Outdated or Just Respectful? Navigating Job-Hopping and Text Resignations

Are traditional expectations around resignations and job stability becoming outdated? A practice owner shares their concerns about the increasing trend of employees resigning via email or text and the prevalence of job-hopping on resumes. How can we navigate these changing norms without feeling out of touch?

In this episode, Maria and Andy explore how to approach these issues with empathy and strategic thinking. They discuss practical steps for interviewing candidates with job-hopping histories, setting clear expectations during onboarding, and cultivating a workplace culture that encourages retention. Maria's deep understanding of leadership and her passion for helping others develop their skills make her the perfect guide for this conversation.

Maria Pirita, a Certified Veterinary Practice Manager, Elite Fear Free Certified Veterinary Professional, and former hospital administrator, joins the conversation with her wealth of experience in veterinary medicine and leadership. Maria has spent over a decade in the field and over 20 years honing her leadership skills, making her an expert in helping veterinary leaders adapt to evolving workplace dynamics. Her background in veterinary marketing, team building, and positive work culture provides invaluable insights for addressing these modern challenges. Let's get into this episode…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

Upcoming Events

🌟 Step Up Your Leadership Game at the Uncharted Team Leads Summit!

Mark your calendars for the Uncharted Team Leads Summit on September 18th! Dive into a day of dynamic workshops and insightful sessions tailored for veterinary team leads. This year’s summit features a standout lineup, including Dr. Andy Roark’s session on influential leadership techniques and Sarah Parsons’ workshop on injecting positivity and morale into the veterinary workplace. Learn the art of effective conflict mediation with Maria Pirita and transition from rule enforcer to empowering coach with Kelsey Beth Carpenter and Tyler Grogan. Don’t miss this opportunity to enhance your leadership skills, tackle common challenges, and lead your team to new heights. Join us to transform the way you lead and inspire!

🌟 Elevate your team's leadership capabilities! The Leadership Essentials Certificate, found here: https://unchartedvet.com/certificates/, provides 8 hours of targeted CE designed to empower veterinary leaders like you. This course equips your leadership team with the skills needed to run a high-functioning, united team. As part of the Uncharted membership, now is the perfect time to enhance your leadership prowess and propel your practice forward. If you're not a member, now's the time to join the community and get this Leadership Essentials Certificate included! Visit https://unchartedvet.com/uvc-membership/ to register and make a significant impact in your professional realm.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to discuss on the podcast? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

Upcoming events: unchartedvet.com/upcoming-events/

Episode Transcript

Dr. Andy Roark: Hey everybody, it's me, Dr. Andy Roark. I am your host and this is the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast. Guys, I got a great one for you today. We are talking about people job hopping. First of all, should we be concerned when people apply for jobs and they've had a bunch of jobs in the last couple of years?

And then also, when people quit by text. All of this is lumped together under the idea of, are social norms changing about how we leave jobs and how we should look at behaviors that used to be frowned upon? That's what we're talking about. It is me and the one and only Maria Parita, CVPM. Stephanie Goss is away.

Maria is amazing. If you have not heard from her before, you're gonna really love this episode. As I say in the episode, one of my favorite things about Maria is that she is so good at providing sample wording for how she would say things and she does that here. It's really just it's just great I love talking with her if you love maria make sure to see her at the Uncharted Team Lead Summit.

She is talking about, sorting out interpersonal conflict amongst the team. Head over uncharted vet. com We'll put a direct link in the show note, and with that let's get into this episode…

And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and the one and only Maria Parita CVPM. Hello, my friend. How are you?

Maria Pirita: Hello, Andy. I'm good. How are you doing?

Dr. Andy Roark: I'm doing great. I love when I get to work with you. Stephanie Goss is away, and so this is a wonderful opportunity for you and me to collaborate How have you been? How are things going?

Maria Pirita: It's going really good. I'm here in Florida, so as, as many people know, we have Hurricane Debbie that just came through which was really light actually. It was, it was actually kind of funny because I'm, I'm new to Florida, right? So I've only been a Floridian for a couple of years. And last, the first year that we moved in, like a month after we moved in, was Hurricane Ian.

And we were like, boarding up stuff. We were like putting sandbags out and like the hurricane came through we looked at all of our neighbors and we're like We're over prepared like by a lot and so this time we're kind of very chill And it wasn't it's like a very it wasn't even just a tropical storm around here I think by by me, but people were out walking the dog and I'm just like laughing it like this is so floor I went to a bridal shower like it's so So Florida, but it's just like at some point you realize like it's just a lot of rain.

So for us, we were very lucky that it's just a lot of rain. I don't know about other areas, but we did not overprepare this time. So I felt more like a true Floridian this time than before.

Dr. Andy Roark: you're, you're on your way like, like three more hurricanes and you're gonna be those people who have lawn chairs. And like, bathing suits and a cooler in front of your house when the hurricane rolls in. Like, that's, that's, you're gonna become Florida, that's how you become Florida people.

At first, you're like, we gotta prepare, we need to do the responsible thing. And then you're like, and it steadily steps down until, you know, you've got you've got you've got a boom box and some Coors Light and a four wheeler in 

Maria Pirita: I've heard that hurricane parties are a real thing. Like, that is a very real thing. Tyler Grogan even told me about it a little bit, too. She's a Floridian for a while. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, yeah. When I was in vet school, we went through this period. It was a crazy year. It was probably 2007, something like that. And we had three huge hurricanes hit Gainesville within like two weeks of each other. Like all within two weeks. And the house, like our house flooded. Like it was not a, it was not a fun experience.

Our house flooded. Power was out everywhere and there was nothing to do. And so, our friends just started having parties and, you know, we'd make our way over there and sit outside and, you know, drink some margaritas with battery powered music. And that was it. There was, there was, well, you know, and so, the, GRU was the, was the power company, and they were running around, I'm sure they were working hard.

But after about, Two weeks, we still didn't have power. And then down the road from my house, the sign appears and it was a huge sign. It was stuck out in the major roadway and it said, GRU, where are you? And it stayed there. And I found out a couple of weeks later, Mary Gardner, the founder of Lap of Love Pet Hospice was like “It was me.”

Maria Pirita: Stop! Oh, no! 

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. So it was so funny. She was like, do you remember that sign? I was like, well, of course I remember the sign was huge. 

Maria Pirita: Oh, that's amazing. She's like, that was me.

Dr. Andy Roark: That was me and again, that's when that's when I knew that Mary Gardner was a woman who gets things done

Maria Pirita: Yes, she does. Yes, she does. Because where, where was the electric company right after that?

Dr. Andy Roark: I said, yeah, I was like, I'm sure they felt pressure to get to our neighborhood It might have just been that it was two weeks and then it was time But fairly shortly after that they did show up.

I would tell you this as far as hurricane parties I do remember this too. Everyone was so bored out of their mind after two weeks without any power when they did come and fix the lines It was like lalapalooza. You know amphitheater seating. We all went out, there's kids there, we all went and just sat in lawn chairs and watched them fix the lines.

Not in like a disrespectful way, just in a like, we, we have not had any entertainment. And so we're going to come and sit and watch you, you know, put these lines back up. 

Maria Pirita: There had to have been cheers. Like, I would be cheering those people on, like, Yeah! 

Dr. Andy Roark: Whenever they put a line up and then like came down, we all cheered. And then they went back up because like, oh, I'm not done yet.

Maria Pirita: oh, no! 

Dr. Andy Roark: And then we'd cheer as they came down again. And he's like, no, no, no, I still got one, I got, I got another thing.

Maria Pirita: That's amazing.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh man, let's let's do let's do what we came to do here. Let's get into this We got a really good question for the mailbag. Do you want to lay it out for us?

Maria Pirita: Yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited to talk about this one specifically because I kind of feel a lot about this. I, I just like, I just noticed it in my, my own self, this is actually from the community. And so it's something that kind of sparked a really great conversation overall in the Uncharted community as a whole, but also in general, something that I thought would be great for us to talk about.

And so essentially this person has shown some frustration because they've been a practice owner for a long time and they noticed that like recently people are not almost putting in their two weeks notice in face to face anymore. She's noticing a lot of email, a lot of text messages, and she's like, honestly, it feels a little bit scary.

She's like afraid to check her email which is

Like totally understandable. Like somebody's gonna quit if I open my email. If I don't open it, no one's quitting. Which I totally felt as a practice manager at some point. Totally resonated. The other thing that she, she, the particular situation with this person was facing is that they also noticed that they're seeing a lot more job hopping on resumes, which I thought was really interesting.

Because she mentioned how this used to be a red flag when we were hiring people. Right. And that's what I remembered when we were talking, when we're reading this, I was like, yeah, I remember hiring people basically in 2009, 2010. And this was at pizza place, right? But it was seen as a red flag to have that many jobs and And so anyway, that part really resonated with me, and so she, her particular situation said, you know, She just recently hired somebody and she's almost nervous because this person had Three jobs in a matter of a couple of years and so she's like I want her to stay But I am nervous because what if she doesn't stay and she said she didn't address it during the interview Which she feels like she probably should have addressed it during the interview and moving forward and she said it just felt kind of awkward She's like I didn't want to be rude and straight up ask her, you know, about job hopping So she's left wondering Is she just being old fashioned?

Is this more realistic to expect now? You know, this kind of communication, whether it's the how to quit or the job hopping. Just wondering, is she like out of touch? And then also like, how can we address these things if we are changing norms in professionalism when it comes to whether it's just veterinary medicine or as a whole?

And so she's just hoping she said she'd really appreciate our insights on this. So I thought that was nice. So yeah that is. That is Chewy, actually saying hello.

Dr. Andy Roark: we're gonna let you weigh in

Maria Pirita: he's got some strong feelings about this himself, actually. 

Dr. Andy Roark: So we've got sort of two different animals here. So one is sort of quitting without notice or quitting by tax, and the other one is sort of job hopping. But they go together, at least in the mind of our person asking, in, under the umbrella of our, our norms changing around employment. And so I think that it's valid to take them, to take them together.

I think that's really interesting. I heard a story recently. This is not, it's not a funny story. It's funny on the outside. You know, it's like comedy is tragedy happening to other people. Is, is, is the saying. But it was like, there's this poor manager. And this person came up to them and said, Hey, I'm giving my two weeks notice.

And the manager said, Oh, I'm really sorry to hear that. And the woman says, Yeah. I'll, today will be my last day. And the manager said, I thought you were giving your two week notice. She said, I am. And the manager said, That usually means you're going to work two more weeks. And she said, No, I start my new job tomorrow.

And so it was, just funny to me that the person like they said the words i'm giving my two weeks notice but I don't think he actually thought about what those words mean I think two weeks notice is code for i'm quitting and sometimes it means i'm i'm quitting immediately And so it was just it was a real story and it just but it made me chuckle Okay, I'm gonna I want to sort of lay down two sort of different ideas that I have around around around the quitting lane.

Let's start with the let's start with the quitting for the for the for the for the Face to face resignation versus text, and so there's two different conflicting ideas, but I think they're both true. So the first one I'm going to say is in our society over the last couple of decades, I believe we have seen a pendulum swing towards individualism.

Meaning, everything in society is really about, what do you, Maria, like? What do you want? It down to the fact that, you know, I've got four people in my house and on any given night, we're probably all watching different television shows, you know, like we are all doing our own our own thing. It is very much, you know, when we travel, what is your personal preference?

So you can, I can get an Uber to come and get me and take me exactly where I want. You know, we don't do public transportation in the U. S. because everybody has a car so that you can go where you want to go and do what you want to do. I'm not trying to say that that's bad or anything. I really do think it's a pendulum swing between interconnectivity and individualism.

And I think that we've swung a lot towards individualism. And when we do that, we get over into a bit of a mindset of, what do I want to do? What's good for me? And I am leaving this job. And so, I'm going to prioritize myself and what, and what my needs are, and I'm just going to do that thing that makes sense for me.

It allows me to live my truth. It allows me to, you know, to do the thing that's emotionally important to me right now. And that's it. And again, I'm not trying to comment on that morality, but I do think we've kind of swung over in that, in that direction. Right? And so there's, there's sort of this, this general swing, I think, towards individualism and people sort of saying, What do I want to do?

How do I feel? Let's do that. The other side of it that I have to say, and I've thought a lot about this as far as, this goes into job hopping too, but, but as far as quitting, I think that some behaviors that made sense when we all worked for mom and pops, don't send tend to make sense in the age of sort of global corporations.

You know what I mean? I don't think that people feel the same. And I don't know if this is a corporate owned practice or not, but I just think societally speaking, when we went to work at the local store and the owner of the store was there working shoulder to shoulder with us. We felt bad about being like, I'm leaving immediately and I know you're going to be shorthanded, but I'm walking away.

Because you're kind of putting that on this person that you know who's hopefully a good person and a member of your community. I think also probably our, our reputation in smaller communities was a bigger deal because, you know, when everybody knew each other, your, you know, your reputation really mattered a bit.

I think that people maybe feel a little bit different on going to Global Corp that has 600, 000 employees and being like, Hey, I'm, I'm taking off. You're going to have to pull someone from one of your other locations. And again, that, and the manager's like, they're, they're, you know, they're, they're paid by, they're paid by the hour.

And again, I'm not talking about veterinary practices specifically here. I'm just talking about the general way that we work in society today. And so anyway, I think that that whole, two weeks notice face to face. Thank you for the opportunity. I wonder if as business has changed, if people's feelings about, you know, having those conversations have changed.

So I kind of, I kind of look at that a little bit in headspace for the, for the face to face resignation part.

Maria Pirita: Yeah, totally. I think, too, another thing that I think is a reality that we need to face is that communication in general has been changing for a long time. We can't stop the fact that, like, There has been, for a while, an increase in using text messages and email, and there is like, we grew up, a lot of us, using text message and email.

So, it doesn't, to some people, they won't understand what the purpose is of face to face versus text and email, because at the end of the day, to them, it's the same thing. And so, a lot of this, too, is like, what we learned in general. So, for myself, I didn't learn until I was well in the workflow, workforce, that I had to quit in writing, right?

But it was something that somebody, at some point, did have to teach me. So I didn't know that and then I didn't understand the big why behind it until I was a manager and having to have that in writing. Then I was like, oh, this makes sense of why, why managers need in writing. So unless we're actually talking about why it's important to quit face to face or like why we want to have those things, you know, it's, it's just not something that everybody is going to know.

And, and I think a lot of it is just communication in general has changed. And so I think part of me for Headspace is like really trying to figure out from this perspective, why does it bother you if it is email versus face to face? And then that'll, that'll help guide you into like why you want to change it.

You know?

Dr. Andy Roark: No, I, I think you're, I think you're spot on. I, I really like that. I think that that's a really good, healthy way to look at it. I think, I think just in general, we talk about this a lot, assuming good intent on the part of others is just a happier, healthier way to live your life. It helps you react a more, I don't know, in a more productive way and to just feel better.

I think that, I think that not reading too much into it, I think is really important. I like your idea of. Why is this important to you? I, I think that that's good, I think that's good to sit and, and, and sit with a little bit and say is it, is it a feeling of respect? Do you feel disrespected? If so, why do you feel that way?

And when Maria says, you know, people are much more comfortable with text now, I think that's a really great point. Perhaps I shouldn't feel this way. You know, maybe I can solve that problem there. Is it about the, the timeliness of resigning? I think, I think that that's very valid too. If somebody gives you no notice and they're just gone, that's really hard.

At, at some point, our strategy might be acceptance. I think what I would say is from a headspace standpoint is, okay, if this is a thing that happens, and if there seems to be shifting norms, or I've had multiple people over the, say, the years, just say, hey, I'm out, I'm gone in a week, I'm gone in three days, or I'm gone in two weeks, and then it just doesn't work, and they're gone in three days.

I have seen that a lot. Again, again, even when people say they'll give you two weeks, often they just, you don't want those two weeks. They're just done. And so I think, I think that kind of acceptance can be really healthy. I think from a Headspace standpoint, knowing that that's a possibility with your staff and just go ahead and being smart to say, all right, understand that people could leave at any moment.

They could be raptured away. They could walk out in front of a bus, like who knows what's going to happen. Just general good hygiene and maintenance around, people could disappear at any moment, including myself. Is our, is our business set up to try to flex and accommodate that? And of course, there's always going to be times it's more convenient for someone to go, and times it's less convenient to go.

Spoiler alert, they're going to go when it's not convenient. It always happens that way. You can hope for it. It's probably going to happen. I just think, I think the more that you can, you know, put some good practices into place, and we'll talk about what that looks like, so that it's not so disruptive when people quit abruptly.

We're just You can't control other people, like we just, we can't. And, and if my business depends on people acting in an exemplary fashion, it's not much of a business. Like we're, we're already in trouble.

Maria Pirita: Yeah, I couldn't agree more there. I think you bring up a really valid point too of like, If somebody doesn't want to finish off their two weeks like you really don't want them there

Anyway, and so that's that's always a relief and in in its sense in general and getting into that mindset a hundred percent is super super valuable

Dr. Andy Roark: No, I think, I think you're spot on and I would say even further, you know, you talked about sort of putting things in writing too. I'll tell you this. I don't think that having stuff in writing matters at all. I mean, if you can make people sign a contract, what are you going to do if they, if their contract says they're going to work for two weeks and they're like, I'm out.

Are you going to sue them? You're going to go get a lawyer for 400 an hour to try to sue them. What do you think you're going to get? Do you going to force them to work at your practice? That's going to go really well. Is that what you want? And it's, it's and again, I think, I'm not saying contracts are unimportant, don't, don't get me wrong, guys. Know that when push comes to shove, they're really only worth what the two people signing them are worth.

Like that, that's, that's what they are. And so even if you have, you can button this up any way you want. In my experience, in my opinion, people are going to do what they want to do, and I, you just can't hold them down, and I think every time I've seen people try, it has gone badly. And so, just being ready to roll with it as gracefully as possible, I think that's, I think that's where we are.

I think it makes some people really mad, but I do think you have to, this is why we talk about Headspace, I do think you have to shift your perspective a little bit and say, look, it's going to happen.

Maria Pirita: yeah

Dr. Andy Roark: try not to take it super personally, try to just roll with it but it, it is, it is going to happen.

Try to assume good intent about people, it's, it's, people are changing in how they communicate, there's some cultural differences. There's, the person who said, I'm giving my two weeks notice, I start my new job tomorrow, like that to me, that was a classic example of someone who, the idea of two weeks hadn't really, Sunk in with them, and it's, you know, I, I don't think you're gonna make that person do anything, and so acceptance here is often, is often the key.

Maria Pirita: totally. I will say that for me as a manager, the purpose of the in writing is only for me to be able to show unemployment later on that this person actually

quit. Because I don't, I don't want them to like later on say, oh they let me go and therefore I have to pay unemployment for this person who chose to go.

So that is usually the purpose for me as a manager to get that in writing. We just always want to make sure we have that in, for, for that, but beyond that, the other thing that I'll mention too is something that I see a lot on social media, and this is a common post that I think a lot of people see, is the fact that, like, companies don't give you a two weeks notice when they fire you and so that is kind of, like, And I'm not saying that that is the right mentality to have because I, for me, and this is kind of going into action steps, but what you can do for me, it was always setting the expectation that like, if I'm going to let you go, it's never going to be a surprise.

So I hope that you can extend that same courtesy to me that if you're leaving, it's not going to be a surprise. And I live by that because I'm all about making sure it's not a surprise if I'm going to let somebody go. However, that is, some of the mentality that we kind of see on social media, and so sometimes the messaging that is out there, and people will tell themselves whatever they want to tell themselves to justify whatever they're doing.

At the end of the day, it's like you said, it does not matter, and it does not help us at all to try and figure out why they're doing it, or to try and get angry about it, just know that as a manager, as a leader, This is gonna happen, and so, there are things we can do preventatively for that, but I think before we get into those action steps, we should probably address the job hopping headspace.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, but, well, I think, I think you're already right into it. I, I really agree with the point about the pushback that I've seen on social media of, they don't give me two weeks when they, when they let me go. I, I do, this, I had this down in Headspace for job hopping, I think the world has changed a lot. I, I really think, I think in the past.

There was a healthier interaction between workers and employers where, again, I think it comes down to in the past, people, they seem to know each other better and we didn't feel like we were a cog in a much bigger machine. I think that a lot of people have had their loyalty sort of taken advantage of.

You know, again, it used to be people, people used to work for companies and they would get pensions and all that stuff has all gone away. And I'm not trying to point fingers and say, Oh, You know, capitalism is bad and corporations are bad, but I do think that things have changed and people have been mistreated by other businesses that they have worked for and I think workers as a group have sort of had their norms kind of shifted.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect employees to be ultra loyal to us and then have us as business owners expect to have them be just replaceable and we, you know, and we, we do layoffs when, when we need that you know, to, to protect our, to protect our business. And again, I, again, I'm really, I probably sound like I'm trying to vilify businesses here, but I'm really not.

I just think that there's been enough of that in the world that a lot of people have internalized that as, that's what a healthy relationship looks like is, I really don't have any loyalty to you, I really don't expect you to have any loyalty to me. I think that's really sad, but I also think that That not having those thoughts or questioning is my loyalty a one way street here or is this being reciprocated?

I think you're a bit naive if you don't have those thoughts. I always hope, and again this is a hope, and this is where I get my feelings hurt. I always hope that I can treat my employees well enough that if they were going to leave, they would still, if they were going to leave and they need to leave, Then, then I expect them to leave.

And you know, and I want what's best for them. I hope that they would have a thought of, how do I leave in a way that doesn't put Andy in the worst position possible? Is there anything I can do to help him as I go? Like, that's what I, I try to treat people in a way that that would be valuable. Again, people, situations and circumstances change at the end of a relationship.

Things always get awkward or rocky. They just, they just kind of do, you know, and so I try not to take it personally, but I think philosophically and from a headspace, I try to treat people in a way that they would feel like I cared about them enough that they would try to care about me on their way out.

But again, you can't, you can't hold yourself to that. You can't. You can't beat yourself up if, if it doesn't go that way. So anyway, but I think your, I think your idea of they wouldn't do it for me, so I'm not gonna do it for them. I hate that that's the mentality that people have. I, I try, I hold myself to a higher standard than that.

But, again, I can't, I, I've found that it's much easier to not hold other people to the same standard that I hold myself. Mm

Maria Pirita: totally. And I think you're so right in, in the fact that like, not to blame or point fingers, but in a way I think we did kind of create this system that we're now seeing. So I will agree that there are extraneous circumstances that I think have led to this, and so some of the job hopping that we'll see is because of COVID or recession, layoffs, that kind of thing.

Like, those are all real things that happened within the last couple of years, and so that's partially to blame. But I do think something that needs to be noted is that we are somewhat responsible for the system only in the sense of the fact that if we look at statistics for more recently, it is the job hoppers that have gotten the larger changes in their salary because they're getting experience somewhere for like a year and a half and now they're more valuable somewhere else. So rather than waiting at year and a half somewhere for a dollar raise They're getting a two dollar raise just by job hopping and instead and so then they're getting experience now at this place and now they're getting a larger raise by job hopping versus than staying in their in their job.

And so like it is now unfortunately this reality that we're seeing I think you're spot on it's partially because of the relationship piece of like where are the benefits and what are the things that we're getting, you know, in this mutual relationship is the loyalty the same way. And so at the end of the day, the loyalty is not going to seem like a two way street.

If they're going to get a bigger pay by moving from job to job versus staying at the, at the same positions over and over again, I think there's also that to, to, that has to be said is that I do think times are changing from extraneous circumstances of society and in the economy. I also think that there is now kind of the system that back in the day, loyalty was a lot more rewarded in different ways, whether it was pensions, whether it was this way that now it's kind of like, well, if you think about the individual themselves.

They actually get more rewards by job 

Dr. Andy Roark: hopping. 

Oh, I love that you said, I love that you put that out. I think that's so smart and it's so empathetic to say, well, why could this be happening in a way that makes sense? And yet, I don't think we can fault people for saying, well, you know, this was an opportunity or I saw this other opportunity. I think it's really smart to, to recognize that that may be what's motivating people.

I think my, my top thing for, for Headspace on the job hopping is assume good intent. Reserve judgment without facts. You know, we look and we see these changes. You're right. You could call out on the pandemic, things like that. You know, there's, there's just things that that happened to people and we really don't know what's going on with anybody.

So I would say, you know, assume, assume good intent. Try it. Try not to jump to conclusions. I think one of my big I use this a lot. I think about employment relationships, like relationships, just metaphorically. It really helps me. And I don't want people to get mad about this. Don't get mad. Please don't get mad. But hear what I'm so angry already. 

Dr. Andy Roark: You haven't even heard it yet. Just 

Maria Pirita: So mad. 

Dr. Andy Roark: wait. If you look at someone's behavior, and the, they have, been job hopping. To me, that's kind of like looking at somebody that I'm thinking about dating and saying, well, this person has a habit of dating people for two or three weeks, and then that relationship ends, and then they date somebody else, and they date somebody else.

It's not bad. I'm not saying that's bad. I'm not casting a spurs. I'm not being, oh, well this person clearly can't have a relationship. I don't, I don't think that that's a, I don't think that's a fair way to look at that, but I also think you would be naive to go into a relationship, date this person who has consistently dated people for two weeks and then the relationship has ended, and not think, well, you know, this, that could be how this goes.

Let's, let's not, let's not be naive here. I'm also saying, I'm not saying, don't date this person. If you know, if things look good and you go, okay, well, you know, this is, this makes sense. Let's try this out again. It's a lot of it is just not judging, but also not going in with blinders on and go, okay, well, let's see how this goes.

And so from a headspace standpoint, I think I look at it a lot like that, you know? 

Maria Pirita: I love, love, love that you said that because I genuinely put in here that, so I put in here in my notes for this person that's kind of just recently hired, you know, this individual that they're kind of like, well, I'm kind of nervous because she had was job hopping tendencies. And so like, I don't know if that's, if you know, that's going to happen here.

One of the things, the things that I put in here is like avoid writing this person off, avoid giving yourself anxiety, don't look for reasons to let this person go, don't avoid training growth opportunities or anything like that. But at the same time, recognize that I called it Schrodinger's clinic because you live in both scenarios.

There is a possibility that this person could quit on you pretty soon. There's also a possibility that this person might have not had great leadership that talked to her about where she was going and things like that. And until you actually have it, and you kinda live in both scenarios. So I would absolutely be investing into retention with this person having, you know, and that's kind of getting into action steps.

But I would also be looking at active recruiting and hiring, because that's just also part of the scenario we live in today in VetMed, is that we are not passively recruiting anymore. We're actively recruiting. And so right now you kind of live in this Schrodinger clinic in which both realities could be very true.

And you should prepare for both realities in general.

Dr. Andy Roark: No, I, I think you're right. One of my big pieces of advice that I give to leaders, and this is just lessons I learned the hard way, I truly believe, Maria, that you should not do anything for your employees based on some idea you have about what they're going to do for you in the future. Like I just I think that that's I think that that's true I think you should do for them today because you think this is the right thing to do today. You should invest in people not because you believe that they're going to stick around for years because you did this for them.

I think that's an unhealthy way to look at it I think you're gonna be disappointed You should invest in them because you have chosen to have a clinic that invests in its patients people and you draw satisfaction today from making the investment and living your values and making the workplace that you want to make.

If someone goes to the training and they leave, I don't, I don't think that you should let that wreck you. I think it would, it will, it's going to happen.

Maria Pirita: Yep.

Dr. Andy Roark: should not be something that you say, I was a fool. I did this and I thought this person would stay on forever. And again, I would say that to, I'd say that to, to, to other people as well.

If you're an employee. And you think that by sacrificing yourself and sacrificing yourself, you're going to get appreciated and you're going to get promoted or paid better in the future. I would encourage you not to do that. I've just, I've found that it just, it doesn't, it doesn't work. If you want to sacrifice yourself because you find meaning and fulfillment and purpose in that, then you should do it.

If you want to sacrifice yourself because you enjoy your work, and sometimes we work hard, then then do it. If you want to sacrifice because you want to help the rest of the team and if you peace out at the end of this shift, they're going to be really shorthanded and you really don't have anywhere to go, then, then do it.

But don't be resentful later on if it doesn't turn into something. Just do it today based on, on what's in front of you and be happy about what was done. And so the same, the same thing is true here with the with the job hopping. I don't, Don't invest into your people because you think that they're going to behave in a certain way in the future.

Invest in them because you think it's the right thing to do. And that brings me sort of the end of the headspace for me, and I think you really kind of brought this around very nicely, is the ultimate outcome in headspace for me is to recognize that I cannot control what other people do, that I'm going to assume the best about people, and I am going to try to set myself up so that my business and myself are as taken care of as possible regardless of what people do.

So if they stay, great. If they don't stay, that's a bummer. We are equipped for this. We have not put ourselves in a position where we're going to be absolutely devastated. I know that's really hard when it's hard to hire. I know that's really hard if you're already shorthanded. It's not fun. All you can do is your best, knowing that there are a lot of things that are outside of your control.

You wanna take a break and then we'll get into action steps?

Maria Pirita: Yeah, it Hey guys just want to jump in real quick. Are you a lead technician? Are you lead CSR or you lead kennel staff or kennel tech guys? The uncharted team leads summit is upon us and registration is open Team leads. Summit is on September. The 18th is a virtual events. 

You don't have to travel to do it. It's a one day program guys. It's for anybody who is a team lead guys, I'm going to be speaking this year. I am doing my Jedi mind trick, how to get doctors to do what you want. Sarah Parsons is going to be here talking about boosting morale. The one and only Maria preta is going to be doing conflict management, mastering mediation. 

That's when you're stuck in between two of your people say that you're the lead tech and you've got. Two technicians aren't getting along and you have to mediate this conversation and get them working together. That's what Maria is going to be doing Tyler Grogan and vet tech, Kelsey, or Kelsey, Beth carpenter are going to be doing, becoming the coach, not the referee. 

As you can tell, this is absolutely jam packed with workshops and sessions that are going to be fantastic for our team leads. Guys. This is generally the biggest virtual event that we run an unchartered is going to be popular. Go ahead, bust on over to uncharted vet.com. I'll put a direct link down in the show notes, get registered and be there. 

It is going to be a fantastic time. Registration is now open. Remember the summit is on September the 18th. Let's get back into this episode. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Alright, let's do some action steps. Why don't you, what have you got to start us off with?

Maria Pirita: Okay. So the first one that I had here in general. was to really look at your hiring protocol. The reason why was because I think, I think they, this person said it in their original post of I didn't ask this question at the time of the interview because it felt awkward for me to ask this question about, about this job hopper when it comes to the job hopper in general.

And so, I think for me would be to really look at my hiring protocol for two reasons. One, it sounds like, you know, you might be in general nervous about this person leaving and so for me sometimes I like, I'm a big advocate for active like recruiting all the time because you never know when your next great person is going to be and this is a great time to look at your hiring protocol.

I think when it comes to that specific scenario, some of the questions that I kind of use during the interview when I see somebody that's like a job hopper, which I think sometimes that's the awkwardness of like, how do you is like questions like what prompted you to make a move from this position to that position you're currently in, right?

To try and gather some of that information, what would you say is the main reason you left, you know, your last three clinics? And the reason why is because I'm looking for, I'm looking to really find out, why this person has the history that they do. So I talked to you a little bit about how I was a manager at a pizza place once.

It was a college town. And so oftentimes you had job hoppers on that on those applications. And so really talking at some, it was as simple as like I went to school. And so I work here during the summer and I work here during the winter. And so I think when you are in certain areas, we have to also recognize that.

So like if we are in a school area where people are constantly moving and that means that they're, you know, there's some job hopping is that, but the only way you're going to find out about a candidate during the interview of why the reasons are is to really ask about it. And the same thing I think goes for when you're addressing, addressing it in the hiring piece.

So you can absolutely kind of. address the elephant and ask for a commitment and I'm not saying like get it in writing or and Have this contract because I think like you said earlier There's no way that you're gonna be able to hold somebody accountable, but it's totally okay to ask and say hey You know, you're one of my top candidates looking for this position I'm a little concerned about investing six to twelve months of training just given the fact that you had, you know, two years So I'm really looking for somebody who's going to make a commitment to stay here for, you know, two to three years.

Is that something that you'd be willing to do? Like, tell me a little bit about that. You know, if we hired you, could you make that happen? Do you think that's a commitment that you can make happen? And so I'm not really asking for it in writing. I'm not asking for a contract, but I am setting the expectation with this person during the hiring interview of, hey, you know, I'm going to hire you.

I plan on investing in you, and I want you to stick around for a certain amount of time. Would, is that something that you would do? Because the truth is, this person could be somebody who values, you know, the change. Like, what if this person genuinely just loves you? The change every couple of years and they tell you right then and there, you know, I don't think I can do that maybe they're you know in the middle of moving again all of these different reasons why they couldn't but like just asking and making sure because what I'm looking for is setting the expectation and getting that commitment even if it is just Verbally not saying that's gonna work 100 percent of the time because there are people that can say yes I can make that commitment and then life happens like we talked about The people getting raptured and all of these different things that could happen, you know, not to say that it's it But for me it is about setting expectations and I think in your hiring protocol is the first place where you can set that expectation

Dr. Andy Roark: You know, one of the things I love about working with you is you are so good at demonstrating language of how you ask the question and how you say these things, and I just, I think you're so spot on. I, same thing for me. I said, the top of my list for action steps was number one is, is get curious and, and, and ask the questions.

I really do think that that's the right way the right way to approach it. I don't know if it's a cultural thing in that I was raised in the South, so I grew up in North Carolina. Yeah. And manners are very important. And there were, there were questions that you just didn't ask people. And you always wanted to be kind of polite And, 

Maria Pirita: you are very polite

Dr. Andy Roark: And it's, I have learned as I've gotten older, people are actually much more open to questions, direct questions than, than I kind of thought they were. I think how you phrase it is really, really important. I thought you did that really, really well. I think the way that I would probably approach it.

Yes, I loved your especially the part about commitment and say, Hey, we're looking for someone. Can you commit to that? Ah, Maria, such a such a great approach. I think for me, my thoughts would be, I try to get curious about these past jobs and say, Tell me about what did you like about this job? What did you not like about this job?

And hopefully they're going to tell me a story that's kind of consistent. I would love if they said, I really love this job. But then I, you know, then I went back to school. And then when I got out, I felt like it was time to do something different. Or I didn't see opportunities to for development in any of these jobs.

I was like, okay, or they said I wanted to develop, but then I didn't get a chance to move up. And I'm like, you were there six months. And then at least I know kind of where their heads at and I can, I can take with that and do with it as, as I will. But, but I really think a lot of times they're not awkward ways to ask about the previous jobs that maybe aren't, you seem to be job hopping.

Can you convince me that it's not true? I think that there's other ways to sort of dig into it. I think you're spot on My next one is on board strategically and I think you already started to get into this which is ask him about the commitment and say You know, we're looking at 6 to 12 months of training to bring somebody on Can can you can you commit to this i'm going to go back to my romantic relationship metaphor and sort of say I don't want to get married on the first date.

I'm up to bringing this person on. Let's try this out. Let's try to onboard things like that. I'm not going to bring them in and immediately enroll them in. You know, in, in college and pick up tuition, the tuition bill, like that's not, that's not a, it's not a first week kind of thing. Let's see how, let's see how this goes, but let's bring in and let's start, let's do some phase training where if they bounce after a week, and a lot of people will, a lot of people come in, it may be their first vet job.

They're like, I did not know it was like this, and I'm going to be out of here. I think there's some value to just letting people get their feet wet and starting to give them the basics and bring them along and see what their aptitudes are and see what their commitment level is. And again, I'm not trying to stall people out.

But you can be smart in how you invest into people. Just like you would in a relationship. I'm not giving you the keys to my apartment on the, on the first night and introducing you to my parents. It's, it's, it's going to take a while before we go down that road and make that investment. So anyway, I think, I think just being smart is, is key.

Maria Pirita: I love that so much. I think that is so smart, especially that onboarding piece is, it's so crucial to like how we are gonna set this relationship, right? Like, and go back to the dating metaphor, a lot of times the first dates is where we're getting to know each other, like what is our favorite colors, how to, but we're also observing And so I think that that's where we kind of let a lot of expectations go.

So I joke around that like, on my first date with my husband, I was like, two minutes late, five minutes late, or something like that. And he was like, yeah, she's gonna be late every time. And I'm just like, yeah, I am gonna be, it's fine. And so, A hundred percent to this day, like, I am the one in the relationship that is usually running late.

And so, and he keeps me on time, which is a great partnership. But at the end of the day, that is kind of what we are seeing in those first couple of weeks. And so for me, one of the action steps was also live and breathe your handbook, right? And so Stephanie Goss, you know, making it into the podcast, like, what does your handbook say?

But But at the end of the day that onboarding piece is when your handbook first gets put out there and you can 100 percent set the expectation there about, you know, when it is time to leave and like what the company expects for quitting. And so all companies are not the same. You know, like not every company, two weeks is enough time.

You can absolutely put your expectations on. It doesn't mean that they're going to follow it, but it does help to set the expectation like this is what we all do. And then also talking about it regularly in the sense of like. I shared the story about how, you know, I, I made it very well on my team that like, It's never going to be a surprise if you get let go from me.

Like, we are going to talk about it well in advance. And so I asked for that same courtesy. We talked about that. I also talked to them about, like, I don't fire people. Technically they fire themselves because I give them the resources that they need. And so, like, all of those things are always things that we talked about.

We talked about our handbook regularly. You know, whether it was about that, whether it was the, you know, holidays, the bonuses, the breaks, however all of those things work, but the truth is if you're just giving your people a handbook and being like, read this by the end of the day today, and then having them sign a piece of paper, I'm telling you most of those people are not reading the handbook.

They're just signing the piece of paper and saying that they read the handbook. So. A look at your onboarding piece. Are you giving people the time that they need to go through the main pieces of your handbook? Some managers, they will give them time to read it. And then afterwards they just pinpoint those important pieces towards that handbook of like, what is acceptable?

What is not acceptable? And they just go through those important pieces. Some. You know, like I said some, I believe we should be talking about our handbook regularly. Not saying that you're talking about quitting regularly, because it's gonna get, that'll be a little too much. But it is important to live and breathe your handbook and know, and give people those expectations when it comes to quitting or giving notice and things like

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I think you're, I think you're right on with this. I think we sort of evolved the conversation now from the hiring part into the, into the managing of people part. And so I think I would pull from that area of our playbook a lot is that, you know, our writer has made the commitment to this person and they're nervous. You're in it now, and again, it 

Maria Pirita: Yeah. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Other than the change in resumes, which we didn't really ask about, you know, we decided to hire this person, and now we're in it. And so just lean into the things that we would do to be a good employer and to get the most out of the people who work for us, right? So just start off trying to understand what motivates this person, what do they value, what makes them feel fulfilled, how do they feel appreciated, and just start to try to Get those things.

And a lot of times, you know, maybe this person was engaged in their previous jobs. Maybe they weren't. Maybe they were managed well. Maybe they weren't. Maybe they had opportunities. Maybe they didn't. I can't control any of that. All I can say now is let's just start with a clean slate. What does this person care about?

What are they motivated by? What gets them excited? What what are their aptitudes? What are they good at? And let's just go ahead and start leaning into that. Let's try to help them have a good workplace experience like we do with all of our people. Let's lean into positive reinforcement training.

Let's start celebrating them patting on the back, you know, celebrating the things they do well, as opposed to being silent until they mess up. Just all those things that we want to see that are good employee motivators and keep people engaged. Just just lean into that. Give them the opportunity to have a healthy workplace culture to be a part of.

And this is the part that you and I take ownership of, right, is to say, I can't make this person stay. I can. My power here is I can do everything I can to try to help us have a good culture in the practice, and to protect that culture in the practice. And really, Not focusing on the individuals, but focusing on the team and the workplace culture and how we communicate and what it's like to be in this building.

That is the most powerful control that I have. And again, people are going to leave because they're going to leave. Really, all I can do the best is to try to find balance for everybody so that everybody gets taken care of as well as possible. And in a way that is balanced between the doctors, the staff, the patients, the clients, you know, the ownership management.

Things like that. And so just, just lean into that and try to try to make it a healthy workplace.

Maria Pirita: I love that so much because absolutely, in my notes I had work on your retention strategy. So I believe that we should always work on our retention strategy in general because it's what's good for the business. We know that it costs us way more to hire somebody than it is to keep them, right? So we should try to always have our finger or our eyes on retention in general.

And some of those action steps in there Go in line with what you just said. I had one on ones being a big one in here of like having regular discussions with this person to talk about the future, like what, what, what motivates this person? Like you just said, you know, all of those things. I had engagement surveys as also a great action step.

Like if you don't already have something like that to really try and figure out like where people are, are sitting. Another action step for like your retention strategy in general that I think we forget about is there are retention stats that we can kind of look at for our practice. And this is really good for those practice managers that are really into numbers.

But in general, there are turnover calculators, so you can actually pump and, and I can link it in the show notes, but there are some where you can just pump in your numbers for your own clinic and get your turnover rate, and then try to improve that number. There is also like. Callouts, we've had one of our very good friend, Jen Galvin, talks a lot about how she, you know, measures callouts because if there's a lot of it, that might be a sign of people being burnt out or being tired.

So there are some stats that you can kind of use to kind of track retention in general. And then the last thing I had on, on your retention strategy piece is to really ask the team for help in general. Like, Ask them like what helps them stay on board? How, what would they like to see? What kind of, A lot of times, you know, we want to do more for our teams and we're like, I'm gonna add this benefit and I'm gonna add this benefit and they're gonna love it.

And then managers get super shocked when they don't love it. And the reason is because maybe that wasn't as important of a benefit for them. You know, because they already have that somewhere else. And so sometimes we can involve our teams in the retention strategy in general. and I think that that's kind of really getting their, their ideas and like, what, what would you like to see here?

What would you like for us to invest in you in general? It's can, it can be very, very powerful. And then the last thing about retention strategy, if this person doesn't already do exit interviews, you know, you, they mentioned like, Being a little scared of the email piece. If you really do want like some more face to face time for people that are quitting, exit interviews are an excellent place to kind of really find out like.

You know what was going on with that person I think exit interviews are really good only if you have built that relationship ahead of time though with like honest You know transparency one on ones all of those things There are a lot of managers that say that they feel like they don't get as much benefit from there an exit interview because people aren't As honest and so you are gonna get that some people are not gonna be as honest during exit interviews And some people are gonna be honest I think a lot of that is dependent on all of the steps you took prior to that in your retention strategy how often you talked about future steps, you know, how often you had one on ones and engagement service surveys and things like that.

And the last thing that I'll say about this is don't be afraid to talk about where they're going to move on to. I think for all, so many of us, we focus on our like, oh, you're just going to work here forever. And I don't even want to talk about you leaving one day because you're going to work here forever.

And that's not that realistic actually. And so if anything, having a conversation about like, hey, Where would you like to be? And knowing like, oh, this person's really motivated by specialty, so let's set her up to go to specialty because at the end of the day, even if this person that you just hired is a job hopper and is leaving in two years, they're gonna share their experience, how their experience was at your clinic, with other people.

And so the best thing that you can do is make those two years Extremely, you know beneficial for them just from a regular management perspective of trying to do the right thing But also knowing that like it will have its own benefits, even if it is. Oh, hey, I worked at this one clinic It's right by you.

You should work there too because they really work on their people for a b c d, you know Um and things like that. So I would I would try and any of those. In my retention strategy

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, you use the term retention strategy and it always makes me laugh. Because it's such corporate lingo. You know what 

Maria Pirita: I know 

Dr. Andy Roark: it's just, it's how you treat people. It's how you, it's, you know what I 

Maria Pirita: It is. 

Dr. Andy Roark: run your business. Well, you know, part of our retention strategy is regular, you know, one on ones and feedback.

And I'm like, that's just, I never think of that as retention strategy. I'm like, that's just how you get things done is, you meet with people and you talk to them about how things are going and you're transparent. But, but it's true. It's, everything you say is true. It's just funny for me to tag it. I don't even think about retention strategy. I think about, I think about workplace culture. I'm like, all of that to 

Maria Pirita: A hundred percent.

Dr. Andy Roark: workplace culture. And if you build a great culture, then your retention strategy is, your retention strategy should always be, we're going to make an awesome place to work. As good as it can possibly be to work here, that's how good we want to make it.

And if you do that, your intention strategy is taken care of. And so I think that that's, I think that that's true. I think I think all this is good. I think basically run, run the business that you feel good about, that you want to run. Take good care of your people overall. Build a good culture. And hopefully you will be able to keep them.

I think we talked a little bit about exit interviews. I think that may be another episode at some point. We should just talk about it. There's a lot of caveats. I think they're worth doing. I don't personally put a lot of stock in them just because I've seen so many different ways that they've, they've been sort of disappointing to me in my career.

There are some people who, who say some things that are valuable, but I honestly, I think for most of the value of got out of exit interviews, Maria, It's been kind of like what you said before about I don't want people to know if their job is going to end because we've had this open dialogue.

I feel like a lot of people are really good at giving an open dialogue when they're not happy. And so it's, to me, I just, maybe it's different in bigger organizations. I'm rarely surprised. If someone is unhappy and they come and they say I'm leaving there are some people I guess who would show up and say I'm Unhappy and I'm like, why didn't you tell me but I think for the most part we kind of know that people aren't happy It's also there's a lot of people who are smart and that they know that their reputation matters and that you never know What twists and turns will be in the road?

And so they want to make sure that doors are open for them and they're not going to upset anybody So there's limited I think used to the exit interviews as opposed to what people would like for us to believe. Anyway, that's it. Remember that you can't control other people and you can only manage what they give to you.

You're in this now. You've hired this person. Just treat them well. Bring them along like you would another employee. Focus on making your practice great. On treating all of your employees the same. You know what I mean? As far as making sure everybody's got, got good opportunities. Communicate. Take feedback.

Make your people feel heard. Overall, it's gonna, it's gonna work out as well as it possibly can. Make sure that you're never dependent and reliant on one person. You should not have a business that is dependent on Karen showing up every day. And if she doesn't, we're all screwed.

Maria Pirita: One last thing that I'll say is that The original writer said that they sometimes are afraid to check their email because they're like, I don't know what's gonna happen in there next you could always try to make sure your email has other things in there So it's not always just people quitting and so that's what I would do in that scenario Is that try to encourage email use so that it's a lot more positive and so that hopefully you're getting positive news in your email also a lot of times my email was like You know, those good, feel goods from clients that were reviews because they would get forwarded to me automatically. Do what you need to do, but don't be afraid of your email. It is, it is a good one. 

Dr. Andy Roark: I mean, if they're gonna quit, they're gonna quit. It's not, it's not about your, it's not about your email, but I do get, but sometimes I, I take this as a, as a metaphorical point. And just that, boy, it feels like when it rains, it pours. You know what I mean? I'm like, there have been times when every time I've opened my email, something terrible was inside, and it's gone on for a month, and I don't know why it happens.

Yeah, I, I think, I think that not, not checking your email is not gonna, not gonna make it go away. But anyway, I hope things turn around.

Maria Pirita: Yeah, I'm excited. This was fun,

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's all I got. Anything else from you?

Maria Pirita: No, I think that's it. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, guys, thanks for tuning in, everybody. Thanks for being here. Maria, I'll talk to you guys soon.

Maria Pirita: Bye everyone!

Dr. Andy Roark: and that's what I got for you guys Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for hanging out. Thanks to Maria Perita for being here Remember if you are a team lead at your practice or you know a team lead at a practice Is send them the link for the uncharted team lead summit Remember it is a virtual event is a one day event all about being a team lead It is on september the 18th details at unchartedvet.com. Direct link in the show notes. I hope to see some of you guys there. Take it easy everybody. I'll talk to you later