Exactly How Do I Talk to a Negative Staff Member?

This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…

Are you a leader in your practice whose palms sweat and you might completely forget how to say what you need to say when confronting a negative staff member? Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are tackling another letter from the mailbag this week. A long-time podcast listener wrote in and asked Andy and Stephanie to do some actual role play on how to address a team member who is (and I do quote) “the most pessimistic person on the planet!” Our listener is a manager in a corporate practice who has a negative staff member and they just don’t know WHAT to say or HOW to say it. They are reaching out for help to navigate some crucial conversations because this behavior is just not acceptable. This is a fun one, let’s get into this…

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Episode Transcript

This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.

Stephanie Goss:
Hey there everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of The Uncharted podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are tackling a letter from the mail bag. This one comes to us from a fellow manager and longtime podcast listener. And they wrote in and said they are struggling with exactly how do I talk to a negative team member? They have to have a difficult conversation and were wondering if Andy I could do some role play around what a difficult conversation with a team member who is always so, so, so negative could look like. And this person happens to have an answer for everything. And this manager said, “That is part of my stumbling block. This person makes everything a big deal. They can't seem to get out of their own way. And I would love to hear how it actually should be handled. Because sometimes I find myself so sure that I understand the principles that you guys are talking about on the podcast. But then in the moment, I get stuck and worry that I'm screwing it up.” So I thought this was a great challenge. And I'm excited about this episode. Let's get into it. Shall we?

Meg:
And now, The Uncharted podcast.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark. And Stephanie say it like it is Goss.

Stephanie Goss:
How's it going, Andy?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, it's good. We are just a week away from, as we're recording this from, the April Uncharted conference. It will be over by the time this comes out. But boy, excitement is high here. I have an extern from the University of Illinois College of Vet Medicine Jason Szumski is here with me. He's living in the basement of my house, which is a heck of experience for him.

Stephanie Goss:
Did Jason bring his Energizer bunny batteries? Because keeping up with you is hard.

Dr. Andy Roark:
He did. I'm actually super impressed. I have not had an extra in a long time just because excuses, and time, and energy.

Stephanie Goss:
And a global pandemic.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And a global pandemic. I thank you for that. That was a big part of it as well. Man. Boy he's busting his hump though. I got to tell you. I got to tell you.

Stephanie Goss:
I'm excited. Our Uncharted team and our community adore Jason. He's great. He's been a student volunteer for us for virtual conferences over the past couple years. And it's going to be so fun to have him in person. I can't wait to see him and everybody else. The excitement level is getting sky high for everybody. As you can imagine, we haven't seen each other in three years at this point, and we are so excited to be able to see each other. And there's a frantic, frenetic, exciting energy happening in the community. And can't wait to see everybody. It's going to be so much fun.

Dr. Andy Roark:
He's going to get mobbed. He's a fourth year vet student who hasn't signed a contract with anyone yet. It's going to be like torn clothes.

Stephanie Goss:
It's open season.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Oh boy.

Stephanie Goss:
It's a good thing this episode comes out afterwards and they don't already know that because once the attendees hear that, it's going to be open season on Jason Szumski.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Lot of head slapping, like, “That guy didn't have a job? Oh my gosh.” Oh yeah. All right. I mentioned this episode a couple weeks ago when we were talking about good stuff coming in the mail bag. And this was one of the ones I had seen. And I was like, “Man, this is a good episode. I'm excited to talk about this.”

Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Me too. This is a fun one. We got something through the mail bag, through a call from a colleague that you and I have worked with before. And they were just like, “Hey, I have been listening to some podcast episodes, and I've gotten some really good ideas for high level how to address some of the concern that I have. But I would really love for you guys to do some actual role playing and discussing exactly how you would have some conversations like this.” Because this letter came to us from a manager who is struggling because they have a team member who is super negative. Feels like they are always negative about things. And there's always an answer for everything. They're the kind of person who makes everything it seems like dramatic, and argumentative, and has an answer. And really just kind of in the words of this manager, can't seem to get out of their own way.

Stephanie Goss:
So it's funny because when I got this message in the mail bag, I emailed this person back and said, “Hey, give me some examples. Tell me what this looks like, because it could look a million different ways. And I want to make sure that we have a good understanding.” And they came back in and gave us some really good examples, because they said, “I listened to some episodes. And I felt like I understood the principles, but I wasn't sure how to actually do it. And I feel like in the moment, I always screw it up. I would just love to know how to say what I'm supposed to say.”

Stephanie Goss:
And it's funny because you and I both get asked that a lot. I think when people talk to us individually is like okay, I get that idea behind it, but how do I actually do that? And I think that's one of the challenges I know I had a lot managing. You would go to a conference or you would hear somebody speak and they would give you the high level overview, which was fantastic. Because you wrap your brain around it. And you're like, “Yes, I understand the direction I need to go in.” But actually, what does the roadmap look like? How do I get from point A to point B?

Stephanie Goss:
So yeah, so this one, we got some really good examples. One of them was they had some changes happen. They became a corporate practice, and everybody in the team was understandably concerned about what the changes would look like. And some of the things that started changing were for this manager, that they were looking in a more formal way at budgeting, and staff hours, and how to use everybody's time. And they were talking as a team about the changes. And this person in a team meeting made some comments like, “Does corporate not care that we need to pay our bills? They're trying to screw us by shortening our hours.” Then this manager was like, “I tried to talk about that. The volume of work we have.” The clients coming in the door, that dictates our hours. Not a corporate office that's saying, “These are the hours you have.” We're trying to actively look at what is coming in the door and use our time, our resource of staff smartly. And the comeback basically was, “I just take corporate practice. All they want is money.” So I was like that's a really good example of not only is this person giving negative responses, but they're doing it in a public way.

Stephanie Goss:
So I think you and I have some thoughts about the list of examples. And we'll use some of the other examples that were shared when we start talking through this. But let's start where we always do from a head space perspective and talk about when we have somebody on the team who's just really negative and who is this kind of person that always seems to have a comment, can't keep their thoughts to themselves. Always seems to share. And often from the example sounds like, does this in a very public way. How do we deal with that person?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. There's good head space here. Let's always just real quick lay this down to start off with is you got to get safe for the conversation. So don't talk to this person if you're triggered. Safe is can you sit next to this person? Can you smile at them? Are you assuming good intent? Meaning are you assuming this person is trying their best and they're not trying to undermine the practice intentionally? Do they really think that they are the voice of the other coworkers and that they're looking out for the other people? That's a way to assume good intent. They're doing it badly. But maybe that they're trying to do.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Has this person been set up to fail? Have they not been communicated with? Do they not know things that they need to know because they haven't been told or there are nuances that haven't been shared? That's F. And then E is the end result, is what do you want? What do you want the outcome to be? So part of it is get safe.

Dr. Andy Roark:
In these situations when someone is behaving this way and being combative, yes, we need to get safe. Another piece of that, this variation is the best way to deal with a combative person is you have to care, but not that much. You have to care, but not that much. Which means when you're dealing with a combative person, someone who's negative, and they're going to turn this into a thing. If you care a lot, then they're going to bait you into an argument or they're going to make you really mad, and that's going to make you less effective. So you need to be a bit more emotionally detached than you would otherwise be to compensate for the over emotional attachment the other person has, in my opinion.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm not saying I don't care. I do care. But I have this conversation, I am going to have a little bit of detachment just because I know everything is going to turn into the worst possible explanation of other people's behaviors. And I know that this person is not going to give me any grace, and I'm just prepared for it. And maybe I'll be wrong and I hope I'll be wrong. But if I just go ahead and plan for that and go, “You know what, they're going to react emotionally. I'm not going to take the bait. I'm not going to rise to it. I'm going to talk to the person about what we need to talk about and go on.” That helps me get in a very calm head space where I can work with this person and not be on pins and needles, and not lose sleep because I have to just detach and say at some point, it's going to be what it's going to be. And I just need to be okay with that.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's super smart. I think the other thing for me is I as a manager, that advice I would give to myself is put on the hat that you wear if this person was a client. So I think through what are the things that I do?

Stephanie Goss:
Because there are people in the world who really always look on the negative side of things. There just are. Just like there are people who always look on the positive, always bright side, always happy. There are also people who live in the negative. They just love that head space. So for me, I am not that kind of person. And I really struggle when dealing with those people. So what I had little mental checklists that I always run through in my head when I knew that I was going to have to talk to, there was a couple of them who we had as clients, who never did anything to warrant firing, but just were generally negative people. And there was always something, some complaint, something to be worked up about.

Stephanie Goss:
So smile. Taking a second to take a deep breath and smile before I respond to this person. And put myself at mental checklist of how do I smile at them? How do I kill them with kindness? How do I have empathy without caring too much? Like you were saying, how do I care about them? I care about them. They're a member of my team. I care about them as person, but this is not about me. They just are a negative person. Or they're choosing to act negatively. That's not on me. I don't have to own that and let them rent that space in my head.

Stephanie Goss:
So for me, it's a lot about thinking about okay, I'm not going to take this personally. I'm going to put on a smile and I'm going to say, “How can I help you?” Because that is really easy to take someone who looks at things negatively, it's really easy to take that personally. Those clients used to get under my skin because I knew that they were going to have something to complain about. And I would find myself at the end of the conversation feeling really, really worked up. But when I would take a step back and think about it, the reason I was worked up is because I was taking it personally. I was letting it get to me because I was looking at it as a failure on my part. So part of it for me is how do I just put a smile on my face?

Stephanie Goss:
And ask them a how I can help, you know? And if I approach it from the perspective of I'm not taking this personally. I'm caring a little less, as you said. It made it easier to interact with someone who had that kind of negative outlook on life.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I completely agree. Jamie Holmes has the saying that I use all the time, and I use with my kids. And I think it's been really helpful in talking to my kids a number of times in their life. And it's hurt people hurt people. And a lot of times when we have people who are really mad or really combative, they're responding because they've been burned in the past or because they're afraid, or because they're angry or they're hurt. And probably again, doesn't have anything to do with you, but hurt people hurt people. I see clients losing their mind. And yes, as a doctor, it makes me mad. I don't like people to yell at me, and I don't like them to yell at my staff. I think it helps me to look at that person and recognize that's a hurt person. That's a person who is afraid, or that is a person who is carrying a lot, or that person is really struggling. And they're lashing out because they hurt. And yeah, I've found that to be helpful again in my life. And I find it helpful in these situations.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Before we talk about how to have the conversation, let's talk about what conversation we should have. And that color as what I said a little bit about being a little bit detached. So as I said that, I said I haven't really shown my cards here yet. So that might sound a little bit strange or different from my usual advice of compassion first.

Dr. Andy Roark:
There's three highs of conversations that are like this. That looks similar, but to me are very different. And it really depends on what you're into. So as you said, there are people who have a negative worldview. They are loss-averse people.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So there's two kinds of people, right? There's people who look at opportunities and they say, “What's in this for me? What is the value? What is good?” And there's other type of people who look at it and go, “How am I going to get screwed? What is bad? What am I going to lose?” And that's just the innate wiring that people have is what is the cost versus what is the benefit? And we look at different ways. So a lot of times we look at people who are negative people, that's just their worldview. That's their mindset is they look and their first thought is, “How is this going to go badly for me?”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And again, it's not good or bad. It can be frustrating when you are the idea person, and your job is to get this on board, and their knee jerk reaction is going to be negative. But that's a lot of people. My wife would say that a bit about me, and I've just always been very open. And I would say, “Hey, just know when you pitch an idea to me, my first reaction will probably be negative because I will immediately go, ‘What's wrong with this idea?'” And I don't know why that's my first thought. But 100%. It's just before I can get excited about something, I have to run the caution list of how does this blow up in our face? Even if I see how it can blow up in our face, after I have ascertained that, I can then go ahead and circle back around and be like, “Okay, now I understand the risk. Let's talk about the benefits.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
But it can be really frustrating when you're bringing the idea. I sing the praises to these people a lot too, as someone who often sees what can be bad. Those people can be really useful. And those are people who spot problems. And if you talk to them in the right way and engage them, they can really help you to figure out what's good. Go to one of those people and say, “Hey, what do you think the main client complaints about our practice would be?” And they'll tell you exactly what the clients are of, “They complain about this and they would hate this, and they would not like that.” And then you say, “What do you think we could do about those things?” And they might very well give you some good answers, because they understand the problem. So those people, that's just one example, but they can be really valuable. So that's the person who's, that world view is just them. That's it, right?

Dr. Andy Roark:
The second type of conversation is with someone who's struggling. There are people who are overwhelmed, or they are afraid, or they have other things going on in their life. And they are reacting negatively because of their anxiety, because of their stress, because of their overwhelm, because they don't have the emotional support that they need. And those are struggling people. And often, what happens when you see these people is they will have a negative response or a competitive response to a particular scenario or topic. Or they will behave in a way that's out of character. Meaning I did not see that coming from him. I did not anticipate that reaction. That that may be a struggling person.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And the last is the undermining person or the toxic person. And this person has a pattern of negativity, but it's not just that their responses are negative. it's that their responses are negative and trickle out to other members of the team. They're not saying, “I don't like this idea.” They are saying in front of the rest of the team, “This is garbage,” and it shows that they don't care about us. That is a whole different ball of wax than, “I don't want to do texting in our practice. I don't want to do this new practice management system.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
This is something different, and it is not acceptable. Right? Yeah, it's not acceptable when people start undermining where the practice is trying to go. that that can't happen. And that is the definition of toxicity, right? That leaching out of negativity into the surrounding culture. Like yeah. That's toxic. That's a toxic waste leak.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And it's funny because when I was reading through the responses that this manager sent back to us with examples and stuff like that, they summed up that section by saying, “These are just a few examples of what has become everyday toxicity.” And it was funny because I read through it and my first thought when I was outlining this and the episode and what we're going to talk about, I thought why are we even having this conversation? You have just documented a whole list for me of things that are unacceptable, truly toxic behaviors. And this is a person who before we talk about how do we talk to them, my question is should we even be talking to them? Because my answer was this is a really clear example to me of someone who needs to be let go to find opportunity elsewhere that's going to be a better fit for them, because they're clearly not a good fit for you or your team.

Dr. Andy Roark:
It was like, “What do you say to this person?” It was like the line that I heard once was, “I don't know how we'd get along without you, but tomorrow we're going to find out.” What are you saying? That's one option.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes. So that is for me, it is okay, we are going to talk about how do we have some of these conversations, because I think that makes a really good episode. And at the same time, I think where this conversation, if anybody is listening to this, and I know that this is going to be one of those episodes where people are listening, going, “Feel like they could be talking about my practice.” We've all been there. We've all worked with someone like this. I worked with the someone like this as a coworker. I have worked with people like this as a manager. And the real question I will tell you is if you're looking at the examples, if you've challenged yourself to really write down some concrete examples of this person's behavior or things that are happening. And as you said Andy, it's the kind of things that are happening consistently. They're happening in front of the whole team. The behavior and the negativity is leeching out to the rest of the team.

Stephanie Goss:
If you write those things down and you step back and look at it, and that's what you're seeing, for me the question is okay, you've moved well beyond what do I say? What do I say and how do I say it? And really the question you should be asking yourself, is should I even be having this conversation? Or is it time to look at it and say, the question is actually how do we part ways? Not how do I have this conversation?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, totally. And so the two things I would put down real quick, because I don't want people to think we're jumping to conclusions. Like I said, there's a laundry list of examples here of one person publicly pushing back and saying things repeatedly like, “I hate corporate. I hate this company.” And that's not okay. It's not okay to say it. It affects everyone else.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So two things I put down. Number one is toxic people generally don't get rehabilitated. Once someone becomes a toxic person that is having daily negativity, the research is pretty strong and supported. You are not coaching that person back. Once you get to that level, they are too far gone. People don't tend to be toxic when they arrive in a place. They become toxic overtime.

Dr. Andy Roark:
In this case, it sounds like there was an ownership change and there were significant changes. And this person may have gone this direction very fast. Because of the significant management change. But the ultimate outcome may very well be the same. And I'm not going to write this person off immediately. But I am going to the process of moving this person out. Giving them plenty of time to get on board or giving them opportunities to get on board, but they have to want it. And if you have a toxic person that does not want to not be toxic, they're not going to change their behavior. They're just not. And you are not going to be able to manage a toxic person. I see people all the time who are like, “Can I hide them somewhere?” Maybe if they worked in the back. And I'm like, “Nope. Nope. Nope.”

Stephanie Goss:
Oh my gosh.

Dr. Andy Roark:
They need to go. So the first part is toxic people don't tend to get rehabilitated. They generally need to be liberated. And the other thing is, we've talked about it a lot before. One of the things that helps me is management is all about picking your poison. So you have two nasty drinks in front of you. You can have the nasty drink of continuing to engage with this person every day, and try to lead a team with this person leaching their toxicity, and undermining what you're doing, and accusing you of having the worst motives you could possibly have again, and again, and again. Or you could go through the firing process. I know which one I'm going to drink. But you get to choose. Pick your poison.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that that's a good call. So I think part of that for me is you have to have some structure in your practice to figure out whether someone is toxic or not, and also to look at their, this falls into their fit level with the team. Right? So when we talk about assessing employees, we're assessing them based on their skills. And this is where a lot of times, people struggle. I have seen a lot of myself included, and my friends, and peers struggle with doctors or technicians where they have really high skills. They are really capable of their jobs. No matter role in the position, CSR, doctor, technician. They have a skillset that makes them excellent at their job from that perspective. And the other half is the fit, right? The soft skills. The can they talk to people, can they get along with the team? Are they supportive? Are they positive? Do they jump in? Do they involve themselves group projects? All of those kind of things. And this is where people struggle because they look at them as two independent silos.

Stephanie Goss:
And there are so many people that choose the poison of, “Well, I have somebody who is really high skill. So I'm just going to ignore the fact that they're not a fit. And I'm going to choose that poison of having that person there and having that daily interaction that is just negative for the rest of the team as a whole.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, the vast majority of toxic people I see in practices are high skill. The reason is because no one would ever put up with them if they weren't technically good at their job. If you're like this person is horrible to be around. And I'm like, “Are they good at their a job?” And they're like, “Nope, they're awful.” That's a no brainer. You go nope. There are [inaudible 00:25:52]. Now I do see those. I agree.

Stephanie Goss:
I was going to say we have a lot of conflict adverse people in veterinary medicine. So there are lots of people in practices that are neither high skill or high fit. Because we don't want to deal with conflict and we don't want to say I've created an opportunity for you to be happy somewhere else, you know?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes. Yeah. I do agree with that. I do agree with that. So that's where, look at the big lessons that I learned. One of my mentors told me … I remember he had bought a practice and he was a partner in the practice. And I was working with him at the time. And he is gone to this practice. And he was talking to this brand new staff that had just come into their ownership and everything. And basically what he said to the group, and he said in a very nice way, but basically what he said was, “Hey, you guys are doing a great job. We're going to be making some changes. We're really going to the next level. And we want you guys to be a part of that. We would love for you to be here and be a part of what we're doing. And if you don't want to be here and be a part of what we are doing, that's totally fine. We will write you letters of recommendation. We will help find you other positions and other places. And there's no hard feeling, and the door will be open if you want to come back. What you can't do is stay here and fight against or work against the changes that we're going to make and where we're going.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And to me, that's what this reeks of is to say to the person, “Hey, I want you to be here and be happy. And you are welcome to be here and be on board with what we're doing and be happy, or you're welcome to leave. And I will support you.” And anyone who asks, I'll say, “Hey, we went to a corporate ownership structure. It was not for her. And she decided that she wanted to leave. And that's what it was, and she was great. I'm happy to support you there. But what you cannot do is stay here and be miserable, and undermine what we're doing.” So those are sort of the conversations that we have with that person.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And before we start to talk in more broad terms about having harder conversations, the conversation I would have with this person is basically I would try to come from a place of compassion and say something along the lines of, “Hey listen, you seem wildly unhappy here.” And then I would recap. “Just in the last three days, we talked about these three or four different things. And I'm worried about you. And I don't like how unhappy you are here. And you're clearly pushing back against where things are going. It's not good for you. It's not good for the team as far as moving forward and getting on board.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And then I would go into my, “I want you to be here and be happy. But look, if this is making you miserable, you are important and you are valuable. And you should do what's right for you. And I think that's probably leaving and finding something else where you're going to be happy because you clearly are very unhappy here.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And that's the opening conversation for me is what do you think about this? Am I wrong? Am I misreading this? And if they come back and go, “No, I'm actually really happy here.” Then I'll say, “Well look, we need to talk about some changes so that you can continue to be here, because this is getting really bad.” And you hear that I did not say, “You're getting really bad, or even that you are unreasonable. I'm saying you are wildly unhappy, and it shows. It's not going to be able to continue on this way. So I want what's best for you. It sounds like that might be for you to find another place to work where you're going to be happy. And I don't say that because I don't want you here because I do. But man, I'm worried about you.”

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I love that. I love when you say, “You can stay and be a part of what we are doing here. Or you can leave. But what can't happen is you can't stay and you can't choose to fight against what we're doing.” What I love about that example you gave Andy is that it puts it in the future. And it takes the personal attack feelings completely out of it. They could still choose to take it personally. But the way that you're framing it is not personal at all. Because they haven't done anything wrong. You are setting the tone for the future and saying, “Hey, we're starting a fresh chapter. We are going to be making some changes. These are things that we are going to do in the future. We would like you to get on board.” And they are then actively making a choice from that point forward. It's not punitive. You're not looking back at the past. You're not talking about things that have happened in the past. You're talking about future behaviors.

Stephanie Goss:
So when they make their choice, are they going to stay, get on board? Are they going to choose to leave? If they choose to stay, then the conversation becomes, “Okay, you chose to stay here and be a part of the team. And today this happened,” right? Then it becomes future facing. So I love how you frame it because it takes that personal attack. It takes them from interpreting it in a personal way and going on the attack mode, because that's really hard to hear. Because when somebody tells you, “Hey, in the last three days, you've done these things,” right? That immediately is going to put someone on the defensive. And it is important. And we're going to talk through that. And that is giving concrete examples and showing with your words the behaviors is really important.

Stephanie Goss:
It's really hard for us as human beings to separate out ourselves from the behaviors. Right? And those are two separate things. So what's really important from an HR perspective is that we're keeping this in the behaviors category. We're not talking about her as a negative person. And that's where we struggle because for so many of us as managers, it's like when you're talking to someone in the moment, it's really easy to let the emotions become the leader in the conversation. And this is very much one of those conversations where you need to stay in the specifics and talk about the things that are being said or done in a specific example format to help move them forward. Because that is actionable. Saying that there's a negative person is not something that you can use as documentation to terminate someone's employment. Right? Or I guess you can, but you shouldn't. Should be more concrete than that.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, weak sauce.

Stephanie Goss:
Anyways, do you want to take a break here before we get into how to say what to say and how to have these conversations?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah. We can take a break here. The last thing I just wanted to say was circling all the way back around the beginning, this is exactly why I said at the beginning, a bit of emotional detachment is good. And why I said there's that extra you got to care, but not that much. It's because it is very hard to let these other things go and just have a future facing conversation. And act like the old stuff is water under the bridge. You know what I mean? That is very hard. The flaming, raging sword of justice calls your name from this person who has undermined what you're working on so hard and is crapping all over the hard work that you're trying to do. That is fully understandable why people want to grab that sword and take heads. It is the wrong move. The best thing is emotional detachment, and be smart, and play it as we kind of laid down. So anyway, yeah. Let's take a break here.

Stephanie Goss:
Okay.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss, you got a second to talk about GuardianVets?

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. What do you want to talk about?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed, because the phones never stop ringing. And I'm sure you hear from people as well. Our caseload is blowing up, and the doctors are busy, and the phones just don't stop.

Stephanie Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually help you on the phones. You can flip a switch, and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk. And they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments, and give them support. And it really is a godsend.

Stephanie Goss:
Pre-pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after hours call help. But at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that are offering help during the daytime as well, which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices, because everybody is shorthanded. Everybody is drowning in phone calls. So we talk about it. We've talked about GuardianVets a lot on the podcast. And every time we do, we always get somebody who says, “What is that?”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use them help on the on the phones or the front desk, check them out. It's guardianvets.com. And if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So check it out. Guardianvets.com.

Stephanie Goss:
Are you a super sad panda because you didn't get to join us in Greenville last week? Or were you with us in Greenville and you miss us already? We miss you guys too. In fact, I would love for all of you to be able to join us at some events that we have coming up, that you are not going to want to miss. Next month in May, we have the first, it is part one of a two part series. You can take them independently. But it is two workshops coming at you from to your friend, Dr. Tracy Sands. Tracy is passionate about amazing teams, building a intentional culture of appreciation. And that is exactly what she is going to talk to us about. She is leading the first workshop May 21st. And it is retain your team, speak the languages of appreciation in your workplace. She's going to talk to us and work with us on how to learn about the languages of appreciation, but also talk about how do they influence our team and clinic cultures. That is happening May 21st at 2:00 PM Eastern. That's 11:00 AM here on the West Coast.

Stephanie Goss:
‘It is $99. You can participate if you are not an Uncharted member. And if you are an Uncharted member already, it's free as always. And part two is happening in June. It is June 25th. It is also a two hour workshop, also $99 for our non-members and free to our members. And it is be a part of a happier team, strategies to build an appreciation culture in your practice. So this is going to be an even more in depth look at workplace appreciation, but the actual practical how do we apply it in our practices. To find out more, head on over to the website at unchartedvet.com.

Dr. Andy Roark:
We are going to hit the pause button for one second, because I have to give some shout outs. I have to say a huge giant bottom of our hearts thank you to some of our industry partners who just joined Andy and I, and the rest of the team and, the Uncharted gang in Greenville for our April Uncharted conference. Because without our industry partners, we could not continue to do the good work that we do at Uncharted. And we especially couldn't continue to have live events and make them amazing and fun. And that is exactly what we did this past week in Greenville. So I just want to give out a huge shout out and thank you to our friends at CareCredit, at Hill's Pet Nutrition, and Nationwide. Patrick, Emily, Sharon, Omar, Mike, you guys are amazing. It was so much fun to spend time with you in Greenville. And Andy and I just want to say thank you from the bottom of our hearts. And I know that the Uncharted community wants to thank all of your companies. Because you guys are amazing, and we appreciate your support.

Stephanie Goss:
All right. So let's talk a little bit about having these types of conversations before they get to the critical breaking point. We have situations where management structure changes and people make significant changes to their behavior. Usually these things come on more slowly. Usually we start to see negative behavior pushback questioning. It usually starts small, right? It's called a shifting baseline. And usually, it starts with a little bit of eye rolling. And then there's some grumbling. And then there's a little bit of complaining in the hallways. And then there's walking out of the staff meeting, which is a big thing. Not saying anything, but leaving. And then there's the open this is not working. How can you say this?

Dr. Andy Roark:
And it creeps up to that. It doesn't usually start that way. So the first thing that I always like to say is address it early. That's the action step is don't let it become a pattern. And it becomes a pattern because as you said earlier, and you're right, we have a lot of conflict-averse people in vet medicine. We have a lot of people who want to be liked by everyone. And these are hard management lessons to learn. I always feel bad when I'm like, “Look, everyone's not going to,” and you and I talked about this when we talked about being friends with the staff. You said, “Look, some people are not going to like you. You need to suck it up. You need to accept that.” And I'm like man, that sounds so harsh. And neither of us mean that in a you're in charge now. That's not how we mean it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
But there should be a little bit of internal toughening and understanding of you are the maker of hard decisions. And there will be people who don't come down on what you decide every time. And that's it. And as such, it is your job to balance the needs of the staff and to make the environment a positive place for everyone. And that means that you are going to have to have some uncomfortable conversations with different people to maintain that balance. Because otherwise, you're not going to balance it. And some people are going to ride rough shot over others and their behaviors are going to grow.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And it goes back to what I said before the break, which is a big thing in management for me is you pick your poison. Which is, would you rather have an awkward conversation now, or would you rather do significant cleanup in three months? And you've got people who are ready to quit. You've got five people who are angry, and you have one person who's put themselves in a position and has built a track record of breaking the rules and acting in a negative way. And now, you got to figure out how to deal with that. Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark:
You know what? Over time, I have just come to believe with certainty that the awkward conversation is better. The other part of this I will say too is it doesn't have to be wildly awkward. I had a conversation recently with someone who was like oh my gosh.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So the story is, so I do improv comedy. So I was playing improv comedy. And someone who was on the improv comedy team that I was on, we were practicing improv comedy. So there wasn't an audience. We were just messing around. We were doing funny stuff and the person just, and again, in improv comedy, you make up everything on the spot. So it's all off the cuff, and it's fairly high stress and high pressure, right? Because you're creating this theatrical performance out of thin air. And a lot of times you react on instinct and things like that. And this person made a choice that could be conceived as stereotyping or be conceived as racist in the choice that they make. And it wasn't wildly awful or anything, but you go you know what, this could be conceived in a negative light. So we sort of finished up what we were doing. And then the discussion among a couple people was, “Well, what do we say about this?” And the discussion came down to we know this person, and they're a very kind and nice person. And we don't think that they're our intention was to offend or to belittle anybody at all.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So we want to say something because we don't want that to happen on stage or in front of an audience. And we don't want to continue to have that just be a part of our, it's not who we are. It's not what we represent. And it's a behavior that needs to be corrected. But the question is, how severely do you approach that? Do you call a team meeting and sit this person down and say these things? Or do you have someone sort of pull them aside for a second and say, “Hey, I just want to put something in your mind.” And just say it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And a lot of times I think we know we need to have the ‘awkward' conversation. And to us, we take it seriously enough where it's about something that's important that we think it needs to have formality to it. And my point is a lot of times, you can absolutely correct behaviors, and make changes, and make people aware of things with minimal fanfare and in a very soft way. And we know that this guy, if we mention it to him, he's going to feel terrible. And he's going to say, “Oh my God, I did not even than think about that. I'm really sorry.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And that's going to be the end of it. So there's no need to have a make it a big thing, but it needs to be addressed. So anyway, I use that example of something I saw fairly recently of there can be a tendency just to be heavy handed. When in reality for most people, they're having a bad day. And if you just say a little something and say it with some compassion, they're going to get it, and they're going to change behavior. And they're going to see oh yeah, I can understand why that was maybe perceived that way.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I think a lot of times we either air by not having the conversation or a lot of times we air by making it a big deal. And that adds to awkwardness and all adds to fall out, and makes us not want to have more of those conversations.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. You said something that's really important to me, which is when you're thinking about it and processing it, your response was, “Okay, I know this person. And I know that that would not be their intention to use racist language, or make a statement the way that they made it, or whatever.” Because if they knew the impact, if they knew my reaction would be X, they would not have done Y. I know who they are as a person.

Stephanie Goss:
That for me is one of the foundations. That idea, I learned it when I was learning how to have hard conversations. And one of the tools that I learned about was this idea called nonviolent communication. And for me, that is a foundation part of this. When I'm having a conversation with somebody, it makes the conversation easier to have to just say, “Hey, when this thing happened, I had this response to it. I know you. Based on our relationship, I know that you would not intentionally want me to feel like this. So I just wanted to say something about it, because it made me uncomfortable or it made me feel very awkward.” Or whatever the feelings you have are, right? You're sharing your experience with that person. You are framing it for them. “I'm not angry at you. I'm not upset. I'm not taking this personally because I know you. We have a relationship. And I know that inside of the context of that relationship, you would not want this to be the case.”

Stephanie Goss:
And I think that that's such a great example because it ties back directly to this person. If you have somebody on your team, you have a relationship with them. Even if they're a brand new member of the team. When I think about team, to me, that looks like people having each other's backs. And it looks like people who are supportive and who care about one another. And if I shared with somebody on my team, “Hey, you did this thing.” Or, “Hey, you said this thing this way. And it made me feel like this.” And I asked them for their help in not making me feel like that again. Shouldn't somebody who's on your team who you have a personal relationship with, shouldn't they want to change their behavior very simply and easily to your point, right? It's not a big production. It's not a big, “Hey, we're having a formal disciplinary conversation because this behavior can't continue.” It's, “Hey, “I value you as a person. We have a relationship and I need your help so that this doesn't happen again in the future because of the consequences or because it made me feel.”

Stephanie Goss:
Those are all setting it up correctly so that you are sharing your personal experience and using I statements, and all of those things that you learn about when you were learning about formal communication. But your point is such a good one, that it doesn't have to be this big overworked thing. Right? It can be a simple as, “Hey, I know you didn't probably mean for this to come off this way.” This what I heard when you said. Just that this is the response I had on an emotional level, because then you're taking it into you. Like it is about you not about them. It takes the anxiety level down a few notches and it becomes easy to say what were you, even if you're wanting to ask a question, what did you mean by that? What were you trying to do? What was was the intention asking them without accusing them, “Hey, I think you had the wrong intention?” That changes the entire dynamic of the conversation. And I love that. I think it's so important and that is a tool that I use a lot when I'm looking at these conversations because it is a really good one to use.

Stephanie Goss:
Just like you have a relationship, a personal relationship with your improv comedy team and your partners. You as a manager, speaking to our writer and our listener here, you have a relationship with this person. And you should leverage that relationship and say, “I care about you as a person. I care about our relationship. I care about our team. This is how this made me feel.” Or, “This is how the team felt.” Nobody wanted to continue the meeting, and we had to end early and everybody walked out feeling really uncomfortable. I felt uncomfortable. Whatever it is, it creates the opportunity for you to give them your personal experience there and ask for their help moving forward.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Well yeah. Whenever you start to have a conversation that feels like you are in the manager role and they are in the employee role, that's a high stakes high stress situation. The best feedback is feedback that people don't even know they got. That is the best feedback. You know what I mean is when you bump into each other and you have a couple of quick words and they say, “Hey, I saw what you did. And I was thinking about I think that in the future, it may be more helpful or more productive, or I think it'd be received better if you considered making this change. What do you think about that?” And you're like, “You know what? That's a good idea. That is a good change. Thanks for that. Great, buddy.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And then it goes on and like I've heard those feedback conversation. You go, “That was a Jedi at work.” That was it. It was just low stakes, low stress feedback. And I think that that's what we should aspire to. The other part of it too, is there's, and this is just another trick out that same toolbox is seek first to understand when the person walks outta the staff meeting. If I'm at my best, my conversation with them sounds like this, and we're talking about what do you say? I'll say, “Hey, I saw you walk out of the staff meeting. What happened? What's going on?” And that's it. And I'm going to listen and they're going to say, “Well, I don't like this.” And I'm going to say something like, “Look, you seem to have really strong feelings or you seem to be really reacting emotionally to what's what's happening. Help me understand where you're coming from here.” And we'll have that conversation. And I'm listening to this person. Because I think a lot of times, the emotional reaction from a leadership side is how dare you disrupt this meeting? How dare you walk out? How dare you-

Stephanie Goss:
Because you're taking it personally.

Dr. Andy Roark:
100% you're taking it personally. Versus saying, “Hey, you were reacting very strongly. Help me understand why you feel this way.” And then when it's over, I probably can validate a lot of this person's feelings and say, “I understand this is a lot of change. And I do understand that you have concerns about getting the hours that you need. That makes a lot of sense why you would feel that way. And I'm going to commit to you and say, “I am going to do what I can, and I will work with you to make sure that your needs get met because I want you to be here. And in exchange, I need to make sure that you're not going to do things like that that are public, that send a message to the team that you're not on board, or that you're angry, or that sort of tank at the meetings. I'm always here and I'll always listen to you. But I need you to bring it to me this way and not to do public that things in front of the staff that are going to undermine what we're talking about or just distract people from the task at hand. Is that a fair agreement?” And again, it works better when these are not a pattern. That's the thing is once we get into dealing with a pattern of behavior, it's much more of an uphill battle.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. No, I love that you gave the example of how you do the mention, because you do that so well. And I think one of the challenges for so many of us as managers is that we do have a lot of conflict averse people in our field. And it may not be you as the leader that's conflict diverse. Might be of the other person. So as a manager, I've experienced that where pinning that person down and having conversation with them is real hard, because they don't like conflict. And if they know that you need to talk to them about out something, they're going to make themselves scarce, make it really hard to have a conversation because they already know. Right? So this is where I kind of have the 24 hour rule for myself.

Stephanie Goss:
So sometimes, it's always best when I can give that kind of feedback in the moment. And to your point, I think it actually is a great example. I've had that happen to me as a manager. Somebody walks out of the staff meeting and I'm like, “That's unacceptable.” You cannot choose to just walk out and not say something. That's not how we agree as a team to work together.

Stephanie Goss:
But if I chose to address that person after the meeting, it would be really hard for me on a personal level to keep my emotions under control, and not get hotheaded, and not go raging flaming sort of justice. And make it into a big disciplinary conversation. So one of the things that I had to learn how to do as a manager was give myself the space, calm down, take a walk, take a deep breath. And now sometimes, I can go take a walk, and come back, and have those conversations 20, 30 minutes later. When I was a young manager and just learning how to do this, I would give myself 24 hours, because I would need to go home and vent or decompress and really unload the anger because I leaned into those emotions very strongly at that point in my career.

Stephanie Goss:
But I would force myself to make a decision coming back to work the next day. I'm either going to say something about it now, or I'm going to let it go. I'm going to really truly let it go. I'm not going to let it go in the way that I'm still thinking about it and I want to reach for this as an example in the future and use it punitively, right? That's how our subconscious works. It's really easy for me to say oh yeah, I let it go. But I'm going to bring it up six months from now when the same thing happens again. Right?

Stephanie Goss:
So I would ask myself, am I going to choose to let this go or am I'm going to say something? And then I would say, “Hey, yesterday this thing happened. And I felt really strongly about it. And I really just want to talk to you. Can we just take a second to chat even privately?” Because for a lot of us, that's how do we have these conversations in a hallway full of people? We're in the pharmacy, we're in treatment, whatever. For a lot of us it's, “Hey, can we talk?” It takes practice, and it takes setting the tone and the culture for your team to feel like it's not weird to say, “Hey, can we go outside and have a conversation for five minutes?” And just truly have a conversation and not make a big thing out of it.

Stephanie Goss:
But for me, that was something that I had to set a rule for myself of okay, how do I mention this in the moment and also give myself the time to not get emotional about it and have that detachment? Because in the moment, that was really, really hard for me. And it stopped me from being able to not create a pattern, right? Because I would avoid the conversations, because I was angry or I was upset. I would let it go, but I didn't really truly let it go. And then I would find myself in a position where now instead of one example where I could have given them feedback in the moment about how I felt or how I wasn't okay with their behavior, now I'm talking about repeated incidents. And now I'm talking about a pattern instead of one single thing. And I think a lot of us as managers as we're learning and growing, find ourselves in that position where we're trying to deal with it when it's already become a pattern. And it's really hard to start that mention, the hallway conversations. It's really hard to have those when it's been ongoing, repeated behaviors that have happened over and over again, because now we've tied a lot of emotional energy into it. And now it becomes harder to stay detached like you were talking about.

Stephanie Goss:
So for me, I think your words are so, so important. Look, think about it. Maybe you're not even thinking about it for this person because maybe the pattern is already there, and it's not going to be possible for you to have those conversations without taking it personally and being able to mention it in the moment. But think about it for the next person that, “Hey look, the goal should always be start small when the stakes are low,” and just be able to say, “Hey look. This is the thing. This is how it made me feel. In the future could we do this?” Simple, easy to walk away, right?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree. So let's land this thing. Do you want to run through some wording stuff or some examples? How do you want to do this?

Stephanie Goss:
I would love that. So maybe I'll share the formula that I use, because this is how my brain works. And then maybe you want to tack on anything else in terms of how your brain would work. So for me, I am one of those people where I get nervous when it's emotional. And I can often stutter. So I have to process it for myself. Just how my brain works. So I have a little formula that I work myself through to frame a conversation in my head. But for me, it is very much about okay, I have to start with when the thing happens. So when I see you, when I hear you, when you say this, right? And I want to give them a concrete example. And for me, the most important part of it is when I'm using an example, I want to make them see it. I want it to be really crystal clear. I want it to be objective, not subjective. So for me, that's about thinking about what happened, saying it out loud. And the test I have for myself is if I look in the mirror and say out loud the thing that upset me and I can't in my mind see exactly what happened and how it happened, I say it over, and I reframe it. And I work myself through what is the example?

Stephanie Goss:
And it was funny because when I was reading through, I asked a writer to give us some of the examples, and some of them were great. And other examples, I was like I still don't know what that looks like. I need more information, more details. Right? So that's litmus test for myself is can I look in the mirror with my eyes closed? Would I be able to see in the mirror what is happening? And if the answer for me is no, then I start over. But it has to be this is the concrete example. And then it has to be about me. How did that make me feel? What was the impact, right? The impact of their actions. So the first part is their actions. The second part is their impact. So, “Hey Andy, yesterday when we were in a team meeting and you said no when I suggested an idea for how we could handle something as a team, that made me feel,” whatever. Angry, upset, emotional, right? I'm telling you the action that happened, making it concrete, giving them examples the day when it happened, stuff like that. How did it make me feel? What was the impact?

Stephanie Goss:
“I know that you wouldn't intend for me to feel excluded from this process. So in the future, could you do this instead?” Right? So I'm saying, “When the thing happens, this is the impact. This is how it makes me feel.” Think whatever. In the future, what is the change that I need to see? What is the change the team needs to see? It's not about you are doing this thing and it's unacceptable. It's you are doing this thing. This is the impact to the team. In the future, this is what I need to see from you. Because if I'm giving them all of those things, especially then if I'm following it up with, “I can support you as your manager by doing this,” right? “I'm going to commit to touching base with you once a week and seeing how it's going as you try and change this behavior because I know that changing habits are hard. We're building a new habit. We're doing something new.” This is how I'm going to support you.

Stephanie Goss:
Whatever that looks like, when they're committing to making that change and you're supporting them, if the behavior continues now all of a sudden it's not about this incident happened, this one thing happened, and I'm having a conversation with you about one thing. Now we're having a conversation as a manager of, “Hey, we had a conversation. I asked for the change. This is how I asked for the change. This is what you committed to me. You told me that this is what you were going to do and how you were going to do it. The change in the behavior is not happening.” Now we're talking about a pattern. Now we're talking about refusing to make changes after they have committed to it. That's a very different conversation from a disciplinary process, from a documentation process. That is very different than, “Hey, this thing happened one time and I gave you some feedback or some correction information.” Right?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Aye. Aye.

Stephanie Goss:
That's a fun edit for Dustin.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. So as I'm sort of going through this with you, I go okay. I definitely see this. I like your system. I think it's very similar to generally what I say, you know? So for example, thinking about sort of kicking this off and say, “When I see you on your cell phone during the staff meeting, it makes me feel like the work that I put into the meeting is not being appreciated. Or it makes me feel like the staff meeting is not valuable, because the whole point of having it is to communicate and to have people be present together. In the future, can you keep your cell phone put away and just be present with us? And I'll support you by trying to keep the meetings short, have an agenda. Make sure that they are maximally valuable. I'm not going to have you guys at meetings if you don't need to be there. Because I know your time is valuable.”

Stephanie Goss:
Dude, how could you say no to that? If somebody says that to you, I could give you an excuse. Or not an excuse. I could have a reasoning for why I did what I did. I was checking the timer on my phone because we have a patient who needs an insulin check. When you check their blood sugar at a specific time. So, “I was checking the timer on my phone. I'm sorry. I didn't mean for it to be the case.” Right? Because there are often, there are always at least two sides to every story. Right? And the truth is almost always somewhere in the middle of those things.

Stephanie Goss:
So you're creating an opportunity by saying exactly what you said and how you said it to me. You're creating an opportunity for me to maybe give you more information. And that is one of the important steps as a manager. That a lot of times I know emotionally, I tend to skip that step. I go from this is what happened. This is what I need to see happen. And it's hard for me because I lean into the emotion. It's hard for me to say, “You might have more information that when I find that information out, changes the way that I'm thinking or feeling.” Maybe it doesn't, but often time it will. So you by saying what you said create the opportunity for me to give you that kind of information. And maybe there's not. Maybe I was just checking Facebook, and maybe I feel guilty and I'm caught.

Stephanie Goss:
And I'm like, “Look, I'm really sorry. I really felt like what we were talking about in the meeting didn't pertain to me. And I was thinking about all of the other stuff on my list, and I just checked out, and I was checking Facebook, and I'm really sorry.” Right? But it creates that space in a way that doesn't feel like I'm in trouble, and I can't have a conversation with you.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And you could even go softer than that too and say something like, “Hey, I saw you on your phone during the meeting. Is everything okay?” And then they'll go, “It was daycare.” And you go, “That's fine.” And some people out there are hearing this and they're like, “I was doing whatever. I was getting a text from whatever,” blah, blah, blah. And they're like, “Well, what do you say when they make an excuse?” And the answer is you don't say anything. You say okay. And generally, most people if they're on their cell phone and the boss says something to them after the meeting like, “Hey, I saw you on your cell phone. Is everything okay?” The message being sent is, “I am aware that you were on your cell phone and that is abnormal behavior, which is why I'm asking you if everything is okay. And hopefully, we will not have to have this conversation again.” Right?

Dr. Andy Roark:
The point is I don't need them to apologize for being on their cell phone. I just want them to not be on their cell phone in the future. Right? Another example I was thinking of that this goes right back to our original letter is the person says, “Well I hate corporate.” So I think, “When I hear you say you hate corporate, it makes me feel really defeated because I'm doing everything that I can to try to make this transition positive and good. And I'm working really hard. And as the manager, I kind of see myself as part of corporate. So when you say I hate corporate, it honestly hurts my feelings. And I hope in the future that maybe you won't say that. I will keep doing whatever I can do to try to make this transition better. And you can always come to me with feedback and tell me how I can try to support you guys. But I want you to know that I feel really beat up when I hear that language.”

Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yeah. That's great. There was another example about this manager is trying to shift because they used to be on the floor. And they're trying to shift into taking a more active manager role. And they had been having a conversation with the team about why they weren't wearing scrubs, and working on the floor, and jumping in whenever anything was needed anymore.

Stephanie Goss:
And this person's response was, “Well, are we all just supposed to suffer because you won't help us?” So that's a great example of where you can say, “Hey, when you said that, it made me feel really defeated. I'm really trying to make a better environment for the team. And I feel like I really jump in and help when help is really needed. And I took that personally. And I know, at least I hope that you wouldn't intend to say that and mean for me to take it personally. Because I feel like we're teammates and I wouldn't want to be on a team with somebody who meant to intentionally hurt me. So I just needed to say something because it really bothered me. It really hurt my feelings.”

Stephanie Goss:
Because it's okay if that's the case. Whatever your response is as a manager, and this is where it gets into Andy and I can only give you ideas of what to say to a degree, and then it has to be about you and how did it impact you? What was the impact to the team? What was your own emotional response? But to be able to give somebody that example and just say, “Hey, this bothered me. I need to let you know that it bothered me.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. It's definitely leaning into vulnerability. But vulnerability, it's a powerful tool. That one about, “So the rest of us are just supposed to sufferer.” That was the exact one I thought to myself emotional detachment. That was the one when I was like, “We're going to have to practice some real emotional detachment.” Because especially if someone says that in front of other people, it's hard not to react very strongly and very negatively. And that's also if I started the episode and you're like, “Boy, Andy's not messing around with this person.” Yeah. I don't see this working out.

Stephanie Goss:
Yes. And that was also where I immediately thought of the client example, because that felt like emotional blackmail a little bit to me, right? It's like the client who says, “Well, because you won't do this thing for free, just don't care about animals.” That's where really have to lean into that detachment. And put this smile on your face because it's not about me. That's about you. And that really for me is an example of where if somebody is saying things like that in front of the rest of your team, that's toxic behavior. That's the kind of client where they're standing and grandstanding in the lobby. I don't keep those clients. Same as the team. When somebody is acting toxic in that way and it's affecting the rest of the team, that should be a good, hard conversation.

Stephanie Goss:
So look, you have the conversation and then you document it. And it can be a simple as saying a note in there file that says on the date at this time, we had this conversation. This was what was committed to in terms of change of action. Everybody thinks about documentation in terms of I move from nothing to a formal writeup. And most of us skip those steps in between that are the informal ones. It's just documenting that you had the conversation, what was said, and why was it said. And what was the outcome coming out of that? Because at some point, if someone is truly toxic like this, you're going to move in the direction of HRing them out of the position, right? Out of their role. Creating the opportunity for them to be happy somewhere else involves documentation. So you need to know, what are you going to do? And you need to follow that process. But before you get to that process, it doesn't mean that you can't and shouldn't also document that as well.

Stephanie Goss:
And I've got some links I'll drop in the show notes for you guys for some good tips on how do you do that? What does that look like? Because it is really important to have the conversation, document it.

Stephanie Goss:
And then something that you taught me is that look, the follow-up to these kind of conversations cannot just be negative, right? If we have a conversation about negative behavior and then the next conversation that you and I have is the fact that you're still doing this behavior and it's pissing me off, there's no reason why I'm giving you to change the behavior other than, “Hey, if you don't change this, you're going to lose your job.” Then I'm just banging you with a stick. Right? I'm smacking it against your head. There is no carrot. I have to have the carrot. So there has to be … look, look past the behavior that they're doing that is frustrating you. Not saying forever. Look beyond that. Are there things that they are doing that are positive? Because there has to be some sort of positive reinforcement. When you catch them doing something good, say something. And give them a little bit of reward, because we know how we train simple animals. Right? What you always say. We are as human simple animals. And we learn how to be motivated by treats, and rewards. And it's the same with our team.

Stephanie Goss:
So I think that is really important part of the step is don't just look at them, and it's really easy to do human nature. I have done it countless times as a manager where I'm working on a performance improvement or disciplinary action plan with somebody. And it's really easy for me to only see the negative and only look for the infractions. And it takes a lot more effort to look beyond that and look at the positive. But that step is so much more important if you feel like the relationship is worth trying to save. Especially if you feel like the relationship is worth trying to save.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I agree. Steph, we're out of time. That's it from me. Man, that was a good episode.

Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I hope this one helped.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Awesome guys. Take care everybody.

Stephanie Goss:
Take care everybody.

Stephanie Goss:
Well everybody, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. Thanks so much for spending your time with us. We truly enjoy spending part of our week with you. As always, Andy and I enjoyed getting into this topic. I have a tiny little favor to ask, actually two of them. One is if you can go to wherever you source your podcasts from, and hit the review button, and leave us a review, we love hearing your feedback and knowing what you think of the podcast. And number two, if you haven't already, hit the subscribe button. Thanks so much for listening guys. We'll see you soon.