What's This Episode About?
This week on the podcast, Dr. Roark and Stephanie tackle a topic from the mailbag. We received an email from Dr. It’s Not the End of the World. They are struggling with a client service representative on the team who seems to catastrophize everything. Every client they speak with seems to be upset about something and yet when the team jumps in to help, the clients seem to simply be in need of help with something. Dr. It’s Not The End of the World wants to know – Isn’t helping clients why we are here? And how do we help this person learn to empathize with clients and de-escalate the client's stress instead of adding their own anxiety to the situation? Let’s get into this…
You can listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Got a question for the mailbag? Submit it here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are tackling a topic from the mailbag. We got an email from Dr. It's Not the End of the World, and they are struggling with this CSR on their team who seems to catastrophize everything. I felt incredibly seen during this episode because you guys, I've been there. I read this email and I thought, oh my God, is Dr. It's Not The End of the World a fly on the wall at my clinic? Because I have been there more than once, in more than one clinic in this situation. And that is what do you do when you have a CSR who seems to catastrophize everything? Every client that they talk to is angry or upset about something and it always seems to end in chaos because other members of the team have to get involved and try and save the day. And when the other team members get involved, they find that these clients are just fine. They seem to just need help with something which leaves Dr. It's Not The End of the World wanting to know isn't helping clients while we're here. And how do we help the person learn to empathize with our clients and deescalate client stress instead of adding their own concerns and anxiety to the situation. Let's get into this.
Speaker 2:
And now, the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me and Stephanie under pressure Goss. Under pressure. [inaudible 00:01:27]
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, that's fantastic. How's it going Andy Roark?
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's great. We're recording this right before Thanksgiving. We just opened up registration for the April Uncharted Veterinary Conference.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. That's right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm geeking out, geeking out. It's our five-year anniversary.
Stephanie Goss:
I know.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's our five years of Uncharted. That's amazing.
Stephanie Goss:
I know. It's funny. We actually, I had to ask the question to our team because I was reading through everything for registration and I read it and it was like, this will be our first live event in three years. And I went, “No way. It's only been two years.” Then I had to look at the calendar and count and think, okay, that this really is going into the third year since we've done the thing and that's… It's crazy. It is crazy. It's also crazy to think we've been doing this together for five years. I remember our very first Uncharted like it was yesterday. It does not seem like it has been five years.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You were an attendee, which is great for me because I didn't have to pay for you to be there. You paid me to be there. We should go back to that. That was excellent.
Stephanie Goss:
That is a very true story. I had just joined the team and it was our first live event and we had so so much fun. I remember how anxious and nervous I was heading to Greenville, having started working with you and Jamie and not having met Jamie yet. I was very nervous about that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It was intimidating. Jamie was intense.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, it was so good though that we had so, so much fun at that first event. And I am just… I cannot wait to see people in person and…
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about how we're going to talk about this conference and get people to recognize how awesome it's going to be. And so I have a plan and I just want to do it with you now. I want to do the first ever episode of Uncharted Playhouse. Uncharted Playhouse, a theatrical representation of what it means to come to uncharted and why [inaudible 00:03:32] to come. And so that's what I want to do.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my God. Shut up. Are you kidding?
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm not kidding. I have a script right here.
Stephanie Goss:
That you've not shared with me.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No. Well, I only have my half of the script.
Stephanie Goss:
Right, okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So you don't have-
Stephanie Goss:
I don't get a script.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm going to stick to my script and I just want you to react in character on your side.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my God.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay. You have to stop laughing so we can do this. Are you ready?
Stephanie Goss:
No. Oh dear God.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to Uncharted Playhouse. Janet, I give so much of myself to the practice. I feel there must be a way for me to work smarter, enjoy practice more, grow our revenue and build an even better workplace culture, but I don't know what it is. Also, I believe my evil twin sister is having an affair with your husband.
Stephanie Goss:
But Dr. Andy, where would you find such a thing?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Do you really think so? Cannot really learn in an act of engaged, collaborative way that is wildly not boring and that will connect me to hundreds of amazing vet business geeks who want to help me succeed?
Stephanie Goss:
None of your sister's husband is leading classes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'll do it. I'll become an uncharted member to register now and I'll go to Greenville, South Carolina, April… Was it 22nd through to 24th? Is that what you just…
Stephanie Goss:
[inaudible 00:05:05].
Dr. Andy Roark:
I didn't… I put a blank in the script that I would fill in later. I'll go check that. [inaudible 00:05:16] 22nd to 24th then?
Stephanie Goss:
21st to the 23rd.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh go to Greenville, South Carolina, April 21st through the 23rd for an Uncharted Vet Conference. Thank you for all you've done for me, Janet. And I'm sorry about your husband.
Stephanie Goss:
My name's not Janet.
Dr. Andy Roark:
End scene. Nailed it.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my God. I wish they could see me right now because I am tomato red, dying laughing.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'll write both half of the script next time. All right, let's get into this [inaudible 00:05:55]
Stephanie Goss:
This is going to be the best Easter egg present that we've ever given Dustin Bays.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I expect high production value on this bit, Dustin.
Stephanie Goss:
Holy guacamole. No, but seriously, we're going to be together in Greenville, South Carolina next week. And it's our first time all being together in ages, and we are going to hang out with practice owners and I cannot wait. I am so excited to see everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Me too. The practice [inaudible 00:06:31] so that's going to be great. It's a-
Stephanie Goss:
And it will pump all of us up for April and I can't wait for that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
We're also running our strategic planning for our team, which will pump you and me up for doing some strategic planning workshops in the first of the year as we do.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I am excited. There is lots of good stuff coming. And if you all think you have seen Stephanie turned up to excitement level 10 on the podcast, you have no idea.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, definitely. I'm looking forward to it. What do we got from… If anyone is still listening, they want us to get into the mailbag and what we're actually doing here.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my gosh. We have a great one from the mailbag. We got an email from Dr. It's Not the End of the World and it is so fantastic. As I read this, I was like, is this person in my clinic? Because this has been my clinic and I felt seen in this email. So it said, “Hi, Stephanie and Andy. We have our CSR who is constantly catastrophizing everything. Every client that this person speaks to seems to be set about something. And as soon as anybody else talks to the client, it becomes clear that they aren't really upset, they just need help with a problem.” And Dr. It's Not the End of the World is asking isn't that why we're here? And so they said they've tried using scripts to help this receptionist, but if a client is asking questions that require the CSR to go off script, catastrophe tends to ensue. And so it resulted almost every call with a client being escalated to the manager or to a doctor. And it's very inefficient, as you can imagine, and extremely disruptive to everybody's workflow.
Stephanie Goss:
And the CSR is very young. This is one of their first jobs. And so Dr. It's Not the End of the World is wondering, maybe this is due to a lack of experience, both in the veterinary world or the real world, being one of their first jobs, but they're wondering how do we help this person empathize with clients and deescalate the clients' stress instead of adding their own anxiety on top of that? Any advice we could give would be appreciated?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Sure. Well, I think we can definitely tackle that. You want to start with some headspace?
Stephanie Goss:
Oh yeah. It's a good place to start.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The headspace is super important here because this behavior can be really frustrating. I've been this person and I've been very frustrated by this person at different times in my life. It's the little boy who cried wolf, right? At some point you got this person and everything is an emergency or everything is bad. And you either end up spending your life with high cortisol levels because this person has always got really bad things and I think this person is really upset, or you end up just putting yourself in a headspace where you're like, I'm going to ignore this person or everything that they say I'm going to radically discount the importance of…
Dr. Andy Roark:
And you and the person notices that because they think this is a big deal and you just don't seem to have time for them. And what happens is you end up in a place where your employee feels unappreciated, unheard, ignored. Because in their mind, remember people don't base their actions on truth. They base their actions on the perception of the truth, what they believe the truth to be. And so you might be able to have some grading system and you look at this and say, objectively, this is big deal. It doesn't matter. Subjectively to that person, it is a big deal and they have something that's a big deal and their boss, their direct supervisor is completely ignoring them and now you are the jerk boss who ignores your people when they're panicking or when they're “in trouble.” And so I have 100% been flummoxed by this very problem of, I can't emotionally continue to go here. And at the same time, if I don't figure out how to fix this, the person is going to feel very frustrated with me for not taking them seriously.
Stephanie Goss:
I feel even more seen right now because I don't know that I have been this person. I thought about that a lot leading into this, but I, 100%, have been the jerk boss trying to help this person getting frustrated by it and ignoring them and tuning them out for a period of time that a 100% resonated with me because I been there, done that. And it is hard.
Stephanie Goss:
And that, I think you put your finger early on the heart of it for me, which was, I didn't understand how someone could live their life so constantly wrapped up in anxiety because every time I talked to this person and looked at this person, it seems like they were having high cortisol levels because everything was stressing them out. And I looked at that and I was so baffled by how someone could live their life in this state. And I struggled with how to put myself in their shoes. We talk about headspace and that's a part of the headspace process for me is like, what could this person be thinking and feeling and trying to understand? And I will tell you guys, I struggled with that because I was like, I don't understand this. I don't understand it at all. It felt black and white to me. And I know to them, it probably felt black and white and it felt like they're on one side of the Grand Canyon and I was on the other and I had no idea how to cross this. And so to your point, Andy, I just ignored it for a really long time. And that did not go so well for me or for my team or that person.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No. No, it doesn't. So there's three general reasons that you get behaviors like this. And like I said, I'm very familiar with this behavior. I have been this person who has gone through periods of catastrophizing. And I have a 100% been the boss or the vet who works with the person who does this. And it has wildly frustrated me because I'm very goal oriented. And I am very much focus on like, let's not get wound up if we don't need to get wound up. And that's sort of almost wellness strategies, I think [inaudible 00:12:51]. And so with someone who's goal oriented when lot of energy and hand waving and excitement and emotion, I don't like that. And it can, especially if I feel it's getting in the way of us getting our work done for the day, I can get very frustrated.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So why does this happen? Generally, in my experience, there's three causes and they're all intertwined so give me a little bit race here as I lay these down, because I know how tightly linked they are.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The number one reason I see this is anxiety. Catastrophizing, catastrophic thinking, negative thinking, those are all cognitive distortions that we see in people who have anxiety or who are manifesting anxiety. Catastrophizing is common. You guys have heard me joke on the podcast about there'll be something, something comes up and happens and I'm always like, I'm going to end up living in the forest by the river, eating salamanders to-
Stephanie Goss:
And the [crosstalk 00:13:46].
Dr. Andy Roark:
… stay alive. Yeah. And I joke about it, but that's catastrophic thinking that we're talking about everything is going to come crashing down. So people with anxiety tend to have catastrophic thinking. So when you see someone and they just constantly live with their cortisol level jacked up to 11, that's probably somebody who's wrestling with anxiety. And is it clinical anxiety? I don't know and neither do you. And I'm not trying to be this person's therapist, but I do recognize it for what it is and say, wow, that's a very anxious person.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The second part is control of the situation. A lot of times what happens is, and I know this is tied to anxiety is we get this catastrophic thinking in scenarios where this person who really wants control, doesn't have control. I don't have control. I did the thing I was supposed to do, and the person did not react the way that I wanted them to, and they want to talk to the doctor. And I do not know what they're going to say to the doctor. And I don't know how the doctor is going to handle this. And all of these things are out of my control. And for some people that loss of control can be very upsetting and can spin them up.
Stephanie Goss:
The tailspin.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Exactly. Right. In this exact way. And the last thing is, and this is the most benign version of this is sometimes it's a process person. It's someone who says I'm trying to do what's right, I want to get the right answer, I want to follow the rules, I want to do what I'm supposed to do. And now we're off the rails and the rules have been broken and I am no longer confident that I am doing what I'm supposed to do and I really don't want to get this wrong.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And again, I know that all three of those things, they're so overlapped and interrelated and everything, but in my mind, those are three really common reasons that I see catastrophic thinking and I see people getting wound up.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Now the reason I'll lay those things down is because pick any of those things. It's anxiety, the loss of control, the process person who's off the rails. Ignoring that person makes all of those worse.
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark:
If this person is having anxiety, because they're like, “I don't know what's going to happen.” And you're like, “I don't have time for this,” and you close the door in their face, you have made this significantly… You know what? I mean, imagine that, the door just slams in Janet's face. Boom. And she was panicked before and now her boss, the person who has organizational power, who can actually help her has literally closed the door in her face. And you just took her up three more notches in her belief that everything is melting down. The same thing with the control. And it's like, “Hey, I don't know what to do. Things are out of control. I'm going to go to my boss and try to get control of the situation through his or her help and they refuse to help me and now I have even less control because the obvious path forward has closed the door in my face and now I have less control than I did before. I don't have access to my boss or my direct supervisor. And this is worse.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then the process person is like, “I don't know what to do. I really desperately want to get the right answer.” And I say, “I don't have time to talk to you.” That is, I am not helping them get the right answer. I am increasing the chances that they are going to “get in trouble,” which is what they're generally really worried about.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So again is super understandable to get frustrated, especially if this is a pattern of behavior. I have a tendency to get frustrated, but I do know, I think discipline, as you get older, is knowing a truth and being able to adhere to it, even though emotionally you don't want to.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I was talking to one of my friends recently and I was like, the definition of maturity in marriage is not saying, “I told you so,” when it is so obvious. Being able to have the thing happen where you're like, “I told you so, [inaudible 00:17:41]” and just being able to not say it. There are people who die of old age having never reached that level of self-discipline where they could just take a pass and not say, “I told you so to their [inaudible 00:17:58].” And it is that exact level of control where you have to look at the person who is melting down and they're throwing their hands up and they're like, “And I told her that we don't do discounts for rescue groups and she said I'm coming in to talk to you. And here we are.” And you look at that person and you do not say, I don't know [inaudible 00:18:24] You look at them and you say, “I hear you and I understand you. Let's talk about what we're going to do to handle this situation.” And man, that is a test of willpower for most of us, I think.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes. 100%. And I think it was for me and I failed repeatedly over and over and over again.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, me too. I have blown this situation. I have a 100% just stomped on. I've cut the red wire many times and had it explode in my face.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh yeah. And it's just not worth it, because then you still have to deal with the thing and now you have another problem of going and trying to put the person back together after you blew them off. You still have to deal with the problem that they are upset about, which is generally a real problem. It's not of the proportion that they're making it, but now I have an HR issue, a person management, a relationship issue that I have to deal with and now it's a much bigger thing than it had to be. And so in the short term, me closing the door and saying, I don't have time for this is just going to make a whole lot more cleanup for me to do later on.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes. Again, I feel painfully seen in this episode because that was me. That's how I… I tried these things, but I totally feel it. And so I think I agree with you. I think I struggle. And I think it'd be interesting, I would love to know how you look at this in the end. And I think our listeners would all look at it differently, which is what's interesting about it. But when I think about those three things, I think about the anxiety, I think about the loss of control and I think about the rule-following. The hardest of those three, for me as a manager to deal with is the rule-following.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Really? That's the hardest one? That's the one you pick?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
[crosstalk 00:20:19] I would pick. Okay. All right, tell me about that.
Stephanie Goss:
That's why I wanted talk about because I think that everybody's responses are going to be very different because I'm very much a compassionate person. I've always been the mom of the group. So somebody who is having anxiety or who I can recognize that they are struggling with the loss of control, I feel like I can cope with those two things in my role as a leader and as a boss. I feel like I can cope with those so much easier than trying to cope with someone who wants to follow the rules. Because what I know as a core truth in the depths of my soul is that veterinary medicine is not black and white. And I can't change that for someone. And that was what I struggled with in this situation in my clinic was how do… I want to help this person? I see the anxiety, I see the loss of control. I see the hurt feelings when I shut the door in their face. I see the giant mess that I'm cleaning up out afterward when I've shut the door in their face, or they don't feel like a boss is available to them and so they're like, I'm just not going to do anything because I don't want to do the wrong thing.
Stephanie Goss:
So then the list of things to do and clean up stacks up and up and up, and then I'm dealing with the giant mess. That was where for me, I froze because I was like, I don't know what to do about this because I can't change the fact that veterinary medicine is not black and white, 100% of the time. I can't change the fact that especially for the front desk, it exists in a world of gray a lot of the time. And that actually was the part that I found the easiest as a CSR is I never had a problem navigating those waters. And so for me, the rule-following and the structure and the ability to freestyle, that is a part that I couldn't relate to. It felt like in any way, shape or form. And so that was the part that I struggled with the most.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. It's very much a mindset, you know what I mean? And you and I are both very creative people. We improvise as you might have heard earlier on when we were goofing off talking about the conference. We improvise. It comes fairly easily to us. That is how you and I are wired and that's not how other people are, are wired. So there's a couple of things that we can do. So one of the first things that I want to try to do when we have a process person, and we hear a lot about this is process people are great. They're amazing. They just want to know what they're supposed to do so that they can do it every time and they can run it smooth as silk and get the right answer. It's like, don't look at that as anything other than a… That's not a flaw, it's a feature.
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yes. Oh yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But it does require some systems. And so I think for a lot of us, what we have to do is get a little bit creative in what our processes are. And you talked recently in a way that I… That's something I really liked. We talked about whenever there was… We talked about staff constantly coming to us to solve problems, and you talked about, at the front desk, you said, “Look, if you can solve this problem for $25, just solve the problem.” That's a process. That is evaluate the situation, present the options and try to make the client happy up to this point. And beyond this point, then elevate, escalate up the chain and you come and talk to me. And that's a very nebulous process, but sometimes that's enough of a process to make that person feel comfortable.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Some processes can have things like evaluate the situation to determine how the client is feeling and then escalate if you feel that this person is not going to be satisfied with the results and you said that is what our process is. So in some cases it is about making more robust processes. When we are surprised again and again, by something, at some point it's not a surprise, it's our business model. Which means if this person is coming to you every week with similar problems or problems that have a similar theme, you should fix this problem. You know what I mean? The definition of a good business is probably solving one problem right after the other, the definition of a bad business is solving the same problem again and again and again.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So it's hard when it's always something different, but if it's always the same thing where this person has a client that they think is upset but is not upset, we need to look at what is going on here and what should the process be and how do we flesh that out with them? So part one is, can I build out processes?
Dr. Andy Roark:
And again, I agree with you. There's so shades of gray, these cannot be lab, bench processes like add a third of a milliliter, add a third of a cup to this and a 100 milliliters of that. It's not that prescriptive. It is more assess the situation, present options to the client, things like that. So can I flesh out these processes, is the first part.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The second part is training and saying, okay, we are consistently getting, whenever there's a client who seems like they might be upset, this CSR is getting very upset and they're coming to me and they think the world is ending. Can I work with them on their phrases and what they say and how they say it? Can we possibly get them some training on dealing with angry clients like perhaps the charming the angry client course, which is available for sale at drandyroark.com. It is me teaching how to handle angry and complaining clients. It's an outstanding resource. Take [inaudible 00:26:32] there. They might benefit from something I don't know, like that. Just put that out there. But is there, in all seriousness, is there-
Stephanie Goss:
That was a perfect plug.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Thank you. I thought that was pretty seamless.
Stephanie Goss:
Perfect. But it is a true story, and I'll tell you why. So Dr. It's Not the End of the World started this process by approaching it, I think from a clear head space. So to go back to thinking about things, I think from the message we got, they said, okay, how can I solve this? Well, maybe if we give them to your point, some training and some structure, and we give them a script that that will solve the problem. So I think that they're thinking in the right direction, it's exactly what I would've done and what I have done. And so I think that is good. I think the part about your plug that is important is that we are dealing with other human beings, we're not dealing with a solution on the lab bench. So I can put two drops in at the exact right moment and the thing will go, according to plan. I can give a client a response that is in my script. They have a 1001 and ways to respond and usually they respond in the 1002 way. It's not the way you're ever expecting. [inaudible 00:27:52] and that's the problem.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I think that Dr. It's Not the End of the World is doing the right thing and heading in the direction to your point of training and focusing on how do I support this person. And we have to remember before we start any systems or training or programs and processes that we are dealing with other human beings and so part of the training has to be addressing the human response, which is the unknown. You never know how they're going to react.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that's how scripts can screw you up. And I'm not saying scripts are bad idea, scripts are a good idea, but often people get the intent of scripts are wrong or providing scripts. If you say, here is exactly what you say in this situation, you are going to cause more panic because they're never going to get set up to say exactly what is there, like the client will phrase their question in a weird way, or they'll ask it with some caveats. And [inaudible 00:28:49] just never going to get a chance to use this script right on the way that it was written.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so scripts are still super valuable for giving people some phrases, some ways to say the messaging, here is the messaging they want to deliver. It's really, what we're trying to do is build systems where the scripts are a guide and they give you some ideas and some words to use and to practice with, but the scripts have to be held loosely. And if we have a hardcore process person or someone who has anxiety, they want to believe the script is exactly what they're supposed do. And that's not what it is, and we just need to be upfront about that from the beginning and say, “Here is the script I want you to read it through a couple of times. And then tomorrow I'm going to ask you some questions as a client, and you're going to work off the script and give me some answers.” And then just sit down with them and ask them the common questions from clients, but ask them in weird ways, because the clients are going to ask in weird ways. And just ask them in weird ways where the script doesn't really work and tell them, take the information on the script, reformulate it, so you can deliver it and deliver this information. And just let them practice how they would say it and how it fits.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so that's generally how I use scripts. And we've used them a number of times in Uncharted for different things. Super helpful for people to know what's important to communicate, but they have to be held loosely or else they cause more headaches than they solve.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think from a headspace perspective, I think the other thing that is important here, which always is is for doctors, it's not the end of the world when you're addressing this. I think some of it is sitting down and looking at where is your own emotional state, because when you address this challenge and you work with this team member, it is important to be calm and safe and not be frustrated and not be angry or triggered because that leads to shut the door, not necessarily in their face, but I'm just going to hide from this person. It leads of that kind of behavior. It leads to the avoidance. It leads to the frustration. It leads to, I will say I was guilty of this. It leads to the venting in the moment. When your work is interrupted for the sixth time in an hour to get asked a question, it leads to you venting to another person on the team. Those things are real. So I think from a headspace perspective, Dr. It's Not the End of the World has done, made some steps forward into solving it, which I think are great, and they're being proactive about it. And I think it's still important to sit back and say, what is the differences?
Stephanie Goss:
And look at those three things. I'm curious to know which of those three, you would struggle with the most, Andy, because I think, like I said, I think it's going to different for everybody and I think Dr. It's Not the End of the World should step back and say, what is it about this that is the most frustrating to them and work a little bit on trying to bridge the divide between themselves, because if you can't try and figure out how to pinpoint what is actually frustrating you, I don't know that you're going to be able to come to a viable solution for how to solve the problem.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I just want to validate what you were just saying is not being triggered. Having this conversation is really important. And I know people listening are like, why does he keep saying that? Why does he bring that up? And it's like, because I see this conversation happening, in frustration, in response to you have interrupted me the fourth time in an hour, and I have had enough of this, and I need to talk to you right now about how you need to take care of your job and stop asking me to do everything. And again, that's terrible wording. That's because you're frustrated and you say that to the person. And if anyone out there is listening and thinks that could never happen, I promise you you're mistaken. That is how the conversation happens, because we're nice people in which when we want to assume the best and we do until we're having a bad day and then this person does this behavior multiple times, and then we just snap and we're like, I've had enough and so now we're going to have this conversation, and that is the bad time to have the conversation. So I see that a lot.
Dr. Andy Roark:
For me, the hardest one, the anxiety controller processes, the hardest is the anxiety part. Because that is a deeply internal struggle that I can't help you with all that much. And I can give you some guidance. I can give you some coaching, and we're going to do that in the back half of this episode. But ultimately, if this is something that a person struggles with, if that's how they're wired, if they're constantly, if they're an anxious person, there is some self work that they're probably going to need to do that is beyond employee coaching that I can do.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so they have to need to see it in themselves. And it's like, I can't change someone. They have to want to change themselves. The need for control, at least we can talk a bit about control and help them create more of an illusion of control that they feel comfortable with. Then the processes, at least we can work on the processes, but if there's just someone who generally believes that things are going to go badly and just spin out of control, I don't know how to tell you that they're not going to go badly and they're not been out of control other than the coaching that we're talking about. I'm just pointing out how this has happened so many times and has never gone out of control. And I just need you to internalize that and believe that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So for me, that type of stuff is always harder when I have someone who has these types of cognitive distortions they do, the catastrophic thinking, the negative thinking, finding the bad in everything. I'm always imagining the worst case scenario. That can be very frustrating to deal with because it's so internally driven and it is hard to give them clear, direct practice oriented feedback on that. That is really something that they have to own and work on themselves.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. That makes sense. Do you want to pause here and then we can dive into when you have a person on your team, who's like this, how do you approach it?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, let's do it.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody. I just want to jump in here for one second, because I want to talk to you guys about someone who has been one of the best gifts that Uncharted has given me, and that is my amazing friend, Jen Galvin. For those of you guys who don't know Jen, she is a practice manager and a practice owner in Arizona, and she is fabulous. We met at the very first Uncharted and I am so thankful that the universe brought her my way because she is smart and she is funny as all get out. She makes me belly laugh and snort laugh every time we are together. And she is kind, and what I love potentially the most about Jen is how passionate she is about her team and about having a great, happy place to work. And she is bringing that attitude to you.
Stephanie Goss:
She is going to be teaching a workshop or leading a workshop in December on Sunday, December 12th, from 4:00 to 6:00 PM, Eastern, 1:00 to 3:00 PM Pacific. She is going to be talking about how It's All Fun and Games, how to play with engage with, and reward your team. She is going to talk about what employee engagement means, but more specifically, what does it mean to you in your practice?
Stephanie Goss:
The group is going to brainstorm and talk about some simple ways to measure engagement within our practices. And then most importantly, what the hell do we actually do with this? When we do measure it? How do we create thing that is actionable and also matters to our individual teams? We're going to brainstorm some ways that we can reward the team so that they feel appreciated in a way that resonates and matters to them. It's going to be a lot of fun. I am super excited to get to be her wingman on this. And I hope that you will come and join us. If you head over to unchartedvet.com/events, you can find the registration page for Its All Fun and Games. I hope to see you guys there. Now back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right. So let's get in the nuts of bolts here. So the number one takeaway from headspace is don't be triggered. So to summarize and expand a little bit what we said on headspace, don't be triggered. Remember to some good intent. This person is wound up because they care. And if they didn't care, they wouldn't be wound up. They would just say, eh, and they wouldn't come. They wouldn't come to you first of all. They don't care. And certainly, if they did come to you, they would just say, “Hey, here's a phone call you need to make.” And they wouldn't tell you that they think this person is upset or frustrated. This person is only chewing their fingernails because they want to do a good job and they want to provide good patient care and they want to be a good employee. And as long as you can put that in your brain and hold onto it, you can have better conversations with them.
Stephanie Goss:
And I would actually suggest, obviously, you don't want to make things up that aren't true. But if this person is having this behavior more often than not, what I found is that they are doing it because they genuinely care about the client experience. And yes, sometimes they are manifesting, upset or irrational thought or anger that is not present when somebody else talks to that client. And I would rather have somebody that is hyper aware of the client experience and the client response to how we are interacting with them than someone who is apathetic and who doesn't care. And so where for myself, where I started the conversation with my team member was saying, thank you and saying, I appreciate that you care deeply for the client experience. That is really important to me and I appreciate that. And because there's an [inaudible 00:38:54]. It's not a but. When you use but-
Dr. Andy Roark:
And don't say but-
Stephanie Goss:
… you're making it wrong.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, but is a [inaudible 00:38:58] word. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
But, there's an [inaudible 00:39:04] and there should be an [inaudible 00:39:05]. And so for me, it was thank you for this [inaudible 00:39:07], and then it was about talking about the impact. When you interrupt the doctor who is in surgery to ask a question because you think a client is angry and it's something that could have waited, here's the impact of that. Here are the responses because a lot of times they are so focused on getting the answer, getting it right, trying to help the client that they cannot see the impact of that action on the rest of the team, on the doctor, who's getting interrupted, on the manager who's on a phone call who's someone I literally… This was what drove me craziest and it was part of what made the divide. I would be on the phone and the person would just stand outside my door, waiting for me to be done because they wanted to help the client. And they had the client on the phone or they had the client at the front desk and they wanted the help so badly. And I could appreciate that and at the same time that had an impact for me. I couldn't focus. I screwed up on phone calls. I had things that came out of my mouth, because I was thinking about the fact that they're literally standing next to me, waiting for me to get on-off the phone.
Stephanie Goss:
So it's okay to give them the [inaudible 00:40:20]. But for me, the place where I would start with this is to look at the behavior and think about what are the positive outcomes of this. When you have someone who is detail oriented on your team, to your point, Andy, that is so important. We need the detail oriented people. We need the people who need a process and protocols because that's how we get those things developed in our practice. This is an opportunity where you can turn pieces of the behavior that Dr. It’s Not the End of the World Is probably feeling because this is how I felt. This drives me absolutely freaking insane and I just want to strangle this person. And yet it became an incredible opportunity for my team to harness that into where can we direct their focus so it's positive? Can we write some scripts? Can we develop some protocols? Can we come up with some black and white, this is where things are falling apart and can we use that to become better? And that is a much healthier place to be and don't get me wrong, I did not jump there immediately. I jumped straight to I'm going to start ignoring this person because they're driving me freaking bonkers.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Oh I mean it's like being a parent trying to go to the bathroom and your kids are waiting outside. And it affects you at a level that doesn't make sense to anyone who hasn't been that first [crosstalk 00:41:41].
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my God, yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I don't know why it affects me so much, but I want to put them in the yard and lock all the doors.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh my God. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But that's it. And that's why said, these often are triggered conversations for the very reason. Okay, so I agree with that. Quick words of advice on this, it is very hard to coach this person in a positive way while the problem that they are stressed out about still persists.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So regardless of the cause of why they're doing this way, if they're waiting on the client and they're trying to serve this client and you are trying to talk to them about why them interrupting you is bad, you are making this worse because they are panicking about the client waiting and now they're panicking more because they have to stand here while you tell them that what they did was not right instead of helping a client.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it is very hard to coach someone who is triggered. It is very hard to coach someone who is panicking. The first thing we have to do is go with the flow and relieve their source of tension. So they're obviously freaked out about something, we are going to deal with it. And once the problem is resolved, they are going to come back down in their stress level to a more reasonable level and now we can talk to them about the process that they use to get there and brainstorm how to go forward. So for example… Well, I'll go into examples in a second. So resolve the initial point of conflict and stress so that this person is in a headspace so that you can coach them. And if you try to coach them before they get out of panic mode, you're wasting your time. So start with that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The second thing is the way that we talk to them is very important. If I have of someone who has panic attacks because they don't want to get it wrong, me talking to them about how they got it wrong, is going to be hard on them. Now that does not mean I'm going to mince words or I'm not going to be truthful to them, I am. Remember clear is kind. Would you rather, if it was you and you were having panic attacks, then would you rather someone act like everything is fine until they've had enough of you and they just lose it on you or would you rather them tell you as you go along, “Hey, this is starting to affect our work relationship or hey, there are some things about what you're doing that I'm having problems with. Can I talk to you about them.” And so try to get to that place. Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So how do we have the conversation without just saying to them, you are messing up, you are causing a problem. You thought you had a problem before when the client was upset, well now the boss is upset and now you got another problem that you're going to respond as you always do, which is [inaudible 00:44:38]. A lot of it's how we say it. And so it is easy to say, “Hey, when you stand outside my door, while I'm on the phone, you are wildly distracting and it makes me extremely angry, like I see red.” And you can say that, or you can say, “Hey. I am not a multitasker and I have to focus on what I'm doing. And so when I'm on the phone and I see you outside, my pea brain has a hard time keeping both of those things in check in doing the work that I need to get done right when you're there.” And I hope that that sounds very different because-
Stephanie Goss:
It does.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… it is very different. And it's not why you say it, it's how you say it. And so the message I'm giving to them is don't stand outside the door and wait for me to get off the phone. The reason is not going to be because you make me insanely angry and I want to-
Stephanie Goss:
Throttle you.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… throttle you. Yeah. The reason is because I can't concentrate on what I'm trying to do when people are waiting for me and that's a personal failing of mine. And so I need your help with that because I can't do it and I need your help.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that's just sprinkling in a little bit of vulnerability. It's the way that we're phrasing it as… It's not a you problem, it's me problem. It's not you, it's me.
Stephanie Goss:
I love that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's exactly where we're going.
Stephanie Goss:
I love that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Same thing with, well, interrupting the doctor in surgery to tell them that the client is angry. It's not about, hey, you really take off the doctor when you do that, it's hey, can you imagine being a doctor who's doing surgery and then someone comes and lets you know that someone's angry at you and how hard that would be. You go, “Ah, yeah. I'm sorry. My bad. I didn't think of that.” And so the reasons that we give about the behaviors and behavior change that we need, it matters. And again, that doesn't mean I'm letting off the hook, that doesn't mean I'm saying things that aren't true. It just means I'm thinking about how to deliver that message.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I approached the situation from a different perspective, but I agree with you the words matter. And so the way that I looked at it was I see the anxiety, I see the loss of control, I see the physical manifestation of that in the nervous behaviors in the tone of voice, in the fact that they are telling the rest of the team how stressed out they are about being at work in the fact that they're cleaning that their stomach hurts because they're so stressed out at work, those things. Say, I am worried about you. This is how I see that this seems to be impacting you. Tell me more about this, because in the moment, I didn't know what to do. I just knew I needed to cast a wide net because I knew that I was frustrated and I knew that I was angry and I was like, I don't know what the hell to do with this because I'm not seeing it that way. And so I just said, this is what I see happening. Tell me more about that. And then I shut up and listened.
Stephanie Goss:
And I asked them for their help in figuring what it was that was actually the struggle for them and where they needed the help. Because like I said, I felt like the anxiety and the control of the situation was something I could support them with and the rule-following was the struggle for me and so I needed to figure out like what is actually triggering them. I know it's triggering me, but what is triggering them as well, to figure out a game plan for it. So I think no matter what, having a conversation is important. So I totally applaud Dr. It's Not the End of the World because their team is like, this is a problem, we recognize this, so we're going to try and solve it. So we've created some scripts. I'm hoping that they also had a conversation with this person. But I would say if they haven't, it's a good place to start and just say, Hey, this is, to your point, either this is how I am struggling and I need your help and bridge the gap with the ask of help or I see this and I'm worried about you. How can we…
Stephanie Goss:
But it is clear as kind and you have to have a conversation. You can't just ignore it and hope that giving them scripts, hope that training, hope that helping them is going to solve the problem. I think you have to be honest and you have to be empathetic and you have to be able to ask them, I see this as a struggle, tell me how I can help you. Even if they don't know, talking about it is going to help. You have to start the conversation somewhere.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. One of the things that I think is make or break in these conversations that really is a leadership skill is identifying the pattern of behavior that you are seeing and that you're trying to manage. Because if you just get upset every time this person does something where they're panicking, it can very much be a whack-a-mole exercise where every day they're upset about something different. And it's really hard-
Stephanie Goss:
[crosstalk 00:49:37].
Dr. Andy Roark:
… to coach someone when every day… Yeah. It was really hard to coach someone when everything they do is wrong. That's a terrible thing to try. You can't coach someone. And the other thing is they are going to believe that they're destined to fail because how do you fix everything about yourself? The way out of this trap is to identify the pattern of behavior. Hey, when the protocols that we have don't cover the situation, you react very strongly. That's a single problem. That's just one problem. When the protocols don't cover, what happens? You have a strong, emotional reaction and we need to work on that. That's just one problem. And there's a million great things about you and just one problem, that's not a big deal. Have 99 good things and one single problem, which is very different than Jay-Z. Much, much more manageable, I think.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh.
Stephanie Goss:
This episode is off the [inaudible 00:50:36]
Dr. Andy Roark:
Watching you not respond to that and then just see the pain on your face, is it sunk in, that made it all worth it. All right. One problem, the only way you can [inaudible 00:50:48] a one problem is if you spot the pattern and so you got to find the pattern. The person who goes and interrupts the doctor because the angry client is on the phone and the person who stands right outside your desk and drives you nuts because there's an angry client on the phone, they've only got one problem. They don't know what to do when they have an angry client on the phone. And honestly, guys, the answer is you need to take a message and tell them that we will call them right back and that you are going to take this directly to the practice manager and get them some answers. And we need to work on the wording so that you can get off the phone and get the resources that you need so this person can get taken care of.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And again, I'm not saying that that's exactly the policy you should choose, but if this is a recurrent problem of the person who is needed is not available and the front desk is just leaving the client on the phone, I would argue strongly. That is a worse scenario than coming up with wording to say, I have this. The doctor is in surgery right now and I am going to relay this to him or her as soon as they are done. You can expect a call from our practice manager probably the next few hours.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, and I think part of it for me in solution mode here is you have to figure out a way to bring objectivity to the conversation because Dr. It’s Not the End of the World said it seems when anybody else talks to the clients, they're not actually upset. And so that tells me when that is happening on repeat that something is happening for this CSR that may or may not be true for other people.
Stephanie Goss:
The only way to figure that out is to bring in a measure of objectivity into it. And so if you are not recording phone calls at your practice, that would be a very great way to start, because let me tell you, nothing is better than after the fact, being able to take a recording and sit down with your CSR and listen to it and say, tell me what you here. Try and figure out what are they hearing that makes them think that this client is angry because if Janet picks up the phone and her impression of this situation is that this client is totally hacked off and a manager needs to get on the phone right now, and I get on the phone and I think this client just had a question and their tone of voice maybe was really to the point and like, let's get it done but I didn't… That being able to see that and look at that objectively comes from hearing it, talking about it together, looking at it and analyzing it.
Stephanie Goss:
And this is the part of our practice to your point, Andy, that so many people dread. It's like the idea of role playing people don't want to feel silly or feel they're listening to themselves. I had a really hard time with this. I hate the sound of my voice. Listening to recordings is hard. And when I was in practice, watching myself on video, working with clients, listening to phone calls was a painful process for me. And I will tell you, I had significant growth in my customer service skills by being able to listen to it and talk about what other people were seeing and hearing in a way that was objective and not in the moment pressure. Because to your point in that moment, if this CSR picks up the phone and thinks that this client is upset, you're not going to be able to coach them. But being able to look at it after the fact and not look at it punitively like this one went bad, but just let's listen to this. What is different about this call than the last one we listened to? Having a measure of objectivity, there is hugely helpful.
Stephanie Goss:
So if you're not investing in something like that for your practice, I would absolutely tell you that that is one of the best things that I ever did as a manager for my front desk team was the ability to listen to phone calls and to work on it from a coaching perspective and get better as a team.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I agree. So bringing us all back around into a nice little bundle, the big things and the action steps that we talked about, the first thing you got to do is relieve the tension. We can't coach our way out of this while this person is still panicking about the thing they're panicking about. So suck it up, get the problem fixed before we turn to the coaching. And then now that things are calm again, now that it's the day after, use the feedback model, hey, can we talk about that client that called in yesterday afternoon and how that went? And now we're having a conversation about that without the pressure of the incident. Look for patterns because I want to present them with a problem that is a simple problem. I don't want to present them with nine problems. Here's nine different things that you did that were really infuriating. That's too much. They feel like, “Oh man, I'm failing. There's so many things I'm doing badly.” No, you're doing one thing. There's one thing that tends to undermine you. And then maybe there's other smaller things, but we're only going to address the one thing now because it's the one that's the elephant in the room.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So what is the pattern? What are we really talking about here? And then go into protocols. Are there protocols that can support this person where I can give them guidance so that they know what to do on their own, and they feel comfortable making that decision? Beyond that, we're into training and coaching, which is what Stephanie's talking about with, “Hey, let's listen to some phone calls.” Let's go back and talk about how we're going to handle these situations.
Dr. Andy Roark:
What are we do when someone calls the front desk and they're really angry? Do we put them on hold and stand outside the practice manager's office? Is that our plan? It is bad plan. Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Is that [inaudible 00:56:19]?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think we need a new plan. And let's not point fingers. Let's just come up with a new plan that people are on board with and that they feel comfortable with. And then let's practice saying the words that communicate that plan to the client so that people are comfortable saying those things.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then training rolls into coaching, which is, “Hey, can we talk about how things went yesterday?” When these scenarios come up, what are our options for handling them? Aside from coming directly to me, what other options do you think you have in this scenario? And there's some coaching things like that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
One of the other things that I have found to be very helpful for people who have the anxiety piece of this or who catastrophize and they seem quite nervous, a lot of times convincing those people that they're good at this and they have done this many times before and it has always turned out to be just fine, that has been a powerful tool. And so it's a lot of talking about how things went after they're over. “Hey, I wanted to circle back up with you about the client yesterday that you were concerned about. We had a really nice conversation. They were a bit frustrated at the beginning. We worked through it with them. They seemed just fine. I just wanted to give you a heads up.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
The reason I do that is because it's easy to not talk about those things. And of course we don't like to talk about the angry client stuff. The problem is that this person, they get this phone call, they have this emotional reaction, they hand the call away to the practice manager or the practice owner or the doctor and then there's no resolution for that situation for them. They never realized this was fine because they don't know because the manager went in their office and closed the door. Maybe the manager went home and cried all night and it was really honestly, as horrible as imagine it was. Of course it wasn't, but they don't know that. And so closing that loop to be like, “Hey, this was fine. You did a good job of communicating what to expect. You set them up. I think that you accurately interpreted where they were. I think that's great.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And the same thing of coming back and being like, “Hey, I talked to this person. Just so you know, they really were not upset. It really was not that big a deal.” How in the world is the person ever going to learn, hey, maybe I over interpreted this person's frustration level unless they come back and hear again and again, hey, it wasn't that they were not that upset. And hopefully the person can start to say, oh, okay, I'm having these experiences. They seem upset to me. And then I'm hearing that they're not upset overall. Ultimately, how many times does it have to happen before the CSR realizes, man maybe they're not that upset when they talk to me or maybe it's going to go differently when I talk to the manager or, hey, I might give the manager or the doctor a heads up. Hey, I think this person may be a bit frustrated just so they can be aware. But I'm not go going to chew my fingernails off because this is going to be terrible because it's probably not going to be terrible. And I know that because a 100 times before it has happened and has not been terrible.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think that's so great. And I think the last piece from the email, which I think is important is that Dr. It’s Not the End of the World asked isn't helping clients with problems, why we're here. And they're concerned that the CSR is young and they don't have real world experience.
Stephanie Goss:
And so for me, part of the training process has to be what does customer service look like in your practice? Because we hire people and we think that they should know how to answer the phone and they should know, and be able to interpret when someone is angry or when they're not, or what the protocol or process to your point, Andy. But the reality is you can have somebody… I had customer service experience coming into my job in a vet hospital, lots of it. But that doesn't mean that I knew what customer service meant to my practice owners. And until I understood what that meant to them, I was being set up to fail.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I think where it has to start is what does that look like? And then developing systems and protocols where, especially, if you have someone who look the veterinary job, the veterinary CSR job is I have worked every job in the hospital other than being a veterinarian. It is the hardest job in the hospital. And I will tell you that if we don't set them up for success and we don't teach them what to expect, they will fail and they will fail miserably. And so we need to own that and we need to look at our processes and protocols and figure out how do we help them feel supported so that we don't throw somebody who has no real job experience or minimal job experience in the deep end, at the front desk and let them sink or swim. That's just a bad plan.
Stephanie Goss:
And I'm not saying that's what Dr. It’s Not the End of the World did. I know this person, and I know that that's not the case, but I would say that we need to think about how do we better support our team and ask smarter questions. And so stating the obvious saying, hey, we want clients to feel like they can ask us for help. And so when they call with a concern or question or whatever, I want everybody to look at it through the lens of, they're just asking for help. And if we can do that, maybe we can have a better head space collectively when we deal with clients, things like that that matter. And we skip that part of the process a lot.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I think thinking about what does client service look like here? How do we approach it? And then developing the systems and protocol so that they have a buddy, so that someone else can objectively listen to those calls with them, so that there is a process to help them figure out how to live a little bit more in the gray, because we need people who can see that at the front desk.
Stephanie Goss:
And maybe this person will never be that, but maybe they could exist just fine with rules and black and white processes if there's a person who can handle the gray sitting right there at the front desk for 90% of their shift. And maybe it's as simple as saying, for me, one of the solutions we came up with was to say, okay, we're going to tell clients, I will get back to you. I need to get some help. I need somebody else to take a look at this chart. Whatever the situation was, one of us will get back to you.
Stephanie Goss:
And instead of interrupting, they started writing down the list of the things. And then at every two hours, someone either was at the front desk, or I would pop up there and say, “Tell me, what's on your list.” And in five minutes, we would run through the 10 things that had come up that they felt they needed help with. And I could answer them in five or 10 minutes, rapid fire, versus getting interrupted every 10 minutes for two hours.
Stephanie Goss:
So it's about figuring out what is going to work for you, what is going to work for that person, and how do you put those systems and processes into place?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Outstanding. I love it. Well, thanks for doing this episode with me.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. This is fun. I hope this is helpful. I can't wait for more Uncharted Playhouse episode.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Uncharted Playhouse episode.
Stephanie Goss:
Next time I'll actually know what's happening.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Don't make promises that you don't have any control over.
Stephanie Goss:
That is the hashtag truth. Have a great week everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark:
See you everybody. Bye.
Stephanie Goss:
Well that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast. And as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find the mailbag at the website. The address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag, or you can email us podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.
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