My Boss Oversteps Boundaries

An associate veterinarian who loves their job, is struggling with a practice owner's overbearing management style that pushes the boundaries of work-life balance. The team receives numerous emails and texts on their days off, and the feedback is often negative and micromanaging, creating a stressful work environment. Dr. Andy Roark and practice management super nerd, Stephanie Goss get real vulnerable sharing their own experiences with similar challenges. Together they offer insights into setting boundaries and fostering a positive workplace culture while taking our listeners on another ride to Camp Tough Love. Let's get into this episode…

You can also listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have something that you would love Andy and Stephanie to roleplay on the podcast – a situation where you would love some examples of what someone else would say and how they would say it? If so, send us a message through the mailbag! We want to hear your challenges and would love to feature your scenario on the podcast.

Submit your questions here: unchartedvet.com/mailbag

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Episode Transcript

Stephanie Goss: Hey, everybody, I am Stephanie Goss, and this is another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. This week on the podcast, we're taking a letter from the mailbag from a team member who loves their job, loves their team, loves their practice, and they feel like they have a practice owner who oversteps personal and professional boundaries and really focuses on their the negative. This one's a little in depth. We got a little a little excited, a little heated, maybe a little bit vulnerable as well, as Andy and I both shared some stories from our own personal challenges on the road to becoming a leader. And It was really fun answering this question. Let's get into this.

Dr. Andy Roark: And we are back. It's me, Dr. Andy Roark, and the one and only Stephanie leave a message and I'll call you back Goss. 

Stephanie Goss: That one's so appropriate. I like that one.

Dr. Andy Roark: I thought– I was very proud of that one.

When we did this episode, like, if you haven't picked up, every, every one for the most part ties to the episode that we've got. I– some of them are subtle, some of them are a stretch, but there's always some tie.

Stephanie Goss: Some of them are a stretch. How's it, how's it going Andy Roark?

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, it's great. It's great. I am fired up. Today, tonight, tonight, Stephanie Goss, my triumphant return to improv comedy. I took, I took six months off, and I am glad that I did. I am really glad that I did. I, when six months ago they have, so the comedy group that I'm with, they have seasons, which I think is really nice.

So they have seasons and they have a little like break time in between the seasons. And but it's a, it's a theater and, and they, but they have seasons and I, Realized that I, because in order for anything to get done in my life, it has to be on my calendar. So like, you know this, I live on my calendar and so improv goes on my calendar.

And six months ago, improv shows and practices were no different to me than Uncharted meetings or or visits to,

Stephanie Goss: Right. Work.

Dr. Andy Roark: You know what I mean? It was, they were just blocks on my calendar that I got up in the morning and I was like, Alright, looks like I've got a 7:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m. commitment tonight. And, like, it was, it was, I just, the fun had kind of bled out of it. 

Stephanie Goss: You weren't having fun. Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark: It was just, it wasn't that I was, I wasn't unhappy. But also, I wasn't, I wasn't looking for, if you were like, Are you looking forward to improv tonight? I would, I've not, I would not have yeah, I'm not dreading it, but also, no, it's, it's just a thing that I'm, It's right, because one more thing on top of everything. It's one more thing. Yeah. Again, and I'm blessed to have a job that I really love. So like, my calendar is full of things that I like just fine. And so anyway, but it, the magic was definitely gone. And so I, I thought I was quitting improv. It was actually kind of a little bit challenging for me. But I was just like, I, I just, this isn't doing it for me.

And my friend who runs the theater really encouraged me to take a break. And he was like, just take, just take, you can always come back. And you know what I found in life, Stephanie, is that you can always come back, and like, I did not believe that for a long time. I always thought that if I stopped practicing for a while, I could never come back.

I always thought that if I stopped traveling and speaking, nobody would invite me to their conferences anymore. And I can tell you, after just not doing anything after the pandemic, and starting to pick it back up this year, that's just not true. People will invite you back. And if you have good relationships and you take care of people and you, especially if you communicate like, Hey, I love you.

I just, I need a break from this. And then you, the door's always open to come back. And so same thing with comedy. And you know, I, I wasn't really, I, I had enjoyed having six months off and my friend reached back out to me and says, Hey man, the new season's coming. We've got a team that's getting together.

I think you'd be really, I think you'd have a lot of fun on this team and they, they could, they could use you. And man, lo and behold. 

Stephanie Goss: So, here you go.

Dr. Andy Roark: I was like, you know what? It's funny. We left, we left lunch and I said to him, you know, I did not have getting back into comedy on my bingo card today. I did not, but I, I have been so excited about it ever since that.

And um, and so, yeah, we did. We had a little audition meeting for the theater and I was like, yeah, this is this. I, I like this. Like, I'm, I'm good at this. I like it. I just, I had, I had no idea. I had started to miss it and now I'm like, yeah, this is, it's feeling like opportunity and excitement and not just another thing on my calendar.

So anyway, I think that people should take more breaks. I think people should take more breaks from hobbies. I think people should take, I think you should take breaks from your family. I think if you just want to leave for like six months, they'll take you back. You can just go away if you want. I don't know, that's not a thing that I've seen, but if improv comedy and having a family are anything alike and I think they are, then we should have, first of all we should have family seasons we should just, a grown up should get a, they should get an off season and the kids can just kind of be feral and like raise themselves for a while and then I'll come back in and everybody's gonna be recharged and ready to go.

Stephanie Goss: There is, as a parent, I, like, I want to acknowledge the truth in that, not, not leaving for six months, and I, as a parent, being on all the time, you need a break, you need a break, and, and for a whole million different reasons. Some of us are in positions where we don't get a break or we are on 24/7 and you know, I will say like I, I, I love my kids and to your point, getting to step away and look at, look at it and say, this is amazing.

Like this is why I love them and I do miss them and I'm excited to come back home. Like I think about it that way when we travel and I get asked, you know, do like, I get asked by friends who have kids or friends who have especially new kids are like, is it so hard to be away from them, from them?

And I always felt guilty being the, being the one who was like, No, because everybody else was like, Oh, I miss my kids so much. And I'm like, I'm, I'm a terrible mom. And there's truth in that for me that I am a better parent. I'm more present. I'm more grounded. I can, you know, keep my S together when I just want to lose it so much better when I have had a break and I have been able to be,

you know, me and like. Or like you said, do something that I really enjoy and then come back you know, able to like handle it and that's, I, you know, I really in joking, you know, taking a six month break and like, that's why I love having a village because sometimes you just, you got to take a break.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.

Stephanie Goss: Sometimes you just gotta take a break. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, I think that's true. That's one of, that's one of my knocks on, on pro sal compensation for doctors and like I'm not anti pro sal or anything, but I, but when I was practicing full time, you know, and that was my 100 percent my job, I never took actual vacations. I would always, the most I would do, I would take a, a Friday, maybe a Thursday and a Friday, but basically, and then I would be like, Oh, I got three days off.

I feel good and maybe it's just because I was younger, maybe I felt differently or I don't know. Anyway, I would put that forward to, to, to vets that are out there in practice. Like I know that it's a, it's a lift to really get off. But I think, I think getting away, away from the practice and I don't mean getting away and letting them call you with questions.

Stephanie Goss: Like truly gone.

Dr. Andy Roark: I mean, just not being a vet for two weeks. I think that that might have a significant impact on some people if they were to be able to pull it off. And again, I know that's not easy, but I'm just saying

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, we–

Dr. Andy Roark: I underestimated how much getting away and like really being away would impact me.

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, we have an episode. It's, it's an, it's, I think one of our OG episodes. I think it might've been in our very first season. But, but maybe maybe a little bit further in, but where we talked about ProSal and I think we talked about this, this episode is not about ProSal, but we talked about that and I really firmly believe in, have always like I'm a big fan of ProSell and the reason that I'm a fan is because I always did my calculations and factored in whatever their vacation is because you can't give people time off and then not allow them to take it. And so for me, then it would, their pay formula was basically, based off of if they're going to get four weeks of vacation.

Like you subtract that and then you start the, the piece. So if they want to take more than four weeks, yes, that impacts it. But if I'm going to give them the time, I want them to be able to take it and actually truly walk away because otherwise you're not letting them take that time.

Dr. Andy Roark: Four weeks?! What did you have a practice in Holland? That’s not America, Goss. We don't do that here.

Stephanie Goss: Says, says the man who runs a company with unlimited off.

Dr. Andy Roark: I do have, we do have a limited time off. That is true. 

Stephanie Goss: Anyways so we got, we got a mailbag question that was, that was great. I always love it. When Andy loves to hear how much people love us. I always love it. When people tell us how they listen to the podcast and this one came in and they said that they listen on their way to the clinic to get themselves in a positive and motivated mindset to start my day in their thank you.

And so I, I appreciate that. They were also was fawning over Andy and how amazing the, the, the podcast is, but 

Dr. Andy Roark: I didn't see that in the notes. Did you edit that out? I think you deleted that before you put it into the into the notes. Mm

Stephanie Goss: Anyways this person gave a preface that I think is really important, which is. They love their job. They love the profession. They love patient care and, and their team. And there's a situation going on at their work that they're really struggling with. And, and there was a lot of background information.

We're going to use some of that, I think, as we, as we talk about it. And, I think that it sums up with this person is, is struggling because they have a practice owner. It's a small practice. There's one vet who is the practice owner. It's not a partnership or anything. And that, that is really pushing the boundaries when it comes to work life balance.

So the team gets lots of, for example, the team gets lots of emails or texts on their days off. And, the biggest challenge, I think, is that they are they are really negative in their feedback to the team, and it comes across as micromanaging as well, because what is the focus is on pointing out the flaws.

And so the end result is a team where they feel like they're getting tons of work on their days off and they feel like all of that work is framed very negatively. Whether it's this client didn't, you forgot to call this client back or hey, you know, this, this thing happened and it's because X, Y, Z didn't do their job kind of a thing.

And so this this doctor is like, hey, Hey, what do we do about this? Because I really do love my job and this practice owner is making it miserable because I feel like it was funny. They they said it feels like there's a dark cloud over your shoulder and. ever. You're just waiting to make a mistake and for that mistake to be corrected and pointed out in a way that feels demeaning.

And when I read that it like tugged at my heartstrings because been there and I have been in that position where you have, you feel that way at work and it's a crappy place to be. And so anyways, their, their whole ask was like, Hey, when you, when you love your job, is and this is the work environment,

what do you do about that? Especially if you're in a place of potential influence, like being an associate vet or being a, you know, team leader or whatever.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, this was this really spoke to me. So I want to highlight something before we get into to headspace This person said very clearly, I love my job, the profession, patient care, and the team, and that's important. This is not a toxic relationship, necessarily. Well, there's some toxic parts about it, but this is not something where this person feels beat up or abused, and I, I think that's really important, because I'm gonna go forward under that guise of, there's obviously a lot of good things about this practice and this team.

Let me start by being a little bit vulnerable here and telling a story. I spent my 30s afraid that the wheels were going to fall off of the company that I built and the things that I did. I just, I was motivated by, I was motivated by fear. I was always worried that that there would not be enough resources to support the people that I brought on.

That that, that people would lose interest in what I was doing or, or what our company was doing and things like that. And there was no amount of history that seemed to be able to talk me out of that. Looking back, it was like you were successful again and again and again, and I was always afraid and I don't know if that's just what it means to be in your thirties to to run, you know, just try like afraid that it's going to come apart.

But that's that's how I was. And so how it felt to work for me. Based on interviews with a lot of people who, who were there is I was always blessed to have people who saw the vision and I think they saw that I was in it for the right reasons and they, I think they saw how much I cared about them and how much I cared about the profession and they felt like they were a part of something that mattered and I, and that was authentic.

Like I wanted them to feel that way and that's true because that's how I felt.

Stephanie Goss: Right.

Dr. Andy Roark: But I also think that there was a lot of weight that I put on them because I cared a lot and I worked all the time. You know, it's funny one of my employees back in the day, people would ask her You know, what's, what's the secret?

Why is, why has Andy been successful? And she's like, he never stops working. And like, I like my job and I like to work. And so I, yeah, I, I work a lot and I was always worried. And so what that meant from an employee standpoint is they, I think, I think the people who worked for me cared a lot about me and about what we're doing.

And they didn't want to let me down. And they saw me working all the time and I showed them me working all the time. Like I was very transparent about what I was doing and, and then I would message them, you know, in the night and stuff like that. Not with any, any, and honestly, no, no intention they respond, but I, I wanted to get it off my plate or I wanted to be there if they were available or if they saw it, maybe they could just let me have this answer so that I could keep working at home and things like that.

And so that's, that's how I ran my company and I don't think I, I don't feel like it runs like that really anymore, Stephanie. It's, there's still, I still care a lot and I still work a lot, but I, I, I. I had to come to some realizations that I'm going to talk about in this episode a little bit about kind of why I was behaving that way and what that would look like.

And so I want to start this with great empathy for the business owner, the business leader who's doing these things. And I take the fact that this person enjoys their job to mean to me that they're not a villain, but I suspect that they probably are running kind of like I used to run. And so anyway, that's, this is sort of a personal episode for me, I think, just because I really, I see this person through this letter and I go, yeah, I think I know who you are.

I think I know, know what you are, cause I'm it too. And so anyway, I think, I think the first sort of opening part for me is like, I think. Starting with some empathy for this person is probably the healthiest part of headspace. At least it's the part that I want to start with.

Stephanie Goss: No, I I think

Dr. Andy Roark: You were there for some of it. Do you, did you have that perception?

Stephanie Goss: I, I was, I

Dr. Andy Roark: You were there for the tail end. You were there for the tail end. I got, I got, you helped me get better about running that way, I think. But you were there for some of it.

Stephanie Goss: I can't, I don't know what you're talking about, me opening my mouth and telling you. I'm telling you the truth.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I

Stephanie Goss: No, I, yeah, I mean, I think, so first of all, like, I, I think both of us will probably be a little bit candid because to, to your point, I have experienced I, I have actually experienced both sides of this.

And so I agree with you, like, I think, especially if the person involved in this case is a business owner, I think it is really important from a headspace perspective to ask yourself the like, what stories could I be telling myself here? And it's really easy to immediately lean into like, They're driving me crazy.

They're micro, they're asking me, they're micromanaging me. They're asking me to micromanage everybody else. They're not respecting my boundaries. They're texting me on my day off, all of those things. It's really easy to get into that headspace. And I completely understand why, because I have been that manager who is like, for the love of Pete, if somebody else texts me on my day off, I'm going to lose my mind, right?

I have, I can empathize with the manager here and I can empathize with the business owner, because when you have. what feels like the weight of the world. To your point, Andy, when you have employees that you're taking care of, there is always a little bit of fear. And I would say if you don't have a little bit of healthy fear, if it's always cowboy up, like it's probably not a good way to live either.

It's got to be somewhere in the, in the middle. And to your point, it's really easy to slide into that place of fear and always be working. Always be trying to go harder. Always be trying to make sure that everything is, is happening the way that it's supposed to, because you feel like you are responsible for the people on your team.

And so I think you know, you, you were really vulnerable and candid there with, with speaking to your own experience. And I think it's a really healthy place to start the headspace that just having this conversation really requires the ability to have empathy and try, really try to ask yourself the question of what else could be happening here and try and put yourself in someone else's shoes on both sides.

Because in order for this practice owner to change, they're going to have to understand what that , what the impact of that is on their team, including our writer. And to your point, I was there. And I think that I can say that some of the conversations that you and I had, although exceptionally painful, I think, probably for both of us.

You have to be able to see the other side and you, you know, I could see you working so hard and trying to, trying to impact and grow because I could see that you were worried about all of the team and taking care of everyone and I also could see the impact and the perception as someone who lives on the West Coast and could wake up at 4 a.m. my time where it's like 7am Andy's time to a whole list of messages that felt overwhelming.

And to your point, yeah, as I would like just speaking candidly, because you and I have talked about this before, like, it is overwhelming as a team member to wake up at 4am and be like, Okay, in my head, rational me knows you're three hours ahead, you're just getting a head start, you want to get things off your plate and get moving.

I knew that you didn't expect me to answer, necessarily. And I also knew there was probably a part of you that was hoping I would answer back so could get on with your day. And so I always had, I had this feeling in that period of time, like I had to always be on. And like this, this writer was saying that that feeling of when you're on your day off, like if you don't answer, are they, are they, and everything just piles up, are you going to be in trouble or someone can be angry at you because you didn't do your, do your job when it's not really the way that it is?

You're supposed to do your job, but it, but it feels that way. And so I think the, the ability to have empathy and put yourself in both sets of shoes is really important here.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I don't think people felt like they were going to get in trouble, in my experience. But they did feel like they were letting the team down. And that was, and I didn't realize at the time, I didn't realize how powerful that was. And I didn't necessarily realize how much control over that I had. And so anyway, those are, I can't, I don't, I can apologize, but it's, it wasn't.

It wasn't intentional. I didn't know. And you just, you have to I'm being open about this just because I would love to speed some people through this part of the journey.

Stephanie Goss: Right. Cause it's painful.

Dr. Andy Roark: I had to, I had to wade through it by myself and took a long time. So there's that. The other thing I would say too is I don't think you have to be a business owner for this. I think you just have to be a person who's under pressure.

Stephanie Goss: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark: You just have to care about your job and to be under pressure. And that can lead to these. Okay, cool. So let's get into this. So overstepping boundaries and focusing on the negatives, right? Those are fear based behaviors, as I said from my own story.

Those are fear based behaviors. Why do they reach out to you in the evenings, on the weekends? Why is everything negative about this isn't working, this is broken? So it's fear. So number one is, this is not working. We're making mistakes. We're not doing it. going to make it, whatever that it is, it is those kinds of emotions that, that drive the person to, to reach out.

They are not reaching out because they're megalomaniacs. They're not reaching out because they want to manipulate or control you for the most part. I, that's not anything I've seen. It's not because they're greedy and they want to make more money. It's generally because they're afraid at some level, and it may be, they might not even recognize that they're afraid, but those are fear based behaviors, right?

Catastrophizing and you and I joke about this all time about me living in a box in the woods. And again, those are the things that motivate you to reach out because you're like, Oh my God, we don't have this thing. We don't have this paperwork. This person is upset and I don't have the time to engage with them and they're going to quit.

And they're going to write a one star Google review saying they're ex employee and then the news is going to pick it up and they're to be on CNN and are Clients going to see it, and then they're going to believe that we're monsters, and then we're not going to be able to make our rent, and the bank is going to take my house and kids college funds, and I'm going to get divorced, and I'm going to live in a box by the river. 

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, I was going to say, that's when we know Andy's in his box in the forest.

Dr. Andy Roark: when I'm living in my box in the forest by the river. And that's how I get there, because you weren't available on Wednesday afternoon when Tina was having a meltdown because we canceled bagel morning. That's why, that's why I'm in the box in the woods. And that sounds so ridiculous.

That's classic anxiety behavior of catastrophizing. And so, like, I see it all the time. Okay there's, part of catastrophizing is this idea of the spin up of this has, I have to, and this is where the, the immediate negative feedback comes from is if I don't say something, this going to continue, other people are going to see it, and then they're going to start doing it, and so you feel compelled to say something right now.

And it's negative because you're not like, again, there's no urgency to give positive feedback. There's no urgency to tell someone that they're awesome or they're doing something great. But the idea that they're going to do something bad and other people are going to do it that way, or it's going to have all of these problems associated with it, and it needs to stop right now.

There's urgency on the negativity that's on the positivity. And so you just can't tend to get those things. And then there's also for me, part of it, the last one I'll just say real quick is, you know, as a sort of a busy person, I very much would always worry about forgetting things. And so I'm like, well, I see this.

I'm just going to go ahead and send her a note right now because it's top of mind and I don't want to forget it. And again, that was, egocentric behavior in that I want, I did want to, I wanted to, I didn't need you to respond, but I want it off my plate. But what I didn't really understand, what I think a lot of people don't understand, is sometimes taking something off your plate and putting it on someone else's plate, is putting it on their plate on their day off.

And they're going to see it there, and it's going to rob them of some of their ability to unplug and relax. And again, it took me a while to realize that. You can still take things off of your plate and put them into a Google document that you have on your phone and on your computer that you will reference when you get back into the office, or you're going to put them into Slack and you're going to hit the schedule message button to kick back in when the person is in the office and they'll get the message at that time.

But those were all lessons I learned, but that was the, that was the fear that would drive those behaviors for me.

Stephanie Goss: And I think the last two, well, all of them are, are super valid in the clinic. And I think the last two really for me and my experience in the, in the clinic have significant weight. It's the idea of like, if I don't stop this, right. Now, then something else is going to happen to your, you know, like someone else is going to start doing it, but you know, the, the spinning out, that's the, that's the start of the spin up.

Like you said, I think the last one is the most, the one that is, carries the most guilt in the practice, because let's be real, being in the practice is chaotic. It's crazy. It's busy most of the time. And so for a lot of us, and I say this myself is this was one that I, I'm still guilty of and have to work really consciously to avoid doing, which is I am super busy.

And if I don't say this thing, if I don't write it down, I will forget it. And so I think it's that way in the clinic of like, Oh, and I, cause I always used to wonder why everybody would do like the drive by, like I would be at the front desk and I'd be working and someone would be like, Oh, walking through, Oh yeah, by the way, you know, the, anesthesia machine is broken and we need you to call Patterson and it's like, I'm, can you see that I'm clearly helping a client and am I, am I going to, like, am I going to actually absorb that information?

And so I, and I know there's no mal intent on the part of the person who's telling me they're like literally walking by, they're like, I see you, I'm going to tell you. So, and I think in some ways that is even harder when you're, when you're Not face to face, because like for us and our team, like you said, we can't see each other.

So if someone walks by me in the clinic and sees that I'm talking to a client, it is easier for their brain to process that and be like, Oh, cool. I have to write that down to your point. And I can tell her about it later because she's with a client. You still are going to have people who operate from that place of fear of like, I cannot, I have to get this out because if I don't get it out, I'll forget it.

So they're going to say it. No matter that you're in front of a client or not, but when you work on a team that is remote or you have a hybrid team, I think it's really, really important to acknowledge that when you can't see each other and you don't know what other people are doing, this is the hardest, hardest piece of it is the, I'm just going to say it right now, because if I don't write it down, And the impact of that is that you have no idea what the other person is doing.

You don't know if they're with a client. You don't know if they're working on something. You don't know if they're on the phone, etc. You can't see that. And so I think that that makes it even harder to, to get into the right headspace and stop catastrophizing when you can't see each other.

Let's let's take a break here and let's come back and let's get in some action

Stephanie Goss: Okay. Sounds good.

Hey friends, in just two weeks, me and some of my favorite Uncharted team members, Dr. Andy Roark, Maria Pirita, CVPM and Tyler Grogan, LVT, will be at NAVC's HiVE event in Minneapolis. Now, I am super excited to be presenting a brand new sneak peek at some content that we are dropping late 2024, early 2025, the number one most requested thing that we have been asked for is training around conflict in practice. Whether that is peer to peer conflict, conflict between the front versus the back.

We all know that conflict exists in veterinary medicine and so we have spent some time putting together a brand new certificate on the essentials of conflict management.

 And it's not ready yet , but we are going to do a sneak peek of the content at this event that we are doing in conjunction with our friends at NAVC. So we will be in Minneapolis. It is happening June 15th and June 16th.

And because our friends at NAVC are awesome. They put together a deal where you can go to HiVE for one day and you can pick which day you want to go and then you can spend a day with us at Uncharted getting a sneak peek at the conflict management essentials and doing a whole day on conflict within the team.

So you go to our website at unchartedvet.com/events. You can find the information about conflict management essentials at NAVC HiVE. You can find out all of the details there and there are links that will take you to NAVC's website to let you register. 

There's an option for Uncharted at NAVC HiVE and it will let you register if you want to do the event with us. And this is really, really important because you can't just go to HiVE and then drop into our session. You have to register. So, go to unchartedvet.com/events check out all of the information we've got about the program.

Then head over to NAVC's website using the easy link and find out more, register, and then shout out on social media. Tell us that you're coming to join us. We can't wait to see all of your faces in just two weeks in Minneapolis. And now back to the podcast! 

Dr. Andy Roark: All right, we're back for some action steps and I have action steps for the leader here, the person sending the messages and giving the negative feedback. We're going to Camp Tough Love. yah! 

Dustin Bays: All aboard! Well, it's Camp Tough Love, like drinking dish suds. See the creation of determination. Get ready for a SAFE talk, you might need a stress walk. That's what we do at Camp Tough Love. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Alright, Camp Tough Love. Here we go. 

Stephanie Goss: We’re back again.

Dr. Andy Roark: I need you to, yep if you have the thought, everyone here should care as much as I do. Or they don't care as much as I do. I need you to hear this. Step one action step for you, my friend, is acceptance. Some Pet owners will never care as much about their pet as you do. They just won't. And some employees will no, most employees, all employees, will never care as much about the business as the person who owns it does.

Other people, some of us, live to work, and some of us work to live, and that's not right or wrong, good or bad. 

Stephanie Goss: Right, It’s just different.

Andy Roark: It's who people are, and it's what they want, and some people that you fall in love with will not love you as much as you love them, and that is just how it is. You cannot change other people and honestly, the idea that someone who doesn't own a business is going to care about as much as a person who does, that's, that's ridiculous.

It's just, it's not true. It's never going to happen. And, and even this, like, people who show up and enjoy their job and punch the clock and go home, they're not, that's not bad. That's probably healthy. They, they're not going to care about this as much as you do. Get used to the idea. Get used to it. Accept it, right? These are grown ass people, and they're going to work this job as long as it's good for them, and if it's not good for them, they're going to go somewhere else.

Stephanie Goss: Right. Right. 

Dr. Andy Roark: And if, and if your company goes out of business, you know what's going to happen to them? They're gonna go get a job somewhere else. That's it. That's the honest to God's truth. They will go on, and they won't think about you after a couple of months. I mean, they'll remember, but yeah.

Stephanie Goss: And as, as an owner, your brain tells you, if I go out of the, if I go out of business, if we don't, if everybody doesn't work as hard as I am and we go out of the business, it will be the end of the world. And I think the acceptance piece as the owner and the leader is to recognize, it won't be the end of the world. Like, you can go out of business and then still go and be a veterinarian and be a successful veterinarian. You might even own your own practice again after failing the first time. Like, failure is a part of life and that acceptance is really, really important.

Dr. Andy Roark: Absolutely. The best quote on this, the one that has given me comfort many times is this quote from Charlie Munger. He's a Warren Buffett's business partner. And Charlie Munger says, he says, any business that cannot withstand a bit of mismanagement is no business at all. And what that says to me is if your business cannot handle some bumps in the road and make it until the morning your business was already going under. Like that's that is if that makes the difference you were already toast. You are never going to make it and again that may sound ridiculous But that is how I that is how I saw it is andy if your business can't stand up overnight Without you harassing people, then you did not build a business that was strong enough to survive anyway.

And I, I don't know if that helps other people, but that was a big dose of acceptance for me. And I just decided that was true. And so if you can't let people be off, then your business has already failed. And if you can't hit your numbers without sending people text messages after they've clocked out and gone home, then you don't deserve to hit your numbers. Like that's it. You don't, and you're not going to. And if you do make it, it's not going to be worth it. Cause you're going to damage those relationships and stuff. And so I just had to come to the hard realization that I have to make my business work and run my business and manage my people during the hours that they're clocked in.

And that is a, like that is playing on hard mode compared to these people who are at my beck and call 24/7/365. But that's real life and that's part of being the type of person you want to work for is playing with those restrictions on yourself. And again, I'm not trying to shade entrepreneurs because again, I can say this now with a team of you know, eight ten people and, and, and we've got something that runs pretty darn well and we've figured a lot of things out.

Boy, back at the beginning, we ran real hard because we had to and so I'm not trying to shade people early on and maybe that startup mode, but that's not a sustainable way to live and continue to work in the long term. And so big Camp Tough Love moment is acceptance is key. Your business better be able to survive without you pinging people after they've gone home. And it better be able to survive with people, key people, taking days off. And if it can't, it's, your business isn't going to make it anyway. And you should just accept it and go find something else to do. And again, like, that's tough love, but that's, that's true. And so get it through your head. And everybody's gonna be a lot happier.

Now, that does not mean that you're gonna just throw up your hands. And it doesn't mean that you can't work when other people are clocked out and not working. It doesn't mean any of those things. It means you have to figure out how to run a business that involves you in engaging with your people when they're on the clock.

You need to figure it out. And I just, I, I, my tolerance for, People who continue to message their people through the weekends. And so it's gotten lower and lower as I've gotten older. And again, I used to be, and that's why I feel comfortable saying this because I was the worst. I was a bad offender and now I can speak inside. I've been there. I see it. I know why you're doing it. You got to stop. 

Stephanie Goss: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. And, and on the flip side, I think I can, I ha, I ha, like I said in the beginning, I have felt but cause I've been on both sides of the equation and here I think I can speak to the manager's perspective. Like I have absolutely been that manager to your point, Andy, who loves their job and loves their team.

And so I have absolutely convinced myself that if I don't. If I don't answer this text, if I don't answer this email, that it will be the end of the world. And I think your point about, about the Camp Tough love and recognizing that some people will care and some people will not, that acceptance is, is really, really important because you cannot, what you will do if you allow yourself to not have boundaries, and if you allow other people to not have boundaries, enforce their lack of boundaries on you, where you will wind up is burnt out very quickly.

Because I did that. I like, that was, that was me. It was like, I have to answer. It doesn't matter if it's 2am. It doesn't matter if it's, you know, my day off. It doesn't matter if I'm, if I'm doing something with the kids, I have to, it's my job as the leader of the practice to take care of all of these things.

You know what? I'm not gonna be able to do my job if I can't show up tomorrow. And I say this openly and candidly as a. You know, I, I have been in long term recovery and so I can say this jokingly, but I am a workaholic as well. That is part of my addiction. That is part of my addiction cycle. And I have to work really consciously to not be that way.

To your point, Andy, now it's not because I feel like I have to, it's because I love my job and it's really, you know, it's like, it's really easy to be like, I love who we, I love our clients. I love what we do. It's really easy to be involved 24/7 because I love it. And that is my, that is my challenge as a workaholic.

Now I'm doing it, not because I'm afraid I'm going to, you know, not do my job or someone else is going to perceive me as not doing my job. If I don't do it more, Because I love it and I still have to have boundaries because you know what, I was that manager who worked myself into a place of burnout. And I can tell you now that my kids are teenagers.

I regret the hell out of missing their, basically their infancy and toddler dumb, because I, Worked myself into a place where I was convinced the world would end if I didn't jump whenever someone needed me and I missed so much of what I wanted out of that part in their life and it's, you know, your point is that the cliches are are true.

It is totally true. Everybody told me like, Oh, you'll blink and this will go by so fast. And now looking back at it, like, I do have regrets. And so when we talk about this and we talk about boundaries you know, I've had a lot of people say to me, and I know you have had this experience as well. Like, I really appreciate how open and, and honest you guys are about talking about some of these things.

And I think it's important because nobody, nobody talked about it. And I remember the first time someone told me like. I regret that period of my life. And, and so I'm working to make it different. And that unlocks something for me as a manager, because I, I like you is, you know, I regret a lot of those things that I did in my younger phase.

And so part of it for me now is like, in order to break the stigma, just talk about it. You know, we have to talk about the fears to your point. You have to be open as a business owner and talk about how it feels because it is scary to feel like you have the weight of your team on your, on your back. And it's the same for a manager feeling like, Hey, I, I want to take care of my family.

I want to be there. I want to be able to be a person. I want to be able to have work life balance. And I also really love my job and I want to take care of my team and I want them to think that I care about them. And if I miss this phone call, are they going to think that? That place of anxiety is a, is a really easy place to get to.

And I agree with you. Like the Camp Tough love piece is you gotta, you gotta accept it. You gotta have boundaries. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Whenever we talk about boundaries, cause I, cause I, I'm on board with you. I just want to be really clear about this. Whenever we talk about boundaries, to me there's two pieces. There's personal boundaries, and there's practice boundaries. And I think sometimes we screw employees over by saying, you should have better personal boundaries.

The reality is, no, your practice should protect you from having work pouring into your personal life and at the same time, at some point, again, when you're, when you're a workaholic you can't fault the practice if you're calling in asking people. How's everything going? Everything okay there? If you're texting people on your day off, then you're the one who has to have a boundary, but it's got to be both And so I think that's gonna be sort of my tough love for the manager. So my action steps for the manager.

The first thing I would say is, you know I tell you this whole story so that you might view this person with kindness and say okay I get I get it. I see them for what they are. I, I like to imagine people as, as 11 year old selves, like, you know, like middle school kids. If you imagine this person as an 11 year old texting, calling after dark, pointing out what's wrong, it makes it a little bit easier to just kind of, I don't know, kind of, kind of chuckle at it or recognize the behavior for what they are because we're all, we're all kids just masquerading.

And so these fear behaviors of. You know, telling people what to do and, and, and calling people, it's, it's all, it's all the, the, the inner child that's afraid is kind of doing it. If it, if, I don't know, that helps me to sort of see people a little bit more clearly. Remember, go in, go in for your safe conversation with your boss, right?

Can you, don't go in when you're triggered. Sit next to them, smile, assume good intent. How have they been set up to fail? What, here's my fault. What have I not communicated as far as my boundaries? Like, what should they not know about, about our communication style? And then what's the end result? Which is, what is an acceptable volume of communication to you? Under what circumstances is it acceptable for the boss to contact you? And maybe it's none. Probably it's we're probably not all or none, you know, it's probably there's probably some middle ground kind of there. But again, it really I'm not trying to there's no right or wrong. It's up to interpretation, but it's where you are, but get ready for that safe conversation. I think you need to be honest and kind with your feedback.

And so kind is not you're a monster. You're ruining my life But it's hey, remember remember our you know, our eye statements I feel this way. I, you know, I'm concerned that I'm going to burn out, and I can't, I won't be able to keep doing this, and that's a real concern that I have, and I think you should be honest about that, because if you don't give any indication that you're internalizing this, that it's affecting you this way, she's not going to know.

She, I mean, she can't, she should know, but she, she doesn't, and so if you don't communicate that, then she doesn't have the information she needs to change her behaviors, you know? 

Stephanie Goss: Yes. I think it's important that, that they understand the impact that it has on you, on the team, et cetera. Like how, whatever it is that you're talking about, they need to understand the impact. And it's really important when we talk about impact that it not be like you're pointing the finger or blaming them because that immediately makes someone defensive.

Right. So your point about, you know, when using the I statements and saying like, when you called me on your day off. This is, this is how I, you know, felt like I had to respond or this is how it made me feel, but not when you called me on my day off, it ruined my entire weekend, right? That's immediately going to put someone on the defensive.

That may be the case. You may have felt like your whole weekend was ruined. And if you lead with that, you will immediately derail any of the safe steps that you walked yourself through to be able to have that conversation with them because that person is immediately going to be on the defensive.

Dr. Andy Roark: And then the professional tool that we're going to reach for right here is the old Medical Director, Practice Manager, Ways of Working Tool. And so the Ways of Working Tool is the agreement that we have about how we're going to treat each other and how we're going to communicate. How do you like to be, how do you like to receive feedback?

When do you like to receive feedback? How do you want to have communications handled when you're not in the office? Like what works for you. Let's talk about how we want to be communicated with and and figure out, you know, what, what is going to work for us, but it's starting to have that open conversation is transitioning from this is how I'm feeling.

This is what my concerns are about the future to I would like to talk about communication strategies that are going to work for you. That are going to meet your needs and also that are going to meet my needs. And this owner, one of the things that I will say, if you were a manager of other people and your go to strategy is to message them when you have thoughts, instead of to collect your thoughts in a place that you'll be able to find them, you need to change up what you're doing.

And so one of the things I would recommend for this manager is to say in this ways of working conversation, let's go ahead and organize a standing meeting. So that you know that you and I are going to have some face time every week and if something is not absolutely burning on fire needs to be addressed right now, I'm going to ask that you add it to the agenda for that meeting and then we'll talk about it there and it's amazing.

So I mentioned early on for me, I would message people because I didn't want to forget what I was going to say. And what happened is I set up a nice little, I use Notion, but you can use Google Docs, you can use whatever. I set up a nice little Notion page with all of my team members, and when I have that thought, instead of going to Slack or text messaging, I go to Notion and I press their little face picture, and then I jot down what I was going to say, and I know that when we get together, I will have a list of those things, and it will not get forgotten.

And then I can go on with my day. But those are the types of communication tools that both of you should have. And so again, I would, I would frame this as it going both ways. I'm not going to message you on your day off because you need to unplug. And so I'm going to take these things and I'm going to add them to the agenda.

And if you want to know what's on the agenda, maybe it's a shared Google Doc, you can see what's there. Or you can ask me when you get back in the building and I'll tell you what's on the agenda. But, I'm going to take these things and save them until our meeting and you're going to take your things and save them to the meeting. And then we're going to have a really good, very action oriented conversation. And we're going to stop messaging ourselves all the time.

Stephanie Goss: And I think that this is. It's vitally important for people who are in positions of leadership. And it's usually the first thing that we skip. I think part of it is recognizing for how many of us have actually sat down with our boss or with our partner in the practice and said, what hours are we going to work?

And, and I think that it's vitally important for so many reasons, and the biggest one is just because you are invested in the practice, whether you are a manager, whether you are an owner, whether you're a medical director, if you are a leader, it does not mean that you work 24/7. I, like, I just have to put that down.

I think we put the expectation upon ourselves a lot as leaders in practice, particularly if you've been a practice owner. Being a leader means that we have to be able to handle whatever the practice is going to throw at us whenever it gets thrown at us because That's the role. That's bullshit. That's not the role.

That is a made up story that we have told ourselves in our head. Now, it may be a part of your job and I can hear people already being like, well, but I have to be on call. That's part of my job. Okay. On call is different because on call has a beginning time and an end time. You're not endlessly on call forever, 24/7.

And if you are, Like, that is not a sustainable lifestyle. I would advise you to, to think hard about that. I think that we automatically put that, that on ourselves. I did. I was like, well, I'm, I'm the manager, I'm responsible. And so of course, if there's an emergency at 2am, I should get a phone call.

You know what? It took me years to be able to really actually look at that in a healthy way and have the caught to your point, actually talk about it with my practice owners who, who literally, this was life changing for me, looked at me and said, No, if the fire alarm goes off at 2 a. m. and we had someone overnight in the building, or someone's overnight in the building, and they looked at me and they said, if the fire alarm goes off at 2 a.m., what the hell are you going to do about it?

I want them to call 911 and get the fire department to come. And that, it sounds so crazy to me now because it is so simple, but that was life changing for me to recognize I had never actually asked them. What the expectation was for me as a leader in terms of the communication.

And so to your point, if you have not actually sat down and had that conversation and there's tons of resources, I'll put some in the show notes that you can find online. Just, just Google like, ways of working or how do we work together? Working contract. You'll see so many questions that you can answer as a group to ask those questions of like, how are we going to communicate on our days off?

What are the way that we are going to agree to talk to each other? To your point, Andy, are we going to use an agenda and where is it going to live? And how do we both have access to it? All of those kinds of things are really, really important. And if you're on either side of the equation and you think that your position of leadership means that you have to be available 24/7, stop and have the conversation and ask the question because it is.

It can be absolutely life changing and for two reasons, because if the answer is, I expect you to be on call 24/7, then you have communicated it. You have been able to receive it. And then you as an employee or as an owner have a choice of what to do with that information. But if you don't have the conversation, you don't have the ability to do anything with it.

Dr. Andy Roark: That's exactly right. And I think some people are afraid of the answer they're going to get. They don't want to, no, they want to keep kidding themselves. That, oh, they don't really expect me to be available all the time. Yes, they do. I mean, maybe. I don't know. Hopefully they don't, but maybe they do. And, You know, we've had feedback from managers before that have been like, Oh, we have a group of partners and they all text me all the time. I've asked them to stop and they won't stop. And I'm like, well, they have told you what this job is going to be, and you have a couple options. You can go back and tell them how much it's going to cost for them to pay you, for you to do this job in the way they want it done.

Or, you can leave. Or, you know, you can do whatever. But, but once they told you what they are. But some people don't really want to, they don't want to believe it, and so they're afraid to ask. And so, nope. You can make that choice too. I, I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to hear about it. Eyes wide open, clear communication, this is what I need, what can I expect, and again, people are going to fail, like I said, we're starting with, we're starting with an open heart and saying, I see people are trying at some point, you're going to have to pick your poison, that's where every episode ends with, and pick your poison. And that's, that's where we're

Stephanie Goss: Well, because, because they ended their letter with, is this, like, do I just cut and run? Like, am I, is picking my poison the option that I might just have to leave my practice because I can't make another person change?

Dr. Andy Roark: Sure, I mean, and again, it's, it comes back around to how much do you enjoy your job? Cause they all said, I love my job. And I'm like, well, if you love your job. Then that's worth a lot, you know? And here's the other thing, too. Is, are we gonna flip a switch and have this problem go away? Probably not.

But we can wrestle it back. Maybe. I mean, I hope we can. But we can wrestle it back. And so, you're probably gonna still get some negative feedback. And you're probably still gonna get, you know, some text messages every now and then. But if you get half as much as you get now, would you feel differently?

Would that be enough? And maybe it would be, maybe it wouldn't be, I don't know. But at least, I mean, it's worth communicating where you're at. And then you're empowering the other person to say, well, she says she's gonna leave if this keeps going because she's gonna burn out. I have a choice to make. And the sad thing is they might not make the choice you want them to make.

They might be like, well, I'm gonna do it because I can't stop. And that's. It's funny, a lot of times we make those choices, and they're just sad. Like, they're sad because you wish people would be different than they are. But sometimes, again, like in my case, I heard it, and I tried, and I worked on it, and I'm not perfect, but I've come a whole heck of a long way. That's it. The last part, I'll just throw this in, and then we'll be done, but the last thing I would sort of say in this sort of Ways of Working, you know, conversation, two things real quick. I would, I would try to make sure you understand what the goals of the practice are. Which is, do you understand what the goals of the practice are?

Do you understand what the practice values are? Because if you understand what the goals of the practice are and the practice values are, you should be able to work autonomously. You should be able to make decisions. You know, like this, the, the owner should be able to go away. And if you know what success, what a successful day looks like, and they're like, but they're, well, you know, this thing didn't get done and you're like, but we, as we said, the most important thing is how the practice performed on that day and how the employees were treated and these other metrics. These metrics were all hit. We are fine. We will deal with these other things later, but you at least have equal footing.

If you don't know what's important or what the other person sees is important, then everything is important. And you're constantly getting text messages and you don't have an ability to push back and say, our primary objectives were met. This is something that we can handle when I get back in the office.

I will take care of it, thank you, and then be done, but, but that, it gives you that extra leverage, and the last thing is, after you've done these things, and you've talked about what expectations are, and how we're going to communicate, the last thing then, I think you go to what Stephanie said earlier, at some point, you have to set your own boundaries, and you need to compartmentalize, and so think about just the basic standard stuff I took slack off my phone, And I own the business and I took it off my phone because I'll be on it all the time.

And what I found is there's a barrier for me walking to the computer and firing it up and doing the thing. And usually, and now I still have my notes app and my notion page on my phone so I can easily make a note to myself. I can write it down, so I have that. But I just made that barrier, and then the other thing is, I don't check Slack, because it's not on my phone, and so if my computer's not there, I don't look.

And that works fine for me. If you have a business email address, maybe you're going to unhook that from your phone email app, so you're not checking your business email. And again, there's just a bunch of stuff like that that you can kind of do to give some boundaries and some barriers. And you're like, oh, she's going to go all around them and just text me.

Maybe she will, maybe she won't. It's not, it's not. There's a question of degrees to some point of how connected do you want to be? How accessible are you? So anyway, again, you're gonna have to go through this process. I think you have a good position Communicate with this person where you're at. They're gonna ultimately make some choices and you are going to listen. You're gonna give them some time to try to make these choices. Hopefully they will continue on in a good open communication style and then and then you're you're finally going to decide Is this good enough? To keep going forward or is it not and you're gonna make the call, but that's I think that's how this goes down.

Stephanie Goss: And I think it's the same too. I mean, we talked a lot about the work life balance and the call, getting calls on your day off and that kind of thing. And I think the other half of this you know, a letter to us was about the negativity focus. And I think that it's really important to say. The action steps are really no different.

You have to, you have to talk about it, and you have to talk about how it makes you feel, and you can talk about how it impacts the rest of the team as well. So this person loves their job. They love, they love their team, and it hurts them to see everybody feeling like they're getting only negative feedback and they're not hearing things positive.

And so, you know, your steps were like, you can't be triggered. You have to have the safe conversation. You have to be con, kind, and honest in your feedback. That goes for when you get calls on your day off, this, the same way it goes for, Hey, you know, yesterday when I made this mistake, and this is how you told me about the mistake and you give them one example, you don't have to give them a hundred, but you're giving them one recent example and say, this is how I, And I respect you and I know that you care about me and I know that you care about the practice.

And this made me feel really bad about myself. And I see that I know the impact that that had on me. And I see a similar impact in interactions that you have with the rest of the team. And I want to help change that, right? You can talk to them about what you're seeing, how it's affecting you, how it's affecting their team.

And then ask them for your help. And that's why I'm so glad that you said, I truly believe that people can change. And there are people that we work with where it is who they are. And for most people, you can change. It requires time, it requires support, and it requires patience. And I would say if your practice owner has been this way for a really, really long time Andy Roark, if they've been doing this for their 30s, and then you enter the picture, that's not gonna change overnight.

And I can tell you now, after Andy and I working together for, you know, seven and a half years, Now I can say, okay, I need you to get out of your box in the woods and XYZ is going right and Andy can now recognize that, not be upset that I called him out on the fact that he's spiraling and is in his box in the woods and go, okay, I can take a deep breath like that.

That can be the hint. And it took us a long time to get there. It's going to be up. It's going to be down and you have to recognize that because it's the same as training any other animal. It takes time and it takes patience and it's the same for us. And so I would say. You know, if you have to be able to talk about it, and sometimes for some people that's really, really hard.

 And you might have to write down what you want to talk about. You might have to practice it. But if you don't say something, if you don't ask the questions, you're never actually going to know the answer. You're just going to be assuming what the answer is. And you know what they say about assuming. That's all I'm going to say. So leave it there. Yeah,

Dr. Andy Roark: All right. Good deal, all right. Thanks Steph I feel good about this.

Stephanie Goss: Yeah, this was fun. Take care, everybody. Have a great week.

Dr. Andy Roark: Thanks everybody!

Stephanie Goss: And that's a wrap on another episode of the Uncharted Podcast. Thanks for joining us and spending your week with us. If you enjoyed this week's episode, head over to wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. It's the best way to let us know that you love listening. We'll see you next time.