This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…
When your direct boss sucks the life out of you, what do you do? This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are talking through a mailbag letter from a veterinarian who transitioned out of their old practice and into a new one. They love the team, the clients and the work. There is just one problem… the medical director has a polar opposite leadership style from our vet friend and it is sucking the life out of everything at work. Let’s get into this…
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. When your direct boss sucks the life out of you, what do you do? This week on the podcast, Andy and I are tackling a letter from the mail bag about that exact topic. We have a veterinarian who has gone to a new clinic, loves the clients, loves the work, loves the team. There's just one big drawback and that is the new medical director, they have radically different styles of leadership. And our vet friend is really struggling to find a common ground with this new medical director and they are wondering when styles of leadership are complete, opposites within the practice and it creates tension, how do I manage this? Let's get into this one. And now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back, it's me, Dr. Andy Roark and my co-host, my wingman, the one and only practice management goddess, Stephanie like paper and fire Goss, like paper and fire. Oh, how you feeling?
Stephanie Goss:
It's a good day. It's sunny here in western Washington for the first time in weeks so I cannot complain. How are you?
Dr. Andy Roark:
I am good. The spring is coming here in Greenville, South Carolina. I'm looking out into the trees in my neighborhood and they all have those green buds, you know what I mean? They are opening up. At first, they're just naked trees and then there's like this green haze and now they're not leafed, but the leaves are actively unfurling and I'm like, “Oh buddy, spring is about to explode.” The Uncharted Vet Conference is less than three weeks away.
Stephanie Goss:
I know.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It is coming down, it is sold out. We are cocked, locked and ready to rock it is going to be a great time with great people and I could not be more excited.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, I cannot wait. We have got a fantastic group that is coming together. It's just going to be so good. You and I know because we both have done some traveling and have gone to conferences so far this year, how good it feels to be with people. But there is something very, very unique about being able to be with our Uncharted family and I cannot wait. We've got some awesome newbies who I'm very excited about meeting who are coming to Greenville for the first time and people who are returning for the first time in three years and I cannot wait to see everybody. There's going to be lot of squealing in the lobby of the Westin.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree. Think about all the people that we've met virtually over the last two years.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we talk to them a lot and we're going to see them for the first time, that's going to be amazing. Now, I can get super geeky about this, but I don't want to because it's sold out and I just don't want people to feel bad because it's sold out. So anyway, it's great. Sorry if you're not coming,
Stephanie Goss:
But you know what, if you miss the boat, you definitely should keep an eye on the website because we are going to open registration here in a few months for the virtual conference in October, we're doing Get Shit Done again and there's no better way to ease yourself in if you're like, “I don't know, I've heard these guys are really crazy, I've heard they're really loud and it makes me a little bit nervous.” There's no better way than dipping your toe in virtually and come and hang out with us in October before you come hang out with us next April.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You can just turn the volume down-
Stephanie Goss:
Exactly.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… if you want. All right, let's get into this episode here.
Stephanie Goss:
I am super pumped man, the mailbag has been on fire. You guys have been sending in stuff left and right and it is so much fun.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Honestly, we've been getting a lot of from the mail bag and man, it is good stuff. So I am really excited for episodes that we have coming up, really good stuff. I saw one pop into the mail bag a couple of days ago and they were like, “I listen to all your podcasts about this and I understand in my mind what I'm supposed to do, but I don't have the words to say it. Could you guys role play it or do things like that?” I'm like, you know what? I think we can.
Stephanie Goss:
I know.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So I saw that and I'm like, “We have not really done that before, but a 100%…” Whenever we do stuff where we actually role play a little bit or we make it sound like the conversation itself, I generally get emails from that when people are like, “That was so helpful. It's not exactly how I'd say it, but I needed to hear someone say it just so I could really get the vibe of what was going on.” So I thought that was a great question, it made me really excited.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. We've got a bunch of stuff coming up and this is one of those emails we got, and this is such a good one. This is a veterinarian who has moved into a new practice. They went from their prior practice, which was sold to corporate and felt like that was not the right fit after some time for them and so they have moved over to an indy, newer startup practice and they are super stoked. They're having a great time, they're loving the work, the clients are great, the team is fantastic, but there is a big drawback for them. And that is that the medical director is their polar opposite. They feel like the medical director seems to be a very reactive person and our writer describe themselves as very proactive and kind of calm. The medical director seems to be very unenthusiastic and that is probably the thing that is stressing this doctor out the most.
Stephanie Goss:
It feels like all the suggestions and ideas from the team are really met with negativity unless they're coming from the medical director themselves. Then of course it's the greatest idea in the world. And there's not a whole lot of praise for the team, the leadership style seems to be really focused on highlighting mistakes, highlighting errors, asking for corrections and this doctor is really struggling because their style feels like the opposite.
Stephanie Goss:
And so when they are trying to engage and direct the team and that style is present and it's radically different from the medical director, it is creating tension between the two of them. And so our writer is asking, “How do I or we manage this relationship and this person to have a better outcome?” And I just thought that this was such a great one, because there are so many different leadership styles and it is not uncommon to be in a situation where your boss is different from you and you got to figure out how to make that work.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, definitely. Oh, definitely and there's two pieces to this too. There are different leaders styles, and then there's also being a bad boss, those are different. At some point you're like, bad is not a style. If that's true, then I have my own style of basketball that is like, “No, I'm just not good at it.” Some people play fast, some people set up and very strategic, I flail around. It's not a style, it's a lack of skill. And so anyway, I'm not saying that's what the boss has, but let's call a spade, a spade here from the beginning and say, sometimes it's a style difference. And style differences can be wildly frustrating. It's just, it's not how I would do this or it's not how I like to be communicated with.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I'm not even saying the person's not effective, they may be… The worst thing in my mind emotionally is when the person is hugely effective and their style is not mine and I'm like, “Ah, I can't even console myself with the fact that they're not good, they are good and I don't like it.”
Stephanie Goss:
That's a good story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so that's even worse. So anyway, those are not the same thing we'll say at the beginning and so we will start to parse those things apart because they are important. The point I'm trying to make here right off the bat at the beginning is, bad bosses are not bad, they're not bad. They're either different or they're struggling. And let's be honest, a lot of us got into leadership roles because nobody else did it. We were there and they needed a medical director, or we were the most senior person and that's how they decided who would be the head technician and that's how the person got there. They're not generally a jerk. I don't tend to a meet bad people who are bosses, bullies, things like that. I know they exist, but they are in the vast minority.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Most people are doing their best. Nobody trained them on how to be a good boss or a good leader, or it's not in their natural skill set or things like that. And so the first thing in all of this is start from a place of compassion, realize that people are probably generally doing their best and it's easy to roll the person and the behavior together and say, “This person is unenthusiastic and they're reactive and they don't care.” and you go, “No, this person's probably a good person who's trying to run a vet hospital and do a good job. They have behaviors that are frustrating or counterproductive.” And if you can just do that simple little surgical procedure of separating the person from the behavior, that's the first step and one of the most important pieces in actually being able to work with this person.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. So separate the behavior from the emotion too, that is a hard piece of it, and I think that's that falls right too where we usually start when conversations are going to be hard, which is that emotionally we have to get ourselves into a safe head space and we have to be able to live out our safe acronym. So our S which stands for, can I sit next to this person?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Can I smile at them?
Stephanie Goss:
You're giving me this look like, is she going to remember what they stand for?
Dr. Andy Roark:
No. I was like, are you passing this to me or are you like, which is… And am I supposed to come in with the answer here? No, you got it. Safe is, can you sit next to this person? Can you smile at them? And if you are too triggered to sit next to them and smile at them, then this is a bad time to have this conversation, don't do it. You can talk to them tomorrow, write it on your calendar for next week so that you don't forget, so you're going to hold yourself accountable, you don't have to do it right now. I think a lot of people are like, “If I don't say something, I won't say something.” If you can't sleep on it and still decide that this is worth having the conversation, then you're are probably coming from an emotional place and that's probably bad.
Dr. Andy Roark:
A is assuming good intent. That goes back to what I was talking about before. I don't suspect that your boss is trying to undermine the practice or trying to make people miserable, he or she is probably just struggling to communicate effectively with you and, or with the rest of the team. F is, well, here is my fault. How have I set this person up to fail? And have you communicated the best way to work together? Have you communicated how you like to communicate with people, set expectations? Have you communicated what you need to do your job effectively or to feel included so that this person knows? “Oh, I need to loop this person at this phase.” Or, “These are the types of communications that make this person feel valued.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And if I haven't given that information or we haven't discussed, “Hey, let's talk about how you and I can work together in the best way possible.” maybe I haven't shared enough with this person to make them successful. And the last thing is, E is what is the end result? What do you want in this? Yeah, what do you want the outcome of the conversation you're going to have or this ways of working approach? What do you want that to be? And I think that takes us really nicely into setting realistic expectations.
Stephanie Goss:
I think for me, where it starts is sitting back and thinking, “Where are you trying to go? And the end result is really important here. And for my pre-work, I would start with E and work myself backwards from there, thinking about, when somebody moves into an independent startup kind of environment, there are some people that fall into that. There is also a type of person that is attracted to that independent, fast moving, growing environment. There are challenges with entrepreneurship that come there and so if you, as an associate doctor are attracted to that because you want to be a part of creating something new from the ground up, that's a conversation that has to exist outside of your head. You can't just want that and not share that with the other leaders in the practice, including the medical director.
Stephanie Goss:
And so for me, I would start with thinking about what is the end result? What do I want out of this? Why did I join this practice? What am I attracted to? If you want to be able to actively engage in helping lead the team, in being a role model for the support staff, you can do those things without permission, that it's not about needing someone's approval to do those things, but it is about creating an environment where you can work together as a team, because for most of us, that is what we want.
Stephanie Goss:
And for most of us, that conversation exists in our head. And so for me, the safe part of it is taking some time to figure out what is it that you actually want from this? And then working your way backwards. I would say you have set yourself up to fail and set the other person up to fail if you haven't had that conversation.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And so thinking about what do you want? And then thinking about it a little bit from a clean slate perspective, even if you've been working with this person now for 12 months, there's no reason why you can't say, “Hey, I've been doing a lot of thinking about this lately and I would love to have a conversation with this about you. Can we carve out some time to sit down and talk about this one on one?” Or whatever that looks like.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I want to put my finger on something that you said as an example of the importance of setting expectations. Because when you said this is a small, fast moving, independent practice, and you can change things and you want to grow things and you want to do things like that, I think you and I have that expectation about what it means to be an independent practice. But I think there are other people who very much have the expectation of, I want to be in an independent practice because I don't want to have outside pressure or downward pressure about meeting growth targets or meeting sales goals or things like that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I a 100% understand not wanting that, but if your expectation is, “We are at a small, independent practice because we want to grow, and be nimble and try new things.” and their expectation is, “We're a small, independent practice because we very much like the way that we do things now and we like to move at our own speed.” that's a recipe for disaster at least until you get your head around, “Oh my expectation for why we're in this place and your expectation are wildly different.” And now I've got some options and eyes wide open, I can try to collaborate with you. I can stop doing what I'm doing and just go, “Okay. Well, I guess that's how it is here, because that's what the medical director wants.” or I can leave and say, “This is not my expectation of what a small practice should be, I hate to leave. I love the clients, I love the culture, but I'm not going to be happy if I feel like I'm stagnant and that seems to be what is in store for me here. And so I'm going to pick my poison.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
So anyway, when I come back to setting expectations, I think that's really it. Is like, what does this person want? Where are they trying to go? What do they care about? And just start to grasp those and say, well, if their expectation is, “We're staying still, we're treading water, I better get on board with that or I better figure out what my other options are.” The other part of expectations is, what is in your power and what is not in your power. And I can tell you that was one of the hardest lessons for me as a young associate vet, is to work in a practice and come slamming into the wall and realizing that there's things that I wanted or ways that I wanted to do things and that was not going to happen.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The people above me, the leadership structure that was in place, they did not like that I idea and they did not want to practice that way. And they didn't care that what they did, in my opinion, was wildly inefficient or frustrating every day that I saw it happen. They were like, “Nope, we heard you, we understand.” I can be negative and say don't care or I can say they did their math, which I am not privy to, and they know things that I don't know and they have concerns that I am wildly unaware of. And so when I take the most positive view on it, I don't know what all they weighed in their decision. But ultimately their decision was-
Stephanie Goss:
We're moving in a different direction.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, we're going in a different direction. There is peace and acceptance. And part of acceptance is saying, “I have the power to work with my staff on the ground. I have power over how I engage with my technicians and the front desk and the assistance every day and how I treat them and how I talk to them and how I work with them up to the point that I'm allowed to have that flexibility and that control. I have power in how I treat the clients. I have power in how I practice medicine. I have power in how I behave and how I present myself. And all of those things, I have power in.” If that's not enough, and sometimes that's not enough, then we start to have real conflict here.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so expectation is, what is in my power and what is not in my power. And once I recognize these things, these three things over here that I care about, they are not in my power, that is the first step in acceptance and saying, “Well, I need to either accept these or I need to go somewhere else or I need to work to change what's there.” But you got to recognize what's in your power and what's not. And the last thing is, you got to have realistic goals. So when you said we have to have these conversations and decide what do we want? And I'm like, “I want us to be best friends.” That's probably not going to happen. If your ways of communicating and leading are radically diametrically, opposed to the person who's there, if your expectation, if your endpoint, if your goal is, “We are going to be the best friends and we are going to see eye to eye.” I think you're probably going to be disappointed.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think realistic goals are to say, “Okay. I'm working with someone who's very different than me, they see things differently than me, they lead in a way that's not exactly how I would lead. And if I can just recognize I am going to always have to be a little careful about how I communicate with this person, I'm going to have to practice patience because the way that they're going to approach things is just not how I would approach things. And I'm going to have to learn to accept that and be okay with that.” A realistic goal of, we are going to have a functional work relationship and respect for each other, that may be the best goal that you can set. Functional relationship, respect for each other. We might enjoy each other in non-work capacity or talking about non-work subjects.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And if you get to that point, that's not failure. That can be a 100% functional success. But if your benchmark is, we are great friends and they talk to me the way that I like to be talked to, and they make decisions the way I think they should make decisions, I think you're going to continue to be frustrated. So you've got to get your head on what is realistic here and decide if you're okay with that. And, that sounds hard and when we start talking about realistic expectations, the last place and head space that takes me, is setting realistic boundaries.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And you see how these sort of things all dovetail into each other of what is the end result you want? Okay, what is realistic? Okay, given what is realistic, what are the boundaries that I have to set? Because this situation can suck the life out of entrepreneurial can-do people. If you're like, I cheerlead, I leave in my heart, I'm excited, I love it, I want to jump in, do stuff, change things, try new things and you have a direct boss over you who just shuts that stuff down again and again and again and again, it can bleed the life out of you. It can make you feel hopeless and it can make you feel terrible. And I feel like I'm being very negative on the boss and there's two sides to every story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And again, there are much more measured people who are not the enthusiastic people and they're not wrong and they're not bad, they can be great leaders. In fact, a lot of people like myself at a younger age, very much needed to be reigned in so I didn't exhaust every everyone.
Stephanie Goss:
Totally.
Dr. Andy Roark:
A 100%. You're like, still today.
Stephanie Goss:
Sometimes we have to bust out the shock collar, it's fine.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, that's exactly right. And anyway, you have to set personal boundaries which means… And I hate to say this because you guys know how much I love vet medicine and I love practicing and all, being in practice, I love being part of a team, there a 100% have been times in my career when I have had the mantra in my mind, “This is just a job. This is just a job.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Or, “This is not my practice. This is not my practice.” And I feel like that can be more important in an independent practice because theoretically it could be your practice. You're like, “Well, it's an independent… I could be the medical director and then we would make these changes.” but having the mantra, this is just a job or this is not my practice. Those don't have to be toxic, negative things, they can be words of affirmation-
Stephanie Goss:
And super healthy.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes. I agree, super healthy. That's my big thing is don't be afraid to set those boundaries and just say, “What are the must haves for me in this job?” And if I have all the must haves and I like my clients and I like my team, then when it comes to dealing with management or making changes, I'm going to repeat to myself, “This is just a job. This is not my clinic.” I'm happy to share with you what I think, I will give you honest feedback, I will listen, I will honor the decisions that are made, but I am not going to beat my head against the wall trying to make changes that are not going to be received or they're not going to go forward or my input is not going to be appreciated. I'm going to set that boundary for myself of, I'll put it forward and then I'm going to let it go.
Stephanie Goss:
I think the thing that's important is if you do set that boundary can be very, very healthy to say, “This is just a job for me. I'm okay with this, it is what it is. I'm going to do my best.” I will also say that the hard work then falls to you to maintain that as a healthy space and not let it become toxic. And I say that is really hard because I like you, have been in a situation where that was the case. I was at a point in my life where it was like, it has to just be a job, because I have to let go. It's unhealthy for me to feel like I've in conflict all the time and so I'm just going to let go and I'm going to show up, I'm going to do really good work, I'm going to do my job and then I'm going to go home and I'm not going to worry about the rest of it.
Stephanie Goss:
And it's very easy to let your thoughts and even your actions become negative when there is still existing conflict over time. It's very easy to maintain in that space for a short period of time and keep a super positive, happy, healthy attitude. And I will say that when you are picking your poison and you're thinking about the way that you want to proceed in the long term, know that the head space work here in terms of positivity is going to fall to you. Because if you're not actively participating in work to help this other person grow in ways that will help better the relationship with you, the healthy, positive head space work is going to fall to you. Otherwise, it can very easily switch over that line to negative. “Well, I don't agree with what they're going to do so they can just do whatever they want.” That is the unhealthy and it's really easy for our mind to switch over into that unhealthy place very quickly.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I completely agree. So I want to add one more personal boundary, because it's important. Remember that you cannot change anyone. You cannot make anyone be who they don't want to be, you cannot make someone grow, only they can change themselves. And so if you're going back to the realistic expectations and setting healthy boundaries, you can work with people, you can give them feedback, you can talk to them, you can support them, but you cannot make them change. And if they don't want to change, that's not on you, that's on them. And I love that you said this takes muscle to say, “I am going to detach from my need for control here and step back and say, ‘Not my circus, not my monkeys.' But I am not going to become negative, I'm not going to become fatalistic. I'm not going to become resentful and undermine what is going on here.” And I think that you have to hold that mental space.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There's a couple things that not allowed in this head space, in my mind. Number one, you are not allowed to detach and then become toxic. You are not allowed to detach and become resentful because if you are resentful, then you are in the wrong place. Life is too short, you it to go through exactly one time. I don't know why it's happening right now, I have a number of friends who have very severe physical ailments, cancer survivors, people like that, going through chemotherapy in my life and it just seems to be happening a lot.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And boy, it is really made clear to me you get to go through this life one time and nothing is guaranteed. And if you are resentful at your job or you are miserable, you are too valuable and your time is too valuable and you need to go somewhere else and do something else that will make you happy. And so it is your responsibility to hang there but two things you're not allowed to do. Number one, you're not allowed to be there and be resentful. That's not okay, you deserve better for yourself. And number two, you are not allowed to martyr yourself. And you and I have a podcast, is one of my favorite podcasts that we've done, it's something like, I can't remember what it's called, but it was about, I can't quit because I protect the staff. And it was about someone, they were a manager and they were in a practice they thought was toxic and they were like, “I am miserable, but I can't leave because I don't want to leave my staff behind unprotected.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I said, “That's not allowed.” You're you're not allowed to be a martyr, you're not allowed to give yourself to this organization, to sacrifice for other people. Nope. You have to take care of yourself, you have to take care of your family. You're not going to do anyone any good if you're burned out and broken down. And so you can be there and figure out a balance that works for you with good boundaries and a good head space and some acceptance, or if that's not possible, there's no shame in that. But you need to recognize that acceptance is not working, that you are becoming resentful and then you need to take care of yourself.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Cool.
Stephanie Goss:
Is there anything else that you can think of from the head space perspective?
Dr. Andy Roark:
No. I think that's a good breakdown of kind of how I think about these things. I think we should take a break and then come back and let's talk about how we actually navigate these waters? How do we make our lives better?
Stephanie Goss:
Love it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss, you got a second to talk about GuardianVets?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. What do you want to talk about?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed, because the phones never stop ringing. And I'm sure you hear from these people as well. Like our caseload is blowing up and the doctors are busy and the phones just don't stop.
Stephanie Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip the switch and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk and they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments and give them support. And it really is a godsend.
Stephanie Goss:
Pre-pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after-hours call help but at this point I can't believe how many people don't realize that they are offering help during the daytime as well, which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices because everybody is shorthanded, everybody is drowning in phone calls and so we've talked about GuardianVets a lot on the podcast and every time we do, we always get somebody who says, “What is that?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use them help on the phones or up the front desk, check them out. It's guardianvets.com. And if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So check it out, guardianvets.com.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody, I'm just going to jump in here for one minute and say a few thank yous before we get back to the podcast. First of all, I am headed to sunny Greenville, South Carolina in about a week actually, when this episode comes out and I cannot wait to spend some time with some of my best friends and some of the people who are going to be joining us are our Anchor Gang sponsors. And I have to give a huge, huge, special shout out and thank you to our friends at CareCredit, at Hill's Pet Nutrition and Nationwide, we absolutely could not make our live events happen without their support. And so from every single attendee and our Uncharted team, from the bottom of our hearts, I want to thank you guys for your support, we couldn't do this without you and I can't wait to spend time with all of them and our attendees in Greenville.
Stephanie Goss:
Andy and I are both so excited to have everybody get to town and join in the fun because we are finally going to get to meet some people that we have spent the last three years face to face over the internet with and it is going to be awesome. There is going to be a lot of squealing in lobby at the Westin Poinsett in just a week. And I also have to say thank you to our friends at Banfield, they deserve a huge shout out of appreciation as well because they have stepped up to the plate in a big way for 2022 for us. They are helping Andy and I make the podcast more accessible to the entire veterinary community by providing transcripts for every episode of both the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast and the Cone of Shame Podcast for the entire 2022 year.
Stephanie Goss:
This falls right into their wheelhouse of striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. To check out the transcripts, if you know somebody who would benefit from being able to read our transcripts versus hearing accessibility of the podcast, head on over to the blog. You can also check out more information there about equity, inclusion and diversity at Banfield, the address is unchartedvet.com/blog, you'll find every episode transcript in order, along with more information about E, I and D at Banfields. And now, back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, let's jump back into it. Let's get started here, let's take some action steps. What are the tools in the toolbox to try to improve this situation where the medical director is reactive as opposed to proactive, where they seem to suck the energy out of ideas? Where they generally sort of seem to turn off the employees. How do we help this person? How do we help this situation?
Stephanie Goss:
Okay. I think it starts with having some conversation with that person. And for me, there's three big steps that are solution steps that fall into kind of the head space realm before I ask them to have that conversation. It is really easy to look at someone whose style is radically different from you or who acts a way that is very different than you and interacts with the team very differently than you and focus really on the negative. When we talked in the head space section about embracing the positive and so for me, that starts with trying to get myself into a good head space about it. And so the three things that I would say to start with are, I would spend some time observing their team.
Stephanie Goss:
And what I mean by that is everybody has a rock star or a person, even if we try to not play favorites, everybody has someone that we just click with really well on the team generally. And so I would look at the team that they work with regularly, and I would look at what works really well between them. Whether it's one tech that always works with them or who just knows how to get it done for that doctor. I would look at what is going well and I would also look at what are the things that that person or those people are struggling with to get yourself some concrete examples of things that they are doing well.
Stephanie Goss:
Because if you're just focused on the negative, the conversation is going to stay in the negative. But if you're trying to focus on the positive and get some concrete examples of, “Okay. Look, this is something that they do really well with some of their team. And so how can I draw that out and bring it across the rest of the team as a whole, or translate that into how they work with me?” So looking at the way that they interact with the team, what are some of the things that are working well? And then what are some of the things that even the rock stars on your team struggle with, with this doctor?
Stephanie Goss:
And then the second piece of it for me is really head space work for you or yourself, which is look, you have to accept that their weaknesses and their flaws are going to be much bigger in your head than they are in actuality. Because the reality is when we are struggling with someone, we have conversations in our head and we blow things out of proportion, even if we think we're being perfectly rational about it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And so really taking some time to look critically at some of the things that they're doing and ask yourself, is this really as bad as I'm telling myself it is in my head? Because the reality is there are lots of things that is probably out of proportion. And so trying to do the head space work to bring it into proportion and say, what are some concrete examples of things that I can actually be concerned about? And the flip side of that is shifting now focus then to the positive. So what are those strengths? How do I shine a light and call out the good behaviors, the things that they are doing well, how do I focus on that so that I can try and get them to repeat that behavior?
Stephanie Goss:
Where can I find the positive reinforcement? And so all of that is mental games, mental gymnastics for me that I need to do before I sit down and have a conversation with them, because if I have done those things, then I generally on a personal level have a capacity to bring much more of a positive head space to a conversation and I'm much more likely to be able to be safe when I say it down to have this conversation with this person.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I love that. And I want to expand on that because I think that's so smart and I think it's really good. We have, what's called negativity bias, which is just the way that we're made and we're wired, is we tend to remember the negative things. The things that we don't like, we definitely remember. The things that we do like, we just kind of overlook. We don't even think about them and then we go on. And so I think a great idea for getting ready for this is what are the good things this person does so that we can throw those in and we can be fair to the person. The other thing is just in an ongoing fashion, this is just good communication, good managing up, positive reinforcement is your friend. Is when this person engages in a way that's positive, when you guys are on the same page, celebrate them.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Just let them know that you felt really heard. “I appreciate that you really seem to consider this idea and that meant a lot.” And yeah, that's the slow game, that's the long game, but it costs nothing. And I think a lot of times when we are working up the chain of command, we forget that positive reinforcement works great up the chain, which means when your a medical director or whatever, when they make the call that you like, when they move in a direction you think is positive, positively reinforce that. Don't just not say anything and because they don't know how you perceive that. So yeah, I thought that was really great. I think you're doing a good job of being fair to the person.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And again, separating the person from the behavior here and go, “Hey, it's not that this person is bad or this person is awful to work with, it's that they have these behaviors that I don't like, and I want to parse out what those behaviors are. And I also want to parse out the behaviors that they're good at.” And that feels like a very fair, good, healthy conversation space. I really like that. I like the idea of trying to understand what this person cares about and what they're trying to do. This is seek first to understand. And so when I talked before, I said I worked at this place and I was super fired up and I ended up not feeling like my ideas were being taken seriously or people didn't care, and I kind of had to put up those boundaries to be fair to them. I don't really know where they were trying to go or what they were trying to do.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Especially, these are easy conversations when you come into a new place or you're just starting to work with people, it feels very casual. You can definitely do it later on, but basically having a conversation and just saying, “Hey, I'm thinking about the future and I'm kind of wanting to understand sort of where the practice is going and what's important to you guys. And I want to be supportive of you and make sure that I can be a good work colleague and help you get where you want to be. And so can you tell me what your main objectives for the hospital are in the next year? Are there programs that you're excited about? What does success look like? What do you most hope to accomplish in the next year or two? When you think back to what's happened in the recent past, what are you most pleased with? What are you most excited about?
Dr. Andy Roark:
And all of these things serve two purposes. Number one is they help me to understand who is this person and what do they care about? And are those cares compatible with what I care about? And a lot of times I'll get on board with whatever you want to get on board with, I have to believe we're moving forward. And there's a big difference in me saying, “This is maybe not the priorities that I would choose, but priorities have been chosen and we are making forward progress.” versus, “Priorities have not been chosen and we are not making forward progress.” Those would be very different experiences for me.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The other reason I want to have those conversations too, is because these are going to provide context for the ideas that I'm going to propose. When I go and I talk to this person about changes that we want to make, or things that I think that we could grow or develop, I'd like to know what their objectives are and what they're excited about and what they're most proud of, because then I can talk to them about what's important to me in a way that matches up with what's important to them. And now I'm building some commonality, “Hey, this is what's good for me. It also matches up with where you want to go. This feels like collaboration territory. Welcome to work together town.” That's what it seems like to me.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But if you don't know those things, then you don't have that insight to the person and you also don't have that ability to build proposals that hit their objectives as well. And so I think that's just a good part of that conversation.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think that's great. Some of this is going to be hard because when you are polar opposite… I love the context that you gave for like asking them what do they care about, because then you have the ability, like you said, to frame the things that matter to you in the context of what matters to them and try and find that commonality. And when you get into some of the in depth conversations and start talking about how do you want to work together and how to try and build those bridges, they're hard conversations because it is emotional.
Stephanie Goss:
And the reality is if you're in a clinic where the medical director is your “boss” and you're in a hierarchy structure, you are managing up. And so for me, I love listening to your point and hearing that information. And I think when it comes to the hard parts of the conversation, what has been really, really helpful for me in terms of learning how to manage up is to prepare myself a little bit and do some mapping for hard conversations. What that looks like for me is thinking about kind of a formula, and over the years, I've developed a way to make it comfortable for me. And you have to make it feel comfortable for you otherwise, it's just going to sound like you're reading a script.
Stephanie Goss:
But for me, it has been about, okay, I want to balance the facts with also the emotions and how I feel. And where that often gets us into trouble is that we lean too much into the facts and we don't have actually bring up how we feel, or we lean too much into the feelings and then we get in trouble because then we get pissed off or we let our upset come out and then we're yelling at our boss, that's never a good thing. So for me, when I think about that piece of it, I try and think about how can I map this conversation so that when we get to the point where we are talking about working together and things that I need from them, I have a plan for how that conversation goes.
Stephanie Goss:
And so for me, I usually start with asking them for help, because when you ask someone for help, I have never had somebody not immediately take it down a few notches, even if they're upset about something. So for me, it's about, “Hey, I need your help.” When this thing, and this goes back to having those concrete examples and observing their behavior, when I tell the team to do X and you in front of everybody, tell them to do Y and you're giving them a concrete example that they can visualize, that they can see and hear in their own head, then this is what happens for me, this is my reality and I tell them. “I feel embarrassed. I feel like you are making me seem like I am not a valuable member of the team.”
Stephanie Goss:
This is where you have to think about how does this make you feel? And using I statements are really important here, and tell them, this is the impact of that to me on a personal level, and then ask for what you need. “I need us to work together. I need us to be a united front in front of the team. So in the future, if you disagree with something that I'm doing, can you pull me aside and have that conversation with me privately versus voicing that in front of the team? Would that work for you? Because you may still do exactly what you're going to do and disagree with me and that's okay as long as I don't feel like I have been embarrassed in front of the team, and that's how that makes me feel. Would that work for you?” Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Doing that kind of mapping for myself in my head helps me be able to kind of walk that middle ground between, this is a hard conversation. I know it's going to be a hard conversation. It helps me manage my feelings, particularly because I'm one of those people where I tend to hit the mad button, it's the Irish in me. And I lean into that and I have to reign it in and so for me, walking through these conversations, not rehearsing it, not practicing it so that like I said, it sounds like I'm using a script, but really in my brain getting clear about what exactly about this is bothering me and coming from a concrete example, helps me manage up because then I'm asking them for something tangible.
Stephanie Goss:
And it's really hard when I do that… Even somebody who is emotional in the moment, if you ask them for help, if you give them a concrete example, if you tell them why it bothers you or what about it is frustrating or angering or upsetting, whatever emotions you're tying to it and then you ask them for help, I have never not had that conversation at least go decently. It may not go spectacularly, a lot of times it goes way better than you think, but it may not go spectacularly, but at least it's always gone decently for me and that really helps me move through some of those hard conversations.
Stephanie Goss:
Because to your point earlier on when we were talking about head space, we've got some choices and we can choose to disengage and we still have to stay positive. And so some of that positivity comes from having some of those hard conversations. Like, “Hey, I need us to work together. And here's some things that I need.” You have to ask them for that, that's part of that managing up relationship, is navigating some of those harder conversations.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree. And in having those conversations, I guess the last part that I would put in these conversations, learning to say no gracefully is an important communication leadership skill that generally doesn't get taught.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so when you're having these sort of hard conversations especially when you're working with your boss, you can say no, you just need to know how to do it. And so there's sort of three different ways that I tend to say no gently.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The first one is from improv comedy that I love and do, it's yes and. And so when the boss says, “I don't think we're going to be able to do this.” And I'll say, “I hear that we're not going to be able to do it and I think that maybe later in the year, there could be a real window where we might be able to circle back because we had talked about doing these other things and maybe we could do it together at that point later on.” And so I'm going to say yes and agree with what I'm being told and not but, because but is a barrier word. When I say yes but, what it really means is…
Dr. Andy Roark:
We've all been trained that when someone says something, but something else, “Andy, you're a really great listener, but…” I just disappeared from my brain whatever you said before the word but, because I'm like, “That's fluff, now you're going to tell me what you think and we're going to talk about.” And so, “Andy, you're a great listener and I look forward to us working on your personal development program so that you can continue to grow in these other ways.” And you go, “Okay, great. I hear that.” Same thing, there are going to be things instead of having barrier conversations, instead of saying no, you can say yes and, add in what you need.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“Hey, Stephanie, I need this by the end of the week.” and you can say, “Yes, I understand this is important and what would you like me to deprioritize so that I can get that done because my calendar right now is really full.” And people are like, “Oh, you can do that?” You can totally do that. You can say, “Yes and what would you like me to put on hold to make this happen?” And that is a 100% reasonable. The second one is the basics of disagreeing. And the way that we disagree, the first thing again, is say something positive. And so they'll say, “Hey, I need you to be seeing more appointments in a day.” And you can say, “Yeah. You know what? We do have a lot of clients that want to get in. I'm staying late every night so how can we get more clients in given the time constraints that we already have? What does that look like in your mind?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so say something positive and then ask them a question and then see what they say and then engage from there. And so, “Andy, I need you to get more appointments done in a day.” And I'll say, “I totally hear that. I know that we're shorthanded, I know we've a lot of clients that want to get in and we don't want clients to be stuck out in the cold. And my question for you is given that I'm already not getting out of here until a half an hour past the shift, how do you see this happening? Where are our changes in efficiency that are going to make this possible?” And then just put it back to them in that way.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then the last thing is summarizing and reframing. So it's, what I hear you saying is this and I'm going to say it back to them and then I'm going to present it in the way that I sort of see it and say, “Okay, I see what you're saying. Here's the challenge that I see us ahead.” And so now I have agreed with what you said, you know that I listened to what you said because I said it back to you, and now I have a question about how we're going to go forward or I'm going to look at this in a different way, from my perspective and say, “Great. From the perspective of the doctors, how does this happen?” And put it back to them like that and those are all very similar.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Basically the pattern that you see is agreement and showing that I understand and I heard what this person said and then coming back generally with either an addition, adding to what they said or giving them a question that illustrates my point or my position on the challenge that I'm facing and letting them wrestle with it a little bit to see where I'm coming from or validating what they're saying, and then sharing with them my perception of what the problem is to see if I can get them to engage with it in that way that's most relevant, I guess, to my priorities.
Stephanie Goss:
I love that. And it's funny while you were talking through that section, I was actually thinking about some hard conversation that you and I even had this last week that modeled this pattern. So if you guys are wondering what actually happens, this is real stuff. And even Andy and I put ourselves through this and it works because we had a moment where Andy was really mad at me for something that I had done during a team meeting and he was frustrated and I was also frustrated because I didn't feel heard, and we use this pattern. And it's so funny because as you were talking this, I was like, “Oh look, our conversation afterwards followed this exact model.” And the end result was we both were just like, “Oh, okay. Now we see where the other person is coming from.”
Stephanie Goss:
Like, it could have been the kind of thing where obviously I would've probably been ticked off and in a snotty mood for the rest of the day because of that kind of interaction before but literally, as soon as it happened, we both were messaging each other and within five minutes had had this conversation hashed out and both were in a place where I feel like we both felt like, “Okay, we can see where the other person is coming from. And even if we were still feeling emotions because it doesn't always dissipate right away, we could see a path forward to how are we going to work together to solve this problem.” And so that for me is the best possible course of action here because we do have to pick our poison.
Stephanie Goss:
And so for me, having the ability to have those hard conversations and manage up is so critical because if you can have that conversation and you can feel heard and if they can feel heard, there is always potential that someone can change. But I think your point that you made really early on was a good one which is that we can't make them change, we can't want it more than they do, it is not our practice and so at the end of the day, we need to be able to find acceptance and peace.
Stephanie Goss:
And so on a personal level, if you can have those conversations, if you can feel heard and if someone chooses not to do something with it, for me, that's where I can sleep at night because I'm like, “Look, that's on them not on me. I have engaged in the process, I have spoken up, I have listened, I have participated and I still can't change it. And okay with that because now I either can be okay with it and continue on because I've decided it doesn't matter enough or I can be okay with it and I've decided this is not something that I can continue on with and so I'm going to pick my poison.”
Stephanie Goss:
And maybe that means leaving or changing my position or whatever the end result may be, but I can be okay with that because I have worked through that hard work. And I think that's the kind of stuff that you don't learn how to do and the hard conversations, you can learn how to have conversations with your peers, we don't often learn how or practice, how to have those conversations up with our bosses. And it is just as important if not more important, I feel like.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I agree. And I think also that's part of a healthy work environment too, is that there are going to be times that you don't agree with people. And especially when people care a lot and they're really working hard, their feelings are going to get hurt or they're going to take things personally and-
Stephanie Goss:
That was a 100% in our conversation.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And the goal should not be that no one ever gets frustrated or that things don't ever get tense. I don't think it's possible to do something that people care about without there being some frustration or conflict. And we talked about there's healthy conflict and there's unhealthy conflict and the goal should be healthy conflict where you say, “I don't agree with what you did or I don't agree with what you said or how you said it or this is how I felt when I heard that.” And then we talk about it, and we go back and forth and we say, “I understand that you felt this way and I understand why you felt this way and this is why I reacted that way. Had I known A, I probably would not have said B.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And you said, “Yeah. Well, if I had known C, then I wouldn't have said A that way.” And then you go, “Oh well, there we are. Thank you for talking this through with me.” And you go, “Okay.” And then we go on with our lives and that's… But that's what good teamwork looks like. It's not sunshine and rainbows and happiness all the time, sometimes it's tense conversations where both people end up feeling heard and then they go on with their lives. And they're like, “Well, that's it.” Sort that out and it's not a thing anymore. And so anyway, that a great example. Steph, that's all I got.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. This was fun, I think. This is a hard one and the thing that I can say last to wrap us up I think is, it's really important to have a sense of community and so lean into that. Lean into your team if you are our mail bag writer, you might be in a place where you lean into your team and the good relationships that you do have and that might be enough. Sometimes we have to look outside of our team and connecting with people who are having similar struggles or challenges or who know what it is like or who have the perspective, and that's one of the things that I love most about Uncharted, is just being able to float those moments or questions out to a community and say, “Hey, here's what I'm struggling with. Does anybody have any suggestions for how I can approach this?” and be able to talk through some things is so, so valuable, I feel like.
Stephanie Goss:
And so finding your people, especially if you are in a position where you do feel a little bit isolated because of challenges or just the nature of your position, because wherever you're leading from within the team, it can be hard to be a leader.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. No, I agree. Well, thanks for doing this with me, I appreciate it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Have a great week everybody, take care.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Everybody, take care.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, everybody that's wrap on another episode of the podcast. Thanks so much for spending your time with us. We truly enjoy spending part of our week with you. As always, Andy and I enjoyed getting into this topic. I have a tiny little favor to ask, actually two of them, one is if you can go to wherever you source your podcast from and hit the review button and leave us a review, we love hearing your feedback and knowing what you think of the podcast. And number two, if you haven't already hit the subscribe button. Thanks so much for listening guys, we'll see you soon.
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