Does Anyone Care About The Details?

A frustrated veterinary practice leader wonders why it seems like the details no longer matter to their team. This week on the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Practice Management expert Stephanie Goss and Dr. Andy Roark tackle their shortest mailbag question ever: does anyone care about the details? Together, they work through the headspace behind this question, discussing the complexities of veterinary medicine and how to foster honest conversations that lead to accountability. From fecal loops to technician tasks to tardiness, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss walk through real-life examples, offering valuable action steps to help the team understand why the details matter. Let's get into this episode…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Episode Transcript

Stephanie Goss: Hey, everybody, I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are taking what might be the shortest mailbag question that we have ever gotten. And that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty for us to get into. We had a great time answering this question of how do we get the team to care about their whole job, even the pieces that are not so much fun?

We'll tell you more about it when we get into it. Let's get into this, shall we?

Dr. Andy Roark: And we are back, it's me, Dr. Andy Roark! And the one and only Stephanie, all the small things, Goss!

Stephanie Goss: I can't, I can’t with you.

Dr. Andy Roark: I totally did this introduction without a microphone, and then I just pulled the microphone up and just immediately did it again and Stephanie just..

Stephanie Goss: That’s fine. We're off the rails already.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, it was not the most graceful launch. Have you ever seen a pelican? Have you ever seen a pelican take flight? That's kind of what it looked like. It was not graceful. Got like a fish flopping around in his mouth. Like that's that's what this launch session is looking

Stephanie Goss: Andy, the Pelican Roark.

Dr. Andy Roark: That’s right.

Stephanie Goss: How's it going, Andy Roark?

Dr. Andy Roark: It's good. It's really good. Oh yeah. Heck yeah. Stayin busy havin a good time. yeah, it's funny, I, I'm feeling real validated right now. I'm feeling really validated. There's a, there's a book, there's a book that came out recently called Bad Therapy.

And it's about kids in therapy. And, it's not anti therapy at all. But it's about you know, maybe not all therapy is good. And maybe some people who call themselves therapists, just like people who call themselves mechanics or veterinarians, are not the best. Yeah, exactly right. And, one of the big things that it hammers on, which I have felt for a long time, is the idea that maybe rumination over hard things, or bad things, without a plan, is a bad idea.

Like, maybe, just bringing up painful memories and sitting with them, if you don't have a plan to do something with them it might be a bad idea. And, it's super validating, because I figured that out a year or two ago, and was just like, this is, I'm not doing this anymore. And, at that time, I stopped reading the news.

And Allison was like, you're not gonna stop reading. And I was like, I am, and I did. Like, last September, I stopped reading the news because I'm like, this is not actionable. Like, I will read news on things that I actually have a voice in, or that I can intervene in, but I'm not reading it other than that.

And my life has been so much better. And ask me how many major news stories I have been unaware of. Zero. I don't live in a bubble. I just don't have to go and wait around in a lot of the awfulness, so. Anyway, that's– I just feeling real validated today when I was like, yeah. I figured that out. I don't need to sit in angry hurtful emotions or stuff like that.

If, if I don't have a reason to do that and it's not actionable. And so anyway, feeling, feeling just validated. How about you? How are you, how are you doing? Good.

Stephanie Goss: You know, you know, I am great. The sun is out in Washington again, and..

Dr. Andy Roark: You're in your, you're back in your closet, brought, where you record?

Stephanie Goss: I am back in the cloffice and I am, I am back in the cloffice and I am actually contemplating ripping out a wall and putting in a window this weekend. So, you know, we'll see where that goes.

Dr. Andy Roark: In the closet? You're gonna put a window in the closet? 

Stephanie Goss: in the, in the cloffice.

I need, I need a window. I need some light. I need some sunshine. So I'm, I'm contemplating, I'm contemplating tackling putting in a window myself this weekend. So we'll see how that goes.

Dr. Andy Roark: I like the cloffice. It just, when you first said it, it made me think of where vampires work, like the coffice. But it's nice, the cloffice.  

Stephanie Goss: I have it's interesting. So we have this, this is kind of, kind of a mailbag. We, we got a mailbag question that was maybe the shortest question we've ever gotten.

Dr. Andy Roark: We got a one sentence mailbag question. I was like, bam, deal with this.

Stephanie Goss: And it's..

Dr. Andy Roark: It was like a mic, it was like a mic drop mailbag question. Boom.

Stephanie Goss: It was interesting because I'd been reading some posts in some of the groups that I'm in around the same time that I had read this mailbag and I saw some conversation that linked to it. So even though this was. The shortest mailbag we've ever gotten.

I think there's some serious legitimacy here. And I know that as a manager and a practice leader, like I have felt this, but basically, if someone was like, how do I have the team know that the little things matter, like the little pieces of their job that are their job. It might not be fun, but it's still really important and it matters.

And so how do I get them to care about the little things? And it's so, I thought it was so funny because we generally have this conversation a lot with practice, I mean, I think anybody who's in charge of managing people feels it because of the difference between what you expect and what you get.

And so I was like, Oh, there's a lot of, even though this is the shortest email we've ever gotten. I think there's a lot of meat on this bone for you and I to go after.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. I am, I'm super fired up about this. So, yeah, this is, this is a good one. How do you have the team know that the little things matter? headspace, we start with headspace just, and again, I don't know exactly what this refers to.

First of all, let me just say, I love when there is like a, a battle on the internet, just the whole vet internet gets into a fight and then we, and then we get a mailbag question that's just like kind of, kind of vague, but if you're looking at the internet, you're like, I know exactly what this is about.

And so I, I always love that. And so it just,

Stephanie Goss: Oh, I, I, well, I'll give us a great example right off the bat. The first thing that came to my mind when I read this was my own experience over the years when you have someone who is VA, who's training to be a licensed technician, or you have someone who has gone from being unlicensed to licensed and so now they can all of a sudden help in surgery and they can you know, do all the blood draws and place catheters and do all of those things. And it is, I have had to wage, battle here when it comes to, I hear you and I know that surgery is fun for you and I know that you want to place all the catheters and do all the things and you still have to clean up after yourself because that's part of your job.

And so I think that's the first example that came to my mind is like shining of this is the fun shiny thing. And so of course you want to do that piece of your job and this is the other side of that piece of your job. And just because it's not fun and shiny doesn't mean that you don't have to do it.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Okay, cool. Alright, so let's start with headspace here. Now, I, because this is the headspace section of the podcast, I am going to say some things. It's just kind of what I would say to the person who's writing to roll around in their mind. The first thing that I always want to put forward here is just a little bit, this is a case of possibly making sure I don't need to check myself before I wreck myself. Meaning this is one of those angry manager thoughts, right? It's not the flaming raging sword of justice necessarily, but there's something there when you're like, “Why aren't these people following the rules? Details matter, people! Details matter”  And like, you can hear this, and maybe they're right, but also there's a reason that you can, like, totally hear this in manager voice details matt. Am I the only one who pays attention to standards and…?

Stephanie Goss: Can you please rephrase that and say that that's like the nitpicky, irritated manager voice? Cause I don't think I sound like that all the time.

Dr. Andy Roark: No, not all the time. Not all the time, but just when you’re having a bad day.

Stephanie Goss: Or just, just a lot of the time.

Dr. Andy Roark: Just most of the time. No, just when you're having a bad– It usually comes, it usually comes when things are hard. Again, this is like

Stephanie Goss: Sure.

Dr. Andy Roark: We're just goofing off here. But this is often what I hear when the straw breaks the camel's back. You know what I mean? There's like 

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, you're at the end of your rope. 

Dr. Andy Roark: There's seven real problems and someone left a fecal loop in the sink and don't standards matter anymore? And that's, that's where this disco says. So anyway, I just want to put that for us first. Put that up front and say let's make sure let's just take some deep breaths. Is this really about standards or is there other stuff going on?

Okay, so let's just say that there's stuff there really is stuff going on and people are you know, not doing the basic stuff. Okay, Flaming raging sword of justice check. We always talk about that. We talk about pulling the flaming raging sword of justice and taking heads. Do not allow yourself to get into a mindset.

The person asking this question has already kind of probably taken a bunch of little things and then rolled them together into a big thing. And now we're reacting to a big thing. And so you always got to be careful with that. And again, I'm so guilty of this too. And so, you know, let's just say that we, you know, we wake up in the morning and we get to the clinic and there's trash in the parking lot.

And then we go inside and I hear somebody telling like an inappropriate joke and there's no pet owners around or anything but they I catch the end of an inappropriate joke and laughs in the treatment room and then I go and sit down and there's a note to call somebody back because a client yesterday didn't feel like the invoice was explained clearly and those are those are three annoying little things And I can say, like, okay, these are the three things I have to work through.

Or I can roll them together and say, our practice doesn't care about quality. These people are not doing their jobs. And it's catastrophizing. But you just have to be careful about rolling those things together. When, like, I always say, you know, the difference between a struggling business and a thriving business, the struggling business has the same damn problem every day, and the thriving business has a different damn problem every day, and that's the only difference.

And so, we're always going to have these headaches. Just be careful about rolling them together into something bigger than they are, and, and, and like ascribing this, the team doesn't uphold standards idea to it. And I'm not saying that's what this person is doing, but, but I, I want to be wary of that and so that's just my first opening sort of cautionary position is let's just look at this and maybe have a snack let's maybe have a snack first and then let’s make sure..

Stephanie Goss: Make sure we're not Snickers 

Andy Roark: yeah exactly right just make sure that we're not we're not just just hangry 

uh if if we also feel like everyone is mad at us then that like I don't know maybe there's something going on here we should just put a pin in this for a couple of days see how we feel so let's start with that. 

Stephanie Goss: Yeah. And I think the other piece of that, that I try and ask myself is, am I rolling these things together? And the other, the other piece of it for me is, am I mad because this is a repeat thing or am I mad because. I'm hangry, or today just sucks, or whatever. Because if I'm not, if I'm not mad because it's a repeat thing then I can, it's much easier to set that aside.

And like you said, go, okay, maybe I'm hangry, maybe I'm rolling these things together, whatever. If it is a repeat thing, that helps me get into a much healthier headspace of, Okay, if this is a repeat thing, how have I handled it to this point? And start asking my questions about the rest of the headspace, like, am I assuming good intent?

Have I talked to them? Have I, you know, made myself clear? All of those things that we normally get into when it comes to headspace. And, and so I think that that for me asking myself, is this, is this a repeat? Really helps me know which direction to go in.

Dr. Andy Roark: This is fertile ground for telling ourselves stories

Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andy Roark: You know what I mean? It's like, and so, so the question I would ask myself is, what story am I telling? And it's like, well, this happened, and this happened, and this happened, and

Stephanie Goss: So she doesn't care about her job.

Dr. Andy Roark: That means that. And again, I don't know that's what this person is writing about, but that's what I have seen, and I've done that. I mean, we've all done that. Just check, check yourself real quick. Are we, are we telling ourselves stories? Okay, cool. Now, let's wade into this. So let's say that this is going on, and we sort of checked ourself. We say, nah, it was just, you know, Standards aren't aren't getting upheld the way they should okay cool the first thing for me, and this is cliche But it's a cliche for a reason, Seek first to understand um like hey guys umm What's, what's going on?

Like, why is this not getting done? Like, it's like, I'm making the assumption they don't care. They don't, their, their standards, their quality standards aren't as high as mine. Those are all assumptions. Like, what's, go, go with curiosity and compassion in your heart. And patience. And again, snack. If you haven't had the snack, you should have the snack. Have the snack. And then, and then just, but then go, the first thing is seek, seek first to understand. What do I not know? How have these people been set up to fail? What can I take ownership of? Like, what's my fault? What has not been communicated? And again, this is the open hearted, like, let's really figure out what's going on.

It reminds me of the movie Office Space, which I just love, but the old Office Space movie where they're always filling out TPS reports, and everybody's filling out TPS reports, and TPS reports are a system, and they were probably created with a good intention, and they're supposed to keep things organized, but now we've built this system in this movie where you have TPS reports have to be done all the time on everything, and it's, it's just, It's just perfect.

It's a busy work, and it's an obstacle to actually getting the real work done, or at least that's how they perceive it. Seek first to understand, like, what is the perception here? What is the reality? What's going on? How did, how did we get here? And just don't tell yourself stories, and related to that is of course assuming good intent.

Assume that these, don't, do not assume these people don't care as much as you do. Don't assume that they're lazy. Just assume there's something that you, that you don't know about, that there's a legitimate problem that we kind of have to address here. But that, I think that gets that gets you into that right headspace.

So that's, I think that's the opening place for me with headspace. And then I've got a couple of little bits after that, but I don't know. So assuming good intent, are you on board with that?

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, for sure. And I think the the, you know, our, our friend, Erika Cartwright tells I think she was doing a mic drop about, you know, the client's side of the story. And she told this story about how she's a very charismatic and outgoing personality. For those of you who have not experienced, Erika. She's crazy and, and loud and fun and all of the things that would go along with that. And she and I are trucker mouth friends. And so you can imagine her driving along in her, she's like, you know, barely five feet. And you can imagine her driving along in her big giant SUV just getting irritated and yelling at people who are driving like idiots or cutting people off or whatever. And the road rage is a real thing. And she was talking about how the way that she kind of cured herself of the road rage and really like brought her blood pressure down, cause it was real concern was to just force herself to look at the other car and say, Hmm. I wonder if they might be having diarrhea today.

And she just started asking herself that, like, what if that was happening? You know, it's like when you're driving and you see someone speeding and you ask yourself, maybe the person in the car with them is in labor. It's that same kind of thing of like, what is happening with them? And so I think the thing that Like you know, if you don't want to think about, is this person having diarrhea today?

The thing that I ask myself is like, you said this is ripe ground for us to make up stories in our head. And I think part of the way that I helped stop that in my own brain was to ask myself, could I tell another story here? And could I tell the story that they do care about the job? They just don't understand.

And whether it's understand what I want, understand what is expected of them, understand what the protocol is, what the process is… there's a, you know, a million different options that come at the end of that sentence. And it's the same kind of thing as like, what if that driver who's being a total a hole and just cut me off?

What if they're driving to the hospital because there's an emergency, you know, it's asking yourself that same kind of question. And when we say assume good intent, I've had people. I've had people who listen to the podcast go, I know you guys walk us through, you know, the steps that I know you walk us through safe.

And I know you, you know, I know you guys have talked about, assume good intent a million times and I don't know how to do that because, you know, because the stories that I'm telling myself in my head are X, Y, and Z. And so I I, that resonates with me because it is, it is a hard thing to do cause, you know, it's so the thing you should do, but that doesn't mean that getting yourself to that side is any easier.

And so I think one of the tools that I've really learned for myself is, if there's a possibility that I'm making up a story in my head about the situation, is to ask myself, what could the other story be here? 

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I agree. Okay. I want to make I want to end headspace here with a caveat I've got a little section of headspace here for my perfectionists in the audience or People who are maybe managing someone who is a perfectionist who's coming with us and again, this doesn't play everybody. But I will tell you the way I've seen this go down.

So one there's the person who goes these people are upholding standards. There's the other person who's in a management role. That has someone who comes to them and says these other people are upholding standards and it's driving me nuts. And so I, I think I've seen it. I have been the person who has been frustrated that people are upholding standards.

And I have been managing someone who's frustrated when I'm maybe not frustrated. And so those are different things. But anyway, just hear this out as I kind of roll it together. For my perfectionist people out there, one question that you want to think here when you're like, people aren't upholding these standards.

Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andy Roark: Remember to ask yourself sometimes. Is this a hill I want to die on? Is this a hill worth dying on? And I, I hate it. I have always, when I was young, I imagined the perfect team and the perfect business and everything runs smoothly and instead, you know what I got, Stephanie Goss. I got Stephanie Goss. That's what I got. It's the Muppet show over here. That's the, that's the business that I run. It’s Tyler Grogan and Ron Sosa, Stephanie Goss, Maria Pirita, just the list goes on. God, Dustin Bays, it is the absolute chaos and pandemonium in our business. 

Stephanie Goss: I was gonna say the, the biggest offender on our team is probably Kelsey Beth Carpenter.

Dr. Andy Roark: Kelsey Beth Carpenter. She’s like…

Stephanie Goss: Steph, Steph D is probably the closest to following all the rules on the team. 

Dr. Andy Roark: It’s a battle, it’s a battle of Order Muppets and the Chaos Muppets. But anyway, all joking aside there are, there are things that are worth fighting the battle with your team over, and there are things that are not worth fighting the battle with your team over. And just maybe let them not park as far away from the building as possible.

Maybe just give up on that dream. And maybe they can't park in front of the front door. But maybe just don't fight with them about parking as far from the building as possible and just let that one go. And so anyway, if that's you just think about is this a hill you want to die on. 

Stephanie Goss: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Andy Roark: And then the other thing that I will say now again, switching back to a little bit more serious tone here, too.

When I hear people come to me or they'll come to management or leadership and they're like these people aren't following the rules. Sometimes they have a legitimate point and corners are getting cut and we need to fix that and that's true. There's a couple other things that sometimes happen number one.

There are times when people want to feel like they have control by enforcing the rules and so they want to enforce a feeling of power or a feeling of control not in a malicious way. But they're like these things are supposed to happen and these people aren't doing the things that are written down and for them it's a feeling of these people need to be made to behave in the way that the rules are written and It's almost like a moral battle for them like this cannot stand this represents anarchy. And so I don't know if that makes sense or but if you've seen that but I I've definitely seen there's some people who have really really don't like it when they feel like the rules aren't being followed and it's not really about the rules and it's not even about the impact of not following the rules. It's about the fact that rules should be followed and that's not happening And so there's kind of that mentality.

Stephanie Goss: Right. And I think, I think, I'm glad you brought that up because I think as a manager part of, I like that you, you know, you brought up picking your battles. I think as a, as a manager, certainly, and as the leader of the hospital, if you cannot find a healthy place between the facts that. Some rules are going to be broken, and things are always not going to be perfect, and sometimes it's very messy, because veterinary medicine is a place where we live in the shades of gray.

If you cannot wrap your head around that as a manager, like, you are going to have a hard time, because we, we do have a lot of managers who in particular, who are, process and order people and they need there to be structure and they really struggle here with the team members who are like yeah, and I let go of that patient and immediately went to go help with this patient and so I felt like the patient care was a bigger priority than taking the fecal loop out of the sink and cleaning it, Right?

Like there are always, there's always going to be that battle. And if you can't– on either side of the equation, if you can't find that place of peace to be able to ask yourself, is this the hill I want to die on? You're gonna, you're gonna be super, super miserable. And so I think the thing for me, because on, on the other side of this, let me just say and acknowledge and validate, I have been that person who gets very frustrated with the fact that rules are not being followed because I'm like, why do we have the rules? If they're not gonna be followed like just do the damn thing so there I see that side of it and I have also been the person on the other side of it who is like I just need the job to get done.

Like, I know that there's a process, but can you just do this thing? Like, get it done. And so, I think for me, one of the tools here to overcome the, the perfectionist tendencies or the need for it to be so black and white on either side is to ask myself, why is this a rule, or a system, or a process? And if I can't answer that question, like really, truly, and the answer can't just be, well, because that's the way we've always done it. If I can't tell you why we're doing something, and if the other person involved can't tell you why we're doing something, then there's a breakdown in communication, and that's That's the thing that I really need to work on, not the fact that they left the fecal loop in the sink, right?

Like that, I need to be able to answer that to not only assume good intent, but also to do my job as far as training the team and making sure that they have all the resources to do their job.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, you want to be careful about rule enforcement as a brake pedal against change and I've seen that a lot as well. So there are people who don't like change and they don't want your business to change or they don't want to innovate or do things differently. They like the way things were and they want to stay that way and I have seen people who with that mentality.

And again, I don't think it's malicious. They like rules because rules entrench the current state into the into the culture. And they make change much harder because now change involves breaking rules or changing rules, which is a bureaucratic process, as opposed to just like, no, you know what, we're going to do a little bit differently today.

Well, if, if I say, you know what, guys, we're going to run, we're going to run dentistry's a little differently today in our, in our, in our general prep. If that's against the rules, then you have a weapon to shut that down and say, Oh, no, we're not Andy. We're going to do it the same way we always do. Cause those are the rules. And so again, just not to vilify, but again, I just, I do see those behaviors and I don't think people are malicious. I think some people really don't like change and the rules make them very comfortable. And so enforcing rules can be a brake pedal when things are starting to change or evolve or adapt, which is something to be aware of.

And then last is just be careful of rules as an enemy to autonomy, meaning like, like you said, it was a perfect example of I left the fecal loop in the sink because I saw a patient that needed help and so that seemed to me in the moment, looking around using my eyes and my training and my judgment that was the right call and you say well the rules would go against the call that you made and you go well, that's that's taking away this person's autonomy and so we want to be careful about having rules that are that nitpicky. And the last thing is if rules show your team that you don't trust them. Yeah, you have rules because I don't trust you to make common sense decisions.

I would say yeah, that's a little it's a little sticky. So anyway, I'm sorry. I've talked all about headspace. I've talked all about headspace and a lot about checking ourselves and checking complaints about rules but it's just because I I do see that stuff a lot and seek first to understand, don't be, be aware of the stories you're telling yourself, and all that to say, if we come down to a place and the standards are not being met, we're going to fix it.

And so let's let's take a break, Stephanie, and then we'll come back, and let's get into the action steps of actually getting, getting the small things done.

Stephanie Goss: Okay. That sounds good.

Hey friends. If you're listening to today's podcast and you happen to be in a medical director role. Listen up because this one's for you on May 29th, we are doing our second annual Uncharted Medical Director Summit. That is, we are bringing together medical directors from all walks of veterinary life. Doesn't matter whether you are in private practice, corporate practice, nonprofit GP, ER shelter, medicine, academia, and so much more. If you are in a medical director role, we have got something that you are not going to want to miss. So, if you've never experienced an Uncharted Summit, you're going to want to check this out because it's different from a usual conference. We'll have an awesome general session presented by our friend, Dr. Addie Reinhard from MentorVet. We also will have a workshop session with three different workshops being presented by myself, Dr. Andy Roark and our dear friend, Dr. Erica Pounds, who is a multi-site medical director and all of them are going to be on topics relevant to the medical director role specifically. 

And then what makes it a summit? Giving you time to network and collaborate with your peers on the challenges that are unique to the veterinary medical director role. So it's going to be a jam packed day. It's one day it's on zoom. It's fast and it’s furious. It's not your usual zoom where you're sitting there listening to people talk at you, camera's on, we're going to talk to each other. We're going to engage. We're going to problem-solve real-world challenges that happen in your practices. So if this sounds like something you don't want to miss, head over to the website at unchartedvet.com/events. And sign up today now back to the podcast.

Dr. Andy Roark: We're back from our break. Okay 

Stephanie Goss: We gotta actually get serious.

Dr. Andy Roark: We gotta get serious here and get some work done. All right, so for me, action steps, if you want people to actually do the small things and pay attention to the details, the first thing is, you have to talk about why the details matter. Like why is this important? And there are some people who are like, it's a rule. It's written down. That's good enough, and I will tell you that is not good enough for a segment of people. I don't know how big a segment it is, but there are some people who are like, I don't, What, what are we, why is this important? Like why does it, why can't the fecal loop sit in the sink while I finish up with this patient and get this client out the door?

Why can't it just be there? And I'm not saying there's not a right answer, but that's their honest to God question is, why? What is the concern about this? And oftentimes, oftentimes, we can meet these people in the middle. And you say, well, because what happens is, all the fecal loops pile up, and then one person gets stuck doing them, and blah, you know, and blah, blah.

Maybe there's a, there, maybe there's a way to meet in the middle between, you need to make the client wait while you do this, and these have piled up and now there's a bunch of them and people are cleaning up other people's fecal loops and it feels, you know, they feel resentful and blah, blah, blah. Maybe, maybe, maybe there's a, maybe there's a healthy middle another way we could do this, but, but we gotta start off with, with why.

Stephanie Goss: It's so funny that you said that because I was talking to some so when I was reading some of the, the threads around the time we got this, and there was one in particular, that was someone who was struggling with this scenario I gave at the, at the beginning of this, which is like, they have a newly promoted technician and they're leaving parts of their job for other people to do because they're like, well, I am qualified now to do this job, all of these other things. And so that should be my first priority. And other people who are not licensed should be able to do some of these tasks. And that's, some of the managers, like the first set of responses was, well, you need it, you need to have it written down in their job description that they have to do this, or you need a protocol that says they have to do this, this piece of it.

And it was so funny because that's where the like, what you were saying in the headspace about that you're trying to enforce rules to have control. Like that was the response from a bunch of the managers who were like, we'll put it in writing and then it will solve the problem.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, put it in writing and make them do it! Enforce your control! Flaming raging sword of justice! Like yeah, I get it. 

Stephanie Goss: And it's so, and it's so funny because I was like, okay, for me, it's a yes, and because if it is really important, it absolutely should be in writing, it should be written down. And if you can't answer the why, it goes back to what I said, if you can't answer why, and the other people on your team don't understand or can't answer why, don't write it down.

Because it's not actually important enough to be included in protocols or processes or policies if everybody on the team doesn't understand the why.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Well, look, look I mean hear this if you have an idea you have a thing that you want and your way of implementing it is not explaining it and not getting people to buy into it, your way of implementing is writing it down and make it a rule and then punish people who break the rule, you're going to have a shitty culture, pardon me. You're going to have a, you're going to have a, beatings will continue until morale improves culture, that is not, it's not how you make people want to work at your place by creating rules that seem arbitrary to them and then saying it's written down and so you're out of line, like that's not, it's a terrible place to work and again, I get it.

And I've seen this, but this is the, this is one of the frustrating things in leadership. If you want to be good, sometimes you have to slow down to go fast. And what that means is you have to have the conversation with people about what we're doing and why we're doing it. And then you can write it down and then you can hold people accountable to it and you can remind them of why we're doing this, but if you don't have a compelling reason why your rule is what it is, I'm not sure that person's in the wrong. I think maybe you should think about whether or not this rule really makes sense.

Stephanie Goss: Right. And, and I think that it's, this is one of those things that you know, when, when I read it, it hurts my heart because I know that for the vast majority of people who I see reading it, responding in this way of, I need to write it down because then I can enforce the rule and I can hold people accountable.

They don't have the malicious intent. They don't have the intention to have the, the, you know, the beatings will continue until culture improves morale. Right. They're using the tool that someone has shown them, and it's like, it's like, you know, when you're taught that giving someone feedback means you give them the compliment sandwich, and you give them a compliment, and then you smash the feedback in the middle as the crappy part, and then you give them another compliment to soften that blow.

We do it because we do it because maybe we don't know any different or because that's the tool that we've been given. And I see this style of, I'm going to write it down and I'm going to incorporate it into our processes or protocols or handbook or whatever. I see that from a lot of young managers. And that was when, for, for me, that was a tool that I was given in the beginning of my career, my practice owners were like, yeah, this is unacceptable, so write it down, and then if somebody does it, then we have a reason to let them, let them go, right? Like that, that was, 

Dr. Andy Roark: That’s a hard tool.

Stephanie Goss: It is a hard tool. And when you're, you don't know, you don't have the training. I always say, you know, veterinarians go to vet school to become veterinarians.

They don't go to vet school to become business leaders. Most of them. And it's the same for, for managers. Like so many of us have come up and, and leaders on the floor have come up. And so, you know, I think it's important to recognize, like, I, I see you and I hear you. I have been that person who's like, Oh, well, this is the tool that I'm going to apply.

And I think your point, Andy, is super, super valid, which is, you can absolutely do that. And, having done it, and having screwed it up, I can say, I think both you and I can safely say, this is a way that we have royally screwed this up. And so,

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, let me, I think, I think this really summarizes the core belief, the core philosophy of Uncharted right here. And so a lot of people listen to this podcast and they're like, well, what exactly is Uncharted? I mean, Andy and Stephanie talk about business stuff, but what is, what is Uncharted relative to everything else?

This is, this is what Uncharted is. So Uncharted is taking this tool, which is a good tool. It works. And Uncharted's philosophy is, this is a good tool. You are not going to use this tool until you sit down with people and look at them in the eye and talk to them about why this is important. And listen to them. 

Stephanie Goss: Give them time to learn.

Dr. Andy Roark: Give them time to learn and listen to them. And have an honest conversation about why this is important. What we want the experience of working here to be and what our values are and and and how we care for our patients and what experience we want to create for our clients.

Stephanie Goss: And hear, and hear their feedback, because they may have, they may have an experience that is completely different from yours, and if you can't listen to anything that they have to say, and, and the, I know that the first thing that comes out of a lot of people's mouths is, well, but what happens when it's just an excuse? Like what happens if they're just using it as an excuse to not do their job? You have to remind yourself. That's the, that's the angry, that's the angry manager headspace that we were talking about at the very beginning of this podcast. You're in that headspace because the reality is people don't come to work every day wanting to do a bad job.

And if, and if that is your gut reaction is like, well, they're just giving me an excuse. Like I am listening to them. I'm asking them why it happened. And cause this is part of the learning process. Like it takes time to get there. And you get into the space of, okay, well, I asked them and I listened and then their feedback was, well, I just went to do this other thing, but this is still important. And so they're still not doing their job. You have to like, really, really listen,

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, you do.

Stephanie Goss: You know, because it may be in the moment, they didn't do it. And it and it is somewhat of an excuse. And if there is feedback there, like, This may not be realistic because dot, dot, dot. And then they tell you something to your point, Andy, like that's how you learn the middle ground to meet them in the middle.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. You can't discount the idea that perhaps the person who's working on the floor actually doing the thing has some insight into it that you in your manager's office or in your doctor's office don't have. And so, again, don't, I mean, again. Maybe they are making excuses too. What is the worst case scenario?

The worst case scenario is, you end up doing what you were planning to do anyway, but at least you have tried to engage this person, and you have an understanding of what their feedback is, and you're still going ahead and doing it. But at least you tried the easy way and so that's that's the first thing is you've got to get a foundation in why why do we and again it doesn't people like I have to have this conversation for every little rule. No, no, you don't you need. 

Stephanie Goss: Cause if there is a clear why you don't have to have the 

Dr. Andy Roark: Exactly if you say so again, so so. Let's just explore this why a little bit. Generally I'm not gonna have a conversation with the team about every little rule but all of the little rules come together to create the overall experience.

And so if you haven't sat down with your team and said to them, Hey guys, let's, let's, I want to have a conversation with you guys. I want you to imagine a really great veterinary team. I want you to imagine that. What does that team look like? How do they behave? What does their clinic look like? And they're going to say things like, well, they treat each other with respect, and they smile, and the clinic is clean, and the equipment is well maintained.

You go, yep, and you're going to write all those things down. And then you're going to say, what do they sound like? They give each other positive feedback, and they encourage each other, and they don't badmouth the clients. You say, okay, cool. What does it feel like to work in that team, guys? At the end of the day, what does that feel like?

And they're going to say, it feels like, it feels rewarding. It feels like we're working hard, and we're getting things done. It feels like we're making a difference. They're going to say whatever they're going to say. And every team is going to be different. There's not a right answer, but they're going to tell you what that is. And then at the end of that conversation, you're going to say, are some things that we can do, or what are some things that we can agree to as a team so that we can look like and sound like, and feel like a great veterinary team, and then you're going to shut up and you're going to let them tell you what they want to do and what they're excited about.

And then you're going to lean in and you're going to support them. Then we're gonna get started, and we're gonna, and we're, this is our time to say, hey, we've got some, we've got some rules in place, we're agreeing that we're gonna do this, and, and this is, and now we're gonna start, we're gonna go forward, and I wanna support you guys in this, and it shouldn't all be stick either, like, that's the other thing, is 

Stephanie Goss: Yes. 

Dr. Andy Roark: It should not be, it should not be a punishment culture. It should be a positive, are you celebrating them when they live the values? Are you celebrating them when they do the good work? Oftentimes, you know, I use this example all the time. People are simple animals. I don't care how many degrees you have, how smart you are, you're a simple animal. And we don't train people, we don't train simple animals with negative reinforcement, do we?

Like, we figure out how to positively reinforce and we do it. And humans are the same way. And so if you want people to follow the rules, what are you doing to positively reinforce them following the rules? Like, how do you, how do you do that? And anyone who tries to push back and say, well, it's their job.

I go, all right, seriously, let's think about this. My job, my dog's job is to be a good dog. He ain't doing it. If he doesn't get positive reinforcement, you know, it's just, you've got to, if you want to have a good culture, you have to build it with positivity, you

Stephanie Goss: It can't be, it can't be a transactional. It can't be the, you just show up and do your job and I give you a paycheck. And that's why we have a relationship because that is, no one wants to work in that environment.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, even the example that you gave earlier, I think is a good one, right? So we've got this person. Let's say that they were a VA and they have finished their training and now they're a vet tech. Right. So they've gotten credentialed and they're doing it now. And they're like, well, I shouldn't have to do those things because other people are more capable of doing those things.

That person is not necessarily wrong. You can run your business in different ways. You could a hundred percent, like it's not heresy or stupid to say, I want my credit credentialed vet techs doing things that only credentialed vet techs could do. That's not a bad business model and that's not wrong, but if everyone's expectation is no, we all, we all take cases from start to finish and that's how we run our business. That's not wrong or bad either. Not at all. But you can't have one person whose philosophy is credential vet techs only do things credential vet techs can do. And another person who says, no, we all take a case and we stay with that case from beginning to end.

Those are conflicting systems. And so sitting and talking with them is not bad, but hear them, hear what they say, and talk about the decision that was made and talk about, Hey, you know, here's the thing. We, we look at that model, the downside, and I would, I, I always like to ask the other person the question.

What do you think the downside of that model is? Think about, think about where, where does that model, why do some people not like that model? Well, because when you're new, you're cleaning fecal loops all the time while the experienced people are doing all the fun stuff. Like, yeah, that's the answer. And we want, we have a, and if it's on growing and training.

And so that's why we decided this is not because we don't think your skills are valuable. Not because we think that you couldn't do other things or we don't have enough work. We want to grow and develop people, which means we don't want to have people who can only do the most basic of work because other people get to do all the fun stuff.

And so that's just what we decided. And that's the why. And if they, if they hate that why, they go, I fundamentally don't agree. Unfortunately, they might not be a good person for your practice because that's, yeah, That's, that's your, how you decide to grow your business. But at least we're having conversation about the purpose and, and why things are the way they are.

And, that person can feel heard and I'm going to do my best job to be a good active listener. And then ultimately we're going to say, well, this was the decision that was made and this is how we need to go forward. And now we're going to switch over and start holding people accountable.

Stephanie Goss: And I think when you, the other thing that I would say is a lot of the time, and I don't know about you, Andy, but I feel like a lot of the time I get asked the question of like, I don't want to have to be the one to mediate these conversations. Like, how do I get them to talk to each other? Like when somebody is, you know, when somebody is leaving their mess for other people to clean up, how do I get them to talk to each other about that instead of coming to me and being like, well, you know, now that Avery's a, you know, an RVT, she's not finishing her cases. She's just bailing and leaving our mess for, you know, Sarah to clean up as the, as the VA. When you have a culture where you consistently have everybody involved in creating the why, and they understand it from both sides, it makes it easier for them to hold each other accountable.

It makes it easier for Sarah to be able to say, hey Avery, you know, I know you wanted to get that next patient into, you know, into surgery and I know that you were, you know, just trying to get, get things going and this is how it impacted my case cause you know, then Dr. Sarah asked me to bring a patient in and there was no clean space and so, hey next time would you, you know, be able to just finish your case from start to finish because we all, we all agreed that that was how we were going to do cases in the hospital.

Like, would that, you know, can you, can you help me out there? Those conversations only happen in an environment where there is the psychological safety, but also where there is the trust and the trust comes from what, when everyone understands the why. And so for me, the Jedi place as a leader is to get to the, the team has those easy, hard conversations, if you will, of talking to each other because they all know the why and they can have, they can say that to one another.

And I have to deal as the leader with the ones where they're like, hey, we've had these conversations and this is consistently still happening. And the reason I've been given is just because I don't agree with that. And so I'm going to do it my way because that's something they can't deal with as a team member.

That's something that's for me to deal with as a leader, to your point, to say, Hey, maybe this is not the right hospital for you. I want to deal with those kinds of conversations, but that only comes when we create that space where they're all involved in the why. And it's just as easy for one of them to say, hey, I need your help. Can, can we, can we do this? Like that comes naturally when they're involved in the why.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, that, that is the Uncharted way. Like, that is the uncharted way. It's not about me policing people. I hate that. It's about us having a good conversation with the group and having them encourage, support, appreciate, praise, and sometimes gently correct.

Stephanie Goss: Right.

Dr. Andy Roark: And, but that only happens with this conversation.

Okay. Once you get through that step, which I think is really important, and there's a million ways to do it, it depends on, on what we're talking about. Once you get through that step, the internet advice is probably fairly accurate from the basic blocking and tackling. Set clear, set clear expectations, have clear metrics that people can see, so they know that there, if I thought I cleaned the exam room and I didn't meet your standards of cleaning the exam room, I don't know that because I thought I cleaned it and you're like, he didn't clean it. And so, that's, those are, the expectation may be clear to some, that the exam room has to be cleaned, but the metric you're using for cleanliness, I'm, I'm not understanding.

Stephanie Goss: Yeah. What does clean look like? Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark: Exactly yeah, and so, clear expectations, clear metrics, and then, and then, this again, this is also uncharted territory right here. Feedback. Culture. You cannot police culture. You cannot catch people breaking the rules until you have a good culture. You have got to celebrate culture. You have to celebrate the people who are showing the values that you care about, that are making your hospital the place you want it to be. Celebrate, celebrate, celebrate. And a lot of us, we don't do that because it takes a lot of work.

Stephanie Goss: Yes.

Dr. Andy Roark: But that is, that is where the rubber meets the road. And so, talking to people about not meeting expectations should be a small part of the feedback you give. The majority should be saying, Hey, I saw you grabbing those fecal loops and cleaning everything up, and I know that those probably were not all your cases, and I just want you to say, I saw you, and I appreciate you.

Thank you for doing that. You know, or write a thank you note and just say, Hey, I just wanted you to know, I've noticed recently how much you do around here, and it really matters to me. And again, that is time well spent, but a lot of us, we say, if it's not broke, I'm not going to touch it. That's, that's, that's not a, it's not the investment you think it is.

So anyway, so there's that. Document mistakes. And then manage the wrong people out, you know, so if we had the conversation and we said these are the expectations and people fail to meet the standards or they don't follow the rules or they continue to cut corners and you say, you're cutting corners in a way that is not acceptable, we are going to be a higher quality practice than the medicine that you are determined to practice.

There's no reconciling that. You know, if I have communicated it and I'm holding someone accountable and they refuse to change, there's, there's only one way out of this. Again, you always, you pick your poison. You always pick your poison. Do you want to be a practice that practices that quality of medicine?

Or do you want to part ways with that person who's determined to practice that way? Those are the only two options after you've had conversations and managed. If they're not changing, pick your poison. Those are your two paths. 

Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm. And I think where you, where you started in the very beginning with the idea of, is this the hill you want to die on? That's really important here because do you want to fire someone because they're leaving fecal loops in the sink? You, as a manager, you have to ask yourself questions that seem nuts like that.

It's like, this seems really, I can't, it's surreal that I would fire somebody for leaving fecal loops in the sink. If your answer, if you don't understand why your answer would be yes, probably not the hill you want to die on. And so if your answer is yes, then you, from an action set perspective, absolutely have to ask yourself, like, did I make it clear?

Do they know how to do, to your point, do they know what clean looks like in the exam room? Have we trained them? Have we practiced? Have we done all of the things? And that, that comes with the documentation. And for, again, for a lot of us, this is where our tools as managers was, well, you just tell them that they didn't do it.

And then after you've told them once, then you write them up and then you write them up again, and then you fire them the third time. Well, okay. But telling someone, hey, you didn't do this thing is vastly different from actually making sure that they understand not only what does that mean, but to your point, how to do it right.

And then giving yourself, like if you on the other side of that equation are not working harder to recognize them doing it right, then you are working at catching them doing it wrong again, then you're not doing your job ass a leader. And I think that that's one of the hard realities because for a lot of us, we, that's the tool we're given.

Dr. Andy Roark: I, no, I agree with that. That's, that's the tool we're taught and we're given. It's just, I don't know, that's not, that's not the relationship you want to have. That's not the job you want to have. You know, it's just it's sad. But here's, here's the other reason it doesn't work, too. And I'll say this and everybody will be like, oh, yeah.

You know, so you're given that tool and so let's say that you've got this technician who just became a technician and now she's doing these things and she's doing other things. Let's just say that she's busting her butt. Say that she's not doing fecal loops. She's not cleaning up exam rooms, but she's everywhere else doing all sorts of stuff.

You're telling me you're gonna fire this person because she doesn't clean fecal loops. That's what you're gonna tell me and again, I see people in that boat all the time. They're like, she has failed to follow this rule, and now she's being written up. And I'm like, yeah, now what you gonna do?

You're gonna fire her over this rule that's kind of dumb, or that's not really that big a deal, even though she has this massively positive impact in all these other areas? How about you just talk to her instead, you know, but, but that is when people realize, I think that's when people feel really powerless is because someone said, this is the tool.

And when you first hear it, you're like, yep, that makes sense. And then you find yourself in the position I just described where you've got someone who did not buy into the why for this specific rule or these specific sets of rules, but otherwise are a good person who works hard and matches the values of the practice.

And you're like, what are you going to do? You're going to continue to hammer on this person that's 85 percent good for your practice and your patients that the clients like or are you going to step back and have a conversation and just sort of like try to try to reach a middle ground here and try to try to understand each other but people skip that step and it's just it ends up in a sad place.

Stephanie Goss: I think it's really important to be able to ask yourself about the hill and, and whether this is, whether this is a hill to die on, because for some people and for some practices, it may be, it may be the fecal loops in the sink are absolutely unacceptable. And there may be a reason in that practice that that is the case. And that may be a choice that you want to make is like, if you cannot do this, you cannot work for our team. Okay. That's, you know, it's, it's your business and it's your choice and you, you can absolutely do that. And where I see this come up a lot to your point, Andy, of If they're doing everything else great and it has to do with being late. I see it so much where people are like, well, I have a doctor or I have a technician and they're amazing and they're always like 15 or 20 minutes late or they're always 10 minutes late.

If you are, and this is where it gets dicey for the people who, our can, our process people and systems people and control people is like, well, if you're going to hold everybody else accountable to this rule, but you're going to let them slide because they're doing everything else right, then how is it actually A, fair, and B, a rule. And I think this is where you have to ask yourself that question as a leader, which is, have I done my part? Because if there is a really strong why to having that, it is important that the team all be here so that we can be on time for our clients. That's a super valid why. And if you have a team member that you cannot hold accountable to that, it doesn't matter if they're a licensed technician or a doctor.

If you, if there is a strong why and there's buy in from the entire team, if you don't hold them accountable, that's how you help as a leader create a toxic environment in your practice. And so the flip side of this is, would I as a leader choose to have fecal loops be my thing? Probably not, man. I'm going to be honest with you.

I'm going to let that one slide if they're doing everything else right. I'm going to try and find some middle ground. If it's something that the whole rest of the team agrees in, is bought in on, and there's a really strong compelling why. You absolutely have to, to work on that and deal with the person.

And it may mean if you actually have told them and you actually have walked through the process and you have helped them, you can say, I've done everything I can to help them understand the why, that's a, that's a slippery slope if you don't do something about it.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I agree. That's all I got.

Stephanie Goss: Whew, man! This one was a fun one. And look at that. It was our, it was our shortest episode, but yet we still managed to find lots to chat about.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, sure. Our shortest, shortest question. Not our shortest episode.

Stephanie Goss: Our shortest question. Our shortest question. All right. Have a great week, everybody.

Dr. Andy Roark: Thanks, everybody.

Stephanie Goss: And that's a wrap on another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Thanks for joining us and spending your week with us. If you enjoyed this week's episode, head over to wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. It's the best way to let us know that you love listening. We'll see you next time.