Frustrated With Breaks… And Not Taking Breaks

A practice manager is frustrated by team members delaying lunches and taking disruptive trips to the breakroom, which leaves the afternoon understaffed and creates tension among the senior team. In this episode of the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Andi Davison tackle a challenging mailbag question: how to manage staff taking breaks, ordering food, and maintaining workflow. Dr. Roark and Andi break down how to approach this situation from a place of curiosity and empathy, exploring the reasons behind these behaviors while still maintaining boundaries and fairness. They share strategies on addressing break policies, fostering a positive work environment, and ensuring everyone feels supported while keeping operations running smoothly.

Andi Davison has been on the wild ride of veterinary medicine since 2001, having started as a vet tech and eventually becoming the veterinary care manager at the University of Florida's large animal hospital. Alongside her veterinarian husband, Dr. Mike Davison, she opened Davison Veterinary Medicine, serving mixed-animal clients for nine years. Now, as a Positive Change Agent with Flourish Veterinary Consulting, Andi is committed to helping veterinary professionals thrive, drawing on her extensive experience to promote positive change in the industry.

Tune in to learn how you can create a healthier work environment by approaching conflicts with kindness and setting clear, manageable expectations for your team!

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Episode Transcript

Dr. Andy Roark: Hey everybody, I am Dr. Andy Roark and this is the Uncharted Podcast. Guys, I got a special episode for you today. I am here with Andi Davison, and we're taking a question from the mailbag. Andi is a friend of mine, and she is speaking at our GSD virtual conference coming up. And we have a question from the mailbag about people being late taking lunches and taking these sort of frequent trips to the break room to get food and things like that.

So there's people who are taking breaks that maybe they shouldn't. There's people who are not taking their breaks when they should and lunch breaks are backing up and then we're not being staffed appropriately for the afternoon. And how rigid should we be about these things? I don't want to be a, I don't want to be a tyrant and at the same time I'm getting pretty irritated and I think the rest of the team's getting irritated too.

What do we do? It's all about time management and getting people To work when they should and to not work when they shouldn't. I think you'll enjoy this. Let's get into it 

Dr. Andy Roark: And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and I am here with the one and only Andi Davison. How are you today?

Andi Davison: I am so good. Thank you for asking. 

Dr. Andy Roark: I love having you on the podcast. You're one of those people who makes me feel good when I talk to you. I like to talk to you because I know that I'm gonna leave the conversation with a smile on my face, just feeling good about myself and the world.

And so you just, you have that power. I think we all hopefully know that person who just makes us feel good, who kind of radiates when they come into the room, and I I think you're one of those people, and so, anyway, I love getting to spend time with you.

Andi Davison: That's super kind. Thanks.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh well, it's true, for those who don't know you, you are a credentialed veterinary technician. You are also a Positive Change Agent over at Flourish. Do you want to talk for a second about what that means? Like what you do at Flourish?

Andi Davison: Oh yeah, absolutely. So over at Flourish I am a full time positive change agent and we are basically a consulting company in the veterinary wellbeing space. And so what we do over at Flourish as a team is we basically take the science of human thriving and we translate it into things that make sense to veterinary professionals and things that veterinary professionals can implement into their lives every day so that we can thrive at work instead of just survive our work every day because I know that is so possible and I want to be a source of support for that out in the vet community

Dr. Andy Roark: On October 23rd, you are going to be speaking at the Uncharted Get Stuff Done as we'll just call it for right now. You are doing a keynote on resilience building resilience for your team and for yourself, and then you're doing a workshop. Tell me a little bit about your workshop.

Andi Davison: Oh, the workshop is going to be fantastic. It is focused around setting and accomplishing meaningful professional goals. And I love it because not only is it engaging and is it's interactive, but we all have goals. We all have professional goals. We all have things that we want to accomplish and chances are we've all,

tried to accomplish things before and haven't been super successful at it. Why is that? And what can we do differently? And how can we set ourselves up for success so that we can accomplish the things that we really, you know, that are really important to us. And so this workshop is focused on that and it's really gonna, you know, we're going to talk a lot about the science behind goal setting and we're going to dig really pretty deep into what that looks like and what that looks like for you as an individual and how to take that science and create a plan for yourself.

So what can I do to make sure that I don't have a lot of stress? That will set you up for success, no matter what the goal is that you're looking to accomplish.

Dr. Andy Roark: That's the GSD conference is a virtual conference. It is on October the 23rd. It is just, it's one day you guys check it out at unchartedvet.com. I'll put a link in the show notes, but it is our whole one day conference on how to actually just get stuff done. And so anyway, so Andi will be there for that.

It's going to be a good time. Andy, I got a question in the mailbag that I kind of want to run through and break down with you. You okay with that? Sure.

Andi Davison: Yeah. Let's do it.

Dr. Andy Roark: We got a letter. I love this letter. It says, Hey podcast team, I could really use some advice on managing breaks and food delivery at my practice. Here's what's going on. So when they said food delivery, I was like, is this a staff meeting question? It's not here's what's going on is, and it's driving me a bit nuts when I ask someone to go on break, they often respond with, oh, I have to order my lunch.

This makes me irrationally annoyed because I bring my lunch every day and I expect others to be a bit more prepared. Sometimes I have people that need to get something done before they go, but that something turns making all of the lunches and the early afternoon appointments late. So, the first person doesn't go to lunch, cause they gotta get this thing done first, and then they're taking their lunch break, and the other people are waiting for them to come back, and then everything ends up running late.

On top of that, I have three younger team members who wait for each other to arrive, which varies from 7 to 9 a. m., before ordering DoorDash breakfast or coffee, they do this while on the clock. Once the food arrives, they leave it in the break room, but they keep going back and forth to eat between their duties.

This behavior is really disruptive and feels unfair to the other team members. I'm trying to pick my battles, but this situation is particularly challenging. I don't want to come off as too strict, but they bend the rules every chance they get, and I don't see their behavior and they don't see their behavior as problematic.

My senior team members are also annoyed by this. Am I too strict to create policies on food delivery and eating snacking during work? How do you manage breaks effectively otherwise? All right, Andy, that is the question. 

Andi Davison: Such a good question. 

Dr. Andy Roark: It is a great question. 

Andi Davison: Right? 

Dr. Andy Roark: Let’s break this down Uncharted style.

Let's start with headspace. The group that's going in and out of the break room and just like continuously it's like, you know we're just dipping in here and grabbing something. It's not disruptive but it is and it like it's annoying and it's like it's the little things about like I can't help you I've got my hands are full and the walking, you know, it's one thing if you really walked in there grabbed a thing and walked back out but you don't you walk in there and then you have to get the plate out or you know Wash your hands or do what and just it's kind of these constant little distractions and if you do them all the time, they really they do add up and people get irritated. Especially when you're kind of having a rolling brunch and they're like I haven't gotten to pee because I'm holding these pets and trying to get this work done and when I look around for you, it's the inopportune time that you're not in the room because you're on your way to or from the break room. And I totally get it. So let's break this down the Uncharted style and let's just start with headspace here. If you're this person Andi, where would you try to get yourself emotionally? What– philosophically how would you look at this problem?

Andi Davison: issue, because I don't know if it's a problem, but issue is so important because for this particular manager it's going to be critical in my mind, for them to really tap into their curiosity. Because you know, jumping to, you know, Emotions, jumping to conclusions, making assumptions, isn't going to serve this person very well.

And to really kind of slow down for a second and adopt a mindset of curiosity, I think is going to be really helpful for everybody. You know, kind of. Okay, so this is happening. Why is it happening? I would love to understand more about why it's so important for these particular staff members to wait for each other to arrive before they order their coffee.

Why does this person feel the need to get whatever it is done before they place their door down shorter? And just really, want to know, like genuinely be curious about that. And I think that alone is going to open up some doors and start a really valuable conversation. That's going to lead towards a little bit more productive solution to what's going on there. 

Dr. Andy Roark: I think you're, I think you're spot on with this as far as the why. It's easy for me to say, hey, look. I know you feel like you need to get something done before you go on lunch break, but then it sets everybody back, and I need you just to go on lunch, don't know what pressures are being put on that person.

There's nothing more demoralizing than having the manager say to you, you need to leave, and having the doctor say, don't you dare leave. Like, that's really not fair, and I see that, I totally see that. In order to get, um, people, especially support staff, out the door You need doctor support to get them out Otherwise, they really trapped between the devil and the deep blue sea. I've seen that. I have seen that many times. And so, I think that your start with curiosity is absolutely healthy and fair. We always talk about having safe conversations, so, like, I know that this irritates our writer, and when you're irritated is the worst time to have the conversation.

The classic management strategy I see is, I'm gonna let this behavior go until I'm having a bad day, and it happens, and then I'm going to snap and have the conversation, and I'm like, that's a terrible idea. 

I see all the time. So, S is, can you sit next to this person?

Can you smile at them? A is assume good intent. hey, let's assume that these, the young staffers in the morning are, let's say that they're, what is the best possible intentions they have?

They're trying to be inclusive of each other. the people who are staying late to get one more thing done before they go to lunch, they're probably trying to help the pets. They're probably trying to help the clients, the doctors, the practice. They're probably trying to do what is most valuable in the moment to support our values, which are things like providing compassionate care and things like that.

And so, it helps me to go, okay, this person is probably trying hard, they probably just don't understand the ramifications or the fallouts of, you know, of what this behavior is doing. F is, has this person been set up to fail? Which is, Have we told them this is not acceptable or have they, have we communicated the frustration that we're feeling or things like that?

What here is my fault is like, can I own any part of this? If I didn't tell them that this wasn't okay and instead I told them, yeah, sure, we're, you guys can have food in the break room, then I kind of set them up to fail. It's kind of my fault. If I can own that, it's going to make the conversation easier.

And the last thing is end result. And this is, I think, something that I think is really sort of philosophy and something to sit with a little bit is. What do you want the final outcome to be? Is it that no one eats other than when they are clocked out and out? That's okay. Is that really what you want?

Or is it just that we've gone too far and we need to swing back and there need to be some parameters, you know what I mean? And I don't know what the answer is. You really kind of have to look at your culture and your people and and the why and how this is happening. But I think before I talk to them, I should at least know what's going to make me happy.

Because if the only thing that's going to make me happy is, you need to be off the clock if you're going to go and have a break and eat, then I should not go in there and be like, I don't know guys, you feel like just doing less of this? Like, don't let them do something that you're still going to be mad about.

That's not fair to them.

Andi Davison: That's a great, that's a great sort of scaffold to literally wrap your head around, right? To help you get into that mindset, mind space. And in listening to you talk, something that really stood out to me there, Andy, is that curiosity fits into all of those. It absolutely fits into all of those. And the one that I love and the one that I'm going to pull out is the idea of assumptions.

Because you're right, like, okay, well, we need to make positive assumptions. We need to make better assumptions. And the word assumptions is something that we as human beings are going to do no matter what. Whether or sometimes we'll make negative assumptions. I mean, we're human, right?

The key with it and where the magic comes in is to test those assumptions. And that's where curiosity happens. So you can go, gosh, you know, I'm sure that you're just trying to get one more thing done so that you can help out the patient before you go on lunch. Are they? I don't know. Let's ask them about it.

You know, it really seems like. This is what's happening. Do I have that right? And play with that curiosity so that you can take those assumptions and understand them and understand if you're correct and give that other person the chance to go, Yeah, you got it. Or no, I actually have a totally different reason as to why I need to get that done. And then you can understand more. And I think that curiosity will really play down across the board. 

Dr. Andy Roark: One, one more part of the curiosity thing I want to put forward too is, you know, the way this is written, I often have to check and see if other people are as affected by this thing as I imagine they are. So, There are things that are my pet peeves that other people do not care about, you know?

 And I will go, golly, this is I assume everyone else thinks, I'm trying to think of a good example, but it's things like, I don't know, um, imagine, imagine there's a radio station on that you just do not like. It's like, oh, country mornings. Country mornings are the worst. all like. no, we're kind of, we're at least neutral.

Kind of find 'em like, okay, this is just an Andy thing And I'm just gonna cope with it, you know? Or, um, maybe nobody else care. Maybe nobody else cares that they're dipping out and grabbing food. Maybe it's not as big a deal as I think it is. Maybe just by weird random chance. I am very aware of every time they go in there, and I assume it's happening a lot more, but maybe I'm seeing every single time and there's not more than what I'm actually seeing.

I don't know. So I think that curiosity into, Hey is this a thing, or or am I making it a thing? I think you have to be careful about how you ask that, and hopefully you have some trusted confidants where you can say, Is this a thing I'm seeing? And it feels like a lot to me, but I just wanted to touch base with you guys, have you noticed this?

And see what they say if they're like, oh yes, it is a problem, it is a headache. I go, great, I, the scenery has been validated, and now I agree that this is a battle worth fighting. If no one else seems to see the issue. Maybe it's just me. And that might not mean that I won't have the conversation, but it might change how I have the conversation. it might change the stakes of the conversation. Things like that. But I've definitely seen people have conversations and they say, Everyone is upset about this. And the truth is one else was upset about it. And you end up kind of, when the rest of the team comes together and says, No, we were all fine with it.

You end up kind of looking like, uh, more of a bad guy than you needed to.

Andi Davison: Yep. 

Dr. Andy Roark: The last part for Headspace for me, and I think it comes down to the question of, Am I being too strict on policies? You know, how do you do these things? The last piece I'll throw in for Headspace is the old question of what is kind. And this has guided me through a lot of hard conversations. And I would say to this person, they're doing a thing and it's making you mad. And, let's say, it's frustrating the doctors and the other staff. Do you think it is kind to these people to not say anything to them and let them continue down this path that is causing increasing resentment from the people around them?

Is that kind to them? I would say probably not. It's definitely not kind to them to let them keep doing something that's making me more and more resentful and that is going to get them on my bad side and, you know, limit their opportunities to do other things or their usefulness in my eyes to the practice.

Because I didn't tell them, Hey, you're doing a thing I don't like. I think if I was doing something that the boss didn't like, I would really hope that they would say something rather than just stew in their office about Andy and how big a jerk he is and how useless he is. Like, for goodness sakes, like, I don't want that.

Why don't you, why didn't you say something to me? And so, I think that's the big thing for me here is what is kind. And so I think we've, I think we've set Headspace up pretty darn well as far as assuming good intent. Investigate, investigate. Is this a big deal to other people or just to me? And then, we'll see.

What's going on with these people? Why are they feeling compelled to get one more thing done? What types of things are they staying to do? Do they not understand the impact of waiting until nine o'clock and then going in and out of the break room? Like what, let's try to figure all these sorts of things out.

And then we're gonna have a whole lot more clarity about why this is happening. and then I think we'll be able to have a conversation with them. That's not mean. It's honest and it's kind. Uh, and it's about trying to set them up for and make sure that they're seen as a positive force in the practice and that they're not frustrating in ways that they weren't even aware that they were doing.

Andi Davison: J ust to kind of it out really think that it's key to kind of think about that.  And your end comment about, is it kind, right? To let them continue on doing this, frustrating people, trouble.

What does that look like? And how kind is that to the team? And how kind is that to, um, one another? And kind of jumping off of that, considering the concept of conflict and working conflict into that.

Because nobody wants conflict. Nobody enjoys having conflict. Nobody wants any of that. And sometimes it's kinder to have that difficult conversation, and sometimes it's kinder to sort of lay that out and encourage conflict so that you can work through that together in a curious way in order to better support everybody in the team in a way that is going to set them up for success.

And I think that if as a manager or as a, as a leader, you are able to kind of get into that headspace, you will see this as an opportunity. As opposed to a problem or an issue or an eye roll, right? Oh my God, they're doing it again. You're going to see this as an opportunity to support them and really help the team be more cohesive.

Dr. Andy Roark: I completely agree. You wanna, um, you wanna take a break and then come back and we'll do some action steps here? 

Andi Davison: Yeah, sure.

Stephanie Goss: Hey, are you someone in your practice who likes to Get Shit Done while we've got the online event for you? It is happening October 23rd, And it is an online event And that is our Uncharted, Get Shit Done. 

And this year I'm super excited because we have some new faces. Coming to share their experience and information with us. We have got the amazing and brilliant Andi Davidson. she is a technician. She works with flourish, veterinary consulting, and our friend, Josh Vaisman. 

And she is going to be doing our general session for GSD. She's going to be talking about rock star resilience from burnout to brilliance. We've got communication skills and tough conversations with another technician, Rebecca Rose. We have got Andi back for a workshop on crafting and achieving meaningful goals in practice. 

We have got our friends, Jen Quamen and Ryan Smith. Jen as a doctor and her partner, Ryan is a professional coach and they are going to be talking about customer service and the customer service experience triangle. I cannot wait for all of this amazing content that all has to do with getting shit done in our practices. 

If you haven't yet head over to uncharted vet.com forward slash G S D that's G for Get. S for shit. D for done. She had done and check out all the information about how you can register and join us in October.

Dr. Andy Roark: Let's talk about action steps. I want to put the first one on the table. I think you already said very clearly. I think investigate has to be your first action step. I think you need to just without being accusatory. We just need to talk to people and kind of figure out. Hey, I noticed that you didn't get out for lunch until 11:30, and you're scheduled to get out at 11 yesterday.

What, what happened? And this is, this is not the big conversation. It's not a showdown. When I'm investigating, I want to make sure I speak in specifics. Not, hey, I notice you're never leaving for lunch on time. What's up with that? It's much better if I can say to someone, hey. Earlier today, I saw you didn't get out for lunch.

Yes, you clocked out at 11. 30 instead of 11. What's going on? Just as far as getting out the door. I want to make sure you guys are getting out the door on time for your breaks, but there's clearly there's things that sort of trip people up. What, what's going on? What's keeping you in the building?

And that's it. Not accusatory anything. Information gathering up front. Remember, keep it low stakes. This is not punitive. They may say something really awful, like, I just didn't feel like going. And that may make your blood boil. This is not the time to have the correction conversation. This is the time to have the information gathering conversation. And so just gather the information. Great. I just wanted to understand, make sure I had all the information. Talk to your people. Don't make any changes. Don't make any corrections until you get the story straight. And then, again, figure out, is this really a big deal or is this in my own mind?

And then, after you've done your investigation, then we can start to move forward. 

Andi Davison: Yeah, and I think too in that sort of stage in the game, it's really important to bring some nice, big, vague, curious questions, right? So being specific about what's going on is super important. But that question, that why is this happening, what's going on with that question to me really needs to be vague.

And it needs to be a big, broad, curious question that invites the other person to share whatever is going on with them. So for me that could sound something like, You said, you know, Hey, you were supposed to head out for lunch at 1130 and I noticed that you didn't get out until noon. Help me understand what was holding you back and let them go, right?

And be quiet. There's the hard part. Oh, there's the hardest part is to ask that one big question and then wait and let them answer it and listen to whatever it is that they're going to say. Gosh, you know, I really wanted to get, I don't know, this fecal done real quick because I knew that this dog was going home and I wanted to make sure we had the meds to go.

And that was important to me because this dog belongs to Mrs. Blah, blah, blah, whatever that is. Great. Listen to them. And then you get to come back and go, you know, I can tell that it's really important to you that we have the meds ready to go for the dogs when they're ready to discharge. 

And that means a lot because that helps our our flow, you know, that helps our flow go. And we need to figure out a way to make sure that everybody gets their lunch on time. What do you think about that?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah,

I love that. I do agree. I love those big questions, even one that I was thinking there of when you ask and say What you know, what was going on?

What was holding you back? And they said well, you know I had to get this fecal done and things like that. I think my next question will be something along the lines of tell me about that and getting out. Do you feel like you're supported in being able to put tasks like that down? Or do you feel like if you don't do them, they're not going to get done?

And what I'm really digging for there is, has this person been set up to fail? And I think that that's an excellent response is, I knew the client was waiting, I wanted to get this done. In my mind, we have got to get our practice running so that we can tag people out. And again, now we're sort of getting into the business part more than the communication part.

For me, especially if you're having people backing up, we have got to take breaks seriously. Now, in old school vet medicine, breaks just kind of happen. You know what I mean? And we hope that we got lunch. It's not that way anymore. I'm glad it's not that way anymore. But, people getting out for breaks and getting out for lunch, that should be chiseled into stone today.

That's the modern workplace. That's how we take care of people. And we can't have people not getting out and then backing other people up into the afternoon appointments. These things really do have to happen. It's not fair to our staff to say, I'm not going to provide you with support to get you out of the building, but I'm going to hold you accountable to not being out of the building on time. That's not fair, and that's them being set up to fail. And so I really want to understand, are you not leaving because you don't feel supported? Or you don't know that handing off is an option? Or are you not leaving?

Because you really can't hand off, and there's not, we're not staffed for it, or the doctors are not allowing that to happen. Not to villainize anyone, but I, I really do have to understand what, what is actually happening here, what is perception, and what is reality. And so I, I, those big questions are really important.

Not just, why did you make this choice, but then, what is true here, what is an assumption this person is making, and what is a systems problem? That is setting this person up to fail.

Andi Davison: That. That's key. That's key for this person to remember when they're going into that conversation, right? Because, gosh, you know, this is what I'm seeing. Help me understand. There's that curiosity. Help me understand more about why this is happening. Why are you not getting out to lunch on time? And then, oh, it's because I want to get these fecals done.

Okay. If we were to help you get out to lunch on time, what would you need in order for that to happen? And listen to what they had to say, right? Because then you don't have to go through your list of assumptions of, oh gosh, is it because this? Is it because that? Is it because this? Is it because that?

They know what's holding them back. They know they're supposed to go to lunch at 11 and they're not going till 11:30, right? They know the reason. And when we can say, gosh, you know, What would you need in order to get out to lunch on time? They know. And then it's great. And then we get to be quiet again, which is super hard, and listen to whatever it is they have to say. 

And then we can support them in whatever that is. And then not only are we being curious as a manager and as a leader, we are listening to our team. They feel heard. They feel like they belong and that they matter because we are giving them that opportunity to be a part of the conversation.

Dr. Andy Roark: I'm gonna try not to have this conversation in the office. I, I'll just say that. This is one of those conversations that the way we frame it can dictate how intense it feels for the staff member. I think if I call a staff member into my office and say, Hey, I noticed you didn't leave until 11:30.

That feels much heavier than I want it to feel, and I don't know how to tone it down if I'm calling them into the office. I really, again, I'm not saying I wouldn't do it, I'm not saying that that's not what needs to happen based on the clinic or whatever, where people are. I really would like to catch this person in the hallway kind of by themselves, not in front of other people, but just to say, Hey while I'm seeing ya, I got a quick, I, I wanted to ask you about something just real quick.

And I'm going to try to do it in a non threatening, sort of neutral environment. Something that's not going to make them feel like they're getting called in and sat down to ask a heavy question. And I just really feel like trying to keep it light and just gather the information and not something that's scary.

I think that's really important. And again, every client's a little bit different about what kind of space we have. But I would really like to try to make this super casual. It's not a sit down 20 minute meeting. It's just, Hey, you know, if you have a second, can we, can we talk to this? Help me understand what's kind of what's going on just so I know something like that.

Do you agree with that? Or am I making this too informal?

Andi Davison: No, I actually do agree with that. And that brings up a question that I have for you. So if you were in a clinic and the owner of the clinic came up to you and they said one of two things. The first thing, Hey Andy, I need to see you in my office right now. The second thing, Hey, Andy, I need to talk to you about something sometime in the next hour.

When would be good for you? Which of those two invitations are going to make you feel like you have been invited into the conversation and that your opinion and that your presence there matters.

Dr. Andy Roark: I think in both cases, my opinion and my present feel like they matter. But also, I do feel like in both of those cases, I'll be honest, my blood pressure went up. In both of those cases, I've come to my office now, or in the next ten minutes. I'm like, oh, both of these are bad. Both of these feel bad and scary to me.

Andi Davison: Well, it's principal's office, right? Like I need to talk to you. Okay, so if both of those make your blood pressure go up, what would help? Because I honestly, I have this conversation a lot and I had it with a group just this last weekend about the getting called to the principal's office, right? And like, everybody freaks out because they assume that it's something terrible and bad because we have no idea what it's about.

And it was funny. It's fascinating because some people want to know what it's about. They want to know, hey, when you got, when you've got time, maybe in the next hour, I'd love to talk about lunches. Just pop by my office and we can talk about that. Or hey, we need to talk about lunches. Are you free right now?

Just that, hey, we need to talk about this can sometimes alleviate that, oh God, what's going to happen? You know, I'm going to get yelled at. What's going to, what's going on? And like, does that resonate with you too?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, it's definitely the existential dread is part of it. I think you can make it even softer if you say, Hey I'm thinking on how to get people out for lunch on time and I wanted to pick your brain. Do you have time to stop by or can you stop by as something I'm working on today? Can you stop by before the end of the day just to share your share your thoughts?

And and that's not none of that is untrue. I am Interested in getting people out for lunches on time, but that in a way i'm sharing what that is and then also Making it, presenting it in a way where I'm saying, I'm going to talk to other people, and I am going to talk to other people. And so even that, I think sharing with them what I'm talking about, I think that makes it much I think that that makes it less scary.

Andi Davison: It's more invitational all the way around, right? You feel like you're being welcomed into the conversation as opposed to dragged in kicking and screaming.

Dr. Andy Roark: I love the phrase I'd like to get your thoughts on I'm gathering information on, I, hey, I'm getting my thoughts straight about this. Hey, I really want to try to support the team in this way, and I'm trying to get input from, sort of, key members of the staff or from people I know would understand something like that.

But I kind of tell him what I'm what I'm working on, but not enough. Hey, I want to talk to you about the fact that you were 30 minutes late leaving for lunch today.

Andi Davison: Right.

Dr. Andy Roark: And it's just that it's a subtle difference, but I do think it makes a big difference. I think the classic, Can you come to my office? I need to talk to you or can you come in tomorrow first thing so we can talk?

I think that is really hard for a lot of people. I think people who are prone to being anxious or worrying, I think they really hate that and so I try to give them a bit of a heads up about This is the problem. I'm trying to solve and I was wondering if you could talk with me about it.

Andi Davison: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll tell you, I'm going to be a little vulnerable here. I had a situation like that happen back in the days of managing a technician team and baby leader, like ages ago, right? And I needed to talk to a staff member, right? About something that was not a comfortable conversation.

It was a difficult conversation. And I made that mistake. Hey, I'd like to talk to you in my office tomorrow morning. And that poor staff member worried and worried and the whole team worried about it. And I thought, no gosh, you know, I'm letting her know it's, it's, she's can plan it. And looking back on that, I could have done that so differently. And it's something that if I could change it, I would. Easing that anxiety by saying something like, Hey, you know, I'd really like to talk to you about lunches. I've got some ideas. I'd like to hear your input. You know, what are your thoughts on this? Maybe we could talk about it that more tomorrow morning.

That would have been so much more productive for me to do as a manager. When I had to have that talk with her. And so that I'm so glad you brought that up because it's key. It's really important to remember how much everybody else is going to freak out about being called into the manager's office and to do it in a way that is inviting and is curious and sets them up for success.

Dr. Andy Roark: You know the other way that you take the edge off of this and take that fear away is however you're going to deliver this conversation, uh, if it's negative, you should be delivering conversations that are positive in the same way. And so, think about it like this. If I say, Hey I'm doing some stuff, uh, and I need to get your insight.

Can you stop by my office before you leave? And they say, Oh my gosh. And then they go in and you say, Hey, can no one is better than you at doing this particular thing, and I'm really trying to figure out how to get the rest of the staff to kind of take up these behaviors. Help me understand, how did you learn to do this thing that you're doing, whatever it is?

Would you be willing to help me do some training with the staff, things like that? Just, again, I really love what you're doing. Do you have advice? How do you think other people are struggling? Do you see pitfalls that are tripping other people up? I just want to get your insight on this. Boy, after getting asked to stop by to help me brainstorm a thing a couple of times and feeling really valued and feeling praised or say, Hey, can you stop by?

Listen, I just wanted to tell you, I saw you talk to Mrs. Jones this morning and the compassion that I heard in your words was really moving. And I just, I was so proud to have you. On our team when I heard you talking, you know, it was just Absolutely excellent. And I just want to tell you that I was I was proud.

Anyway I just want to say thanks a lot because that was I thought that was wonderful, you know giving people that type of positive feedback. One, it's just great management strategy. It's, it's not, I hate saying management strategy makes it feel cheap. It's not, it's about creating a great environment.

I always say, you know, I, I really believe that people are simple animals. And I, I, I say that. No degrees associated with this, anything. But a lot of times what we know about training dogs and cats, it's the same thing as the experience that we create for people. 

And so I would not take my dog into the same room only to trim his toenails. Because he would hate that room. You would see it very quickly. You know what I mean? If you have a dog who hates having their nails trimmed, the only reason they go into this guest bedroom is to get their nails trimmed. How long is it going to take before they start locking their legs and sitting down and doing the donkey stance to not be dragged into that room?

It's not going to take very long. And people are no different, like if the only reason they come into your office is to hear bad news, or to answer hard questions, at a, caveman stone age level, they're going to start panicking real fast. And just the easiest way is to not let that happen.

It's to make sure that we're engaging with people in positive ways, the same way we're going to engage with them when we have harder conversations. But it is to stop that wind up of I'm going into the nail trim room. I don't want that, but you have to kind of work your way out of that. And that means pulling people aside, having conversations with them when things are good and, you know, and filling their cup way more often than you have to drain it out.

Andi Davison: I often think of that concept as building social capital, right? So you're putting money in the bank when you have the opportunity to do that. The key is that you find genuine reasons to do that, right? Like don't, don't be all weird and like make stuff up and be superficial about it. Find genuine reasons.

It won't be hard, I promise, right? But, find the opportunity to deposit money in the piggy bank so that you build up social capital with this person. And then that way when you have to have a little bit more of a difficult conversation, when you have to make a deduction from that piggy bank, you're not at a zero balance.

You still have a little bit of money in the bank. And that person knows that, you know what, Dr. Andy knows that I'm good with clients. He's pointed it out more than once. He really appreciates me because he tells me that. So that when you have to go in and have a conversation that's like, hey, you know, we need to talk about trying to get out on lunch on time.

It's not like a total connection relationship cohesion killer because you've already got that social capital with the team and with that person so that they know where you're coming from. And it's way more productive that way.

Dr. Andy Roark: I think the next action step for me, and we talked about this before, if required we might have to talk to the doctors to get buy in. And this is around, this is around breaks and lunch. The number one reason I see support staff not getting to their breaks or not getting to their lunch is they're feeling pressure, whether it's real or perceived.

They're feeling pressure that they need to finish up what they're doing and just handing something off and leaving is not acceptable. And so the first people I have to get to buy into this is the doctors. And I have to talk to them and say, Guys, we are required to give these people their breaks.

We want them to have their breaks. It's something that is really, really important if we have enough employees that if they don't get their breaks on time, they get backed up and then everything backs up and then you guys end up without help in the afternoon. And I don't want that. And so I am going to start pushing the staff to take their breaks and to get out for lunch on time.

I desperately am going to need your support and getting them out the door. Which means if they're scheduled for lunch, in my dream world, you would not allow them to keep working. You would tell them at the top of the hour, I need you to leave. And say, can you support me in that? What are your concerns and do the same thing with the doctors and they're gonna say well What if this happens and there might be some caveats, but let's make them feel heard and let's figure out what it what is possible. But I think my next step is if it comes to getting the staff out on time The number one hurdle is not necessarily doctors wanting to keep them the doctors either not knowing that's going on or that that's a big deal or the doctors are totally supportive, there is a perception from the staff that we're letting the doctors down if we leave.

But again, I'm going to need the doctor's buy-in in all of those cases to help correct that perception of the staff. I want to talk to the doctors before we have the conversation at large, because I don't want the doctors to undermine me in front of the team.

Andi Davison: Absolutely. And I think a really effective way to do that is to pull on a common goal, right? It's easy to do, especially in Vet Med, because We have the amazing opportunity to provide care to animals, right? And we want to do what we can to always provide the best care to our patients. And that's a beautiful goal to build upon.

You know, it's, I know that it's important to all of us that we provide the best care possible to our community of animals. And in order to do that, we need to function as a team in a way where we can be smooth, right? Like a smooth machine. And I know that we all want to get there. And in order to do that, we're going to need to figure out a way where everybody can get a lunch and get a break and figure out what that can look like.

If you can start that conversation, even with the doctors, because they're, they're in on that goal. Everybody's that we're all the whole community is in on that goal to say, Hey, you know, we all want this common thing. How can we adjust the lunch problem or break issues or whatever, in order to help facilitate that same goal.

What would that look like? And that's a beautiful way to start a conversation like that. To get buy-in from everybody because they're really gonna buy in on a goal that everybody can believe in and get behind.

Dr. Andy Roark: I agree. I think for my next action step, there's a fork in the road here. And the question is, do we talk to the team or do we talk to individuals? And people kind of have their favorites. I see a lot of people who hold team meetings because they don't like conflict. And so, they would much rather have a team meeting than to say to the two people that are doing a behavior, Hey, I need you to, I need you to change your behavior, or hey, I need you to work with me on these things.

If, in the case of the young people who are waiting and then ordering DoorDash and then dipping in and out, I don't think you need to have a team meeting unless there's other things going on other people are doing this I don't think you need to have a team meeting I think you need to pull those three people aside and compassionately talk to them.

Just say guys I love you. I'm want to support you. You know, I I want you. I want you guys to to enjoy being here. I want you to I want you to be fed all those things are important. This is what's happening and this is this is this is your action This is the impact the action is having on the rest of the team and that's why we need to make some changes.

And so I would either talk to them, in the case of the people getting out for breaks and lunches and things backing up, that's probably a whole team conversation, because there's so many people that are involved in that, most likely, everybody probably needs to hear the same thing. So, I'm gonna pick my path of is this a one on one or, or two or three people and me just talking things through, or is this a whole team meeting?

But if it's a whole team meeting, it's what I call the reset meeting, where I want to bring the gang together. I want to explain to them what the problem is, and I want to frame it up in terms of the problem for the team. I don't want to say, You guys are not getting out on time and it's causing things to back up and it's making the afternoon a mess.

I want to say, It's important to me that you guys get your breaks. And that they're not all squished together and that you're not feeling guilty when you're going to take your lunch break because you're leaving chaos behind. And you know that appointments are starting and all those things are important to me and I want us to be that type of place and I want to support you guys in getting what you need.

And so, I need to talk with you guys about how we're going to get people out on time for breaks and for lunches so they don't back up into the afternoon. I call it a reset meeting because everybody needs to hear it. And I give amnesty at this meeting, right? No one's going to get in trouble. I'm not bringing up anything negative from the past.

It's not about people finding one more thing. It's just let's decide how we can go forward together. Let's commit to making this happen together. And I'm really gonna try to get buy-in. I'm really happy to have a conversation about what this looks like logistically. How, how do we actually make this happen?

I'd love to use their ideas to make this happen. But, everything before this, I'm, we're gonna let go. After this, I'm going to start being much more attentive about when people aren't getting breaks, and I'm going to say something early. And so that's my thing, is starting to hold people accountable without letting them know, hey, we're taking this seriously now.

To me, that's often frustrating and it's kind of playing whack a mole. It's better just to tell everybody this is, we're changing this, we're fixing this, and if you're not getting out on time, I'm going to start, I'm going to ask you what happened when you get back, and just, just know that, because I really want to be on top of this, and so they know what's coming, expectations have been reset. All of those things are the benefits of sort of this reset meeting, and that's why I call it that, is just sort of to reset how we work together in the end.

The new order is going forward, and we're going to restart with sort of holding people accountable as far as not just ignoring it when people leave a half an hour late. We're going to start checking in, and just very gently, I mean, people are getting written up or they're getting in trouble, but I'm going to say something because now I'm paying attention, and you know I'm paying attention.

Andi Davison: Being able to reset those expectations I think is key, right? To go, hey, okay, now let's get all on the same page. Because then you're, you're again, you're bringing out that curiosity that, gosh, did, did everybody know that this was a thing? Let's make sure that everybody knows this is a thing. Which is why having everybody in the same meeting is really valuable because then they're all there, everybody's part of the conversation, everybody knows the words that were said, and everybody understands the expectations, and I think you touched on an important kind of concept there with laying out what the expectations are so that everybody can be held accountable.

And I think it's important that the, you know, leadership and management be a part of that as well. How are we holding the team accountable to be able to get out and have their breaks on time? And how is leadership being held accountable because it's a two way street, right? It's not all, well, you gotta do what you got to do.

And I'm going to make sure to get after you next time I notice because now we've reset everything. That's great. But what's going to happen if I don't hold up my side of the deal? How are we both going to hold each other accountable for those expectations? And that's a great opportunity to have that conversation, right?

When everybody's in the room together in the reset meeting.

Dr. Andy Roark: Absolutely. And you're spot on too in that a lot of times the accountability part is not for the technician. That's not getting out on time. It's for the veterinarian that continuously keeps the techs and seems daily, whoever is scheduled with them is not getting to take their lunch break on time.

And the person after is not. And very often the person who's not getting to leave is not the problem child. It's the doctor problem child that's that's holding that person there. But again, we need to have this conversation. We need to not only put it on the support staff to leave on time. We need to put it on to the doctors and the managing staff to support them in getting out on time.

And we really need to work together and collaborate on this. The last thing I would say, I've touched on this before, but I would say it again. It's whenever we want to do a reset meeting like this or start talking about these changes, remember to start with why. Remember to explain why we want to make these changes.

Remember to frame it in terms of the things that the staff cares about and that you care about sort of emotionally. I like to frame these things around patient care. I like to frame them around wellness and taking care of our people and enjoying our work and our clinic culture and things like that.

Don't get sucked into, and I've seen this, don't get sucked into, hey operations is looking at our, at our time cards and says people are not taking breaks and they're supposed to be and so in order to keep corporate happy you need to be taking your breaks. That's wholly unmotivating to people.

It doesn't make them feel cared about. It's not motivating to the doctors. I need to give up my helper, because corporate wants this person to hit this number. And again, I get it. And I understand, like, no, corporate wants to make sure people are getting their breaks. But at some point we really need to convert the language from these are HR boxes we're required to check to guys, this is what it actually means in our practice, in our culture, in our lives and that's why I want to go after it.

It's not about checking a box on the HR sheet. It's about doing what our staff needs in order to enjoy their work and to not burn out and to keep going and to take the best care of our pets possible.

Andi Davison: Absolutely. And as leaders we get to interpret that, right? Like, yes, there are demands from HR and corporate. And as leaders, we get to interpret what that looks like and how that builds our team up and how that creates a better work environment and a more thriving and flourishing place for people to come to work every day.

And we get to interpret it that way. That way, and we get to share it with the team with that type of a reflection so that we can build our curiosity upon that foundation of that big common goal of, you know, we really want to take great care of our community. And we really want to make sure that everybody that walks through this door feels like they are part of the family and they are welcome here with their animal.

And that's something that we can all agree on and then move forward from there. And so, yeah, that's, that's such a, that's such a, that's such a beautiful burden of leadership and management, right. Is being able to interpret some of those things in ways that are truly beneficial for the team in the building and the staff doing the work. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Andi Davison, you are amazing. Thank you so much for being here and talking through this with me. I am so looking forward to working with you on October 23rd at the Uncharted GSD virtual event. Guys, tickets are open and available right now. Grab a spot if you haven't. The best way to do the Uncharted virtual events, just so you guys know, is is bring a couple people from your practice, your leadership team, uh, your team leads, things like that, especially for this one.

It's open across roles. Get your whole leadership team in and jump in, do the workshops, check out Andi's keynote speech, hear it together. And that's going to let you guys all discuss how you do it in your practice. I heard this. You heard that. How do we do this? What do you guys think about that?

And if nothing else, it is so worth the conversations that you guys will have as a leadership team following the event. It's just is the best investment is the way to do it. The practices that send multiple people who, and then go back and sort of circle up afterwards about what they took away.

It is absolutely worth it. These are really affordable events as, as virtual events. They don't, they require minimal time off the floor. Just it's a great opportunity. So Andy, I'm looking forward to work with you there. Guys, thanks for being here today. We will talk to you again soon.

Andi Davison: Bye everybody. See you soon. 

Dr. Andy Roark: And that's what we got guys. Thanks for being here. Andi, thanks for joining us. She is such a, she's such a pleasure to work with. I really enjoyed talking with her guys.

Take care of yourselves, everybody. I'll talk to you later on.