What's This Episode About?
This week on the podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss are tackling a mailbag letter from Dr. The Earth Is Round. This veterinarian is frustrated with a few clients that do not seem to believe in science. Dr. The Earth Is Round is wondering “What do I do when they are angry about wearing a mask during a pandemic spike, don’t think vaccines actually work, and only want to do what is “natural” (like giving antlers to chew for dental health)? How do you talk to these people?” Let’s get into this…
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, Andy and I are answering a great question that came in through the mailbag from Dr. The earth is round. They are struggling with what to do when they have clients who just don't seem to believe in science. Now, I know that the world changed and shifted under our feet exponentially for all of us in the last few years, and yet this is not a new problem. I think all of us think immediately, at least I did when I read this question of like, “Oh, what do we do when clients don't want to wear masks?” Right. Because we're in the middle of a pandemic spike when they won't our protocols for keeping the team safe during the pandemic.
Stephanie Goss:
And that is true, and yet the more Andy and I talked about this, the more that I realized that we've always had clients who don't necessarily seem to believe in our science or our medicine, who doubt when we make recommendations about vaccines or flea preventatives or heartworm meds, things like that. And so the question from the Dr. The earth is round, was really simple. It was, how do you talk to this kind of client? I thought it was a great one and Andy and I really had fun. So let's get into this one, shall we?
Speaker 2:
And now the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back as me, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie “I'm a believer” Goss.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, I like that one too. That's a good one.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
How's it going, Andy?
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's good. It's good. I can't complain too much. I think homeschool is finally going to be over and my kids are going to go back to actual school in the very near future. So that's good.
Stephanie Goss:
Yay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
We'll see, unless we get freezing rain tonight, which we could.
Stephanie Goss:
A possibility.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then we'll be just stuck again. But, no, I'm good. I cannot complain looking forward to a lot of exciting stuff we have coming up. You and I are kicking off our strategic planning course as we record this, next week is the first of four.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Where we're going to be talking about setting up a strategic planning meeting and how to run a meeting like that. And then we've got three more sessions after that, if people want to check it out, you can head over to unchartedvet.com and learn about those sessions and jump in on them.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. The cool part is when this comes out we'll be halfway through it, but the way we set up with this workshops this year is that they're individual ones. So we will have a couple that are still left after this episode comes out, and if you're interested, you can sign up for them as one off versus having to do the whole series. And if you are Uncharted members who are listening to this, you can always access the copies in the knowledge library after the fact so you can watch the sessions on demand.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The ones that should be left are evaluating your employees and that's number three, so that'll be the one coming up when this episode comes out and then dashboards, setting metrics to drive your practice. So those are the two that will still be available if you want to grab them.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So yeah, but that's not what we got in here to talk about.
Stephanie Goss:
No, we've got a good one today and it's so funny because we got an email and when I read it, I was like, “Oh, this makes perfect sense to me because the whole world is tired and frustrated.” And we had the Dr. The earth is round, sent us an email and is struggling because they have some clients who just do not seem to believe in science. And they are really struggling with what to do with people and they gave us some great examples. “What do I do when clients are angry that I ask them to wear a mask during a significant local pandemic strike? What do I do with the clients who tell me point blank, that they don't think vaccines work? What do I do when we have clients who only want to do things that are “natural” like you giving pets or dogs, antlers to chew on for their dental health versus the dental recommendations that I'm actually giving?”
Stephanie Goss:
They are at this point where they feel like, “I don't know what to do with these people. I want to talk to them. I want to try and engage with them, and I don't know how.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And I just thought this was so great because I think this is a problem that all of us faced at some point or another in terms of interacting with clients, because this is not a new problem. Right. I think back to when I very first started in veterinary medicine and there's always been those clients who are like, “I don't believe in using chemicals on my pet, so I won't flea control.” Right. It's been around the whole time, and I think that there's a lot of that happening right now, because we have a lot of people who are dealing with people who are seemingly disbelievers about science when it comes to the pandemic and the current state of the world. And so I think there's a lot of people struggling with this who are tired and are like, “I don't even know what to say to those people.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I agree. This is tough, but it's not going away. And so we should accept that it is what it is and there are a number of things that we can do about it. And so I'm super glad that we got this question. I am super ready to break this apart and talk about what our options are and how do we address it. I think we have start first with why is it happening?
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I think you did a really good job of talking about the fact that this is not new. I think the volume has been turned up significantly. I think there're things that are making this more in your face than it has ever been before, but it's not new. There's actually, I saw some research this morning that talks about it's been the last 40 years that people have been increasingly persuaded by statements like, I believe, and I think, and I feel, and decreasingly persuaded by phrases like, our results indicate, and we conclude.
Stephanie Goss:
Got it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think it's just fascinating, but it's generally this idea of how I feel in my emotional response has gained value in people's minds and what the data shows has lost value. And the researchers who puts on tied it together with a number of signals of increasing individualism in our society. Meaning as people have gotten more and more individualistic and focused on themselves and their experiences, what the data show means less than what they believe or what they see with their eyes or what they hear. And so this is a 40 year trend. So I think that's the first thing is just, this is an ongoing rise of individualism. The second piece of this for me is that we live in a world where everyone has a voice and there're good parts to that and there're bad parts to that.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There's a lot of people who call themselves experts. In fact, everyone calls themselves an expert at some point. And when everyone is an expert, no one is an expert.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
We just have so many voices, especially when you talk about pet healthcare and taking care of pets, there's so many pet experts and some of them are great and some of them are not. And the average pet owner has no idea after a while, who is who? So it's better just to be skeptical of everyone.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so we've bred this skepticism in experts, because we've all seen “experts” who don't know what they're talking about. And if it's not in that medicine, it's in fitness, it's in nutrition, it's in finance or personal investing, and these people get platforms and they don't know what they're doing. And it sours people on the whole expert system. That's why the researcher says that we've seen people losing faith at experts, because it's easy to be an expert now. The traditional credentials you need to have are long gone. There's Dunning-Kruger, and I love Dunning-Kruger. Dunning-Kruger is a psychological phenomenon that says, “While we expect that people's confidence in a subject increases with the time they spend in that subject, that's not true.” What we find is what's called the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is when we pick up a new area of expertise or interest, we have a massive surge in confidence.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
This is like people who go and do a couple of hours of reading on the internet on a topic, and suddenly they could lead a college course in their own minds.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So Dunning-Kruger says that we get this surge of confidence and only later do we realize what we don't know, and our confidence comes back down and we start to actually rebuild it because we actually have real expertise. But that big initial spike is where a lot of people live when they come to the vet clinic, because they have gone online and they have looked at their pet and what they think is good for their pet, and they have grabbed onto some information or some content. And they believe that their understanding is much, much greater than it actually is. And so they come in with very strong opinions with confidence in their positions and things like that. And we have to deal with that. I think that's a new problem as much is a new problem because pets owners didn't use to go to the library and get fired up. Now it's the abundance of information at people's fingertips where they can dive right in and find anything they want and quickly become an “expert” in their own minds. So we're seeing Dunning-Kruger bringing that confidence in, in a big way.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There's the attention economy and the availability heuristic. And we're talking to a lot of psychology here because this is important to understand how he got here. So the attention economy is the modern economy that we have that basically says, if it bleeds, it leads.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's all of the financial drivers for whose outlets? For media outlets, they're on eyeballs in advertising and keeping attention and putting you on their platform as long as possible. And it is not hard to figure out which type of content keeps people on platforms and which gets them to engage and comment and share and respond, and it's emotional content. It's things that make you afraid and things that make you outraged, unfortunately, more so than make you happy. We know that content that makes us mad is the most effective content in getting attention and keeping attention. And so we see a lot of very upsetting content because it generates advertising dollars.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so that's particularly hard for us as vets because there's also this thing in our brain called the availability heuristic. And so the availability heuristic is our mental preference for stories and especially recent stories over data or facts. Think about, I always say this, talk to a room full of vets, and I'll say, “Raise your hand, if you have used a medication, which is a common medication, and you have had a scary side effect from it in one of your patients.” And they all raise their hand, and I say, “Raise your hand, if I could convince you to a 100% trust that medication again by showing you data.” And no one raised their hand.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it's because once it's happened to you and you've seen this scary thing, you hold onto it and it carries a lot more weight than theoretical data. Well, we've got this attention economy where pet owners are covered in scary stories all the time, and they remember them, their mind is made to remember the scary stories. And so they come in and they hear about the time, somewhere in their area, somewhere in the country, there was a pet who got flea prevention and exploded, destroying the car and half of a neighborhood. You know what I mean? That's insane, but they heard that story, and boy, they remember it because they had given their pet the same flea medicine until they heard that story. And I can show them all the data I want, but man, that availability heuristic, they heard the story, they were scared by the story, they hold onto the story.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's a problem. And again, because of our economy, there's a lot of those stories. And the last is tribalism. Right? And we talked about this, I think we talked a bit about tribalism in our last podcast, when we talked about the cowboy technician, we talked about how fitting in is really important, and this is caveman wiring. We are all made to not be shunned from the tribe because to be cast from the tribe is to die in starvation and you'll never pass on your gene and just starve. So we really do not want to be casted out of the tribe. And so tribalism is a thing in our genes, and boy, tribalism is on the rise today. There are tribal signals and positions that people take. And I hate, I hate to say this, but I think we've all seen it. Science has become a bit of a political position in some ways. And I hope it doesn't continue to go in that direction, but boy, when people's tribes center on believing in science or not believing in science, those are powerful drivers.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Anyway, I just gave you a laundry list of things, but those are the biggest things in my mind and they all converge and you can see how they would be increasing over the years. But those are the things that I believe are driving this steady decline in, I don't know, in the willingness to accept facts when people come into our exam rooms.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. All of that makes total sense to me, and we've seen an increase all of us in our personal lives or our professional lives or both of this happening. And so I think we're going to start where we always do with headspace. And I think the biggest thing for me, when I read this and the thought about it, I think it's very easy, especially as a veterinarian, I could hallucinate or as a technician who has gone to school and is educated. It's very easy when a client is like, “I don't believe that. I don't think the vaccines actually work.” It's so easy to internalize that and take it personally. Because-
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, yeah. Well, I hate to say but we're tribal too.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right. And so we are the science tribe. We are the vet medicine tribe, the healthcare provider tribe, and so when someone says, “I don't believe you.” It's kind of feels like an attack on our tribe, and then we don't want to get cast out of the tribe either. And so there's a status thing of, “Are you calling me a liar? Are you questioning my value?” And people can get real down this hole real fast, because they're like, “I gave eight years of my life to get the education and experience, to tell you that you should vaccinate your dog for parvo, and you are looking at me and telling me that I'm wrong because you read a blog post somewhere.” And it's easy to take that at a deeply personal way. It also hits on our feelings of rejection. Every day we suck up our shyness, we put on our confident faces, but there is some part for all of us, I think that when we go into the exam room at some level, we fear rejection because we're making this recommendation.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that feels a lot like rejection and it hits us in a hard way.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Now to think that's totally true. And it's really easy, I know I have done on this. It's really easy to go from zero to 60 in terms of combative language and they're attacking you. And so the caveman piece of your brain is like, “I should attack back.” And so as scientists, what do we do? We reach for the facts. We reach for the science and use that as our weapon to come back at them, which is the totally wrong tool to use.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's like fighting with a Nerf gun. Yeah. They're unaffected by this ammunition.
Stephanie Goss:
Right. So I think from a headspace perspective, that's where we really have to start is, okay, this is where we all have to collectively take a deep breath, because taking it personally, whether it's personal against me as an individual, you don't believe me and that's making me angry or it's, we are a community of scientists, how could you not believe us? Is really important to not take that personally.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. No, I completely agree. So that's the first step of headspace. You got to, you've got to not take this personal. This is not about you, it is about them.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Some of us need to tattoo that on our forearms so that we can glance down and see it. It's not about me, it's about them. And when they come in and they don't believe in vaccines, it's not because you are not credible, it's not because you are not smart, it's not because you don't do good work, it's not because you are not a clear communicator, has nothing to do with you. This was decided when you were not there and it has been engraved and there may be some cultural tribal supports pushing this person's direction. Who knows? It does not have to do with you. You did not cause this problem, you did not benefit from this problem, you are not responsible for this problem. This problem is not about you, and you can't take it personally.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All that said, we got to deal with it and we will, but if you take this culturally, you're toast, you are dead in the water. This is not going anywhere. And so man, headspace, headspace, headspace, it matters so much in this conversation. And most of us, one of the biggest things for us is not getting triggered. There's that old saying that a buddy of mine said years ago, and it became one of my go-to phrases. You can be righteous or effective choose one. And so if you want to go to battle to defend science and the honor of science, you can totally do that. Or if you want to deliver wellness services to this pet, you can do that too, but you can't generally do both. And so decide if you want to take care of the pet or if you want to fight for science and facts, it's up to you, but it's real hard to do both.
Stephanie Goss:
I have thoughts about that, but I think they come in the solutions.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay. All right. We'll showcase. We'll put up in that. We'll leave it there. But how do we not take it personally? I believe that people are innately good. And that is a mental exercise. I said this at a talk at VMX and this young doctor goes up to me and says, “I really like that you say that you choose to believe that people are good and that you deeply believe it.” And he goes, “How do you do that?” He's like, “I really struggle to believe that people are good and they do these things.” And I go, “Trust me. I see it. I believe that people are driven by natural selection and these deep psychological drivers and they have needs that are trying to be met. And everyone's fighting a battle that we don't know anything about. And I believe all those things, but I'll tell you what, buddy, at the end of the day, sometimes I just have to accept it on faith.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Just as a religion where it's like I can't see it, sometimes I question it, but I accept that people are good. Like a lot of people accept religion is true. To me I choose to believe it. And sometimes you got to work hard to believe, but I believe, and I recommend it. I recommend it, it makes life better and easier if you can choose to believe that.
Stephanie Goss:
I think something that helps me and I learned this lesson painfully and the hard way, in my past in working with some bosses is that, if you say that people are truly innately good, which I also believe it's one of the things that you and I have in common in terms of values. But I think for me, part of it is sometimes I can look at someone and if I say, “They're just self-centered, it's about them.” It's easier for me to wrap my brain around that and think about it from that perspective sometimes than it is to look at that person and think this person is an innately good person because sometimes it is hard to not take it personally. Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And in the moment, especially in the moment when you're angry and you're staring at that client in the exam room. Sometimes it's easier for me to just look at them and say, “What if this is not about me? What if this is all about them?” That is a little bit easier for me to wrap my brain around than I do truly believe that this is a good person, because sometimes in the moment when you're staring at them, I don't think that's a good person, even though I do believe that. Right. Because when you're triggered, it's hard to reach for that. So one of the things that I have had to do is look at it and be like, “Nah, maybe they're just being a little self-centered right now.” Maybe this is really about them or their pet or their lifestyle or their a million other things. And that exercise becomes a little bit easier for me.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree. And I push that even farther. The thing that really helps me with this is, I believe that people are formed by natural selection. I believe that millions of years of natural selection have made us into the creatures that we are. And if natural selection is a driver, natural selection wants what? It wants you to survive and to pass on your genes and to maintain your status in the community, so that you can take care of your offspring and raise them up so that they will pass on their genes.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that is what it cares about. And so being self centered is not a flaw, if that is the driver. It's a feature, it's a strength that's a strong point. So I will say not only do we have to be okay with people of being self-centered, I think you just need to own that it is baked into every one of us, that we are self-centered. We are looking out for ourselves and our immediate families for the fundamental uncool idea, our goal of passing on our genes to the next generation. And so self-centeredness is baked in, and honestly by accepting that, that makes the good part a whole lot easier for me to take. Because I'm like, I do believe that everyone is self-centered and they can also be good. And so when I see people acting in the self-centered manner, I go, “Oh, this is a good person who has a self-centered nature that is coming out now. And that I'm seeing.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so for whatever reason, for me just that acceptance, it helps me to see this person as a human being and not just to dismiss them as this person's an idiot. And [crosstalk 00:23:21] I say that because that's what a lot of us think and is popped into my head. It's easy to dismiss people, right? Honestly, because when I start to feel challenged, if I can dismiss this person as an idiot, then I don't have to listen to their criticisms or their comments or to figure out how to deal with them and I can forgive myself if they walk away and don't do anything for their pet because they're an idiot. And so there is a call to write people off, but ultimately it gets real lonely, if you start writing everybody off. And it gets easier and easier to write people off. And so it's a balance, but acceptance is key. It's absolutely key to effectiveness. The other key to put in your headspace is you got to know your objective, right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Is your objective to change the worldview of this person or is it to take care of their pet? I mentioned that earlier, but those are two radically different things. And it's just important when I say that, it's like know what? People are innately good, innately self-centered, but also innately and it's not my job to affect this person's worldview, or even to make even believe what is true. It's my job to take care of their pet. And so I am going to meet them where they are and play with the cards they deal to me, to try to get the best outcome for their pet that I possibly can. And then I'm going to go on with my life because it's not my job to raise this person.
Dr. Andy Roark:
They're not my child, they're not my spouse. I have zero responsibility for them. I'm going to meet them where they are. I'm going to behave with integrity. I'm going to advocate for the things I think are best. I'm going to try to say them in a way that this person will hear and take action on them. And then I'm going to go on with my life and I'm not going to worry too much about it.
Stephanie Goss:
I think that is really important because that is the bridge for me to the action steps, which is part of it for me is can I provide care for their pet? Is this a fundamental disagreement on everything? Or is this a disagreement on one thing? Am I still having the opportunity to provide care for their pet? Because to me, if we agree to disagree on one thing, but we can find some common ground in the middle, then I think your point of, I'm going to go on with my day. I'm going to do what I can for this patient. I'm going to do the best that I can as a doctor. And then I'm going to move on. That is an easier space to get into headspace wise. I think where a lot of people struggle is with, what do I actually do when it's not just one thing? Right. What do I do when the client is truly starting to tie my hands? Because it's all the things.
Stephanie Goss:
It started with, “Well, I don't believe in flea preventative.” And here's the conversation, and now to your point, everybody's world view is expanding in that way. What do you do when it's that way about everything? And so that for me is the bridge to headspace because from headspace to action is, can I find anything in common with them? Can I bridge the gap in any way? Because if I can, then I can try and move forward as a professional, and if I can't, then I think knowing that it is okay to say, I might not be able to care for this pet truly because we can't get on even the same page on one thing.
Stephanie Goss:
And so the best thing for this patient, may be for them to find a veterinarian who more aligns with their worldview or their thoughts about the care for their pet, because I feel I can't actually provide that care. And I think from an action step perspective, that is something that a lot of the time we struggle with as veterinarians and as members of the veterinary community is being okay with saying, “Maybe I can't help this person.” Because we think we have to help everybody, and sometimes that ties our hands too.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I think that's a great place to put a button on headspace, is you have got to get okay with the idea that you cannot make people do anything. You cannot change their mind. You just don't have power over people. And some of them they might not be your clients and that's okay, because you can't be all things to all people. So let's put a button right there, and take a break and then we'll come back and get the action steps.
Stephanie Goss:
Sounds good.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey, Stephanie Goss, you got a second talk about GuardianVets?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. What do you want to talk about?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, I hear from people all the time that are overwhelmed, because the phones never stop ringing. And I'm sure you hear from these people as well. Like our caseload is blowing up and the doctors are busy and the phones just don't stop.
Stephanie Goss:
They never stop. That is a true story.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I'm amazed by how few veterinarians know about GuardianVets. This is a service where you have registered technicians who can jump in virtually and help you on the phones. You can flip a switch and GuardianVets can jump in and take some of the load off the front desk and they can handle your clients and get them booked for your appointments and give them support. And it really is a godsend.
Stephanie Goss:
Pre pandemic, it was amazing to me how many people hadn't heard about it for after hours call help. But at this point, I can't believe how many people don't realize that they are offering help during the daytime as well. Which I would think right now is a huge benefit to practices because everybody is shorthanded. Everybody is drowning in phone calls. And so we talk about it, we've talked about GuardianVets a lot on the podcast, and every time we do, we always get somebody who says, “What is that?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Guys, if you're not familiar with GuardianVets, if you think that you could use them help on the phones or up the front desk, check them out, it's guardianvets.com. And if you mention our podcast, me and Stephanie Goss, you get a month free. So check it out, guardianvets.com.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey. Hey you, what's you got happening on your calendar in March? Because the Uncharted Veterinary Community has lots of things coming up, that I don't think you're going to want to miss. First step in March, we have an awesome workshop by my friend, Dr. Saye Clements. Saye is going to be talking about client curation with us. She's going to teach us how to learn to identify the types of clients that you want for your practice, and then what are things that you and your team can do to attract those kind of clients specifically? It's happening more March 13th at 12:00 PM Eastern time, 9:00 AM Pacific, and it is a two hour workshop. So put that on your clinic calendar, take a lunch break, go in late for the day, if you're here on the West Coast. It is $99, it's free as always for our Uncharted members, and you can sign up at unchartedvet.com/events.
Stephanie Goss:
And then in the back half of the month on March 24th, my dear friend, Bret Canfield is doing a presentation that I am super pumped about. He and I are going to do some tag teaming on this. I am his wingman moderator, and I am so excited for this because I went to Bret at the beginning of the year and said, “Hey, you are the person that comes to mind when I think about this topic because you live this and you help teams breathe this. And I want to bring this to Uncharted into the veterinary community at large.” And that is the idea of more than an EAP. What can we do to make wellness happen in our practices? Bret is going to talk to us about the benefits of programs like EAPs, but beyond that what are some ways and things that we can do to create sustainability for our teams.
Stephanie Goss:
Again, this is a two hour workshop. It's $99 for the general public and it's free for our Uncharted members. It's happening on March 24th at 2:00 PM Eastern time, so 11:00 AM Pacific. So this one will hit my West Coasters' lunch time and mid-afternoon for those East Coasters. It's a two hour one, so again, make sure to check out unchartedvet.com/events for all of the upcoming events and registration. And I want to take a quick second to pause, before we head back to the podcast. I have to show some serious gratitude to our friends at Banfield Pet Hospital. Andy and I have wanted to do transcripts for the blog for a while because we've had multiple colleagues reach out to us and say, “Hey, I've heard great things about the podcast. I would love to listen, but this is not accessible to me.”
Stephanie Goss:
And while we were trying to figure that out, our friends over at Banfield stepped up and said, “Hey, we see you, and this is something that fits our values and our culture as a practice. We want to increase diversity and inclusion in better new medicine, and we would love to help with that.” And so they stepped in and put in a big way and are sponsoring all of our transcripts for 2022. So if you know someone who hasn't accessed the podcast, because there weren't transcripts available previously, send them to unchartedvet.com/blog. They can find all of the transcribed podcasts for 2022 and they can also find out more, or you can find out more about all of the things that Banfield Pet Hospital is doing to increase diversity, inclusion and equity in veterinary medicine. And now back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, let's get into some action steps. I really love what you were saying about on, not being able to serve some people. And if things continue to mount up, maybe this is just not the right client for you. One of the things I think, unfortunately we have to put forward and a lot of people haven't thought of this. But I really think we're a place in the world where you have to be intentional about your approach to dealing with polarization and with people who have strong world views that maybe anti-science or don't align with yours. Right? I think we've got three choices about how we work as either individuals or as practices. And the first is you can choose a tribe, you can say, this is what we believe. And we believe in science here, we trust the data and we talk to the data and clients who don't like that are not going to come here.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
They are going to come in, they are not going to like what they see, or they are not going to feel persuaded and they are going to probably leave and go somewhere else, so we are okay with that.
Stephanie Goss:
I'll give you a great example of that. I think a really easy one for people to wrap their heads around is the idea of pets being vaccinated for rabies. And we know the scientific value behind that, and as leaders of a practice, I have a job to do, which is to protect my team. And so when I have pets who come in for procedures and stuff, and they are not current on their rabies vaccine, if someone gets bit, that is a risk factor. And so in prior practices that I have managed that has been our worldview, that has been our line in the sand. And so we have said, okay, in order for a patient to receive services here, unless they are sick and a doctor is saying, for this reason, we're not going to vaccinate them to today. But in general, our rule of thumb is if they're not vaccinated against rabies, we can't keep them for an optional procedure. Right.
Stephanie Goss:
So that was our line in the sand. And I remember when we started doing that and talking about it with clients, and there were a lot of clients who lost their mind and they were like, “Well, I don't want my pet to be vaccinated for rabies.” And collectively as a team, we said, “We understand that. And we understand that is absolutely your choice to make. You and your pet would be better served somewhere else. And we're okay with that.” And we were okay with clients going somewhere else. So I think that's an example of one thing, but it was really like, this was our tribe. Our tribe was our people, and we felt like that was the thing we could do to protect ourselves and each other, and so we said here is that line in the sand.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I think a good way to put it is we have a line in the sand and here's when this works. It works pretty well when you're in a fairly homogeneous demographic area. And you could say, “Oh, we believe that the vast majority of our clients are in this tribe or they believe in this. We serve in an area where the vast, vast majority of our clients are on board with this and that's not a big deal.” It gets much harder if you're in a split area where people have different beliefs, you know what I mean? And you're going to run into half the people who are not in alignment with what you think medicine should be or how medicine should happen. The other stressor that I've seen with this is with the staff, which means if I say, “This is what we do, and this is how we do it.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I have members of staff that don't agree with that, you can lose staff members over that. And that doesn't mean you shouldn't necessarily do it. If you say, “This is our belief, and this is how we practice, is who we are.” And one of your technicians says, “I'm not that person. And my values don't align with what you are saying and how you're saying it.” That may not be bad, that staff member going to leave, and you can do it. So that's option one, is to say, this is who we are and we are going to attract the clients that resonate with us and be okay with the clients who don't resonate with us going somewhere else. And you have to get your team on board with that, right. Option number two is ignoring the whole thing and just being who you are and seeing what happens.
Dr. Andy Roark:
This is my least favorite of the options, but there's a lot of people out there who are like, “We don't want to make a stand. We're just going to try to do our best.” And often they end up not really resonating strongly with anybody, but also not really turning anybody off. And they are constantly reacting to what they're getting back from their clients. And so it's indecision as a decision at some point. And then the last part is you say, “I'm going to focus on meeting clients where they are and matching my presentation to their priorities and beliefs.” And you make that choice to say, “We try to be open. We try to meet pet owners where they are and support them based on their priorities. And so we lean very much into a hard customer service model, just accepting that they might not agree with what we believe in, and we're going to have to use their words to agree back to them.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
So those are the three options. It's funny I think a lot of people immediately go, “Well, the first one's what I want. I only want to see people who believe what I believe.”
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I go, “Well, there's truth to that.” And there are some clinics that I know who do that, and they send as many signals as they can as you come, this is what we believe is what we do here. And that can be a fun place to work, and you can work with clients who share your ideas, and that could be great. A lot of other practices don't have that luxury of serving people that just match exactly with their clinic culture and they have to flex. And so anyway, I put that forward just because a lot of people have never given that any thought at all about what they're trying to do and who they are.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And what's sad is you can end up tripping over yourself in a lot of ways and making stands in some places and not making stands in other places and sending confusing messages and no one in the staff really knows what your lines are or what's supposed to happen. And there's all this, “Are we saying this and what do we say with that? And how does this work? And do we care about this? What about that?” And it can just be a jumbled mess.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. Well, I think that unfortunately in veterinary medicine, I think that there are far more hospitals on the end of the spectrum where they just try and meet everybody where they're at, and don't really have a whole lot of clear lines. Then there are practices who are like, “This is the type of client that we are going to serve, and this is the only type of client that we're going to serve.” Right. I think most of us are in the middle or towards that end where we aren't really doing that. And so I think the cool part is in my opinion, there's a lot of room for us to do some more building of a culture for clients that is a concept that is radical for a lot of people. It's like, “Well, we're here to serve anybody who walks through our doors.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, are we? I think it's great, if that is how you feel. I know for me, I probably want to be more towards the middle. I want to develop an intentional client base and I'm okay, if we have some clients who are going to do what they're going to do, and aren't a values alignment, but I would rather work in a place where we had more of a values alignment with clients than we didn't, that's appealing to me. Right. And so I think that for a lot of us, we have opportunity to think about the concept that it is okay to say, “I want to develop a client base that matches, or has more similarities to who we are as a team and what we believe.” And set some of those rules and parameters in place. Because I really truly believe it's okay to look at a client and say, “I think that your pet would be better served somewhere else for this reason.” Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
If I have a client who truly does not believe a word that is coming out of my mouth, I could continue to try and work with them and get frustrated over and over and over again. But at some point when you do the same thing over and over and over again, that's your business model, that's the culture that you're creating, and that is for me an exercise in frustration.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that there's truth to that. If you set your practice up the right way and you communicate what is expected and what your standards are and what your wellness protocols are and you present them as, this is our plan for today, and this is what we do here. A lot of times you don't have to be the one who says to the client, most of the time, you don't have to be the one who says, “I don't think this is a good fit.” They're going to see-
Stephanie Goss:
Self-select.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's not a good fit. I'll give you two examples from different sides of the spectrum that I have seen in my career. And I'm not speaking negatively about either one of them other than say, they're very different.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You and I have friends who run a practice in a very urban area and they fly a rainbow flag out front and everybody there has got a different color of hair and they've got tattoos, fully exposed and everything. And that is who they are, and that is what they are. It's great, and their clients love it. In fact, they draw probably more clients because they're like, this is who we are.
Stephanie Goss:
This is who we are.
Dr. Andy Roark:
This is what we do. And people are like, I'm here for it.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so putting that out and being loud and proud, this is who we are, this is what we do. For them it's not a flaw, it's a feature, it's a plus, it's an at attractor. And there's people who would see that and be like, “That's not the vet for me.” That's fine, go somewhere else. And then I have another practice that I have seen and I've been to, and I walked in and there was, I don't know how to say this the right way, but they were a faith-based practice, evangelical. They had Bibles on the side tables and they had cross up on the wall and they prayed on their cases and they did that stuff. They seemed to be a very good hospital, from a medical standpoint, and they were very kind and very nice to work with.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But again, they were loud and proud about who they were and what they cared about. And they were slam busy, and they had people who I'm sure again, saw this absolutely as, it's not a flaw, it's a feature. This is who they are, other people would say, “Well, that's not the vet for me.” And that's okay. We're all got plenty of work. There's great power in saying, this is who we are and sending those signals. And so again, I think strategically there's a lot of power in that.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I want to switch the conversation a little bit here, to going from the practice level down to the individual level and saying, “Well, what do when we're talking to this person in the exam room?” So I think that's the long play is setting up who we are and communicating that. But what do you do when you go in the exam room and the person is there and you quickly come to understand that they're not on board? I had a client say to me, “I don't believe in vaccines.” And I was like, “They're real, I've got them in the back.” She didn't think that was as funny as I did. I thought it was funny. Really good line. [crosstalk 00:44:11].
Stephanie Goss:
That was fantastic. Fair point, right? What do you do when that client is standing in front of you and says, I don't believe in vaccines?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I think for me, and again, I thought your question earlier of, what do you do when these things mount up? And you go, “I don't believe in this. And I don't believe in this and I don't believe in this.” At some point I go, “I don't feel like I can help you, because you disagree with so many of the things that I provide.” At some point I can say, “Look, I don't think I'm a good vet for you.” And I think that's the right answer for some people is to be like, “Look, you don't agree with what we do here, you should go somewhere else.” I do think that's true. For most of it's what I tend to see, I rarely see someone who's like, “I don't agree with this and this and this.” Because those people just don't come in. At some point they're like, “I don't see value in you.” And I'm like, “Why did you come here then?” So I don't see as nearly as much as I see the people who have a thing. They have a thing, they're like-
Stephanie Goss:
That's true.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I've been reading on this. It's often nutrition is a big one that we see, you know what I mean? Flea and tick stuff, heartworm prevention can be a thing.
Stephanie Goss:
Yep.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I don't want chemicals. And again, looking at these people with compassion is absolutely critical. But generally we see there is a thing and what helps me the most with these cases is to set realistic expectations. And I think a lot of us feel this pressure on ourself of you came in here and you don't agree with something that I'm recommending. And so I'm going to try to spar with you and see if I can debate you into doing what I'm asking you to do. And I'll just be honest and say, “Generally, that's not possible.” If they come in and they look at you, as soon as you walk in the room and say, “I don't believe in this.” The chances of you getting them to go home and be compliant with that thing that they said to you when you walked in the door is zero in my opinion. I don't see it turn that around today.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think the answer is in the long term of let's work with what we can, and I am going to listen to you and make you feel heard. I will talk to you about why I recommend what I recommend then I'm going to listen to your concerns and take you seriously. Not with the idea that I'm going to change your mind today, but in the idea that I can hopefully build some trust with you and we can start to build a relationship. And in a year or two, five, we might be able to have this conversation in a way where you and I have trust in our relationship and you'll hear me, or we have this relationship and something will change in your life and you will feel very differently. And I find that often guys, that is the window or the door that opens is that something happens.
Dr. Andy Roark:
People they take a position and then something it changes in the world, something happens. They have a pet that gets heartworm disease, and then suddenly they look at things very, very differently. And now they're open to having this conversation about the rest of their pets and things like that. And I don't want it to get to that, but sometimes that's what it takes. And then that door opens up and we have that relationship and I can get in and I can really work with this person and move them where they want to be for the rest of the life of this pet and for all the lives of their future pets.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think what you said is really important in terms of understanding what their priorities are and making them feel heard. That is a really important piece of it, and it's also, I think for most of us as human beings, the hardest thing to do when we feel challenged, right. Is to sit back and truly hear somebody else out. So I think that's where we have to reach for all of those exam room tools that we learned in school, to engage in active listening, to ask them more questions, to truly listen to what they're saying. Because for a lot of us, the switch gets flipped and the first thing we do is stop actually listening and start planning our reply and the thing we want to say next, because we're triggered.
Stephanie Goss:
We talk about headspace a lot on the podcast and talk about getting in that safe headspace, and so I think this is similar to that in it is really important to make people feel heard, to actually truly listen to them and employ your active listening skills. You have to repeat back to them what they're saying. You want to probably take some notes and write some things down because you want them to feel they are being heard. That is the only way then I think you can take a step forward that is going to be productive in any way.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. While you're doing this, while you're listening, while you're taking notes, you should be looking for things that you can agree on. And you should be putting forward everything that you'd agree on and you should be telling them, “I think you're totally right about this. That's important to me as well. I totally hear that.” And the reason is because, and this is just healing divisions between people, if there's a chasm between you and me, and we're both just staring at the chasm, then our ability to come together is zero. But if we can look up and look around the landscape and see the rest of the landscape, that's not a chasm, but a nice homogeneous landscape. It turns out we can walk around the chasm because we have raised our heads and looked at everything else that's going on, things that we agree on.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The same thing is here is say, “Well, I might not be able to close this chasm today, but there's a lot of other land on the landscape that we can walk around on. And that's where I'm going to spend my time today.” And again, build that relationship and build that trust, but as we actively listen focus on what you agree with, focus on what they've got right, focus on the things that are good. And you'll probably figure out that 85% of the things that you talk about, you guys are sympathic on, and that's enough to start to build a relationship and build trust. And if you look around and is 25% of the things that you guys agree with, that's probably a bad fit client who we're going to be happy where you are and the sooner that you realize that, and they realize that probably the happier everybody's going to be.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But yeah, I completely agree. It's active listening to understand their priorities. One of my favorite things, we talk about nutrition a lot and people have strong dietary opinions or things that they do and it's easy, people will hear this and they'll be like, “Well, why do you feed them that?” Or, “That's not really not what we recommend.” Then I go, “That's the wrong way to approach this.” The right way to approach is say, “Help me understand why that's the way that you decided to go? What's important to you about the diet that you feed? I just want to know what your priorities are.” And then just listen to them and they'll tell you what their priorities are. And then we can have an honest conversation, and again, I might not be able to change their opinion today or their mind today, or probably not.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But now that I understand what's important to them, I can start to have those conversations in a subtle and ongoing way and reel them in, but it's going to take some time. Yeah, what's important to you? What are your priorities? What do we agree with? If I can get those things out on the table, a lot of times I can come pretty far, as far as providing a good overall healthcare experience. Even if I don't get the thing, I can often get everything else. And that's a whole lot better than if I had detonated the conversation, destroyed trust and really not been able to do anything for this pet. That's a long game.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think one of the things that's really important to me in making that long game assessment, you said something about is this one thing that they're disagreeing with and is this the first time? To getting to that point where you have said, okay, we are repeatedly disagreeing on all of these things. And so maybe this is not the right fit client, and how do you make that assessment? And this is where just like Stephanie says, “What's in your handbook?” This is where the manager in me says, “This is why I have protocols and processes to document all of the things when it comes to client communication.” Because the only way that you can truly assess is this a one time thing and one thing that they don't agree with? Or, is this all of the things? The ability to look back at the chart and say, well, the last five years in a row, we've had this conversation and this piece has been continued to be disagreed with, and this is really a core value of ours as a clinic.
Stephanie Goss:
We truly believe in this level of medicine or this type of protection, it's having that documentation to help make the judgment call so that it isn't coming from that place of frustration or triggered, right? That's where I say, this is part of why I ask the team to really make sure to document not only what does the client agree to? So that you protect yourself, but also when there is a disagreement. And the way that I do that, a lot of people really struggle with, okay, I don't want to write in the chart that they declined it because of a lot of times the conversation is, well, they decline it because they don't agree with it, or they tell me that they don't want to give their pet chemicals.
Stephanie Goss:
It's as simple as asking for their permission to engage in the process. And so what I would say to that client is, “Mrs. Smith, what I just heard you say is that you don't want to use the heartworm preventative because you don't want to give Fluffy chemicals and have her ingest them. Is that correct?” And say, “Okay, I just want to make sure that I am thorough in keeping track of where we're at with her overall healthcare. I'm going to make a note in her chart. That is how you are feeling today so that when somebody else looks at her chart, they see why we didn't send you home with preventative today, is that okay?” Really it doesn't have to be this combative thing where we're like, “You're wrong. I'm right. And I need to write it down.” Which is I think in the moment where a lot of us come at it from, because we're triggered and we're frustrated.
Stephanie Goss:
But having that stuff written down and the ability to look back at it objectively is super, super helpful in trying to figure out, is this the client who just really doesn't agree with heartworm preventative? And we're never going to sell them on that idea. And to your point, they accept the vaccines and the dental recommendations and 90% of the other care we're providing. That's probably an okay client that I'm going to keep in my practice, I'm not offended by that. But if it is a client where they're disagreeing with 50 or 75% of what we're recommending and why we're recommending it, then maybe it's time to have a conversation about how there might be a better fit for them somewhere else.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I completely agree. I think probably about the last point that I would make is, if I'm dealing with someone who doesn't believe in data, or they're not going to be swayed by the research, don't talk to them about data. Lean into stories, use stories and examples and lean into the human aspect. So when someone says, well, this is what I worry about and blah, blah, blah. And this is what I think, and this is how I feel. I want to tell them like, “Hey, I understand that. I've had those concerns or I have concerns like that. And I hear that. Let me tell you about something that I see in practice a lot. And the reason that I feel the way that I do.” And then just tell them the story, be honest, always integrity, a little else, but be honest and tell, them about the case that you saw that went badly this way.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And tell them about out how often you see pets that aren't flea prevention in South Carolina, that their skin is infected and their hair has been pulled out and they can't sleep and their owners can't sleep. Just tell them and say this is what I see and I see these products come in and they're not regulated. And I have to tell you the vast majority simply don't work, and I understand wanting to try it. And if you want to try this, then I'll support you, but know that generally these things fail and the outcome is painful to the pet. And this is what I mean when I say that and put it back to them. But if they're not going to care about my data, then I'm going to tell them a story, or I'm going to give them an example of what I'm talking about.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I can at least put it in their mind to try to help them see what I'm seeing. And I find that builds a lot of credibility, but going to the data with someone who does not care about your data or who doesn't believe your data. And that's the big thing, data only works if both people looking at the data believe that there is some credibility to the data itself. I've been reading this book on Theranos, the Theranos scandal. It's fascinating, just blown away by how everyone involved behaved in this case. So for those of you who don't know Theranos is a drug company, and they had this technology that was supposed to be a diagnostic piece of technology. And so the idea was that people could prick their finger and then just put their finger on a cartridge and pop the cartridge into a little diagnostic box that is at their house, and it would do a bajillion different kinds of blood work.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It was amazing. And the short story is it didn't work and it never worked. And they took so much money for a thing that just did not work, they had cancer patients, pricking their fingers and the results they got were junk. It's a shocking crazy story. But one of the things that was fascinating, because how could this ever happen? And it was funny because they got all of these validations and the way they got the validations was they just took data to someone and said, “Here's our data.” And the people were like, “Oh, this data's really solid.” But the data itself was chunk, it was fantasy. And I've been thinking a lot about that, so they had these people who looked at the data and said, “Yep, this data makes sense to me.” But they never questioned where the data came from.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so that's just made me think a lot about when we talk about data, where are the headaches? I think a lot of us look and we say, “Well, this is the data. Surely you accept the data, and if you accept the data, then this is the conclusion.” But these people don't accept the data or where the data came from often. And so that is why I can never have a data conversation that works is because they don't buy into the original data.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And unfortunately with Theranos, you can say, “Well, you now have an example of why that might be a bad idea.” Again, humanizing people and trying to meet them where they are and accepting as much as you can, I think is helpful. But using that story, using those examples, leaning into the human part of it, talking about being a pet owner and talking about the pets and taking care of the pets, that stuff tends to cut across tribes and media and things like that. Everybody wants to take good care of their pet, and so really humanize yourself, be transparent, be vulnerable, lean into taking care of the pet and explaining why you want to take care of the pet. And agree with everything that you can and validate as much of their position as you can. I think that those are absolute best tools that we have to work with people who maybe don't agree with what we agree with.
Stephanie Goss:
I think the last thing that I have from an action step perspective goes back to the original email and the questions about like, what do I do when they're angry about this? And I think it's a very personal question and what works for each clinic is going to be so different and so individual, but I really want to say, it is okay if there is something that is a line in the sand for you or for your team. I think letting go of some of the guilt that we put on ourselves of feeling like I exist to serve all of my clients and all of my patients, and if someone doesn't fundamentally agree with me, I still need to take care of their pet. And I do truly believe that our job is to be here for our patients.
Stephanie Goss:
And I also am a firm believer that it is okay to put out there as long as we are clearly communicating those things to your point in your stories earlier about our friends who have the clinic, who everybody is accepted as they are, it is very open-minded, it is very liberal practice. Their team has tattoos and is brightly colored, and comes from every walk of life, every size, shape, and color, that kind of diversity, that's who they are. They're doing a great job of communicating to their client base that's who they are, and that things that go against that are not tolerated. So they have a very clear policy for their clients about we don't tolerate racism in our practice. We don't tolerate our team being mistreated based on what they look like or who they are as a person that's unacceptable for us.
Stephanie Goss:
Or the faith based practice that you interviewed with, I think that's great because they are communicating that inwardly and outwardly to their clients. And so that's where I think we have to really be okay with letting go of some of that guilt. And if there is something that is a line in the sand for you and your team, you do you, right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
Because your vibe is going to attract your tribe. And let me tell you, we have seen our friends practice be wildly successful, because they're putting out into the world who they are as people, as a vibe and people are flocking to it. To your point, they're succeeding because of that, and I think that it's really important to think about, who are you as a team? And that it is okay to say, I didn't lose any sleep at night. I did in the very beginning because I felt guilty about saying, “Well, we might not be able to give service or provide care to a patient if they are not current on their rabies vaccine.” That was really hard for me in the beginning, but now you bet, I don't think twice about it and don't lose sleep because I truly believe I am protecting my patients and my team, and that is important to me.
Stephanie Goss:
And the reason that I feel okay with it is because that is communicated from day one. When we have clients who come into the practice, this is part of our policy, this is part of our protocols. Clients get that information, we talk about it from the beginning, it is a regular reoccurring conversation. And so I think if there is something that is a line in the sand being okay with letting go of that guilt and the actionable steps there are that you have to be communicating what and why to your clients loudly and often.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. If you struggle with that, I'll tell you, one of my good friends, Dr. Indu Mani, she is… I'll butcher her title, but basically she's the Chief Medical Officer at Brief Media that publishes clinicians brief. She's genius, and she is doing a fellowship at Harvard Medical School now in Medical Ethics. And as part of her a program, she wrote this paper that was received and she was told you should publish this. And she published it in a New York Daily Post, I shared it on social media and stuff. But she talks about this ethics principle called moral distress. And so moral distress is when you know what you should do, but you are unable to do it. And that causes a deep, ethical pain in us. And so she talks about burnout in that medicine, she says that moral distress seems to play a significant role in that, meaning one of the drivers of burnout is that you know what you should do, but you're not able to do it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And when she said that I was so few beautifully encapsulated, a lot of the burnout motions that I see and then I've gone through in my career. I would always say that vet medicine is uniquely challenging, but I didn't unpack it a lot more than that. Because I didn't have the words for it, but when she talked about moral distress, I was like, “Yes, that's the uniquely challenging that I'm talking about.” And so when you are saying, I don't know about making this line in the sand, I don't know if I should make this decision or say, this is what we require here. I think if you think about the fact that moral distress is real, that might make it easier for you to say, “No, this is a line in the sand for us. And it's because I don't don't want to continue to put my staff in the position where they're going to feel bad about doing these things.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so for me anyway, it's an interesting concept, but it does help me from a human capital standpoint to justify some hard lines that I make when I do something. Anyway, this is a sprawling conversation, you know what I mean? The topic is so hard. People are so different, but thanks for unpacking it with me and talking through everything.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I think this was really, really a fun one. Take care everyone. Have a great week.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, guys. Be well, we'll talk to you soon.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, gang, that's a wrap on another episode of the podcast and as always, this was so fun to dive into the mailbag and answer this question. And I would really love to see more things like this come through the mailbag. If there is something that you would love to have us talk about on the podcast, or a question that you are hoping that we might be able to help with, feel free to reach out and send us a message. You can always find a mailbag at the website, the address is unchartedvet.com/mailbag or you can email us at podcast@unchartedvet.com. Take care everybody, and have a great week. We'll see you again next time.