work product. It's got our hallway conversations, which are mini lectures followed by group discussions and all of it just stacked back to back. All on the same theme so you can show up and just deep dive the whole day and all stack and grow or you just pop in grab the hallway conversation and dip back out.
But this is a it is a new way of learning I think it really emphasizes the strength of Uncharted, which is active learning, it is case based learning, it is skill building over knowledge building, and again, knowledge building is important, but skills are what get it done in the clinic, and so it's focused on skill building, and it's only open to our members.
And so we are rolling this out right now big stuff coming up. I am doing I'm doing team training and turning pain into training in March, and then we have got let's see, we have got, what are we doing in April? In April, we've got Tyler and Maria, and they are doing efficiency.
They are doing team efficiency. Maria is going to lean, I think, into sort of back Team building efficiency and Tyler's going to lead into moving clients, giving them a great experience while focusing on efficiency and moving clients to the building. And so that's going to be the April one. Anyway, we go on from there, but it's going to be, it's going to be really cool.
So we're just laying out those programs and rolling that stuff out to the community. But it's a big deal, man. It's a great time to be an Uncharted member. You get the Leadership Essentials Certificate for free. You get the Uncharted Anchor Fest on the first Sunday of the month, you've got our knowledge library, you've got our online community, and it's almost the same price as buying the Leadership Essentials Certificate.
It's a freaking ridiculous deal.
Stephanie Goss: we're having a lot of fun and I think what I'm most excited about in this besides kind of being able to dive into a theme in multiple different ways is that is that little like jolt of the Uncharted magic every couple of weeks. Cause I, it really, like, I mean, it's at the heart of what we do creating this, like the idea that it's the conference that never ends.
And people ask us about Uncharted and you and I have wrestled with this over the years. Like. how do we explain what we, because, yes, it's a conference, now it's multiple conferences, now it's multiple events, and it has grown to be this thing, but at the end of the day, almost everybody comes back to, it's this community, and it's this ongoing connection, and I think there's something very true and real to that, and so I am really looking forward to being able to see everybody's faces and connect and kind of, In the sense of like, it's, fun to come together and hear, Hey, if we're talking about team training, like I get, it's my jam to like, talk about ideas and hear what other people are doing in their practice and, you know, collaborate together.
And so I'm really excited for this. I think it's going to be fun.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's easy, like there's a lot of hand waving and a lot of people talking about what you should do and how it should be done. It's a whole different conversation when somebody says, well this is what we're doing. And this is how it's worked and this is how it has not quite worked the way we wanted to.
Like that's, those are conversations worth paying attention to. And we focus on making this happen. Which is why I really wanted to have this different format stacked on top of each other. So we could really unpack that and it's not, it ain't. It ain't a half day of sitting in lecture. I'll tell you that.
It's not what we're doing. Anyway, let’s get into this!
Stephanie Goss: Anyway, yeah, this one, okay, so we got a mail bag that is, a little bit different. We had a writer who loves this, loves the podcast and I appreciate that. Apparently we have good banter and camaraderie and we're pretty funny which I can appreciate sometimes. And they were saying that they just listened to a podcast that we did not too long ago about actually knowing what burnout is.
And they had a follow up question. And they said, my question is this, what if you have good boundaries and you have a great work life balance and you love your team and you rest, you do all the things that you guys talked about. What if you're doing all of that, but you still feel like you're burned out?
And they said, I often feel like I have no right to feel like I'm burned out because I am only working three days a week. I have a great work team. I'm paid really well. I'm compensated really well for my time and energy, but I just feel this lack of motivation and it has been lasting for a while. And they were like, you know, I'm, I've been out of school a while.
I'm in a, you know, small area. My family and my partner feel like this was my dream job and they don't understand why I'm not happy and you know, they were just like, I feel. And they, anyways, they went on to describe some of the changes that they felt in the job and feeling like this, there's more pressure from clients because they're more involved in their pets lives and everything is emotional.
And they were like, I feel emotionally drained a lot of the time when I'm at work. And so they were describing things. And as I was reading it, it's interesting because I was like, okay, I know they listened to the show. And so I'm like ticking the boxes that we talked about, about is this burnout? And I'm like, Oh, okay.
I can see some red flags here. Right? And they were like, look, I'm seeing this in myself. They're recognizing it in themselves as well. And they said, you know, is. Is it that— they said, what advice would you give someone who thinks that they're falling out of love with the profession? I just thought that this was such a wonderfully wonderfully written ask and a really I just appreciated them putting themselves out in a vulnerable way and asking some questions.
And so I'm excited to dig into this with you.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. I really love this question. And the first thing I loved about it was the honesty up at the very beginning and the self awareness. And so I hear stuff all the time about like. I'm not paid enough, and I work so hard, and I work so long, and I'm not saying this stuff's not true. That may be true, but that is the common complaint is, I'm unhappy because of this external thing.
And we get that a lot, and what you do about it depends on what the external thing is.
Stephanie Goss: Right.
Dr. Andy Roark: However, I do think that they're, I think it's refreshing to have someone say, I think I got it pretty good, and it's not doing it for me. And I think that is an interesting question, and I have been there. I, like, this is, this spoke to me in a sort of a deep way.
Yeah, and I think this is worth unpacking. So, I'm super excited about it. I think, so, we'll start with headspace here as we start to look at this. I guess basically the premise for me today is, I feel like I got it pretty good, why am I not happy? And so I want to kind of talk about that and a little bit about what it means to be happy in vet medicine.
And so, You know, I think self awareness is a good start. I think the ability to look at ourselves and sort of say, I don't know. Why? Why do I feel this way? What's going on with me? I think that's really important. I think our writer did a good job of sort of saying, I feel like the clients are emotional and there's sort of emotional burden there didn't used to be.
I have sort of this feeling of exhaustion. And so I think that I think that's the first thing you have to do is audit, right? The first thing you have to do is check your metrics. Like, where are we? What's really going on? And I feel like they did that. And the second thing, then, when you start to look at this is, what is the purpose?
That's the next question I would ask, is to say, if someone says, I think I got it pretty good, but man, I'm just, I'm not feeling this. And then my next question would be, what are you looking for? What are you looking for? Why do you do this job? What does success look like to you? And if you weren't going to do this job, what else would you do?
And those are exploratory, sort of probing questions. I'm not trying to get at much of anything other than to say, you judging yourself against? And the purpose, I think, is really important. I think here's the thing is, I think a lot of us, what happened is there's something that we cared about.
And so we decided to go to vet school and become a veterinarian, or go to tech school and become a technician, or go to become a manager who would run a hospital that you'd be proud of. And somewhere along the way, when we went from purpose, to training, to position, we forgot purpose, and now we're just like, I wanted to go to vet school, and now I did it, and now I'm here, and it's, and I'm not happy.
And the answer lies back before vet school and says, well, why did you go to vet school? And you're like, Oh, because I wanted to make this difference. Oh, because this thing was important to me. But we forgot why we went to vet school, why we went to tech school, why we decided to become a manager, why we decided that medicine was important to us.
And so part of us reconnecting with that purpose is, a good thing of saying, Why did you get here? What were you trying to accomplish? And don't tell me you just like animals. Like something happened at some point where you were like, Yeah, this is what success looks like to me. And that's why I asked, what does success look like?
Because often the reason the purpose we got into this is deeply tied to what we actually think that success is. And then what would you do instead? That's just sort of a quick check. If you were like, Oh, I would Yeah, teach in elementary school in a heartbeat, I would say, “Oh, there might be something there.” If you're like, I don't know, then that actually kind of makes me rest a little bit more easily. And that's like, that's just sort of malaise. You know, that's this sort of general, I don't, I'm not happy, but I also don't know what's going to make me happy. And that makes me say, well, it's probably not that medicine.
Then if you're like, I have no idea what alternatives would necessarily be good for me. I'm not sure that you're necessarily burning out on that medicine. If nothing else looks good, that can be a marker for depression and it could be a marker for burnout, right? Because again, when you're depressed, you're like, I don't want to do anything.
And so there's that, but anyway, those are just some of the questions I ask. I would ask someone who's in this position to try to get my head around like. What are you doing and what do you see as your alternatives? And if they have clear alternatives, I would say this might be a vet medicine problem.
If they don't tend to have alternatives or they don't really know what success looks like, that's okay, but that makes me less sure that this is a vet medicine problem and think more of this is a, life in figuring out what we want to do when we grow up and what the meaning of it all is. And so that, that's where, my head is to start off with headspace.
Stephanie Goss: I got to kind of a similar ending spot as you, but I think we have to take a trip to Camp Tough Love.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oooh, Camp Tough Love
Stephanie Goss: So buckle up.
Dustin Bays: All aboard! Well, it's Camp Tough Love, like drinking dish suds. See the creation of determination. Get ready for a safe talk, you might need a stress walk. That's what we do at Camp Tough Love.
Stephanie Goss: The first thing I want to say is, I think that you have to to our writer is you have to put That I have no, the concept that you have no right to feel the way that you're feeling, you have knocked that off.
And you have got to take that out of your vocabulary because you're starting with comparison. You are comparing yourself to someone else and feeling like You have different circumstances than someone else does, and therefore you shouldn't feel this way or you should feel this way instead. And that is a dangerous s that's a slippery path to walk down because the reality is the only thing that you control is your own And I'm going to be talking about how to feel better about your own circumstances and your own self and how you feel.
And so you've got to stop with the comparison and it starts right there with the word choices of I don't have any right to feel this way. And I appreciate what you said, Andy, about having self awareness to recognize that the circumstances may not be what’s contributing to this problem. I am a hundred percent on board with that, like recognizing the fact that maybe you are working a schedule that you want to work and you are supported by boundaries and by family and you, all of the things that they listed about their compensation and support and their team.
That is all supportive and wonderful and it doesn't mean that your, when you frame it, when you frame it the way that they did, it is very negative self talk and it took me a long time to, like realize that vocabulary has a big impact and the words we use matter and so stop comparing ourselves.
And that's really important from a tough love perspective because the other thing when I read this that I thought of is I thought a lot about friends of mine who did a thing. And in this case, this, you know, you talk about someone who makes the investment in themselves and goes to vet school, whether you were the five year old kid who said, I always want to be a vet, or you were the person who was just like, I discovered a love of science and I took an animal. You know, health class to satisfy a requirement, and I fell in love with vet med. Like, whatever, however you got to vet school, you put all of this time and energy into it. And I think I have talked to, over the years, so many people in veterinary medicine who think that The path in clinical practice is the only thing that they can do in veterinary medicine because they went to vet school and they got this degree and therefore this is the path that is in front of them.
And, there's so much, you and I have talked on the podcast before about how much self identity so many of us in veterinary medicine tie up in. Um, and so I think from a tough love perspective, I read the part about them feeling like their family is looking at them and think, you know, they don't understand my, you know, my complaints or my concerns because this should be my dream job. Cause it's, you know, and from that I inferred like, this is what you wanted, right?
It's okay to change your mind. It's okay to want to do something different. It's okay to lose your way on the path. And just because you've done the thing, just because you went to school, doesn't mean that you can't change that. And so I think that from a headspace perspective, like it really is important to, if you really truly want to get at the root of this for yourself, it's gonna take the self awareness that they're already demonstrating, and it's going to involve having to ask yourself some really honest questions.
And I think it's really important to not be afraid if the answers aren't what you think other people might want to hear.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I do agree with that. I'm gonna jump onto that and say, so there's sort of three questions that I would ask, too. And these are just, I'm just shooting in the dark. But number one is, this a comparison problem? Meaning, are you comparing yourself to other people? I see this a lot, especially with heavy Instagram, TikTok users.
People who are on there and they're looking, and you're seeing the front stage of someone else's life, and you're comparing it to yours. And it can make you feel crappy about yourself. And if you're really looking and you're like, These other veterinarians look so happy in there. And look, that woman's actually dancing in the exam room.
Look, I'm not that happy. Like I know that sounds silly. I see that. And so we're not made to compare ourselves to a billion people. We're not. And so if start paying attention to the things that you do that exacerbate those feelings of unhappiness or discomfort. And if you get off of social media feeling worse than when you got on it, you need to recognize that.
And my advice to you is get the hell off social media. I mean, seriously, just, you need to recognize this is not good for you. Take it off your phone, and you can check it once a day on your laptop or whatever, but just recognize that. I see comparison really sucking joy for a lot of people.
Number two, is this an expectation problem? And a lot of times, it's like, you can have a good job. But if you expected people to stop and bow and throw rose petals when you walked into the room, you're gonna feel like you're not getting what you signed up for. And that's ridiculous. And I'm not saying that's what this person says.
But, it's like when I start thinking about the clients and she says or he says, Boy, the clients are more emotional and demanding and blah blah blah. I would stop and say, okay, it that the clients are particularly bad or is it that I had the expectation that people would behave differently and I'm holding on to this idea that I would be perceived as the hero or I would be celebrated or I would be beloved and now that I've actually gotten out here and the inflation is high and people are holding on tightly to their money I'm not getting the love that I thought that I would and so I'm unhappy and I would say, well, you have to let go of that expectation of what it was going to be like to be in this position.
But expectations, you know, people don't get upset about what they get. They get upset about the difference between their expectation and what they get. And so anyway, you should look at your expectations if that's the case. And the last part is, is this a second mountain problem? And so there's this guy, David Brooks, and he wrote a book years ago called the second mountain.
And basically his idea was that in this society, we are sold this idea that there is a mountain and we all kind of identify the mountain a little bit differently. But basically, it's the success mountain, whatever that means to you. It's wealth. It's power. It's education level. It's fame, whatever it is.
But we all look at this mountain. We're like, Yeah, that's clearly what matters. And when I get this degree, make my first million dollars, you know, get a million followers on Instagram, you know, host the Oscars, then I will be successful. I will know I'm successful. Everyone else will know that I'm successful, and I'll be happy at the top of that mountain.
And then one or two things happens. Either, you don't make it to the top of the mountain. You don't make that million dollars that you hope to, and that happens to a lot of people. Or, you get the second one, and this is the one that I relate to, is you make it to the top of the mountain. And then when you get there, you realize it's just a barren freakin rock.
And you're like, I don't feel successful. I don't know one. I still question my value or my worth or you know what I mean? Or I still look around and wonder what I'm going to do to fill my days and, you know, and want to make a difference. And I don't know if I'm making it or not. Like, whatever your thing is, if you get to the top of the mountain, you have the same experience as the people who stall out on the side of the mountain.
At some point, you're going to recognize this is not the fulfilling thing. That we were sold on. It was, it is not the thing that's going to make us happy. There's a great speech by Jim Carrey when he was talking about the Golden Globes. And it's, you should Google like Jim Carrey, two time Golden Globe winner.
Because he comes out and he does this speech and he's like, I'm Jim Carrey, two time Golden Globe winner, and I am standing here and wishing that I was a three time Golden Globe winner because then I feel like I would be enough. And I'm like, that's so true. I just thought, I felt that so, I thought that was so good.
And, that's the first mountain. For him, it's the Golden Globes. For somebody else, it's a million bucks. It's whatever it is. But anyway, in this book, Second Mountain, David Brooks says that basically we're all destined to figure out the first mountain is fake.
Stephanie Goss: Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark: And then we stop and we look around and we look around and if we're lucky, we find the second mountain.
And according to David Brooks, the second mountain is interconnectivity. It's being part of a fabric. It's about having people that rely on you and you relying on other people and having that interconnectedness. And that connectedness, that is the fulfillment that we seek. And it's not flashy, you know what I mean?
it's not spectacular, but that. Connection and being a part of something. That's what he says really matters. And so anyway, I really, I, really like the book is okay. I think the idea is really wonderful. It's really, it would be a really good article more than a book. But anyway, I think a lot about the second mountain.
And I say, is this a second mountain problem? Because here we are. And What I'm hearing in this letter is, I've got a good schedule. I make plenty of money. I'm treated well. I make enough money. I'm being treated well at work. I, my team is great. I, you know, like, I like my community. I'm happily married. Why in the heck am I unhappy?
And I would say, Oh, maybe you climb the first mountain, you know, and so maybe the second mountain is what we need to look at is, okay, that stuff is not going to make us happy. It's probably not really about your job. What are you a part of? You know, what would make you feel good just to be a part of and can you be a part of that thing?
And so anyway, those are sort of some of my big questions and all of that kind of comes around in the end to the big question that defines it all is. What experience are you trying to have? And so we're wired in a way where we always pick these things and we say, I want a million bucks.
I want to own my own practice. I want to be the a veterinary neurologist. And the truth is, none of those things are going to make you happy. You're not even imagining those things. When you say, I want to be a veterinary neurologist, you're not imagining a degree. You're imagining an experience. And so what I say to that person is, how does it feel when you're a veterinary neurologist?
And you say, oh, well, I would feel like I am unquestionably smart. And people would know that I, my knowledge is valuable. And I would say, great, you don't need to be a neurologist, honestly. You need to think about how you're going to feel okay about your knowledge level. And, it sounds to me like you're trying to pile up degrees so that you can be validated by other people.
And I think that's probably a bad path. And so, let's figure out how to get you that feeling of intellectual validation. In a way that's maybe a little bit more realistic, or maybe a little bit more in line with what you actually want. And so that was, that's kind of part of it here too, is to say, I would sort of ask this person, say, All of those things I lay down, what experience are you trying to have?
Is it, I don't feel excited, I don't feel thrilled, I don't feel surprised, I feel like my life is on cruise control. Then I would say, I don't know that you need to change your job. I think you need to figure out what's going to make, give you that. that thrill that you're looking for, that feeling that you're growing or doing something different.
If it's like, I don't know, I really, I want to feel appreciated by my community. I would say, great. You don't have to do that in the vet clinic if you don't want to. You can go, you can, get involved in volunteer work. You can work at Meals on Wheels or the local homeless shelter or, at the local animal shelter, or you can go do missionary work if that's your thing. Or you can go and do a humanitarian aid tour, do any of those things. But you don't, it doesn't necessarily have to come down to this fulfillment has to come from my job. my big question is what are you what experience you're trying to have? So anyway, I know it's a lot of questions, but this is this can go so many ways depending on the individual.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah. No, I love that. And I think that is part of where I was going to with the, because they said something that really stuck out to me, which was, you know, their question, which is what advice would you give someone who is falling out of love with the profession? And I think part of this is, are you falling out of love with the profession?
Are you not in love with the job that you're currently doing? And the, I say that because on a personal level, like for me, I experienced pretty significant burnout and clinical depression over the last few years. And what I realized was I actually. I thought that I was this person in the sense that I thought that the answer was I was falling out of love with veterinary medicine and I needed to leave veterinary medicine.
And what I was fortunate to realize is that I was just in a place where the job that I was doing every day wasn't making me happy anymore. And that there still absolutely were things about veterinary medicine that I loved very much and that gave me that sense of purpose and fulfillment and happiness and all of those things.
And the answer may be no, and that's also okay. And so I think, but I think it's really important distinction to think about is what you're doing right now. And that's what I meant about. the path that you set on out of that school or, you know, the path that this person is on now, that's not the only path.
And I think for our, certainly for our families and for our partners, people who are not in veterinary medicine. Of course, they would look at you and say, well, what else would you do? You know, like, yeah, this should be, this was your dream job. You went to vet school to do this thing. Well, there's 10 million things that you can do with your vet degree in the field or outside of the field.
And so I think part of it is stepping back. And I think the ultimate, like headspace piece of this is that there's a lot of questions that you have to ask yourself. And a lot of self reflection work that I think that you have to do.
Dr. Andy Roark: Well, I like this. I like your point about, I think I'm falling out of love with vet medicine. Let's take this and turn this into a relationship metaphor, which works a lot for me. I talk a lot about looking at your job as a relationship and you say, well, I'm falling out of love with my partner.
I go, okay, maybe you are because that happens because people change and grow apart. And so maybe that's it. Or is it possible that you are unhappy for other reasons and your partner is failing to make you happy and you're like, Oh, well, I must not be in love. And it's well, sometimes if we're relying on our partner for validation and, and to make, and to be happy, that's a lot of weight to put onto your partner.
And so I go, well, if I don't know, you see what I'm kind of getting at here, I was like, maybe, it's vet medicine, maybe it's not vet medicine, maybe it's just a general malaise. And we go, boy, I'm not happy when I go to work. And I go, well, are you happy when you get off of work? I don't know.
I'm just digging around at that a little bit of like, how much is the actual job? And here's the other thing too, let's keep the relationship metaphor just for one more beat. And what I would say is, sometimes we fall out of love with someone who's a good person and they're not toxic and they're not terrible.
It's just not What we thought it was going to be or we're growing apart or whatever. And so When this person says I got a good job and I got a good team and they treat me. Well, why am I not happy? The idea that they're not broken or awful, and so I must be wrong in how I'm feeling, that's not necessarily true either.
And so it's sort of complicated in that way, but I keep circling back around. And that was actually why I asked the question early on is, what would you do differently? Where else would you work? And if you're like, oh, well, this is the place that I would go where this is what I would do. That might give you a little bit more clarity that maybe, they're not bad at all.
They're just, you're just, you just need something different. You know, I've had people you know, I've always just been so proud of the fact that Jessica Vogelsang used to work for us. So, Dr. Jessica Vogelsang is now the chief medical officer at AAHA. And she worked with me for years back on the Dr. Andy Roark site and things like that. And ultimately we parted ways and it wasn't even. It wasn't even bad feelings or anything, but she was like, I've done this for a couple of years, and I'm, you know, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go do these other things. And she went on and got, she's a chief medical officer at a telehealth company and did some other stuff.
And it was like, I never, I was always just thrilled that she was with us when she was with us. And, it was like, that happens where you just say, I've enjoyed this. And I've kind of done what I can sort of do here, and I'm ready to go do other things. And so, I think the mature way is to kind of say, Well, maybe this isn't what I want it to be.
So, anyway, that's a lot of head space. It's a lot of kind of nebulous feelings, but I hope we kind of, at least started to give some clarity asking some questions while we get our heads around it. Let's take a break, and we'll come back, and let's actually do some action steps. So, I'm going to start, for anyone who is like, Boy, this is kind of woo and sort of nebulous.
Alright, let's not worry. Let's get this into some hard action steps. And this is the process by which I'd approach it.
Stephanie Goss: Hey friends, our dear friend, Dr. Amanda Donnelley, just released a new book that you should have on your shelf as a practice resource, it's called Leading and managing veterinary Teams: the Definitive Guide to Veterinary Practice Management. Not familiar with Dr. Donnelley? Well, you should be. She recently did an episode on this very podcast about accountability in our teams.
And if you missed it, you should definitely check out episode number 273. When the vet won't go faster because Amanda is a wonderful guest. And if you don't have a copy of her book on your bookshelf, you need to head over to Amazon and get yourself one today. You'll thank me when you're loading up your brain with tips and tricks on how to affect positive change in areas like culture, team development, daily operations in your practice. How to implement effective team training programs, how to recruit and retain the best employees and so much more. Amanda has absolutely jam packed this book with amazing resources and you can find even more on her website to download after you purchased the book. The resources are like a hidden treasure map.
And the book is the key, which is so Uncharted. I absolutely loved it. So head on over to Amazon and grab your copy. Now there's a link in the show notes below. And now back to the podcast.
Andy Roark: All right. You ready?
Stephanie Goss: Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark: Let's get serious about this. So we did all the kind of the squinting and the staring into the smoke and the flames and gazing in the crystal ball. It's time to get to work. Okay. First thing, if you want to try to get out of this spot, you got to do some root cause analysis.
Basically, I don't know how you're going to fix this if you don't know why you're feeling this way. And that's not, that's sort of Camp Tough Love. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's like, I if I don't know what the problem is, I can't fix the problem. And if you don't know what the problem is, you can't fix the problem.
And so root cause analysis, is this really a work problem or is this a life problem? Is this an expectation problem? Is this a comparison problem? Is this a, I'm not having the experience that I want to have. I don't feel safe. I don't feel competent. I don't feel appreciated. Then great. What are we going to do to get you that experience?
But figure out what that root cause analysis is. Oftentimes, for me, when I see people, especially people who are rolling around with this, is a go to reason for me to say, if you haven't tried therapy, I really think that you should. Now, people have different views on therapy. I'm not going to debate other people about the value of therapy or things like that.
I'm not interested in that. I will just tell you for me, I like to take therapy and put it in the same category as business consulting, which means if I have a problem in my business and I am rolling around with it and rolling around with it and rolling around with it and my team is sick of hearing me talk about it, and my spouse is sick of hearing me talking about it, and nobody else wants to talk to me about it, I'm gonna pay somebody to talk to me about it.
And ideally, they're going to bring some real insight. And I am willing to stroke that check and be on that call to talk through this with somebody. But I will pay someone for their time to talk to me if everyone else is talked out or sick about hearing it or I'm not getting the help that I need. I'll pay for that.
The same thing is true with my personal life and my mental health. It's like, look, if I'm at work and I don't know why I'm not happy and I don't know why I'm not happy and I've talked to my spouse and they don't know why I'm not happy and my kids don't know why I'm not happy and my employer doesn't know why I'm not happy, I'm willing to pay someone to say, look, I need to figure out why I'm unhappy at work.
I feel like I'm falling in love with my job. I don't wanna fall in love with my job. I need to get my head around this. And I think that there is a popular perception that if you go into therapy, you should stay in therapy forever. And that's, I, don't think that's true. Maybe some people should, but there is nothing wrong with a six week course of therapy or a three month course of therapy.
We were like, I'm gonna do this for, I'm gonna do this for six weeks. I'm going to get in here and I'm going to talk to this and we're going to work this thing out and that's what I want to work on. And I would not pull the plug at six weeks if you're like, boy, I'm getting a ton out of this, but that's six weeks.
But my point is, you don't have to do this forever. And in my experience, a lot of people get in, if you know what you're going into therapy for and you say, this is what I'm wrestling with, this is what I want to work on, you can actually make it very action oriented and really valuable. And so if you're struggling with root cause analysis, therapy is probably your go to tool.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah. I'm so glad you put that at the top. I was going to be like still on my Camp Tough Loves train, which is you have to, I think you have to talk to someone and you have to talk to a professional because, it does, like, there was enough, for me in reading the letter that we got and knowing that they listened to the first podcast, I'm like, Oh, you're checking this box and you're checking this box at that, like, at that point, you're recognizing things in yourself.
And the thing that I appreciate about therapy. I have, I'm like you, Andy, I'm a big advocate for it. And I know that often the conversation in veterinary medicine around access to mental health services, it has, is a cost conversation. And I totally understand that. And there are resources that are accessible.
I've never been in a community where there aren't resources that are accessible at low or no cost for people who need them. And so I know that I know that there are places where there, I live in the middle of nowhere and let me tell you, finding someone who does sliding scale therapy services is hard because there's not a lot of choices, but.
I think the point is don't, put up a barrier here, like find out what the options are, whether it's your employer assistance program whether it is through your insurance checking with your own, you know, your own doctor or asking you know, locally what the services are like, check it out and find find an option.
And I think we kind of, I think sometimes I feel like we avoid having that conversation in Vet Med because it's all about the money and I don't think it is. But I appreciate that you put it at the forefront because to me, the biggest value in therapy is someone who sees me objectively.
And I, And, to your point about paying a professional, you know, you can talk to someone, you can talk to your spouse, you can talk to your partner, you can talk to your best friend. They may tell you you know, one of my, one of my best friends in the whole world is our our dear friend, Jen Galvin. Jen will absolutely tell me the tough things. Like, she will look at me straight up and say, You were being an asshole like she would have no problem looking at me and saying that if I told her something that made her think that she would tell me that and
Dr. Andy Roark: She's hurt my feelings. Yeah. I'll tell you that. In the kindest, most friendly way possible. She has 100 percent hurt my feelings.
Stephanie Goss: She will be honest and tell you the things and everybody should have friends like that in their life to be honest like I were better for it and She, at the end of the day, Jen still loves me. And so I don't know, like, there is always going to be a skewed perspective when you're talking to people that are a part of your life and love you and care about you, even if they can be honest with you, right?
They're, in it for your, your taking care of yourself. Like they care about you. So they want to help you fix the problem at the end of the day, no matter how honest they really are. And for me, having the object, the objectivity of a neutral third party to like just pour out all the word vomit and then sift through it with somebody is absolutely been the best gift because to your point, you're, looking at a professional who can ask and I think that's really important here because a lot of the questions, if I was this writer, a lot of the questions that have to be answered
It's a lot of like thinking and a lot of you know, talking about things that might be tied to other pieces of your life. And to your point when you are burnt out and when you are, especially when you're you know, experiencing ongoing depression, I mean, Jen would answer me even if I called her, but I know there's been times where she's like, I can't with you anymore, you know?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. I'm, yes. I'm with you. I mean, yes. And that goes to my point of, at some point, pay somebody for it.
Stephanie Goss: Right, right.
Dr. Andy Roark: So that's it. Okay. So, root cause analysis. Why are you feeling this way? And it can be self questions. Talk therapy is a great diagnostic tool, but that's how I look at it as a diagnostic tool.
What are we doing and then how do we move forward? Alright, other important points to stack in underneath that. This is just a big one for my vet people out there. If you're in this profession and you hear this, do not think that you are the helper, not someone who gets help. And that is a huge deal.
And I carried that burden too, of, I would tell you in my heart of heart, I believe that I am the person who helps other people. I'm not the one who takes help. I don't need help because I'm helping others because I'm a strong one. And I see that again and again in us. We have a lot of people who have made it through life by putting the boulder on the burden on their shoulders and carrying others.
And that's destructive behavior if you're wrestling with depression or you're trying to figure out, you know, how you sort of, how you avoid burnout or rekindle your enjoyment, silently giving to others without accepting help, for yourself. That is a real problem and I see it. You are not above taking help.
Like, that's not how this works. And so,
Stephanie Goss: just, it's destructive behavior, full stop. Like when you get on an airplane, the first thing that they tell you is to put on your mask first. And that applies across the board. It doesn't matter, you know, it doesn't matter whether you're a healer or caretaker or any of those things like it is destructive behavior to think that we don't have to take care of ourselves.
Dr. Andy Roark: You need to set aside your view of yourself as a veterinary professional and see yourself as a whole person. When we look at depression, burnout, things like that, I know a lot of people are like, Oh, vet medicine is so bad. The truth is, I don't know that it really is. I think we do have a uniquely challenging and stressful job.
But the truth is when you look at depression and what makes people depressed, what makes people burn out, it's multifactorial. It is not, I have a stressful job and so I'm burned out. It is generally, top of the list is, I have a chronic illness. I have relationship problems with my spouse or family members.
I have you know, some, I have one of my close family members has a chronic illness or has illness or things like that. It is eating habits. It is genetic history. It is a ton of things that can make you feel depressed. Your stressful job is one component. And so a lot of people get mad because they're like don't tell me that I don't take away my suffering award Andy I'm like, no, it's a hard job.
Don't get me wrong and this stuff is multifactorial and you need to set down the vet mantle and just look at yourself as a whole person and say how do I feel what am I trying to do here? Are these other things going on is basically i'm trying to say what if it's not? What if burnout doesn't come from your job?
What if it's coming from relationships with toxic people with family members with illness with financial strain? All those things can happen so anyway, look at yourself as a whole person because if you just focus on this one aspect You're really reducing your ability to make changes because you're only looking at one knob that you can turn.
Stephanie Goss: Sure. and I also think it's important to look at it from the flip side of that in that, being a veterinarian is what you do. It's not who you are. And, that is for so many of us in veterinary medicine, we tie up our identity and we can't separate those two. And for this veterinarian, it may be very well that it's not tied to any of those other things.
That they are happy in other ways. It may very well be tied to the job. Okay. Well, that's just the job that you do. Who says you can't change that job like that? You know what I mean? That's an easy action step. But I think for a lot of us, we get hung up on that. This is my identity. This is who I have to be.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I completely agree. And so, know that everything is going to vary a little bit with your situation and who you are as a person. And right, so, there's nothing where somebody goes, This works! And everyone goes, Yes! It also worked for us. But, if you're walking through these steps, the big thing for me is, about getting into the right headspace to go into the clinic.
And We have to address the underlying issues, but when we go into the clinic, one of my big things is get present and mindful, right? Try to set down the existential dread. Try to be, try to focus on what you're doing. Try not to carry around. The emotional clients with you. Try not to spend your time worrying about what's going to be like when they get there and try not to carry around the experience after they leave.
Just try to be present in the moment. And that could be mindfulness meditation. It can be breathing. It can be just focusing. You know what really helps me meditate is petting an animal. Like if I sit and I'll stroke a cat and I will think about that cat's fur and how it feels and I will look into their eyes and really just focus on being here.
And this is the creature that I'm here to help. I can focus on that and that's being very present and it helps me sort of shake off a lot of that stuff. And so just focus on being present and being mindful in the clinic. Remember your stress reduction exercises and techniques.
And this person said, I'm doing this stuff. I'm exercising, I'm eating well, just make sure you're getting your sleep, all of that kind of stuff. Remember your purpose before you go into the clinic. And this is something, we talked early on about what is your purpose, and I always say, you know, we have, usually have a purpose.
And so we go to vet school, and so we become a vet. And by the time we get to be a vet, we forgot the purpose that originally drove us here. But if you recognize, what do you care about? What are you trying to do? Why did you become a vet? I think it's good to stop and think about that before you walk into the building.
And just get that back into your mind, because it will remind you why you're here. I think a lot of us need a reminder. About why we're here.
Stephanie Goss: Well, and I think if you're thinking about that, you will find that opportunities to feel that present itself. Whereas if you don't think about it and you don't focus on it, our friend and colleague Maria Pirita calls it manifesting. But you know, it is really true when you focus on something, generally the opportunities present themselves because you're looking for them.
Dr. Andy Roark: Remember, remember the stories we tell ourselves matter. I think that's what kind of what you were saying. We choose what stories we tell ourselves, and I have seen people tell themselves the story that these pet owners are stupid, or they don't listen. And they tell themselves that story, and every time a client asks a question, the person goes, Oh, that's them.
So stupid. So not listening. And I'm like, man, you're telling yourself that story, and then every time they say anything, you're reinforcing that story. How are you not gonna be miserable? If you decide to tell yourself the story that people are doing their best, they are doing their best. And I am here to try to meet them where they are.
And when they have questions, you say they're doing their best, and I'm going to try to meet them where they are. You can tell yourself that story. At the end of the day, it does not change what you're doing with your time. It is not foolish or naive to assume good intent and to decide to be optimistic.
The story that we tell ourselves matter. Now, I'm not telling you just to be toxically positive, but I am saying you need to pay attention to the stories you tell yourself when you're in the clinic. And this is why toxicity in the workplace is so bad. It's because that's people start telling you stories, and then you start telling yourself stories.
And then everything looks like it fits into this narrative of, I work for a company that only cares about money, the pet owners are stupid, the people I work with are lazy, and everything I see, I'm going to plug it in, I'm going to use confirmation bias to support the story I'm telling myself. And now I'm hugely miserable, and I could choose to tell myself a different story and I'd be a heck of a lot happier.
And so, I think that checking the stories we're telling ourselves, and deciding what stories we're going to tell ourselves, I think that's really important.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah. I think to one of the things that helped me a lot to, to the points that you just made about focusing on what's on and focusing on what's in front of you and the stories we're telling is I think a really important tool is that so many of us, I know I, was this way when I was struggling with burnout and I was struggling with depression, I didn't talk to my team about it because we didn't have a culture where that was normalized at all, at first. And so I felt kind of embarrassed. Like I would find, I would have days where I was really angry or I was crying and I felt like I couldn't talk to the team about it. And so one of my, one of my stress reduction techniques was not dissimilar to your idea of petting the cat. I would go and sit out in the kennels.
And I would just pick a boarder's cage and just sit in their cage with them and just give them some love and talk to them and like, calm myself down. And one of our team members noticed me out there one day and said something to me about it. And I was like, you know, as a manager, like I don't get as much time to connect with the animals and, you know, really enjoy them.
And so it really makes me happy. Like when I can just spend some time connecting. And I was like, you know, of course I love. I love puppies and kittens the most but even just spending time with the pets makes me happy. And that team member took that and the next day they popped up in my office with and pulled a kitten out of their scrub pockets.
And they were like, I just brought you a kitten. I thought it would make you smile. And I, that it became a pattern and a trend just because I said this was something that makes me. That makes me happy. And over time, we had conversation and changed the culture and I started normalizing and talking to them about going to therapy and making time for myself.
And I will tell you like, I don't, it made a profound difference for me in focusing on what was in front of me by having other people be aware of that, that was something I wanted or needed. And so if there is something that reduces your stress or there is something that you– is your purpose, tell your team, because they can help make that happen more frequently, I think.
And I think that's a tool that, like, we don't, we think we just have to be on our own. That's the, our hurt brains talking to us. And I know for me it was like, oh, don't tell anybody. Like it's, you know, shameful that you're feeling this way. But I found a whole lot more support when I, you know, when I started talking about it.
Dr. Andy Roark: One of the things that really worked for me very well was a sort of good day journal, and the way it was shown to me that it is one of the things I still keep up is I got a little journal, and then I just wrote down, all I wrote down, it wasn't a journal entry, all I wrote down was three good things that happened today, and I did it before bed.
And that serves a couple of purposes. Number one, it gets you to reflect back on what was good today and kind of to hold that trophy, which is important. But number two is, if you keep it up over time, and first of all, it's only, you can add more than three if you want, but it's just a bullet pointed list of what was good today.
I put the date in that. And so it was easy to do, it didn't take a lot of time. And, very quickly, when you look back over just a week or two, you might be surprised at what constitutes a good day for you. And so, none of it was medical outcomes. Every, very rarely there would be some outcome, or some client compliment.
Mostly it was about spending time with my kid. It was about making my wife laugh until she had to leave. You know, like that, goes in my journal. Like I made, I was telling her that I was making jokes about this thing and she laughed so hard she had to leave the room. Like, you know, it’s stuff like that.
But it helps you come to understand What is good in your life and what really makes a good life. And so anyway, but just keep it up for a little while and then you'll quickly see the patterns that make a good day. And it just gives you something to aim for. I think it's good for resetting expectations and going, Oh, the vet clinic almost never makes the list.
That's okay because these other things make the list. And so I think that's really important. The last thing is just And I'll leave it here, but my number one piece of career advice to people is figure out what you enjoy doing and figure out how to do more of it, and then figure out what you don't enjoy doing and figure out how to do less of it.
And that doesn't have to be career advice. That's largely life advice. You know, if you like hiking and camping with your family, figure out how to do more hiking and camping with your family. And if you really don't like I don't know, going to social gatherings, like, figure out, you know, figure out how you can do less of that.
Maybe that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean stomp your foot and cross your arms and tell your spouse you're not going to do this thing, it's important to them. But it's saying, alright, I'm going to do these specific things that are very important to you, but other than that, I'm going to make some changes and reduce this sort of social stress.
Anyway, that's what I got.
Stephanie Goss: I love that so much. And I think the, I think for me, I would take that and add to it because I, that's such a powerful tool. And it seems so simple and, you know, it's like, just do more of the thing. And I think the important part is to remember, like, it's a journey. You just, you're going to make one step at a time.
Because I know for me, like thinking about where I was, especially if you're not in a good place, or you are deeply unhappy. Thinking about where you are and where you want to get to can be overwhelming. And so, you know, just thinking about what can I do today that's going to give me, you know, a little bit more.
Happiness or a little bit more of doing the thing, you know?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yup, mm-hmm.
Stephanie Goss: It's, you know, it often when we think, oh, it's so simple, we should just be doing that. And then I know for me it was like, well, why can't I just do that? And it perpetuated the negative self-talk cycle for myself. And so I think one of the things that's really important is to remember like.
This didn't happen overnight, probably for most of us, it's a slide to where we are. And so to think about like, it just take one step at a time,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yep.
Stephanie Goss: One, one thing, you know, can you find one, like, to your point, can you add one thing? Maybe yesterday you didn't write anything in your journal about what was good today.
Can you come up with one thing, you know, just do one thing at a time?
Dr. Andy Roark: Definitely. Well, thanks everybody. Thanks for tuning in.
Stephanie Goss: Have a great week, everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark: Take care.Stephanie Goss: And that's a wrap on another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Thanks for joining us and spending your week with us. If you enjoyed this week's episode, head over to wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. It's the best way to let us know that you love listening. We'll see you next time.
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