Deteriorating Doctor

This week on the podcast…

This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss are working on a challenge question from the mailbag. A veterinarian wrote in because they have an associate who they thought was a great fit and the team was super excited about when they hired them. A year later and the sparkle seems to have worn off and this associate seems unhappy, anxious and angry a lot of the time. They are micromanaging the team, snapping and sniping at people constantly and this practice owner is worried about this associate. Can this situation be saved? How can the owner help the doctor and what support the team who is super frustrated are all the questions being asked? Let's get into this…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you to our sponsors! To learn more about this week's sponsor, GuardianVets, check out their website HERE.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to role-play on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag!

We want to hear about your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

Upcoming Events – New Conference Dates Announced!

Upcoming events: unchartedvet.com/upcoming-events/

Episode Transcript

This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.

Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss. Got you a second to talk about GuardianVets?

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. What do you want to talk about?

Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed because their phones never stop ringing. I'm sure you hear from these people as well like, “Our caseload is blowing up and the doctors are busy and the phones just don't stop.”

Stephanie Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.

Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip the switch and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk and they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments and give them support and it really is a godsend.

Stephanie Goss:
Pre-pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after-hours call help. But at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that they are offering help during the daytime as well, which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices because everybody is shorthanded. Everybody is drowning in phone calls. And so, we talk about it. We've talked about GuardianVets a lot on the podcast and every time we do, we always get somebody who says, “What is that?”

Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use them help on the phones or up the front desk, check them out. It's guardianvets.com and if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. Check it out, guardianvets.com.

Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I dive into a letter from the mailbag from a doctor who has an associate vet who seems very unhappy, and as a result, they're making life very challenging for the team and they kind of seem to be deteriorating mood-wise, behavior-wise, all of the things. This doctor is looking for some advice on how to handle the situation. This was a fun one, so let's get into it.

Speaker 3:
And now, the Uncharted Podcast!

Andy Roark:
We are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and Stephanie, I am barely breathing Goss. (singing)

Stephanie Goss:
I mean, at the end of the year, it always feels that way. That is not an untrue name right now. I can appreciate that one very much. It is crazy.

Andy Roark:
That's a Thanksgiving song for me. I'm barely breathing and my pants are way too tight. It's like… I can't expand my chest because I ate so much. That's it.

Stephanie Goss:
So funny. How was Thanksgiving with your family?

Andy Roark:
It was good, I think. It was good. We did two Thanksgivings, which is great. Always recommend two Thanksgiving. If I can get in and do Canadian Thanksgiving a month or two ahead, I would do that too. I would do three Thanksgivings if I could. I'm not sure how to make that work, but I'm looking for it. Anyway, it was good. I did the thing with the family and we just rolled with it. And so, I wrote this article that I actually really like a lot and it was this article from this woman who writes cookbooks and she was talking about her Thanksgiving and she was like, “I have taught all of my children and my in-law children how to make these dishes. Everyone has assignments. We have spreadsheets. We review the spreadsheets. We have oven signup times.” They were like, “We do group grocery lists. We have organizational apps that we use to track ingredients for purchasing.” And she's like, “Then, it's total chaos every time.”
I thought that was so funny because she laid down so much work. Every Thanksgiving, her mother sits down and does a postmortem and reviews the dishes. She was like, “Oh, the time that my son's brand-new wife brought a pie that got a B minus was like… This is a tense family time.” And so, she goes through, she says all these things to emphasize how organized she is and then says, “And it's total chaos.” Then she says, “The chaos is the point. The point of this is to forge these memories of everyone crammed into the kitchen together, pushing each other out of the way and stepping on each other. That's what the holiday is and if it's not chaotic then it's not memorable. The chaos is what we remember of that almost forced togetherness and the challenge of trying to make this thing happen, so we have this sort of shared memorable experience.”
Man, I really love that because I think a lot of times people go into the holidays or in other aspects of their life with this idea that it's going to be just this well-oiled machine, and then it's not, and it never is. The sad thing is they feel like a failure. When I lecture a lot of times, I will put up a picture of the Disney princesses and say, “We talk about vet clinics as if this is what we're supposed to be. We're supposed to be these pictures of happy, lovable perfection and everybody's got all their stuff together and everyone's in a beautiful gown and this all looks great, but we're not Disney princesses.”
Then, I'll hit the next slide, and it's The Muppet Show, but we're the freaking Muppet Show. There's yelling. There's drum banging. Someone's riding a bull through the living room. That's what life really is. I think aspiring to be Disney princesses, I think you can aspire as long as you recognize that you are one of the Muppets trying to be a Disney princess and-

Stephanie Goss:
I love it.

Andy Roark:
… [inaudible 00:06:11]. Anyway, all of that to come around to say that's what I've been thinking a lot of was how was my Thanksgiving? It was chaos and I think that that's the point and I'm really happy with it.

Stephanie Goss:
I like it.

Andy Roark:
How about you?

Stephanie Goss:
It was good. It was mellow, it was quiet. The kids and I had some rowdy board games time and there was lots of laughing, which is the best. It was the stress of, it's always this challenge for me because we're getting ready to leave or I'm getting ready to leave to come to Greenville for a Practice Owner's Summit. I was weighing the do I get a tree now and avoid the stress of coming home and being like, “There's two weeks till Christmas, let's go get a tree,” and risk getting to Christmas and the tree is dry and dropping needles everywhere and my house is a wreck, or do I take the trade-off and wait until I come back and then have the last minute panic.
Ultimately, we chose just getting it now. It felt super early and there was nobody out looking for trees yet because it's right after Thanksgiving, but it was great. The house is decorated and we've hit that stage where the kids can do a lot of the work and it's amazing and I take full advantage of it as a parent. I'm like, “You guys go to town,” just going to sit right here.

Andy Roark:
I agree with that. That's the evolution of it along is that the kids, you can throw them into this and it's good for them. It's good for them to feel some ownership of what we do. At some point, I was putting up the Christmas tree, I look around and my daughters are just lounging on the couches and I was like, “What is this?” You are the ones who want this. That came to a screeching halt for them. They slammed head-first into what I call reality and they were put to work.

Stephanie Goss:
I'm like, “You want it? You have to help do the work. I'm not going to do all the work or it just doesn't happen.” We had one year where I was like, “No, if you guys aren't going to do it…” and our tree sat there for several days without anything on it because I was like, “I'm not going to do all this work by myself.”

Andy Roark:
Just a naked tree sitting there.

Stephanie Goss:
That was the one and only time, and ever since, they have been great and they're all about it. We had a great day decorating yesterday. It was good.

Andy Roark:
I imagine a really sad tree. Is it the Charlie Brown special where there's like this tiny little tree, it's got one ornament on it and it bends over.

Stephanie Goss:
I do. That is a good mental picture. No, it is. This year, they chose a big giant nine-foot tree. There was ladders involved this year. I was like, “Okay, all right. This is where we're at.”

Andy Roark:
When you're living in Washington, I expect an impressive evergreen from you.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes, I do. One of the things I love about being here is the availability of fresh ingredients to decorate. We always have the cedar garland and the whole nine yards. It is quite fun. I enjoy it but now it's back to reality because then you sit down at your desk Monday morning and there's just piles of work and hundreds of emails and the pain of taking a long weekend and having some break, but it's good, it's good. It's just the busy time of year.

Andy Roark:
I walked right into that of all the things that I said, “Oh look, we'll do that after the holiday.” They were all just standing and waiting for me, like walking into a circle of bullies who were waiting after school. That's what it felt like for me to come to work.

Stephanie Goss:
But it's all good. I'm excited to come to Greenville and I'm excited to get into some of the work that we've got some good stuff happening and it feels good to be creative. I'm excited about this week's episode. We got a good question from the mailbag and it's funny because there's a time in my career where I could have written this email. I thought it was a great one. It was kind of long, so I'm just going to give us the summary and the gist and then we can pick out pieces out of it because I think, again, I think this will be one of those episodes where lots of people are like, “Is this my clinic?”
We have an associate vet who has joined a practice and the associate seems really unhappy. She is making life very challenging for the team. She previously had been doing relief work and came and did relief work at this practice and the team really loved her. They all got along really well when she was doing relief and everything seemed good. And so, they offered her a position as an associate. And so, she's come on full time and since joining the practice, things have seemed to fall apart a bit. She's really overwhelmed, seems really anxious, is struggling when the team doesn't do things the way that she wants or what she thinks is the right way following… they're doing things that are differing from protocols.
A lot of it seemed to me like she is struggling in a world of gray because she is seeing things in black and white. And so, it seems like she's really unhappy and that's manifesting itself like what they're seeing in this practice is lots of snappy tone of voice, micromanaging, getting all over people when little mistakes are made. At the same time, she has lots of overwhelm in her own work. She's got stack of charts on her desk, things left undone for weeks at a time, messages that haven't been called back that are a week overdue, that kind of stuff.
And so, the doctor that sent in the message was like, okay, looking at it now, it seems like they're a very poor fit for us. And so, I'm wondering what do I here, because the market for vets is really, really slim. I feel like this person isn't a fit for us. In fact, the practice had someone in doing an internship in their practice and apparently that person made a comment, I would never treat my team that way after seeing the associate doctor go off on somebody for making a mistake.
And so, they're really struggling with what do I do with this situation? How do I manage it? For context, it doesn't seem like a whole lot of regular communication has happened, sounds like they've had some conversations about how can we support you, how can we make this better, but not a lot of regular visiting of that conversation. And so, they're like, “How do I get them in a better headspace? How do I solve this problem?”

Andy Roark:
This is unfortunately a fairly common presentation. When we get questions like this, the devil's in the details. We have an associate vet who's not getting along with the staff. Someone else goes, “I have that same problem.” It's true because you have wildly different problems, but they get lumped together as the we're not getting along. We're not getting along can mean a lot of different things. And so, we have to always start these things.
Let's start with headspace as we usually do. Assume good intent upfront. It's easy to get locked in on an idea of this person is messing up and so I'm going to get really fixated on them and I'm going to watch for them to mess up and just add a laundry list of things. I'm sure I'm not alone in seeing that with people where you go, “Oh, first of all, you are right. This person is struggling and you watching them like a hawk and documenting every misstep they make during the day and blowing it up because it's not a tiny mistake, it's further confirmation of this significant problem.” That doesn't help get past the problem. It doesn't set the person being watched like a hawk up for success, and it's miserable from the person who's hyper-attuned to this because they take every misstep as a huge failing. And so, that's not a good headspace to be in.
Now at the same time, we're not going to let this person go on and be awful to the staff. I am really bothered by the fact that someone was there and said, “I will never treat my staff that way.” I really don't like that, but we can balance those things. Try to start with the good headspace is always my first thing is go, “You know what? Let's try not to judge. Instead, let's try to diagnose.” I really think a lot of this comes down to what is going on. We had this person and they were doing relief work and they seemed to know what we were doing. Honestly, this is the ideal hiring scenario. They know your staff, you know them, you've seen them in battle conditions, and it seemed to work and it seemed good and they came on. How did we get to this toxic, bad, dark place when we had such a nice start of being open and transparent and everybody knows everybody?
And so, I would start off with that and say, “What is the diagnosis?” When I read this letter, it's like a number of the letters that we get where people will come forward and they have a laundry list of the things that are problems. Well, the person is a micromanager and they're mean to the staff and they get really huffy and they don't write up their records. I'm sort of pulling these out of the air, not that's what it was here, but we get a list of behaviors like that. I generally look at it and I go, “No, I don't know what to do with this when we're looking at people and managing people.”
My question is, is this 10 different problems or is this one problem that's manifesting 10 different ways? If it's 10 different problems, that's usually really bad. There's usually not much that we can do. You know what I mean? If you're like, “I have 10 problems with this person.” I go, “The answer is going to be for you and that person to part ways because 10 problems is too many problems.”
If you're like, “I have one problem with this person,” and it manifests all these different ways, then that's very doable. For example, if I have a doctor who refuses to take days off, who calls multiple times when she's off, she won't go home at night because she's writing up records, she rides the staff really hard because she says they're not doing it the right way. She won't let other doctors see “her cases.” That may sound like a laundry list to you. To me, I say, “Oh, this person does not trust the practice that she's in.”

Stephanie Goss:
Trust.

Andy Roark:
This is a tough problem. All of those behaviors are from one behavior which this person doesn't trust what is happening in the practice and other people taking care of what they're supposed to take care of. And so, that's not 10 problems, that's one problem. We can talk to this person about trust and it may be that we can meet their needs and get them to let go a little bit. We can come to a workable solution here as opposed to this person is doing 10 radically different things that are culturally incompatible with what we're doing. They go, “I probably can't help you there. This is probably just not a relationship that's going to work.” Anyway, that's the thing I put first from a headspace standpoint is we need to do some diagnostics here. Seek first to understand is this a lot of different problems or is this one problem? What are your thoughts from that when you look at this? Are you seeing a pattern here? Are you seeing one problem?

Stephanie Goss:
Well, it's interesting because I probably… No, there's not one clear-cut problem here when I read this, and I also am not sure that it's actually 10 different problems. When I was looking at this, I was trying to pick apart what is the root here? What is the real challenge? For me from a headspace perspective, I wondered if it was a little bit of what you were talking about earlier, which is when we see something as negative, so from a personal, I went through a period of time where I was struggling to get along with somebody that was on my team.

Andy Roark:
Was it me? It was me, wasn't it?

Stephanie Goss:
I was struggling to get along with somebody on my team. No, it was not you. Although this could apply to you, it could apply to anybody, because here's what happens. When we're frustrated and we're angry or any of those strong emotions, it is really, really easy to do exactly what you said, which is if I'm frustrated with you or I'm mad at you about something, it's really easy for me to look at you. Now, all of a sudden, instead of being able to see any of the good things, all I'm seeing are the things that are irritating me because I am irritated, I am in a state of upset, I am frustrated, I am angry, whatever that emotion is. Now, all of a sudden, it's really easy to start picking at all the little things that on a completely average ordinary day, I would give zero Fs about. I would not even notice care, think twice about, but because I'm frustrated because I'm angry because I'm irritated, all of those things seem huge.
And so, to me in reading this, it seems like there might be a little bit of that happening and I could totally be wrong. These could all be-

Andy Roark:
No, I agree.

Stephanie Goss:
… regularly occurring patterns of behavior that really are 10 different problems. At the same time, it's really easy to get into that negative headspace. I mean, I have done it with you. I've done it with some of my closest friends or with my family. When you get irritated, that's all you see. You really do have to work extra hard to force yourself to be in that good headspace and assume good intent and say, okay, let's start with the good, let's put together a good list, because one of the things that I would say from a headspace perspective here is that you need the ability to step back a second and do some weighing from a pro-con perspective because to your point, if it is really 10 things and you probably should part ways, one of the things that I want to do before I get to that step is to figure out is there something worth saving here? In order to do that, I have to look at the good as well.
And so, for me, some of it is, let's step back, let's assume good intent for a second and say, “What are the things that this person is doing well? What is the good in this relationship?” And really try to find those examples so that I can do a little balancing and a little perspective exercise for myself and say, “Am I just nitpicking the hell out of this because I'm irritated with this person and I just want to stab them in the eyeball with a fork?” Because that's a real place that we get to in our heads and it's really easy to be that negative or is there good?

Andy Roark:
I think you're totally right. I mean, I've seen this exact behavior in myself with my wife who I love dearly, deeply. I think anyone who's been married, and maybe I'm wrong, but I really believe probably anyone who has been married for any amount of time, you're like, “I got married last week but I haven't seen this.” I'm like, “Okay.” But other than that-

Stephanie Goss:
Come back to us in a year.

Andy Roark:
… if you've been married for any amount of time, you have come to a period where your spouse has just irked you and everything they do is seen through the lens that you're looking through as something else that further irks you. I think that happens with anybody, but I'm trying to think of examples that aren't going to get me in trouble when they get back to my wife.

Stephanie Goss:
When I get in that headspace, I get real mad and I'm like, “You're unloading the dishwasher incorrectly.” It's that little level, just like, “You're taking out the trash wrong. Can you do that quieter?”

Andy Roark:
Absolutely. I can give you an example, our story about this person who she believed her boss was out to get her and she was asked why she thought her boss was out to get her. She said, “Because the boss has moved all the birthday celebrations to Tuesday at lunch.” And the person said, “Why is that?” She's like, “Because he hates me.” He said, “Well how is this him hating you?” She was like, “He knows that on Tuesdays I have this thing and I never get done on time. And so, I always get to lunch a half an hour late. And so, he's put birthdays on Tuesdays to spite me so that I…” She was 100% serious that this was-

Stephanie Goss:
Out to get you.

Andy Roark:
Now, she could be right. Her boss could be next level… I mean that is Dr. Evil freaking… I mean honestly, there are petty, petty people who are playing the games at that level. I'm sure there are. But to me, I just sit and go, “Are you serious right now?” I have had those thoughts of, “You are unloading the dishwasher right now because I'm listening to a podcast I'm very excited about and you know how distracting it is when you do that.” It's just something ridiculous.
But we all have these thoughts and I say them jokingly, but once they happen, sometimes it's hard to get your head pulled out of your coat and say, “Wait a second, let's hold on now. Let's reset mentally here.” That's really hard. When it really gets hard is like, pardon me, but the old Middle Eastern conflict model where I don't even remember what you did that made me irked, but you did something and so I did something back and that made you irked, and now, this thing has built up over you did a thing, and so I in my resentment did a thing and now we've both spun up to the point you go, “What is this even about?” And nobody remembers, but here we are. I've seen those things happen as well.
Anyway, my point here in getting to the diagnosis, so part one was what is this really about? Is this multiple problems or is this one problem? If it's multiple problems, I do think you are right is can we reset here? I think that's going to be a big part of action steps. The first thing we're going to talk about is an intervention to try to hit a reset button. We've been able to pull these out when we get to that point, but what is going on here?
Then the other part of being fair to the other person is what is my role here? Let's start with our safe for the conversation. Can I sit next to this person, smile at him? And that goes into assuming good intent. Okay, they're doing this thing, this is not acceptable. If I can't smile at this person or just talk to them, I'm not in a headspace to have this. I'm triggered and this is going to go badly. A is assume good intent like okay, something is going on with this person. I really like the fact that they said the associate that she's overwhelmed and anxious. I think that's the words that she used at the beginning, but definitely overwhelmed and struggling. I say, “You know what? That's a good way to look at this as overwhelmed and struggling because we can all empathize with that feeling.” So, assuming good intent. She's not trying to be toxic, she's not trying to run you out of business. She's not trying to chase the staff away. She's struggling.
F is set up to fail. I think this is a big one. Has this person been set up to fail? Meaning, have expectations been communicated? Have we said anything at the very beginning of these behaviors or are these behaviors that have piled up without us having a real heart-to-heart conversation? Has she been misled about what her days were going to be like? Is she being supported by a staff that was fair given her experiences as a relief vet? If you're like, “It's the exact same staff that she's known as a relief vet.” I would say, “Well, that seems like she set out pretty clear expectations.” Has she been coached on these behaviors or is this something where we've just let this all bubble and boil and now we've got to deal with it?

Stephanie Goss:
I think that the F is a big one for me. This was one where I was like, “Oh.” This episode might be a little bit of Camp Tough Love because for me, a lot of this is think you got to own some of this as, and I'm going to speak to manager and it could be practice owner who's managing or the practice manager, but whoever is actually in charge of this situation, I think that there's some self-reflection here. That ultimately, when this was me in the practice, this was a bitter pill to swallow but is an important one in terms of leadership growth because relief is not the same as full-time. And so, you said, “Is this the team that she has been working with since the beginning?” I think that there's value in asking those questions. At the same time, I've never once worked with a relief doctor where the expectations for them and the nitty gritty nuance of how we work with them is exactly the same as it would be an associate doctor of practice. There is always flexibility and there's always difference there.
I ran a ship where I expected a lot out of my relief doctors and I communicated that upfront, “Here's what we want. We have a certain level of medicine that we're practicing and these are our standards of care. Do you agree with this?” There is a whole interview process to make sure that culturally, it was a good fit with a relief doctor so that our clients got the same level of experience and at the same time, there was lots of things that we let slip and that slid around when a relief vet was present because it's not the same. Those are two different things.
I say that because the expectations for you as a practice are radically different even if it's unspoken, and also the expectations as on the flip side as the doctor, those are two very different things. Practicing relief in a practice that you like the team and you get along with everybody is still radically different than being there every day or four days a week, whatever a full-time schedule is, as an associate vet. Those two things are radically different. I think that there's probably a lot of the unpacking of this conversation falls around expectations. I'm so glad you said that.

Andy Roark:
I think you're really spot on with that. The last part of safe is E, is what is the end result? I think people go, “Well, I want this person to immediately cease and desist all negative behaviors.” And I go, “Well, that's probably not going to happen right off the bat.” I think the end result for having this conversation is I want this person to feel heard and I want to feel heard and I want to have a path forward for how we're going to work through this.
What I don't want as an end result, what I'm not looking for is apology for past behavior, just owning things a person did before. I would like that, but really my focus here is not on adjudicating what happened before and did this person micromanage, were they mean, was what that intern said valid? I can't change the past. It was or it wasn't. It doesn't really matter. What does matter is that things have to change going forward. And so, just remember to keep that forward focus as you move into this conversation. I think that that's really important.
I think the last part for headspace for me is sometimes, especially we see changes in behavior like this, sometimes it's because people really are struggling and there's nuance here, but it helps me to be empathetic and I think to be a good leader if I can talk to someone and understand that this person is behaving the way they are because they are struggling. That just helps me to get into a good headspace.
This is important because there's nuance here. Someone can be struggling and still be held accountable to our core standards and our standards of behavior. That doesn't make me a monster for saying, “I understand that you're having a hard time and I want you to be successful and I want you to be here and I'm willing to invest in you to try to keep you here and to make these things happen, and, at the same time, I cannot have our staff members complaining about feeling unsafe. I can't have our staff members complaining that they feel tyrannized or yelled at. Those things cannot happen.” I really think that we're going to talk a little bit about that when we get into action steps about laying those things down.
We've had a couple episodes recently that have touched on this. There really is that balance and we're going into the Practice Owner Summit and that's the focus of my presentation at Practice Owner Summit is it's not about making everyone happy, it's about finding the balance between people. I want to meet the needs of this associate vet, but at the same time, it's my job to protect the staff and make sure their needs are being met. And so, part of balance is to say, I want to support you and I want to help you, and I can commit to giving you my time and energy or coaching or support or whatever else you need as long as these other needs that I have for my associate vets are being met. If they can't meet my needs, then this is not going to work.
It doesn't mean they're a bad person. It doesn't mean I'm mad about it. It doesn't mean that they aren't struggling or I think that they're not doing their best, it's just it doesn't work for me, it doesn't work for the team. And so, there is nuance in that where you can have someone, and I think a lot of people in vet medicine struggle with this. You can have someone who is struggling, and at the same time, they can't continue to work here because their behaviors are not changing.

Stephanie Goss:
I totally agree with that. I feel like this is a good spot to take a quick break and then we come back and talk about action steps.

Andy Roark:
Yeah, let's do it.

Stephanie Goss:
Hey friends, I just want to jump in here for a quick second and say that I am super, super pumped about all of the awesome things that we have coming down the pipeline in 2023. Now, we haven't announced all of the surprises that we have coming for all of you, but there are lots of great things coming to kick off the year. If you haven't signed up for some of the workshops and events that are happening in the first quarter of 2023, you want to head your little self over to unchartedvet.com/events and check out what we've got coming.
If you are a member, all of the workshops are listed there. You can log into your account and sign up for free. If you are not a member, you should check out what's coming and consider a membership for 2023 because you could pay $99 per workshop, but you also could pay $699 and sign up for a whole year of registration as a member and then you get access not only to all of the workshops that we do, but all of the amazing content that happens over in our workplace group and our community. It is so fun, it is lively, it is just jam-packed with conversation from the community about what's going on in their practices, how to solve challenges, how to support each other, and it is one of my favorite places to spend time. I would love to see you there. If you need that address one more time, it's unchartedvet.com/events. Now, back to the podcast.

Andy Roark:
All right, let's get in some action steps here. The first thing I just want to lay down is, and I said this in the first half, but this is why I took the microphone when we came back because I'm like, I'm going to say this before Stephanie says something else. Action steps are, it's time for an intervention. I call this an intervention because I don't like interventions, let me just say. Some people would be like, “This is the come to Jesus talk.” I'm like, nah, it kind of is. I don't want it to be, I really don't like this. The best way to handle this situation is to get in your time machine and go back six months or a year or two years. As soon as that behavior first started, you say, “Hey, that's not like you. Help me understand. What happened here?” I'm going to say, what are you thinking, but I'm going to try to say it in person. It's like, “Hey, you know we don't do that here. Tell me, what's going on?” That's the best thing.
If you got a time machine, you should use it and go back to the first time it happened and say something right then at the very beginning that brings this out in the open. Barring that, and given the fact that this has gotten to this place and all of these behaviors have been documented, we've had this experience with the intern coming and being like, “What is this?” It's our best hope is intervention with follow-up. I think a lot of people are like, “We're going to have the big talk and then I'm going to go right back to how things were before and this person's behavior is just going to be different and they're going to just be changed by themselves.”
I'm like, “No. We need to try to hit the reset button, which is a big thing.” It goes back to what we were talking about before about the spinning up and the resentment upon resentment or looking through this negative lens at other things and the list of grievances getting bigger and bigger. We need to hit that reset button to get a fresh start and then we need to have ongoing conversations or coaching conversations thereafter. And so, I think if your expectation is have the conversation and then be done, that's not where we are, that's unrealistic expectations. You're going to be unhappy with the results you get. Do you agree with that?

Stephanie Goss:
100%. I think that for me, a huge part of where we start actions stepwise, like I said, goes back to looking at the F because looking at the email, this person has done some great things in terms of trying to manage this. They were like, “We have had some conversations about the specific way that this associate is talking to the team and confronting them and the impact that it has on the team,” which is wonderful and amazing and they were like, “And then we get a couple of weeks where the behavior starts to shift and then we go back to the snapping and the criticizing and the way that it was.” And so, I think you're spot on with that, which is when we're asking for behavioral training, we have to follow the training model that we know works.
We've talked about this on the podcast before. We are simple animals and training requires doing the same things over and over and over again and rewarding the good. And so, I think that for me, there was a lot of things in the list of things that are frustrating this person where I'm like, “Okay, are you having a lot of the come to Jesus conversations or are you having ongoing conversations about how is this going? What went well here and what needs to change?” Because when we're talking about behavioral things, it needs to lean much more towards high frequency in terms of the touchpoints than low frequency. This needs to be a regular, “Hey, today was a great day. Thank you for the hard work today. I know that it was a challenging day, but you did a great job and you gave the team, you interacted with them really well and I really appreciate it.” It's that kind of ongoing.

Andy Roark:
Or are you having Andy Roark 2010 conversations that were conversations that only I know I'm having and the other person's oblivious to, where you're like, I'm so subtle, I'm not convinced the other person understood the conversation that happened. And so, there'll be people who, I'll be like, “Did you speak to them about them being mean to the staff?” They'll be like, “Yeah.” I'll be like, “What did you say?” They were like, “I asked them how was your day?” I was like, “Yeah?” And they said it was fine. I said, “Good, fine days are good.” I think they got the message.

Stephanie Goss:
I have tell you the best story that illustrates that point perfectly. I, once upon a time, had a manager and the expectation was that we would have regular one-on-ones when we had time scheduled where they were in the practice because they weren't in the practice all the time. The expectation for me for a one-on-one was we're going to actually sit down and have a conversation about how are things going, we're going to talk about specifics, we're going to talk about what's going well, what's not working, and get into the details.
We never talked about what the actual expectations would look like. I just was one-on-one. We're going to have time on the calendar, this means we'll sit down, we'll have a whole conversation. Probably, I don't know, the first three months went by and they came regularly. They showed up when they were supposed to, they brought coffee for everybody. They were like, “Hey, how's it going? How's everything going in the practice?” I'm like, “Things are going okay. We're just trucking along.” Then before I knew it, the day was done and they had left and we hadn't actually sat down to have a conversation, oh, they've got other stuff going on in their schedule like we'll sit down and have a conversation.
And so, it came time to do our reviews and one of the questions asked was how are one-on-ones going with your boss? I gave a really low score and my boss's boss was like, “Hey, I want to talk to you about this low score that you gave.” I was like, “Okay.” They were like, “Well, why was your score low?” I was like, “Well, because I haven't actually had a one-on-one with them.” I was like, “I guess that they'll get better. I know things have been really busy, assuming good intent. I know they've got a lot going on.” They were like, “Well, they said that you guys have been meeting every time that they have been at the practice.” I was like, “They did?” In the other person's head, the one-on-one for them was, how's it going? It was them asking the question, how's it going? My answer was the answer to a one-on-one in their head. My expectation and their expectation were at two opposite ends of the scale.

Andy Roark:
Oh no, that's funny.

Stephanie Goss:
Because I'm over here thinking we haven't had a single one-on-one yet.

Andy Roark:
And they're like, “She said she was fine. And so, I wrote that down.”

Stephanie Goss:
100%. 100%.

Andy Roark:
Bam! Nailing this management thing.

Stephanie Goss:
But it's like that, that's part of it from an expectations perspective. Also to your point, the communication perspective, are you actually having the conversation you think you are having? Super, super important. Part of that is you have to get it out of your head and you have to be able to communicate it to them and vice versa so that you know what are the actual expectations. For me, a lot of the F when I was looking at this, and again, we hyper-focus on the negative because when I was reading this, I was picking it apart and I'm like, “Oh, well as a manager, they should be doing this and they should be doing this and they should be doing this.” Then I was like, “You're picking them apart too,” which is also not fair.
At the same time, for me, some of it is, okay, look, if you're having a challenge with a thing, with the behavior, in order to change that behavior, there has to be regular follow-up and regular conversation. Not just a, “Hey, today was really bad, let's have a conversation about how bad it was because I'm going to ask you to fix it.” Those conversations are important, but equally important is the, “Hey, this was a really good day,” or, “Hey, this was kind of in between. Here's what you did great and here's what we still need to work on,” and it needs to be regularly occurring versus just those spot conversations when it's really not so great, which again, the devil's in the details and we're only getting part of the story in this email, but I suspect that there's maybe a little bit of that happening where, to your point, it's the come to Jesus conversations and not as much of that regular follow-up.

Andy Roark:
I agree. One of the things I think I want to try to do in the podcast, I'm looking at 2023 and I'm thinking about what we do here. I love our podcast and I love our conversations. I think I want to challenge myself in 2023 to try to do a little bit more role-play stuff on the podcast. I know a lot of people are like, “Man.”

Stephanie Goss:
We get asked for that a lot.

Andy Roark:
We do get asked for how do you say that? When we do it, people tend to really like it and we get really good feedback on it. I don't know, I think I'm just going to try to factor that in a little bit more. Let's role play a little bit right here. We're talking about action steps and we're talking about this intervention. And so, people say, “Well, what does that look like?”
The first thing that I want to do is say, “Okay, remember when we're going to go in, we need to speak in specifics,” because if we go in and say, “Hey, I don't think things are going well,” what does that mean, or, “The staff is unhappy,” that's hard to get people. I don't understand what that means. If you came to me and said, “Andy, the staff is unhappy, how do you think things are going?” I'm like, “Stephanie, I don't know what you mean. How are they unhappy and why? What did I do that made them, I don't understand.” But I do see a lot of that where people go, “The staff feel, they feel micromanaged, they feel unhappy,” and they'll drop that on the doctor and the doctor's like, that's the worst kind feedback because they're powerless. I don't know-

Stephanie Goss:
It's vague and it's subjective. It is so vague and it is so subjective. There's nothing concrete or specific. You couldn't say to me, “Stephanie, close your eyes. What does you micromanaging the team look like?” I couldn't give you a picture of what that looks like from what you just told me.

Andy Roark:
I agree. I hear that feedback given to people all the time. Guys, it's destructive because it makes the person feel terrible and does not give them anything actionable they can do to change their behavior. And so, a lot of it's when we're just speaking specifics because this person's going to need to know specifics. I'm assuming there's something that's going to bring this to a head or there's something that we're seeing a behavior, but we need to have some sort of a specific thing to have this behavior.
Remember, clear is kind. If you're struggling, you're like, “How? This is going to be a terrible conversation.” Remember, clear is kind because I need to fix this problem because what's happening, it's not okay to keep happening. And so, we're at that place where we're going to have this intervention conversation and clear is kind. What we're doing is it just doesn't work and I need to say that it doesn't work. If this person's like, “I hate it here. I hate these people here. I'm not going to change my behavior,” then they need to leave. That's where we are.
And so, it's time to put cards on the table. That doesn't mean I'm giving an ultimatum, but if that's how they feel, I need them to know that what's going on is not working for me and that's fine. A lot of times when I say we're going to do an intervention, people say, “Oh, you're going to bring them in the office and we're going to close the door.” I'm like, “No, no, no.” Just because it's an important conversation doesn't mean it needs to be a stressful conversation. I want to lower the stakes. I want to be empathetic. I want to have a real conversation with this person, not a performative flex on them, not a, I'm going to twist your arm, not a, it's two and a half strikes buddy. It's not that. Especially if you've got multiple problems or this person's acting out in these different ways, we need to really try to come together. Here it goes. And so, you can help coach me through this.
I guess what I'm going to try to do is we need to set a time, make sure we have time to talk with them. And so, “Hey, can you come in tomorrow morning? I want to do a touch base with you and talk through how things are going and where we are as we come into the end of the year. “I like to use landmarks like the end of the year to make it be like, “Yeah, we're going to the end of the year wrap-up.” And so, “Hey, can you come in? Let's find a time or can I take you to lunch tomorrow and we can talk through things and see how things are going, but I want to make sure I have time to do it.”
The big thing is I'm going to try to bring them in and lay out the problem and say, “Hey, I love having you here.” I tend to like to start in a positive conversation and try to frame the issue. I think a lot of times, we mess this up and we go too specific. I say, “Hey Stephanie Goss, welcome to my office. Yesterday you said this negative thing and it's a problem.” You know what I mean?

Stephanie Goss:
Yes.

Andy Roark:
That makes you feel like everything between you and me is bad. And so, I'm going to start out wide. I'm going to say, “Hey Stephanie, first of all, we're coming to the end of the year, I'm looking back at the year and I am glad you're here and I want you to know that. I want you to know that I think that you're a really good doctor. We've gotten a number of positive comments from clients about you over the last year. Here's looking over our online reviews and I see this positive feedback and I think you have great medical knowledge and I think that you are really popular with our clients and I know how hard you try to keep our clients happy. I can see that effort in you and I can see that care and compassion for the pets. I just want you to know that all those things are really obvious and I really personally appreciate them.”
And so, now, I'm trying to lay this down. It's not everything is bad and I'm not going to say it if it's not true. And so, I'm trying to say to them honestly what I wanted to do. If you can't come up with anything that's true and positive, this relationship is not worth having. I'm going to try to open up that and say, “Hey, this is where I am, this is how I feel.”
The other thing is I'm trying to lower the stakes. This is not do or die. There's lots of good things about our relationship. I laid down what's positive and what's going well, then I'm going to transition over to where we're going. I don't want to make this an accusatory thing and say, “Well, the staff says you were mean to them and so you were mean to them.” What I'm going to say is, “Hey, so these are the things that I love about… One of the points that I want you to focus on or that we need to talk about in development is interactions with the staff. There has been a perception that you can be really negative about the performance of the staff or how they're doing and I have some staff members who feel like they walk on eggshells because they're worried about making you unhappy. I'll give you some examples that don't divulge these people's identity, but for example, I've had people doing [inaudible 00:49:34].”

Stephanie Goss:
Or even if it does, if it's something that you see, that's a great place as a manager. Even if it puts the spotlight on another person on the team, if you have seen something yourself like in the email, they gave us a great example of where this doctor snapped really badly at an assistant who was stocking the room and put what the doctor thought was too many needles in the needle bin and they snapped at them.
That's a great concrete example of you see something like that, say, “I know it's a really small thing, but this felt like a really good example for me of what I'm talking about, because I know that you didn't mean to make her feel bad. I know that you didn't intend for your tone of voice to come off as mean. You want it done right and I appreciate that. At the same time, this is how it came across to me or this is how they perceived it and that's what we have to talk about because we can't have that. I don't want that to be that kind of interaction between you and somebody else on a regular basis,” or something like that.

Andy Roark:
I like that as well. The best thing is when we see that happen, that's the best time to intervene. And so, the best thing is if we can see something like that happen and this person snaps at one of the support staff because they put too many needles into the container and they raise their voice, the best thing is say, “Hey, can we talk real quick? Hey, listen, when you raise your voice to the staff like that, it rattles them to their core. They respect you and she's trying to do her best. That type of feedback, it damages the trust that they have in you. Also raising your voice like that, that's not what we do and that's not the behavior that I expect from you. Is everything okay?”
I really like that is everything or what happened, but if it happens and I see it, I'd say, “Hey man, that's not what we do here. Are you doing okay? Is everything all right? That's not how you tend to behave. I'm a little worried about you.” I use those phrases a lot of, what happened, is everything okay, I'm a little bit worried about you. Those are true and they're compassionate statements of not like, “How could you yell at her like a monster?” But instead, “Hey, that's not like you and that's not what we do here. Are you doing okay, man? I'm a little worried about your behavior, what's going on?” That's exactly where I want to get to. It's in that what's going on conversation. I really like that.
If I'm having a sit down with the person, again, catching them in the moment is always, and having this specific conversation is always the best. But if I'm doing an evaluation type thing, let's say this is something that's slowly, steadily building, I'm going to start with all the things that I like about them and then I'm going to say, “Hey, this is a developmental plan just so you know where we're at. We've gotten negative feedback from the staff about these behaviors. Their perception is that you are unhappy with the work that they do.” And that's important.
I'd say, “Their perception is, I didn't say you yell at them. I said their perception is that you are aggressive about mistakes that they make. Honestly, some of them seem to be fearful in their interactions with you, and that's a behavior we need to fix. Do you see those behaviors or do you remember interactions like that?” I'm trying to get them to say, “Yes, I see that behavior,” or, “No, I don't see that behavior.” We can open the conversation up from there.

Stephanie Goss:
I love that. I liked the idea of being able to use a landmark if that is appropriate. The other thing that I like to do is to just use the wide end of the net from the place of compassion. If I was going to have this conversation, it's probably going to feel a little bit like a come to Jesus, because it sounds like, and again, we only have part of the story, we only know what they sent us in the email, but it sounds like there's stuff that has maybe been building and hasn't been addressed really regularly. And so, I would probably start with, “Hey, I just want to touch base and check in with you because you don't seem okay. You seem really anxious. You seem really overwhelmed and I'm worried about you. I want to know where your head's at and how you're feeling so I can help figure out how I can support you and how we can support you.”

Andy Roark:
I like it.

Stephanie Goss:
Then we're coming from a place of compassion and I like them to direct the conversation. Ultimately, I don't like having conversations where I don't know how it's going to end because I'm a control freak, and at the same time, I'm okay with taking some detours. And so, I would rather open it up and have them tell me how do you think things are going? Even if ultimately, I want to get to the place of accountability and have the conversation about these are the changes I need to see from you, this is the behavior that I expect, I still want to know what's the backstory, because there are always at least two sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
And so, I am looking at this from the perspective of the team is frustrated. I am frustrated. I have all of the stuff on one side of the story and I need the other side of it. I need to know what's going on for them, or is there stuff going on at home? Are they frustrated because maybe there was an incident I don't know about with the team member and now there are trust issues? Opening the door to that kind of dialogue is the only way that I'm going to get that information.
Now, they may sit across from me and be like, “Everything's fine.” And then this is where as a leader, it is a superpower to become comfortable with the uncomfortable and lean into the silence because that is where I will just sit and let them actually tell me, is it actually okay? Because one of two things happens, either they keep repeating it's okay, it's okay. You've said that three times now, that isn't actually reassuring me. In fact, it's making me feel like there is something wrong and you just don't want to talk about it. But if that is actually true, I'm cool with that. I would love to know what is going well. Give me some examples. Tell me what is going okay, and push back and drill down. Some of this is going to take work on your part to uncover where they're going.
But I have found to your point from the coaching conversation perspective, part of it is about getting them on your team, getting on the same page. I find it way easier to do that if it's coming from them because now, if they'll open up and they'll tell me about some of the things that are going on with the tech team or something's going on at home or whatever, now I have more of the story and now I can reevaluate. I'll tell you, I've gone into some of these conversations armed with a plan to, look, I've got to address this behavior and that is still true and I come out of it with a completely different plan than I had in my head going into it because they gave me information that I didn't have at the start of that conversation.

Andy Roark:
I agree with that. I think from a strategy standpoint, you put your finger right on it. I don't want this to be an adversarial conversation where I'm telling you that you are failing and you're telling me that you're not, or you're telling me I'm a jerk. I want this to be a conversation where we acknowledge that you are having some struggles with the staff and I'm supporting you. I'm going to help you figure out how to get through this, how to be successful, how to get you what you need and open doors for you with the staff so you can build those relationships. That's where I want to get to.
And so, asking them, and again, it's so much more powerful if I say to you, “Stephanie, how are things going?” And you say, “Andy, I don't think they're going very well.” And I go, “Okay, let's talk about what's going on.” That's so much better than me saying, “Stephanie, things are not going well. I'm going to need you to make some changes.” You feel how tight that is and it's the opportunities for us to work together for you as the associate vet to make your own decisions and own your own development. Those opportunities go away.
The other thing that I want to go back to is when you were like, they say, “It's fine,” or they say, “I don't know,” or “Everything is good,” I completely agree that you can't let things like that lie. And so, the phrasing that I'll use a lot in those things is, “I know you say that things are okay, but I'm seeing these issues from the staff and I need to work with you to figure out how to resolve them. I know that you keep saying it's fine, but I really don't feel like you feel it is based on our conversation,” or, “You keep saying it's fine, but the truth is we still need to deal with the outcomes and what the staff is saying and how they're feeling.”
It's a way of moving that conversation first, but I think we both agree, you can't let the person say I'm fine and then cross their arms. We can push in a number of times. A lot of these things are, you set yourself up for the best case scenario. The first thing is I want to lower the stakes here. I want to convince them that I see value in them and in our relationship. Then I want to ask them how they think it's going and I want the conversation to open up as they tell me where they're struggling. That's great.
If that's not going to happen, then we're going to fall back to, I'm going to present to them what I see going on and then ask them if they agree with that representation or if they have ideas about how we might move forward with it. If they say, “Nope, I don't agree with this, everything is fine,” and I can't draw them out, then ultimately, I'm going to fall back to the least favorite of mine, which is, “Hey, this is what I see and this is not acceptable for our culture. It's not okay. It's not how we run a practice. It's not the place that we want to come and work at. It's not okay for the staff to be worried about getting yelled at and I need you just to hear that that's not a thing that we're going to be able to do or that we're going to allow to go on in this clinic.”
I'd say, “I like you. I want you to be here, but I need you to hear from me that this is not acceptable and it cannot happen again and I want to support you. If there are things that frustrate you, I want you to communicate them to me so I can try to work on them, because I do want our practice to get better. I know our practice isn't perfect and no practice is perfect, but you got to work through these things with me and you cannot blow up at the staff and make them untrusting of you or scared to make decisions or to work independently. That's not okay. It's not in line with our values. It's not the workplace culture that we want to create. Can you help me with that? Can you make that happen?”
That's the type of wording that I'll use even if I have somebody whose arms are crossed and ultimately, I say clear is kind, it doesn't get much more clear than, “We cannot have doctors raising their voice to the technicians. That cannot happen. That's not in line with our culture. The damage to our team morale is huge and it undermines everything we're trying to build from a workplace standpoint. The optics for you are terrible. Really, it is what people will remember about you and it can't happen and it cannot happen again.”

Stephanie Goss:
I think that for me, that's the resolution note. Really at the end of the day, and you put your finger on this early on in the episode, which is like we've got to do some pre-work and some zooming out and some looking at this from a big picture perspective and really do some assessment pros and cons wise on does this feel saveable? Because if the answer's no, then as much as it's painful and as much as doctors are hard to find, and I think this person knows the answer because they were just like finding good people to work with us is also a challenge. And so, I don't want to lose a doctor, but I don't want them to run the team out of town. And so, you might know the answer already and it may just be doing the hard thing that you don't want to do and parting ways.
If you zoom out and you do the assessment and you're like, “There's some serious pros here and I would like to try and save this relationship,” then I think you have to look at this from the perspective of how can I start to have some of these conversations and you have to, for me, the last piece of advice on the action steps in gearing up to have this conversation is the trap, the giant gopher trap as manager that you can very easily fall into is now I've done this work and I've listed out all of these things that are going wrong or that this person is doing that are not okay or that I'm irritated by. The giant gopher trap is to fall down into that hole and say, “Here's the 30 things that are driving me crazy that you need to fix,” because all that is going to do is make them be like, “All I'm hearing is negative, all I'm being told is that I'm bad. I'm not doing things right. I might as well give up.” That is immediately going to set them up for failure.
And so, you have to resist the temptation to be like, “I need you to not raise your voice to the staff, and also, I notice that you have records that haven't been written up still sitting on your desk from two weeks ago, and I notice that you have client callbacks that you haven't made from last week. I need you to deal with all of those things.” It's such an easy temptation to give into as a manager to want to address all of those things. And this is where I think you have to pick your poison and you have to pick the place where you start and then recognize that this is if we are truly going to coach this person out of it, and I don't think that it's unsaveable.
I would look at this and say, “Well, I would want the opportunity to coach if there are enough redeeming things in the pros column. I would want the opportunity to do that. I also need to be realistic. Rome was not built in a day. I'm not going to change this situation overnight either. I have to pick a place that feels like the most middle ground.” For me, that's also part of why I'm going to do everything I possibly can to get them talking, because I want to know is there some middle ground? Is there a bone that they will throw out to me that I can pick up and gnaw on because it feels like a good starting place. Where can we meet in the middle? What can I help them work on? And then work my way forward, keeping my eye on all of those other things but also recognizing that things that have gone unspoken for months, you cannot dump it all in here. It'd be like, “Let me have this conversation.”

Andy Roark:
I think that's totally true. Well first of all, you don't know if this is salvageable, because you cannot change this person. It 100% depends on that person and whether or not they're going to change and you don't have any power of that. If you say, “Andy, is this going to work out?” No idea. Go have the conversation and the person sometimes they surprise you and they'll say, “Look, this is what I'm going through,” or, “This is what I'm dealing with,” or, “This is the thing that really bothers me.” I say, “You know what? I can support you through that or I can work with you through that.” Sometimes they'll say, “I understand what you're saying and I see that and I don't like it about myself and it's something I'm willing to work on.” Or sometimes they say, “Screw you. If you can't handle me on the bad days, you don't deserve me on the good days.” And you go-

Stephanie Goss:
Or sometimes they say, “I am really unhappy and I actually, I was going to give you my notice.” Sometimes it works out easy for you.

Andy Roark:
Exactly right. And so, you don't know what's going to happen. All you can do is tell this person what you need and go from there. The other thing to your point, sometimes we stage these conversations. We say these are the problems. When it's at the very beginning when a diagnosis and try to figure out, is this an underlying problem that's manifesting out? One of the reasons I want to do that is because when I bring them in, I don't want to talk to them about the 10 symptoms. I want to talk to them about the one problem. You don't seem to have a good relationship with staff from what I see, or the staff does not perceive you as being approachable and here's examples of things that they've given feedback on.
I'm trying to get to what is the big thing that manifests out multiple ways, so we can talk about one thing. If there's not one thing connected, then you need to pick one. You need to pick the most urgent one and you need to talk to them about that. A lot of times what happens is you can get that person to say, “Well, this is why I do that.” You go, “Oh, now I understand why you do the six other things that you also do.” A lot of times you can unlock that. But to your point, if you just back the dump truck of complaints up and just dump it on them, they're going to feel like it's pointless. No one wants to hear 87 things that are wrong with them because they go, “Well, you just don't like me and you're not going to like me and this is everything about me you don't like, what are we doing here?” And so, that kills it. But to your point, pick the things that matter and push for it.
The last thing is, you said pick your poison. That's always it. I think a lot of people ride in on their white stallion with their flaming raging sort of justice and say, “This person's a bad cultural fit and they're gone. You're better off without them.” I've always thought it's amazing how often we are better off without people when we think, “Oh, I can't hire anyone, I don't have an option.” A lot of times you are better off without the person.
At the same time to me, I'm pretty darn pragmatic. This is a math problem. You need to look at the discomfort of working with this person for the foreseeable future versus the discomfort of working without this person for the foreseeable future. Honestly, from this, it sounds like even if that person can't be replaced, the scales may still not balance it. You may have less discomfort without this person not being able to replace them than you do with this person. If you are able to replace them, then that's a bonus.

Stephanie Goss:
Oh man.

Andy Roark:
That's a lot.

Stephanie Goss:
This one was a lot, but also fun. I really like your idea about doing some more role-play because we get that a lot.

Andy Roark:
How was that? It's not as smooth as I hoped it would be probably.

Stephanie Goss:
That was on the fly.

Andy Roark:
Well, but here's the thing too. I think if we want to do more role play, and I should have said this from the very beginning is I don't plan to graph this out. I'm not interested in coming in because I think the real problem is when you have consultants and they do role play, they sit down with their spreadsheet or their laptop and their word processor and they wordsmith some BS that you would never actually say to someone. The truth is it's not perfect and it's never going to be perfect. We are not perfect when we have these conversations. I think we're pretty good at them.
I think what I would say is if we're going to do more role play type stuff, the way I would do it is to say, “How do I think I would do this? Let's talk about it. What might this look like?” Because the other thing is you don't know how the person's going to react, and so, I'm willing, I think that's what's held me back from doing more role play stuff is to say, “Well, there's not a perfect way to say this and I don't want to be critiqued on that.” And I say, “I'm willing to do some more role play stuff with everyone recognizing that you and I are just hammering through this and we're going to take our best shot.” Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work and you never know what the person's going to say. Anyway, I'm interested in trying to do some more of that.

Stephanie Goss:
I love it. I love it. Our call to action to all of you is that if there is something that you would love to hear role-played or that you would love to talk through from a specific perspective, send us a shout-out in the mailbag because we would love to see it. Awesome.

Andy Roark:
I think that's fine. Let's try it out and see how it goes.

Stephanie Goss:
Take care everybody. Have a great week.

Andy Roark:
See you, everybody.

Stephanie Goss:
Well, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. This was so fun. Andy and I always enjoy spending part of our week with you all. We hope you enjoyed it. If you did and you have an issue going on in your practice or question that you would love to hear us answer, or if there is something that you would like to hear us role play, talk through the details of what to say and how to say it on the podcast, please send us a message. You can find the mailbag at unchartedvet.com/mailbag. Send us a message whether you want to be anonymous or have a secret code name or not. Send us your message and we would love to feature it on an upcoming podcast episode. Take care, everybody. Have a great week.