This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…
Have you ever worked in a practice where there is a hot-headed boss? Someone who is reactive? Someone who flies off the handle or is extremely emotional in their reactions to things that don't seem to warrant that level of reaction? A lot of us have worked with someone like that. The question this week on the podcast is what do we do when the hot-head is in charge? Join Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss as they tackle a fantastic question from the mailbag about what to do when the manager of the practice is the hot-head and their fellow leader in the practice isn't their direct boss who can hold them accountable for their behaviors. Let's get into this…
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Episode Transcript
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Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Have you ever worked in a practice where there's a hothead in the building? I think a lot of us can raise our hands and say, yes, to that one. This episode is a little bit different, because we are talking about a very important question that came into us through the mailbag, and that is, what do we do when the hothead is the one in charge?
Stephanie Goss:
This was a question about a medical director wondering what to do when they have a practice manager who is the one who is the hothead. They are reactive. They come from a place of emotion rather than logics, when people question them or their judgment, or they perceive that someone is questioning them. And this medical director is wondering, what in the heck do I do with this? How do I get the team to understand that this is not acceptable behavior? How do I change the behavior, especially when I'm not actually this person's boss? This one's going to be a fun one, so let's get into this.
Meg:
And now the Uncharted Podcast.
Andy Roark:
And we are back, it's as me, Dr. Andy Roark, and Stephanie, feeling hot, hot, hot, Goss.
Stephanie Goss:
How's it going, Andy?
Andy Roark:
It's frustrating. I'm having that day where I have worked all day, and I have finished nothing. Nothing has been finished. Everything has ended with me running into a roadblock that requires waiting for someone else, or needing to make an edit after I show it to someone or… Yeah, just having to go back to the drawing board or us running out of the thing that we need. Like, I'm like, “This is finished.” They're like, “No, we're out of printer ink. It's not finished, because I can't print it, until the ink is here.” I have busted my hump today. And if someone's like, “What did you finish?” The answer is-
Stephanie Goss:
Nothing.
Andy Roark:
Absolutely nothing.
Stephanie Goss:
I hate days like that.
Andy Roark:
I took my child all the way to school. If that matches the rest of my day, Hannah would be like in the neighborhood somewhere, halfway there.
Stephanie Goss:
Or I was going to say, you got all the way home, and then they called and said, “Hey, she doesn't have her lunch or her permission slip,” or something, right?
Andy Roark:
That's right. Like, “Darn, I have to go take her lunch to school.” That's exactly where we're at. That would have been 100% par for the course today. I'm super loving the work I'm doing, but I just wish it would end.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man, I'm sorry. Well, those days are frustrating, because on one hand you feel really productive, because you're just chugging through and you're getting shit done. And on the other hand-
Andy Roark:
I'm super impressed, with the things that I've done.
Stephanie Goss:
… you don't feel like you've done anything.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. The work that I have done today is good work. I've worked hard. And if someone said, “Show me what you did today.” I could lay down a lot of things, and they would be like, “Oh man, you put some thought into this, and you some research here. And this is going to, very soon, be something that you're proud of.” I'm like, “Yep. It's just-
Stephanie Goss:
Not today.
Andy Roark:
… not finished.” Exactly. Right, not today. Not today.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, man.
Andy Roark:
Oh, man. So that;s me, how about you? How were things with… You woke up with a migraine.
Stephanie Goss:
It's one of those days. This has been the longest, coldest, wettest spring we have had in the eight years that I have lived here. It is still pouring down rain, every day. But we have started having mornings where we wake up and it teases us like it's going to be sunny, and it's bright and there's blue sky, and then it starts pouring. And so I just think that like the shift in the weather and the pollen… The plants are so confused, because they're getting some sunshine, and then it starts pouring again, and there's pollen everywhere. And I woke up this morning and just was like, “Okay, my head feels like it's going to explode.” But other than that things are good. There's lots happening. We are busy, busy, busy, and [inaudible 00:04:03] it's good. It's good. Things are good.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. No, I agree. We are working so hard behind the scenes. People have no idea. We're in stealth mode, banging away, got on a bunch of stuff, let me tell you.
Stephanie Goss:
We've got some stuff coming up in the next couple of weeks that's going to come out and launch or open up. And I am really excited about a lot of the things that are coming.
Andy Roark:
No, me too. All right. We have a good question today. This is one that a lot of people I think have, and this is going to let you and me really geek out on some stuff that we love to talk about. This is a strong suit for the two of us. Yeah, let's get into working with hotheads.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep. So we got a letter in the mailbag from a friend and colleague of ours. And it was so funny, because their first sentence was, how do I calm down the practice hothead? And then the second sentence was, and how do I do that when the hothead is the one in charge? And I started laughing. I was like, oh fantastic. And then they went on to fill us in on the longer version. So this is a practice who has a practice manager, who is the one who is very reactive. And this perception is coming from the team.
Stephanie Goss:
In particular, they are really reactive when they get feedback from anybody on the team. And so they are asking for feedback from the team, and the team feels like when it is being given or when questions are being asked about things that this manager is doing, the manager is reacting from a very emotional place, not from a place of logic at all. So a example that they gave us was, hey, one of the doctors on the team had a question. The manager said they were going to look into it. In the meantime, this doctor emailed some other people to ask to see if anybody knew the answer, and included the manager in the email. And the manager went back to the associate vet and was like, “If you've got something to say to me, say it to my face, don't email my boss.” Very angry that they had emailed anybody else.
Stephanie Goss:
And so the person who wrote this to us is a medical director, so they're working directly with this manager, but they are in the position where they are not actually their boss, which is pretty common in a corporate structure. If you're not the practice owner and you're a medical director, often, the practice manager is being day-to-day managed by someone else. And so this medical director is like, “Look, I've talked to this person about these things. The team is talking to them about it. But at the end of the day, I'm not their direct boss. So I can't hold them accountable in a formal capacity. But I am talking to the team, and I am trying to set the example for the team that some of the things that are being said and done are inappropriate, and the behavior needs to be changed.” And so they were asking, “What else can I do here? I feel like my hands are kind of tied.”
Andy Roark:
Yeah, no, I like this question a lot. And the manager part adds a nice little layer of complexity. It's like an art project, it's got a nice little flare to it. We're not just buildings stick house. No, no, we're-
Stephanie Goss:
We're going to sprinkle some glitter on this one.
Andy Roark:
Exactly. We're make a cupola on top. And that makes me excited about the project. I have been spending too much time with you.
Stephanie Goss:
Or with your D&D nerd friends.
Andy Roark:
Oh, yeah, or with my nerd friends.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it.
Andy Roark:
Don't out my nerd hobbies.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, I'm definitely doing more crafting.
Stephanie Goss:
That's a fairy tale word. I love it.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's true. All right.
Stephanie Goss:
Andy says, “We're moving on now.”
Andy Roark:
We're going to move on now. Past my various hobbies and onto the question at hand, which is-
Stephanie Goss:
Where do we start?
Andy Roark:
… where the heck do we start? Where do we always start, Stephanie?
Stephanie Goss:
We always start with head space.
Andy Roark:
We always start with head space. All right, so usually when we talk to head space, we start talking about getting in the head space to talk to this person. I think we should get in the head space in this case of what do we think about this person? Before we even start to think about how we're going to talk, the first thing we got to do is figure out what are we going to say to them?
Andy Roark:
Why does this happen? Why do we have people who respond emotionally to feedback? Because that's what we're talking about, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Mm-hmm.
Andy Roark:
Okay. So it comes from a couple of reasons. Number one, some of us are massive perfectionists.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And we don't like the idea that someone else thinks we didn't do it right. And that is a huge thing. So is it a perfectionist, and this person doesn't like to be wrong? And I know a lot of people who are like that. The idea that they did something “incorrectly,” they don't like that-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… being pointed out. The other part of this and this especially comes, I see it a lot, whenever I hear, “If you have something to say, say it to my face,” and I have heard that a number of times in my career related to emails that went up the chain.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
Right?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Andy Roark:
That's insecurity.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
That is not perfectionism, and usually in my mind, and the things can go together. But oftentimes that's insecurity, which is basically, “I'm unsecure about my position here in the practice or my authority or my status, and when you talk about me or something I'm related to, I feel like my status is being challenged. And that pushes some emotional buttons for me.”
Andy Roark:
And the last thing is nobody teaches us how to take feedback. I mean, we just don't talk about it. I think about it with my own kids. And I'm like, “Have I told my kids or talked to my kids about how to take feedback?” I hope I've modeled it for them. Because I think that's the only way to really teach it is to take feedback from other people and people see you do it. And they say, “Okay, well, I see this person who I respect and that's how they receive feedback.” So those are my big three things, perfectionism, insecurity, and a lack of modeling or training in how to take feedback. I think those are some of the big reasons that we sort of start to see these behaviors.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think this is a case for me of needing to look at the other person and say, “Okay, their response, whatever that is, seems incongruent with the reaction that I would have that I personally would have, or that I would expect someone to have if they were given this kind of feedback.” And so for me, that is a situation where then I try and ask myself what else could be happening here. Or look at it from the perspective of, I clearly don't have all the information. Because, to your point, there could be multiple reasons why this is happening.
Stephanie Goss:
Maybe this is a trigger for them because they were in a situation previously where something did go wrong. And this isn't that case, but in their heads, the story their subconscious tells them is this situation is the same. And so you have that fight or flight kind of reaction. So for me, it's really about, okay, if this reaction feels wildly disproportionate to how I might react or how I would expect somebody to react, the first question that I want to ask is, what's going on inside their head?
Stephanie Goss:
And I think this is the danger zone, because a lot of times we hypothesize what could be going on, and then we pick something out of that list and make up a story in our own head about why they're reacting. And too often we don't ask them, “Hey, what's going on?” Right> and we don't-
Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
… go to them and ask them to translate what's happening in their brain. And so from a head space perspective, I think it's really important to think, and one of the questions that I have learned to ask myself is what could be going on? And I try and think of reasons why someone might react that way. The danger in that is when you ask yourself those kind of questions, you have to do something with that to try and actually get more information. Otherwise, you're just making up stories in your head and that's going to complicate things even further.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree. I think that there's a split here. Is this a one-off instance or is this-
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
… a pattern of behavior?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, absolutely.
Andy Roark:
So I completely agree, if this is a one-off out of character instance, this person gets mad and that doesn't usually happen, then I think the easy thing to do is to go to them and say, “Hey, that's not like you. What's going on? Or what happened?” And go with compassion and empathy and just a curiosity to understand. And so, yeah, I completely agree with that.
Andy Roark:
The second part of that is when this is a pattern of behavior, and this person consistently does not handle feedback well, at some point you say, hey, it's not a different reason every day. It's just whenever this person gets feedback they consistently don't don't handle it well.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
I think separating those two things of, is this a one-off? Is this a bad time for them? Is this out of character? Or is this a pattern of just not taking any sort of critical feedback well? I think separating those things is important. Really, the other things I'll put in my mind is, this person can grow out of this behavior. And I have a 100% seen people move past this specific behavior. I have worked with people who reacted strongly or emotionally to negative information and negative feedback. And they decided they didn't like that, and they came to realize that they were shooting themselves in the foot, or that they were their own worst enemy, or they made situations significantly worse. And that experience for them allowed them to decide they were going to do better.
Andy Roark:
And this is something that if the person wants to move past, I 100% believe you can move past it. I believe that we can be the masters of our emotions. If people are serious about changing this behavior, they can change it. I don't buy into the idea of, “That's just how I am. I can help it.” Yes, you can help it. But they have to want to help it, which means there is no feedback that I can give, if they don't see the problem. They have to want-
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Andy Roark:
… to change this behavior about themselves. And so to the point of the writer, at the very beginning, I would say to them, “You're right. You are not going to change this person, unless they want to change.” And here's the other thing, it doesn't matter if you are their boss, if they don't see a problem=.
Stephanie Goss:
True story.
Andy Roark:
… you're not going to change them. It doesn't matter. And so really I think if you internalize that, I think that that gives you a lot of options in how to approach it. And ultimately that's the path to success is, “I can't make this person do anything, but I can talk to them honestly about the repercussions of how they receive information and the effect that they're having when they react this way on other people.” I can say to them, “Honestly, this is career limiting,” and it is. “Your ability to move up or to do other things or to expand or to take on more responsibility or be in this role as the hospital grows-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… all those things are limited by your inability to receive critical feedback without getting angry.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And the other thing that I tend to say to the people that I think is helpful, is, and this is true to some degree, “It's not necessarily about the way you respond. It's about the way that your response affects other people, and how they interpret your response.” And so, for whatever reason, I think that's a much more palatable thing than, “You are hurting everyone's feelings.”
Andy Roark:
To say, “Your reaction is being highly scrutinized. And people are really taking it very, very seriously, and are making assumptions that you don't like them or that you are angry and will continue to be angry at them. And it is undermining your relationship with them and their productivity, because they're out for the rest of the day, mentally checked out.” I think that those are helpful ways to approach the conversation that we have and just kind of try to lower the stakes for the individual.
Stephanie Goss:
I think that's a smart distinction. And I think, for me, I agree with you, I think people can grow in this regard, and where I have seen the most growth in my own team and my own experiences have been situations where something has been said to the person that finally unlocked for them. Not so much, it was their behavior, although that was a part of it, but it was how other people were viewing their behavior or the impact that it was having on the other people. That once they saw that really truly heard it and saw it, it was like, “Oh, I never would want to hurt people that way.” They understood that it was coming across in a very negative and a very, in some cases, hurtful way.
Stephanie Goss:
And that, for whatever reason, it was like, the conversation had been had different ways multiple times, I was at the point where it felt like I wasn't getting through to this person. And then there was a conversation where it was unlocked, and they were like, “Oh, other people are perceiving what I'm doing as bullying. I'm perceiving myself as just being angry. And letting off steam and doing what I do.”
Stephanie Goss:
But for them, it was finally hearing the perception that it wasn't coming across angry, it was coming across bullying or whatever that was, it unlocked-
Andy Roark:
Sure.
Stephanie Goss:
… that emotionally for them on a way that allowed them to grow with it. So I think that's a really important distinction. Sometimes it is also about their own actions and what they're doing, but sometimes it's just about the perception that other people on the team are having and the impact that has.
Andy Roark:
I would say, it's always about the impact they're having on the other people. Unless, okay, now let's get into the nuance of getting angry a bit, because this is important and it's not black and white, no one ever gets upset, no one ever gets angry, and I think that's really important. We are all human beings-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… we're not the Buddha.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And I have a 100% worked with people who will come and give me horrible news, and then be upset that I am angry about the news that I received. You know what I mean? I mean, it would be something awful. Like, I don't know, like, “Your patient just died.” And I'll be like, “What?” And they're like, “Why are you so upset? Don't be upset.” And I'm like, “Of course I'm upset. Not at you.” To some degree, I use that as an awkward example of, we're human beings dealing-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… with emotional things. There is some amount of giving people the grace to react to this situation and the news. We're not robots. And your boss is not the Buddha. And I think seeing them as a real person, just like you, I do think that there's some point to that.
Andy Roark:
I also would go along with the idea that communication happens at the ear, not at the mouth. And that's also why anger is so interesting to me, it's because we all perceive anger very differently.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And it can be very different among families. It's very different among cultures. I grew up in a family where people did not raise their voices to each other, very often. It almost never happened.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And I know other people who come from loving families that scream at each other-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… all the time.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And I remember being a young person, I remember being an adult, and I've gone to people's houses and they're yelling at each other.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And I'm like, “I feel so awkward. I shouldn't be here. This is…” And then they're like, “And we're ready for dinner. Let's everybody sit down.” And we're like, “Okay.” And then it's like, it never happened. And I'm like, “Do you understand the fallout of that yelling exchange at my house?” That would be-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… a big deal. And they're like, “Nope, that's just appetizers.”
Stephanie Goss:
Welcome to holidays at my in-laws.
Andy Roark:
And, again, at casa Goss.
Stephanie Goss:
It's true. It's totally true though. It's a big difference within families. And it is jarring when you are used to or have grown up in a situation or culture that is vastly different than the one that's being presented. And I think the same kind of thing applies here, because I have worked with people who grew up, so to speak, in clinic environments that you would look at and say, “This is the quiet family.” And then you go to the family's house where they communicate by shouting at one another, that is a very jarring experience.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I think that that applies very truly here that people can, not only on a personal level, have grown up in different ways and experience different things throughout their life, but also from a work perspective.
Andy Roark:
Sure.
Stephanie Goss:
There is culture in our practices and people are impacted by that and their reactions and the way that they respond often are conditioned and influenced by that.
Andy Roark:
Well, I mean, the other part of this that feeds into it too, one is how people respond by getting angry or yelling or whatever, the other part is, how they give feedback-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… which is another part of this equation.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
My wife's extended family, a big piece of that extended family is from Nicaragua. And they are, shall we say, direct with each other. They a 100%b would just say how they're feeling about what you just said, right to your face, in very clear language. You know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Uh-huh.
Andy Roark:
And it's kind of, you think of, I don't know, conversations on, I don't know, like Pawn Stars or Jersey Shore, where people are, they love each other, they are right up in each other's face. That's how they communicate. And I'm just like, “Oh, boy, if someone gave me feedback that direct, I would have to process that.” And they're like, “Nope. I said you were lazy, and I meant that you were lazy.” And I'm like, “Wow, you guys just went at each other.” And they're like, “Nope, we're just communicating how we feel.”
Andy Roark:
And, again, I say all this and we're laughing, the point is that is a 100% fine, as long as everybody's on board, and we all know what the ground rules are, and we're all comfortable communicating that way. That's why it works in families. Families can all yell at each other as long as they're all comfortable giving and receiving yelling. And a lot of people are. And so I'm not judging. It's just, for me, I go, “Holy crap.” I can see people saying, “Wow, that guy was yelling and that's really bad.” And he's going, “That's just, I was just communicating.”
Andy Roark:
And I also see other people saying, “Why does this person get so upset when I give them feedback?” And I'm like, “Oh, buddy, the feedback you are giving is extremely direct. And maybe not gracefully given.” And they go, “Well, that's how I give feedback in my family,” or, where I came from before.” And so all of that, I just introduced, to intentionally muddy the waters a little bit around this person responds in an emotional way. I go, this is not as cut and dry as people like to think it is. And I think that's good because it's much easier to coach people when you are in a little bit of murky water. When it's not, “Hey, you are clearly the bad guy who needs to change.”
Andy Roark:
It's much easier to say, “Hey, look, everyone is different in how they give and receive feedback. Everyone is different in their comfort with emotion and showing emotion. If you're not bad, you're not wrong even, you are being perceived this way. And there are other people who will perceive you this way as you go on in your career. And while you're not wrong, you are less effective than you should be or could be. And there are some changes you can make to make yourself much more effective.” And I just think that's so much easier to think and to say than to try to say, “You are a bully and people are complaining.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think the other thing, I like that we're talking about the murky waters, because I think it is important to be able to see some perspective from both sides here. Because like you said, it's not cut and dry that we're talking about someone who is a horribly toxic person, and their behaviors are like, “This is flaming and it just needs to go.” We've had some episodes where we said, “This is our answer, because it's clear cut.”
Stephanie Goss:
I don't think that this is the case. The one thing I will say that, for me, brings things into focus and gives me a good direction to head in is that our writer said a lot of the communication here that is problematic is happening over email. And so I think it crystallizes it for me because email lacks the ability to read tone and emotion, the way that you can, when you're in a room with someone and you're looking at their face and you're hearing the tone of their voice, and you're seeing their body language.
Stephanie Goss:
We were talking about communicating in families and that kind of environment. And I am a big advocate that there should be professional bars set in our workplace. And I'm not a fan of the idea that let's just have one big happy family at work, because I haven't seen that work out too well, too often. And so, for me, that's something that I struggle with. And the area where I feel like it allows us to have some focus here is that we're specifically talking about most frequently the context of email. And so that is something that makes it actionable for us, because it's not like they're all sitting in the same room. And so it makes the ability to coach and make it actionable a little bit easier, I feel like.
Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree. And the last part of me for head space is if you are someone who deals with this person and you have to deal with these blowups, you're dealing with this. I think you need to get a head space for that. And the head space for me is personal boundaries are important to me. And dignity is important to me. And self-respect are important to me. Which means I am not going to have you trample on my dignity-
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
… and I am not going to abandon my self-respect and let you yell at me. I'm just, I'm not going to do that. And I would encourage people to decide what are you willing to tolerate? And what are you not willing to tolerate? And this is beyond your practice protocols. It's the ability and the willingness to say, “Excuse me, I don't appreciate you speaking to me like that.” And people say, “Oh, my God, you say that.” And I do. And the reason I would say that is because you have a choice to make, when you deal with someone who reacts this way, do you want to have awkwardness as you deal with this person getting angry? Or do you want to have resentment, because you didn't deal with this person getting angry? And now they have continued to act this way and you don't know when it's going to happen again.
Andy Roark:
And this doesn't have to be a first time it happens, I'm ready for it. But if this is a thing that happens, at some point, you have to ask yourself, “Am I willing to be spoken to like this?” And if the answer is, no, that doesn't mean I'm going to get mad. It doesn't mean I'm going to yell back. I'm not, but I am going to tell you, “Listen, I do not appreciate being spoken to like that.” And it may not be at the time this person is reacting emotionally.
Andy Roark:
I may come back and say, “Hey, can we talk about yesterday afternoon? When you did this, it was not acceptable. And it ruined my day. And I went home and talked to my spouse about it, because that's how much it bothered me. And I want you to know that's the effect it had on me. And I'm not willing to have those conversations or be treated like that again. And I'll go get another job.” Seriously, and I do believe in that. There's plenty of vet jobs out there, and I'm not going to be yelled at. And it's funny, you can back people down real fast if you just tell them that.
Andy Roark:
And again, I'm not trying to be callous. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm being honest about what I need to be in this relationship. And I go back again and again, to what we always say is that, “Guys, your job is a relationship, and you should treat it like a relationship. And I'm not going to be in a relationship with people who yell at me.” And I would say that to people I call my friends. I would say that to my family members. Like, “Hey, I'm not going to call you if you're going to yell at me and berate me. I'm not putting myself in that position, and you need to know that.” And that's why I go back to personal boundaries, to dignity and self-respect, is go, “I'm not willing to tolerate this.” And I will tell you that. And you can do with that information, what you will. I'm not kidding.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, should we take a break here and then jump into, how do we take this head space and try and address some of what is happening?
Andy Roark:
Yeah. I think that there's a lot of stuff that we can do. I think this is usually I can get pretty good outcomes on these conversations. So yeah. Let's take a break and then we'll get into it.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss, you got a second to talk about GuardianVets.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, what do you want to talk about?
Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed, because the phones never stop ringing.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And I'm sure you hear from these people as well. Our caseload is blowing up and the doctors are busy and the phones just don't stop.
Stephanie Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.
Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip the switch and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk, and they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments and give them support. And it really is a godsend.
Stephanie Goss:
Pre-pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after hours call help. But at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that they are offering help during the daytime as well. Which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices, because everybody is shorthanded, everybody is drowning in phone calls. And so we talk about it, we've talked about GuardianVets, a lot on the podcast. And every time we do, we always get somebody who says, “What is that?”
Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use some help on the phones or up at the front desk, check them out. It's guardianvets.com, and if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So check it out, guardianvets.com.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody, it's Stephanie. And I want to jump in here for just one quick second and make sure that you know about a workshop that's coming up from the Uncharted community that you are not going to want to miss. Now you might not be the person who's in charge of marketing for your practice, if not write this down and pass it along, because we are being joined by none other than the Bill Schroeder from InTouch Practice Communications. Bill is amazing. He is a wonderful. He is funny. He is kind and down to earth, and he loves nothing more than working with veterinary practices and cheering them on about digital marketing.
Stephanie Goss:
And Bill is joining us on Wednesday, June 8th, from 7:00 to 9:00 PM Eastern, which is 4:00 to 6:00 PM Pacific. And he is talking about creating content that clients crave. He is going to teach us how to explore contents that are the most valuable and that have a huge impact. And talk about proven methods for great content development.
Stephanie Goss:
Bill did this workshop for us live in person previously, and I said, “Hey, Bill, I would love for you to bring this to the Uncharted community, but also to veterinary medicine and beyond.” And he is doing just that on Wednesday, June 8th. If you would like to find out about this and all of the upcoming events from Uncharted, head on over to the website at unchartedvet.com/events. And you'll be able to find all of the things that are coming that you are not going to want to miss. Now back to the podcast.
Andy Roark:
All right. You ready to unpack this a little bit?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, let's do it.
Andy Roark:
All right, cool. Let's jump into specifics here. So specifics, as we have this conversation, number one, lower the stakes. It goes back to what we were talking about before. I don't want this person necessarily to feel judged, any more than I have to. I want to make this not a big deal. When people have a personal flaw, like a personality trait that's causing problems, it is easy for them to feel like you are attacking their identity and who they are. And that can stimulate strong emotions, feelings of shame, things like that. None of those things help me change this person's behavior.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
And that is why I'm going to go ahead and try to lean into what we talked about before of, “Hey, communication happens at the ear, not at the mouth. And you are being perceived in this way, or you are having these negative effects on people when they are seeing this emotional response, or hear this specific language,” to try to lower the stakes.
Andy Roark:
Number two, and you heard me just kind of stumble on it. You can't say, “You're being a hothead. You're getting angry.” Because people will say, “No, I'm not.” You need to speak in specifics. What are you talking about? Are they raising their voice? Are they using foul language? Because that is not acceptable, that's in the employee handbook. And that's not okay. Are they giving feedback that is being taken as, I don't know, mean. Exactly what feedback are we talking about? We got to give them examples. It's not fair to say, “Hey, when you give feedback, people really don't like it.” And they're like, “What do I do? Or what am I doing? And they're, “I don't know. Whatever you're doing, they hate it.” And they're like, “Well, I don't know what to do with that.” So we've got to speak in specifics.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think that goes on both sides. And I want to pull something out from some of what was shared with us. Our medical director said, an example of one of the emails was that they had sent an email to multiple people on the team saying, “Hey, when you guys do this thing,” and told them what the thing is, they told them what their response was. But the way that they phrased their response was, “This feels like a slap in the face to me, and I'm not going to tolerate it moving forward.” That is a really good example of where it's not clear. It's not specific.
Stephanie Goss:
So giving them the example is wonderful, you should tell them exactly what happened. They need context, but telling them that it feels like a slap in the face to you, what does that mean? That's so subjective there, that could be interpreted a million different ways by five different people on your team. And to follow it up with, “I won't tolerate it,” feels, again, very subjective. Because, again, what does that mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Does that mean that you are not going to talk to me anymore? Does that mean that you're going to write me up? Does that mean you're going to report me? What does that actually mean? And so I think on both sides of the equation, everything for me around this has to do with very clear action steps, and giving clear examples and clear responses on both sides or you're not going to get anywhere.
Andy Roark:
I agree. I also go back to our email 101 rule that we talk about quite frequently.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Anything that is going to elicit emotion or that you have a motion tied into-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… that's not an email my friends. That's at least the phone call. And that's just it, it's too easy to misinterpret tone, to read tone in. We have all heard people reading things in the worst possible assumptions being made.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And they're like, “Can you believe he said, ‘That's fine, see you later.' Can you believe he said that?” And you're like, “I don't think he said, ‘That's fine.' I think he said, ‘That's fine.'” And they're like, “Nope, that's not what he said. He said, clearly, ‘That's fine.'”
Stephanie Goss:
It's so funny that you called that out, because that's actually an improv exercise that I learned in school. And I actually love doing that with my team in team meetings. You can 100% take a phrase, couple of sentences at the most, and have five people read it. And tell them, “Read it however you want to read it.” And you will get five different tones, five different inflections, five different emotions played into the exact same wording. And so you want to talk about eye opening for your team, when you're talking about customer service stuff or stuff that's coming in from clients, it's a great example. And it applies here to the team, too, when you're talking about sending emails to each other, particularly. You're spot on, you're going to have different reactions from different people.
Stephanie Goss:
And so it's funny, because you were saying earlier that we don't get taught how to take feedback. And I would say that one of the things that it often is not taught enough either is how to write professional emails. And it's funny, because I actually took a class in business school about business communication, and one whole semester was on email, and it was a short course. But it was weeks of how do you write professional emails? What things go into them? What don't? What kind of grammar? How do we use language appropriately? And that is something that I think that we don't teach enough, just in general, as a life skill. And then when we take people, a lot of times in veterinary medicine, and we promote them because they're good at the job they had, we don't often equip them with the skills that they need to be successful in the job that they have now.
Stephanie Goss:
And this for me is usually an example of one of those things. Because we think it should be common sense for people to know what should go at an email and what should not, but it is not. That is a teachable skill and it is something that we don't often put enough emphasis on. And so I think that part is really important. Teaching our teams, “Okay, these are…” I love how simply you state the rule. Like, if this is something you have emotion for, or you feel like it might elicit an emotional response on the part of the other person, don't put it in email.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. People-
Stephanie Goss:
Simple rule.
Andy Roark:
… overuse email. They do. Emails should be short.
Stephanie Goss:
Or text.
Andy Roark:
They should be… Exactly, or text, especially text. There should not be any emotion in text. It should be a hundred percent straight up wrote information that this is what… What time are we meeting? Thank you.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
What is the phone number?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
I will be there five minutes late. It should be straight up communications like that.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
People way over use email. It should be short information exchanges.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Two things I would say on that. My favorite one, when we talk about tone, my favorite example is this, it's, “I didn't say you made a mistake.” “I didn't say you made a mistake.” “I didn't say you made a mistake.” “I didn't say you made a mistake.” “And I didn't say you made a mistake.” And those are all different.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
And they're a 100% the same phrase, and it is just, where do you put the emphasis on that? And it's a joke, but it's not a joke. And that is why I say, “Anything that has emotion, just text is not the right way to sent it. It's just not.” So there's that.
Andy Roark:
The other thing, as far as your professional email course, I will say this, I have been thinking about this recently. I believe that the most valuable videos on YouTube are the boring videos of things you do all the time, and would never watch a video of. I think the number one how-to YouTube video that anyone should watch is how to use your own cell phone. And people are like, “I'm not watching how to use my iPhone.” I'm like, “I bet the amount of time and quality of your life would go up substantially, if you watched the 25 minute, here's the top 10 tricks you didn't know about your iPhone. I'm confident of that.” In that vein, I think a class on how to write a professional email, everyone goes, “Other people need that, I don't need that.” I'm like, “You should take the freaking class.”
Stephanie Goss:
Everyone needs it.
Andy Roark:
Everyone probably needs it. And it's just one of those things where, yes, you would sit through it, and yes, you would probably pick up two or three little things, but those two or three little things might save your bacon a couple of times throughout the 30 year career of you using email.
Stephanie Goss:
I will tell you, I took that class 20 plus years ago, and I couldn't tell you three quarters of the content, but I will tell you the three things that stuck with me from that class I don't ever do when I'm putting it… Your point is solid. There were three things that stuck out to me, and every time I write an email, I hear the professor's voice in my head, and I'm checking to see, am I doing or not doing those three things? I think it's super, super valid.
Andy Roark:
So, yeah, I agree with that. So get off email, separate the person from the behavior. And I know we've said this a couple of different ways. Let's talk about the behavior-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… not about the person getting angry.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
Maybe they need anger management classes. I don't know and neither do you. They need to not communicate in the way that it's making others believe that they're angry. And if they need to go to anger management to accomplish that, then that's fine. But separate the person from the behavior. And let's talk about the behavior, not about the person as someone who can't control their emotions.
Stephanie Goss:
I agree. And so our medical director asks like, “Okay, I'm not their boss-
Andy Roark:
Nope.
Stephanie Goss:
… so what can I do?” It doesn't matter whether you're someone's boss or not. You're a human being who has to interact with them on a regular basis. And so there's nothing wrong with you speaking directly to them about the impact that it has on you or the impact that it has on you and the rest of the team. And so, for me, I think the action steps start there. And I think the point you just made about separating the person and the behavior is really important.
Stephanie Goss:
And so, for me, it's about assuming good intent and trying to come from a place of good intentions. And I always start with asking for help, because I could probably count on one hand the number of times that I have asked somebody else for help and they have flat out refused. And so, for me, it is, “I need your help.” And then give them a specific, “The other day when you sent the email about,” and tell them exactly specifically, so that they understand the email that you're referencing. “When I read the section on you telling the team when they do this thing, it feels like a slap in the face. My response, my emotional response, or my interpretation of that was X.” And tell them how that made you feel.
Stephanie Goss:
By intentionally using words like, “I responded this way,” or, “I interpreted that to mean,” or, “I thought,” “I felt,” you are taking it onto yourself and there's nothing wrong with how your brain interpreted it. You're not saying they're wrong for doing it that way. It's not about them. It's about the behavior, and how the behavior made you feel or made the team feel. And then say, “That really bothers me, because,” here's why. “It bothers me because I feel like I did something wrong and I thought the conversation that we had as a group went really well. And so that leaves me really confused.” Whatever it is, and then just ask them for help, tell them what you need. “Can you tell me more about what you were thinking when you sent that email? Because, I really want to understand where you were coming from.”
Andy Roark:
I love that. And, also, one of the other things I really loved about that is it shows the differences in you and me, because I love it. I love it, because so a 100% you and I were lockstep through the whole, “Hey, I need some help when you sent that email yesterday, and it said the thing, this is how I interpreted it-
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
… and I've heard that the team interpreted it similarly.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
And then here's where you and I diverge. And I don't think those are right or wrong, I think some of it is who you are as a person.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
And some of it, I would say, is probably who you're talking to. So Stephanie Goss says, “I felt this way,” or, “It made me feel this way,” or, “This is the effect that it had on me.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
And that is good and powerful. I would a 100% step away from you, and my first inclination is to say, “Hey, this is how it made my life harder, which is… And this is what you said, and this is how I took it. And I know it's how the team took it.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
And as a result, I've been dealing with upset technicians all day long, and it's making my life really hard. And I need your help to not put me in a position where I'm dealing with angry, upset people-
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
… for three days, because of an email that I don't think really represents what you were trying to say.” And I'd say that, and again, it's not right or wrong, but Stephanie goes to, “This is how this is how I was affected.” And I go to-
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
… “This is-
Stephanie Goss:
“This is the impact.”
Andy Roark:
Unemotionally, this is the impact that you had on me.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
And again, I'm not saying right or wrong. It's a 100% who you are. I am a very goal-oriented person. Stephanie is a very relationship-oriented person. And so we do it differently, and it's not right or wrong.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, and I think you're spot on. And the other thing that I would say is that the approach that I would take, there are absolutely times where I would take your approach.
Andy Roark:
Sure.
Stephanie Goss:
And for me, it's about how does the other person I'm trying to talk to communicate as well, right? So you are very-
Andy Roark:
Yes.
Stephanie Goss:
… like you said, you're very goal-driven and I am very relationship-driven, and so that is my natural default to think that way. And at the same time, if I am talking to someone who is a no bullshit, keep it short, let's just have the conversation kind of person, I'm probably going to say, “This has been the fallout. This has been the impact that it has had on me or on the team.” And I would probably use that tactic.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I think they both are right. And they both have value. And I think it's really important to figure out for yourself what you need to relay and also where they are at. Because, in order for the conversation to move forward, most successfully, sometimes it's much more important for us to flex into their style or to lean back into our own natural state.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. I couldn't agree more, a 100%. I would absolutely flex over into your relationship style, depending on who we're talking to. If I'm talking to a relationship person, that's where I would lean. Other than, “Hey, I've been inconvenience by this,” I would lean into our relationship.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
I just love that. You said that because I was right with you-
Stephanie Goss:
I love it.
Andy Roark:
… and then you kind of made a move and I'm like, “Ooh, that's not the move I would've made.” And then it just made me think about, oh, that's how Stephanie and I are different.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
But again, it's your go-to default, but I think your point is maximum effectiveness comes from knowing the other person and making the move that connects with that person. So anyway, I'm glad that you did that. I think what I would say, and how I would say it is, “Hey, I need your help with something.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
And then I would just tell them, “This is what's going on. This is what the email was. This is how I interpreted it. And it's how I know a number of members of the staff interpreted it as well.” And this is-
Stephanie Goss:
Sure. Because I-
Andy Roark:
… the impact that's had.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Absolutely, “Because I've been having people come up into my office or come to my desk all day long, because they are feeling very hurt or very angry” or whatever the impact is. That's a very powerful tool.
Andy Roark:
Yep. I agree. And so I really do think that is the conversation to have. This person is not your boss, they're not your boss and you're not their boss-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… which just makes it have a conversation like a friend or a peer. The best thing is for a mentor to say, “Hey, my friend, we need to talk about this.” And frame this in a developmental conversation. And we talk about giving feedback. And if you are their boss, you have a couple different levers to pull. I would still not pull a correctional lever if I didn't have to.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Andy Roark:
I would still lean much more into, “Hey, I like you. I think you're doing a good job. The number one developmental challenge that you are facing right now, to be a more effective leader, is” this perception. “That is the number one thing you need to overcome in the next year. That should be priority one in self-improvement and professional development for you to get where you need to go. Because that is the biggest thing that I think holds you back or could potentially hold you back in the future.” And that is a coaching conversation. “I'm your biggest fan. I want you to succeed. I'm telling you, buddy, this is the thing, you got to fix this. You got to nail this down. And I believe you can, but you have to want to do it. You have to do it.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And I think the important part of the conversation is that it doesn't really matter whether you're their boss or they're your boss-
Andy Roark:
No.
Stephanie Goss:
… or vice versa. Really, for me, anybody on the team should be able to have the kind of conversation that you and I just talked about to say, “Hey, look, I need your help, because this is what happened. And this is how it impacted me,” or, “this is how it made me feel.” The other members of the team should be able to have that conversation directly with that person. And so for our medical director, I know them and I know that they not only talked to this person directly, but I'm sure that they also coached other members of the team to try and get them to have the conversations directly, because that kind of communication is important to them.
Stephanie Goss:
And at the same time, I think it doesn't matter whether you are their direct boss or not, if you are taking it to the person who can do something about it. So if I am taking it to the manager and saying, “Hey, this is what happened. I need you to work with me here, because this was the impact or this is how it made me feel or the team feel,” or whatever. And you've had that conversation, especially if you've had that conversation repeatedly, which our medical director friend has, then it is not wrong to then manage up, and ask for help with this situation, because you have tried to fix it yourself.
Stephanie Goss:
And so if you have tried repeatedly and you can clearly define the steps that you have taken for someone else, it is not wrong to go to your boss or their boss and say, “Hey, here's the situation. Here's what I've done to try and fix this. I am at a point where I feel like I need some help, because I'm not getting any traction. And I really want to resolve this situation. Can you help me figure out what comes next?”
Stephanie Goss:
You're not asking them to solve it for you. You're not asking for them to take the problem on. Now, they may look at it and say, “This is not your problem. This is my problem. I will have the conversation,” but you were asking them for help, and managing up in that way, again, is a skill that we don't teach and we don't learn. And it is often looked at as, “Well, you're just telling on them.” And that's not what you're doing.
Stephanie Goss:
But there is absolutely an expectation, for me, at that level of professionalism. And if I have had a conversation repeatedly, and I have asked for changes in the behavior from a person that I have a relationship with, and I am supposed to be in a working partnership with, as a medical director and as practice manager, if I have set my expectations, if I have been clear about my boundaries, if I have had those conversations and asked for their help, and the behavior is still not changing, your next step should be to ask for someone else's help.
Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree. And the comeback to, “You should say it to my face,” is, “I did say it to your face-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… three times. And then yesterday you did this thing, and the behavior doesn't seem to be changing or this-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… continues to be a problem.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
That's it.” But, no, I completely agree with you. I think it's really good. The last little caveat I'll put it in, which should have gone at the very beginning, but I just kind of thought in my mind, I'm like, we didn't say this clearly. But I feel like we probably should is, don't get mad yourself. Confronting the hotheaded person-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… when you are triggered-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… is probably, it's like, “Hey, I'm going to put this fire out with a powder keg I happen to have laying nearby.” Yeah, that's not good. “I'm going to douse this fire with some gasoline, that'll settle it down.” Nope. Make sure that you are not angry when you talk to the person. Which means going to them and saying, “Hey, I need your help. Yesterday, when you sent this email, I was really affected. And I'm not affected now, but, boy, I took-
Stephanie Goss:
Because I'm-
Andy Roark:
… that in a negative way-
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Andy Roark:
… yesterday.” And that just makes this conversation a lot easier as opposed to, “How dare you, sir. How dare you send me an email like this,” and you slap them with your latex glove and demand satisfaction with a catheter dual. No, it's not… Boy, [inaudible 00:53:43]… You okay, Steph?
Stephanie Goss:
That's the end of this episode.
Andy Roark:
That's the end of the show. That's it, we're done. I got nothing else. All right, guys, have a wonderful week everybody.
Stephanie Goss:
Have a fantastic week.
Andy Roark:
Don't get angry and send emails to anybody. That's your homework, until next one.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it. Have a great week, everybody. Take care.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag. Or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
