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Sep 07 2022

Practice Manager Seeks Fun Veterinarian for Work Marriage

This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…

Practice manager and owner Jenn Galvin joins Dr. Andy Roark to tackle a tough question from the mailbag. If you're a practice manager who wants to find a new veterinarian business partner, where do you even start? In this episode, Jenn and Andy talk about setting expectations, maintaining relationships throughout the current hospital, growing and using your personal network, and achieving cultural alignment with someone you just met. This episode has all the drama of a reality dating show (not really, but we talk a lot about how business partnership is a lot like life partnership)! Let's get into it!

Uncharted Veterinary Podcast · UVP – 194 – Practice Manager Seeks Fun Veterinarian For Work Marriage

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

About Our Guest

Jenn Galvin is a spreadsheet-loving Veterinary Practice Manager with over 20 years of experience in the field. Growing her hospital and helping her team succeed through hard work, positive leadership, and humor is what gets Jenn up in the morning. She's an introverted “inventory nerd” that loves bratty beagles, dungeons and dragons, and the outdoors. She loves sharing the mistakes she's made, and the things she's learned, with other hospital owners and managers so they can grow their hospitals, teams, and themselves! Jenn will be talking about writing better job ads at the upcoming Get Sh*t Done Shorthanded virtual conference! You can save your spot here!

Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag


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Episode Transcript

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This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome everybody to The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast. Guys, I got a great one for you today. I am here with my good friend, the one and only Jenn Galvin. I'm bringing Jenn Galvin in. She is practice manager and co-owner at Advanced Animal Care in Fort Mohave, Arizona. It is a great practice. She is amazing. They have a great culture and they are doing great things. I am bringing her in because she is equipped to answer this question I got in the mailbag more than anyone, definitely more than me, and I am thrilled to have her here. Guys, I have a practice manager who is going to be buying into the practice from a veterinarian who's retiring. The original plan was that this veterinarian who owned the practice is going to retire and the practice manager and the associate vet were going to buy together as partners.
Something has come up. The associate vet can no longer buy in. The practice manager still wants to go forward, but they need or feel that they need a business partner. How do you find that? What do you need to look for? How do you talk about this? Where can this go wrong? Guys, I hope you're going to enjoy this episode.

Meg:
And now, The Uncharted Podcast.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and not Stephanie Goss, but the one and only, Jenn Galvin is here with me today. Guys, for those of you who don't know Jenn Galvin, she is a dear, dear friend of mine. We talk pretty much every week about life. We play games together like board games and nerd games, D&D stuff, things like that. We do all the nerdly things together. She is a dear friend of mine. She is a teacher at Uncharted. She runs, with Stephanie, our inventory workshop. She does our financial dashboard workshops. She has a workshop coming up at our Get Shit Done Shorthanded conference, which is a virtual conference in October. Jen, you are doing your workshop. That's hiring based on culture, right?

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. It's using your culture as an advantage in your job ads and turning them into something that's actually going to get people that you want in the seats that you need on your team.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, I love it. And also, when we were laying out the content for the conference and everything, it's how you can compete in a super crowded field where everybody is looking for talent. It's to say, “What's special about your practice? What is your culture? What are your values? What do you care about? What makes you unique?” and then how do you really use that to hire? I had Jason Szumski on the podcast a little while ago, who I love. He's on about two weeks ago. I love that guy. He's actually doing a presentation at GSD about what new grads want when they're being hired. He started laughing at one point. He said, “Your mentorship is what new grads are saying they want and you look at the job ads and every single job ad says it offers mentorship. And you go, look, when everybody says it, nobody's saying it.” So anyway, I'm really excited about what you guys do. You guys have a phenomenal culture at your practice. You are a co-owner with Dr. Erika Cartwright.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. Dr. Erika Cartwright.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I know. I completely had a brain fart there. I was like, “Dr. Erika. Oh, god, what's…” and then I was like, she does CrossFit and if I forget her name on the podcast, she's going to break me.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. She can bench you, Andy, so.

Dr. Andy Roark:
She totally can, so yeah. I'm like, don't mess this up, Roark and then I was like, Cartwright, yeah. So Erika Cartwright is amazing. You guys have such a fun practice. I will never, ever, ever forget. You really made an impression on me. The day that we became friends was when you and Erika showed up at the Uncharted conference in your dumb and dumber suits. One of you has a powder blue, three-piece suit and a top hat and the other has a neon orange three-piece suit in it, suit and tie [inaudible 00:03:57]. I was like, I think I just found my friends. I found my friends forever-

Jenn Galvin:
That was a lot of fun.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… and then some.

Jenn Galvin:
Now, we just have to try to up that every year, so that's going to get interesting as the years go by.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, we're going to need more insurance at Uncharted. Okay. Well, thanks for being here. You are here because I need your help, because I got a great question in the mailbag that I really, really like. Honestly, there's no one else in the entire world that I think is better suited to answer this question than you are. So let me break this thing out. I'm going to grab it. It is right here. Are you ready for it?

Jenn Galvin:
I am. Shoot. Shoot it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, perfect. I am a practice manager and currently own with the managing veterinarian who's approaching retirement age. Our plan was for myself and our current associate to buy the practice together fully next year. Unfortunately, our associate's going through a tough divorce and no longer wants to purchase the practice with me. I am now looking to find what I call a business marriage, and this is when you came into my mind, to find a veterinarian that wants to become an owner with me. My question for you both is do you have any recommendations for veterinarians and managers owning together and how to navigate that? I have found that in my current partnership that having both a veterinarian and manager as owners really allows us to lean on each other and have support. All right. So that is when you popped into my head, business marriage. What makes it work? Actually, do you want to go ahead and start to talk about Advanced Animal Care and how you came to be an owner with it and what your partnership with Erika, the veterinarian, looks like?

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. We had the fortunate circumstance of working previously together and so we got to know each other a lot. I think just like other relationships, you have to know who you're going to partner up with. Because we came from another hospital where we knew each other and knew that we would work well together, we were fortunate enough that when the opportunity came to buy a practice together, we knew this was going to work. Our personalities mesh really well. Here are the things that are important to me and this is what's important to you and do those things align? For instance, if staff appreciation is not high on my partner's list, that's not going to be a good match for me because that's very high on my list. So I think you have to have aligning goals and beliefs and culture though. If those things don't match up, that's going to be a bummer.
A lot of those boxes were checked for both of us and I feel like we were very lucky to find each other. So we purchased the hospital, worked 24/7 on getting it built up. We bought it on April Fools' Day, which that still makes sense for Erika and I. We opened July 25th in 2012, so we just celebrated our 10-year anniversary, which we're very excited about.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Congratulations.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. It's been really great. I can honestly say every year, it just gets better and we understand each other better and we work on it. It's just like any other relationship, you have to work on it. It was funny. She sent me a text this year on our anniversary and she said, “Happy 10-year anniversary. Yay, we still love each other,” and it's true because I've seen those go sour.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, totally. I think that's a whole other podcast. We'll see if we can touch on it today. You guys do love each other because you take very intentional steps to continue to be good friends. I'm going to try to touch on that in this episode because it's something that you guys do that I've thought a lot about. I think you've got so many things figured out there. Okay, here's how I want to do this. I want to turn this around to you and say, okay, Jenn, you've been through this. It's Jenn Galvin in the multiverse and in the other multiverse, there is no Dr. Erika Cartwright. You are going to have to find a doctor that you are going to partner with to own a vet practice. You have that realization. I want you to walk me through how you would go about doing this.
So start in a headspace place and let's always start with headspace. How do you get your thoughts aligned? What are realistic expectations? How are you going to get yourself into a place where you say, “Okay, I have to do this. What am I thinking?” Then I'm going to push you into make me some action steps of how you would go about finding this partner for you based on the experiences that you had.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. Obviously, I would panic first because this person has every-

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, of course you panic.

Jenn Galvin:
… right to panic.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes.

Jenn Galvin:
Have that moment. Get that out of your system. Get that all out first, then actually think about what do you want this person to be like. What are you looking for? If you don't know what you're looking for and you're just out there like, “I need a vet. I need any vet. Any vet will do,” that's bad. Avoid that.

Dr. Andy Roark:
That's desperation.

Jenn Galvin:
Right. Let's not get desperate. Get all that out of your system and then really think about what boxes does this person need to check, and that has a lot to do with your own personality, because you don't want a clone of yourself. That's a terrible idea. If I had to work with me every day, it would be awful. I couldn't work with myself. I think in our partnership, we have a lot of aligning things where we believe the same things, but we do not have the same personality type.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I think that's important, yeah.

Jenn Galvin:
It is very important. Erika is an extrovert. I am an introvert. I am softer with the team and she drives. She wants to go, go, go and I'm the one that steps back and says, “Maybe we should just pump the brakes.” So I think you really need to see, who am I? What kind of person am I and what do I expect out of the business and my team? What things do I see in the future? How do I want to grow and what do I want a partner to bring to that? What puzzle pieces need to fit in? Maybe this person can look at the current partner that they have and make that list of, what do I admire about this person? What good things do they bring to the partnership? What things do I wish I could change maybe about… Maybe don't show them that part of the list, but-

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, no, keep that to yourself.

Jenn Galvin:
What things do I maybe wish I could change and tweak? I would start there, honestly. That's where I would start is who is filling this role? What do they seem like? What's their personality like? What skills do they have? That sort of thing.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I like that a lot. I love the fact that this person used the term business marriage because I do take a lot of these things back to a relationship level and say, “This is going to be your partner. They are your business partner. That's what they are.” Just like a relationship partner, we should stop and be like, what are the deal-breakers for me? What am I looking for? It's not someone who's exactly like me. I think that I completely agree, that's not a good partnership. A good partnership is complementary people. I really believe that. I love how you said it. It's aligned beliefs with complementary skills.
I think my wife and I share very similar beliefs about what's important in life and what makes a good life and we are very different people, but we have that same north star. I think we've been successful in Uncharted because me and Stephanie and Jamie and Ron and the rest of the gang, we share a north star and we're all very different people, but we're all looking at the same thing as far as what we think is important and how we make a difference in the world. So I go back to this. I really like that idea of going, what's important to me?
What I'm taking from you as well is I think you have to know what your beliefs are and what do you care about. You said we have to have the same goals and beliefs and culture thought and staff appreciation and staff support. If that doesn't matter to you, we're probably not going to get along because that's a key driver for me. So I think those are really important. Would you make a deal-breaker list? Are there things before-

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… you even talk to someone, you'd be like… Yeah? What would be your deal-breakers? Because I need to get my head around what a deal-breaker would be that I would know going in. I'm sure I would see it immediately and be like, “No,” but I'm trying to think of what that would be like.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. If you have somebody that if the staff gets paid, that's enough. I shouldn't have to do extra things. Staff appreciation's way high for me. You have to laugh. If you were the super serious, for me, I can't work with somebody that is the hammer that we don't laugh. We don't have fun. This is serious thing because vet med is serious enough. So big sense of humor is really far up there for me, so that would be a deal-breaker. Somebody that definitely works hard when you are an owner. It's different than being just a DVM. It's different. I was support staff for a lot of years and you think you know what ownership is like. You don't know it until you do it and you know how it's different when you own it. It's your baby and I think that's going to be difficult.
It's different when you go into a partnership together and you build something from the ground up. I think something this practice owner and manager has to be wary of too is you're bringing somebody into that baby, so just keep that in mind. So I think having somebody that's flexible. It's that rigid personality that would be a deal-breaker for me in that situation.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I think one of the big things for me that I think about these days is practice style. I think that there's a lot of different ways to run a practice, but I think you and your partner need to be aligned. Meaning, are you a white-glove, high-touch practice or are you a high-volume, lower cost practice? They're not better or worse, they're just different animals. If I'm trying to be white-glove, high-touch and you, Jenn, are trying to be, let's keep prices affordable and get them in and get them out, we're just going to have a fundamental difference about what we're trying to do. You can't run a business when the ultimate goal you're trying to achieve is polar opposite from each other, so I think that's really important. I really like your idea. I think one of the things that's weird here that makes this a little bit harder is our manager who's writing to us.
They've already got a practice. When you and Erika did it, you were starting a practice and I could see that if we're going to go in and we're going to figure each other out and we're going to attract people that fit with our vibe. There's an existing thing here and so we got to bring somebody who fits with that culture. A lot of it goes back to what your core values are. I think if you don't know what your core values are, one of the quick exercises I really love is, think about the employees that you have or the people that you work with or the people in your life who you would love to clone. If you could clone them and put them to work in your practice, you would take over the world. Once you've made that list, I want you to think about those people and then I would say to you, what specifically do they do? What are the characteristic or traits that you really love about them?
And that, my friends, are often your core values or at least you're starting to get into the realm of your core values, because the things that you admire in these people are enough to say, that's the person I would clone. That's something that you care about. So for me, work ethic is a big one and I think that you pointed that out too. I think my own personal hell would be a partner with someone who was not as invested as I am or did not want to work as hard on the thing as I do. It's that classic, imagine doing a group project when you're the one who does all the work and the other people hang on, except it's your life. That's how I feel about that. I'm like, that can't happen.

Jenn Galvin:
Yes.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I would lose it.

Jenn Galvin:
And I was that person in high school chemistry who did the diorama myself or what because I just wanted it done right and everybody's like, “Just let her do it. Whatever.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
That's my wife 100%. She will carry the load and I'm like, I'm partnering up with her and I'll carry my share, but I want to be with somebody who would do that. Integrity is one of my core values. I don't want to work with somebody who's going to have shaky integrity. I think it's really hard to figure that out. I think you try to vet these people as best you can. It's a small profession. You're about to make a big commitment. I would try to ask around and see what you can learn about people in an ethical way, of course. We're not going through their trash. That's frowned upon apparently, I found out, and so we're not doing that, but things like that. What are your core values? All right. So that makes sense to me. Anything else in the headspace where you're like, okay, I get it. I'm looking for values alignment. Some people are going to ask, how do you know if they align with you on values? Let me ask you that. How do you determine that?

Jenn Galvin:
You're never going to 100% know, so let's just put that out there, because you don't know anybody truly until you are with them. We all have the honeymoon phase with new hires. We've all done the like, “This person's going to fit great,” and then three months later, you're like, “What was I thinking? They had me fooled.” This goes into next steps, but if you can network enough and find out, “Hey, who has this person previously worked with?” I'm going to talk to those people and see, how was it working with Dr. whosy-whatsy?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, yeah.

Jenn Galvin:
You know what? How did they make you feel, I think is an important question to ask, not just, yeah, they gave great vaccines and did a good spay. Great. Okay. How did they make the people around them feel is going to tell you a lot more about, how are they going to make my people feel? How are they going to make me feel? So I think you have to really dig and ask other people that have worked with this person because you're not going to know. You're never going to know until it's you in that seat with this other person that you're now sharing a big chunk of your life with. There are weeks where I spend more time with Erika than I do my husband. It's just the way that it goes sometimes. You're not going to know until you're in it, but I think there are ways that you can figure that out, at least get a good feel from others that have worked with that person.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I like that a lot too. I love that you're saying that. You're not going to really know. I think one of the scariest things in life is when you're like, I'm going to make this big commitment and hope that it works out. I always find that to be terrifying. The other thing I found though, is that I can generally avoid those situations if I really try to. I think anytime that you're like, “I hope this works out. Let's go,” that's very rarely really required. Go back to marriage, for example. Unless you're getting married on a reality TV show, you've got the potential to try this out for a while. I must be honest. I lived with my wife for two years before we got married. I think we were both, let's see how this goes. We got a dog together. My mom was like, “Are you sure about this?” and I was like, “Yeah.” That's pretty much when I knew we were going to get married. We got a dog together and I was like, “I really love this dog. I guess-

Jenn Galvin:
I'm not going anywhere now.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… I'm getting married to this woman. I'm not going anywhere now.” But I had a long time to warm up to that before we actually got married. So the takeaway is get a dog with this person. No.

Jenn Galvin:
No.

Dr. Andy Roark:
The nice thing about having an existing practice is, is there a pilot program?

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Is there somebody that we can talk to about why don't you come in and in 90 days, we're going to start to talk? We're going to revisit this and if you still think you want to do this partnership thing, then come on in and if you don't, then that's okay. I think using the time that we have now to get somebody in and now talk to them openly, because what you don't want to do is bring someone in. They're there for 90 days and they're like, “Oh, no, I never wanted to be an owner. I just want to punch out at 5:00 and go home,” and you're like, “Oh, I wish I'd known that 90 days ago. I would still hire you, but I would not be sitting around waiting to see how you felt.”

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So yeah, I think that's really insightful. That's a benefit that you have when you're not starting up because you've already got a practice, so can we pilot this thing?

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I also don't like to set these things up because you can imagine being the person coming in. You're the vet and you're brought in and like, “Maybe you can be the part owner here. We're going to watch you like a hawk and see how you do.” That's really weird too. I think I would frame it as you come along and then at 90 days, you're going to see how you feel and you're going to talk to me and I'm going to see how I feel and I'm going to talk to you and this has got to work for everybody. I don't like the idea that this is some interview where the current manager has the power and the new person is begging. That's not how I want to do a relationship. We're both coming together to be like, “Hey, how is this for you and how's this for me? This is how I feel and this is how you feel and let's continue on or let's not.” I like that.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. They have to date for a while, I think, is if you're going to do an analogy about it. I think if you have somebody that is willing to not know your practice, not know your people, not really know you, but they're going to come on and be your partner immediately, that tells you a lot about that person. That's scary.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I think that's true. Yeah. It is funny when you put it that way. Yeah, that's a rather bold, possibly impulsive person that I would have questions about. Yeah, that's really insightful.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. If I got a phone call from a vet that said, “Hey, you want to come partner with me out in Florida or something?” I would not just say yes to that. If that was on the table, it would be like, “Oh, how about we do six months of just me being a practice manager, feel out your practice, see if it's a good fit and then…” I think that's a really smart way to do it, is just put them in a role of associate and date for a while and see how that goes.

Dr. Andy Roark:
It sounds ridiculous when you say like, “Oh, this person would come out and just be our partner.” I see that stuff all the time. I'm not kidding. I see a lot of people who are like, “Hey, come and run this practice and be a co-owner with me.” I 100% see those offers all the time and they never feel good to me. I'm not going to say they don't work out because there's probably people out there who's like, that's exactly what I did and it was great. It has always skeeved me out a little bit for whatever reason. I've always felt like this doesn't feel good. I'm much more of a, let's take this slowly and figure out how to move in that direction and make sure everybody's okay before we lock ourselves in.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Cool.

Jenn Galvin:
Andy, do you want to take a break maybe?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Let's take a quick break and then we'll get right back and we'll talk about action steps. Where do we go from here?

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey guys, I just want to jump in here real fast and give a shout out to Banfield the Pet Hospital for making our transcripts available. That's right, we have transcripts for The Cone of Shame Vet Podcast and The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast. You can find them at drandyroark.com and at unchartedvet.com. This is part of their effort to increase inclusivity and accessibility in vet medicine. We couldn't do it without them. I got to say thanks. Thanks for making the content that we put out more available to our colleagues. Guys, that's all I got this time. Let's get back into this.
All right. Let's get back into this real quick. We've talked a bit about what we're looking for. Let's get in some action steps to help this guy out. So we've got our practice manager and he is looking to bring somebody else in. Let's talk about some action steps. We've thought about what's important to us, what our values are. We're bonding on the north star. We maybe like to take it slow and try this out and see if we can set up a system to date a little bit before we throw into a work marriage. I like all of those sorts of things. Where do you start to solidify this, Jenn? How does this turn from ideas about what would be good into action?

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. I think once you know who you are and what you're looking for and you know what that other person looks like, I think you really have to put yourself out there. It's going to be hard. I don't know if this practice manager is an introvert like myself, but you have to get out there. I think networking is going to be a huge part of finding someone. We all know trying to hire a veterinarian right now is super difficult, and so that alone is going to be a barrier for this person. I know that from coming to Uncharted and going to different conferences, I've met a lot of people and I tended to put myself in a little bit of an introvert box because that's who I am, but I think in this situation, you have to get out there and you have to start rubbing elbows, getting to know some people and then start putting your feelers out and just have some honest conversations. I think it's time to be brave and say what you're looking for.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.

Jenn Galvin:
You can't just wait to see. If I sit in my practice and put an ad out, I'm sure somebody will answer, but that's not going to work in this situation.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I completely agree. I love that. I think you're totally right. I think a lot of people would sit back and maybe send some emails or put an ad out because that's how you find people. I agree with you. I'd push back strongly against that and say you have a unique opportunity for a veterinarian and what you can't do is sell yourself short. Hopefully, you have a good clinic, a good culture. It sounds like you do, but there's a lot of vets out there who would love to be an owner and they especially love to have a partner and there's a lot of us who don't. This is scary to be a practice owner alone, but I would totally be a practice owner with a partner, especially someone who has experience running the practice who's done it for a long time, who's not green like I am, as someone who's never owned a business, let's say.
I think you've got a really unique and interesting offer. I think mistakes that people make is they don't put themselves out there. They don't go to the local vet conferences. I say local. You can go national. Honestly, people would probably travel for a position like this, but at least the local stuff, and get out and start to talk to people about what you're doing and what your hopes are. It's a small profession, guys. People are networked. Ask people, especially people that you respect. When we were looking to hire an executive director of Uncharted, the way I started was I went to people that I admired the most in this industry and said, “Hey, I know this is probably not a position that you're looking for,” because they're generally farther along in their career.
I said, “This isn't a position that you are looking for, but I really need this person and this is what's really important to me. Is there anyone that you can think of who you think I should talk to or reach out to?” and I got such a great list of people who said, “Well, these are people that I would talk to.” Ultimately, we ended up with just rockstar candidates and got an amazing, amazing executive director. But that's how I started, because I don't know. It was in an area. Our executive director is an operations person. It's an area that I don't know all that well and so I had to ask other people, “Who do you know who could run an organization that's [inaudible 00:27:36]?” and we found it and that was great, but it was really that this is what's important to me. This is what they would be doing. Do you know anyone that you would recommend?
I just found that to be the most effective thing I've ever done as far as going in, not knowing people myself, hardly, and still coming back with really great recommendations of if you haven't looked at this person. And it turns out, I even knew some of the people, but I just didn't know that there would be something they'd be interested in. So anyway, I like that a lot, going out and rubbing elbows. I think that makes a ton of sense, but you can't be a shrinking violet. You can't be a wallflower about it. You really do need to put them out.
I also think that that's a whole lot easier to do when you settled on this onboarding pilot trial program, because then it's not like, “Oh, my God, what it is…” It's like, “Hey, is there anyone who wants to come along?” I'm going to talk to a number of people and then we're going to bring some people in and try them out and see if the partnership might work and take our time and go from there, but that would be a path to ownership, not in years, in months, potentially. I like that a lot.

Jenn Galvin:
I really love what you were saying about don't sell yourself short because this practice manager, if they know that end of it and they can say, “Hey, I have your back. You can practice medicine and you'll still own a clinic and you'll still have input and you'll still be able to do all these great things that you don't have to do yourself because you've got somebody that has your back,” that's huge and I think that's really appealing to the veterinarians that want to own and work. That's huge to me. Erika and I talk about that a lot. I don't know how people do this by themselves. It is really scary and it's stressful, and to have that other person that you can lean on, I think putting it out there and saying like, “Hi, I've got half the load. I'm going to do this part. You're not going to be stuck by yourself doing this. You can be an owner and I have your back,” that's a huge thing you can put on the table. So I love that you were touching on that.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, I think that you're totally right. How many veterinarians out there would love to own a practice? When they think about practice ownership, what they're really thinking about is the client experience and the patient care and things like that, but the whole business thing is a big, scary black box and that's a lot of veterinarians. That's why I say you can't sell yourself short. This is really a neat opportunity to come in to affect the culture, to make the practice what you want it to be, especially on the medical side and do the things that you're excited about without the scary part of business if it's a scary part to you, and I think that's true for a lot of vets. One of the things I want to put on the action list, and I think people assume this, but I just want to call it out really clear, there's some behind the scenes work that you've got to do as well.
I want to keep my relationship with the current owner good while we go through this process. So if I can keep the current owner around and engaged and on board with me working on this, bringing someone in, trying them out, being flexible, not feeling threatened. And you're like, “Why would they feel threatened? They're retiring.” People are weird. You know what I mean? And people get worried about when I leave, what are they going to do with my baby? There's still some real emotions and stuff, and so I would make sure that I'm keeping that relationship strong and trying to include that person while also controlling where we go and what we do, but making sure they feel heard. They don't feel discarded or cast out or cut off because they do have the potential to make things really hard on you before they go.
So keep them in. Keep them involved in the conversation. Ask them for advice that those are just basic things of… And there's all the benefits that come with it, but it prevents some of those hurdles of the person who's headed out the door, torching the place as they go. Again, I'm sure this person would never do that, but there are people out there who would. The other thing I would say is I would keep this current associate who's going through a divorce. I would keep him or her in my thoughts as well. I would also try to maintain that relationship because that would have to be hard, especially I would ideally probably like to keep this other associate. Maybe they wouldn't. I don't know. Maybe they want to be a two vet practice. That's all they want to be. I don't know, but if I want to keep this other associate again, I'm going to invest some time into this conversation. I want to be really supportive.
I think this would be emotionally hard for that person who is like, “I was going to be the owner and now I've had this crappy thing happen in my life and it really sucks.” I've not gone through a divorce, but I know people who have, and none of them recommend it as a fun hobby that you should pick up. So I think that that would suck. How bad would that suck is you had this-

Jenn Galvin:
Hell, yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… big plan and you go through divorce and then not only are you dealing with divorce, but you're also not doing this thing that had been your plan. That'd be freaking awful, and so be compassionate to that person, but also mostly because I want to retain that person and also when I get another owner in, I want our previous associate to be supportive and not to be jaded and angry. All those things are just keeping balls in the air and keeping relationships strong to make us ultimately a better, stronger practice in the future. Anyway, you can't control other people, but-

Jenn Galvin:
And that associate, they may change their mind maybe in a year-

Dr. Andy Roark:
Totally.

Jenn Galvin:
… or two. If you've burned that bridge or they felt segregated or that there's hard feelings there, maybe that will take that off their plate, but maybe in a year or two, I don't know how long this other doctor that's retiring is going to stay on in this situation, but maybe that associate will change their mind. The other thing that I thought of as you were talking is maybe these people are a good source of networking. Maybe the doctor that's retiring out, maybe they have a really great relationship with the local VHMA or maybe they know other people that they can introduce you to. Use those people. I know if I'm leaving here, if I left my partnership, I don't want to just walk away and be like, “Best of luck finding a practice manager. Good luck to you.”
I'm going to help find that replacement, at least in the channels and places that I can do that. Maybe that's somebody that this practice manager can turn to and say, “Hey, I know you're looking to retire. Do you have ideas? Do you know people? What thoughts do you have?” and maybe that's somewhere that they can turn.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I suspect I could say how I would feel if I was going out retiring. I would feel some type of a legacy there or I would want some sort of a legacy. I don't think that's too arrogant to say-

Jenn Galvin:
No.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… because you would like to feel like you have an impact that lasts beyond the time that you're gone.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I think everybody wants that and so I think keeping that person there is really important. One of the other things I think is understandable if you are the manager bringing someone in, and that's why I see this a lot, I think one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they float an offer like this to a veterinarian and they're like, “Come in. This other person is retiring at some undisclosed time in the near future and then you will have an opportunity to be the owner assuming everything goes well.” That sounds like a really fair offer and a truthful offer and everyone's intentions are good. I counsel veterinarians all the time to turn that deal down, all the time. The reason is because the veterinarian, this is where we have to put ourselves into the shoes of the person who would be the partner, if they come to your practice because of an ownership opportunity or potential ownership opportunity, that's what they're coming for. I have seen too many vets dragged along, strung along with this carrot that keeps getting pulled away.
It's like, “Yeah, I'm totally going to sell to you. I'm just not ready to retire yet, but soon I'm going to,” and I've seen people just feel very, very resentful that they imagine they'd be a practice owner in a year and a half and it's five years and it's still not materialized into a contract. I see that a lot. I think what's fair to the veterinarian is to be up front and say, “This is the timeline that we're working on. This is what we expect the retirement to be. This is what our grace period, our trial period's going to be. At this point, we are going to make a decision. I'm not going to string you along. I'm either going to say, yes, let's do this or I'm going to say, no, let's don't this.”
But if I was the vet coming in, I would very strongly push for that to say, “Is it a three-month trial? Is it a six-month trial? How long are we going to try this for before you say, ‘Yes, we're doing it' or ‘No, we're not'?” And we sign a contract saying that this is our intention and we're moving forward. Because I don't want to come in and get strung along under promises that some point, I will be let to know that I can now become an owner. So I would push hard for that clarity if I was coming in. I just think it's something that the manager should maybe expect as they make a plan.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah, 100%. They can talk to their legal counsel and get that written up so that everybody understands this is the layout. This is what we're doing. Again, I think that setting expectations from the beginning is always better than trying to catch up later, so make sure everybody is on the same page. Even the employees, when you think of those guys, don't leave your support staff flapping in the breeze not knowing what's going on. They're going to see, okay, one of our doctors is retiring. What does that mean for us? Are they going to have to fire half of us? Employees can spiral way out, which I think it's important-

Dr. Andy Roark:
And they do.

Jenn Galvin:
They do.

Dr. Andy Roark:
They do.

Jenn Galvin:
They absolutely do, so I think it's important to think of who is affected by this and who needs to be kept in the loop and know what's going on.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Well, those clear expectations as well. I push this back to the other relationships in the practice. I think having that expectation of, hey, we told this person they were going to be the owner and they're coming in and we have this agreement about how this is going to go, I think that that can be valuable if our other associate who has backed away starts to feel resentful or starts to come back and go, “You know what? I think maybe I would like to do that.” I would like to say, “Hey, we brought this other doctor in and she's got this agreement and this is what we told her was going to happen. So the door right now is closed for that.”
You should know that before you fall in love with the idea or start to think, hey, now that I see how this is going, I think I would like to be involved. Maybe we could have three partners instead of two, it's good to say, “You know what, buddy? That's just like a great idea. I'm sure you'd be amazing at it, but we don't have that option because we set these expectations and this is what's in writing.” The same thing with the current owner and that actually may end up being the hardest part of this, is in order to really do this in the way that we're talking about with clear expectations where people feel good, I need to have a commitment from the current owner about when they are going to step away because what I can't do is have the current owner who's like, “I'm going to do it soon.” It's like, “I need to communicate what the timeline is for this other person to come in and move into an ownership position, which means I need to have a timeline from you for when you're trying to transition out.”
I think what I would probably say to the owner is, “This is what I need in order to keep the practice going. I would play to what is good for the practice owner who's leaving is you want a legacy. You want a smoothly running practice. We want to get the best person in here. I need to have this clarity so I can attract that person and build a good footing.” The other thing I think I'd probably say for the current owner is, “This doesn't mean you have to leave. You can be a part of what we're doing, but you do need to transition out of the owner position so that we can move on. We'd love to still have you here and have you around in the short term, at least, depending on how things go, but we'd love to have you around, but you do need to set an ownership transition plan and a timeline so that we can hire for that.”

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. I think maybe you have new grads that want to step into the ownership role, but that's tough. You're right out of vet school and that's scary time, but you want to own your practice one day. Maybe the other owner can stay on and that can be part of that agreement, that they're there to do the mentorship thing and then they hand the whole thing over. There's so many ways to do it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Right. I love that idea and that also might affect your timeline. If you have a new grad who comes in who says, “I'm here. I want to get mentored. I would like to own the practice in a year and a half or in two years, I would like to take ownership.” I think that's a fair deal, and a lot of times, I think a lot of new grads would say, “I want to be an owner, but I really want to focus on getting this medicine down. If I had two years to really just see cases and work and integrate myself into the culture, then I think I could pick this owner thing up.” Honestly, I'd say that's probably pretty much your perspective to have.
Really, if you got another vet who's been out eight years and they're like, “I'm ready to go. Let's come in, figure out if this is going to work and I'll take over or I won't and I'll move on,” that's just a different timeline. It's not right or wrong, it's about what the person needs. So it's just good conversations. The current owner can really help you out by being supportive of how this transition looks and that transition is going to depend on the person who's taking it. Awesome. Do you got anything else to add to this, Jenn?

Jenn Galvin:
I could talk about vet med for hours and hours, but I think we've covered a lot of it. I think just really defining what you're looking for and being honest and open with all of the people, that's going to really be a huge thing. Get out there and network the heck out of yourself and your practice. Go to vet schools. Talk to grads that are coming out. Talk to your reps. Talk to your [inaudible 00:41:34] rep and your Patterson rep and whoever. Talk to those people. They know a lot of vets. They talk to a lot of people. You have to put yourself out there and now is not the time to be shy.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I'm glad you said reps. I should have mentioned that. I mentioned that a lot to students over to veterinarians looking for jobs. Your industry reps are in all the practices and, especially the ones who've been around a while, they tend to know the gossip in the practices. They know who's happy, who's not. They know who has been standing in line. They own a practice for a long time and is really frustrated because they're not getting the opportunity they were promised. They tend to know things like that. They tend to know who's really popular with the staff, but is not currently an owner or an upper management or medical director. They tend to know that stuff. I don't think that's dirty pool, I think that's just saying to these people, “Hey, you see a lot of practices. If you see anyone that you think would be a fit for this specific role, let me know.”
I think it's different if you use those people to try to hire support staff or things like that, but this is you're looking for someone to run your hospital and it's a narrow role. It's one job position. I don't see that as a negative as well. Anyway, that's the thoughts. I want to do a shameless plug for the Uncharted community here. Jenn Galvin, you've been with us a long time. You've received the Founder's Award, which is the one award that we give in Uncharted for people who are other members have said, “This person helped me more than anyone else. They made the biggest impact on me and they didn't have to.” So you have received that. It's the highest honor that we can bestow and you have gotten it. You were one of five people who have gotten it in the five years that we have been in existence. What is your favorite thing about the Uncharted community? Why are you part of it?

Jenn Galvin:
Oh, man. There are so many things I love about our community. I think that we are real with each other, is probably that is my favorite part, is that no one is going to make you feel like you're a crazy person or a bad person. You can just put your stuff out there and say, “Hey, I need help. Here's my thing.” Even if you yourself are embarrassed of that thing, I don't know all the things, nobody does, but you can go to our community and say, “Hey, I've got this issue or this is the crazy thought I'm thinking. What do you guys think?” and you will get all of these people that, “Hey, I've been there. Hey, I dealt with this. Hey, you're not crazy. You're not on an island.” That is my favorite thing is that we are real with each other and they are genuine, kind, wonderful people that will help you. You just got to ask for it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Oh, man. Thanks a lot for being here, Jenn. I really appreciate you.

Jenn Galvin:
Yeah. I love being here. Anytime.

Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, guys. Take care of yourselves. That's it, guys. That's what I got for you. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you got something out of it. Thanks again to Jenn Galvin for being here. Guys, if you want to check out Uncharted or the Uncharted community or the Get Shit Done Shorthanded conference, head over to unchartedvet.com and get registered to join the community. Check out our online conference if you want, if want to go that way first. It is October 6th through the 8th. Go ahead and march yourself off at the clinic so you'll be able to participate in what we're doing. Our conferences are super interactive. This is not sitting and watching webinars. This is hands-on working on your own business type stuff. Gang, that's what I got for you. If you got a lot out of this episode, please share with your friends. Feel free to write us an honest review wherever you get your podcast, all those things that people ask for. Gang, that's it. All right, I'm done. Take care of yourself. Have a great rest of your week.

Written by Dustin Bays · Categorized: Blog, Podcast · Tagged: business, manager, partner, Practice ownership

Aug 31 2022

We Have A Manager…They Don’t Manage

Uncharted Podcast Episode 193 Cover Image

This Week on the Uncharted Podcast…

Have you ever worked somewhere that the team felt frustrated at the lack of accountability for repeated mistakes and the drastic differences in work ethic between staff members? When frustration like this extends over time, the result can be cultivating an office environment with a huge increase in tension, gossip, and bickering. Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss tackle a mailbag question from a veterinary technician who is grappling with a hospital environment like this. They feel like their practice owner and manager haven't really addressed things from the perspective of the team but this tech feels they might be open to suggestions on what to do and how to approach the situation. Our vet tech says they are “not really sure where to even start with coming up with an overhaul in training/rewards/consequences..” and asked for input from Andy and Stephanie. These are great questions and common challenges we are excited to talk about so let’s get into this…

Uncharted Veterinary Podcast · UVP – 194 – We Have A Manager…They Don't Manage

Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.


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Thank you to our sponsors! To learn more about this week's sponsor, GuardianVets, check out their website HERE.


Upcoming Events

October 6-8, 2022: Get Sh*t Done Shorthanded Virtual Conference

This 3-day live, interactive virtual conference features a customizable learning journey for practice leaders who are tired of being overwhelmed and want to get their practice back under control. Explore how you’re working, isolate challenges, diagnose pain points, share best practices and pull together a sustainable plan to overcome obstacles.

While Uncharted Membership is always encouraged, you DO NOT have to be a member to join us for GSD! Non-members, here’s your chance to see what all the buzz is about and get a taste of the Uncharted experience.


Episode Transcript

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This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss. You got second to talk about GuardianVets?

Stephaine Goss:
Yeah, what do you want to talk about?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed because the phones never stop ringing.

Stephaine Goss:
Yes.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And I'm sure you hear from these people, as well. Like, “Our caseload is blowing up and the doctors are busy and the phones just don't stop.”

Stephaine Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip the switch and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk, and they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments and give them support, and it really is a godsend.

Stephaine Goss:
Pre-pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after-hours call help, but at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that they are offering help during the daytime as well, which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices because everybody is shorthanded. Everybody is drowning in phone calls, and so we talk about it. We've talked about GuardianVets a lot on the podcast, and every time we do, we always get somebody who says, “What is that?”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use some help on the phones or up the front desk, check them out. It's guardianvets.com and if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So check it out, guardianvets.com.

Stephaine Goss:
Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are diving into another letter from the mailbag. It came to us from a technician who is a senior technician in their practice and they are struggling with feeling like they're in a practice where they have a manager entitled, but they maybe are not actually doing what should be done as a manager and this goes to talking about addressing behavior, bad behavior on the team, accountability, consequences, policies, procedures, protocols, culture as well. This one is a big giant can of worms and Andy and I had so much fun opening it and diving in. Let's get into this one.

Meg:
And now, the Uncharted podcast.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back it's me, Dr. Andy Rourke and Stephanie gossiping folk Goss. Some Missy Elliot gossip. I'm not going to rap like Missy Elliot does not because it can't just because no one will listen to the rest of the podcast. So I'll just be like, “Play that again. Rewind that.” So we can hear Andy rap like Missy Elliot. Hello there Stephanie Goss, how are you?

Stephaine Goss:
I'm good. How are you?

Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm good. My pitiful dog is stuffing his face between the arm of the chair and my leg. You know what I mean? His golden retriever part is coming out. He's a love sponge. He's not good, but he is a love sponge. Don't stop petting me, dad. Well yeah, and let's just be honest. He has reason to be concerned because he's feeling insecure and he should be because his position was definitely threatened recently. So I took Allison, we went hiking and we drove up to this trail.

Stephaine Goss:
Okay.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's up, it's up near Bristol, Tennessee and it's called the Devil's Bathtub and it was this awesome trip. It was like eight or nine miles long, but you have to cross the Creek like 10 times, so you have to take your boots off and everything.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So anyway, so I am not taking this fluffy, goofy dog, but he's being boarded as Allison and I take full advantage of our kids being at camp for the last time of the summer. So we go up there and we get to the trail hit and I get out of the car and this dog, he was some sort of a rat terrier mutt. He comes tearing up to me like, “Oh man, I've been waiting for you.” I mean you know that experience where they… He came running straight to me like, “I am so glad you're here.”

Stephaine Goss:
Right.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And he had a tag that said Bandit on it, and so Bandit was all about hanging out with me and Allison, and so as soon as he comes and he celebrates, he's like, “Let's go.” And Bandit leads the way to the trailhead.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And I'm like, “This is kind of weird.”

Stephaine Goss:
Where are your people?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, was like, “Where are your people?” Yeah and he's an intact boy too. So I'm like, “It's not unusable I bet for Bandit to be out.” And so anyway, so bandit decided he was like, “Yep, I'm with you guys. Let's go hiking.” And that dog, Stephanie, he stayed with us for like five hours. He navigated the entire trail all the times we had to cross the stream. He would go down. He knew exactly where he was going. He would run down and then cross over a log that's like 25 yards off the trail, or he would just hop from stone to stone. And it's funny, we'd watch him and would see what stones were loose because he'd jump on some of them they would shake.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And I'm like, “Oh, I'm not stepping on that one.” But I told Allison, I was like, “We're like six miles in and I was like we might have a new dog.” And then whenever we stopped to take a snack, he was right there. He was insistent that he also have a snack, and I was like, “This is not your first rodeo.” This dog has 100%, I bet he hikes that trail every day and suckers every day, give him granola bars and all sorts of things and so we got back to the house or to coming back down the trail.

Stephaine Goss:
Didn't his people ever turn up?

Dr. Andy Roark:
No. Oh no. So we're we're we are a half a mile from the end of the trail, and I was like, “Seriously, what are we going to do with this dog?” Do we just drive away and leave this dog?

Stephaine Goss:
Right?

Dr. Andy Roark:
He definitely seems to know what he's doing and so anyway, in the last half mile he just started getting farther and farther ahead of us and he didn't even say goodbye, which kind of hurt. It kind of hurt when he didn't look back over his shoulder. He just kind of ultimately left and Allison and I were leaving and we went to the trailhead, we got in a car and as we drove away, he was there laying on a front porch of this little shotgun shack.

Stephaine Goss:
Oh my gosh. How funny.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And I was like I bet Bandit's life is greeting people with the trailhead, hiking with them, eating their granola bars and snacks, and then coming home and crashing out at his house. Like I bet that's 100% his life. So anyway.

Stephaine Goss:
Oh my gosh, that's funny.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, so Skips a little bit insecure and he should be because anyway, I am confident Bandit is also not a good guy. Like Bandit is probably aptly named. I think he's a con man the whole way. He was super fun. He's like that friend in college you had. Super fun, cannot be trusted. That's Bandit.

Stephaine Goss:
You already have a dog that cannot be trusted. So adding another one into the mix.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah, totally. Yeah, exactly.

Stephaine Goss:
I can only imagine.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Like a rugged outdoor bad dog. Yeah, I don't need two bad dogs together. They would run cons as a team on me and my wife.

Stephaine Goss:
Oh my gosh.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So anyway, that's what's going on. So Skipper is still insecure ever since I came home and smelled like Bandit, and oh well. Sometimes you got to get the pressure on. You just be like, “Hey buddy, I could have you replaced in a heartbeat if you eat my sandwich off the countertop again.” 100%, you know how many dogs would love to live in this house with me? You better get your stuff in line.

Stephaine Goss:
Get it together Skipper.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, that's right.

Stephaine Goss:
Oh man. Well, I'm excited we have a great mailbag question today or series of questions. So we got a letter from someone who is a technician and they have been at their practice for six years and they have kind of grown in their role after having joined the practice as a technician, and now are one of the senior techs on the team and they love surgery and they love their team. They love the overall experience at their practice. There's a lot of good. They're really struggling because there seems to be a big problem and it has to do with what they say is a lack of structure, and that's one of the questions I want us to dive into. I think they do have a manager, but it sounds like maybe this manager, the actual job for this manager is maybe not practice manager.

Stephaine Goss:
So we're not super confident on what their responsibilities or the level of duties being assigned to this person, but they do have a manager and they are not actually managing because there is a lot of lack of accountability with the team when it comes to the jobs. So when mistakes get made, things happen over and over again. Doesn't seem like anybody's really held accountable and then sometimes there's consequences, sometimes there's not. They said sometimes someone has been talked to about issues and nothing seems to be getting done, and then other times people are randomly let go and nobody sure is this an accountability thing, is it not? So there's that challenge and then in addition to that, that has been helping cultivate in an environment where there is tension and gossiping and backstabbing, bickering kind of behavior amongst the team, right?

Stephaine Goss:
Because people are not being treated the same and everybody is seeing that, and so they said, “Well, the practice owner and our manager, haven't really dealt with it and I do feel like I have a good relationship with them, and I feel like they might be open to trying to put some policies and protocols in place.” They're not doing that on their own and so could I suggest things to them that might be helpful? And they said, “I'm not a manager, I haven't been trained and so I don't even know where to start.” And in particular where to start when it comes to overhauling training, rewards, consequences, those kind of things because that's where they see the challenge in this, and so they were asking if we had any input or advice because they would take it all.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Let me tell you what I love about this format is when things come to the mail bag, they generally, by the time I see them, they get to my desk, the identifying information has already been stripped out of them, which means I have no idea who writes to us and I really kind of like it because then I can always just say, “Look, I don't know what's going on your practice.” I don't have any idea who this is. I just read what you send me and take that as the full context that I have and then I tell you what I think. And I have the feeling if someone came up to me and spoke to me and said to me directly, this is what's going on. I would really have to balance their feelings a lot more. You know what I mean?

Dr. Andy Roark:
And things like that, but when I'm like, “Look, I just read what was there and I told you what I thought.” And I don't know what else is going. I don't know what the story is.,I'm not there. I haven't seen your practice. If I have seen your practice, I don't know your practice you're talking about, and it liberates me to be much more honest and candid than I would ever be. If someone raised their hand at a lecture in front of 300 other people and were like, “What do you think about this?” And I'd be like, “Oh boy.” I have to make sure I take care of this person who's been brave enough to ask me a question, and so with all that said, let me just say at the very beginning, everything in this letter could be 100% accurate and starting in about three minutes, I'm going to act like it is and go based on that belief. Between now and then I'm going to point out.

Stephaine Goss:
I can't wait to see where this is going.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah and again, this might mean absolutely nothing and I don't want to even get upset or anything. Whenever I see a letter that comes and it says, “This is my first practice that I've been at.” There's immediately some flags for me about questions, right? And again, and so the writer here is like, “Hey, this is my first practice and I've been there for a number of years and this is what I see.” And I always point this out because when people ask about management stuff is if you've only worked it one practice and you've only seen things one way, there's always the possibility that the grass is greener on the other side and again, I'll come back to this, or what you think, you go, “That can't be normal.” And the truth is that's 100% normal. All practices are are in the same weird boat and do these annoying things.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And so I have to just put that out of like, “No one's held accountable and people disappear, and blah.” And I go, “Okay, if this is the first practice that you've been in, it is quite possible that what we're seeing is the normal level of people not being held accountable and just trying to make a business go.” And so I don't have enough information to know whether what we're perceiving is really truly over the top or if this is a normal level of dysfunction of an American business. American or Canadian business. Does that make sense why I say that?

Stephaine Goss:
It totally does and I think you're not wrong. That's one of those things where one of the biggest pieces of advice that I give to people is work at more than one practice. Even if you love your practice, spread your wings, girlfriend or guy because whoever you are, you got to get out there and you got to experience things because every practice is different and there are so many different ways to do it, and only with that experience and seeing you… Three things can happen. You can go somewhere else and the grass can be greener and you can recognize, “Oh, that was a mess and there really is a better way to do this.” You can also go somewhere else and realize, “Oh my God, this other place is so much more of a dumpster fire. We actually had our shit kind of more together than we thought we did.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.

Stephaine Goss:
Sometimes that's a surprise and I think your point is a solid one, which is a lot of the times you go other places and you recognize this is a variation on a theme, and everybody really struggles with some of these issues.” And it is actually yeah normal and it falls… If you imagine normal like a shade of gray, there's lots of different shades to it, right? And there could be things that are more normal and less normal and so I think this is one of those things where you're not wrong. It is worth recognizing that every practice goes through this at some point or another.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Totally. Well and so I just wanted say that and that's why I said we're going to take about three minutes here just to call out and go whenever I see somebody who works in one practice and they say this is abnormal and these are not meeting standards, I always go. Hm, I don't know. I try to kind of gauge this and say okay, is this the grass is greener. I haven't worked other places and so I think that we're doing bad, but maybe we're not doing bad. I always like to put that up front and say, “I don't know this practice. I don't know this person.” From now on, I'm going to assume that the level of transgressions that we're talking about exceed, well, what is normal? And we're going to spend the rest of the episode going on about that.

Dr. Andy Roark:
But I always just like to call that at the beginning and go sometimes people don't get held accountable or it doesn't feel like they get held accountable, and sometimes there's not a plan, and sometimes there's chaos and sometimes we're not privy to the conversations that happen behind the scenes. And there's a certain level of that, that's just normal. I'm just going to go forward and making the assumption that we are beyond that, but it's just important to call it out just so that when people start to talk about these things, they don't immediately jump to this is awful, or Andy says that no one should ever be uninformed about what is happening. I go, “Okay, that's not what I'm trying to say.”

Stephaine Goss:
Okay and I would agree with you, and I think for me, there's a big split here in both of us say should is a very dangerous word, right? And there are two things here. One is HR related and disciplinary and what does accountability look like, right? And the other is cultural, is teamwork, is gossiping, is bickering, is talking behind each other's backs, right? And those two things can be tied together and at the end of the day, the hospital leadership should be responsible for both of those things, and as a team member who is a leader within the practice, but not necessarily the manager, you have a responsibility when it comes to the cultural piece as much as your leaders do when it comes to the HR piece, and the rules and protocols and policies and all the accountability piece. That is something that you can help and support and be a part of, but I'm glad you brought up the point Andy, that it's HR related, right?

Stephaine Goss:
So it will always live in a world of gray because you cannot know everything. You are not in a position where legally, you should know all of the things, and so that's one of those things where there's a split here for me and there's two separate issues to be talked about, but I think from a head space perspective, the important part for me is what you said, which is that when it comes to the HR stuff, you just have to remember that you are never going to know all of the things nor should you know all of the things, and so you have to start from a place of assuming good intent because you don't know the whole story.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yep. Totally. All right, I love that and that's the opening head space place I think is let's just put it on the table and say a lot of this stuff sounds like HR issues because we're looking at management and we're questioning HR policies and procedures. No, I'm sure this varies by the state. You and I speak nationally and internationally to people so we tend to speak in the most rigorous of terms. You are not supposed to know what is going on from a disciplinary standpoint with other people in the practice. You're not supposed to know that. It may look like people are just getting verbal warnings, and then one day they're being fired. There may be a robust process going on behind the scenes of writing people up of corrective plans. It is illegal for the people doing that to let the practice know that's what they're doing.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And so you might say, “No, I am very aware that these things are not happening.” I just always put that forward and say just know that you are not going to be privy to all the things that are happening and that's a frustrating thing and we talk to employees all the time who go, “I make these reports and I tell people what is happening and this is going on and they say, okay, and then nothing seems to happen.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And I always have to try to talk those people down and go, “Hey, I don't know what's happening. You can assume good intent and believe that a lot more is happening than what you know about, and the company, the business, the practice is not allowed to give you updates or tell you what they're doing.” They simply cannot do that, and so there is some of that. So I think know that's the thing. Come with a positive outlook and believe that, “Hey, maybe there's a lot of things going on that I don't know about and that may be going on.” And so that's just a good positive head space to start from.

Stephaine Goss:
Yeah, I love it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So start with empathy is the other thing, and I say this, and I hate you say start with empathy because I am the boss who tries to run the show and you try to make a great place for people to work that's not a military installation where there are rules and drill sergeants yelling at people, do this, don't do that, and there are punishments being meted out. And at the same time, people still need to treat each other in the ways that mash up with the core values, and they need to treat each other in ways that are professional and in ways that get work done. And so it's always that balance and I just have to say that as a business owner, I don't think people generally realize how hard that balance is to strike of this is not a police state.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And at the same time, we still need people to do what they say they're going to do and treat each other with respect, and so man, that balance is really hard to strike and it's easy to stand in a place and say, “Boy, we should have more structure. We have more accountability.” And then it's also easy to have too much and go, “Oh, this is awful. We can't do anything. We're being in trouble all the time. My boss just rides me. I'm getting written up for everything.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
I've seen both of those scenarios and everybody who's managing a practice is trying to balance those things and so there is some giving grace. That doesn't mean that we don't need to fix things because we all, we always need to work on them, but again, this is just about giving grace, starting from a place of empathy and saying, “I bet these people who are managing the practice are doing their best and they're doing their best.” And they push in one way and then there's push back and they sort of wrestle back and forth with that, but anyway, that helps me get into a positive healthy space where then I can start thinking about what am I going to do in this situation? But I don't know. That's about it for me for Headspace.

Stephaine Goss:
I think the other piece of empathy, I'm glad you said that and the piece that I would tie to that is as a team member, in veterinary medicine, one of the best pieces of advice that I could give is something that I learned the hard way, which is that I don't know, I wish there was an actual percent, but I'm just going to give you Stephanie's gut sense.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Sure, shoot it.

Stephaine Goss:
90%. I would say 90% of the people in veterinary medicine who are running practices as either a manager, owner, medical director, combination of all of the above have no formal training in business and leadership. It's really high, say 90, maybe it's less than that. Vets went to school to be vets. They didn't go to school, the vast majority of them to be MBAs. We have some doctors who are vets and who have their lodge degree or whatever, and have supplementary education that supports it, but there are way more managers and practice owners in veterinary medicine that don't have that kind of education and support than there are managers who do, and so one of the things that I always tell the team is when it comes to getting into that head space, just taking a step back and remembering that it makes it so much easier for me to assume good intent, because we don't know what we don't know as human beings.

Stephaine Goss:
And if I can look at somebody and be like, “Oh, Andy went to vet school, he didn't spend all that time learning the ins and outs of HR and management, that's its own separate degree.” Right? And so if I think about it in that context, it becomes a lot easier to ratchet down my frustration or anger or whatever to a level that feels manageable sometimes, and so I agree with you, I think the big part of the head space for me is that you have to start with empathy and that makes it easier for me I think to start with that empathy, because I can look at them as a person and be like, “Yeah, it's easy to give you the benefit of the doubt. You didn't go to school for this.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I think that's super important. I really like that a lot. The last thing about head space that I want to put honestly, I'm done with head space, but there's one more thing I want to put on just as I'm thinking about our action steps that's what thinking ahead is there's a bunch of things going on here, right? There is accountability, they said there's not a lot of structure, there's gossip, there's these people not only getting verbal warnings and then being let go, and there's a lot of different things here and so know that there's a lot of different things going on in this question about what's happening, and again, Rome wasn't built in a day and this is not one question of how do I get my practice organized so all these things goes away.

Dr. Andy Roark:
It sounds like there's a lot of different things going on and we need to make some structural modifications and changes, and that's going to take time because it's not a one tweak, one light switch flipped problem. This is a lot of different things. So again, settle in a little bit with some patients and then let's take a break and then we'll start to work through this, shall we?

Stephaine Goss:
Yeah, sounds good.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey guys, I just want to jump in here real fast and give a shout out to Banfield Pet Hospital for making our transcripts of available. That's right, we have transcripts for the Cone of Shame Vet Podcast and the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast. You can find them at drandyroark.com and at unchartedvet.com. This is a part of their effort to increase inclusivity and accessibility in vet medicine. We couldn't do it without them. I got to say thanks. Thanks for making the content that we put out more available to our colleagues. Guys, that's all I got this time. Let's get back into this.

Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, let's go ahead and talk about where we are, and let's talk about trying to work this into a reasonable place. My goal coming out of this is to have an action plan for the team I guess is what it would be. What I'd be working for is not to have all the problem solved because there's a bunch of different things going on and I don't have clarity on exactly what that is and it's just too much. So I think when we talk about action steps, my idea is not to build an action plan that solves the problems. My action steps are to build a collection of action steps that will walk us down the path of solving the problems in an organized, ongoing way. That how I'm looking at this. How do you feel about that, Stephanie?

Stephaine Goss:
Yeah, I think I'm heading the same direction you are with where to start because for me, I think some of it, a big piece of it is what are you trying to get out of this? Because there's so there's a lot to unpack. To your point and it is a multi-pronged challenge and so before we can say where do you start? The best question I could give you is what do you want to get out of this?

Dr. Andy Roark:
What does success look like?

Stephaine Goss:
Yeah because if you can't define that for yourself, I don't think you can figure out where to start because where you're going to start is going to depend on that question, and there's a couple different ways they could go, right? But think you got to ask the question.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I like it because it's a big multi tentacle beast problem. This is mixed metaphors. We need to get a North star. Sorry, I'm going to step back and go this a long journey we're talking about. We need a North star. We need to know where ultimately trying to go and that's the first thing is what does this look like when it's done? What do you want the practice to be like? How does that actually look in your mind as far as finding the balance of accountability and autonomy for people to kind of do what they want and to be themselves and express themselves and interact independently, things like that. So where are we trying to go? What does that look like?

Dr. Andy Roark:
So set that North star and so I would start with that. The other thing that I would say is remember the spiral staircase, right? And business is a spiral staircase, which means you're always looking and you're like if I could just get to that next level, everything would be great, and so you work hard and you get to the next level of staircase and it turns and you know what's there? Another staircase and guys, that's life and that's business and there's always going to be next staircase and so just put that in your mind. The big thing for me is North star, what does this look like? What do we want our practice to be like? If you haven't done your core values exercise, I would do your core values exercise. If you don't know what that is, consider getting your leadership to join Uncharted and check out our core values workshop that we do where we figure out what do these people care about?

Dr. Andy Roark:
What does the team care about? What do you want the practice to be from a meaning and purpose standpoint? And when you have those things, it makes your priorities a lot more clear. It makes your action steps a lot more clear. You understand kind of what needs to happen first that's going to make the biggest changes to the things that you care about. As a start, we start with the core values exercise. What is our practice, meaning and purpose? And I guess that's kind of North star as far as where you want to go, but I really would do that exercise because it's going to get everybody speaking the same language. It's going to get everybody talking about where they want to go and what they care about, and once I have my core values, how do you eat an elephant?

Dr. Andy Roark:
The answer is one bite at a time. I would start to pick my priorities of what are we going to tackle first? And then I would just start to chip away at the problem, and I love it's a truthful reality, it's backed up by research, but I love the truth that we as human beings tend to overestimate what we can accomplish in a year and underestimate what we can accomplish in 10 years. It's just know that this is going to feel frustrating as you start to work because it's going to take a lot longer than you think it will, but if you stay at it, in five years, you are not going to believe where you are and how far you've come.

Stephaine Goss:
Yeah, I like that and I agree with you about the North star piece of it and so to help get to that point and to get to the point where you could start to look at core values in some of the things there that are cultural and that require some experience to help set up and facilitate and figure out where do you even start with that? For me, I would start with a brainstorm and kind of a brain dump, and whether you do it on paper or you do it in your head, I would ask our listener or our writer and anybody else who's in this situation to think about what actually is bothering you? What is frustrating about your practice and make a list and write it all down and be as specific as you can.

Stephaine Goss:
Is it how the team is treating each other? Is it that people are getting let go, and you don't know why? Until you pinpoint what is actually bothering you and what's bothering the rest of the team, I think it will be very hard to figure out what that North star is. So that step number one for me is doing that brain dump and trying to actually get it all out and figure that piece out of it because the first piece for me I think falls between that brain dump, which is a personal thing and you can do on your own, right? And the North star, which is going to have to involve the rest of your team. If you're talking about core values in figuring out who you are as a group, there's a step in between there for me for this person, which is something that anybody on the team could do.

Stephaine Goss:
And so our writer said, “Look, we have some challenges with the team, gossiping, feeling like there's tension amongst ourselves, and bickering.” And this is where you don't have to be the manager. You don't have to be a senior technician. Any member of the team could have the daring and the bravery to say, even if it's to one other person, “Hey, I feel like we have been really stressed out. We've been picking at each other lately, validate the scenery and find out do they see it the same way? Are you seeing this in your head one way and everybody else is seeing it differently?” And so for me, it would start with what can I do as a team member in this position and where I'm going with that is trying to figure out why it's happening.

Stephaine Goss:
Because one of the most powerful tools that any member of the team can put in their toolbox is having a set of rules that you guys as a team agree to play by, and that I don't mean rules like what are your policies and procedures and how do people get disciplined for things? What I mean is we're all human beings, we're going to show up at this place and we're going to work together. How do we show up for each other? Do we tolerate talking about each other behind each other's backs? Is that a cultural standard that we have set, and if it is and you want to change it, take someone being brave and speaking up and saying, “Hey, I think that this is a problem.” Right? And that's a really scary place to be because you run the risk that you stand up and you be brave and you say it and no one else backs you up.

Stephaine Goss:
But I pretty much could guarantee you that if you're feeling the way that our writer is feeling, there's probably somebody else on your team who's feeling the same way too, and so it's about taking that step for me, it's about starting with doing some sort of brain work and self work to figure out what is actually bothering you so that you can kind of figure out your plan of attack, and then as far as the cultural stuff goes, I think you're spot on Andy and I would say to this team, they need some work figuring out where to set up their culture and a good in between step for me that doesn't require it coming from a leader is the ability to say, “Hey, I feel like maybe we've been having some gossiping and it doesn't make me feel good. I don't like getting talked about and I don't like talking about other people. Would you guys all be willing to agree that we're not going to talk about each other behind each other's backs?”

Stephaine Goss:
And then say, “Okay, we're going to agree to this.” And I love writing it down and capturing it and putting it up on the wall. It could be as simple as writing it on your board in the treatment board. Maybe it starts with one rule. Maybe it starts with 10, it's different for every team, but being able to say like, “How are we going to show up? How are we going to treat each other at work?” That for me is a place to start with the cultural issues if this team has never done any cultural work before.

Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I agree. I like that a lot. I think you're right on it. So I think it's funny. I like your approach better than mine. My thought was…

Stephaine Goss:
Wait, let me revel in that for a second.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I like yours better than mine. I would abandon my plan to do your plan. So I was about to start talking about priorities and how we set priorities of the things that we change first, okay? And so we talk about the North star, we talk about the team core values and then I was like, “All right, then we're going to set priorities.” But I really like where you were is if you set the North star and you set the team values and you include the team in those values, then the next smartest thing is not for me as a leader or a leadership team to start hacking away on things. It's to go to the team and say, “What about this really bothers you guys? What changes would you like to make? How do you guys feel? What would you like to do?”

Dr. Andy Roark:
And you are always better off to do what the team wants to do as far as making cultural changes because that is where their energy is. The hardest part of making changes as a leader is getting the team energized and bought in and motivated to make those changes, and so the smartest thing, especially when you've got a list of 50 things that you could do, the smartest thing is to say to the team, “What do you guys want to do?” Because that is going to require less management, less motivation, less coaxing, less following up, less holding people accountable than anything else. And so that's why I say I like your idea better than mine. I missed that trick there in the setup. I'm really glad you said that.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So the first thing I do is take that list and go to the team and say, “How do you guys feel about this? We're going to focus on one or two things, what would you guys like those things to be?” And then let them do it. At some point, you're going to have to start driving the bus and making decisions yourself about what you want to fix, and when you do that, my sort of shortened, dirty, priority sitting exercise is to say, “Okay, you're looking at these things that you don't like or things you want to fix and you don't know where to start.” The worst thing you can do is not pick something, it's to try to hack away at everything, you'll always feel overwhelmed, you'll always feel like you're failing. It's just too big. You have got to pick a small thing and do it and then pick the next thing and do it, and that's why I said the thing about we overestimate what we can do in a year, underestimate 10 years. You've got to start walking.

Dr. Andy Roark:
You can't stand in the parking lot with Bandit, looking at 15 different trail heads and not deciding where you're going to go. Pick one and walk, and so that quick dirty way is what causes you the most pain, which means what is the thing that is triggering you, that's making you angry, that is causing the most fallout with the pet owners. What is the biggest pain point that you have? Number two, what is the greatest frequency that you have? What is the one that is bothering you every other day, every other day we have a client complaining that they can't get on the schedule. I'd say, “Well, that sounds like a frequency driven issue that we should prioritize.” And the last thing is what can be one and done meaning what is a thing that we can do, and then it's done and everything else benefits from knocking that thing off the list.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So for example, let's say that you have this big list of things that are causing problems, and one of them is the printer is broken and I'm like, “Oh, that's a thing that we can fix today and then the ability to print will help us get everything else done.” And so go fix the printer today. It's low hanging fruit, it's visible, get it done and then print to your heart's content and that will help you get other things done. So those are my things, and again, there's not one that's like, “Oh, take pain over frequency or one and done over the other things.” I think for me, my mindset is if this is a Tetris game, what is the annoying piece that is blocking up all the other pieces?

Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm going after those first and then I'm either going to go after what is causing me the most pain or what is happening again and again, and if I could just get it fixed, then that pain would go away and right now, it seems like every time I turn around, I'm dealing with this issue, and so I don't think there's a right answer. I think it very much depends on the circumstances, but I would start using those criteria to pick things off of your list, work on one thing at a time. If you fix one problem a month, you're like, “That takes forever.” It's like, “No, it doesn't.” In 10 months, if you fix 10 cultural problems, you have done an amazing turnaround.

Stephaine Goss:
Yes and I think too, the writer asked, look, I recognize I'm not the boss, I'm not the owner, I'm not the manager, but I feel like they would be open to feedback or suggestions. Lean into that. Have the conversation with them and just saying, “Hey, I've been thinking about this and this is what this is what's really bothering me and I just really would like to know how you guys feel about it because I'm not the leader and this is bothering me. So I can't imagine how you must be feeling about it.” And see if they bite. See if they see if they give you anything. See if they're willing to help you because even if, look, this could turn into a full-time job for you if you let it. Sometimes this is how people become. This is sometimes how people become managers because they can't keep their mouth shut, and that is the story of how Stephanie Goss became a manager because I asked the questions, right?

Stephaine Goss:
And yeah, there's a longer story to it, but this could become a full-time job for you writer if you want to and it also could just be you've been at this practice for five plus years. Lean into the relationship you have with these people and just say, “Hey, this is stressing me out. I've been thinking about this a lot and I wanted to know how you guys feel about it and help them figure it out.” Because maybe it's just that they need a push. Maybe they need to just hear. I can't tell you how many times in my career as a manager, I had a team member who I had a relationship with who I valued their opinion, and I respected them, asked me a question that turned on the light bulb or was eye opening of like I knew that it was bothering me, but I didn't realize it was bothering everybody else.

Stephaine Goss:
And that was all of the motivation I needed as the leader to jump into the deep end and say, “I'm going to work on this, I'm going to tackle it. I'm going to fix it.” And so it doesn't have to be you learning the skills to do all of the things that you just talked about, Andy because I think that could be really daunting too, right? Like if you don't have any of that experience, how could I learn about priorities setting? How could I learn about how to talk about vision and mission and core values with people? That can be really intimidating. It could be as simple as giving somebody the push to figure that out on their own. If you are the writer and you're like, that this is something I'd be interested in learning more about, there's also nothing wrong with educating yourself.

Stephaine Goss:
And this is the last piece of advice I was going to say or suggestion would be this sounds like great potential where if you are a floor leader or you are a middle level leader in your practice and you have an interest in continuing your own development, this is a great time to find a mentor. Find somebody who is an experienced practice manager or a hospital administrator who has a different job than your practices, office manager, or homegrown manager who doesn't have any training and learn about their experience, learn about their skill sets and figure out how to bridge that gap and that education and that learning process is not a quick one. So it's not the first place where I would start, but it certainly would be an opportunity for you to learn more and connect with your peers and just soak it all up and because you can learn so much, and really quickly I think.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I completely agree. All right, I think there's been a wildly big beastly question to get our arms around, but we did it and so yep. So there we go. Guys, that's what I got for you. I think that's sort of where I am. I hope that we gave people good things to think about and didn't muddy the waters too much as this was a big unwieldy, tentacle beast that's in between us and our North star. How hard is that to follow?

Stephaine Goss:
I think it comes back to it takes a little bit of positivity. Just to start with some good thoughts and say, “I don't like this. This feels negative and feels not good to me and this is how I can be more positive about it.” And if that's you dealing with it, if it's that asking somebody else to deal with it, but figuring out what exactly is really bothering you and what feels the most important because you're not wrong, Andy. It is beastly and there's multiple things happening, and so I think figuring out where do you start is the heart of it. So this was fun.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Awesome. Cool. Thanks guys, everybody take care of yourselves.

Stephaine Goss:
Have a great week everybody.

Stephaine Goss:
Hey friends, have you been over to the website lately to check out all the fun and exciting things that are coming from the Uncharted Veterinary team? If not, you should stop right now and head over there because we have got some awesome stuff coming late summer and into the fall and winter and I want you to be there with us. We have our Get Shit Done Conference coming in the fall that is happening in October before that, we've got a workshop coming in September from my dear friend, Dr. Phil Richmond. He's going to be talking about avoiding toxic teams, how to create psychological safety in our practices. We've got the amazing and wonderful technician, Melissa Entrekin, who is leading a workshop in October about leveraging technicians, making practice less stressful for you, them, and your patients, and all kinds of other fantastic things you are not going to them to miss out on.

Stephaine Goss:
So if you haven't been over there lately, head on over to unchartedvet.com. You can hit forward slash events if you want to go straight to the events page, but that will show you everything that is coming and remember, if you are an Uncharted member, your membership gets you access to all of these workshops that we do on a regular basis for free, and if you are not currently a member, you can check out the membership information because it will save you big bucks throughout the year on accessing all of the workshops, and it scores you access to the conferences when we have them, like Get Shit Done for less money. That's right, get a discount and who doesn't love a good discount.

Stephanie Goss:
Thanks so much for listening guys, we'll see you soon.

Written by Dustin Bays · Categorized: Blog, Podcast · Tagged: boss, lazy, manager, toxic

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