This week on the podcast…
This week on the Uncharted Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice manager Stephanie Goss are talking through a question that Stephanie admits she could have written in to the mailbag at one point in her management career. We had a manager write in and ask what to do about a great skilled, talented tech who just happens to call out ALL. THE. TIME? They are amazing for the patients and the team loves them when they are here. This management team just isn't sure how to take it from here. Let's get into this…
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New Workshop Series! Practice Owners and Managers, are you ready for some workshops to help kick-start 2023? Is this the year that you tackle creating a foundation of culture for your organization? Do you want to have a practice vision and values that do more than just look pretty on your wall? Do you want to have the right people in place on your team so that you can move forward in the same direction this year? Are you lost at where to start with leading meetings like this for your team? If the answer to any of these questions is YES, we've got you! The “Start Your Year Off Right” workshops can be taken together as a series or independently based on your practice needs.
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Episode Transcript
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Stephanie Goss:
Hey, everybody. I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Andy and I had another great letter in the mailbag this week, and we are diving into it in this episode. We got a ask from a manager who is wondering, “What do I do about a great and really high skilled technician who just happens to call out all the time?” And I mean excessive amounts. I actually did the math during the episode and this technician has missed almost 50% of the weeks in a year. And so this manager is wondering, “What do I do? How do I deal with it?” Especially because there have been some conversations along the way, but maybe not as frequently as they should have happened. And I have a feeling that it's probably hit the point where the rest of the team is super frustrated about this situation. This was a fun one. Let's get into it.
And now the Uncharted Podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and Stephanie, you're never there, Goss. You're never there. So all right, I just got back from jury duty.
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, yeah?
Dr. Andy Roark:
I just got back from jury duty, and it was an experience. Have you ever had jury duty?
Stephanie Goss:
I have. I'm excited to hear how your… This was your first experience?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I don't know how they found me, but they did. I'm worried that… people were like, “Oh, once they get you, they keep calling you.” And it was the experience. I got summoned for jury duty, and I did not have time to go to jury duty. I talked to my brother who's a lawyer. I'm like, “I don't have time.” And he was like, “They don't care.”
Stephanie Goss:
Nope.
Dr. Andy Roark:
They could not care less.
Stephanie Goss:
They give zero figs.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes. And I did find that to be true, which is interesting. Because when was the last time that someone just looked at you in your face and was like, “I don't care what you want.” It was when my children were like two years old. Right?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
When a two-year-old would look at you in your face and be like, “I don't care what your schedule is or what you have to do at work.”
Stephanie Goss:
I want it right now.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“You're going to do what I want.” And it was two-year-old and jury duty are the times in my adult life when someone looked at me and were like, “I don't…” And then they carried out the threat. They were like, “Watch how much I care.”
Stephanie Goss:
They're like, “Bam, you're on the jury.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, no, it reminds me of when my daughter was two years old and her sock came off as we were driving. And she was like, “You need to stop the car and get my sock.” And I was like, “No, we have places to be.” And she's like, “I'm going to make you.” And then she just melted down until I got off the highway and got her sock. And I'm like, “That's jury duty.” They're like, “I can bend you to my will.” And so they did. They totally did. I went, and I got picked and put on a jury and I watched a case. I watched it because they made me, because they took my phone away. What do you call it? The bailiff?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
He takes your phone away from you. And not you can have this back at the breaks. He's like, you can have this back-
Stephanie Goss:
When you leave.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… when you are done. Done, done. So I sat there without my phone, like a caveman. And I watched these two people tell completely contradictory stories about what happened in a parking lot accident. I then I went and [inaudible 00:03:40] people.
Stephanie Goss:
But you lucked out in a way, because it had a relatively short trial.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah. It was great. It was a half day. I got the experience of being on a jury in a half day, and then they let me go for the week. And I was like, “No, that was definitely it.” That was the best thing, was I go to-
Stephanie Goss:
Best possible scenario.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I got to go sit in a little jury room, I got to sit in a jury box. I got to see-
Stephanie Goss:
The whole nine yards.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… the whole courtroom thing. And then it was five hours, I was done. The longest part was sitting with the jury in the little back room.
Stephanie Goss:
For deliberation?
Dr. Andy Roark:
They don't let you leave until all 12 of you agree. And I don't know if you've ever tried to get 12 people to agree on anything, but it's a horrible system, I think. They're like, “Nope, you all have to agree.” And we went in, and I, of course, I couldn't not talk, because it's me. And so I was like, “Quick temperature check, who here thinks this person… who thinks they've proved negligence on this person?” Two people raised their hands and I'm like, “Dammit.” It's 10 people were like, “Let's be done.” And two people were like, “No, we're going to do this.” And so we asked the people, “Why do you feel this way?” And they're like, “I just feel this way.” And I'm like, “That's not…”
Stephanie Goss:
Not an answer.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, you cannot just be like, “I just feel this way,” and go against the 10 of the rest of us who are like… Okay. I was like, “But what does the evidence say?” And they're like, “You know, it's my gut evidence.” And I'm like, “That's not a thing. It's not a thing.” And basically we sat there for two hours and stared at them til they're like, “You know what? It's okay, it's fine.” Then we all left. That was justice that day. We stared at them until the got uncomfortable and just wanted to go home.
Stephanie Goss:
I think that we have listeners who would pay to be on a jury with you, just for the comedic entertainment value.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, it's funny. When you're sitting in the jury room and they take your phones away and then they just leave you there until you can all agree. They come in there and be like, “Hey, it's time for a break.” And I'm like, “What does a break constitute, because we can't have phones, we can't leave the room?” It's like if I put you in a room that was like, “I need you to do this thing that involves talking to the people.” And then I came in, I was like, “Okay, you're on break now, but you can't leave the room and you're still here with the other people and you can't have your phone.” You would be like, “This isn't a break. This is me just doing the exact same thing I was doing minute ago.”
Stephanie Goss:
This is just dragging this out and prolonging it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I was like, “I don't want a break. I want to go home.”
Stephanie Goss:
Oh man.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So [inaudible 00:06:30], it was interesting. It was interesting. The funniest part was, it's a straight-up traffic accident in a parking lot. And one person was like… Both people said the other person was driving like a maniac and slammed in.
Stephanie Goss:
Of course.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“I was basically at a stop and the other person's a maniac.” And they both said that the accident happened in slightly different places, which fit with who ran in into who. Right?
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
If you believe it was this person, it probably happened over here, and if you believe it was that person, it's probably about 15 feet back this way. And there's no footage of it or anything. But one of the people was like, “You could see in the photo they showed us from the arrows that were drawn that this person was not at fault.” And I was like, “That person's lawyer drew that arrow. You can't…”
Stephanie Goss:
It's not actually evidence.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes. It's like, “That person's lawyer drew those arrows so that it would look like their client did not do the thing.”
Stephanie Goss:
Oh gosh.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But it was just funny that somebody was like, “If you look at these arrows, it's pretty clear who's at fault.” And I'm like, “You mean the arrows that their lawyer drew to protect their client and explain what happened? Those arrows?”
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, so funny. So funny.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So anyway, I was glad to be done.
Stephanie Goss:
We have a great letter from the mailbag for this week. I'm excited. This is going to be, I think, one of those ones where we go down a little bit of a culture rabbit hole. We got an email from someone asking, “What do I do with having an excellent technician with very skilled, good technical skills. They just happened to call out. And by call out, I mean excessively call out.” And so they were like, “I went back and looked, and this year this person called out over 30 times, sometimes for multiple days at a time for each instance.” And so they were like, “Look, the leadership team, floor lead, practice manager, multiple people have had conversations with them, and in the course of the conversations it's been productive and good. This person has opened up and they're having some mental health challenges.”
And so they were like, “Look, we are in a good place. We have resources. We've got an EAP. We've got a mental health coaching platform that we use. We've got therapy, psychiatry through our health benefits. This person has a lot of resources and they're using them. And the result is still that this person is out a lot, and it's a small hospital.” And so this manager was like, “We're a really small team, we only have four technicians.” And I say only, and lots of hospitals are sitting here going, “I don't even have one technician.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Sure, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
“Don't talk to me about being small team.” But they've got three doctors and four technicians to rotate through all the days that they're open. And so they're like, “When anybody on the team, doesn't matter that it's just this one person, when anybody's gone, we're severely short staffed and it puts a significant amount of strain on us. We lose revenue because we can't operate at full capacity.”
And so they were just like, “It's a reoccurring problem. And so what do we do now that it doesn't seem to be changing and there is this pattern? Because every single time it happens, it puts strain on everybody because we're working shorthanded.” And this manager was like, “It's also at the point where it's affecting me on a personal level because I'm the one who has to deal with the schedule, I'm the one who has to rearrange everything at the last minute and try and make it work, and I feel taken advantage of.” And so they were like, “We've tried talking to them, we've tried reducing their work schedule, doing less hours. We reduce it down to the minimum possible to be able to keep their health insurance benefits and none of the things that we've tried are working.” And so they were just like, “How do I deal with this? Where do I go from here?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
How dos from Stephanie Goss? What magic wand do you have that's going to fix this?
Stephanie Goss:
Oh, this is one of those asks where it's like, “What's the magic wand?” There is no magic wand.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It can be a short episode. Make the call. That's it, make the call. Anyway, we'll unpack this. We'll unpack this.
Stephanie Goss:
Let's do it. Let's do it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But the thing is, you know who this is. It's the story of this lady who finds the frozen snake, and she picks the snake up and she sticks it in her shirt. You don't know the story?
Stephanie Goss:
No.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Fine. So there's this lady, and she's walking home at night in the winter, and she finds a snake frozen solid. She picks the snake up and she puts it into her shirt. And by the time she gets home, it has warmed up to get sort of life back into it, and so it bites her.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And she dies. And as she's laying there dying, she says to the snake, “Why did you bite me?” And he says, “You knew I was a snake when you picked me up.” And that's the story. There's a Buddhist story that's the same story about the-
Stephanie Goss:
That's really funny.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… scorpion and the frog. And anyway, just basically the scorpion says to the frog, “I need to get across this river.” And the frog's like, “Okay.” And the frog swims halfway across the river with the scorpion on its back, and then the scorpion just stabs the frog and kills it.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure, and stings it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The frog is like, “Why did you stab me?” He's like, “You knew I was a scorpion when you put me on your back.” And again, this person is not bad. It doesn't sound like they're a bad person. It sounds like they're probably really struggling. Everybody's fighting a battle we don't know anything about.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
At some point you know what this is and you know who this person is. So that's headspace for me, it's the biggest headspace thing [inaudible 00:12:53], for me is this. And I've seen this. I've wrestled with this so many times in my life, is the if this person would just blank problem, which is when you look at the person like this and you say, “But she's a great technician and everybody likes her, and she's funny, and she's positive. If she would just show up and do her job, she would be amazing.”
I was like, “If she would just not steal money from the cash register, she would be incredible. If she just didn't sell drugs out the back of the practice, she would be awesome.” And again, I'm conflating these things that are wildly more problematic, but you get the point. That's the hardest thing as a manager, is when you see someone who is great in so many ways, but they have this thing that they're doing that is toxic and they will not stop doing the toxic thing. And it tortures me because I desperately just want them to stop doing the toxic thing and this'll be great. I have struggled with these people in my career because I think, “Oh, if she would just stop doing this or she would just do that.” And it is so painful to come to the point of realization that she's not going to stop.
Stephanie Goss:
Well or maybe she can't. Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Or maybe she can't, absolutely. Yes, very fair.
Stephanie Goss:
And so I think here that is, for me, part of the headspace is acceptance. For me, that is almost the totality of headspace is acceptance. At some point we have to accept…
Dr. Andy Roark:
It seems that way, because they seem like they've done a really good job.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's like at some point it really stinks when people come to us and they're clearly Uncharted listeners or they're Uncharted members and they're in there with us and they do it. It sucks because they come to us and they're like, “I did all of these things.” And I'm like, “Oh, you did all the things. There's nothing left. You did them all.”
Stephanie Goss:
It's so funny you said that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Congratulations, you're boned at this point because none of this has worked. That's so bad.
Stephanie Goss:
It's so funny that you said that, because in my first thought as I was reading it was… But let's zoom out for the people who maybe haven't, who have been in this position who haven't tried all of the things. Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay, all right.
Stephanie Goss:
Let's give kudos to this management team.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Absolutely.
Stephanie Goss:
Because they were like, “Let's start with the resources. Here's what we got.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Totally.
Stephanie Goss:
They're doing the right things. They've got an EAP, an employee assistance program. They have got additional mental health support in a coaching app, which I love the sound of that. I would like to find out more about that. They've got access to therapy and psychiatry through their health benefits which they're providing to their team, so all of these things are great. And they've been super supportive, where this person is like, “Hey, I need to take time off.” “Okay, take care of yourself. We've got it. We'll figure it out.” So big kudos there. That's step number one.
Step number two was they were like, “Hey, culture is important to us. This person is highly skilled and they are a great cultural fit.” And so you know what you talk a lot about how do we evaluate employees and we need to look at fit and we need to look at skill.
Dr. Andy Roark:
True.
Stephanie Goss:
So these managers are like, “We looked at the fit and we looked at the skill. When she's here, she's an incredible fit and she's highly skilled. This is the kind of person that we want on our team. This is the kind of person that we want to retain.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
“When she's here” is the operative words.
Stephanie Goss:
Exactly. That's exactly it. So the head space, I think, and the challenge for this management team is we have to come to a place of acceptance. And so this is a little bit of when the same thing happens over and over again, at some point it's become your business model. And so that is the case here. It has become the business model. There was some information shared, which it sounds like this person is not always necessarily being truthful when they're calling out. There is some far farfetched stories. Because I could hallucinate a planet where if someone is having struggles, whether they're physical health or mental health or within their family or home environment or whatever, at some point I've been there where it feels embarrassing to say the same thing over and over again. And so I could totally hallucinate a place where this person is like, “I can't just say I'm having a hard day again. I've got to come up with a very good reason.”
And so it sounds like they ventured into that territory where some stories have been made up, there's been some crazy-ass farfetched things that have been thrown out there as to reasons why they can't. And as a result of that, the leadership team is feeling like, “Well, now we can't trust her,” which is quite unfortunate. Because they were like, “If they would just say, ‘I need a mental health day,' that's fine. That is something we can support.” But now we're in this position where we feel like we have to deal with a problem that they have created because they're not just telling the truth. I think that that is something that we can pick apart and talk about. But I think overall, the answer is acceptance.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, you know what part of all this is? This stuff always gets me. So you've got this practice, and they are doing all of the things, you know what I mean?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
They've got psychiatric support, they've the EAP going, they're working on flexible scheduling and shortening hours and doing everything. And I'm like, “Man, these guys are crushing it as far as supporting this employee.” And you know what the experience of the other employees is? If you went and asked them or were like, “Hey, what's it working here?” They wouldn't be like, “These guys are amazing.” They would be, “It kind of sucks because this person just doesn't show up and then we just have to deal with it, and it happens over, and over, and over again. And so what is my experience? My experience is being surprised to be shorthanded again and again and again. That's my experience.” And god that sounds awful, doesn't it?
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Tell me I'm off base, right?
Stephanie Goss:
No.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That's how I see it go out all the time, is like you're in the leadership role and you are pouring your heart and soul into this, and the rest of the team is not impressed. In fact, they're just irritated, because what they see is not all the support that you're pouring in. They're seeing their own position, which is, “We're shorthanded again, and again, and again.” And again, they don't know why and they shouldn't know why. Right?
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
We don't share these types of information about why we do what we do. That's an HR no, no. So they don't have the information. And so try to put yourself in their shoes and how does this look to them? It doesn't look good. And it's one of those things where sometimes no good deed goes unpunished, where we do what we can for this employee and we work so hard, that we end up irritating the rest of our staff and now our generosity has backfired on us. I don't know that that's happening here, but again, when we talk about finding balance, that's a big part of it. We want to help this person, and we need to help the staff and make sure that they're taken care of, the rest of the staff.
And we need to take care of clients, which mean clients need to know that they're going to receive a certain standard of care when they come in, and all those sorts of things. It all has to balance out. If you have one person that just keeps tipping farther and farther back on the scale, at some point you go, “We've done everything we can to try and balance this, but we just can't go that far.” I think that's where we come to acceptance, is go, “We've done everything and it's still not going to work.”
I think that's a bitter pill to swallow, but I think sometimes we have to that swallow pill. But let's go ahead and get into headspace here, and talk about where they are from a general place. Because this is pretty far down the line. Let's talk about what they did and how they did it and what we think about that. Does that sound good?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right, sweet. We're going to have people who are going to struggle at different times in their lives.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That was the thing I didn't understand when I was younger. But as someone who has had a wife go through breast cancer, and had different employees at different times wrestle with personal things, and these are people I care deeply about. I don't know man, I just didn't understand earlier in my life how hard life is sometimes, and how complicated it is, and how good people go through hard things.
And I also didn't understand earlier on how much it meant to me to be a good employer and a good supporter of my people, how much it meant to me to say, “Hey, I understand you're going through something hard. Take care of yourself and take care of your family, and we're going to help support you through this because we care about you.” That feels great. And that is something that has meant a lot to me. And so I put that forward in headspace and sort of say, “Know what your values are. Know what you care about. Know about the type of employer that you want to be.”
I was… to say, “This is a relationship, and I want you to treat it like a relationship.” And man, I don't want to be in a relationship with somebody who's going to cut me off the moment I don't do everything that suits them. Or, the moment I'm struggling with something they're like, “Sorry, we don't have time for your stuff,” and dump you. I don't want that. At the same time, I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who continues to take, and take, and take, and take, even if they don't mean to. At some point, it's kind of like it is some of those things that I've heard and read something different things about. People who struggle with family members who just continue to drain, and drain, and drain. You say, “This is my family member.” But at some point you've got to say, “I'm sorry, I'm putting boundaries up to protect myself, even though this is a hard decision.”
I think that there's some parallels as employers of saying, “I'm going to be here. I'm going to support you, but at some point I'm going to be a part of the healthy relationship and I'm going to have to do what I need to do to keep my own head above water,” you know?
Stephanie Goss:
Oh yeah, 100%. When you don't do anything to have balance and set boundaries, you are 100% creating the co-dependent relationship. They are taking, and taking, and taking. But by you not creating any boundaries and saying, “Okay, I'm giving grace and these are the rules that we need to play by,” you are equally responsible for creating that codependency. And so I think that's part of the acceptance for sure from a headspace perspective. It's like, “All right, this is where we're at,” and ownership of that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, the lack of truthfulness about what's been going on, I think this is an interesting life lesson. And again, a lot of the stuff we talk about… I think the reason that people like what we talk about and how we look at things in Uncharted is we tend to keep things pretty darn simple. I try to frame them that way, and they are. The truth is, once someone catches you not being truthful or their perception is that what you're sharing is not honest, you're going to lose that trust. Right?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Trust is hard to build and easy to lose. And once you lose someone's trust, one, it's hard to get back. But number two, it affects how they treat you and the grace that they extend to you. And so when they say, “We found this person not being truthful about what had happened or given these very farfetched stories,” and things like that, I'm not going to say to these people, “Oh, you can't hold that against this person,” or, “Don't let that factor into your decision.” It does factor into your decisions.
And so I think really, the truth is in personal responsibility, just as an employer or employee, as an individual. I think one of my sayings is, “Integrity above all else.” And the truth is come clean and be honest. And once people question your integrity, it closes a lot of doors for you. And I would say that's another reason… If I sounded flippant at the very beginning, this is part of the reason why, is because it's really hard to go forward with somebody that you're trying to take care of with the knowledge that they have not been truthful and they may not be truthful in the future.
It's really hard to do that. If you're dealing with someone who's struggling and they're being upfront about how they're struggling… And again, that doesn't mean sharing everything. Right?
Stephanie Goss:
Right, yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
We all have privacy and expectation of privacy. But if they're not misleading us in any intentional way, I'm much more likely to try to keep going with them and saying, “Everyone's acting in good faith.” But man, once people start being less than honest about what's going on with them, that really closes the doors in the number of ways that we can work with them, just because we never know what we're dealing with.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, yeah. No, I think that that is totally true. I think the last piece of headspace for me goes along with that. Because, for me, part of the headspace is wrapping my brain around my own acceptance, as a leader, of letting it get to the point that it's at. Again, we're only hearing one side of it, and we're just reading the email and interpreting. But they were like, “We're at the end of the year. I did a look back, this person has called out more than 30 times this year, and there's been multiple wild stories and we've caught them in lies.” My question is acceptance of, okay, I have to own that. Did I have the conversation with them the first time it happened? Did I have the conversation with them the second, third, 10th time that happened?
And acceptance of the fact that, okay, we've gone far enough down the road that now it's not an easy conversation of, “Hey, yesterday when you called out, this is what you said.” I'm going to use a common example, “Then you posted on social media, or you sent a text message to the rest of the team and said, ‘This is what I'm doing.' So I know full well that that wasn't what you needed. I just need you to know, you don't have to give me details. It's okay to just say, ‘I need to take a mental health day.' Or, ‘I can't talk about it, but I need to take a personal day off.' That's what they're there for. I don't need the details, but I do need you to be honest.” Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
So for me, part of it is acceptance of my own level of responsibility as a leader. I will tell you, again, this is an episode that there was a time in my career that I could have written this letter.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, sure.
Stephanie Goss:
And part of it, part of the very bitter part of the pill, was the fact that I was… Like you said, I wanted so badly to support that person and be there and be accepting, that the pendulum swung way too far in one direction. And then when the rest of the team was raising their hands and saying, “But what about us?” I was struggling because I was like, “But I was trying to do the right thing for this person.” And the reality is, yes, I was. I was trying to do the right thing for that person. I was trying to give them grace. I was trying to support them. I was trying to not look like the manager who's like, “Screw that. You called off for this second time, you're fired.”
Because there are managers like that in our industry, and I get that these leaders were trying to do the right thing in supporting their people. There has to be the balance. If they team is like, “Hey, we're constantly short-handed,” and you, as a leader, are saying, “I'm the one constantly having to readjust the schedule and now it's affecting my mental health,” that's part of the acceptance pill to say, “Hey, maybe the pendulum has swung too far and I need to get into a headspace about my ownership of that.” Because in the action steps, in having some of those hard conversations, it'll probably make it a lot easier to potentially have a better outcome if you can own some of that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. The last headspace thing for me, which I think is actually probably the most interesting part of this whole quandary here, is the mental health card. And that's an interesting term, but I'm hearing this term more often, the mental health card. And so to me, it's interesting because this has been put forward as this person is having mental health struggles. And that's one of the things that's been put forward.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I think a lot of leaders out there are struggling with employees that are… or team members, or coworkers, or fellow doctors who are not performing, not meeting expectations. And the justification is, “Well, I'm having mental health challenges.” What do you do about that, and how do you balance compassion and support for this person with the reality that we have to have expectations to get met? We can't have people just not show up for work again and again. It's not fair to the other team. It's not sustainable. It shakes our whole business. Or, the behaviors that are manifesting are not acceptable behaviors.
I understand that you're struggling, and I can be compassionate about that. At the same time, I still can't have you yelling at the staff when you get stressed. That can't happen. And so I think that's an interesting thing. I'm saying I think there's a big spectrum of this. There is 100% the this person has legitimate mental health struggles and are struggling to meet performance. How do we manage someone who's struggling to meet performance because of mental health challenges?
And then there's the far extreme where there is the one that says this person may have other reasons for not meeting performance, but they're saying it's a mental health struggle because they think that that's going to get them more leniency than if they just said-
Stephanie Goss:
Sure, it's a free pass.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… “I just didn't feel like coming in.” Exactly right. And you'd hate to think that anyone would do that, but it's a big world and I'm certain that there are some of that.
And so people say, “Well, how do you manage these things and navigate these things?” And so I think we'll talk about this in action steps. But I think the headspace is assume good intent, assume that everyone is doing their best, compassion first. And this is all about balance, which means I can believe that you're having mental health struggles and I can be compassionate and empathetic, and at the same time just know that my job is to balance the needs of the individual with the needs of the team and the needs of the clients. And so I can be empathetic and compassionate and still say, “I need to balance these things out. And we have to figure out how to make that happen.” And we'll talk about that when we get into action steps.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, I like it. Do we want to take a break and then dive into the action steps?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, let's do it.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Hey, friends, I just want to jump in here for a quick second and say that I am super, super pumped about all of the awesome things that we have coming down the pipeline in 2023. Now, we haven't announced all of the surprises that we have coming for all of you, but there are lots of great things coming to kick off the year. If you haven't signed up for some of the workshops and events that are happening in the first quarter of 2023, you want to head your little self over to UncharteredVet.com/events, and check out what we've got coming.
If you are a member, all of the workshops are listed there. You can log into your account and sign up for free. If you are not a member, you should check out what's coming and consider a membership for 2023, because you could pay $99 per workshop, but you also could pay $6.99 and sign up for a whole year of registration as a member and then you get access, not only to all of the workshops that we do, but all of the amazing content that happens over in our workplace group and our community. It is so fun, it is lively. It is just jampacked with conversation from the community about what's going on in their practices, how to solve challenges, how to support each other. It is one of my favorite places to spend time. I would love to see you there.
If you need that address one more time, it's Unchartedvet.com/events. Now, back to the podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Let's get in some action steps here.
Stephanie Goss:
Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay, cool. I'm going to start with your favorite thing. Let's talk about what they did, because they did a lot really well. Let's talk about what they did, and let's walk all the way up to where they are. And so, one of the first things that we've got to do to be successful… And I deeply believe you have to learn this the hard way. Every policy that we have probably came from a mistake that we made in the past. And so it takes a while for people to get here.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You're going to love this.
Stephanie Goss:
Are you going to say it?
Dr. Andy Roark:
But we need to have our handbook. What is our attendance policy? What is it?
Stephanie Goss:
What does your handbook say?
Dr. Andy Roark:
And what systems do we have to support people who are having mental health challenges? I know you love it.
Stephanie Goss:
I do. Can I just bask in that for one second?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes, just soak that in. You should have-
Stephanie Goss:
What does your handbook say? Okay, okay. I like it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
What does your handbook say? But that has to be it, right?
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hear me on this, this is how we make the balance happen, is we sit down, not in the moment, not when we're dealing somebody, not when it looks punitive. But we just sit down and say, “Okay, what is our calling out policy?” knowing that life happens and we want to be generous to people, and we want to be supportive of people. I'm not making some Alcatraz calling out policy where if we can't find you then you can be off for the day.
Stephanie Goss:
Right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's not that. But what is the policy here? Because these guys said she's called 30 times. I don't know what the policy is, but it's not 30. That's not where we want to be.
Stephanie Goss:
And I love that. Obviously, I love that you said, “What does the handbook say?” But also I think that that's a good use case to look at and say, “Okay, we feel like there should be some sort of attendance policy, and someone who's called out 30 times feels a little excessive.” Let's look at that. When we think about what is… Okay, if there's 52 weeks in a year and everybody gets vacation and you figure out what is your actual working… How many weeks in a year does your average team member work? It's probably somewhere between 40 and 48 for a lot of people. What does that look like? Look at your own policies and then figure out…
Okay, let's just look at that. What is half of that? What is 50%? When you look at that, even if you just take 52 weeks. I don't know what their vacation policies are, so if I take 52 weeks, half of that is 26. If this person has called out 30 times, that means that they've only been there half of the weeks in the year. That is wildly excessive to me. Clear-cut, no brainer. Anyone could look at that math and say, “This is excessive.” It doesn't feel subjective, it doesn't feel punitive, it just feels excessive. And so it's easy to say, “Okay, if this feels super excessive and we know we want some sort… what does the middle ground look like?” You know?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. There's this exercise I talk about every now and there called Rawls' veil of ignorance. Rawls' veil of ignorance is the idea that if you look at a system, if you didn't get to pick where you were in that system, would you think it was fair? And if the answer is yes, then it's fair. I've always aspired to that. If I was the CEO, would I think that this was a good, fair approach? And if I was the janitor, would I think that this was a good, fair approach? And if I was a doctor, would I think it was a good, fair approach? And if the answer is all the things is, “Yes, I would think it was fair,” then you're probably doing pretty good.
And so I like Rawls' veil of ignorance, especially in this regard, because my goal is to come up with something that works for me, as the business owner, it would work for me if I was one of the technicians on the floor trying to get the work done. Or, if I was the person who was having some challenges and had to call out, I'd be like, “Yep, the system seems fair.”
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so when they sit to make these, I really like Rawls' veil of ignorance because I don't know if I'm going to be the boss, I don't know if I'm going to be the laborer, I don't know if I'm going to be the person who's calling out sick because I'm having a family emergency or nagging health problems for my kid, or whatever. I think that my goal in this would be to say, “I don't know which of those people I would be in this situation, but wherever it was, I would think it was fair.” That doesn't mean I'd be thrilled with it. That doesn't mean that it would solve all of my problems. But I would understand and say, “Yeah, I think this is fair.”
And so when we start talking about these things, I think that's what we talk about. Say, “What's fair to the person who is out? What's fair to the team that is expecting support and not getting it when the person's out? What's fair to me, as the person making the schedule and scheduling the staff? What's fair there?” I think laying that stuff down ahead of time, I think that that's really key. And that's your attendance policy. At what point do they have to start having to have doctor's notes? Where does that happen? What does that do? But we need to lay those things down.
Stephanie Goss:
Sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
The other part is to say when we talk about mental health stuff, I'm not a therapist and you're not a therapist. I am not a mental health professional and that shouldn't be part of my business model, I don't expect to be. However, I do what people to have support when they need it. And so when I'm done setting my attendance policy, I'm going to look at my mental health support options and resources and lay those things in and say, “If people are struggling, if they're having mental health issues, this is how we're going to get them support.” That's not me making it up and pulling it out of my ear as we go along.
It's like, “No, this is what we have, and this is how we're going to support these people.” And basically what I want, ultimately, is for those two things to come together and to make a good support structure to say, “This is our attendance policy and these are the resources that we have.” The expectations are that you leverage these resources and still abide by this policy that was put in place with the idea that some people would go through hard times. You know?
Stephanie Goss:
Right. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
But you can still check those boxes. And when the team comes to me and says, “Hey, Andy, why is Stephanie not here all these times?” I can say, “Hey, she is following our protocols that we have laid down. She has met the requirements to be able to request this time off and do these things. We're supporting her. But I assure you, she is working by the same policies that you would have accessible and available to you if you were in her position.”
And bam, I'm not telling you what it is. I'm not going into resources, or what resources you're using, but I can look at you in the face and say, “She's using the same playbook that is open to you when you face these challenges.”
Stephanie Goss:
It's equitable. Yeah, yeah. I think that's so important. And I think that's the hard part, because… And I will tell you I have done this, I will own this 100%, where as manager, somebody has figured out another loophole. I say that with all the love. And then I'm, “I am going to take my flaming, raging sword of justice and I'm going to update the handbook, because screw this.”
And then it never goes well.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, sure.
Stephanie Goss:
Everybody can see it for what it is. And sometimes that's a good thing, right? Sometimes, from an HR perspective, I can't share information. I can also let the team know, without saying much, “Hey, here's the new policy I need everybody to be aware of.” You know? Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And sometimes that is a tool. That should not be the first tool that you reach for. It's really easy when we're frustrated or we're angry, which is reasonable given the circumstances, that it's easy to reach for that tool first, and it shouldn't be the one that we reach for first. But I love that idea of doing it when you're not… Not punitively, not in the moment. But looking at the policies, looking at the protocols, looking at the support systems, I love that, because then everybody knows what to expect.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And I find that to be true. I talked about the mental health card, and people say, “Well, what do you do when this person can't perform?” And they're pointing to this and say… If we've set up our systems well, then ultimately they're going to get support. And at some point they're going to come to a place where you say, “Hey, you've used up all your away time without a doctor's note and this is where we are,” and they have access to resources and stuff like that. But at some point you have to say, “This is where we're coming down on this issue.”
I tell you what's a nightmare to do, is to say, “Hey, we don't have any policies, but I feel like you've been gone too much and now I'm going to force this issue.” You don't want to have that conversation. The point of laying in these protocols is to have built in systemic boundaries where you can say, “Hey, just so you know, we're coming up on this and we're going to need to figure out what to do about it. You need to be aware that this is what our policy says and where you are in the program.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes, and I love that you said that, because, for me, that is a huge part of the action plan and acceptance here, is the fact that we're doing this now. We're doing this as a look back. This person has now missed 30 call-outs in a year… I'm assuming in a year period.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, sure.
Stephanie Goss:
But whatever period of time. 30 call-outs and now I'm looking at it. And so now I'm like it's not, “Hey, you're coming up on the end of the policy. We get two weeks in a year. You've used a week and a half. Just FYI, I just wanted you to be aware of it.” It's the afterwards. And so it sucks, because in a way, and again, I say this as the manager who has done this, so please, if you're listening, don't take offense to this, you've tied your own hands. Because now you're having to have the conversation way after you should have laid the groundwork and had that framework conversation. Or probably multiple framework conversations and said, “Hey, this is where we're to.”
Now you have no choice but for it to potentially come across as feeling punitive, because no matter what you do at this point, it's reactive, because you're coming at it from a place of, “This has already happened, and now I need this to change,” which is not the place you want to be able to come at it from. You want to be able to come at it, like you said, Andy, from that place of, “Hey, this is how far into it we are, just a heads-up, just an FYI.” Because you're laying that groundwork, because then the conversation becomes easier. “Hey, remember how we had that conversation that you had a week left. You've used up that week, and so we're at that point, I just want to check in. I want to know how you are. How are you feeling? Do you think this is going to be an ongoing problem? Do we need to come up with a new plan? Do we need to talk about FMLA?” What are all of those options? You're doing it ahead of time when you do it the way that you just said.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, this philosophy, this approach that we use at Uncharted, it comes from dealing with clients who are strapped for cash, so clients who come in who don't have money for procedures. Originally, I spent a lot of time working on this. Exam room communication's a passion of mine, it has been for a long, long time. I wrestled with this for years. I can't look at somebody and know what their financial status is. I don't know if you have money or not, and I don't want to guess. It makes me feel gross and to look at someone and go, “Do you think she can afford this?” I don't freaking know. I don't know.
If you say to me, “Oh, that's a lot of money.” I don't know if that's because you don't have the money or if you just are someone who is cheap and is like-
Stephanie Goss:
That's a lot of money.
Dr. Andy Roark:
… “I have the money but I don't want to spend it.” And again, I'm never going to know. The place that makes me happy, where I found comfort is to say, “I've built a system for dealing with clients that doesn't…” I don't care what you have. I'm not going to treat you differently based on how much money I think you have. I'm going to make a system where we bring people in, we do our physical examination, we walk them through the process, we articulate what we are doing, we are open and transparent about our prices, and ultimately we come down to a place where we're going to present estimates and say, “This is what we want to do, and this is how we want to go forward.” We may give people options, or whatever we're going to do. But we walk through.
And again, it's not based on how much money we think you have in your pocket. Everybody gets treated the same as far as how things are laid out and what communications we have. And then ultimately, I don't really care if you have the money or not, I just need you to be open about where you are, and I'm going to be open about where I am. We're going to have resources in place to help you. If you don't have that money, we're going to have payment options, we're going to have lending options, we're going to have whatever else, a way to walk you through this.
But what's not going to happen is you're going to come in and make some vague hints about not having the money to take care of your pet, and then I'm going to throw all the rules out the window and just do everything that I can for you, not paying any attention to my staff and what the practice needs. I'm not throwing all that stuff away. That can't happen. And I see a lot of people do that. And so it really bothered me for years and years, until finally we just drilled in and we're like, “This is how we do the exam room.” And that's it.
If you're interested in that, I've got a team training course called Exam Room Communication Toolkit. It's at DrAndyRoark.com, where I do staff training. But all that stuff is 17 tools, but they all come from this type of approach of being like, “This is how we talk to people, and we work everyone through the same system. And ultimately, if there's a money problem, it comes out and we work through it within healthy boundaries.” And so when we start talking about absenteeism, when we start talking about people having mental health challenges in the profession and practices, and again, it's something I've wrestled with.
I went through a period of significant burnout a couple of years ago. It really, really sucked. My practice was greatly supportive of me. They were wonderful, and I would want to give that to other people. And at the same time, I expect the practice to have healthy boundaries and to take care of itself and to take care of the other employees, and take care of the pets. And that means having some guidelines in place before we get here that say, “I want to be supportive of you, and at the same time, you have some obligations here as well.” Whether it's cash-strapped clients or whether it's employees that are having mental health struggles, I think that that's the healthiest, most compassionate approach for everybody. I really do.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. And I think we're kind of at that point where we have gone past the pre-work. We talked about action steps that we can do in the future, and things that we can do to set ourselves up better for success next time. And at the same time, with this current technician, I think it's time to sit down and have a conversation. I would do it from a place of compassion and a place of care, but I would just say, “Hey, I need to sit down and have a chat with you.” And then I would kind of just lay out, “Hey, okay, here's where we're at.” This is a potential to own some of it on your own, and I found that it softens the blow.
I like to use this as a tool. It doesn't fit right for everybody, but I would 100% say, “Hey, I wasn't on top of this and I didn't realize that we're at the 30 mark, 30 call-outs for the year. That's on me. And now that I recognize it, I need your help because I can't go into the new year with this happening because it doesn't work for the rest of the team. I want to support you.” And again, I want to recruit them into the conversation. And so the way I would probably approach it is to say, “I can see a couple of potential solutions here, but I want to talk through all of them with you because you might have some ideas that I might not have thought of that I want to have on the table. But we've got to address this, because we can't keep going the way we're going.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
I love that so much. I love it. I love it because you owned it. And the more accountability we can accept, the more open a conversation we're going to have. I just think that, “Hey, it's on me that we got to 30.” I love that so much. I think that's excellent. And another thing that I really love in the wording that you used there is it's very future facing. “This is where we are. We're going into 2023, let's talk about what we're going to do differently, or let's talk about what we need to do in the coming year because we need to make some adjustments. And I said it's on me that we got this far this year. We cannot do this again next year, just so you know.”
And so I love that. I love laying it down like that and keeping it positive, and keeping it future facing.
Stephanie Goss:
And I think the other thing too, is to acknowledge that they may be in a situation that they can't control. Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And so it's okay to say, “We may be in a situation where you need to continue to have time off, and that's okay. And here's how we can support you.” It's okay to say to them, “We can support you in the capacity that you're a part-time on-call, or on-call team member.” That could be a potential solution. It doesn't have to be, “We're going to keep you full-time and keep scrambling at the last minute.” It is perfectly okay to take that off the table and to just call a spade a spade and say, “I can't continue to be in the position where we're having to change the schedule last minute and the rest of the team is working short-handed, because it's impacting me on a mental health perspective, it's impacting the team. Short-handedness, it impacts the clients. I need your help to figure out how I can support you and not continue to be in this situation, because I want to do both of those two things.”
It's okay to put some of the accountability and responsibility back on them, because regardless of what they're going through, mental health or not, it is an unrealistic expectation, for any employee to have, to expect that they can show up when they want. That's not how real life works. I think that for a lot of us, we get afraid to be the adult and put the boundaries in place because we're like… For me, it was always like, “I don't want them to not like me. I don't want to be the mean one.” Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Stephanie Goss:
And the reality is, I can't run a business if my team isn't here. And so maybe the answer is I hire more staff, because if I know I'm going to be short-handed, maybe I need to hire more people. That falls on me, not on them. Maybe they need to go to part-time. Maybe they need to be the on-call employee. This is where, for me, it's about the brainstorming. Because I won't know what's possible until we lay all the cards on the table. For me, the best case scenario is for them to be active and engaged in that part of the conversation, and also recognizing that they may be in a place where that's not possible.
If they are really struggling mental health wise, or they are having a challenge, they may not be in a place to contribute to that. I want to create a safe space where they can say, “I don't know. I just know that I need flexibility.” “Okay, then here's what I can do to support that for you. If you need flexibility, here's what I can do to support that.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Cool. I want to hammer on this right here as well and say, remember that this doesn't have to be one meeting. I really like your idea of going in… Because to me, I always feel there's pressure to go in and say, “Well, what can you do? Okay, then here's what we're going to do.” It's like, “I'm sorry, I'm not that smart. I'm not that fast.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yes. Mm-mm. Nope.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I need to gather information and then I need to go away and I need to think about it. I need to think about what they say they can do or what their needs are, and then I need to think about what my needs are and what that looks like, and then I can come back and say, “Hey, this is what we need to do next year.” But it doesn't have to be at one time. Don't be afraid to step away. The other thing is ultimately you can do information gathering, and you are going to need to clearly communicate what you need to this person. Because otherwise it's not fair to not tell them what the realities are. And so you don't have to do that today, but you need to say, “Hey, we're at 30 days, that's on me. We got to do things differently. Let's talk about what you're looking at. Let's talk about what would be realistic expectations for next year. Let's talk about how we're going to move forward. I just need to hear where your heads at and what you think you could do to help me meet these needs.”
If this person needs to go part-time, then you go part-time. They might not like that, and I might not like that, but continuing to do the same thing again and again, and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity.
Stephanie Goss:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
If you just keep going and go, “I don't know, she just keeps up not showing up. I don't know what to do about it,” I think, “Well at some point it's not a surprise anymore, it's your business model.” And so anyway, I think that at some point, we have to say, “Look, this is what I need.” And you have to say what you mean, and you have to mean what you say. At the very beginning I said, “I see where this is going.” We can do all the things that we said, and ultimately this person… We can't make this person show up for work.
Stephanie Goss:
Nope.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Like I said, we can do all the systems in place and everything like that, and we can't make the person show up for work. There are ramifications of this person not showing up for work. It is going to cause you problems to have someone who no-shows again, and again, and again. It's going to cause you real problems to have someone who no-shows again and again, and there don't seem to be any repercussions for that person. That's going to have fallout, and you need to be honest about it, and you need to use what… You've already seen, I'm sure, to forecast what that looks like. And then, my friends, you're going to pick your poison at some point.
You've got three options. You can end this now, you can keep it going as it is and accept the fallout from this behavior continuing, which I would not recommend, or you can try to modify expectations and come to an agreement, knowing that if that agreement does not work, you're going to move to termination. And I think honestly, that's probably where I'd be, is I'd get real honest with this person. I would figure out what I really need. I would think about what a fair attendance policy looks like that accounts for people who have unexpected illnesses or sicknesses or mental health challenges, but it's still fair to them and to the rest of the team, and to me, as the practice owner.
I would put those things in place and say, “Look, this is where we are and this is where we're going, and this is what it's going to look like when we get close to running out of these days, and this is what it's going to look like when we hit those days. And this is what it's going to look like when we go past those days.”
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah. I love that so much. And I will say that for me, like I said, I was this manager at a point in my career, and I wasn't sure of where to start. And if you're like, “What would that even look like?” My suggestion would be even if you're a small business who doesn't… to whom FMLA isn't applicable, I would look at the Family Medical Leave Act. I would look at the standards there and say, “Okay, if I was a business of this size, this is what would be legally be required of me.” That's what FMLA says, is that when I have over a certain number of employees, these are the things that I have to provide for them in terms of leave.
And for a lot of businesses, they choose to have all of the leaves fall under that similar umbrella. There are other specific leaves of absence we have to be able to provide our employees, military service, domestic violence protection, et cetera. But most people look at it under that FMLA umbrella and say, “Okay, if someone was going to take a leave of absence for a physical health thing, I'm going to apply mental health the same way.” I looked at those guidelines and said, “Okay, this is what would be required of me. Could I make this work? Could I not? What pieces of it don't work for me as a small business?” If this really a small practice and their techs… their ability to lean into other support members is significant different in a practice that has four technicians versus a practice that has 100 plus employees and you have a bigger pool to draw from.
And so that's why FMLA is not applicable to everybody. But I would use that as the starting point. And for me it was like, “Okay, I can't give 12 weeks, but I could find a happy medium between what we currently have and 12 weeks.” To say, “This is what we could do.” Maybe it's some combination of intermittent. Looking at those kind of things and using it as a baseline to figure out where do I go from here, that would be my best suggestion.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I completely agree. Yeah, I think that's it. I think that's kind of what I got. I hope that's helpful, as far as just thinking about. I hope he doesn't feel like we're beating up on our writers.
Stephanie Goss:
I hope so.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It's like it's one of those things where when you play the game really, really well, and then you're still like, “And the person still doesn't respond.” I go, “You've done everything right. The problem is, I'm sorry, I don't have a magical next thing for you to do.”
Stephanie Goss:
There's not a magic wand.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think you know exactly what you're looking at, exactly who this is and exactly how they're behaving and what the pattern is. None of this is a surprise. I think you're at the place where there's nothing else to do but make the call, and the call is either, “I'm not doing this any more,” or the call is, “I'm going to put up with this,” or the call is, “I'm going to go to them and say, ‘This is the cahnge that I'm going to require to go forward. And if this change doesn't happen, then we cannot continue on together.'” I think those are your three options. I think I would go for number three.
Stephanie Goss:
Yeah, me too. Have a good week, everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, everybody. Take care of yourselves. We'll see you later on.
Stephanie Goss:
Well, that's wrap on another episode of the podcast. This was so fun. Andy and I always enjoy spending part of our week with you all. We hope you enjoyed it. If you did, and you have an issue going on in your practice, or a question that you would love to hear us answer, or if there is something that you would like to hear us role play, talk through the details of what to say and how to say it on the podcast, please send us a message. You can find the mailbag at UnchartedVet.com/mailbag. Send us a message, whether you want to be anonymous or have a secret codename or not, send us your message and we would love to feature it on an upcoming podcast episode.
Take care, everybody. Have a great week.
