Dr. Andy Roark and practice management super geek, Stephanie Goss are back with another letter from our mailbag. This time a manager writes in who is struggling with communication in her practice. This manager's newish to practice ownership DVM struggles to communicate with the team as a whole. The manager is fielding complaints from the team about the holes in communication. And to make it more challenging, the practice owner's wife is also heavily involved in the practice, despite her lack of veterinary background. This manager is struggling with knowing how to address the team's concerns when they share some of them as well as struggling to find their own place in the triangle between the practice owner, their partner and the manager. This one is a doozy, let's get into this….
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss: Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Andy and I are back this week with another letter from the mailbag. We received an email from a practice manager. Who is struggling because their lead DVM seems to have some serious communication issues. And it's starting to impact the entire team from this manager's perspective. They're struggling with getting everybody to be able to communicate with each other.
It seems like there is a loss of trust. The team is really frustrated and this manager is wondering, how do I approach this when the person who is causing all of this challenge in turmoil is the person who's in charge of the practice?
This was a great question, Andy and I had a lot of fun. We might've gone a little bit off the rails as we do, but we brought it back together quite nicely.
I think let's get into this, shall we?
Dr. Andy Roark: And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only Stephanie-1-2-3-Goss. That's right. Getting down with three P. Everybody loves three. I just yeah, I haven't heard any late career Britney Spears in a while, and that's where I'm like, you know what?
Stephanie Goss: Let's just, get into some Britney. I can be supportive of that. I'm a Britney, I'm a Britney fan. I'm a Britney fan.
Dr. Andy Roark: I, one of my great regrets is that Eric Garcia was in Las Vegas when I was also in Las Vegas, and he went to Britney and I didn't go.
Stephanie Goss: Of course he did.
Dr. Andy Roark: and I regret, like there's not many things I regret in my life.
Stephanie Goss: That's a life regret.
Dr. Andy Roark: Missing Britney Spears in Las Vegas with Eric Garcia is one of those things.
Stephanie Goss: Fair. I would also regret that. That was a bad life choice on your part.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, he came back and he was like, there's an enormous tree, and she like swung out of the branches, and I was like, shut up. Oh, man.
Stephanie Goss: That would be a life regret. I can understand. You made a bad life choice.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. I feel like I'm regretting life choices all over the place right now. I'm Stephanie, I'm busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. I'm telling you. It's a lot right now. It's a lot going on.
Stephanie Goss: It is. It is. I feel that. I, posted on my– I posted on my Instagram this morning because I was in my kitchen this morning and we do have a lot going on and I am very stressed. Like on, I like, for those people who don't actually know me, I actually work really well under pressure and my ADHD,
Dr. Andy Roark: That's– welcome aboard! Like,
Stephanie Goss: I'll go
Dr. Andy Roark: It's like, what? Why does Stephanie Goss thrive at Uncharted? Well, let me tell you about how Stephanie Goss works.
Stephanie Goss: Because she works well under pressure. I, my ADHD is like, oh yeah, it's fine. Let's just like do other things and be distracted by shiny objects. And then at the last minute, turn out 40 hours of work in a four hour period. Like, that's me. And also there's a very fine line between. And like complete, utter panic and overwhelm.
And I'm, I was like, I posted a story this morning as I was walking that fine line while I'm stress eating a brownie for breakfast. Just like, okay…
Dr. Andy Roark: I said, well,
Stephanie Goss: I'm dangerously close to the line.
Dr. Andy Roark: You knew you were in trouble, so you're stress eating the brownie for breakfast, and then I started messaging you at like 6 a. m. your time, and that, because you get up early, let me just stop and say, that's not unusual, like, you, you work East Coast hours, and we've decided that, so this is not boss waking, but, so, but I message you, And you wouldn't have, you wouldn't have got it if your phone was silenced or whatever, but it was like, “Call, me when you're up and moving.”
And so you see that while you're on the phone. And then I start calling the person you're on the phone with, to talk to them. And Tyler was like, I just, I hung up with Stephanie. She said, you messaged her, and now you're calling me. And she's like, and what is that grinding sound? And I'm like, that's the espresso machine, Tyler.
Let's go! And so it's that kind of energy,
Stephanie Goss: It’s that kind of, it's that kind of, well, we might need that kind of energy to deal with this mailbag question.
Dr. Andy Roark: This catastrophic mailbag. This is redonkulous.
Stephanie Goss: it is a whole, it's a hot special. It's a hot special. That's all I'm going to say.
Dr. Andy Roark: I like this. I'm excited about this. I'm excited about it because it's not me. I don't have to do it. But I'm very, it's like, I'll give you a plan that I don't have to carry out. I'm all about it. And so, I got a plan here. It's got multiple steps, it's got phases, it's got two different battlefronts that we're gonna fight, and like, it's, it is a robust plan.
Stephanie Goss: Andy went to town.
Andy Roark: That, very well might not work. Like, it's like, there's a significant chance that we're just gonna burn the whole area and leave. That's how this might end up. We'll see. I'll tell you, I'll give you my best shot and we'll talk about when we cut bait. And, what does, getting out of this look.
Stephanie Goss: That's fair, because I, my first thought when I looked at this was that the answer is no.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's just like, no, there's a shot. There's a shot. But you have to set some clear boundaries. You have to set a timeline about how much you're gonna put up with. And then, what your checkpoints are going to be along the way and so anyway, I think this is a really good conversation if anybody is dealing with a situation that has multiple like there's multiple fires burning here i'm gonna lay down for you my best advice on how to fight a multi-front war and also like how to decide when you're like, this is not it's not worth it anymore. But it's not an emotional decision of “I've had enough today. I'm out.”
It's like no, let's get smarter than that let's get more strategic than that and let's make a plan but also let's have a way of measuring success in our plan and making decisions about when we're gonna pull the pin on this plan and just blow it up and bail.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah. Okay. So let's set it up for everybody. Cause they're like, gosh, what are you guys going to talk about? So we got we got a mailbag email from a practice manager who is struggling in their practice because they have a lead DVM who has some communication challenges and most of it from, their perspective, most of it seems to stem from a lack of communication and so just not talking to the team enough but it causes a lot of challenges with the team, and so this practice manager is like, look, I'm constantly having to field complaints about the communication, about the lack of communication, and And bridge things between the team they said, you know, this is this is a doctor who is newer to owning a practice and they're awkwardly trying to figure it out as they go.
And that's, you know, understandable. You're doing something for the first time, there's going to be some challenges. And this manager is like, it doesn't seem to be getting, like, they don't seem to be learning from their challenges. And, so it's compounded this practice manager's like, you know, look, I'm all in.
I'm willing to help. I'm trying to bridge the gap between the team and do some teaching correction to like help you grow as a leader. And it's compounded by the fact that this uh, doctor who's the practice owner, their partner is also playing a big role in the practice. They are not on the medicine side, but they are playing a big role in the running of the practice.
And we don't have enough details to know, but having been a manager who's worked in plenty of hospitals where it is a partnership, husband and wife, and wife, husband and husband, whatever kind of partnership where you are cohabitating and also running your business together. Like, I have been in that management position at almost every practice that I've been at, so I have strong thoughts about that. But this manager is like, look, this is the situation because they're involved in the practice and it's really frustrating and causing challenges because there's three people trying to give directions and we're all giving directions differently.
And the manager's like, look, I'm at the point where I have team members, including doctors, who are Wanting to leave or threatening to leave and they said, I myself have thought about leaving because I feel like I don't get to do my job and I feel like I, I don't have a say because their partner is also so heavily involved in the practice.
And so they were like, I'm super frustrated. And what I love about it is that it wasn't– it didn't end there. And they were like, yes, I am super frustrated. And I'm reaching out to you guys because I'm wondering, like, can I? How can I approach conversations because the practice has a lot of potential. I believe in it.
I believe in my team and I feel like we've made a lot of strides since I have been working on things. And I also feel like there's more potential to, there's potential to do more and they feel like there's some significant roadblocks here and they're just wondering like how to even, where to even start.
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah. Alright, so there's a lot here. There's a lot here. This, again, I don't know what the answer is. We're gonna wade into this a little bit. It really depends on how people respond when we start pushing some buttons. And so, alright, so let's talk–Let's just talk headspace.
And so I'm going to go ahead and get the negative part out of the way before I get optimistic. And so, the negative part is, at the end of this, the question at the end, there's a couple of red flags that I have recognized a number of times, right? And so, the thing is, the practice has so much potential.
Right as they said that the practice has so much potential and to me, that's always a red flag because she this person I'm gonna say she's probably right that it has potential and that doesn't mean anything. The number of people I have worked with or employees that I have had I tell you what it's ripped my heart out is employees that have so much potential if they would just blank.
Stephanie Goss: Right.
Dr. Andy Roark: and they won't and they won't or they don't and I cannot I can't want it more than them I can't make anything for them But it guts me to see so much potential in a person and they would I'm confident they would just take off like a rocket if they would just blank and I tell them hey, this is what we need to work on and they're like, yeah, I'm not doing it I'm not gonna do that and like, and I can't make decisions about my life and my career and my business based on what I wish someone else would do. I can only make decisions on what they're actually doing and so again, I see that and i'm like it has so much potential i'm like, oh Grit your teeth my friend because the potential it has, it's something worth weighing, but do not make choices based on what someone else should do or what we wish they would do.
So that's the first part. The other part is, they say, you know, the practice has grown. I have grown the practice quite a bit since I've been there. And I go, ooh, that sounds like a sunk cost fallacy to me. That sounds like I have put so much into this, I am really reluctant to let it go. to let it go. And the truth is, would you take this job if it was offered to you today?
And if the answer is no, then you should think about that. That doesn't mean you're going to pick up and leave because we all go through hard parts. But, I think we have a natural tendency, I have poured so much into here, I can't leave. And I would say, boy, what you did in the past, that's over, that's gone.
Life moves on. You did that, and you put a lot in there. And, we're not thinking about the past. We're deciding about how we go forward. And so, beware sunk cost fallacy of, I've given so much, I can't bail on my investment now. And so, both of those two sort of flags I see at the end. Any other mental flags that you see like that, other than the obvious problems?
Stephanie Goss: Yeah, I will. It's funny. So, first of all, I want to say like, I see this person and I feel them and I you know, quite candidly, I– in different, completely different circumstances, I was this person and the pep talk that you just gave about looking at both of those things. Like I– when I was in that position.
I looked at it the same way. Like I remember vividly having a conversation with you that was like, I've poured my heart and soul into this place and it has so much potential. Like we've come so far and it could go so much further. and at the same time, like when I stepped back and it was, that fear of like, I have given up so much and recognizing what I had given up and how much I had, you know, sacrifice and how much the team has sacrificed and not wanting to let go of that. And it wasn't looking at, I was not looking at it from the perspective of what I take this job today. And when I asked myself that question, my answer was very different.
Dr. Andy Roark: It's absolutely freaking not.
Stephanie Goss: Not quite that fast, but it definitely was, it
Dr. Andy Roark: Would I? No. The answer is no.
Stephanie Goss: Which is so funny because I read this, that was the other piece. I read this and my initial thought was. no, this is a hot mess. There is no solving this. And then when I stepped back for a second, I really thought about it. And I was like, okay, this is a really tricky situation.
And it might not be a no win situation. There is always a choice. And even if the choice is leaving, that doesn't mean the choice equates to losing. And so I think thinking about it from a healthy headspace that there is, there are always options is really important. And just like, you know, as you say, like fluff your pillows, I think you're, spot on with the first two and I will tell you all like it worked on it, you know, that Andy's little pep talk worked on me.
Um, So, right.
Dr. Andy Roark: Well, thank you for saying that. I think you put your finger right on number three, which I had not thought of, but you're spot on. I do not think, from a headspace standpoint, I do not think that you can look at leaving as failure. And if you're like, for me to leave is for me to fail, and that is a fundamental flaw in thinking, I'm really glad you said that out loud, because I, in order to do this, we're about to get optimistic.
I'm gonna be optimistic about it. And, in order for that to happen, I need you, writer, to decide that leaving is not failure. It's just the, it's, where we have to go from here. It's playing the hand that we're dealt. It does not mean we failed because you didn't have the power to control the situation.
You don't have the power to control the situation. So, if the situation does not work, and you had no power, you didn't fail. You went along for the ride. And that's it. And so, I hope that we can exert some influence. And help try to get this thing back on the track, or at least get it to a place where you're comfortable going forward.
But if we can't get it back on the track, that's not failure, that's inability to reach a healthy place with two other people. Which is, again, they've got two thirds of this drama, and you've got one third. And, so anyway, I just think that's really important. I think it's also funny, just jumping back for a second. It's interesting to me, so the sunk cost parts kind of works with you a bit.
I, I'm the other way. It's the, I'm such an optimist. I look at what could be and, yeah, and where we could go and what we could achieve, and just the idea of seeing that potential. And then going, but it's not going to happen, so I'm walking. That's really hard for me. I'm much less bound by sunk costs and much more about missed opportunity.
And I'm like, the opportunity is so big, but it's not going to, it's not going to happen. And so anyway, that's kind of that.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah, that's funny. So okay, so I have a headspace piece. It's funny because like when we were sitting down and like thinking about it from Headspace I was like, well for me part of the headspace is our safe acronym But I actually I have it. I have a new acronym For our podcast listeners that I was like, oh this one feels really perfect for this situation because I do think that I, do think that this is not a no win situation, and I do see a possibility here where there is some addressing the concerns and there is conversation in the action step piece, and I think the SAFE acronym is, super important, but there's an acronym that I actually learned and I, my midwife taught it to me and it was the, acronym. About prenatal care that is called BRAIN, and I really love it because it is about making informed choices, and I think it just applies for all human behavior, and so the B stands for benefits, and asking yourself, like, what are the benefits of making this decision that I'm thinking about making, whatever it is. And so when I'm looking at a hard situation, I ask myself, okay, what could be potential benefits of the decision that I'm looking at making? Whether it's leaving, staying, whatever. What are the benefits? Then the second one is R, which is risk.
What are the risks involved if I go one way or the other here? And then A is alternative. So are there any other alternatives? And part of this for me is forcing my brain to think about beyond the immediate. There is a winning scenario and there is a losing scenario because that's just part of how my brain works.
I go like, black and white, here's one or the other, and so asking myself, like, what are the benefits, what are the risks, but then also, are there other alternatives, forces me to slow down and kind of think about that, and then I stands for intuition. And so it's the idea of what is my gut telling me?
Like, how do I really actually feel about this? And then N is for nothing. What happens if I do nothing? Or if I just wait it out? And for anybody who has been in labor, it is so painful for them to just say, just keep waiting. You're like, oh my God, get this thing out of me. But sometimes doing nothing is the best thing for everybody.
And I think that goes for us as humans. And so thinking about it from that perspective and forcing myself to do the headspace work asking myself, what do I, like, what are the benefits here? What are the risks? What are the alternatives? Where could this go is really healthy, has been really healthy mental work for me in terms of thinking about big challenges like this, because, you know, we've talked about it on the podcast before and young manager, Stephanie was quite a bit of a hothead.
And would just go guns blazing at whatever I thought was, that my gut says do this thing and I would just do that thing. And I learned some very painful lessons about taking some steps back, taking a deep breath, and thinking it through a little bit more before I act.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think the idea that there are strong parallels between managing a vet hospital and being in labor are hilarious. Like, I just, I'm like, ooooh, just gotta breathe, ooooh,
Stephanie Goss: true!
Dr. Andy Roark: Just, it's all gonna be worth it. Keep telling yourself it's all gonna be worth it. it's all gonna be worth it. If he doesn't get in here and help, I'm gonna lose my stuff. Like, it's like, it's just, they're basically the same activity in a lot of ways.
Stephanie Goss: I am laughing so hard right now because I'm just imagining so many of our listeners who might be shouting out loud in their cars right now, Stephanie is so right! Andy, shut up! Because it's true!
Dr. Andy Roark: I’m going to be honest here, I don’t have a lot of experience in this domain. Us non-baby makers are just like okay, I’m here for the ride. But no, I like it. I like it. I don't think—I like your acronym. I very much like your acronym. I don't think it, I don't feel it the way you do, I think. But like, I am, I'm confident
Stephanie Goss: You'll go along for the ride with me.
Dr. Andy Roark: I am, no, but I am like, okay. I don't see me doing this in a lecture, just so you know. Like it's, I think it's more of a Stephanie Goss lecture than an Andy Roark lecture. So you don't have to worry about me stealing this one.
Stephanie Goss: He's like this, one time when I was labor.
Dr. Andy Roark: Let's talk about labor. I saw this in the notes, like BRAIN/Labor and I was like, I don't know where this is going. But, I'm confident this is going to be focused and on topic. Alright, we might need to take a break here. Let's take a break here, and then we'll come back.
Stephanie Goss: Hey friends, I just wanted to talk for a quick second about the math with you all, because I've been thinking a lot about the workshops and normally here's where we tell you what's coming up and we've got some great stuff happening. So you're going to want to head to https://unchartedvet.com/events and check out the upcoming calendar.
But I want to talk about maths because if you are not already an Uncharted member, you can attend any one of our workshops and pay $99 a piece. Most of them are just $99. You can do it as a one off, great and fine. However, that adds up really quick and if you do the monthly workshop with us, and I've seen some of you there as repeat customers, which is amazing, but you could spend almost 1, over the course of the year doing workshops with us, or you can pay $699 and get a 12 month membership, which means you get all of the workshops that we do at no extra charge. You also get access to our amazing conversation in the community, our community members, and all of our community resources. And it is hopping over there. We've got conversation 24/7. We have got activities.
We've got book club. We are talking about, uh, development and, uh, leadership growth, doing our development pathway this year. We are doing hallway conversations where we're talking about topics. These are, uh, sessions that are community led, community driven.
It is topics about things that are going on in your practice that you want to talk about with your peers. All of that is happening and it's all included for your $699 membership. So simple math. Do you pay almost $1200 for the year? Or do you pay $699? If you're not currently a member, you should head over to the website and use this argument to convince your boss, Hey boss, I need to be a part of this amazing community because Stephanie told me so.
And because she's telling you that you will save money. Hopefully that works. Uh, but you know, I couldn't, I couldn't resist. I hope to see you at our upcoming workshops again and try to vet. com forward slash events for everything that's coming. And now back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay, alright
Stephanie Goss: Breaks over.
Dr. Andy Roark: Break's over, and we have never had to take a break halfway through Headspace before, but
Stephanie Goss: There's a first time for everything with me, Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark: I know– I've only got, I think, all this is, I like everything we said for Headspace I think, the last thing I would say here is, sometimes, Often, I would say, I'm gonna say often, I'm gonna ratchet it up, often.
Stephanie Goss: Ooh, often.
Dr. Andy Roark: When you have a problem that looks insurmountable, it's actually a couple of problems. And if you can break it apart into its component problems, it feels much different. And it's actually much more approachable. If you've just got a six headed problem, you're like, oh, this is amazing. But if I can break it apart into six problems, some of these problems I can address today and some of them I can accept and say, well, that's just gonna be around
Stephanie Goss: That’s a problem.
Dr. Andy Roark: That's a tomorrow problem. That's a 2026 problem. Like, like you can do that, but it doesn't feel so like existential. It feels real and actionable. And so I think it's important here in Headspace. Go ahead and separate this into two problems. So number one, we've got a communication problem with a new practice owner that is not giving the team the communication they need and that is.
That is a real problem. We can coach to that problem. We can work to that problem. And then the other problem is the spousal involvement. And I would try to de-emotionalize this. I don't think that's a term, but you get the idea. Basically, this is a job description accountability problem. And so we've got a job description accountability problem, which is what is, I'm unclear as to what everyone's job is now that your spouse is here playing a role and that, that, that's it.
But neither of those problems sound absolutely catastrophic to me. They're, you know, it's a clarity job description. Accountability problem, and it's a, and it's a coaching communication problem. And again, you can't make people do anything they don't want to do, and if you play all your cards and at the end you still don't know what your job description is, and what you're supposed to be doing, and you have a practice owner that the team is trying to mind read because he won't talk or communicate,
You've played all your cards, and now you need to decide what you're going to do.
But for right now, at least, you haven't played all your cards, and so you've got cards left to play. The only choice you have to make are, am I gonna play these cards, or am I so unhappy that I don't care how the game goes, and I'm gonna walk? And based on the fact that we heard this about how much we've invested, and the potential that's here, I think, it seems to me like they have decided to play the cards.
Stephanie Goss: They wanna try and play.
Dr. Andy Roark: And so we have decided to play the cards.
Exactly. And so we've decided to play the cards, so let's just get into a good headspace. Let's get optimistic. Let's manifest positivity into the future. And then let's start laying these things down in action steps. Sound good?
Stephanie Goss: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: So, first one for me, split this into two problems, right?
Stephanie Goss: I love that.
Dr. Andy Roark: So, split it into two problems, and I would probably have two different, I like to notebook my problems, I like to write things out. Try to separate and make the two problems crystal, so that you can just work on that problem. So when you're talking about what is the role for the spouse, Don't start talking about the communication issue. Now, they are related because one of the reasons you don't have clarity on your job and what the heck you're supposed to be doing is probably because the owner isn't communicating.
But let's get empathetic here, right? So we said we're gonna have a safe conversation. So safe is, can I sit next to this person, smile at them. Right? Am I triggered? A is can I assume good intent? And F is has this person been set up to fail? What here is my fault? And the last thing is E, what is the end result I want to achieve?
And so, so assuming good intent and assuming this person was set up to fail, let's give the wife a break here and say maybe she's all up in the business. Because he's not communicating what's going on. He's got the family savings tied up in this thing. She's not— she's looking at the family checking account and going, What the heck is going on?
And she's not getting answers from him. He's not clear about what the plan is. You know, I think that we can empathize with this person coming in from the outside. It's really easy to cast her as the villain. Like the immediate Here's the wife who's stickin her head in. I'm like, wait a second. What if the wife is desperate trying to keep this ship afloat?
And again, I don't know. But it's just healthier and better for us to assume that's a possibility. And to go forward assuming good intent and maybe a little bit of desperation on the part of others and saying, let's, come together because if the wife is feeling desperation and then you start fighting her for the steering wheel, it's probably going to escalate further.
It's going to get worse. And so just, that probably should have gone into headspace, but that's kind of where I am about splitting into two problems. When we split them into two problems, first thing split into two problems. When we split it into two problems. I want to talk about framing communication, okay?
And so from an action standpoint, the way we talk about problems is key. And the way that we discuss things can get people to lean forward or to lean back and cross their arms. If we go to the practice owner and the wife and say, Practice owner is not communicating. Nobody knows what he's thinking. He is a poor communicator.
Stephanie Goss: That immediately makes you defensive.
Dr. Andy Roark: Absolutely. You're going to get a defensive reaction. It's not going to go well. And so, I would frame this not in terms of the practice owner being a bad communicator. I would frame it in terms of the needs of the team and the perception that they don't know what's going on. And maybe you're letting them know, but they're not getting that messaging the way it's currently being delivered.
And you see the difference in that of like, message is not being delivered in a way that's working for them or get, or making them feel comfortable and you can kind of put it on the team is, I don't know, I don't know what to tell you, but they're, not getting it. We got to do something different and that puts me in a collaborator role of what does, what do we want information dissemination to look like here?
If you don't want to disseminate to them, can you and I have one on ones and you can let me know what the plan is, and then I can disseminate that information. I can do it in staff meetings, I can do it in morning rounds, I can do it in company emails, I can do it in our Slack channels, like, however you want to do it, but let's figure it out.
But part of, I think, having the team work well together feel comfortable, feel safe, have a good culture is, they feel like they need more information, they want to know more clearly what's expected of them, and they're, for whatever reason, they're not getting it under the current communication. And so, let's, how can I help with that?
The other thing I would empathize is if you're a brand new business owner, and this is a lesson I learned. I lean towards overcommunication just because I like to hear myself talk. But, it was still hard for me.
Stephanie Goss: Really? You, Andy Roark? You like to hear your, you like to hear yourself talk?
Dr. Andy Roark: Well, since we're getting vulnerable, yes I do. And,
Stephanie Goss: He talks to, he, you talk to Skipper.
Does he talk back, Does he talk back, yet in Spanish is what I want to know.
Dr. Andy Roark: Not yet, not yet. I talked to Skipper in Spanish. That's a whole other story. Let's not go, let's not go there. We've been– we did your labor a bit. Let's just put a pin in Skipper learning Spanish for right now. Okay, so, Where was I? All right, stop it, Goss all right um—
Stephanie Goss: This is my fault?
Dr. Andy Roark: It is. Okay.
Stephanie Goss: We were talking about communication and the perception problem.
Dr. Andy Roark: The perception problem. Yeah, so, I when I was a young business owner, I, again, I really struggled with slowing down to go fast and the more pressure I felt, the less I wanted to communicate about why we were doing what we were doing, how we're going to do it, let's have a talk, let's all come to consensus, what are you guys already doing and how do we build on that?
Because I'm like, let's go. And I had to blow my face off. A number of times. I still blow my face off that way, but That was not at all what, that was not at all what happened when I messaged you and then called Tyler and then told Tyler to wait for my espresso machine to finish.
It was not at all me going ridiculously fast and not slowing down and communicating.
Stephanie Goss: I didn't say, I didn't say a word.
Dr. Andy Roark: Good. All right. Let's move on. Anyway, it's hard as a business owner, especially a brand new business owner, you have, I think you have to get burned a couple of times before you go, Okay, we're going to have this conversation.
We're gonna lay these things out. We're all gonna talk about this. It takes some people a lot of convincing before they realize that this is the significantly faster path. Then just let's go and you guys watch me and you'll figure out what's going on.
Stephanie Goss: Well, and I think, you know, you, mentioned earlier framing the, you know, the communication and looking at, can we have empathy for the wife versus painting her as the villain? And I think it's really important. You know, I am a huge– I have gotten on my soapbox on more than one occasion and talked about the fact that for so many of us who are managers. We learned by screwing it up and we learned by doing because they're not they're not a lot of us who go through our schooling and then go into the opportunity to become a manager and learn after the fact. We usually do it backward. And I think it is important to give empathy to practice owners as well, because the fact is, especially if you have a veterinarian practice owner, they didn't go to school to become a business person, like they didn't get their MBA first, most of them, they went to vet school. And so I think for me, the exercise and empathy is equally important from a communication perspective. And I think this is a really good opportunity. from a manager perspective to lean into skills that you should possess as a manager and help teach someone else some communication and people skills.
And it might go, that might apply to the wife too, or the partner too. We don't have enough information to know, but like if they're not a business person, part of it is like, you don't know what you don't know. And to your point, when you are a young business owner and you're doing it for the first time, You're just trying to, like, not have it completely fall apart, really.
Like, I can't, so many nights I've sat there and thought, the wheels didn't fall off today, and that feels like success. And I, it, like, the, you're setting the bar low a lot of the time because you don't know what you don't know. And so I think from an empathy perspective in terms of action steps, like, this could be a great opportunity, not only to ask yourself, like, what else could be happening here?
But how could you apply your skills as a manager to solve this problem and do some coaching and some teaching in a way that that opens the door to someone that in a way that doesn't feel like you have a communication problem or you're not good at communicating, but is more like, Hey, like I want to get better.
Would you be willing to work on this with me? You know?
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, sure. Well, I would take that one step further, and just, I don't know if this is possible to set up, but I will tell you, if you really want to make a massive impact really fast, if you could get the practice owner and the wife and you to all take the Uncharted Leadership Essentials Certificate together, that Whether that's on demand or when we do it in person in Atlanta or in Minneapolis in June or in California
Stephanie Goss: In Anaheim in
Dr. Andy Roark: in Anaheim in November.
Yeah, so we're out on the road. We're doing it live so you can see it live. But anyway, and I'm not joking when I say this, first of all, the leadership positional certificate has got everything about. Building trust with the team. It's got getting team buy-in. It's got communication styles, which is a big deal.
It has got…
Stephanie Goss: Feedback and coaching
Dr. Andy Roark: It's got— the big thing is strategic, planning basics. So, vision and the core values
Stephanie Goss: How to come together as a team.
Dr. Andy Roark: and how to come together. And then, when you get it online, it's got discussion questions in it. It has, like, these are the questions that we would have groups talk about.
And so the three of you can do it, decide that you're going to do the first module, and then talk about it. And then actually just say, what's this look like in our practice? and I say that in all sincerity and honesty, because one, Especially if you've got a brand new practice owner and the wife is jumping in and she's probably, you know, learning a lot as she goes too. It's great, freaking great coaching for anybody who's leading or managing.
But number two, the conversations that are going to come up are going to be wildly valuable and you don't have to bring the stuff up. That's the thing. it's not you going and saying. I'd like to talk to you guys about trust building, and do you think we're building trust with our team? It's, hey, we all watch this thing, and this is what Andy was talking about,
Stephanie Goss: Andy said we have to do our homework.
Dr. Andy Roark: Look, and exactly, and, here's the homework, and I just wanted to kind of have lunch with you guys and talk about where we were, and let's do that.
And so anyway, I don't know if that's possible. I don't mean to oversell it. I'm not really, genuinely not trying to oversell it. I truly believe if you could get them to do it, it is a, non confrontational way to bring up the basics and essence of running a practice. It's like, I love it for medical directors and practice managers that are kind of struggling to see eye to eye.
Anyway, it just works really well for that. So anyway, Uncharted Leadership Essentials Certificate. Jumping back real quick. The way that we frame the question matters. So, for the non communicative, Doctor, I frame this as the team's perception is that they're not getting the information they need to be effective.
Stephanie Goss: hmm. Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark: And for the wife stepping on toes wrestling for the steering wheel problem, I would frame that as a project management job description. It's not, hey, who the heck are you to come in and, you know, change the plan, take my job. It's, I don't want to step on your toes. I don't want you to step on my toes. I don't want redundancy in our work. I don't want to reinvent the wheel if you're doing something blank. Or if I'm doing something and you're not going to be happy with how I'm doing it, I'd rather know that before I do it.
That's how I'd frame that. And so I think you can frame both of those in healthy and productive ways. And so anyway, what I'd like to do. Now, if you're up for it, yes, we're sort of heading into the end of the podcast here. I split it into two problems. I want to action step each of the two problems.
You okay with that?
Stephanie Goss: Yeah, let's talk about the doctor first.
Dr. Andy Roark: All right, cool. If I was going to go and talk to this doctor, we set the headspace and said, you know, get safe, right? we shouldn't be triggered here. I don't know if I'm going to have this conversation with him or with him and his wife.
It really depends on how intertwined she is. I, my worry about having the wife. there is that he's going to get defensive and feel ganged up on the upside would be if he wasn't defensive and I could frame it as a conversation about how leadership communicates to the team, I might be able to get us all to kind of work collaboratively together and maybe recruit the wife to help me get the communication flowing that I need.
But I don't really know. You'd have to kind of feel that relationship. What do you think about that? Thank you, Stephanie. Am I ridiculous to even think about this, or do you see the potential that I'm talking about?
Stephanie Goss: Yeah, I totally can see it. I think a lot of it has to do with dissecting what the actual problem is. And so from our writer's perspective, we don't know. We just know that the doctor is struggling with communication from the team. And so that could be anything from they're getting angry when they come out of the exam room and what they want done, isn't ready because they literally haven't talk to the team about it, or like, they're not mind readers. It could mean that they're telling what, like, tell– This is why I was laughing when you were talking about being the business owner. I remember a time where as a new business owner, like you just wanted to do all the things and solve all the problems and where you would start something and you would have a conversation with one person and then you're working on another piece with another person and then you are all playing the telephone game because everybody has little pieces of the conversation, right?
Like there could be a million different examples. We're humans, and communication is so much of our day, and how many times do we all screw it up in some way during the course of the day, right? So part of it, I think, is dissecting that apart, and I would agree with you that there could be potential to have this conversation from a leadership “Let's get united and let's come at it together” perspective, and I think probably the smarter play I would suspect is that there's probably enough, if they really are struggling communicating with everybody, there's probably enough to talk to them one on one about the communication side of things.
And I think it's important to have specific examples for the team from the perception perspective to kind of ease into that, because that is an easy win in the sense of, hey, this is what we I want to be able to help the team help you more, and if they are feeling like they don't get clear communication about what your expectations are, they can't work more efficiently and effectively.
And that's a problem that I would love to help you tackle. Would you be willing to talk about how we communicate expectations, how we communicate in the exam room, and kind of look at some of that with me? That feels radically different than. We've got even, more different than your approach, which I still love, but like we, we've got a perception problem, right?
And we can fix this because that feels very uniting and like, let's come together. But I think framing it for me, it has always been the path of least resistance. It's like, Hey, there's a problem in your life, even if you don't know it's a problem. And I would like to help you solve it.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, no, I agree with that. Okay, so, walk with me. Communication issues, I'm totally with you. So, step one is ask for help, in my mind, which is what you just said is, help me, how do we handle this, right? State the problem. The problem not being “You're a terrible communicator.” The problem being, “the team doesn't feel informed. They're unsure of what the expectations are, and as a result, things are not getting done. Like, blank, and blank.” And so, give clear examples is number three. Ask for help, state the problem, give clear examples. And then, ask for solutions. how do we, how are we going to do this, right? Because this is supposed to be, I want it to be a discussion, not a speech.
Stephanie Goss: Sure. You're recruiting them to be a part of the solution.
Dr. Andy Roark: Exactly, and so. What, I mean, I'm trying to figure out, what, how can we get this information to them in a way that works for you? As opposed to, how about this? I'll meet with you twice a week, and we'll do one hour meetings, and blah blah blah blah, like, I don't know if he's gonna go for that or not. He'll like it a lot more if it's his idea, I promise you that.
And so what are our options? How can we approach this? Try to ask for solutions from them and then present your own solutions as appropriate, meaning, this is where you put your thumb on the scale. If he presents an idea, a solution that you've already thought of that you like, don't say, I also had that thought, say, that's a great thought.
I really love that idea, you know, and lean into it. And then ask for a pilot program, because these things are scary. And you're asking him to commit to communicating differently and just say, Can we do this from now until June 1st or the 4th of July? And just pick a time, and name it, and ask for that pilot program.
And it's a whole lot, if he hates it, then we're, then we'll stop doing it. But I think that the practice will work better, and you'll be happier, and the team will be happier if we do this. And so I'd really like to, if you'll commit, just three months. Let's try it for three months and really lean into it.
Can we do that? And then results will speak for themselves, or they won't. But that's kind of how I would approach the communication problem.
Stephanie Goss: The other thing that I would add to that is when you do, if you can, so to your point, asking them for help and, giving them the problem, giving them examples and then asking them to be a part of the solution and recruiting them to be, on board. I think a big part of it that. Where it often falls off the rails is in the follow through and the follow up because you, I am a firm believer that people can change and that you can teach old dogs new tricks and it doesn't happen in a vacuum and so part of it has to be the follow up and the encouragement and the catching them doing things well and talking about when things I'm going to, you know, beat you with a stick.
Right? But in a, Hey, I know things have been going really, well. And I saw you really frustrated the other day. Like, let's talk about it. Cause I want to, you know, I want to help you work through it. There's gotta be some sort of system or mechanism for followup on the part of the team, on the part of the doctor.
Cause otherwise you're not going to take someone who is. In the words of our writer, like significantly struggling with communicating with everyone and turn them overnight by one conversation into someone who's a master communicator, like this takes everyday progress and work. And so I think the last thing I would add to that is I love the pilot program idea.
There has to be check ins as you go. And then, hey, okay, we've been doing this for a month or we've been doing this for three months. What next? Like, how, where, do we go from here?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yep, totally. I agree with that. For the wife interactions, I would have a different conversation. I would, and again, I would, probably have this with both the owner and the wife together, because I think we, I do think we need to get clarity here, and I would really try to not, is really can't go to, if this goes to a defensive place, you're going to lose, you're going to get blasted.
And there's a chance that they're going to turn on you and hang, the problems on you and be like, well, you're it and you go, but why if like, I'm clearly not, I'm like, well, I tell you this as a spouse, it's a whole lot easier for me to hang problems on somebody that doesn't live in my house than to hang them on my spouse who I'm going to see all the time.
And some people will do that. And we've all seen it. They would much rather protect their comfort level at home than to actually fix a problem. And that's sad, but it's not everybody, but I think I would come to a place of peace of if this doesn't work and they're not going to hear this I'm going to be okay because I said what I wanted to say and I gave it my best shot and I'm not going to, and, if this becomes a terrible place for me to work, I'm going to go somewhere else.
And so I, that's why I want to make that peace. Alright, I would lean into confusion in this conversation, meaning I, you know, I'm unclear about what the expectations are for me. I think the staff at, I think the staff is, yeah, I'm not saying I would play dumb, but I would lean very much into, I don't know what the expectations are for me.
I don't know that the staff knows who to listen to, or I think the staff is getting mixed messaging. And that's causing some confusion. I see that— I feel like I'm doing a lot of work that's then being done again, or I feel like I'm doing work that was already done. I'm feeling like I don't know where I can act with autonomy and where I need to ask for permission.
I don't know. And so I don't feel like I'm serving you guys in a good way. And I'm, quite honestly, I'm starting to get to a point where I'm a bit frustrated about it. And so that's, actually what I would say. And then, I would remember your motivators. I don't know what this owner cares about.
I don't know what the spouse cares about. But I would like to understand that. Is it, is, are they being driven by a desire to make money because they have borrowed against their house, and they're gonna lose their house if this business goes under? Then I'm like, okay, money's not a dirty conversation in my mind, especially if you were like, we sunk everything we own into this practice and we're scared as hell. That's not dirty. That's the human condition. And so let's just talk about it and say, help me to get to help you get profitable, but you've got to give me a clear job description. You have to let me know what I'm allowed to do and how I'm allowed to work, right?
Ask them what done looks like, and this is why I would ask them together, because if you ask them separately, they'll probably tell you two different things. Ask them when they're together and say, I need to understand, when you think about having a manager in this practice, what does that manager's job look like?
What do they do, and what do you do? And I would like to make a list or talk through what those things are so I can understand your vision. And if you guys need to think about it for a little bit and then come back and we can talk about it more, that's fine too. But I really need to hear from both of you what the shared vision for my job is or what my role is.
But that's why I would ask them together for sure. I would not ask them separately.
Stephanie Goss: Yeah, that makes sense. And to, to your point if you have asked, if you have thought about what is motivating them or how they are motivated, then when you have the conversation about what done looks like and you have the rest of the conversation and particularly when you're having the follow up and pushing things along With people who might not be so willing to go on the journey with you It becomes significantly easier if you can frame it in the context of their motivators so if they are worried about the finances in the practice then you can speak to it from the framing of “Hey, I want to make sure that we're them As maximally efficient as possible.
I don't wanna burn salary hours by doing work that, that you also wanna do or that you would rather do yourself than have me do.” Or you know, like you can frame it in that language, because that's gonna push that urgency button for them because it is important to them.
Dr. Andy Roark: I agree with that. Figure out what done looks like. And get them to agree on what done looks like. And then, write it down. Write it down, type it up, give it back to them. And say, hey, I typed this up. I want to make sure that you guys, that this looks good to you guys. This will look like a job description.
Because it is.
But give it back to them. And say, are we in agreement? This is what I wrote down. I want to make sure everything looks okay for you guys. This is how we vision my job and what we're trying to get to. And I, ideally I'd like them to agree and say yes, but I'm putting it into their hand in writing, this is what you guys said, what the three of us agreed I would be doing.
And you can already see where I'm going with this. But, create it, make it real, put it back into their hand. What is the plan for us to get to this point? What needs to happen so that you guys are comfortable with me performing it this way? Are you good for me to start doing these things right now?
What do we need? And again, I would write that down as well. I'd say, this is what we need. And then, I am going to hold them to the plan and say, This is what we agreed on. This is my job. I'm going to give them clear feedback. Rome wasn't built in a day, just like we talked about before. They may be like, Oh yeah, you're right.
You know, I did kind of step on your toes here. Or I'm trying to get out of this, but I'm not out of it yet. And I felt like I needed to help. And anyway, give it some time, but Push steadily on that written list of what done looks like and give them feedback. And if you're feeling frustrated because you're not getting to do this, you want to know what the timeline is before you can take it over.
You want to know what training or steps or things they need to feel comfortable with you doing these things. We can have those conversations. But you have got a written plan you're working against and then let them know where your head's at as you go on without threatening It's not if I don't get to do this and I'm gonna
leave it's I feel like I'm I feel like this It's our expectations that were laid down But I'm not getting to do the bottom half of this list, and I've been asking on what does it take so I can get to the place where everybody's comfortable with me doing this, and I'm not getting a clear answer, and so I feel like I'm kind of stuck in a place where I'm always failing, and I don't know how to get out of this, and I feel like I'm not doing my job, and I don't know how I'm going to get to do my job, and so I just want you guys to know this is taking a toll on me, and I'm, starting to feel kind of frustrated with where we're going.
And the opportunities for me to have an impact here going forward. And I, anyway, I've asked before about what the plan is, and I understand the concerns. But I just wanted to be open and candid about where my head's at.
And then, if it continues not to work, you should leave. Um, That's it.
That's it. I mean, but if you've done all of these things and you have said to them, this was our plan, and honestly the same way I'm gonna use the plan for the job description, I'm going to try to use a communication plan and say, what is our plan for communicating better, blah, blah, blah. But ultimately it's a two pro.
I said at the beginning, we're gonna fight a two front war. Yep. It's fighting the war to get communication flowing to the team, and it's fighting a war of what's my job? I will tell you in my experience. These two things are probably tied together. They probably are stepping all over each other at the top, at the leadership level, and that's why communication is so bad down to the team level, they're probably not in agreement, or they don't know, and they don't want to say things that aren't going to be true.
And so oftentimes the not communicating and not having a clear organizational structure and decision making framework, those things are often interlinked. And so, but I'd still fight it as a two front war. But know that if you don't get the decision making mechanism sorted out, then communication is always going to be a challenge because you're not going to agree on what to communicate because you're not going to exactly know what the story is.
Stephanie Goss: And I think remembering that like people, we don't know what we don't know. And I can't, I mean, pretty much every single partnership team that I have worked for. didn't actually have a clear division of roles between themselves. There was one team that I worked for that there was, pretty after, after years of working together, there was very clear, this is my end of things.
This is your end of things. And here's how we divide the stuff in the middle. But, for a lot of people, it's like, you know, I've met a lot of practice owners where. One of them wants to do this thing and they want to buy the business and the other wants to support their partner. But they don't, they're giving up control.
And so if we assume good intent and we put our empathy shoes on, it is easy to imagine a world where maybe one person just feels like they're on along for the ride. And I know for me, if I feel like the ride is getting out of control, like I gripped the grip, the sides of the seat, you know, and hold on.
And so I think that thinking about it from that perspective helps with breaking the problems apart and asking them the questions in a way that doesn't feel like threatening or like, I don't, you know, it's not, necessarily about you, even though it is, it's about how can you guys work together.
And at the same time, I love what you said about “just leave” because the reality is the hard truth that I had to learn as a manager. It, and it was Andy was with me for, I learned this lesson very painfully. The reality is it's not your practice. And at the end of the day, you can't care more than they do.
And I have been there and it is a very painful place to work through that emotion because you do want it. And that says something about you as a person. And I love my fellow managers for it. And. it hurts, but the reality is you can't care more than they do and you can't make them do things that they don't want to do like you talked about in the beginning, Andy.
And so at the end of the day, like there is acceptance in the fact that it's not. It's not threatening, it just is. And if you do all of those steps and you, do all of the things, and that was, I'm telling you guys, this, episode is a real life therapy coaching that Andy gives Stephanie along the way because there was a time in my life where we had these conversations and I set the plan and I put it on the calendar and I said, I'm going to work this plan.
I'm going to do the things. And at the end of the day. The change didn't happen. And I said, I'm okay with it still hurt tremendously. And there was still a lot of emotions. But at the end of the day, I was like, I'm okay walking away because I did my part and I can't make somebody do something that they don't want for themselves.
Like I can't make it happen.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think sometimes we need to take that shot and then Give up. But like that's it. So at the very beginning, I said, I hope I didn't over promise, but I said, I want to lay down like, when do we get out of this? And I would say, I would work this plan and go through each of the steps. And if at any point, there's an insurmountable barrier where they're like, we're not going to talk to you about your job description.
Stephanie Goss: Peace out.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think, I would say, but exactly right, I would say I did it, I laid down my plan, I put in, I, I offered to have the meetings, I offered to try to make it work, and it didn't happen, and I'm going to, I'm going to walk, but I'm not going to go into every meeting being like, this has to go good, or else I'm out of here, but at some point I'm going to say, I laid down the plan, I, would say, I guess I would add, you know, I would probably set a timeline for yourself, and say, I don't know if it's six months if you don't see progress in six months, but if you're going to do that, what I would do is sort of jot down Some ideas about where we are right now, and how it feels, and what we see, and what the, like, actual problems are.
And then if you get to six months from now, and those are still the same problems, I would have a hard time going on. But I would say, but, when I got frustrated between now and six months, I'm say, I would say to myself, six months, I'm doing six months, I'm gonna keep my chin up, I'm gonna do my best, and we're gonna see where we are.
Stephanie Goss: Set a realistic timeline. Don't tell yourself 18 months from now, this is where I want to be because let me tell you, those 18 months will be miserable AF.
Just don't do, don't do, what I did.
Dr. Andy Roark: When you said that, I thought you were going to say, set up a realistic timeline, like three months, and I'm like, I think three months is too short.
Six to twelve months, I think, is, especially if you've got a lot of, if you've got a long history here. I mean, you know, it's the longer you've been in a relationship, kind of, the longer it sort of takes to emotionally extract yourself.
You know, set a timeline that gives you time for change, but also is not going to let you continue to be miserable for a long period. You know, Stephanie, you know how I feel when we are finished with a podcast? That I'm really proud of.
Stephanie Goss: How?
Dr. Andy Roark: J Just like when you have a baby. Like, that's how I feel. Like, it's, I feel like I delivered a baby with you. And I think that's the only way to explain it. I think that's probably the most accurate explanation that I can give. Now, let's slap this baby on the rear and send it out into the world. We should make an acronym. We should make an acronym for when we birth a podcast baby. Stephanie, she just left.
She just left the recording booth. Stephanie, come back! You don't, leave me with our baby, Stephanie! All right,
Stephanie Goss: I can't with you.
Dr. Andy Roark: You guys, take care. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take, enjoy our podcast, baby, that we made for you.
Stephanie Goss: Happy birthing day everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark: Happy birthing day.
Stephanie Goss: And that's a wrap on another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Thanks for joining us and spending your week with us. If you enjoyed this week's episode, head over to wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. It's the best way to let us know that you love listening. We'll see you next time.
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