This week on the podcast…
This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss are talking through a mailbag letter from a colleague who joined a new practice that seems FULL. OF. DRAMA! There are cliques, there is standing around, there is setting others up to fail and this doctor is wondering if this is just a lost cause or how they possibly begin to tackle this place and make it a more positive, less dramatic place to work. This was so much fun for Andy and Stephanie to debate through. Let's get into this…
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody, I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted podcast. So, this week on the podcast, Andy and I are tackling a question from the mailbag. We got a letter from someone who joined a new hospital and is on the struggle bus about how much internal drama there is amongst the team. There are cliques. There are technicians and people on the team actively avoiding doing something while waiting for quote-unquote, “The other person to see if they're going to do it. And then they come running to me or to another doctor to complain about how X person didn't do Y task. It makes me want to pull my hair out,” is what the email said. And I can understand that because, oh boy, this does not sound like the kind of place that I would want to work.
And this vet has great intentions and they're like, hey, is this a thing that I can fix? Is this a lost cause? How do I tackle it? We talk about the details and more about their mailbag letter. This one was so much fun, even though it was full of drama. Let's get into it, shall we?
Meg:
And now, the Uncharted podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie “I'm going to start some drama, you don't want no drama” Goss. No drama.
Stephanie Goss:
Drama llama for your mama. How's it going, Andy?
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's good. I don't get to say enough lyrics from My Humps by the Black Eyed Peas. And so, when that came into my head, I was like…
Stephanie Goss:
You were like, “Yes.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
What is that from? Don't start no drama, what's…oh it's My Humps. That's what that is. It's in the dusty, cobwebby corner in the back of my brain lives Fergie, My Humps and Fergalicious. That's where that lives. It's like it's when songs come into your mind and you're like, why is that there? I can't … Of all the things I can't remember. Why is My Humps just, is permanently etched into the walls of my brain?
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, I love it so much.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, good gosh. I have a story for you.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh yeah?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, my God, I have not…Yeah, I have not gotten to tell you this story. All right, so you're going to love this. So I'm at the grocery store with Alison, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we have got a full cart of groceries and we're leaving the store and it's like 10:00am on Saturday morning. So the grocery store is fairly empty.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so, I'm pushing the car and Alison's with me, and it's loaded with groceries. And we go out the sliding doors, and as we go out into the empty parking lot, this lady with her cart gets behind us and she's following us out of the grocery store and out of the sliding glass doors into the parking lot. And I'm just driving my cart right down the middle of the parking lot lane, and she's just walking behind us.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we have the meat in the plastic bag on the bottom shelf, you know what I mean, of the cart down by the ground?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it starts to slip off. And Alison says, hey, wait, we're losing our meat. And so, I said, oh, and I stopped. And when I stopped, Alison went to fix the meat and I heard the shopping cart behind me stop. And so, the woman who was following us through the parking lot stops when we stopped.
Stephanie Goss:
Instead of going around you?
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then Alison went to fix the meat. No. It's an empty parking lot.
Stephanie Goss:
I know. That's what I mean, so instead of going around, why is she following you?
Dr. Andy Roark:
She stopped, she just stopped. And so, I waited a moment and then I turned around and I looked at her and she was standing behind me with her cart, and I kid you not, she rolled her eyes and went, “Ugh,” like that.
Stephanie Goss:
I have so many questions. This is like the people, the time that you were at the beach, who came and sat down right in front of you at the empty.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Exact [inaudible 00:04:00] yes!
Stephanie Goss:
So many questions. A, why was she following you? B, why didn't she just go around you? It's, why, oh, I don't understand people. I don't.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There was a commercial that I saw, it used to come on, I don't remember what it was for anything, but these people were on the escalator and the escalator just stopped halfway up and they just battered down. And they were like, I guess we'll have to wait until be rescued. And it's an escalator. They could just walk…
Stephanie Goss:
Walk right up…
Dr. Andy Roark:
But they're like, who's going to come for us? And that's what I thought of as this woman just stopped and rolled her eyes and grunted. And I got in the car and I said, Allison, should I have pulled over? And she's like, it's an empty parking lot. And we're pushing a shopping cart.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
We weren't even a car.
Stephanie Goss:
It's not like you were walking down the aisles.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No.
Stephanie Goss:
And you stopped in the middle of the aisle where you can't go around people depending on how narrow your aisles are, there's lots of grocery stores where…
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's a solid three acres flat paved surface. And she's standing behind me going, “Ugh”. And rolling her eyes. And I was like, what is this world? And then I thought, I was like, what experience in life has this person had where she's like, now I'm stuck here behind this a-hole. That's great. What am I going to do about this? I have places to be like…
Stephanie Goss:
Oh ma'am, it's a parking lot. Just go right or left. Doesn't matter. Just go around.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So funny.
Stephanie Goss:
Go around.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I was just like, oh man. It's like learned helplessness. I think she was totally on autopilot. But oh man.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my gosh, that's really funny.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I should've waved. I should have waved her.
Stephanie Goss:
Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
I should have waved her on like when you put your other window and just like go, go around. I need to complain to Publix that their carts don't have blinkers that you can put on when you're stopped. So people know just to [inaudible 00:05:58].
Stephanie Goss:
I need a blinker on my Publix cart please.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But as she rolled her eyes and stood behind me, I was like, I can't wait to tell Stephanie Goss about this.
Stephanie Goss:
I have so many questions.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh man. I don't have any answers.
Stephanie Goss:
That's the thing, when things like that happen, don't get me wrong, I am way road ragey and probably way too much for my own good. And my children learned all the expletives very early on, particularly in my car. And a lot of the time where my brain immediately goes to is the questions. Why would they do that? What made her think that she had to follow you? Why not only why did she roll her eyes, what was going on in her head where she was like, oh, this a-hole? Like, but just so many questions.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think that, in all seriousness, so I've been thinking all about this. I think that there's a commentary on society here. I think that so many people have just been habitualized into, we were going out the door and so she…
Stephanie Goss:
We're in a line.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so she just fell in line. But I think that there's some weird part of our brains that pick up on those patterns and do it. And then the stopping like, oh, great, now I'm stuck here.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But it's like people you know in your life who just have a problem and instead of just doing the obvious thing to fix the problem, they're like, I guess I have to wait, or I need to go to a higher authority. They come to you and they're like, we're out of toilet paper in the bathroom. And you're like, did you get toilet paper out of the storeroom? And they're like, no.
Stephanie Goss:
Cool. Could you go do that?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Could you? Oh, okay. And next time you should just feel empowered. You don't even have to come and ask me. You can just go get more toilet paper and put it in the bathroom.
Stephanie Goss:
Don't start about toilet paper because that is the number one thing in the clinic that gives me rage. Hands down, toilet paper rage is worse than road rage because nobody ever knows how to change the freaking roll.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Like the empty tube?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, yes. It'll get used and then the tube will sit there and most of the time they don't even get another roll and place it on top of the role, which would also, the empty tube, which would also piss me off, but would piss me off way less than when the empty tube just sits on the thing and nobody gets any more toilet paper. Because it's always me. Always. Every single clinic that I have ever worked in, it is always me without fail that sits down to pee and there's an empty freaking toilet paper tube on the roll. In fact, the best Christmas present I ever got, it just came up yesterday in my time hop. The best Christmas present I ever got from my entire team. There's two presents that stand out in my mind. Both of them involve toilet paper.
The best Christmas present, though, is one of my assistants…This became a thing. And my team knew how ragey, because without fail, at least once a week I would sit down to pee and it would be empty. And so one of my assistants one year took…you know how you mark the IV bag that when the line was changed last or when the bag was changed last, and you put your initials in the date and time? And one of my assistants changed the toilet paper and then put white tape across it like an IV, and wrote the date and time that she changed and her initials. And she gave me the picture as a Christmas present. And I was like, this is the best Christmas present that I've ever gotten, is someone besides me changing the effing toilet paper in the clinic.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, I just imagined the woman with a shopping cart walking into the stall and seeing the empty thing and just going, “ugh, great”. Yeah, now I have to hold it. And then just standing there until Stephanie Goss comes with toilet paper that she could have gotten…
Stephanie Goss:
To be the toilet paper fairy.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, exactly…
Stephanie Goss:
Anyways…
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay. All right. I just wanted to share that with you.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my god, I love it so much. I love it so much.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I was like, oh people are crazy. I've forgotten about the people at the beach coming and sitting directly in front of me.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's hilarious. All right.
Stephanie Goss:
So there are people in your life who cause drama. And this week's episode is all about drama because we got a great mailbag letter from someone who has joined a clinic and who said, this clinic is all drama. They joined a new hospital and they're struggling with how much drama and conflict there is in the team. So they have a problem with cliques it seems like. And lots of different facets of the team will actively avoid doing something, waiting to see if the quote-unquote “other” person or the other group or whatever will do it. And then when it doesn't happen, come running to, this person is a doctor on their team, come running to the doctors and be like, so-and-so Andy didn't, Andy didn't replace the toilet paper in the bathroom. I caught him because I went in there right after he was in there and it was empty. It's all his fault.
They're doing that kind of nonsense. And this doctor's like, look I literally want to pull my hair out. It is driving me crazy. And they were like, I've tried leading by example. I've tried emphasizing good intent and channeling the Andy and Stephanie like Zen head space. Let's assume good intent. Let's think good thoughts. But this seems to backfire with this crew because they said, the more I do that, the more it seems like they're then trying to prove to me even more why the other person is so bad or does not have good intention.
And they're struggling because this doctor is not a manager. And they said that the management doesn't seem to have a good handle on the situation and doesn't really seem to be doing anything about it. And this doctor is frustrated because they said, look, this is a really good high skilled group of paraprofessional team members, and they could be fantastic if they would just get out of their own way and get out of the drama. And so they were asking, what can I do to help reward them when they do work as a team to be positive, to seek out the good in each other because they really are really high skilled and I want them to be a high functioning team. How do I help do that? Because I'm feeling like I don't know whether this is a lost cause or not.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Oh man. All right. This is a good one. I really like this one. I really like the idea of this question coming from the associate doctor who's like, I'm not their boss, but I have to deal with this. And so what do we do?
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right. Well let's go ahead and start with some head space.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Huh. I have concerns, Stephanie. I have concerns.
Stephanie Goss:
Me too.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I also like the phrasing, I feel that they asked us very reasonable questions that I can answer these questions for sure.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I don't know if it's going to do enough good.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I don't know if it's going to, I can answer your questions. I don't know if it's going to make this situation good enough to make sense.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So headspace perspective, culture comes from the top, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It just does. And there's no way around that. And as we've seen more multi-practice groups and things like that, I think this is the problem of the next generation in vet medicine is we've got bigger and bigger groups of practices together. And there's some, I'm not being anti-corporate, I'm really not. There's some real benefits to corporate medicine and I think you'll continue to see benefits. The downside is that there are also real benefits of having the practice owner whose reputation is on the line being right there shoulder to shoulder with everyone else. You know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so when I think about…Culture comes from the top, and if you don't have someone who's really invested in culture right there on the ground, I think you can have trouble. That said, now that I'm saying it out loud, I also, it's not lost on me that there have been a lot of practice owners who have generated negative.
Stephanie Goss:
I was just…
Dr. Andy Roark:
You just kind of looked at me and didn't immediately respond positively. It dawned on me. I was like, yeah, okay, that's fair.
Stephanie Goss:
I was waiting.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay, that's fair.
Stephanie Goss:
I was waiting for you to hear your thought process play out.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, okay.
Stephanie Goss:
Because what I would say is that equally if they're on the ground and they're not doing anything about it, they're not any better than somebody who is absentee from the day-to-day of the practice. And I think you're not wrong that this is something that we're going to have to, I think deal with, and I don't know that it has to do with the size of the practice, but that there is a lot of drama and there is a lot of toxicity and negativity in veterinary medicine. And your point about it coming from the top, culture being set from the top, is so so true and it matters.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think that was the first thing when I read this as well, is I was like, well, you can absolutely lead from the middle. I am a firm believer in being able to lead from within the team. And at the same time there comes, there is a line where if at the end of the day your boss, whether it's corporate leadership, private practice owner, doesn't matter. Whether the management at the top is not willing to set that culture on down, your hands are kind of tied.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
At some point.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah and that's where I'm trying, that's where I'm sort of trying to go here is. You can absolutely lead from the middle. I agree with you on that. And if management leadership above you is undermining the positive culture that you're trying to build, you're going to lose.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Top-line leadership has a disproportional impact.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it can be super frustrating trying to lead from the middle when management just perpetuates behaviors above you that continue to make this type of drama happen. You know?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Totally.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So yeah. So anyway, I guess that's where I want to start in headspace is just to sort of say, I think that when we have systemic problems with culture that radiate from leadership, the impact that we can make in the middle is limited. It is really almost impossible to revolutionize the culture if leadership's not on board. I think you can make a positive impact. The reason I said at the very beginning, we have concerns. It's because I'm kind of like, I don't know if you can make enough impact to make this be a place that you want to continue to work.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Maybe you can and in some cases you can. And it really depends on how much influence do you have, how much do people listen to you? What is your schedule like? How much can you control your immediate environment? And then also what's your tolerance for drama?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Because it might be that the drama's at an eight and you can help make the drama a six and you're okay with a six.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But if it's at an eight and your tolerance is a three…you might be able to make it a six, but it's still not a three and you're still going to be unhappy.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep. I agree with you. And I think the question for me that I ask myself is what level of control do I have if I'm not the boss? Because I have seen and have been in my very first practice, a role where I took a leadership from the middle position and led from within the team. I was not in a formal leadership position. And there is absolutely environments and situations where you can have and be afforded a good amount of control as a member of the team. And so as a doctor, I would ask this doctor to do some introspective work and look at it and think about how much control do you actually have here?
Because if you are in a position where they're letting you be pretty, you can be pretty empowered even if you're not on top, you might be able to overcome more of that. Like you were saying, more of their lack of jumping in. Maybe it's a situation where they're not directly contributing to the drama, but they're not doing anything about solving it. But if they'll let you take the lead there, that might be a workable situation. So the first head space piece for me is what level really examining for yourself, and this is a totally individual thing based on your situation and your environment and your practice, what level of control do you actually have when you're not the positional boss?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. This is, one way or another in the end, this is going to come down to one of our math problems and you're going to pick your poison.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's going to be, I mean, it's just a, it going to be…
Stephanie Goss:
True story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think my advice, just head space looking out at this is I think where you really get screwed is if you think that this is, that there's no options.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There's drama here and I have to figure out how to fix it or else I'm going to live with drama for my whole life. And I see a lot of people who fall into that. It's called “either or” thinking. Either I fix this or I live with it forever. And I go, I got another option for you. Got another option for you. And that's leaving.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's not catastrophic. And I think all of this gets better if you say to yourself, I'm a doctor, I signed a one-year contract. That's what I signed. One year. And I'm going to try, I'm going to do this. I'm going to put up with this garbage for one year and then I'm going to reassess. And I think that that makes everything feel much more manageable and approachable. And so remember, it's a one-year contract. You didn't get married, you took a job to see how it goes. And so my advice is I think it sounds like this person's got good open eyes and clear expectations about what can be done. Let's see what we can do in the next year, and then we're going to reassess. And if this place is still just drama central and it's sucking the life out of you, or it's just a constant headache, then this might not be where you want it to be.
I may have a bit of a, I don't think it's callous, but I don't know. My perspective on this with sort of staff drama and things is this is a leadership problem.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And if you are trying to have a good quiet life and there's drama just going on around you and around you and management is not going to address it, I don't think it's bad if you leave.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Totally.
Dr. Andy Roark:
To me, that's a very understandable position and I think you should reward clinic culture. I want to work at a good positive place to be. And I think that that's, I think that that's very understandable. And so again, all of this is just headspace and trying to get to where we feel like, okay, I feel all right here. I also feel like when you feel like you don't have any other options other than to fix this, the stakes get real high and everything feels really, really important. And that honestly limits your effectiveness, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You're at your most effective when you don't care all that much.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
When you can kind of wait, when you can let things go, you can pick your battles, that's being effective. And so we got to get the stakes down. So that that's kind of what I'm trying to do, get my head straight here and go, let's see where it goes for a year. Ultimately, this might not be salvageable and I need to be okay with that.
Stephanie Goss:
That was my second piece was like, I think you have to get zen before you can tackle it. And so there's two pieces of that. One is putting down the flaming raging sword of justice and not be raging when you go into dealing with it. But the other is what you were just talking about, which is if you are feeling amped up, if you are hacked off at somebody, if you are feeling triggered, you can't be super effective. And so finding that place where it's, you're not trying to tackle this on a day when there's been clique drama in the practice.
It's not so much, I mean it's a part of our safe acronym that we talk about all the time, but really is, are you in a good head space? Are you in that place where you're just like, I don't, this is not bothering me. Even if it's just for today or just for an hour while you're making a move here. I think what's really important is being in that place where it's not mattering so much and you do not have the flaming raging sword of justice in your hands because that will not end well.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
For you.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, no. I agree with that. I think, I'm trying to think if there's anything else from me. Those are the big ones.
Stephanie Goss:
I think the last thing for me from a head space perspective goes along with the other piece of the acronym and it's assuming good intent, but really for me is just remembering, and I've had to remind myself of this in practices that I've been in and just even behavior of myself and the team, is cliques happen when people don't feel safe and/or they're trying to fit in.
And so reminding myself this is happening because people ultimately want to be liked at the end of the day. And so if I can figure out how to shift their perspective from this group versus that group to meeting the need where they do feel safe and they do feel like they fit in because they feel valued and appreciated, I might be able to make a bigger impact with that in mind. And so I think from a head space perspective that that's the last thing for me as a leader, is just to look at assuming good intent, but also asking myself, why is this happening? And scientifically, the science goes behind cliques and how they happen has to do with the fact that people don't feel safe or they're trying to fit in. And I think remembering that when dealing with any mean girl drama has been really helpful for me.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, let's take a break and then we'll come back and my first action step is to dig into why this is happening.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Sound good?
Stephanie Goss:
Sounds great.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Let's do that.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, it's Stephanie, and I'm jumping in here for one quick second because we have a workshop coming up next week that you are not going to want to miss. Our friend and colleague, Maria Pirita CVPM is going to be leading a workshop that is open to the public and to our members on February 15th, 2023. It is at 8:00pm Eastern, 5:00pm Pacific, and it is called Texting it to the Next Level. That's right. Maria is going to be tackling, talking about some of the do's and don'ts when it comes to texting with our clients and really how to take what we all jumped in and started doing full tilt during the pandemic and use it to level up and build a stronger bond with our clients without lengthy phone calls, and hopefully save you and your team some headache and some time and some stress and recoup that time back into your day.
So if this sounds like something you'd be in on, head on over to unchartedvet.com/events. Check it out. If you are a member, you always get in for free, if you're not a member, you can join. It is $99 for this workshop or check out an Uncharted membership because you get all of the workshops that we do in the course of the year at no additional charge with the cost of your membership. So check it out, unchartedvet.com/events. And now, back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, so transitioning from action steps, and I think hopefully we did a pretty good job of getting into a safe head space where we can feel comfortable as we try to see what's possible in moving forward here, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Lower the stakes. I understand that we got options. We're going to give this a try and then see how it goes, and we'll have to make the call after a little while and see what sort of traction we can get. The first action step from me is root cause analysis. What is going on here? And it's easy to say people are, they're setting traps for each other, they're forming cliques, they're trying to catch each other, they're not engaging in getting work done, and instead trying to get other people to do it. I'm like, these all sound like symptoms to me. Symptoms of a problem.
And so the first thing that I would counsel this doctor on is root cause analysis. Why is this happening? Is it because people are unhappy here? Is it because there's a lack of information being shared?
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Between management and staff. Is there some weird positive reinforcement loop that's happening? When I get Stephanie Goss in trouble, do I get patted on the head?
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Does she get punished in a way that benefits me?
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I've seen weird stuff like that in practices where I've seen, I have…I'll tell you one that I've seen in practice. It was if you tattled on other people, then you got to go and sit in the manager's office and talk about the problem at length and have these conversations and feel important because you're in the manager's office talking about practice business and also be off of your feet sitting in a comfortable chair and also off of the floor not having to go into rooms because you are talking to the manager.
And oftentimes what would happen is these were just gossip sessions, but basically people had figured out if I can report some drama, then I get to be a part of…
Stephanie Goss:
Go take a half-hour break.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Gossip.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I get to have, yeah, exactly. I get to have a half an hour break talking about drama stuff and not actually doing the job.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Per se. And there's chocolate in the manager's office. So I'm eating chocolate, talking about Stephanie Goss not doing what she's supposed to do, feeling good about myself, you know what I mean? And other people are actually doing the flea and tick talk in and out of the exam room, you know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I saw that and I was like, and it just happened.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Again, and every day somebody was camped out in the office talking about some drama and management was taking notes, and it was a very intense session.
At the end of the day, I'm like, what'd you do today? And they're like, nothing.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm investigating this drama. But did we audit the inventory? No. Did we call clients back? No. It was, anyway.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It was silly, but I saw that. So anyway, is there something like that going on? Is there some weird positive reinforcement mechanism that I don't know about? Is there a single toxic person? Is this coming from one bully person or one drama person? Is this radiating from a single individual?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And again, maybe not, but a lot of times there's somebody who, I don't know what their thing is. Are we doing all this stuff because somebody needs to be in control? Because they need to feel powerful? Because they need to bend others to their will that they feel insecure and they feel better by calling out other people not doing their jobs. Because if this is a one-person problem, that's a much easier problem than this is systemic across the entire organization.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Yep. Yeah, no. I think that's all makes perfect sense. The other thing that I have experienced is where, like you were saying about the rewards, and I think another really common reward is when there is friction, because we are a conflict-averse group as a whole in veterinary medicine, there can be the unintentional reward of, well, I'm just going to shift around who works with who so that I don't have to deal with it as the leader. I've seen this employed over and over again. And so people are rewarded by getting to be in surgery for the whole day and do surgery instead of having to be with the rest of the group. And it's less drama for everybody else. And so they're getting, the negative is being reinforced.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I think that that, I've seen it manifest in multiple ways. Your manager's office example is another great one. But I think that there's a lot of that, and especially here, it sounds like there is conflict-averse management. And so I think the root cause analysis is super, super important because I think you're going down the right path for sure, in terms of these are symptoms of an underlying cause and you have to figure out what is that actual underlying cause.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. The questions I ask myself again and again are, why is this happening? Why is this happening? Who's benefiting from this happening? And I'm looking for those things because I'm trying to figure out where is this coming from?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Why is it happening? Who's benefiting from it happening? Are there consistent players that seem to be involved again and again and again? And if I can figure out the answers to those questions often I have a much clearer way to approach this. It's rarely everyone is misbehaving and independently they've all decided to tattle on each other or dodge tasks.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
This is coming from somewhere and there's some strange reward mechanism. And sometimes it's, there's a bully. And the bully is nice to people that join his clique. And so people join them to get, and they're, the bully's, dishing out positive reinforcement or withholding negative reinforcement if you go along.
And again, when you see this for the first time, you go, I don't understand why everyone's acting this way. You have to dig a little bit and watch for a little while and ask some questions before you get this pinned down. But that root cause analysis I think is really key. As far as cliques go, especially when you're not the boss, be friendly without joining up. So I can smile, I can be friends, I can be nice, but I'm not playing this game.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And just decide I'm not doing this. There's so many people that I see who are good people, but they desperately want to be liked and they will say, ooh, this is toxic. And then when the opportunity presents itself, they will fall right into the game. It's like this is toxic, but I like being on the good guy side and I like having friends and I like to have things to talk about and everybody wants to talk about this drama. And so I want to be involved. And so I'm going to talk about what is topical and what is topical is drama and gossip. And so just be careful about, be nice to people, just don't play the game. And this is subtle and this is leading from the middle.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think the other piece of it too is that, again, it goes back to being a conflict-averse group, but I've seen repeated time and time again where people aren't necessarily joining in because they know that it's wrong and they don't want to be doing the thing and they're sitting there and letting it happen. And so I think for me, in terms of the action steps after the root cause analysis, the first part, if this is truly making you want to pull your hair out, you've got to shut it down. And that means not only not being a participant in it, but when it is happening, being brave and being the person to say, hey, I wouldn't want to know that you guys were talking about me like that, can you please stop having this conversation? If you have a problem with Andy, you need to go have a conversation with him.
It's shutting it down and not only not engaging in it, but not allowing it to continue. And I don't see that happen anywhere near as often. The default for people is like, I'm not going to join in, but I'm not going to say anything about it either.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
I'm going to continue to sit here and let you guys be gossiping behind me.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. That's, to me, that's the first step towards leadership. Whether you're a positional leader or not.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think the bare minimum that I expect from an employee who's not the boss is to not participate. You know what I mean? I can be okay, I will understand if my young, that assistant, does not stand up to the technician who's 22 years older than her and say, shut a behavior down. I do understand. And I would not hold it against them for not standing up and saying something in that weird power dynamic because I think that's a lot to ask of an inexperienced person or a young person or someone who's just trying to fit in.
However, if that person is a leader, and I will tell you my opinion of that person soars through the roof when they say, I think if you have a problem with Stephanie, you should talk to her about it. And then they walk away. I'm like, that's leadership potential there, buddy. That takes, it takes some guts. It does take some guts.
Stephanie Goss:
It does.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And again, let's be honest, it's what you should say, but as a human being, it's scary to say that. Especially when you don't know what to say or that behavior's not being modeled. God, there's great pressure to go along with other people.
Stephanie Goss:
Well sure. Because we all want, it's the same reason the cliques form. We all want to be liked.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
We all want to fit in. And even if you're not a part of the clique like that, for most people, that is not an exception. You want to be liked. You don't want people to not like you. And so putting yourself out there and going against the crowd is a hard thing to do.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I think that that's amazing. So I would say to that, think about what you're going to say before you say it. I really think that just giving a little bit of thought to what your statement is going to be when this behavior happens because it's going to happen again. You know it's going to happen. I always say, I think people over, I think people say too much. I think that, you know what I mean? They'll say, well, listen, I would not want to be talked about in this way.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Just say, I think if you have a problem with Stephanie Goss, you should go talk to Stephanie Goss about it and then be done.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I think that's all you have to say. And don't make it a big deal and don't make it sound like a big judgey thing, but just say it and then be done. And they can do with that what they will. But that takes real, real, real, it takes some courage if you haven't done it before. But that is kind of what I expect from the leadership level of the doctors.
Stephanie Goss:
The other happy medium because, for me, I hear what you're saying about not expecting it from the team, and I want a culture where every member of my team, including the kennel kid, could look at me or my 22-year senior tech doesn't matter and feel like they have the tools and the confidence. And that we have created a culture where that is acceptable and expected that they would call each other out on it. And recognizing that getting there is hard and is a journey and that is a tool, those are that you have to actually learn.
And so for me, one of the middle-of-the-road, easy starting places for my team when we started on that kind of communication journey was just calling it what it is. So if there's gossiping happening being like, hey, you guys are driving me crazy standing here gossiping, can you take it somewhere else? Then I'm not telling them to stop because that is the action that is really hard for a lot of people. I'm putting on my bossy pants and I'm telling you that you're gossiping and I want you to stop. For some people, the easier path is the path of the least resistance is sometimes it's just calling it out. Hey, you're being really mean and I don't want to hear that. Can you go somewhere else?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Do you think the way that you would handle this changes depending on what kind of support you're getting from leadership in the practice?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, and that's…
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think so.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Absolutely. And I think that's what I'm saying, is recognizing that not everybody is going to either feel empowered enough to say, hey, it sounds like you have a problem with Andy. Why don't you go talk to him? Not everybody's going to feel empowered to do that, and/or they don't feel like they have that tool set. And so I think that the empowerment level matters greatly. And so if you are a person who is less empowered on a structural level within your practice or feels less empowered on a personal level because you feel like that's just, I couldn't have the balls to say it that way.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Find the way that feels good to you and to your point is short and sweet, but calls it what it is. Like, hey, you guys are gossiping and driving me crazy. Go somewhere else.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And just say it and be done and say it with a smile on your face and just say it. But no. So we have a workshop in Uncharted that Dr. Saye Clement did, and she talked about shutting down gossip in her practice and it was very much from the top down and she empowered her people and said, if you see this, I want, this is what I want you to say. And she told everyone that and that really empowered them to say, this sounds like gossip. I'm not going to participate in this.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But it came because she said that from the top. And then she continued to use that messaging again and again and again. I think again, that's a note to practice leadership of you can make these things happen by normalizing this and giving people the power and the words to say…
Stephanie Goss:
Totally.
Dr. Andy Roark:
We're speaking to the doctor here who's not getting that support from above. And I think you have to read the room and say, how loud do I want to beat this drum? How loud do I want to beat this drum? Because at the end of the day too, and these are hard realities, I have to work with these people.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And burning this relationship bridge or turning a clique against me, that's a pain I'm not willing to carry. I don't own this place. I'm not a leader in this place. I want to make this culture better. At the same time, I've got to look out for my ability to do work and enjoy being here, which means I'm probably not going to crusade against the technicians that I rely on to get my work done. I need to figure out how to influence them while still keeping that relationship stable and strong. And you need to look at where you are and make that call.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And I think if that is you, I think one of the next steps that I would have regardless, but especially if you feel like you're in that position. For me, the next action step is being transparent about how I feel about it and how it makes me feel. And so, because really, even if our coworkers drive us crazy, we do all want to be liked. And if I heard from somebody else on my team, hey, when you do this thing it makes me feel sad or it makes me feel hurt, or it makes me feel bad on behalf of this other person. There is something eye-opening about viewing our behavior through someone else's lens.
And so for me then besides if you feel, especially if you feel like you can't shut it down and/or if you're in a position where it's not being supported from the top down, being able to just be transparent and say, hey, I care about all of you and I like you and I like Sarah, and when you stand here and you talk about her, it really makes me feel uncomfortable.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's a great way.
Stephanie Goss:
And just being transparent about how it's making you feel because it does. It is very hard to see ourselves through, to, see our behaviors through someone else's lens. And in my personal experience, it's wildly impactful because even if I knew full well that I was being a Royal Biotch and I was acting naughty, if you told me that, I would a hundred percent feel called out and be like, ooh, maybe I need to tone that down a little bit.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But called out, but called out in a good way. I think this is really important too. I think one of the mistakes that people make in giving feedback is making people feel morally judged.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that does not go well. When I say to you, gossiping is for the weak-minded…
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I wouldn't say that, but…
Stephanie Goss:
The moral judgment.
Dr. Andy Roark:
This is gossiping and I don't participate in activities like that. That makes it sound like, I think most of us would hear that as, I'm better than you and you are doing something that I think is gross and that is going to make a lot of people feel judged and defensive. And you could be a hundred percent right, but I think we always want to be careful about making people feel judged. That's not a behavior that I would take part in as opposed to when you say that it hurts my soul because I like Stephanie Goss and she's my friend, and that's it. That's what it is.
Stephanie Goss:
It gives you feels. Like even if, like I said, even if you are the, because there are people who live for drama. I don't know how because I am not one of those people, but there are people out there who just thrive on drama. But even those people, when they hear that, it's like, ooh, even if it's just for a split second. And so I think that's the next step for me, is just being transparent about how I feel, how I in fact, how I am impacted by it, how I am affected by it.
You guys, I leave here at the end of the day and I'm just super stressed out because it just seems like we're picking at each other all day and I want us to have fun at work. What can we do to have more fun? That is leading from the middle and addressing it without being like, we're going to call a team meeting because everybody's acting like a-holes and we need to change it. Sometimes that is the thing that needs to happen. But if you're not in that position where you can do that, being able to lead from the middle and just say, hey, look, this is how it impacts me, this is how it makes me feel, is very, very powerful thing.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I agree. The part for me that kind of ties into this as well is, and I preach this to associate doctors especially, but I probably should just preach to the whole team, having a healthy anchor in your life outside of the vet practice is just good. It's just good life strategy. Where drama really sweeps people up and breaks them is when your whole life is the vet clinic and all your friends are in the vet clinic and your self-identity is in the vet clinic. And then people come along and they talk trash about you and you're like, this is my whole identity and it's being spread to all of the people that I know and spend time with. And you just get swept up into this and I go, look, you care way too much about this. And it's one of those things, one of the best things about to diffuse drama is not to care all that much.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And yeah, it's a balance to walk, but honestly, I think for most associate vets, check yourself and make sure that your self-identity isn't so tied up in your life at the clinic that you don't have a good solid anchor outside of the clinic. I am a father and a husband and I like to do CrossFit stuff and there's a community that I do. Stop laughing at me, Goss.
Stephanie Goss:
I was wondering when CrossFit was going to come up. It's been a hot minute since we talked about CrossFit.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I had to look at all of my secret nerd hobbies and decide which one I was going to put out. I'm going to go with the most macho of my nerd hobbies. And then you literally straight up laughed.
Stephanie Goss:
A hundred percent, keep going.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So anyway, I am father and a husband, a CrossFitter, and a quilter, and whatever else I might be. And working in the practice is a thing that I do. And I like the people that I work with and they're nice people and I care about them, but they are not my family and they are, they're not my only friends and my identity is more than just who I am to this specific group of people, which protects me and insulates me if and when drama comes up because it's not life defining for me. And I can look at it with a healthy eye and a healthy perspective and navigate it much more clearly. And so I always put that forward of if you don't have a life outside of the practice, you are going to be much more at risk for getting swept up in drama and cliques and gossip and things in the practice.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I've found it's so much easier just to rise above that stuff if you've got other things going on in your life. And so anyway, that's just general life advice on practice.
Stephanie Goss:
And so it sounds like this doctor is doing, they're modeling the behavior that they want, so they're doing check, check box number one. Maybe they're doing number two, which is when they are trying to involve you in it, don't engage them, right? Or whether you're intentionally disengaging them and saying, you're driving me crazy doing this thing. I need you to stop. Or whether you're just unintentionally engaging them and are ignoring it, but not engaging them when they act that way. And then I think the other thing that they already brought up, but continuing to expand on it, is rewarding that good behavior and doing it in the sense that when they do do things that you like rewarding that. You always talk about how we're simple animals. And so praising the behavior when it is positive, when they do work together, which again it sounds like this doctor is doing, but making sure to remember that we've got to keep it, make it specific, make it personal to them.
So say thank you when they do it and tell them why it means a lot to you. And then making it fun. And that's where I would lean into asking them, hey guys, it seems like we've been doing a lot of picking at each other or there's been a lot of, even saying, there's been a lot, seems like to me there's been a lot of drama. There's been a lot of people like mad at each other and just not wanting to work together. I want to make work a fun place. What can we do to change this? And asking them to actively get involved in changing it.
Because ultimately I think where we started this episode is that this may be something that you can't change, but for me to be able to sleep well at the end of the night, I would want to know that I did everything that I possibly could. And so asking and trying to get them engaged. And if you can't, then to me the answer is like, well, this may be a situation I can't solve. And I would feel okay going somewhere else if that was the case.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There's two tools to put in the toolbox for this vet that I would say. We've talked all around getting your head straight and kind of how you sign up or don't sign up and getting your priorities in line, all that sort of things. There're two big ones for me with working with my team. And this is actually just getting through the day, positive reinforcement and giving people reputations. And those are two big ones that I use, which is… So positive reinforcement is when you see someone behaving in the way that you want to see more of, stop what you're doing, look at them directly in their eyes and say, hey, I want you to know that I saw that you did not join up in this conversation and thank you. I really appreciate it and I want you to know that that makes me think very highly of you.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep. I love that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And thank you for not perpetuating drama. And oftentimes that's the fuel that people need to keep going. The truth is participating in the drama, it often gets positively reinforced. Not participating in the drama, it doesn't get positively reinforced. And so just start positively reinforcing people jumping in and doing things. And what that means is if everyone stands around and doesn't do a thing so they can catch somebody else, when someone does do the thing, stop them and say, hey, I saw you do that. I just want to say thank you for jumping in and doing that. And I wanted you to know that I saw it and I appreciate it because I know other people could have done it and they didn't. And so thank you.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that's just call out. The other thing is give people a reputation and they'll live up to it. So if you have someone that you work with who does not participate in those things, you should say, hey, the number one thing that I enjoy about working with you is that you are no drama. You don't gossip about other people, you're nice and kind, and you get things done and you don't talk bad about other people. And I just want to tell you how much I appreciate that and it's just something I admire about you or it's something that I am, it just makes me so happy to get to work with you.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that's it. And once you tell someone that the chances of them turning around the next day and starting to gossip are fairly low.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right? If I give you a reputation and say, Stephanie Goss, this is what you're good at and this is why I love working with you, that tends to hit people pretty hard. And they tend to remember, oh, this is what Andy thinks of me and then they behave in that way at least when I'm around. And that's it.
So those are your two tools. Give people a reputation. Say to them, I really love working with you because you don't participate in these behaviors. I love working with you because you're the first one to jump in and do what needs to be done, not waiting to see who else is going to do it. And that means a lot to me, and I love that you do that. That's giving a reputation and then catching them doing not the thing that's making you crazy and positively reinforcing it. Just call it out. Say specifically, you did this and I think it's awesome and I want you to, I just want to tell you what it meant to me. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's it. Those are your two tools. And I would do that and I would go after it and I'd give it some time. And if you feel like you can get a little orbit around yourself that works, even if drama continues in the hospital, if you end up with three or four tech's assistants that you've given reputations to, that you've positively reinforced their behavior, you might be able to get a little drama free zone around yourself and the people that you work with on the regular. And that might make everything just good enough to keep going and to enjoy your job and to be there, even if drama kind of swirls through the larger practice as a whole. It's worth a try.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Cool. That's all I got.
Stephanie Goss:
This was a fun one. Drama, drama, drama.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No matter what, don't just stop your shopping cart and wait for them to go. Figure out how to get your shopping cart and go around the other person and…
Stephanie Goss:
The moral of the story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And continue on towards the career that you want to have.
Stephanie Goss:
I love it. Take care everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark:
See you guys.
Stephanie Goss:
Well gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can email at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
