What's This Episode About?
This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are sharing a conversation they recently had with a group of managers who were struggling with something that feels familiar to us all at this point. These managers are short-handed and a lot of them came into their role from the team side so they have the skills to fill in on the floor when needed. Their teams are really getting frustrated and/or angry with them when they refuse to cover gaps in the schedule in order to get their own jobs done including things like trying to hire, interview, and payroll. It feels like the ultimate rock and a hard places conversation. Let’s get into this…
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. So this week on the podcast, Andy and I are letting you guys in on a conversation that we had recently with some managers that we were meeting with. Because someone asked the question, what do I do when the team is mad, because we are shorthanded and I won't jump in and help on the floor.
Stephanie Goss:
And I thought it was a fantastic question. So did Andy. We thought it would be great to talk about with you all on the podcast, because we love spending this kind of time and talking through these things with you. So let's just say that I have a lot of empathy for this conversation. I want to be vulnerable and share some of my failings as a manager during this episode with you. And I hope that you not only understand, can relate to and find some solutions in the conversation that Andy and I have. Let's get into this. And now, The Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie. That sounds like a you problem Goss.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, I love it. How's it going, Andy?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, one foot in front of the other. Making it through this crazy year.
Stephanie Goss:
It's crazy time. I think when this episode comes out, we will be in Las Vegas for WVC. Either there or heading there the following week. And I'm looking forward to that and getting excited about seeing our friends and colleagues. Had so much fun when we went to VMX in January. It was so good to see people and I'm looking forward to that. It's that busy time, man. There's so much happening. All the things are spinning at once and it is crazy busy right now.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, it is. But you know, there's some good things too. The spring is coming. I can see, I'm starting to see little shoots popping up through the ground. Some of my plants that lost all their leaves have these little buds on them. Never forget that life is good. And also, everything comes in cycles. I think that's where I'm living right now. Is that everything comes in cycles and this too shall pass.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so, my family's had a rough start to the year, which is people being sick and just stressful stuff. But overall, we're really, really lucky. We haven't had any serious health problems like a lot of people who get COVID have had. And you know what I mean? When you really zoom out, you go, this is all okay. It's going to be fine.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And anyway, it's just, I'm thinking a lot about that as cycles just come and go. I saw an interview with, it was the Actor Studio, and somebody asked Tom Hanks, if he could give advice to his younger self, what would he say? And he said, this too shall pass.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And he said, when you make a movie and everybody hates you, this will pass. And when you make a great movie and everybody loves you, that's also going to pass. And I was like, you're speaking to me, Tom.
Stephanie Goss:
That's some solid advice.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. You're speaking to me buddy. That's where we are.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man. Well, I am excited for today's episode. You and I recently were doing a meeting and where we're hanging out with a bunch of practice managers mostly, and had a great conversation with them about a question that somebody asked. And they asked, how do I balance doing my job when the team gets mad and feels unsupported when I don't cover staff shortages, because everybody is short-staffed right now. Everybody is dealing with the normal winter sick plus the COVID and everybody's tired and burned out and people are taking vacations and all of the things.
Stephanie Goss:
And so everybody is dealing with being shorthanded more regularly, I think, than potentially in the past. And so, this one immediately resonated with me so hard because I struggled with this more than once in my time in the clinic because it's so hard. And it's so common. And so, I think we both were like, “Yes, we should talk about this on the podcast.” Because it is not exclusive to the group of managers we are with. It is something that happens to everybody.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think it's worth talking about both from a headspace perspective as we do, and also a logistical like how do you avoid this? How do you set yourself and your team up for success?
Dr. Andy Roark:
You know what's funny, is the actual avoiding it is generally the easy part. It's the mindset that is required. That is the hard part. But it makes a break. That's why I really like this question. And I see a lot of managers. Specifically managers. And sometimes head techs, but often it's managers, and the group that seems to be most affected in my mind are the people who have been veterinarians who have moved up into a management role, like a medical director role or a practice owner role.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And technician support staff, front desk staff who have moved up into a practice manager role. That was you as well. Right, Steph. You did that.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh yeah. That's the hardest part. Because you have the skills, right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And I'll lay out why those groups really get pinched. I think people who come in as a manager, have so much easier of a road in this specific way. So, I really like this problem and this is some real psychology judo, that we get to do. And so I'm going to really try to throw some people around today and like, I got to shake you and make you see this a little differently.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then you have to believe it so that you can communicate it in meaningful ways to other people. But this is a common problem. Especially during the times when so many practices are shorthanded.
Stephanie Goss:
All right. So let's start as we do with the headspace.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The first thing that we got to do is get not defensive, not combative, not frustrated. It's really easy to get ticked off because you are leading this team, you are working your butt off and someone says, “Can you put on lead apron and take these radiographs?” And you're like, “No, I can't.” And they're like, “Agh, thought you cared about pets. I thought you cared about the staff.”
Stephanie Goss:
Well, and it usually happens when you are running through the hospital, doing something else. Right? It's not happening in the moment when you are on the floor to observe the team. And it's like, “Hey, can you help us with this patient here in the moment.” The frustration comes when you are clearly doing something else in your mind, and the team is also asking you, “Hey, can you do this thing?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Well, because if you were hanging out on the floor, like, “Hey, I'm here to support you guys.” And they're like, “Can you put in these lead apron and do this thing that you've been trained to do and have plenty of experience with.” You would just do it and then no one would get upset. And then you wouldn't even think about it again. It's only when you are busy, you're doing other things. You've got 87 fires.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You are looking for a doctor to sign some paperwork or to explain what happened in the one-star review that you just found online. Because the person is going to call with a reporter and wants to talk to you. And you're like, “I need this now.” And someone's like, “Can you hold this cat, for some blood.” And you're like, “No.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And they're like, “Ah, fine then. Just leave us here.” And then you feel like crap. Right? Something we've been talking a lot about recently incongruence is this mindset. And I love this. I wrote about it recently when I was writing about people who struggle with, are you a real vet? So people who had been in full-time practice and then were not anymore.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I think a lot of those people really struggle with the question of, Hey, now that I'm not practicing every day, am I a real vet? And when we talk about that and how we feel that way, it really focuses on this idea of incongruence. And what that means is, there is an ideal way that we see ourselves. Like when you look at Stephanie Goss, and you look in the mirror and say, “This is ideal Stephanie Goss.” Like what I want to be.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then you say, who am I actually? And if the, who am I actually, and what is ideal Stephanie Goss, if those are different, that's a problem. It makes us feel uncomfortable. It makes us feel like we're not who we want to be. When I was 15 years old and I thought ideal Andy Roark looked like Arnold Schwarzenegger, and I stepped in front of the mirror. A scrawny pasty, 165 pound Andy Roark. I was like, “I'm failing. I'm clearly not where I want to be.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Again, it's that comparison is a thief of joy. But you can compare yourself to the ideal version of yourself, and steal your own joy. It's this weird internal self-damaging mindset. And so we see that. And that's why it hurts. Is because when the technician says to you, “Hey, can you jump in and help out?” You see yourself as the person who jumps in and helps out. You may still identify as the veterinarian on the floor or the technician on the floor or the CSR on the floor. And your ideal version of yourself would totally fix that problem and help that person.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But your actual person does not have time to put on that lead apron. They don't have time to jump up and start taking those phone calls. And so then, your actual self and your ideal self are not matching up. And you get this deep-seated unease, where you go, I'm not who I'm supposed to be. I'm not the hero that I want to be. And that's called incongruence. And it bothers us deeply.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so that's why we feel that way. At the same time, it's totally reasonable for someone to say, “Hey, I need help. And I know that you have these skills and you seem to be just walking past.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so them asking you does not seem unreasonable or bad. And so anyway, that's where we end up with, why does this happen? Well, because someone needs help and they see you a capable person who could help them. And they ask you, and you have a vision in your head of being a person who jumps in and helps. But now you're not doing that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And there's the internal irritation. And there's the external irritation. When the person who needs help sees you walking by and asking for help. And you say, “I don't have time to help you.” It can make them feel unimportant.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You know?
Stephanie Goss:
Yep. I think it happens and I think it's hard because, from the team's perspective, your job is to make the practice run. And the practice runs taking care of patients and clients. And so it doesn't matter which side of the coin we're talking about. Doesn't matter whether the front desk is flagging you down or the team in the treatment room needs help with the patient.
Stephanie Goss:
This is exponentially more common and more difficult when you have a skillset, because you were once part of the team. Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Sure,
Stephanie Goss:
Whether it's that team or another team, you were a player, you were on the field. You did this stuff and the things. And so they see you, and they have a patient in front of them or a client in front of them. And the path of least resistance for them is to say, “Oh, Stephanie, I need your help with this thing. Makes perfect logical sense to them. And so the reason why it happened is because when you step into a role as manager, you absorb the knowledge that your job is more than just doing the stuff and the things.
Stephanie Goss:
And you have to do your job to really push things forward. And so the struggle happens when you're having that internal argument that you were talking about, Andy, in terms of how you see yourself and what you think you're supposed to be doing and how you identify in that regard.
Stephanie Goss:
They're just seeing a problem in front of them, and you are the answer. And in your brain, there are multiple other answers. And so it's that the why it happens, the frustration, the reason why it happens is because your answer is not the answer they want. Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Exactly.
Stephanie Goss:
That's the path of least resistance. Is if your answer is the answer that they want, and you just do what they want you to. And you know that to be successful at your, it means that sometimes arguably most of the time, your answer should be no. And that sets you up for a battle.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And that's exactly it. Right? The first step in the head space on this is like, why does it happen? It's obvious why it happens. And if you were in the sports staff, you would ask for help as well. That's a common thing. Especially when most of us beat the drum and say, “We're a team. We look out for each other. We support each other. All for one, one for all. Teamwork first.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
The message of, no, I can't help you, seems incongruous with that messaging that we put forward. And so it's totally understandable why it happens. I think you're absolutely right. In the short term, for their problem, you jumping in and helping them is the easiest solution. And the other thing is, we all tend to be a bit self-interested. We all tend to look at the problem that we have and think that it is the most important problem because we have it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so, when they are waiting to get help and they need help to take these radiographs, they need help to draw this blood, they need help to get these charges put into the computer, whatever they need help with, they have a strong bias towards wanting to solve this specific problem.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so they push that forward. Starting with compassion is key. Right? These are not bad people. They're not being jerks. And I think it's easy to be like, why don't they see value in me? Look, man, they're just busy. You're taking this too personally. They're just busy and they're just trying to do their job.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And honestly, most of them are working shorthanded. And that's stressful for anybody. So this person is under stress trying to do a lot of things, just understand where they're coming from. That doesn't mean that you have to jump in and do it. And we're going to talk about how we set ourselves up for success in that regard.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But at least, it's just, everything is easier if you don't take it personally that they're asking. And just understand. Yeah. That's why they feel this way. And this is why I feel this way. And this is what's going on. And no one is the bad guy and no one's trying to be the bad guy. Just put all that stuff aside.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. I agree. You have to have compassion to not take it personally.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Because the second that you take it personally, that's when it turns from mild frustration in the moment that you've said no, into a thing of some degree. Whether it's that person is just now ticked off and is in a bad mood for the rest of the day, or they then are like, it builds. It builds when we take it personally.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I think that for me is like the self-awareness. And compassion place like this is where you have to have empathy for them and empathy for yourself and force yourself to take a step backwards and tell yourself, and believe me, I've been there in the moment. This is not about you. T
Dr. Andy Roark:
Totally.
Stephanie Goss:
It's not about you. Don't take it personally.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. That's exactly right. And people get frustrated and they're like, these people have no idea what I do. That's true. [crosstalk 00:16:23]. They don't have an idea what you do. You go into the office and you close your door and they have as much of an idea of what you do as you had an idea of what the manager did before you became the manager.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's it. That shouldn't be something that makes us angry. That should be something that makes us compassionate. And when we say, they just have no idea what compounds this. And this is why this is so important to talk about. You and I have absolutely seen people who have been just handcuffed by an inability to get past this and get off the floor.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Like guys, the number one career limiting situation that I see for managers and medical directors, is the inability to work on the business. Because they're so fixated on working in the business. And that's it. How many practices out there are just treading water because the leadership is seeing appointments all day, instead of actually leading and growing the business.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Solving the problems that would make the appointments more of efficient and more, I don't know, more likely to achieve great client, patient outcomes and more lucrative for the practice. A lot of them. I see so many people who are like, “I don't have time to fix problems because I'm just seeing patients.” And I'm like, that's a bad choice.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's a bad choice. And again, and it's not your role to see patients. It's your role to lead the practice and take care of things at an organizational level. If you are doing individual work, when it's your job to run the organization, you're doing the wrong thing. And there's no path out of there.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And everyone wants to say like, “Oh, if I just work on the floor a little bit harder, then I'll get time to go and do the management.” I'm like, “No, you won't. Never happens.” Here's the thing, if you jump in and do the management, then life on the floor for everyone is going to get easier.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But you have to believe that. And a lot of people, especially when they came up from the floor, they don't believe it. They either don't believe it because they never been in a practice where they had strong leadership that was really able to make things happen. They don't believe it because of the long progression that it takes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's funny, there are very few things in leadership. We always like to believe that there are wins that we can go in and we can do something on Monday and by Friday, people will be celebrating our genius and our work. Like that doesn't happen. It really is a long time. But what happens is, two years later, people look back and go, “This place is a different place to work.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's amazing, but you don't get that immediate positive pat on the back, that reward of when you held the cap for the blood draw, and people go, “Hey, thanks buddy. Really appreciate you jumping in.” People aren't like, “Hey, thanks a lot for working on those standard operating protocols and job descriptions. You really, boy, that was great.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
But the truth is the standard operating procedures and the job descriptions across the organization had an exponentially greater impact, than you holding one single catch for a blood draw.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But this things are hard to see.
Stephanie Goss:
I think the last piece of that that you didn't address is that they're not empowered to do it. And I see this a lot where the expectation that is set for the role is that you lead, and work on the business and you do all of this stuff. And you're being asked to work in a role capacity, whether it's at the front desk or as a technician or as a doctor.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think the empowerment piece is a big piece of the conversation. And it's not exclusive to corporate practice. I hear the conversation a lot for people who are managers or medical directors and leading in a corporate environment. But I will also tell you, I have seen and worked in private practice where, I have not been empowered by the practice owner to do the actual job that they've hired me to do, because the expectation is also that I'm doing this other thing.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think there has to be a conversation about what is realistic. And this is a giant soapbox for me because I think you and I both align very much so that it is an unrealistic expectation.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
To ask someone to do a full-time job, leading a practice in a truly administrative role, and also work a majority of the time in a role in the practice. It's a lose, lose situation for that person. And it's also a lose, lose situation for the team. And so I think the empowerment piece is the last piece of that triangle that has to be talked about.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, it's funny. It's become a bit that you and I do. It is how many times have we tag teamed and beat up people that we love. Like the leaders, the practice owners, the medical directors who come to us. And we say to them this thing where they'll say, I got a practice manager and I got my head tech and I gave them a job to do, and I gave them a job description.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then you look at them in their face and say, did you give them time to do the job that you gave to them? And they just look back and you can see the gears turning. And I've seen it so times now. I try not to enjoy it, but I do. I enjoy the painful growth that this person is having.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You know what I mean? And it's good for them. And they have to. And trust me, I have that same painful growth. It's leader-like. We all grow. Growth is painful and it's uncomfortable. Especially like, we all like to think that we just hear the right answer and we just get it immediately. There's a lot of things where we just have to sit with them for a while.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And this is one of the things that so many people sit with is they'll say, “Well, I made this job description and I got this person. And I handed it off to my technician and I made them the head technician.” Or, “I made the CSR into the office manager. And they're supposed to be handling this.” And they'll say, “They're supposed to be handling this.” And then we will say, “Did you give them time to handle this?”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And they're like, “No.” And I'm like, making the job description and saying all the things, but then not having time to do the things, that's not any better than not making the job description. Because it probably just makes them feel worse because now they know they're failing in a thing. As opposed to before, they were just doing the work and we're happy with that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so, I think you're totally right. Part of it is the empowerment. Hey, you have the ability to do these things, but are we giving them the time, the capacity to actually carry these things out? The answer for a lot of this is no. And what that really does, that sets up a really interesting conversation between the medical director, the practice owner, and the manager. Or between the manager and the head technician or the lead CSR or whatever.
Dr. Andy Roark:
When the lead CSR says to the manager, “Hey, you have these things you want me to do. And we've decided their priorities and they're really important. Help me figure out when I'm supposed to do this stuff.” And that should not be an earth-shaking mind-blowing conversation opener, but it is for a lot of people.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And they go, “I don't know.” And said we'll get into that in the action steps but, no, I think you're exactly right. And again, nobody's bad. I feel like I talk about this and people go, because they see themselves in it. Let me just be honestly, a hundred percent candid. Guys, I run my team. And the things that I give to them and then later on, they'll say, “When am I supposed to do this?” And I go, “Oh, yeah. Sorry.” I'm bad about this.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. We are.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I just assume people are going to get it done and if they can't get it done, they're going to let me know. And I think that that is a dangerous assumption and it's one that I am so bad about making. And so, I think when I say I enjoy seeing leaders have this pain for growth, it's because it's commiseration. You know what I mean? It's like, uh-huh, you also have to feel this pain that I feel.
Stephanie Goss:
Well. And I joke and say, it's because I have no filter, but it's also because I have been in that position on both sides of the coin. And so I ask the question because I know how painful it is on both sides. And I also know that I have never, in my personal experience, been able to solve this problem without, I call that piece of it, the elephant in the room. Like until you address that, you're trying to manage up to unrealistic expectations, and you're set up to fail.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, we talk on the podcast a lot about, what are the building blocks to have some of these conversations and approach some of these. And this is very much one of those things where you have to look at yourself and say, how have I been set up to fail as the manager?
Stephanie Goss:
And the number one culprit in my experience is that you're not actually empowered to do what you're supposed to be doing. There's unrealistic expectations about how you're spending your time and what you're supposed to be accomplishing. Or on the flip side, there's unrealistic expectations on your team's part.
Stephanie Goss:
And so your team, and that's where the taking it personally comes in here. Look, when your team is mad and frustrated, because they're shorthanded. And they're just bitter that you're not helping them and you're doing other things. They don't know what your job is. They don't care what your job is. And you can waste your time and energy. And I approached it this way on more than one occasion, trying to explain to them what my job was and why it was so important. At the end of the day, it still doesn't matter. They still don't care.
Stephanie Goss:
And that comes off as mean, and everybody gets offended by it. But the reality is, they don't care. It doesn't change their day radically to understand what your job is. Your job is to figure out how do I help them solve their problem and eliminate some of the barriers to move them beyond this piece of it. And so in that regard, we have set them up to fail when there aren't clear communications and expectations about what your job is.
Stephanie Goss:
And that's the piece I think that a lot of people leave out. Is they're like, well, the manager has this big, important job. They're in charge of HR and payroll and running the practice. But team doesn't understand that on a granular level. And so the step because people are like, I don't know how to explain all of the things that I possibly could do to the team.
Stephanie Goss:
The step that most of us miss is communicating the expectations to the team of what they can expect from you. And this is a great example of that. Look, the team should know when you're shorthanded, when do you jump in and when do you not. That should be an expectation. It could be an unwritten rule of thumb, but I have on a personal level, my own barometer that I use to say, “Okay, are they truly drowning?”
Stephanie Goss:
And the long-term effects of them drowning here, or a patient dying because there is improper supervision or someone just absolutely losing their minds and walking out the door today. Like in a split second, measure that in my own brain and decide, is this truly a moment where it is more effective for me to step in and help them with the thing, or is it more important for me to do my job so that I can finish the interview. So that I can hire the extra body. So I can do the other things. Right?
Stephanie Goss:
And communicating a measure of expectation to them about that decision-making process. I think is really, really important, and it's a piece of the process that we skip a lot of the time. Because we focus from a headspace perspective on, we've got to get them to understand what my job is. But that's not actually, I don't think how you solve this problem.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I agree with that. We're going to talk about how to try that. And I think that you should at least make a passing attempt at it. And there are some ways that can make it successful, but I completely agree with you. There's not a scenario where they say, I'm not going to ask that person who's wearing scrubs, and standing there with her hands in her pockets for help, because I know at a deep level, how important what her main job. That's not the answer.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The answer is that you as the manager too, and this is the mental judo I talked about at the beginning, you have to believe in the value of managing as opposed to working as a technician. I don't mean a vet tech, I mean a technician and someone who actually puts their hands on the thing and does the work.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so I think that's the biggest thing that I see. And it's a perspective change. It's a short view change. The classic example of this is the independent practice. And you've got a veterinarian, who's also the practice owner and they have this manager. And they got a manager because there were enough things that they needed someone to do that aren't technician work. So they gave this person a title.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But they don't really understand what that role is or know how to use that person. And so in their mind, this person is support staff with a fancy title who has to get these other things done. And I go, “Buddy, you are fundamentally missing the boat. That is not what this is.” And the best analogy I can give, which is not very good. I don't think. It's like a chessboard.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then when I say that technicians, meaning people who work with their hands or pawns, don't get me wrong. I mean that just analogy of a chessboard. And the doctors are technicians as well. It's the staff. And you're trying to take this person and make them a Bishop. You're trying to make them a piece beyond something that has a greater impact and influence.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's funny how many people don't want a Bishop. They just want another pawn. And you go, “This is dumb.” You're taking something that could be very helpful and transformative, and using it in a, not unimportant, but a very small scoped way. And it's like misusing your tools.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so I think the managers themselves have to see themselves as managers. And have to have that mental perspective of, I play at the organizational level. It's my job to make this business run more smoothly, not the individual patient experience.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's not my job. And I know when I say it that clearly people are going to recoil. And I think I push that hard because so many people are on the other side. And they're like, “No, you should totally jump in here with this specific pet.” I'm like, “You should not be practicing at the individual level. You should be practicing at the organizational/business level.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And when you keep getting pulled down to the individual level, especially if that means you're not getting to do the organizational level, everyone is being negatively impacted by that. In a very small way that they don't even see, but it's there. And so you have to see it. You have to believe it.
Stephanie Goss:
A hundred percent. Because when you do your job for them, nobody wins in the long term. I truly believe that. And there's two really big pieces of that for me. One is, if you are not observing them, but you're just doing the actual job, the team doesn't ever get any lessons from you in how they can improve. You don't have that 30,000 mile view if you're on the field. You can't step back and have that perspective.
Stephanie Goss:
And the second piece is, I always say this because I know the very painful place that results when you do this. When you do the job long enough and you jump in and save them over and over again, not only does that become your business model, but you wind up with a team that cannot function without your intervention or involvement. And that is the worst-case scenario for everybody.
Stephanie Goss:
And that is one of the biggest dangers in this moment. And that's where I was talking about, like I have to, in order to truly grow as a leader, you have to develop your own internal split-second decision-making tool to figure out and factor for yourself, is this a case where I need to say no, because if I say, yes, I'm just going to keep doing the job. And I'm not going to actually be able to help them grow and learn and move beyond as a team.
Stephanie Goss:
That is one of the hardest things to learn how to do. And be totally vulnerable and honest with you guys, I've been doing this a long time and at my practice even right before I left I was so guilty of this. Because it's hard when you have the skillset and you can do the things. The path of least resistance for you is to put on the cape and be the hero and save the day and jump in and hold that pet. Or scrub in and help in surgery, or sit at the front desk and cover because somebody's out again.
Stephanie Goss:
It feels really good to feel like you're helping the team in the very short run. And in the long run, it feels really, really crappy because I have never not had it be a situation where ultimately the team gets super frustrated and they're angry with you. And then you're dealing with the fallout of the fact that you've been trying to do what you think is right. Which has helped them and saved the day. And they're still pissed at you. That's your lose-lose situation.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree. You want to take a little break here and then we'll come back and get into some action steps.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep. I love it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss, you got a second and talk about GuardianVets?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. What do you want to talk about?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed because the phones never stop ringing. And I'm sure you hear from these people as well. Our caseload is blowing up and the doctors are busy and the phones just don't stop.
Stephanie Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip a switch and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk and they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments and give them support. And it really is a godsend.
Stephanie Goss:
Pre-pandemic it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after hours call help. But at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that they're offering help during the daytime as well, which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices because everybody is shorthanded. Everybody is drowning in phone calls. And so we talk about it. We've talked about GuardianVets a lot on the podcast and every time we do, we always get somebody who says, what is that?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use some help on the phones or up the front desk, check them out, it's guardianvets.com. And if you mention our podcast me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So check it out guardianvets.com.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, you? What's you got happening on your calendar in March because the Uncharted Veterinary community has lots of things coming up that I don't think you're going to want to miss. First step in March, we have an awesome workshop by my friend Dr. Saye Clement. Saye is going to be talking about client curation with us. She's going to teach us how to learn to identify the types of clients that you want for your practice. And then what are things that you and your team can do to attract those kind of clients specifically.
Stephanie Goss:
It's happening March 13th at 12:00 PM Eastern time, 9:00 AM Pacific, and it is a two hour workshop. So put that on your clinic calendar, take a lunch break, go in late for the day if you're here on the West Coast. It is $99. It's free as always for our Uncharted members. And you can sign up at unchartedvet.com/events.
Stephanie Goss:
And then in the back half of the month on March 24th, my dear friend, Bret Canfield is doing a presentation that I am super pumped about. He and I are going to do some tag teaming on this. I am his wing man, moderator, and I am so excited for this because I went to Bret at the beginning of the year and said, “Hey, you are the person that comes to mind when I think about this topic, because you live this and you help teams breathe this. And I want to bring this to Uncharted and to the veterinary community at large.”
Stephanie Goss:
And that is the idea of more than an EAP. What can we do to make wellness happen in our practices? Brett is going to talk to us about the benefits of programs like EAPs but beyond that, what are some ways and things that we can do to create sustainability for our teams? Again, this is a two-hour workshop. It's $99 for the general public and it's free for our Uncharted members. It's happening on March 24th at 2:00 PM Eastern time. So 11:00 AM Pacific. So this one will hit my West Coasters lunchtime and mid-afternoon for those East Coasters.
Stephanie Goss:
It's a two-hour one. So again, make sure to check out unchartedvet.com/events for all of the upcoming events and registration. And I want to take a quick second to pause before we head back to the podcast. I have to show some serious gratitude to our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital. Andy and I have wanted to do transcripts for the blog for a while because we've had multiple colleagues reach out to us and say, “Hey, I've heard great things about the podcast. I would love to listen, but this is not accessible to me.”
Stephanie Goss:
And while we were trying to figure that out our friends over at Banfield stepped up and said, “Hey, we see you. And this is something that fits our values and our culture as a practice. We want to increase diversity and inclusion in veterinary medicine, and we would love to help with that.” And so they stepped in but in a big way and are sponsoring all of our transcripts for 2022.
Stephanie Goss:
So if you know someone who hasn't accessed the podcast, because there weren't transcripts available previously, send them to unchartedvet.com/blog. They can find all of the transcribed podcasts for 2022. And they can also find out more or you can find out more about all of the things that Banfield Pet Hospital is doing to increase diversity, inclusion and equity in veterinary medicine. And now back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right? Well, let's start to unpack this, shall we?
Stephanie Goss:
Sounds good.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right. We often start our action steps with expectations. And I think that that's where we go here.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
We talked before about, the people that you work with are not going to understand what you do and that's not the goal. That doesn't mean they can't have expectations about how available you're going to be. And I think a lot of times when I say set expectations, they're like, that means I'm going to explain to everybody all the things that I'm doing. No, just, we need to let them know. Especially if you have been on the floor a lot. It is not wrong to step up at the staff meeting and say, I need to give you guys a heads up. I know that you're working hard.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Our business is growing. We are moving to shift and handle some different things and to evolve. I am not going to be as available on the floor as I have been in the past. And I just want you guys to all hear that and just be aware that you're probably not going to be able to pull me in the way that you have in the past. And that's just starting to set expectations.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You might go full on with them and say, guys I'm no longer be able to jump in and work on the floor. The management piece of this has just gotten too big and I'm going to be putting in my time there. And so I'm not going to be wearing scrubs. I'm not going to be able to jump in and do work on the floor. Please know that I love you, but I'm not going to be available. And then you're not telling them that when they're holding a screaming cat.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right. When they're standing there with lead apron and thyroid protector on going, “Hey, we could just get this done if you would jump in here.” You're letting them know when there aren't any patients in the building.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“Hey, this is coming.” And oftentimes that is the best thing to do is, break the news to them when they're not panicking. And then when you gently enforce the barrier later on, it's not news to them. So start off by setting expectations and just saying, “Hey, this is what you can expect. Things are going to be a little bit different going forward.”
Stephanie Goss:
And I think in my experience, it's really important to set expectations and start in a very small and measurable way for them. So for example, if the team is shorthanded right now, this is not the time to have the big grand conversation about my job as a manager is really involved and takes a lot of time. So I'm going to be shifting my time and energy to that, right?
Stephanie Goss:
That is an important piece of the conversation, but they're not going to absorb that in any way, shape or form if they're panicked in the moment. And so for me, I would say the wins come easier when you say, “Hey guys, I need your help in the next week. I'm looking at the schedule, we've got three people out sick. We are shorthanded. I am trying to complete interviews so I can reschedule these interviews and I can step in and I can put myself on the schedule or I can finish the interview so we hopefully can get another person starting sooner rather than later.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sometimes it's about giving them simple choices. Sometimes you might not give them a choice at all. You might just tell them this is the thing, but being very specific and granular about the choice and the transparency I think is really, really helpful. Because when they are experiencing the situation that causes that frustration over feeling like they're shorthanded and you're not helping zooming out to that big picture is a leap that often most teams as a whole collectively have a really hard time making.
Stephanie Goss:
So start with a small specific piece, “Hey, this week.” “Hey, the next two weeks, this is what my schedule change is going to be and why?” There's a big, we have to change our payroll system and I want to make sure you guys are going to get paid. And so here's what that means for my schedule. I just wan to let you guys know, because I know we're shorthanded and I know in the past, historically, I've jumped in and I've stepped to role and I've worked on the floor, in order for this to happen I cannot do that.
Stephanie Goss:
And I just want everybody to know so we're all on the same page before we head into the next two weeks. Right. It's about being very specific and clear and transparent with them about a specific situation.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree. Education is key after expectations, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Andy Roark:
They don't know what you do. And if you are a black box, they're going to continue to be frustrated. And I see that a lot. This does not mean that you are going to show them your to-do list. Because I have 100% same people will just be like, and then I had to do this, and then I had to do this. The staff's like, we don't care. There is some level of information sharing when you say guys going into this week, my top priorities in the manager office are going to be to work on hiring.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I really want to push this and get it done. We're going to be trying out some new strategies to get people in, but my work is going to be on expanding the team to reduce the workload on you guys. So, sharing just in broad terms, what are you doing so that they can at least say, “Hey, she's not coming in and helping us on radiographs. She's working on hiring.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Just that level is fine. The other piece to this education. And I think you really hit on it very nicely Stephanie is, they care most about what you are doing in the context of helping them.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Which means-
Stephanie Goss:
The what's in it for me?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Exactly. Right. And I want them to feel that way. I want them to believe that the sacrifice they are making by not asking me to jump in on the floor it's an investment that they are making. That's really where my head goes is, you guys are not going to ask me to jump in and do stuff or you're not going to get upset if I say no, because you know that I am doing something that is going to be beneficial for you. And that is the way you look at people, and again, everybody's self-interested.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You know I said, everybody looks at what they're trying to do and getting home at the end of the day to their family, safe and sound and happy, so that they can enjoy their life. That's how they look at it. And so how do I make it so that not asking me for help in the moment is in your best interest. And I'm just going to think about messaging. And again, this is not a big deal.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm not trying to shore this up and make up PowerPoint presentation where they do the math and figure it out. But I have to give them at least something where they can go, okay, it's possible that I'm better off not asking Andy because he is at least working on these things that I think will benefit me or make my life easier.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so those are the keys for me with education. Give them something so that you are not a black box and they have some idea what's going on, do your best to frame it in a way where they see value for them in letting you get your work done.
Stephanie Goss:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yep. I totally agree.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So, yeah, beyond that once you set the expectations and you give them some education, you need to make yourself inaccessible. And there's a couple of different ways to do this. And I think this is the thing that just screws people up as the managers who are like, I don't have time to do all the work. And I say, well, what do you do? And they're like, I wear scrubs and walk through the treatment room on a very regular basis.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I'm like, Hmm, I see why you may be having headaches here. You know? Big drums that I beat really hard. The biggest bad habit that I see in managers is multitasking. And again, it's because they come from the floor and they're like, I can do all the things. And they are leading people, growing the organization, answering a continuously ringing phone, walking through the treatment area where people are shouting questions at them, and asking them to do things.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I'm like, I'm sorry, buddy. You are wildly inefficient right now. When it comes down to getting your work done, this is a terrible way to get your work done. And so you and I talk about time management and we talk about blocking your time. I am a big believer in work blocks and time blocks. You should put a block on your calendar that says, I'm doing a payroll at this time.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And you should not be walking through the clinic, and you should not be taking phone calls, you should get payroll done. And when you get it done, then it will be out of your way. And then you can take phone calls, and then you could walk through the clinic and you may be able to jump in and help people. Right? But you have got to block this thing off. I'm a big fan of managers having some work from home time.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I mean, how many managers do you know who are like, I do payroll or inventory management from home over the weekend. And I'm like, that you shouldn't be doing over the weekend. But the point is they're like, I can get it done in half the time if I do it at home. Yes. That's true. And so why don't you do it from home every week or every other week? Right?
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Block that time. I'm a big fan of my manager being at home for a half a day, once a week. And just say, these are the things that I knock out and I do it and no one comes and gets me, and the phone doesn't ring and I get these things done. Multitasking is a lie. It's not true. It's not efficient. People can't do it. It ultimately makes the quality of your work less and it takes more time. And so blocking that time, I'm not available. I'm doing these things. That stuff is so important.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, to add to that, I have some food for thought and I might blow some people's minds and I might make some people mad when I say this, but I will say that when I think about starting in a practice and I think about moving up into a leadership role, part of why I was given my job was because the doctor, owner of the practice was getting interrupted with the stuff and the things, and they couldn't be the doctor, or they couldn't be off on their day off because they were getting these stuff and the things, they were getting interrupted.
Stephanie Goss:
So the manager role gets layered in there because now you can interrupt the manager, that's your go-to person. So instead of asking the owner doctor or the leader doctor who's doing the important things, you're going to ask the manager. And that is where I think a lot of us have been set up to fail on a fundamental level. And that's some of what I was talking about in terms of empowerment.
Stephanie Goss:
You should be able to say to your team, “Hey, don't interrupt me for the next hour, because I'm doing payroll and I need to get it done.” And I will tell you having been in this position and having said just that, walked through the building, told everybody I'm going to go, I'm shutting my door. I'm doing payroll. Unless the building's on fire and you're trying to tell me to evacuate, don't come interrupt me. And then someone will come and knock on the door and they're like, but Mrs. Smith is on the phone and she's really angry, so I don't want to interrupt the doctor.
Stephanie Goss:
So I need you to know what I'm supposed to do with her. Well, when we think about what we've trained our teams to do in terms of not interrupting the doctor, the step that we miss a lot of the time is giving them that same training for us as the managers. There needs to be some boundaries like Mrs. Smith literally does not need me to get on the phone with her right this second.
Stephanie Goss:
If the team has been trained and empowered to say, you know what Mrs. Smith, she's in a meeting right now. Let me let her know what you and I have just talked about and I will have her call you back as soon as she is done, or by two o'clock this afternoon, or however you choose to empower the team to communicate that. But the answer is we have set ourselves up for failure.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think it trickles down from the reason why a lot of, especially in private practice, why a lot of managers got their role in the first place to your point is you've got an owner doctor who's like, I'm doing too many things. I can't do all of these things. So I'm going to put a manager in place. And then we don't set up those same boundaries and expectations. And that's where we fail to empower them fully in a lot of ways.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think it's really important to your point, you could only accomplish those work blocks if one of two things happens. If you leave the building and you're completely out of sight out of mind, whether you're working from home or you go to the Starbucks down the street and work for an hour or whatever that looks like, they literally can't see you. They can't find you. So unless they come walk down the street to Starbucks and find you, you could be uninterrupted in a place like that.
Stephanie Goss:
Or we've set up the expectation that like, look, when I say this, I really mean it. Because I will tell you guys so many countless times. That knock on my door happened and I was like, I could just tell them to go away and I could coach them in the moment. And I could remind them of all the things they're supposed to say to Mrs. Smith. But the path of least resistance to me as the manager right now feels like let me just get on the phone and solve this problem so I can move on with my day.
Stephanie Goss:
And I give in to that. And that is I think on a fundamental level one of the single most difficult lessons that I had to learn as a leader. And it is one that I am still learning to this day, I will tell you. Learning the lesson that you have to have the self-control to lead and not do the thing. No one is going to stop you from doing the thing. They're always going to say, thank you for jumping in and helping this patient. Thank you for talking to Mrs. Smith.
Stephanie Goss:
They might not even thank you, but they are going to continue to ask you to do it if you do it. The only one who can stop that cycle is you. And that is one of the hardest skills to master as a leader.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. That's about being intentional in making yourself into the manager, right? It's seeing the value in the role. And then I think your example of the communication empowerment and what should they say to the angry person on the phone that's spot on. You have to train them on what to say when you're not available.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's so funny because we don't. We go, I don't have time to train them. I guess I'm just going to keep being interrupted during my job for the rest of my life. I understand the short term math is, it's easier for me to get the phone. The long term math is for God's sakes train these people so that they are empowered to say something.
Dr. Andy Roark:
To set boundaries for you so that you can then do the work. And I'm like, boy, when you do the math on that the investment is a no brainer, but it's amazing how few people do it. And so, yeah. You're going to have to talk to them about what to say when you are in your work head downtime. But do it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Because it's no different. It's been a long time since I've been in a clinic where if a client called and said, I need to talk to the doctor that the team's answer would be, okay, let me get them for you. That's not a thing that happens. Right? We have created protocols and processes to deal with that situation.
Stephanie Goss:
And it's amazing to me, how many instances when someone says, whether it's client or a member of the team, I need the manager or let me get Stephanie, it's amazing how many of us fail to have those same processes in protocols. And you can't do the work blocks. You can't chunk your time. You can't do what you were talking about, which is stop the multitasking and just really lean in and focus and get a single thing done.
Stephanie Goss:
You can't do that if those safety mechanisms are not in place and the doctor doing their doctoring work is just as important as you doing the work to run the practice. And so it would challenge those of you guys who are like, well, my role is to be the one who can be interrupted because the doctor can't, I challenge you to rethink that. Because it's not healthy and you're not going to succeed in the long run if you don't.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I completely agree with that. I think that's super important. Big takeaways for me, you need to be intentional about your time as a manager. You need to recognize that it takes time to do your actual work and you need to believe that the time of a manager is more valuable than the time of an individual technical person on the ground doing the work because you're working on the whole business and they're working on one patient inside of that business.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Doesn't mean that what they're doing not critically important, but it just means you have a different job and a different responsibility. And if you abandon your job to jump in and help the individual patients inside the practice, in the long run, everyone is going to suffer compared to where they could have been had you stated your post as a leader and continued to build the practice and build the systems. Set expectations.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Let people know this is coming. Give them some training. Give them some tools to enable you to not be available. If it's the constant interruptions. Set clear visual barriers to them getting you. The best one is, you're not there. That's a clear barrier. I can't harass him he's not here. Short of that, consider not wearing scrubs. If you don't want to be doing technical work, don't wear scrubs. Wear manager clothes, wear nice clothes and just say, I can't jump in today guys.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And people won't generally ask you when they see you in your slacks. If you'll get down on the floor and wrestle this big [inaudible 00:56:37] dog, some people will, most people won't. You're sending them a clear signal about what your role is and what you're planning to do today with your time. Get a big piece of red poster board and tape it up onto your door that says, “Do not disturb. I'm not kidding, Donna. I'm serious. Don't do it.” And put it up.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I have people who are like, I don't have an office. Go and get big ass, air traffic controller, headphones. The huge nozzles that you stick on the side of your head, and they're noise canceling headphones. And people are like, oh, I have earpods to do that. Don't use them. I want something enormous. I don't care if they block sound, go get safety ear protection from the hardware store that's big neon orange and say to the team when I have this on, do not bother me.
Dr. Andy Roark:
These are my magic I am not here headphones. Or ear protection that I am putting on. And that sounds ridiculous, but it really is. I don't have an office to go into and close the door. So I'm putting this on my body, in my head and please do not bother me when I have these things on. And just try to create space like that. But guys that's the key to it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. The other trick that I used for years when I didn't have an office was a sign that would go on the back of my chair. Right? Like Andy was saying, you put the big sign up on your office door. If you have one great. If you don't, you need to make sure that people approaching you from any direction are going to realize that you are in a bubble. And so whatever that looks like in your space, the earphones are great because to Andy's point, people can't see the earbuds when they're in your ears.
Stephanie Goss:
I can't tell you how many times I would be wearing earbuds and someone would come up, and I'm on a call, I'm talking sometimes even to a client and someone comes up and starts talking to me because they have no idea that I'm on the phone. That is the downside to creating the ability to talk with a little tiny thing in our ear. Right?
Stephanie Goss:
And so thinking about how do I visually cue them? The headphones are great. The sign on the back of your chair. At one point I literally would wear a sign hanging around my neck and wear one on the back of my chair. That was, unless the building is on fire-
Dr. Andy Roark:
Like one of those sandwich boards?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Don't interrupt me. For years they had a hanging sign that went around my neck. And it just was like, I can't. This is how I can visually cue you. And that came out of a conversation with the team because they would say, oh, we don't realize that you're on the phone. Okay. So how do we solve that visually? I think that that is so important.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think the last thing for me from a solving it perspective is, you're going to disappoint them, that's the best word I can think of, to some degree when you say no because they are looking at you, they're like, can you help? And you say, no. There's going to be some level of disappointment. So the challenge that I would give to all of you who are struggling with this is, tell them what you can do for them and be intentional about how you do it.
Stephanie Goss:
And so when we were really shorthanded and I was struggling so hard because we were shorthanded, look, I came up from the front desk, but I became a technician. I went to school, I had the skills on both sides. There were so many days where I was like, look, I'm shorthanded in both departments. And I could jump in and solve this problem, whether it was them asking me or me just knowing that was the solution. It's a really hard position to be in.
Stephanie Goss:
And so look at it and be intentional because if I'm doing that job, then I can't do the interviews. Right? I can't get more bodies in place. I can't update the payroll system so everybody gets paid. The answer cannot be that you're just going to do the work on the floor and take all of that work home with you and do it at night until two o'clock in the morning. Or work a 60 hour week, week after week after week.
Stephanie Goss:
You can do that in the short term, and sometimes it's warranted. That's what you get paid a salary to do. Because sometimes you have to work a 50 hour week to get something done, and that's the trade off. That should not be the norm. And so for most of us we make that the norm. And so the best way, I'm going to challenge you guys to approach this, tell them what you can do for them. So when you are in that shorthanded space, it's like, look.
Stephanie Goss:
I sometimes had to break it down on a week by week level. Look, this week I've looked at the schedule. The two days who are the shortest are Monday and Friday. So I'm going to be available to you guys Monday and Friday to jump in wherever you need me, whether it's for the whole day or three quarters of the shift or whatever I can give them, and Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday from these hours to these hours or for the whole day or whatever, I'm completely unavailable.
Stephanie Goss:
Because this is what I'm doing instead. I'm scheduling interviews. I'm doing the payroll thing. Be clear and specific and you can't just tell them once. This is not a one and done. You have to tell them and you have to visually give them a queue. So whether that's posting your schedule up in the hallway where everybody can see it, putting it on slack every morning, “Hey reminder guys, I'm available today. I'm not available tomorrow.”
Stephanie Goss:
You got to be consistent and continue to give them that visual transparency to what your schedule is and what you can do for them. That is the only thing that I ever found in the moment to truly get them past that disappointment and get them back on the even ground where they're like, oh yeah, okay. I see you, you are communicating in a way that is making sense to me. And so they might still be disappointed, but it lessen that I feel like significantly so.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I think that's great. I think that's a really good approach. Tell them what you can do. It's almost like you can't be all things to all people.
Stephanie Goss:
Funny.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's so weird.
Stephanie Goss:
So weird.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Guys, thanks so much for being here. Guys, I hope this was helpful. Stephanie, thanks for talking to this with me.
Stephanie Goss:
This was a good one. Have a great week everybody take care.
Stephanie Goss:
While getting that's a rap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website the address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag. Or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.